Beside Every Calling | Episode 06: Staff Spouse Life-What No one Tells You

Beside Every Calling | Episode 06: Staff Spouse Life — What No One Tells You

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In this episode, Debbie and Jill sit down with Dana Hutsko and Bethany Jack for an honest conversation about the real experience of ministry spouse life on a church staff.

From the early days of feeling unprepared and alone to learning how to build community and stay grounded, this conversation offers both validation and practical wisdom for every season of ministry life.

In This Episode:

•  What they wish someone had told them before ministry life 
•  Navigating loneliness in the early years 
•  Practical ways to find your people and build community 
•  Staying grounded in your identity beyond the role 
•  Encouragement for those just starting out 

Table Talk Questions:

•  What has surprised you most about ministry life? 
•  Have you experienced loneliness in this season? What did that look like? 
•  Who are your “safe people,” and how did you find them? 
•  What helps you stay grounded in your identity outside of ministry? 
•  What advice would you give to someone just starting out as a staff spouse? 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:01

Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it. If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm. Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way. So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode. Hi, welcome to the latest episode of Beside Every Calling. I'm Debbie Daniels. And I'm Jill Barber. And we are really excited today because we are going to introduce you to two of our favorite humans on the planet that are our girlfriends, so we need to say that up front. Um that we met in a lonely season of ministry and became really good friends. But as we get started, we just want to welcome you to this call. And we are going to be talking about the spouse, the ministry life when you're a staff spouse, um, because all four of us have been that. But first, let's get started with Dana introducing herself and then Bethany.

SPEAKER_01 1:07

I am Dana Hutzko, I'm married to David Hutzko, and we're at New Life in Pismo. Um we've been in ministry, let's see, we were married 26 years, and we've been in ministry the whole time. So we have four kids. Our baby just turned 18. So we have four kids within five years. So they're 18, uh, 20, 21, 23.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yes, and I'm Bethany Jack. I am married to Kevin Jack, and we serve as the lead pastors at Church for the One in Lakeland, Florida. And um, we have four kids as well. Ours are 9, 11, 13, and 15. And we haven't always been lead pastors. We started as children's pastors in college, we got married and became youth pastors, we became church planters, and then now have had the opportunity to serve two different established churches as lead pastors.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

And Jill and I are very excited to have you guys. I even wore my pearls today, even though it's um if anyone happens to be on YouTube, because Jill and I got a shower for you. And I went and got Starbucks because I'm like, I'm having coffee with my friends this morning. I'm just gonna go back a little bit. The four of us actually became friends on something in our denomination called the Coat Cruise, which is a group of pastors of churches over a thousand. Um, and we did not know each other, and it took me a long time to be willing to go on that because I thought, oh, this sounds dreadful. Stuck on a boat for seven days with other ministry leaders. And it was just I was worried we would judge each other or that weirdness, and instead it was a deep friendship, and that is kind of just so you guys know, the model Jill and I are hoping somehow to get a piece of that in this community on a podcast, which we have no idea how. Tell me how you guys doing currently in ministry, and then we'll go back to how we got started.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Um, yeah, so actually I'm in a brand new season in ministry. Um, my dad was a pastor as well. So this has been my entire life. I've been in a pastor's home. Um, when Kevin and I first started dating, we started dating in youth group at our Nazarene church, um, 15 and 17 years old. Uh, and when I first started dating Kevin, I said, hey, listen, I love that you're going into ministry. That doesn't scare me. I'm not nervous. I know about it, but don't ever ask me to speak. Ever, ever, ever, ever ask me to speak on stage. I will stand by you. I will cheer you on. I will go to team camp. Just don't ask me to speak. So uh for a long time, I loved leading my middle school girls small groups. I loved doing whatever was needed. I sang for a long time on the worship team. Um, and just within this last two years, God actually placed a new calling on my life. Um, I have always worked a different full-time job and raised our kids. Um, and now I'm on staff with Kevin. And it's been scary. It's been messy if we're being really real. Uh, but I know it's exactly where God wants me. And so I'm really thankful and I'm learning, even though we've been in ministry 20 years together, I'm learning all about these new steps that we're taking together. So it's been really awesome.

SPEAKER_01 4:17

So um, David, uh, so we weren't lead pastors in the beginning, um, but we were family pastors, and then he went to associate teaching pastor and then lead pastor. But um, I've always been in kids' ministry, so I've always been um the uh kids director, kids pastor now.

