Beside Every Calling | Episode 10: When Church Relationships Hurt

This is a space for those walking beside a calling—where identity is formed beside it, not lost within it.

In this honest and deeply personal conversation, Debbie and Jill talk about one of the hardest realities of ministry life—painful and complicated relationships within the church.

Drawing from decades of ministry experience, they share personal stories of betrayal, bullying, isolation, counseling, and healing. They also talk about the emotional and physical toll unhealthy relationships can take—and why seeking support is not weakness, but wisdom.

Through it all, this episode offers hope, practical encouragement, and a reminder that you do not have to walk through difficult seasons alone.

If you’ve ever questioned yourself, carried silent hurt, or struggled through painful church relationships, this conversation is for you.

Want to connect with us or share your story?
Email us at: besideeverycalling@gmail.com

Table Talk Questions:
1. Have you experienced a difficult or hurtful relationship in ministry life that still affects you today?
2. What healthy boundaries might help protect your emotional and spiritual well-being in this season?
3. Is there someone safe you can talk honestly with about what you are carrying?
4. What would it look like to prioritize healing instead of simply enduring?
5. How can you and your spouse better care for yourselves during difficult ministry seasons?

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it. If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm. Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way. So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode. Hi friends, and welcome to Beside Every Collie. I'm Debbie Daniels. And I'm Jill Barber. And we are really glad you're listening wherever you are. I invite you to get your favorite cup of coffee or tea, like Jill, or whatever your beverage of choice is in your comfy clothes, and sit down and listen. Because today we kind of have a heavy topic, but I think it's one that we really want to talk about. Because in our podcast, we hope to talk about the things you haven't had a space to share or talk about for ministry leaders. And this is a safe space.

SPEAKER_00 1:03

We really, we just need to talk about this topic because it is a thing that nobody talks about. It's when church relationships really get hard. Let me let me just read this small little paragraph to open it up for us. We want to talk about something every ministry spouse will experience at some point, which is sad to say. Yes, you know, but it's so true. Um, hard relationships within the church. Not because anyone set out to hurt anyone, but because ministry involves people, expectations, emotions, and sometimes misunderstanding. And I think I could say a hearty amen after 36 years or currently in ministry in a lot of different places and a lot of different things. It can come out of the blue and then it can just it can just hurt like a dog. Right. But yeah, church relationships can get hard.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

And I think what makes this especially difficult in ministry is that we don't often have the freedom to process it openly. Um process it quietly. We don't want to talk about it. We we're in church with these people, and these moments we begin to question ourselves am I seeing it wrong? What's happening? Wondering if you were constantly the one doing the wrong thing, or did I hear that correctly? And so those, we're just gonna talk about that today. Just those rough relationships and how did you navigate them? And I know Jill and I have both had had that happen in church ministry. And even for those of us that aren't no longer in local ministry, sometimes it's at a higher level that you have an awkward relationship with someone and you still have to do ministry with them and show up in meetings with them. Um yeah. Jill, do you want to share a time in your life where there was an awkward relationship and how did you navigate it?

