Ep. 4 - Silent Pressure: What Caregivers Rarely Say Out Loud

Caregiving can look calm on the outside and still feel like turbulence on the inside. We sit down with Charlotte Bayala and Hope Cancer Resources case manager Kaitlyn Voss to tell the truth about cancer caregiving: the roller coaster stretches of normal life, the steep climbs into scan-related fear, and the quiet moments where you realize you’re carrying more than anyone can see.

We talk about what caregivers rarely say out loud, including exhaustion, loneliness, anticipatory grief, and the shame that shows up when you feel burnt out even though you’re not the one with the diagnosis. Charlotte shares what helped her after years of caregiving, from shrinking her circle to the people who can truly hold space, to learning that “no” is a complete sentence when someone brings unhelpful advice or makes your news about their feelings. Caitlin adds what she sees every day, including common caregiver burnout signs and why validation can be the first step toward real support.

You’ll also hear what meaningful support actually looks like, not vague offers, but specific help like rides, grocery runs, childcare, sitting in the waiting room, or even a well-timed meme that keeps connection alive without demanding energy. We highlight caregiver resources, counseling, and emotional support options that give caregivers a safe place to process and breathe.

If you’re caring for someone with cancer or you love someone who is, press play, share this with a friend, and subscribe for more. After you listen, tell us, what kind of support would make the biggest difference for you right now?

Transcript

Welcome To Hope Unscripted

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Hey there and welcome to Hope Unscripted, a podcast of Hope Cancer Resources. Here we're having real conversations about cancer from prevention and education to support resources and the stories that remind us that we are not alone. And we're your host. I'm Jamie Dietrich. And I'm Brittany Harmon, and we're so glad you're here. Now let's talk about hope, healing, and the journey unscripted. Welcome back to part two of Hope Unscripted. Today we're joined with Charlotte Biala and Caitlin Voss, who is our case manager at Hope Cancer Resources. We're honored to have them here and to continue the conversation with Charlotte. Last episode, we talked about scanxiety. And this time we're going to be talking about caregivers and how we can better support our caregivers. So, Charlotte and Caitlin, welcome. We're so glad you're here. So we ended up here for sure. Yeah. Charlotte, like she said last time we were talking about the ski anxiety, but and you also shared that holding everything together while running on empty as a caregiver. Yeah. And when you think about caregiving, what does that look like for your daily life right now? Um caregiving for me is like riding one of those old roller coasters where you're happy when you're in that flat area. And then you can see the big hill coming up. And then you kind of like hold on until you get to the top of it. And then you fall down the other side. And then hopefully it's flat again. Because it's almost like turbulence on an airplane. Like the pilot tells you at some point there will be turbulence, but you just don't know when. And so the option is to be stressed out the whole entire time, anticipating that turbulence. And then, or just sitting back and relaxing and saying, I'll we'll deal with it when it shows up. Um, because caregiving for my husband, you know, his care goes that anxiety happens every three to six months, right? Depending on um when he needs to be seen and then what happens after. And so we do kind of live what I would think is a normal life, but I know it's not. Yeah. Because there are things that will happen. Like maybe he doesn't feel well. So automatically then caregiver mode gets switched into high gear, right? Um, where then a normal couple with people who don't have any diseases, you know, they get a cold. And you're like, all right, you're being melodramatic. Like a man flu. Exactly. Well, Caitlin, I want to take a minute and let you introduce yourself. You do a lot of things at Hope Cancer Resources and you work with cancer patients and caregivers. Um, tell us a little bit about your job and who will you work with and what that looks like on a day-to-day for you. Yeah. So I get to work with patients directly, whether over the phone or um in person with them when they come into our office and um get to see a wide variety of patients and their family dynamics and relationships and lots of caregivers. And um, I would say I see caregivers just as much as I see patients because they're the advocate for them so many times. Um, and so I get to interact with them on a daily basis. Amazing. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:30

Yeah.

What Caregivers Rarely Say

SPEAKER_00 3:31

I love that. Um, what do caregivers not say out loud when they come to see you? Like, can you feel that pressure when they do come in? Yeah, I think a lot of times you can see the pressure to hold it all together and to not say that they're scared or that it's exhausting or that they're already grieving what might be to come in the future, or even the loss of security and normalcy that they're already experiencing with the introduction of a cancer diagnosis. And so you can definitely read that on them a lot of the time. For sure. Charlotte, is that something that resonates pretty deeply? Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean, those are definitely the the big ones. I mean, the only I think I would add um acknowledging how lonely they feel, even though they're surrounded by people that love them. For sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:17

Yeah.