SPEAKER_02 4:34

So and I do want to mention, I don't think any are any of you guys ordained? Because I know Jill and I are not, or are you guys right? We're all living the life beside the call, fully embracing it and finding ourselves within that. So that's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_03 4:47

Yeah. So let's talk, let's just jump into the uh the beginning of all of our stories of that staff life spouse uh situation. Um just, you know, I obviously for me and for Debbie, I should say no one told us anything that our expectations, you know, with trial by fire, the whole thing, yeah, like all of that. But uh was that the case for you guys, or did somebody give you a little bit of uh, you know, hey, you might want to think of this or anything, just in the staff spouse world. We'll talk about, you know, in our next episode, the going into the lead pastor spouse, but as we focus on the staff spouse, because we have lots of great staff spouses out there, hopefully listening, and you know, they are living this life. And um, I guess my question is just tell me a little bit about what was your first impression of that, if you can remember that. Um, stepping into that world, and then we'll just talk about the details of what those days were like.

SPEAKER_01 5:47

So I would say the coolest thing, I mean, we both were religion majors. We um no one sat us down and said uh that people invited us into like their best moments of their life and then their like worst moments of their life. So to me, that was one of the first things I noticed about ministry. I was like, oh, no one explained to me like we're just like an open invite. Like we're just gonna be like, hey, like, mom's dying. I need you to be with us, it's awful. Or like there's this car accident, like, be with us, hold us at the hospital. I was like, I knew those things, but it was totally different of like, oh, we have like an open invite to just like be here and insert ourselves in like your family in this moment. Um, so to me, that was one of the I would say the coolest things that um happened like going into ministry, that no one like sat me down and said, like, hey, um, I would say the hardest thing that I learned like going into that was no one told me that um the like best part about ministry is people, I always say, but like I always tell myself the hardest thing about ministry is people because no one explained to me that like I had to teach Christian people that were there every Sunday morning to be Christ-like. No one explained to me that like I was like, wait, I was like, I'm just here because I love Jesus and I love the world, and I'm gonna go like teach everyone about Jesus, and I want everyone to love him and be as close to him as I am and want what I have. And like uh no one explained to me I had to sit down and be like, oh no, I'm so sorry. We don't treat the people like that. Like, and I'm like, no one explained to me I had to do that within the walls of the church. Does that make sense? Like, yes, I was like, go feed the hungry and help the kids that need help and do all these things and like the teams, like and I thought we're gonna be on sports teams and we're gonna bring them to church and love that. And I was like, Oh, half of my battle is just trying to teach all of you here every Sunday just to love each other and be Christ like. So to me, I would say that was like my opener of like I had been in like church my whole life, but obviously not a pastor's kid, but we were in church all the time. Like, even if the doors were opened, we were there, and my parents were like serving. So, but I did never got to see that side of it, I guess. I guess no one explained that. So I feel like it was the first time I got a good window of like, oh, this is what is it's like the good, bad, the ugly kind of thing, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 8:04

Once you were in it, Dana, did someone try to mentor you, or did you have someone to even go to? Because I'm thinking back, I didn't, but I'm wondering, did you have someone you could go to with questions?

SPEAKER_01 8:13

Yeah, luckily we had um, so I was on staff with one of my best friends or with my best friend, um, and we uh we definitely stuck together right away. And um, there's a lady in our church, and she uh was a board member's wife, and she kind of just was like, Hey, I can tell, like you, we both had four kids. They're both like tinies, they were we were running around, we looked like we were like, Okay, here comes the hotskos. Like, you're like children like everywhere going crazy. So uh it was just she saw us and knew how hard it was. And being the board member's wife, she knows a little bit more of like, oh, like this is kind of the behind the scenes thing that like you guys don't know. You didn't sit get sat down in college and told this is like the ugly side of it or the hard part, you know what I mean? Um, and so she was like, she took us out like every other week and got us ice cream and made sure our kids were watched, and this was like, okay, we don't need to talk about it, but I need you to just kind of feel loved and seen right now, and so that was huge.

