Divorced...Not Defeated

In this episode, we talk with two individuals who have experienced divorce—they were not married to one another—about how they rebuilt their lives, found joy again, and embraced new beginnings. Their stories remind us that while divorce can be painful, it can also be the start of a fulfilling new chapter 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome, welcome to MJ Unscripted. I am MJ Walker. I'm so glad that you joined us today. How do you know that you're in the right place? You are a person destined to become a better version of yourself. Today I have with me two guests. I have Andre Morse and I have Trish. Let's go with Santiago. Thank you guys for coming today. This is um a different but special kind of episode as normally I have one person or a last time I had a couple, which you guys are not that, right? But I brought you guys on because we are in our community, we are dealing with um divorce a lot, right? We're dealing with divorce, um, unfortunately. And um if it's going to happen, then it's almost one of those things like how do I deal with it, right? The pros and cons or the ups and the downs. There's so much that comes with it. Um, but before we jump into that, I would love for you guys to introduce and um let people know who you are. You want to start?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Who are you? Sure. My name is Andre Morris. Um, I am a father of three.

SPEAKER_03 1:15

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

I have an 18-year-old um son, I have a 20-year-old daughter, and I have a 15-year-old son. Um a U.S. veteran. Um uh was in the Navy, and uh I serve as a deacon in the church.

SPEAKER_02 1:32

Nice, okay, Miss Trish.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Uh my name is Trisia Santiago. Um, I am a woman of God, uh, first and foremost. I'm a mother of three. Um, I have a 20-year-old son, 16-year-old son, and a 13-year-old daughter. Okay. Um I am a probation officer. Okay. Okay. I am an auntie. I'm a dance auntie. Dance auntie. Um I am a believer of mental health therapy. Nice. Um, I have my master's in clinical mental health counseling. So and I just have a genuine love for helping people. I love that. In any way that I can.

SPEAKER_02 2:13

I love that for both of you. Um, so in talking to both of you, um, a childhood friend and someone I've met later in life who I've who I would say at this point has become a sister to me, I realize that you both have something in common, right? Which are number one, three children, right? It's almost like similar ages. And then um two people who, and I'm gonna say, I'm gonna use the word recently have dealt with um divorce.

SPEAKER_03 2:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

Um, which is not an easy word. Some people don't like to talk about it, some people don't like to address it. I think it's important that we do have those conversations because there's someone right now who's dealing with something and they need to know. Absolutely. Right? Is what I'm feeling, is that normal? Yeah. Okay, so I don't know how we want to jump this off. Or I, you know, just converse, right? Um, how long were we all married?

SPEAKER_00 3:11

Well, I was married um for 20 years. Wow. 20 years. Um together, 22. Okay, married 20.

SPEAKER_02 3:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Also, um, me and my ex-wife, we also have known each other for well over 35 years.

SPEAKER_03 3:27

Oh, okay. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 3:28

So we had a long history. You know, there was friendship, there was dating, then it got married. So we we, you know, this was this was a struggle because it wasn't just somebody that I just randomly met. It was somebody that I had history with.

SPEAKER_03 3:45

Right.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

And so, you know, it it was tough. Divorce was definitely tough.

SPEAKER_02 3:51

Okay. Yeah. And you guys were married.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

So we were married almost 15 years. Okay. Um together about 20 years. Um Yeah, and it was we met at at work. Yeah, that's how we met. Okay. Yeah, so we met at work and uh you know as soon as we met, we took off run-end dating and you know, all of that. And then before we knew it, we were married, um, started having children. Um and uh yeah, it was hard, you know, because who no one gets married to to divorce? Like that's not the goal, obviously. Right. Um, so it's definitely tough because you get married and you want to stay the course, you know, you want to um be a good example for your children, and you want them to see love and all of those things, and you know, but unfortunately, sometimes it just doesn't work out for different reasons, you know. Um I could definitely touch on one thing that I think about when it comes to um dating and choosing the person that you want to marry, is like first and foremost, and I go back to like mental health therapy, you know, when you decide to date someone and you decide to like maybe I'm gonna marry this person, before you do any of that, you have to heal yourself. Yeah, like that's so important.