Burnout Signs And Valid Feelings

SPEAKER_00 4:18

And that's hard to talk about, right? A lot of the things that they don't talk about is because the vulnerability that it takes. And then also if they're in an appointment with their person, right? And then they're like, well, this is for them. Yeah. Right. Do you feel like caregivers don't get the opportunity to fall apart? Like, is that something that feels heavy? Um, yeah, no. I don't think they feel like they can or that they're willing to try, right? Because then what happens when that happens? Right. Who's gonna, if they don't feel supported, who's gonna support them when they're finally just being the human that they are and showing their emotions and feelings and breaking down? And then who takes care of things like there's the fear, right? Like, so if I, if I let it go and I break down, who's gonna put me back together again? Um, and if you were to break down and there wasn't anyone to put you back together again, that just magnifies, you know, the loneliness of caregiving. And I think most times people don't want to be vulnerable and emotional without kind of a guarantee that there's gonna be someone to receive that. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. So Caitlin, that's probably something you deal with on a day-to-day basis of recognizing that maybe overwhelming feeling or potential burnout. I mean, I don't know if that's an appropriate term for it, but um, what are some signs that you see in someone that you can recognize and and then how do you help them? I think um just with caregiving in general, and you can speak to this, of course, is the tension of wanting to be there to support the person that you're supporting, and then the tension of you have your own daily responsibilities and feeling that burnout at times. Um, and I think some things that can come up as, you know, starting to feel negative towards the role of caregiving or feeling isolated, like you said, or just feeling like an overwhelming exhaustion and that isn't just a momentary thing, but an ongoing exhaustion. Do you think that sounds fair? Yeah. Yeah. And I think to add to that is understanding that all of those feelings are valid, absolutely. Right. Because I think that when we talk about the way people experience burnout is especially with caregivers, they're like, but I don't want to share that, right? Because then that makes me a bad person. How could I be burnt out when I'm not the one that's sick? Or how can I relate that to someone? But if you know this is normal, right? And you can then feel that what you're feeling is valid, then it kind of maybe depending on who you have as your support, gives you the opportunity to venture out to actually acknowledge it and to talk to someone about it. Yeah, because I think without that safety net, there can be a lot of shame around, well, why would I be feeling burnt out about taking care of the person I really love the most in my life? Um, so being able to acknowledge those feelings head on, I think is really important. So shame and guilt. And I mean, you're right, even you might feel some resentment at some point. And oh yeah, and you feel guilty about you really feel resentment often. Yeah. I think there's a lot of things where that resentment shows up. And it's understanding that it's not wrong, that that's just you understanding what you have to come into an idea of understanding what the role is, right, of caregiving. And not everyone is kind of helped to understand that they've changed as a person. And so if your happiness is still with the benchmarks that you have before caregiving, then you're always going to be disappointed. And then resentment is a lot easier. But oftentimes, just someone always coming to ask, how is your loved one doing? And then you start to realize no one is asking me how I am. No one gator. That's resentment, right? Like that's where that shows up, usually when you're first become a caregiver. And understanding that that is a normal feeling to feel, and that doesn't make you a bad person is important for people so that they can see it and then be able to talk about it without feeling the shame and the guilt for feeling it, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:23

Yeah.