SPEAKER_00 9:13

Uh for me, I I just want like to paint the picture because I know there's somebody listening that had something similar. Kevin and I got married um literally like three weeks after graduation at Mount Vernon, and I'm 19, almost 20. That's important. Sounds so young. It is, but I was 19, he was 22, and we packed up a U-Haul and drove two and a half hours from anything we knew and moved into the church parsonage that they allowed the youth group to paint for us. Just let that sink in for a minute. Yeah. Um we knew no one. Um, like, and and the pastor and his wife were super hospitable, but they had a family, they were busy, and that whole first summer of marriage and ministry, I'm not going to lie to you, was so lonely. I was so isolated because I'm used to being at college with all my girlfriends, and um this being married your first year is hard anyway. Being newlyweds is difficult. Well, then stepping into a brand new city, a brand new ministry, brand new jobs. It was like, it was like just water was being poured on me and it wasn't stopping. And I remember saying to Kevin, um, I was like, how do like I'm extroverted and this is hard. I can't even fathom somebody that's not naturally extroverted because it just it felt a little bit, and this isn't that church in particular, it's just kind of how life works. Like people saw us on Sunday, they were kind, and then it was like, see you later. And I was like, oh, okay, well, we're gonna go back home the two of us again. And you know, we we signed up for youth camp. We're at Youth Camp. We've been married four weeks and we're chaperoning Youth Camp. And then they sent us to NYC with 11 kids. I'm 19. These kids are a year younger than me. I mean, just the amount of responsibility that was handed. I was like, okay, here we go. And uh that that was difficult because I just felt alone. I felt um felt like we had kind of just been shoved into something and they expected us to know how to swim, and we didn't. We figured it out, but it was difficult for sure.

SPEAKER_01 11:26

I agree with that, the sink or swim kind of thing. Like you're playing thrown in. Like uh, I remember one time we looked at each other and we're like, well, see, are we gonna sink or like Jimmy like swimming? We both think each other, we're like, we don't sink, let's go, let's figure it out. Like figure it out. So it was fun to like um just be like, well, we're gonna figure it out as we go because we literally do not know what we're doing. But like we we took our classes, we're the same, we got married middle of senior year, and then went straight to seminary, um, and then to the church. But it was just crazy that they just thought we knew how to do the like everyday life thing, I think.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

I I do want to end this like positively though, because it wasn't all negative. In fact, um, I think we had been there three months and literally it like we had watched every episode of Friends on TV that we could because we were just so bored. And finally, Kevin was like, let's just go start asking people to dinner. And we did. We literally like knocked on some doors and we're like, hey, are you guys watching the baseball game tonight? Let us join you. And those became some of our lifelong friends. And so I don't, I don't want to discourage somebody listening that yes, it can be isolating, but I think we have to know to take some steps to find community. And yes, it can be messy, it can be hard. Um, but those are the people now, 20 years later, that I call and ask to come watch my kids if Kevin and I are going to be out of town, because we made those bonds and those friendships at our first church assignment that were so special.

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Which makes such a great transition to what did you learn back then that we could maybe help with someone else just starting out? Because I'm jealous that you guys grew up in the church. I did not even grow up in the church and then married a pastor, and then he was in seminary. And I'll I'll never forget the first funeral, thinking, I've only been to a funeral once in my whole life, and it was my uncle's. Um, and how do you do this? Because people expect so much of the spouse. And again, our spouses went to seminary, and maybe they talked about this, but I at least with Scott. He didn't we uh he went to fuller seminary, so Dr. Mao's wife, Phyllis, had a bit of a spouse group, so that was a huge help for me. Um, and she really I could call her with any questions. But how did you transition and how could we the things you did to help you move on, like Bethany? You just shared, you started knocking on doors and making friends. And then I for me, I really when Scott was a we were young pastoring, I would ask people that had lives kind of that I wanted, how do you do this? And then God always provided a spiritual mentor for me in each space that we were in that I could be totally honest with and they would help me.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

But that's great. Um, I I think for us, we just we had to take steps ourselves. I think we all want to wait for people to extend the invite. Um, and that literally that's something to this day that I think about. If there's somebody that's not connected or somebody that's brand new, what can I do to reach out? Because I know how that felt. Um, but here's another, like just small tidbit that I think has done really well with our ministry is Kevin and I are very real. Our kids are not all put together all the time. We're not afraid to share failures. Um, for us, that's gone really, really well. Of course, you have some people that are like, oh, well, I wouldn't do it that way. And that that's okay. Uh, we've been very real with our parenting. Um, and and just we make mistakes. And I think people connect well with that as well. Um, sometimes in churches, people think, oh, the staff has it all together. Uh, you know, I can't, I can't connect. Well, no, no, no. We have the same issues you do. And and it's important as a staff member, as a staff spouse, uh, just to be real with people. And that doesn't mean unfiltered. I do want to say that. I think sometimes we think, oh, if I have a negative thought, I just spew it because I'm being real. No, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. Uh, we live life and we're open about it. That doesn't mean negative. That means we're we just try to let people in so they can see what it looks like to live as Christians.