SPEAKER_02 5:18

Because we're all coming with our own, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

And that's something that I didn't do. Okay. Like, so when when he and I had started dating, um I was young, you know, I was like 22 when we started dating, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:35

At this age now, we look back, like we thought we were growing at 22, but now it's like I was a baby. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:41

And it's like at the time, I said to myself, like, I really shouldn't be dating right now. I should like take time to heal and just uh find who I am and all of those things. But you meet someone and they sweep you off your feet, and you know, it's funny. He said it feels great in the beginning too. You know, and then uh, you know, and then there's certain things that you you uh know that should be like dealt with in the beginning, but you just kind of sweep it under the rug.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

Let me ask both of you, um, because it's something that I'd pay attention to now. Did you have an example of what marriage looks like prior to you guys getting married? Like, did you have anyone in your family who had kind of set this bar and like this is what it looks like? Or was it more so like I love this person and we just gonna figure it out? Like we're winging it.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

No, no, I I did not. Okay. Um, you know, I I grew up in a family with with my mother and my sister. You know, dad passed away when I, you know, when I was two years old. Wow. And so um it was just always just been me and my sister.

SPEAKER_03 6:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

And so there really wasn't an example to really see, you know, of what marriage was supposed to look like. The only thing that I learned or that I took away from, you know, just being in that in that position was um, you know, how hard you are to work.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:15

And and and that was that was just an example that my mother showed. Right. But as far as marriage, you know, you know, I I had I really didn't have anyone to really see that model. And so when I started, you know, saying, okay, you know, I think I want to get married, I think I'm I'm ready to do this, I'm ready to settle down, but not really knowing what comes along with it.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

I didn't, you know, and I said earlier that the one thing is that me and my ex-wife, we knew each other for a very long time, well over 30 years, we were friends.

SPEAKER_02 7:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Then we started dating. But when we got to marriage, we forgot about the friendship, we forgot about the dating.

SPEAKER_02 7:58

Yeah. And so we just hear raising these kids.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

We just, yeah, we just here. And so I think, you know, a lot of that played a part on it because it's like, man, we forgot what got us here.

SPEAKER_02 8:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:12

Yeah. You know, and so, but it it is, it's it was, it was, you know, different growing up and not really seeing. I wish I had an example to see, you know, how this how this works. And of course, there's never going to be a blueprint when it comes to marriage. Correct. But I wish there was something that, okay, maybe I would have listened more.

SPEAKER_02 8:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:35

Maybe I would have done something different.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

Or even put yourself in positions where you could see it. Like you try to think of like having a mentor, right? Or going to church, just like, because there's a lot of married couples in church, like just not a blueprint, but more so an example. And I can also see the good and the bad because I think it's a bad, what is it, concept to think that marriage is always the sweetest bells and whistles. Like, no, it gets ugly. Right. Right. Um, did you have an example or I did not.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

I did not sound similar to you. Uh, I mean, my parents were together, they were married. Um, however, when I was about, my dad was an alcoholic. Okay. Uh yeah. So my dad was an alcoholic. Um, it was very toxic from the time, from as long as I can remember. Um, because he, you know, would go out at night, drink with his friends, come home, they would argue, like he'd be like, you know, just so drunk, um, calling her names, you know. So I just remember the toxicity. Yeah. Um, as a dad, he was amazing. He was very loving, affectionate, you know, all of those things. Just not a good partner. So yeah, he was just not a good partner. And it was, you know, the alcohol, uh, you know, drugs and alcohol changed who you are. You know, as a man, um, he was a beautiful man, you know, he was a spiritual man, you know, believed in God. Um, he loved my mom, you know, he loved us. Um, but unfortunately, the alcohol took him away from us. Yeah, and um, I was about, let's see, how old was I? I was about seven years old when he became incarcerated. And then at that point, my mother didn't allow him back in the home. Um, so yeah, so I was about seven when it just became my mom. So my mom no example became a single parent. Yeah, no example. Okay. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:25

So so we we get married, right? We're trying to figure this thing out, right? And initially things are going well, and you touched on like the dating part, right? Like, because someone did say that to me, like you two were there first, right? And the kids will be fine as long as you two are fine. But if no one, it's almost like you learn that later, right? But if no one plants it, you don't know. Right. So then we reach like this bumpy part in the relationship. When you reach it in this bumpy area, do you decide immediately? Is that your thought? Like we should not be together, or do we try to make things work?

SPEAKER_00 11:02

Or well, there was a lot that played into that decision for me.