Naming Needs And Hidden Grief

SPEAKER_00 8:23

Cause it almost feels more natural, maybe for the patient or the one being cared for to recognize that their whole life has shifted without recognizing that likely their whole support system and especially the main caregiver for them, their whole life has shifted as well. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Charlotte, in our first episode, you shared that your husband was diagnosed 12 years ago. And so you've been a caregiver for a long time. Yeah. And so navigating that early on to kind of forward to today, what are some of the ways that you I hate to say help the people around you because you're already helping so much. What are some of the ways that you adjusted, shifted, or um encouraged those around you to really kind of get in line with what you need or to pay attention to the fact that you have needs too? Yes, you know, like yes, you're you're telling them how your husband is, but then, you know, you you've got to be okay too. Right. Like what was the navigation around that? Yeah, in the beginning it was hard because I didn't realize, and I don't think a lot of us do, that as soon as you become a caregiver, the people that you maybe talk to all the time, friends and family, like they aren't brought along that that that kind of path, right? And so you start to want to have these conversations with people that maybe you talk to every day, right? And they're uncomfortable with those conversations because they include things that are scary, especially if cancer is involved. Because automatically, if you don't have a firsthand experience with cancer, like, oh, this person's gonna die, this makes me uncomfortable. How can I support this person? Right. And so what I started to do was I first had to realize that I I was, I had the need for connection as a caregiver to a person who wasn't a caregiver, right? 12 years ago, there weren't a lot, there weren't Facebook support groups, like the things that are available now are a lot more than when I first started. And um, so it was really like the friends and family that I had in my life at that time. Um and so what I had to learn to do was first, I'm changed and I have these needs that I didn't need before. And so I would say to like a best friend, I'd say, look, I just need to talk about this and and I don't need for you to fix it. I just need to hear myself say the things that I need to say. Um but I feel also like that was really one of the reasons why I started the podcast is I didn't realize that I was processing as I, but as soon as I started writing the episodes, I was like, oh wait, this is something I haven't completely felt through.

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:11

Right. And so I think it's if you can understand that there is something that you need, oftentimes it's first allowing yourself to have that need, right? To have that permission that I need someone to talk to or I need to kind of like feel through this feeling that I have that I don't like and I don't, I don't normally have. Grief does like grief shows up fast, right? And so if you don't have any experience with grief, like you don't necessarily understand that's what you're going through because this is not grief the way that you see it, right? This is grief of like losing the person that you used to be, the person that you wanted to be, the life that you had. Like there's so much grief, grief for things that haven't even happened yet, right? And so I think for me, it was slowly understanding every time I came up to this thing that I had to try to name and understand. Then the people that were closest to me, that I didn't have to use a lot of emotional bandwidth to explain to their so my circle was very small because I didn't have that energy for something big, yeah, right. But they also bringing people in that you know that are gonna be helpful, right? Um because I am not their therapist, right?

unknown 12:32

Yeah.

Self Care Is Not Selfish

Free Counseling And Support Options

What Meaningful Support Looks Like

SPEAKER_00 12:33

Well, and then I feel like knowing that that's not selfish. I feel like there's some people, and I would be guilty of this. It's hard for me to want to take care of myself with something else. Yes, but knowing that it's not a selfish thing to do. Exactly. If you're gonna caregiver, if you're gonna be a caregiver long term, you have to be able to, so to speak, play the game in a way that allows you to do it long term, right? So you can't be burnt out when you're into maybe being a caregiver for 20 years, right? Then you're not there for the person that you wanted to give all of yourself to. So when people tell me, well, I feel wrong and selfish for doing it, I'm like, you are doing a disservice for the person that you're hoping to care for for a long time. Because then if you need a caregiver yourself, how are you gonna care for them? Or how are you gonna show up and have fun and enjoy life for this person that you've given up your life to help, right? Live. So there's a lot of different ways to think things through when that shame and guilt show up. Yeah. We talked a lot about support, you know. And so Caitlin, I want to give you the opportunity to share a little bit about folk cancer resources and ways that they and their team can show up for caregivers, not just the cancer patient, but caregivers as well. I think that's really important to point out here. Yeah, for sure. So we um the biggest service I would say that can be helpful in this spot of life is our emotional support services, specifically counseling. Um we offer that at no cost to our community, and that's open to patients and their family members or caregivers. Um, and that's a way where the caregiver can kind of have, you know, re a safe place where they can process all of those difficult emotions that come up that maybe they don't feel like they have the support system to process those with. And so that's a way that we can come alongside our families. It's amazing. And then support groups as well, right? Yeah, we have our support groups as well. And right now, most of our support groups are geared towards um patients specifically, but there are some other community um support groups that we can point patients to in their families specifically for those caregivers in our area. And I know we talked to Hannah last, not last episode, but the one before that. And she does some caregiver specialty things also just to have a place for them to release and take care of their bodies too. For sure. So this is kind of a question for both of you, I guess. What does meaningful support actually look like?

SPEAKER_01 14:57

Not just let me know if you need anything.