SPEAKER_01 15:29

I grew up in a household where, like you were saying, we had a small group. My parents had people that were there for us. Um, we never lived by family. So all of those people that were in my parents' lives were like my aunts and uncles and things like that. So we uh would even like name them. So when we moved there, I was like, okay, we gotta find our like Aunt Diane and our Aunt Um Pat. Like, who's who's gonna be your people? Like, do you mean and so we started like naming them and stuff? And um, we filled those voids because we're like, we know how to do that, we know how to build our own little like um not like our circle trust. Like, these are our people, like do you mean that are gonna we can go to that are I can um be like this is hard? They can just I can be real about it and they can um just pray over me and things like that. So we immediately once we realized okay, this is much harder than we like realized we had signed up for, I would thought it was gonna be all fun and excited the whole time. Like, do you mean like people are just dropping, like, love Jesus, love Jesus, love Jesus. But I was like, um, so like for me to realize, like, oh, okay, this is gonna take an army to get like surround me to be able to do this. So that was kind of what our first step would be like, okay, who's our people, who's putting in those positions?

SPEAKER_03 16:41

I concur with everything both of y'all have said. I was 19 also and thrown into this ministry world. Uh, and so yeah, it it's just a whole different ballgame, isn't it? But the thing is, you know, I think we had to figure that out too, and we came to the same conclusions. Um, I remember driving to church, uh, we were just married a couple months, and Sam was already a youth pastor at this church a couple months before we got married, and I came into the situation and uh and we literally said out loud, uh, we have to find friends. We we have to find friends. And uh the Lord really graciously uh answered that prayer for us and found a couple other couples that were kind of newly married and doing life and all that kind of stuff. And so we found some friends, uh, eventually got in a little bit of trouble for that, but because we had friends inside the church, let's just be honest. But um we didn't get in trouble. We were told we shouldn't have friends inside the church and all that kind of stuff. So that was a something to maneuver as somebody is probably listening, trying to figure out. But uh yeah, we it's just amazing that we need that God didn't make us to do this alone, right? Not even just with our spouse. There's the community that we that we need. And when you move away, we've done it a million times, and you don't know anybody. Uh, you really do have to just be that one to say, no, come on, let's go to lunch, come on over, let's do this, let's, and and it's hard for some people to do that with depending on their personality. So uh I always love the invite. I love that warm invite. And I think, sweet, you know, we got somebody that might love us here or something, you know, or might be our people. Let me ask this question as we're kind of going on through this, but um looking back, what helped you stay grounded um in who you are uh and not just what you do? Like, how did how did you guys not lose your ever loving mind? Um being newly married uh in seminary or in in ministry, uh, what helped you stay grounded? How did what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 18:48

Um, for me, I like I said, I worked a full-time teaching job for a long time. Um, I had a mom with cancer, I had four babies under six, similar to Dana. Um, and life was life was hard to balance for a while, um especially, you know, as responsibilities grew with the church. Um I I have said something the entire time we've been in ministry, and I will continue to say it for the rest of my life, that regardless if your occupation is at the church, you still have a calling on your life. Um, and that has looked different in different seasons. Um, when I was a stay-at-home mom, I felt called to my actual neighbors, which looked like play dates and taking walks and things that I wasn't used to because I worked full-time. And then when I taught school, I was called to reach the people that I taught next door to. And I think if you keep your calling front and center, then even the busyness and the chaos of church and life and marriage and kids, I know what my focus is each day. And that is to reach people that don't know Jesus, whether it's through our church or not, um, God has placed that on my life, and I believe He's placed that on all of our lives. Right. So just stay focused on that. Like there is mess, there's yuck, there's great, there's bad. Um, stay focused on your calling that God has placed on you.