SPEAKER_02 11:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:08

And and um selfishly, I I thought about more so about myself. Okay. The image. Okay. I said I was a deacon in the church. So there was a lot of things that I put before my marriage that I should not have done.

SPEAKER_02 11:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:25

You know, I was worried about what people thought. What people thought about, you know, here I am, you know, coming to church trying to encourage somebody else, but my own house is a wreck.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:36

So it was, it was, it was more so worried about more about what people thought rather than pouring into what was more that should have been more into my wife at the time.

SPEAKER_03 11:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

So um, yeah, it was it was hard because you I love the accountability though. Trying to make the adjustment. Yeah. And it took me a long time, Mo. It took me a long time to get to the place of accountability.

SPEAKER_02 12:01

And to see yourself, like where did I contribute?

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Right. And it took a long, it took, it took counseling. It took counseling to to go through that because there was always, okay, well, that person did this, that person did that. And then the counselor sat back and she said, I want to know more about what you did. And so no one's ever asked you that. Nobody has never asked me that. And so I was like, What? Wow, what do you mean what I did? And so she was like, Okay, I want you to, next time you come back, I want you to write it down.

SPEAKER_03 12:33

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:34

All the things that you can think about that you that would possibly went wrong on your part.

SPEAKER_02 12:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:40

And I came back and I was like, page one.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

I was gonna say, did you have a laundry list? Page three. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

And I was like, wow. I really did all of this. But it was it was just the fact of of going through this process, not knowing that I'm two, you know, I'm at I'm I'm I'm the one that that's at fault here. Yeah, you know, I could have done more, I could have done a lot of things differently.

SPEAKER_02 13:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

But I chose not to because of image.

SPEAKER_02 13:08

Okay. I love, I love, I love the accountability. Um, that's hard, right? It's hard to see self because it's easy to say right all the things you did, and I'm the victim here. Um, but that also comes with maturity, too. So um, I thank you for that. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:28

You're funny.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

Yeah, I guess I love that for him though. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:32

Um so accountability, that's my favorite word. It is. That's my favorite word. It's something that I uh it's on repeat at home with my children. Um, I would have to say that during the marriage, um, I wish that we had sought therapy um as a couple. So that's something that we never did.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Did you ever suggest it or it was it was suggested.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

Okay. Yeah, it just didn't happen. Okay. Um, I eventually sought individual therapy. Um, but this was later on when like a lot of the damage had already been done. Um and account as far as accountability goes, the important thing for me was to take account of like what role did I play, you know, just like you did. Um yeah, I can play victim all day long, but you were one of two people who decided to get married, who decided, you know, to take this journey. So I had to say, okay, well, let's go back to day one. You know, you saw some red flags, like in terms of like the two of you needed to heal in your own ways. And uh maybe therapy should have been something that happened early on. So, like before we got married, we did go to marital counseling, like maybe like um, I'm sorry, um counseling with a pastor. Okay, pastoral counseling.

SPEAKER_03 14:49

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Um, we had a few sessions, um, but it didn't go past that. It was just that, you know.

SPEAKER_02 14:54

So I wish, you know, we had sought therapy early on just to kind of like work on things that we needed to work on individually so that we could have been our best selves, you know, moving into and that's different because you're saying I could look at myself and be accountable even for noticing certain things about the person, right? Because it doesn't mean being being accountable isn't always that I did something to you. So when we finally get to that point and we decide, okay, you know what, I don't want to do this anymore. Um, there's so much that comes with that because we have kids, yeah. Right. Um, and that's always that I won't even say it's at the back of the mind. It's at the front of the mind, like because it does impact them. Um so once that decision was made, like how did that feel like in the household or you you moved eventually, right? So how does that feel? Like, what is that can you talk to me about that? Because I feel like when we talk divorce, sometimes we always think about what the female from her perspective, but you're here because you had to physically leave.

SPEAKER_00 16:07

Yeah. It was difficult. It was difficult because reality hit. That was the very first time that I ever been separated from not living in the same dwelling as my children.

SPEAKER_03 16:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:22

And I think that hurt it the most because for years we chose pain rather than peace.

SPEAKER_03 16:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:28

And so we chose pain to stay because we wanted both parents to be in the house. Right. So when the time came that I said, okay, we have to be able to give the kids peace. And so when it was time for me to leave, it was hard. I found myself going back to the house every single day.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

What do you mean going back?