SPEAKER_00 3:00

Well, I don't know if I navigated it well. Let me just say that. There's been a few. Honestly, let me just say this. I think I was a little naive coming into ministry with Sam. And, you know, I guess I just assumed, let me just say that. I didn't even know I assumed us had this assumption, but I assumed that if you were a board member, you were one of the most spiritual people in the church, you know, closest to God, whatever, do it, walk in his way, be informed by him, the whole thing. And there was just a few different situations where I just got kind of blindsided, like, what? What? He or she said, what? And they feel what way? You know, I won't get into the details of it, but I think, I think from my young just didn't really realize, I guess I should say. And I grew up in the church. I, you know, I have we have different stories, I know, but I grew up in the church and I didn't hear mom and dad talking about necessarily anything that would have warned me about anything, you know, or whatever. It was just you just they dealt with it, I'm sure, on their level. And then I was just like, what is happening? And so the a relationship or a it got strained because of different things. And then what happens is like you said, we don't have anywhere to voice it. And even at even at a younger age, I did know I shouldn't call up. There was no cell phones back then, but I shouldn't call up somebody in the church and start talking about this. I knew that within my body and my soul because then you become what I call a potster, you know. You you can make, you can aggregate it, you can make it worse. Right. And you just don't want to do that. Although people within the church sometimes do that, you know, they kind of get their gang around them and they all are gossiping or just whatever that feels like or happens. And I knew I didn't have, I knew I wasn't supposed to do that. Of course, I Sam and I were navigating all of this together and with prayer. And somehow graciously we got through it. I don't know how exactly. There's been other times that even more hurtful things have happened to us. Again, we won't go into the details, but it was kind of out of the blue and it was a shocker. And it and it hurt, it hurt deeply, and we were so shocked that again, you don't always know, you don't want to just talk about it or whatever. But we knew that we needed somebody else other than ourselves to talk to and to try to maneuver through it. And did I did are we taking that the right way? What was that, you know, all that kind of stuff. And so Sam and I, we went to counseling. Like, I think we went like six or eight times to this wonderful Christian counselor that didn't know e either side, you know, it didn't know anybody, was not a part of our church, kind of just really removed from the whole situation. And and he really gave us some tools to use, some things to think about. And honestly, going to counseling was was one of the best things we've done in our 36 years. Right. It really, it really did help us a lot. Not that we were on the brink of making any kind of crazy decision, but we were just we were with a walking wounded. And how do you minister to a flock and how do you give all the time to different people that you're responsible for? You get depleted way easier, at least for us, we did. When we started going to counseling and realizing that we weren't as crazy as what we thought we were, and you know, there was some tools to use and to maneuver through this situation. In in all graciousness, again, the the one that wounded left. We won't talk about how or what that looked like, but that wasn't bad. For us, uh to say the least, that was okay because, you know, it was just another part of the healing thing for us. The people that have wounded us, they grow, they grow spiritually as well. And they they maybe they're doing better wherever they are now, you know, and I hope so. But it I don't have to be best friends with them.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

Removing yourself from toxic relationships is key in you do not have to keep putting up with that. And the spouse is looking and listening. If you know, it just makes me think of one spouse I knew where it was actually her husband. And if that is something, I want you to talk to your district superintendent, talk to a therapist, talk to someone to get the help you need because it's not okay. We don't have to stay in unhealthy, toxic, demeaning relationships. My I shared in one of our last episodes about friendship, and one the first one was a friendship that we'd been friends with the family for over a year, and then my husband preached on something she didn't like, and our friendship was I got zero collisure, like never again, not a text, not anything. And our sons were best friends, so it became really crazy. And it was just so shocking. But I had I could let that one go. But then we also had a situation at a church where I just came in the wrong package, like being from California wasn't really acceptable. And for some reason, this person just didn't like me. And I over time it just became to where I physically would have to pull over and throw up on my way to church because I physically didn't want to go there. Yeah, and I did get counseling, which was huge because one night, I'll never forget this. I thought my only way out of this situation is death. And I knew I'm smart enough to know that's not a good option.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:57

I actually shared with Scott, and he was, I was so happy. He just held me and was my husband and not my pastor.

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

And then when I told him all the stuff, he saw all the stuff. And I did start seeing a counselor that saved me, and it took way more than six weeks, two and a half years. And she said to me one of the most profound things, like on the second time, first the first time I couldn't even talk about it because it's so private. And I was so like, Why is this bothering me? I'm a grown woman. But she said, Debbie, it's like death by a thousand paper cuts, just one more, one more. Every time I would go to church, she would say something so ugly, like, Oh, your coat has to match your shoes. And I wanted to say, Well, why don't you shower? But you can't say that as the pastor. Oh, I know. But I wanted to, yeah. It was really putting daggers in my heart and my self-doubt over. And I think back to that still to this day and think, man, it's so tainted my love for this church. And it was really two people bullying me, which I didn't even know bullying happened at the adult level. Like I didn't experience it in school, yeah. But looking back on it, I see how God has used it in my life. Uh, I was much better at helping Sophie navigate some stuff because of what I had experienced. Yeah, I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Yeah. And I would say, if there's a you don't have to keep putting up with it. Like, especially where, like even Scott said, don't come for a while because I literally would throw up. And when you're physically reacting to people being mean to you, yeah, that is too toxic and it's time to get help.