SPEAKER_01 20:10

Yeah, I feel like we're very similar, but um the same thing, like working outside of church is always been um, I've never not worked outside church in different avenues. And um to me, that is my way to stay grounded of realizing I don't just get stuck up. That's not our only identity at this time, is to be new life's pastors. Like, do you mean like it's first to be like a follower of Jesus that wants to like um just love people? And so uh I think that has really helped us stay grounded, um, whether it's through like sports teams, like you said, like being on the sideline and like watching online, like do you mean like and trying to figure out different ways? Or right now I work one of my jobs is um at the airport, and so I work with a bunch of like big guys, like that are and we're like underneath the airplanes, we're like in them and we're tossing bags and everything's out there. And it's so funny because now, like I've been there a year, like almost two years, and every time I'm around, they're like, Oh, sorry, Dana, like or something, and now it's getting a little bit more of not just like oh sorry, I said a bad word, Dana. Like, do you mean? But now it's like, hey, like I need this. Do you have any book or you can tell me what to do? Or like my kids in this, like, can you tell me how to? So it's been to me, like that's what keeps us like not to get like in the trenches too much of how just ministry is hard, and just be like, uh, oh no, like I didn't realize what I signed up for. Do you mean like you're like, no, it's still such a beautiful thing, and it's not just the like silliness side that you have to deal with because that's just life. Like, do you mean there's the stuff you love doing, and then there's the stuff that's the busy that just isn't as life giving, but it helps it say life giving, I feel like it's just to stay grounded outside of the church and not just only be there all the time, and there's still like the Hudskoes outside of. New life.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I think too, I just to tack onto this. Um, when Kevin and I were first in ministry, um, I'm very extroverted, like I said, and I wanted to know everything that was going on. And uh sometimes that's a detriment to my view of the church and to my view of ministry because sometimes that negative, you know, I'm before I was a mama, I was mama bear to Kevin. And if somebody wasn't happy with Kevin, I'm not happy. Um, and that's not necessarily healthy. I'm not saying that's a great thing, but I had to learn that first of all, it's okay for me not to know everything. You know, if Kevin needs to share things with me, that's okay. And I needed to be okay with that. He he can protect me in those ways. But I tell our staff all the time one of the best tips a staff member can have, and spouse is listening, tell your spouse this. Your spouse that works at the church might come home and share the hard parts of their day. And if they do that, they also need to share the joys and the wins of ministry. Because if they only come home and tell you how hard this piece of their day was, that's all you know. And so instead of hearing the life transformation and the great things that happened in their day, you've heard a negative thing that then might make you a little bit sour. And it's important that we remember that there's so much good happening even in the midst of a mess. So if you're one that needs to know everything, or every time your spouse comes home from church, they're telling you, oh, this was so frustrating, just remind them, I want to hear the wins also. I want to hear the positives to keep me excited and excited about ministry as well.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

So with that, um, I wrote that down too, because there's two, that's kind of twofold. Like when they would he would come home and tell me something, because I do want to know everything. You mean I'm like, I'm smart, I can help you figure it out. Like, let's go word team. Like, do you mean? And so uh I wanted to know everything. Um, and then and I want to be a safe place to talk, but then I am definitely a mama bear too. So if some like he's like, Well, I met with this couple and he did this or something like that, and then I'm at church and I can't watch my face. I'm like, what did you do? I know you've been mean, like, we're gonna go talk because you told my husband, you were not nice to your wife, and we're about to have a talk. And I'm like, Oh, I can't do that. Like, it's not makes sense. I'm like, I can't actually go like be everyone's like mama bear, but like you said, I can be David's and I can't be my kid. Like, do you know what I mean? So he there is some things we have established now what Dana should know and what Dana is not allowed to know.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

So, what would you guys say? Uh, as we're talking about staff spouse life. Um, I think one of the reasons Debbie and I invited both of you guys specifically on for this session is we understand, uh at least I think, and you guys can make sure this is correct. Uh, as you guys, your church is looking to hire a pastor uh for whatever position, uh, you guys have conversations with their spouses, like, hey, are you all in, or what do you think of this? It's kind of like this or whatever. Uh, can you give give us a little bit of what that looks like, uh, which I think is great because um maybe in our our experience, we we have maybe missed that a little bit. Uh, not that anything horribly bad happened, but you know, we could have done better uh with that. Uh, and I just think that's a really wise thing as we're talking about, you know, nobody really helped us give us an idea of what it was going to be like. And but yet you guys are like, okay, we'd want you to know this or that or the other. Um give us a little bit of what that looks like, maybe from both of your perspectives and how you encourage them or what you warn them about, or just anything like that. What's that look like?