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Like, because I I just, it was just hard for me to not be there. So I would call, I would come back, I'm coming by to see the kids.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

Oh, you just come by to see us. Yeah, because it was like it was just part of your routine.

SPEAKER_00 17:06

It was just part of my routine to see my my kids leaving. Yeah. And to see my kids coming in. Right. So I was there like twice a day. Right, right. Twice a day. Like, what you doing, baby? Like, we don't we divorce, right? Like, you know we divorce, right? But it was it was difficult. It was difficult because um for once in my life I've I felt something was really missing. Like, you know, the whole marriage, you know, we we we you know, we grew apart and we learned to accept that.

SPEAKER_02 17:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

But it was something when it came to not being there with my kids. Being present.

SPEAKER_02 17:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

You know, when my kids came inside. And so it was it was difficult. It was it was very um, and I did that for maybe about three, four months. Did you feel lonely? Yes.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

Even though, even though I would, you know, I would come home to my own place and I would and I was like, man, it just, you know, I don't hear my my my my my daughter yelling at her brothers.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

Right, right, right. It was almost too quiet. Right, it's just too quiet.

SPEAKER_00 18:13

But it was it was it was difficult in the in the sense of the fact that I just was not able to be there and see my kids wake up in the morning.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

And that was the most difficult. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:24

Okay, so on your end, he moved. And now you're home with the kids. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Uh it was extremely difficult. Um well, first and foremost, just sharing the news with the kids of what was to take place, you know, though that the divorce was happening. Um, that was tough because um our youngest was only six, one on seven. Yeah. Um, they're all about four years apart. Um so sharing the news for one was just incredible heartbreaking. Yeah, because who wants to tell their kids that their parents are moving? You know, like so. That's the hard, that was the hardest part. And then moving forward, um, the divorce happened literally right before the shutdown, the pandemic. So um, so we we divorced, but prior to it being legalized, he had already moved out. Okay. Um, probably like six months prior. Okay. Um, so the pandemic happens, shutdown happens. So the kids are homeschooling, I'm working from home.

SPEAKER_02 19:29

Oh, all the emotions are happening.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

I'm finishing up my master's degree. Right. So I'm counseling clients.

SPEAKER_02 19:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:37

Um, I'm dealing with my own um anxiety and you know, depression related to um the divorce, you know, like and the pandemic and everything. Yeah. So all of that coupled into one. So it's me and three kids in this home. I'm dealing with their emotions, you know, behind the divorce and homeschooling. It was just a world of, yeah. So it was really, really tough. Um, and then at the same time, I'm trying to create that that peace as much as I possibly can for them. And uh I love hearing your perspective as you know, as the man, as the man in the situation, because um I tried to understand like where he was coming from. Like, this must be hard. Um, he's moving out, like he doesn't get to see the kid every day. Um, so I tried to understand his side as much as I could. Thankfully, I had a friend who had already gone through a divorce, a male friend. Um, so he was able to give me his perspective as well in terms of this is what it's like as the man, you know. Um, so that was helpful. And uh, you know, at that point I was just trying to um find my own peace, heal as much as I could so that I could be my best self for my kids. You know, and that was tough. So for me, it was journaling, it was exercise, it was a lot of prayer, um, breathing exercises because you don't even think a lot of what I was dealing with um was repressed. So I was dealing with anxiety attacks and stuff like that. So I had to do breathing exercises. I was meditating, you know, I was doing everything I could possibly do to because you're almost like feeling these things.

SPEAKER_02 21:20

Your body lets us know when it's uncomfortable or under attack, and you're feeling all these things, and it's like, wait, why am I breathing like this? Or you're almost like holding the stress somewhere, like you feel tense, right? And it's like you have to like, okay, let me, I need the ground, right? Right, feet on the ground, breathe, right? All that has to go somewhere, can't stay right in.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

Because it was survival mode, like for so many years, you know, like when we're parents, mother, uh, mother or father, we do what we have to do to take care of our kids and make sure that they're well mentally, physically, emotionally.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Sometimes with that, we neglect our things on the backburn.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

You don't realize that you're not taking care of yourself physically, mentally. And then when stuff hits the fan, you're like, okay, now I'm going through a divorce. And all these feelings and emotions that you put under the rug, you know, come up to the surface. And you're like, okay, now I have to deal with this.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

It was funny. Well, not funny, but for me, my kids, it it it didn't catch my kids by surprise that we were getting divorced.