unknown 10:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

So you can't keep doing it. So hear us saying, get help and don't let the finances stop you. Again, if you're a part of the Nazarene denomination, we have resources that will help you. We do have funds, and each of the universities have funds to help pastors and spouses get emotionally healthy. I don't think we talk about it enough. We just let people get wounded and leave ministry. But I will say I'm a much better ministry spouse now because of it. And I watch out for other spouses because of that. So I have learned a lot about myself, but I will tell you, it's the hard work getting healthy. It is easy to say suck and then you get bitter. And I was like, no, this person is not going to be the end of me. And that was the piece. I didn't want my family to have to put up with that. I still, you know, I joke, don't say this name in my house or something. So I probably could use some more therapy. But I do, I think I'm in a better space about it. And something I really want to talk about it with people to help because it might might be more prevalent than I think. Uh, I'd only experienced it once, and truly, it was just because of my culture. She didn't like what I represented. And yeah, the way I dressed, it was just silliness, silly, crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah. You know, I think as a pastor's spouse, you you almost learn to walk around holding not only things in, but being it almost becomes okay to you gather those negative things. You know, one little thing here, one little thing here from different about different subjects, about maybe even what I'm wearing, you know, just what you just you get it, and it's not everybody all. I don't want to generalize that at all because there's really wonderful encouraging people. But at the same time, it takes so many statements of encouragement to downplay one negative, stupid little thing. You know, I we at one of our churches, we had a beautiful way of leaving the sanctuary. Sam would usually have someone pray or whatever, and he and I would walk to the back. There was only like one interest in and out of this one place, which was it worked great if you wanted to see your people. So we would kind of de-greet everybody, you know, we just loved that. But one and I, and you know, I have the routine, I guess, in my life of letting my hair grow and then I cut it all off and let it grow and I cut it all off. You know, it was one of those weeks where I just cut it all off, you know, kind of thing. We were back there, and this lady who not not really a great friend, but a good woman, you know, yeah, didn't have a filter that day, it seemed like. And she just she grabbed my hand, she said, I really like your hair better the other way.

SPEAKER_01 13:16

Oh, and that's why I keep my hairs for you.

SPEAKER_00 13:18

I know, exactly. And I I was like, What? You know, and that seemed like nothing, but when you you don't know what I'm carrying already, and on the wrong day, it's the final day. Yes, I mean not on Sunday, thank you very much. It's like just little things like that. Oh, and then at a whole nother place. I know this is going down a rabbit trail, but a whole nother place. It was almost a joke. I got to to where it was a joke. I I like dress pants a lot. I'm a dress pant suit kind of woman. I just kind of have developed into that. Every once in a while I wear a skirt, you know, that but that's just who I am. That I I used my business clothes that I went to work in all week as my Sunday clothes, you know, kind of thing, and it just worked out great. Well, every time, or let me say, any time I had a skirt on, this one particular lady, this is no joke. I can't even I know her. This is mine. Yeah, yeah, you can't make this stuff up. Any Sunday I had a skirt on, this one particular lady would come up and hug me and tell me how much she loves me. So we were on our way to church, and I kind of had picked up on this little thing that was happening, and I had a skirt on and I said, Sam, so-and-so's gonna hug me. And lo and behold, I wore pants the next Sunday and didn't see. She wouldn't even, she wouldn't even shake my hand, you know, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_01 14:41

To be grateful, Jill, you don't live with her. Can you live in a family?

SPEAKER_00 14:45

No, I don't want to live with her, and I, you know, I just don't want to be locked in a room with her because I my filter is gonna go down sometime and it's not gonna that's not gonna be nice. And I don't want to be mean, but anyway, yeah, exactly. It's just but I say all those stupid little things, those couple little things that seem very minimal by themselves. Yes. But you don't understand all the stuff that he or she is carrying and maneuvering in that time that you just walk into a service and have no no, you know, you don't you aren't involved in the production of the service or who's doing what, or even praying over the message, or you don't understand what's happening with this family right behind us, or you know, you don't understand over here, or somebody just said this to us, or just whatever. And that's why I just feel like encouragement, please, if you if you know, even as a pastor spouse, I know I try to, you know, encourage people, but sometimes I just don't have it to give because you're just a tough week that week for you. This is a tough week, exactly. So it I if you're listening to this and you've got those kind of things being said to you, just it the best you can. Don't take them personally, just don't take them personally. I I I have, I do, and I am doing my best not to anymore because they it's like they just see you in the moment and they don't think about anything else. It's all about whatever their care is, whatever their mouth opens and says, and it and it and it just piles on, like you said, it's one after another.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