Practical Help That Creates Breathing Room

SPEAKER_00 15:03

And I know we talked about this a little bit on the last episode too, but having that meaningful support, if I mean Caitlin, you see these, you don't want to say, let me know if you need anything else. Like, how can you have a caregiver explain what that feeling is? Just piggy, piggybacking off of what you said about like having that support, having those safe people. I think being a person that just continually shows up and continually asks, how are you doing? How are things going, not just with the patient or the family as a whole or the, you know, system as a whole, but how are you doing? Um, asking, you know, specifically what can I do to help, and then being willing to do those things. Um, sometimes just sitting and listening is the best thing that you can do. But then sometimes those practical things of maybe it's picking the kids up, maybe it's, you know, going on a grocery run, like those practical things that maybe don't feel like caregiving, but can take some of the load off and can be helpful as well. Yeah. And I think, you know, kind of like we talked in the last episode, you know, doing what fits your personality, right? So I was talking to someone a few weeks ago, and they're every time they find out what I do, everyone, almost everyone, has a cancer story. And so they're like, Well, I had this friend and they're sick. Uh, they're caring for their loved one who's sick, and all I do is send them memes. And I feel like I'm not doing it enough. I was like, you're making her laugh. You like I love a good meme. I love a good meme. If you're sending memes and funny videos, and that's the connection that you've always had, don't stop doing that. There's it doesn't, and having someone be a caregiver does not invalidate what used to make the two of you laugh before. And you simply seeing something funny and sending it tells them, I'm thinking about you. You don't have to say, you know, how are you? And then send you can just simply send the meme and let them know that they don't have to respond back. Then that takes the effort out of everything. They just slapped and they feel seen. Meaningful support. Of course. I like to be corny sometimes. So we talked a little bit about support systems and community and and a little bit about day-to-day reality, but is there anything on the day-to-day that you would add that we haven't already talked about or Caitlin from your side too? Is there anything that y'all would like to share that's, you know, maybe if you're not a caregiver or maybe someone close to you's just been diagnosed and you're getting prepared, like what would you say to them? How would you set them up to be able to cope and manage and take care of themselves as well? I think if you're not a caregiver, the important thing is to give them the opportunity to hold space for them to do the things that they need, right? So if someone's just been recently diagnosed and the caregivers pulling their hair out, trying to figure out what this is mean for the rest of my life. Maybe they just need a nap. So maybe you come in and say, look, I'm just gonna sit in the house with whoever's here. Um, you give me your phone, soda, and because that's the thing, is like you can't let go because you're worried someone's gonna call or need you. And and you're like, I know you need a nap. I'm just gonna come, you're gonna have a nap time. I don't care if you actually fall asleep. I'm not gonna check on you, but you're just gonna have time to just let go and do it. You can't, it's not fair to say, well, you should really start taking care of yourself. Or I heard caregivers have a hard time taking care of themselves. You should really start putting together a self-care plan. It's like, oh, really? You have this information that nobody else in the world has, and then you're still not helping me do it.

SPEAKER_03 18:56

Yeah.