SPEAKER_03 22:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Um, unfortunately, we we spoke about that in the house for so long.

SPEAKER_02 22:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

Well over 10 years.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

So they're like, are you gonna do it or not? Right.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

So so we have been having this conversation for years. Okay. And so by the time, you know, the kids is like, okay, you know, y'all getting divorced.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

So I've been saying that it was, it was, it wasn't, it wasn't a a shock to them. Um, I I think it was more so a relief for them.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

Because they witness so much of the hardness. And so I think for them it was like, okay, dad, you're gonna be okay. Mom, you won't be okay.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:15

And, you know, we here.

SPEAKER_02 23:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

So it was, it was, it was, it wasn't shot, it wasn't, you know, by shock.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

And and so did that help you more as much as it was difficult for you because you had to leave, did it help you more that they weren't so emotional about it? Yes. Because that would have weighed like I'm leaving and they're going through it, you know?

SPEAKER_00 23:35

Yes, it was definitely it was having them know um was very helpful because that was a piece that I didn't have to, you know, they already knew. Um, they're comfortable with it.

SPEAKER_03 23:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:50

Um, it was just the more so on me is just not physically being there. Right. And I think for the most part, I think um the physical, the me not being there also played a role in in their lives too, because you know, they was like, all right, hey dad, you know, what what you doing?

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:11

And I'm you know, and usually like my kids wouldn't have to never call me to say what you doing. I'm here.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

I'm right here.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

You know, so it's it's it I think it was just learning to adapt to to that part of not being there physically for both of us.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

So where are we now? Like, divorce has been a couple of years now. We're adjusting. Um, what does that look like? Like, are we in a good space? Are we getting along? Is it still difficult?

SPEAKER_00 24:43

I'm in a very good space. Okay. Very good space. I think this is probably the most I actually see the 13, 14-year-old in us again. Oh, okay. Because we went back to friendship.

SPEAKER_03 24:58

Yeah, that feels good.

SPEAKER_00 24:59

It goes, yeah, we went, we went back to friendship. Okay. And um, you know, we just we are laughing, we're joking. You know, we just recently went to go pick up our daughter um from college. And, you know, we rotting back, and you know, um, you know, I said, you know, I gotta stop and get some chicken. And she laughing. My daughter's a nursing major. She laughing. My daughter's on the phone, and she likes, you know, you're not supposed to be eating that chicken. Doctor's important. So we just laughing and joking, and and so we found ourselves just going back to where it started. That's good. Not to say that we're we're looking to rekindle anything, but it's about raising these children. Absolutely. And so I think we're in a better space than we have been in a long time.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Amen. Amen. Because it was rough.

SPEAKER_00 25:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:53

It's been, you know, some time, and I love that we are now at that space where we can ride in the car and make sure our daughter is good getting home from college. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 26:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

Um, where are we?

SPEAKER_01 26:05

Oh, I would definitely have to say that we're a work in progress. Okay. Um, but we're definitely in a better space that we than we were maybe three or four years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we're getting a little bit more than a lot of people. So you see some movement. Yeah, there's definitely some growth, um, some movement. Um, we're able to have conversation, you know, we're able to do things that we the things that we need to do for our kids. And um, and that's just a goal. You know, the goal is to continue to create that peace between us and just remind ourselves that it's about the kids. It's always about the kids. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 26:38

They they come first. And um, Judge Judy said, Here's the plug. Well, Judge Judy said that we have to get to a space where we love our kids more than we hate one another, right? And if I already don't hate you, then that part should be easy. Right. Right. But we the goal is always what the kids need. And then if we're able to do that, two mature people can allow that to happen.

SPEAKER_03 27:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

So um I love that. I love that you two were able to share different aspects of what you went through, and that zero point did anybody bash anybody, right? Because it wasn't about coming on here to talk about what they did wrong. Like there was at this point in your life, there's so much self-reflection that you were able to see your part, right? I can see my part, I can see where we just didn't mesh and we made an adult decision, and this is where we are now. So I thank both of you for your transparency, for your vulnerability. I love that you guys came on here today. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you for saying yes. Yes. If you loved anything that you saw or heard, please do not be afraid to hit uh like, subscribe. I can be found on all podcast platforms, including YouTube. I pray that your day is filled with love, laughter, and learning, and I'll talk to you soon.