I think it's important that we remember the church is full of people. People hurt people. Our churches are full of dysfunctional people if we're doing our jobs right, right? We're bringing in and accept introducing them to Christ, and then it's a process to let God bring that healing. And we're working with them in that process, and sometimes they're so unhealthy, and we're the one they lash out at. But I also want to say in that it doesn't mean it's okay for you to have to endure a thousand paper cuts. You need to get the help you need to stay healthy, and you know when it's reaching a point. Like I mine was obvious that night. Like, oh, Debbie, this isn't good. And even my counselor had said to me, You've just stuffed for so long, there's nowhere to put this anymore. And that was then wow, you know. But she Lynn was amazing. If email me, if you live near Boise, Idaho, I have a great therapy place at Tree City Church of the Nazarene has amazing Christian therapists, and I can't recommend them enough. But there are wonderful Christian therapists, and sometimes, especially for spouses, you have to find someone who doesn't know you or your spouse was key for me. Unfortunately, later she did figure out who my husband was, but it's still our relationship had started, and I felt very safe once she even knew that. And then finances, you know, again, don't be stuck because of the money. Let us figure out a way to get you the help you need. And you know when it's reaching that point because you kind of want to it. I always say the enemy's at work when you think I can't tell anyone. Like this is just too painful. I can't. That is no, if the you feel like you have to hide it, you need to get help with it. At least one person needs to know what you're going through so that you aren't carrying that load alone.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Yeah. And you know, there's I I don't know if this is the right terminology or not, but there's what we have called the church boss, you know, so to speak, that has always been there, grew up there, maybe their family started the church, you know, all the stuff that you have to maneuver as a pastor and a pastor spouse and all of that. And if that person, you know, I don't know why that came to mind, maybe somebody's dealing with that, but that person doesn't need to be your bully. That that that person is not the church boss, you know, they can be a part of the conver congregation. That's that is not a healthy relationship. We've run into a few of those. We've run into, you know, different people that think they have ownership over whatever. We've run into different staff members that, you know, just don't fit, you know, and just and become ugly or whatever. But I I just say all of that to say there's so much there's so many. Let me say that. There's so many places and so many different kinds of people that can bring hurt. And as a pastor spouse, and even as a pastor, you know, you you deal with it in the moment, but you have to look out for yourself. You know, what we're on airplanes all the time now, and you know, they say a million times, put your own oxygen mask on before you help even your child or someone beside you, because you have to be healthy before you can help somebody else. And so that's that is really what happened for us when we went to counseling. We literally said, okay, we we don't have anything else to give. So anyway, to take care of yourself. And that's a hard thing to do. That's a hard thing to do. And like you said, if there's money issues, call your DS, email us, we will find your DS, we will find somebody, even if you're not in the Nazarene church, we'll we'll find something for you. But it is it is crucial, not only for your personal health and well-being, but oh for your marriage, for you for that and for your family, beyond your church family, just you know, the people, your your unit for you to be healthy. And it's it's hard. It is definitely hard to do that.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

But the best gift you could give not only yourself, your husband or wife if you're a male spouse listening, but also the church and your and your children is you getting healthy. There are a lot of wounded people walking around because it is work getting healthy, but you will feel so good on the other side of it. That's like you get your power back. Like for me, it's just like, oh my land, I I could talk about this like with you over coffee without being in a Zoom where people are listening. And I love Bethmore. Years ago in one of her studies, I heard her say, you want you can't talk about a wound because it's still open and hurts when you talk about it. Yeah, but it's a scar, and you could talk about it. It's always going to be a part of my story. Yeah. Now I could talk about it and I don't want to cry, I don't feel shame, I don't feel embarrassed. And so I think your goal is to get to that part of it. No matter where you are in the United States, I mean, really around the world, we have school universities, and they will have a department there. Contact them and say, hey, I've heard about you guys and I need help. You know, because we want to get you that help. And if you are in the Church of the Nazarene, then your first step is really your district superintendent. Talk to that spouse or the district superintendent, and they will have resources. I know Point Loma has an amazing program. Yep. Down in San Diego. So if you happen to be on the West Coast, that's a good one. But I'm guessing all the universities probably have something like that. And that would be a great first step if you don't feel comfortable. Hopefully, you might even have a Christian counseling center somewhere in your town that is going to be the good resource. But I completely understanding wanting it to be someone who doesn't know you or your spouse. And that was really important for me too.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

All right, Debbie. So to wrap this up, let me ask you this question. Somebody's listening and they are just one of the walking wounded. And they're and they're doing their best just to try to make it through the day. And maybe something was even happening today, or was texted or emailed them today, or all that kind of stuff. What would you say to these sweet people?