SPEAKER_01 25:50

I feel like this is something we've talked a lot about. Um, is just we've seen so many spouses, like we say spouses will make or break your ministry. So, first of all, like choose wisely, even if it's like it's people we know called the ministry and they're looking for like the spouse and all of that. We're like, know that they're your partner ministry, they're your support, they're your person, they're the ones that like are you like better together and God can use you better together than you are separate.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Yeah, actually, um, this is the craziest thing that you guys asked me on this podcast because a Jill knows that for a few years, God has placed on my heart um to reach out to staff spouses, pastor spouses. In fact, on my big audacious prayer for this year, our church does a prayer at the end of the year. It was God position me to be able to mentor and pour into staff spouses. And that's exactly what my whole goal for this year is, which is so exciting. Um, but here's what I would say um when we interview staff spouses, which I try to always have them as a part as well, uh, I want them to know that I care for them. I care for their family. And this is more than a job because when you enter our staff, you're entering our family. So I want to know if your kids are sick. I want to know if you've had really hard days at work. Um, I view that as part of my role. And this isn't just a lead pastor wife thing. This this could be any staff spouse that this is this is now our our group, our family. And so um, you know, we just do little things for each other that just show that we care. And uh it's not that we don't care for the rest of the congregation. Don't hear me like that. And whether you have a spouse or a staff of two, you probably have volunteers at your church. So let's let's think about that. Even if you're at a church that doesn't have a paid staff, you still have people that pour into your church that are volunteers and they matter too, and they have spouses. Um, this is just a whole trickle effect of ways that we can breathe life into people and be real and and be able to walk through ministry and hard things together is so important. So I so I always tell them, I say, guess what? When you come on staff, you we don't have an expectation. The only thing I ask is that you be open and honest and that you love Jesus. Like that's it. I'm not gonna call you if you miss a service. I'm not gonna say, why is your son wearing ball shorts? Because guess what? My son's wearing ball shorts too. But that's that's not, I'm we're not policing you. And and if maybe if you're in a situation that is, that might be time for just an open, honest conversation with your lead pastors saying, hey, this is a lot of pressure. And I didn't know I was signing up for this. And I I'd love to know like your expectations, and it's just about communicating that because I I don't ever want a staff spouse to feel like they dread coming to church. I I don't want that. I I want them to be excited, and and we've served at places that maybe is not a place I would have picked. Is that okay for me to say? Yeah, it might not have been my pick, but God has placed us there for a reason. And it's time to adjust my attitude, adjust my mood when I'm driving into the church of God has placed us, and we're gonna do the best we can right here.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

With the two, um, we I know you do this a lot, Bethany. We invite all of our spouses to any like lunch we do. We tell them, like, anytime you feel like you're like feeling disconnected or whatever, you want to come to any of the staff meetings, come to any of them. Because some of it is the disconnect is just communication. And the staff member doesn't want to go home and keep giving more information and talking about the all the calendar stuff that they just sat in, like all these meetings in, right? So we're like, hey, we just tried to open any door possible to involve them. We started this call, we called it like um what is it called? Oh, spirit squad. So our spirit squad is our staff just puts every kid's schedule into a teams, and we literally just all show up to go to the game. So we could have 30 people to like 50, and we tell anyone, we're like, hey, we're going to this game, anyone want to come with us, whatever. So we just started doing that because we knew how what it meant having a kid in sports. And when we were gone one time, we were at the Cook Cruise, and we were like, It is a big game, and our son is like so sad that we were not there. We're like, could some of you just show up and be there at this game? Whatever. No joke. There was like 50 people in the stance, like they were telling everyone there were signs everywhere, whatever. And but he was just like, Oh, like that was cool that you did that, whatever. But his team was like, How do you get that? Like, my parents don't even come to our games, your parents' friends came to our your game. Like, do you mean they're like, What in the world? So it like just open so many doors with that. But I we I talk about this in kids' ministry when you love kids, someone's kids, you've like you you become their person. Like, do you mean like if we're not ever gonna be friends, but you love my children, you already have like a spot at the table. Do you mean like because I everyone wants their kids loved and seen, so that to me is just such an easy way to, like you said, we're gonna we want to know when they're sick, we want to know those things. So, um, and probably just growing up as a sports family, sports was like a natural way for us to do that, but not everyone wants to be on that type of staff, like you know what I mean. Like we've had many staff be like, this is not I don't I don't want to go to my own kids' games, Danny.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