Boundaries And Saying No

The Invisible Work And Double Life

Feeling Like You Are Failing

Final Takeaways And Closing

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Or if you do these things, right? So if like you see a list because you're interested in how to support your friend, and it's like, oh, they should journal and they should do yoga and they should meditate. Say to them, I breathe, like I do breath work, right? Um, I'm just gonna come and I'm gonna sit with you while you're maybe with your loved one, you know, waiting for them to go into an appointment that you can't actually physically go into them with. I'm just gonna sit with you in the waiting room and we're just gonna breathe together. Or I'm just gonna sit next to you. One of my best friends, she will, she doesn't even live in the state. She will literally come fly here to sit next to me on the sofa for an entire weekend. And we just binge watch things, right? And so it's doing, it's making it possible for this person in their new life to have the space to figure out what they need. Because we can tell them these are A, B, and C are what have always worked for me, right? And what works for me might not work for the person that's watching. So it's how do we allow them to have the space or how can we help them be curious or have the time, right? Have the permission to take the time to try to figure out what works for them, right? As a caregiver, if you needed to set a boundary with someone that was overdoing it's not what I want to say, but trying maybe too hard and giving you all this advice of things that they read online or whatever, like telling you, how would you explain this is too much? Yeah, without hurting, you don't hurt their feelings because they're trying to help, yeah, their standard. Yeah, but setting a boundary is hard in general. So I think my response will be completely different than Caitlin's because I love it. Because around the holidays, I talk about this often because usually that's where those conversations come up. And caregivers are notoriously good at being people pleasers. And I tell them you have to learn to say no. And no doesn't have to be just no if it makes you uncomfortable with just those two letters together, right? But no is a complete sentence, right? So some if someone like there was one time where someone started to tell me how this person that is related to someone that they happen to know had a completely different type of cancer than my husband and did this thing that they saw online and it cured them. And I'm I could I could tell by then where it was going. And when it was the long line of people before she even got to the cancer, I said, No, I can't do this. And and she was like, Oh no, I have to no, I'm sorry. Like at that point it is hard, but when you are living with cancer, hurting someone's feelings seems a lot less burdensome. It does like it can create a problem. Um, it's not to like curse at them and be disrespectful, right? But if you have no bandwidth and you can't think of the words, because oftentimes people find themselves in these conversations without forewarning and they don't have a script put together. So they don't know what to say. And they're like, I don't want this. This is too much for me. Um, but also I don't know how to tell someone this without hurting their feelings. So sometimes you just have to say it. Like if I'm in scanxiety and one of my friends is like they want to rant about something, uh, I'll say, I don't, I don't know if I'm here for this right now. I don't think I can give you the right amount of energy and time. So I would love to hear about it later. But right now I'm going through something and it's it's actually gonna make me feel more anxious than than helpful. Yeah. So say no. It's okay. It's okay. Because I think about that with families, like too. There you're always gonna have some family membership in that. And trying to be helpful, yes, but it's a lot. I can't imagine someone coming to me with this long list of things they found off the internet if I was mode. The other thing that has happened is especially when my husband was first diagnosed, I would I was the messenger, right? And so if I there was some people that I told in person and they literally fell to the ground crying. And so the first time it happened, I was like, this is this, this is not my job. Yeah, right. Um so it kind of falls into I think the same personality of someone that would try to overhelp because it's about them in a way. And so this was their reaction. And um, the second time that happened, because it happened like three times, the second person they fell to the ground. I was like, okay, and I turned around and I walked away because I was you can't be responsible. I was like, I am not your therapist. This is not fair to me. Yeah. Uh well, for you guys. No, no. And so then I became kind of the gatekeeper because then I realized people were doing this on the phone with my husband. And I'm like, look, you can be sad. I'm not, I'm not ever saying, don't be fearful or sad if you hear someone's been diagnosed, but you can be sad with someone who can be there and receptive to your needs. The person who's been diagnosed or the one taking care of them is not that person at all. Right. And so, yeah, sometimes you have to like you find out really fast, you have to set boundaries and you're not ready to do it. And you just you have to do that sometimes. Yeah, I was just about to say I echo all of that and think I think it's just as simple sometimes as saying that doesn't work for us in and moving on because yeah, explaining it all the time isn't always, you know, yeah, the energy that it takes to do that when you, like you said, have so many other things going on that are taking up space in your brain. So yeah, I just echo for sure. Um that's good to know. I'm good. Yeah. I can setting boundaries is not an easy thing in general. No, especially in a situation like that. And I wouldn't could not imagine a reaction like that. Yeah. Well, on that day, patient, like you don't have that energy, you're like, absolutely not. Not too bad. For sure. So we talked just a little bit uh about kind of the behind the scenes of a caregiver and all the things that you might be juggling at one time. But I'm I made a little list here and I'm just gonna say a few of them, but like scheduling appointments, managing medications, um, insurance, dealing with insurance companies, if you're working, if you have kids, pets, um, transportation to and from treatments, um, and then emotional supports on here as well. But I would imagine that some like the compiling all of those things. Yeah. Because when you think about the day-to-day, like right now, as we're talking, I'm thinking about you and your husband. I'm not thinking about insurance. I'm not thinking about Charlotte woke up this morning and she's waiting on a phone call from a doctor, and