SPEAKER_01 22:49

All right, first crawl in bed with cheesy chips, ruffles, cheesy chips. 10 minutes, eat as many cheesy chips as you want. And then you've got to make a decision to get healthy. And if your first is just praying for me, asking God, lead me, Holy Spirit, I'm trusting you to get me to the next step. Yeah, and the next step. And then you have to be brave to share one share with one person so someone knows the freedom I had once the enemy took got losses of third because I told Scott that was in amazing. And then I shared with my kids, and that has was a gift, but you can't keep it isolated and alone because then the enemy has all the room to keep spreading lies and make you feel shameful and stuck, and no, there's no way out. There's always a way out. So then just being brave enough to get the help you need. And on the other side of it, you are going to look back and think, I can't believe I did this. I was so brave. But that first step, and I joke about the cheesy chips, but I also think there is, it's okay to lament with God and tell him how bad it is. And this really sucks. And my hurt is so much, I don't know if I can bear it. And then mine would be moving, share with at least one person, and then slowly start getting the help that you need.

SPEAKER_00 24:09

Mine would not be cheesy chips, even though I would eat those. I would probably go something on the chocolate route. Oreos, eat as many Oreos as you want. That was usually. But yeah, I would say, first of all, I would say to them, I'm so sorry that you are dealing with this. I I I wish I could take all those people and all the hurtful things that have even been said to me and to us over our 36 years of ministry, respectfully, and and just take it and wipe it away. And and just I wish because you're serving in ministry that you would never be hurt. Sorry. That's that is the hardest of hard to do.

unknown 25:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Yeah. And I just want to add, don't let the pain get the last word. Let grace and healing get the last word.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:15

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Uh I'm so sorry because we have been there. You know, we one of the times that we were so, so hurt, Sam said, I just, if the Lord will allow me, I'm just gonna go dig ditches. You know, so I can just see what I did today. I don't need anybody around me. I'm just gonna dig a ditch. It's gonna be my job. And nobody needs to give their opinions of me, nobody needs to do anything. I'm just gonna dig a ditch. And sadly, that's not what the Lord called him to. But you know, if you are hurting, I just I just hurt for you. You know, I'm so sorry. Yeah. That ministry causes hurt in such a deep way that you you are so discouraged or you're so you think the only way out is death. That that is not from the Lord. There are many ways out. And just what Debbie said, you know, eat your snack and tell one person. Tell one person and just let the Lord slowly heal you. And if it's a toxic situation, I will say this if you are a part of a smaller church, and if these people are inside your church, don't go for a while. Don't go. That's it. Yeah. Yeah, it you have to do that. You have to remove yourself. If it's that toxic and if that hurtful, and there's no way to want, you know, one of our situations was a very small church, and so there was no way to not feed this, these people. And one of our situations was a larger church where it was a grace thing that we could maneuver around and not have to fellowship necessarily with that, those people, so to speak. But if you are in a small church and you can't get away, you you just need to step out. You you need to you need to not be there. Talk to your district superintendent, let them help you again get with not only counseling, but just a protection. Get let somebody else know what's happening inside your church because it's not worth you. It's not worth, it's not worth it. The Lord is one of the things is he is our healer, and he can, and he has healed us, and he can heal you.

SPEAKER_01 27:42

Amen. And just a closing thought. I had written this down as we knew it would be a tough topic. And I get I hope most of you don't even relate to this. Yeah, yeah. I hope most don't, but we do know we've been in the church long enough, Jill and I, over three decades, and sometimes ministry is painful. But hard relationships are a part of ministry life, but they don't have to define you or discourage you. With wisdom, boundaries, and grace, it is possible to stay open-hearted while also protecting your peace. But you do have to be brave enough to get help if you're in one of those wounded spaces. So know that we love you and thank you for listening to Beside Every Calling. And share this episode, especially if you know of a wounded friend out there, because it is a tough season, especially if they feel alone. So blessings on you and know that we love you and see you, and we're glad you're part of this community. Yeah. If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like, were they sitting in my living room this week familiar? That's your sign. Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today. And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take 30 seconds and leave us a review? It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community. We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.