I don't know that I want to go to everybody else's.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

No, but they were just like and not even the games part. They were just like, I love that you guys want to be family, but that's just not us. Like, we have family all here. We don't want one more thing to go to. And I'm like, that's fine, but know that like you have a seat at the table kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

I love that. So those are great tools for anyone listening. I love just the different tools asking maybe the senior pastor or whoever's in charge of the staff, um, how do we include the spouses so they feel like they're a part of it? Because that's the piece where you if you feel isolated, you start to dislike the church because really you just feel lonely and left out. Um, and for those of you that are sports fans, I absolutely love the idea of that calendar, knowing when all the kids are playing and to show up. And I might be a little bit like Bethany that was I struggled at some of my own kids' games, but Dana is a huge sports fan, but that is beautiful. All right, one last closing thought, and then we're gonna end this episode.

SPEAKER_01 32:19

So anything you would like to say to a staff wife just starting out, a staff spouse, not there's men and women out there, so I would say the thing that like pops in my head for this one is kind of what we were talking about. Don't um wait to be invited. Does it make sense? Like ask to join it, like be like, don't be a part of the problem, be part of the solution. Like, do you mean like figure out how to be a part of it and what it looks like? Because if when you're in ministry long enough, you realize everyone is has expectations on the staff, everyone is like waiting for them to reach out and them to do this and them to do that. Don't as a spouse, don't be one more of those people. Like, do you mean asking them to be the one that has to reach out? Be like that, don't give one more expectation to them, I guess. Um, be the spouse that's like, no, I'm going to get involved. I'm not gonna wait for someone to reach out. I'm not gonna wait for someone to invite me to dinner. Like, be proactive in um just trying to bridge that gap, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 33:25

Um, I think I would say that you need somebody. And I think that's the cool thing about what Jill and Debbie are starting here is um I'm all for having friends in the church, but I think it's very important to get somebody that understands your position. Um, I'm blessed with the world's greatest sister-in-law who's also a pastor's wife in Ohio. Last night we talked for 30 minutes. Hey, this was really hard this week. Um, somebody said something that was really hurtful. We can cheer each other on. Uh, don't pick another Eeyore. Don't pick somebody that's gonna say, Oh, you're right. That's terrible. Get out of there. No, no, no, no, no, no. Pick somebody intentionally that's gonna speak life into you, that's gonna empathize, but then tell you, you've got this. Um, and and not your spouse. And I'm kind of being serious about that. Pick somebody else that you can say, hey, this was really hard for me. Um, in fact, there's women here. I have several pastors' wives that I mentor. Find somebody to connect with that can understand what you're going through, but also encourage you through that season.

SPEAKER_03 34:31

Uh, you know, I sometimes there was different seasons in my life. We don't need to go into all that, but it's sometimes I felt like I needed to find somebody outside the church that was in ministry that was about 10 to 12 years ahead of me because that was normal, you know, or just kind of doing it well, at least in my perspective, you know, from my small little perspective. Uh, I I reached out to two different women at two different times to say, hey, could I just reach out to you monthly? And could you just kind of be my sounding board? And they both were just beautiful about it. And um, we even met for one of them was close to me or whatever for lunch or coffee or whatever. It really does. You need somebody to speak life into you. And and sometimes you'll say, Hey, that might be a good idea, but have you thought about this, you know, or think around the corner on that, or what what what will the ripple effects be of this, you know, kind of thing. Uh, and it was just really stretched me. Uh, it still stretches me. So uh it's just a really good thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Well, ladies, thank you for joining us this morning on Beside Every Calling. And we have a whole lot more. I think this the four of us could chat for seven days on a cruise ship and not quit talking. So we have a lot of laughter and fun. So thank you, thank you for joining. And if you've enjoyed this conversation, please share it with another ministry spouse that's out there. And you might really enjoy the next conversation where we're gonna talk about the transition from being a spouse of on staff with your husband or the staff or or husband or wife on staff to the senior pastorate, which really or at least for me and Scott was a huge transition. So, friends, thank you for listening to Beside Every Calling, where identity is formed beside the call and not lost within it. We hope you'll join us for the next episode. If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like were they sitting in my living room this week familiar? That's your sign. Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today. And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review? It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community. We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.