then she's got to X, Y, Z, and I'm so I imagine that that space is very difficult to deal with as well. Can you speak into that a little bit? Yeah, I think it's we're all we we're not visibly changed, right? When some, especially also with someone who has cancer, you know, my husband's cancer is not evident, is not visible, right? So people sometimes can forget, right? And so, and if it doesn't affect their lives, if my life doesn't spill over into theirs, then it doesn't require them to think about it. And so I think it's trying to live whatever a normal life is for a caregiver and a cancer patient, but it's always as if I know with my husband and I, it's like we're living this life together that nobody else gets to see. Right. And so we have our weird cancer jokes and we have the things that we have been able to come together and create more of a connection because of just sometimes the hilarity of just how awful some things are. And so it's it's almost like living a double life, so to speak, because other than all those things you listed, it's, you know, with his treatment, what are our quality of life issues that I always have to be in check, right? Because those things can slide slowly, and then you get to six months later and you're like, when did this happen for them? Right. When did it get to be like this? Um, which also means that you kind of like learn the language of the sounds of distress. Like my husband had has thyroid cancer. So sometimes he will like choke on nothing. And so, and I can hear him doing it and it's an alert. Like you hear like a baby make a noise, right? And then you're like, oh wait, he's this is this is not normal. This is this thing. Um, it's being there emotionally for the other person, but also creating connection outside of caregiver patient, right? So it's like we are both bound through cancer, but also we were people that liked being around each other before that happened. And it's balancing the two, right? The two different types of relationships. So there's there's a lot that goes um that happens under the surface that people see on the outside, oh, look at how close they are. And it's like, well, cancer can do that, right? I mean, we were close before, but there are things, or you know, I will say, well, I can't commit to something in this month, and they don't know it's because, well, then he has his oncology appointments. I don't know what happens after those results come, right? Um, or why it's hard for us to buy tickets to something a year in advance. Right. Like, I don't, I don't know what's gonna be happening in my life. Yeah. Um, so it's things like that where it's changed how we live. Um, and it's very specifically because of cancer in our lives that other people will never understand um why it happens. And I don't ever really feel like they deserve for me to like give a full explanation of why this is just how things are, right? And then yeah, having those people respect that. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I really appreciate you being so vulnerable in this experiences because I I'm just sitting here thinking of all the people that might be in this situation and having those feelings and those reactions and maybe not fully understanding why. Right. And then that resentment builds or whatever that is for them starts to build. But to hear you say it and to share your lived experience, really, I mean, I I would just imagine that would truly help somebody in that situation to validate right, this is I hate to say normal, but this is okay. Like this, that this is happening, and I'm not the only one who feels this way. Exactly. And then it feels like it might get that person to the point to say, okay, now what can I do for me? Right. Now, like now, how do I exactly then know but that's okay. And then have your patient, have your person you're caring for understand it too. Yeah. Because I can imagine for some people, maybe that's difficult. Maybe your person you are caring for isn't as receptive to that. Right. I'm sure you've probably seen some of that too, but it do you see it pretty frequently? Well, I think just acknowledging that like not all caregiving relationships are positive necessarily. Maybe you're in a situation where it's just the only option or there's already difficult dynamics in the relationship, and then this just adds another layer. So for sure, definitely see that. So this will be for both of you. If someone is listening and they feel like they're failing as a caregiver, how would what would you say to them right now? You're not. Really not. I think something that people don't realize is there's no training for becoming a caregiver. A lot of times it's one day you weren't, and then the next day, bam, you're a caregiver now. And so I think it's okay to give yourself grace to learn and to ask questions and to figure it out along the way. There's unfortunately not a clear textbook of what to expect. And every day looks completely different a lot of the times. Um, and so just having that grace for yourself that you're not feeling, and it's okay to not feel like you have it all perfectly put together all of the time. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. That's perfect. And also knowing that you feeling like you're failing means that you actually really care. Yeah. You know, and that you can have both and right. You can feel, you can have a day where you're like, I really feel like I'm failing, and say, but I did this one thing so perfectly. Right. So, like I think having oppositional emotions at the same time, like understanding that we can do that, um, gives us more space to just be who we are. Yeah. It feels like a caregiver is a superhero after all of this conversation. Like you just need a superhero title because you're being everything for yourself and and for those around you. That's pretty incredible. Yeah. Thank you. They really are the glue a lot of times to the the system or the family unit unit. I see that a lot for sure. But you but all held together. Yeah. Well, Charlotte and Caitlin, both of you, thank you so much for joining us today and talking about your amazing experiences here and everything that you're doing. And then you as a case manager and seeing like everything that you see on a daily basis. I mean, you go to your patients and their caregivers every single day. So we really appreciate this conversation and we hope that it resonated with some of you at home. Um, if you guys ever feel alone, Hope Cancer Resources is definitely here for you. Charlotte has given us some great inspiration and she has her own podcast that we're happy to share along with that for cancer. Yeah, caregivers. So thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you. Thanks so much for listening to Hope Unscripted. Join us next time as we share real stories, meaningful resources, and reminders that you're not alone. Until then, keep choosing hope.