Black Maternity Natters: Trailer

Welcome to a special taster episode of a new strand of our West Side Stories podcast. 

The incredible Black Maternity Matters Collaborative came into being back in 2022, inspired by the vision that one day, Black mothers will no longer be disproportionately in danger during pregnancy and the first year after birth. Statistics show that Black women are significantly more likely to die in childbirth than white women, and their babies are more likely to be stillborn. 

Our Senior Project Manager, Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini, and Clinical Lead, Ann Remmers, are here to tell you more about the work of the collaborative and what you can expect from future episodes of Black Maternity Natters.

Find out more about Black Maternity Matters here.

Connect with Black Maternity Matters on socials: Instagram and LinkedIn

Got feedback or an idea for a future programme? 

Contact us at healthinnowest.communications@nhs.net or via our socials: Instagram, LinkedIn or Bluesky

Find out more about Health Innovation West of England

Transcript

Vanesther Hamer Hello, I'm Vanesther Hamer from Health Innovation West of England, and welcome to a special taster episode of a new strand for our West Side Stories podcast. The incredible Black Maternity Matters Collaborative came into being back in 2022, inspired by the vision that one day, Black mothers will no longer be disproportionately in danger during pregnancy and the first year after birth. Statistics show that Black women are significantly more likely to die in childbirth than white women, and their babies are more likely to be stillborn. 

Over to Noshin and Ann to tell you more about the work of the collaborative and what you can expect from future episodes of Black Maternity Natters.

Ann Remmers Hello everyone. I'm Ann Remmers. I'm the clinical lead for Black Maternity Matters, and I'm delighted to be here today to introduce Black Maternity Natters. 

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini Hi everyone. I'm Noshin and I'm part of the Black Maternity Matters Collaborative, and I'm really excited that we are launching Black Maternity Natters to feature lots of our friends and people that we collaborate with across the country.

So this is the story of Black Maternity Matters and how it's become what it has today. And along the way, we're going to feature friends, colleagues, people who have really helped us build and a really contributing to the cause of making birth safer for women and people racialised as Black and their babies. Um, so yeah, Ann I guess you and I have been in this from the very beginning, from day one. Um, from that first conversation we had with Black Mothers Matter. 

Ann Remmers Yeah, it's, it's been quite a journey, hasn't it really, when you, when you look back to, to where we started and, um, just talking about it now is just making me think about those early conversations. And the whole idea of Black Maternity Matters just came out of, of speaking to people, listening to people, finding people that, really were interested, in, in making a difference. I think the thing that really, really struck home was we work in a patient safety team and the, uh, statistics for, uh, women racialised as Black in, in their outcomes for maternity care and for their babies was, was just appalling. And it didn't seem to be shifting, did it? Yeah.

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini And it's not, it wasn't new news. So the MBRRACE report would come out. Um, you know, periodically and people would look at it and go, that's awful. But then that wouldn't change into any action within the NHS, I mean, because obviously, um Black maternal health, there are so many incredible people who've been doing this for years but I just remember us saying, why isn't this a patient safety issue? Why isn't this being viewed as seriously as it needs to be? Mmm.

Ann Remmers So I think we were very aware that there was lots of training for NHS staff teaching them about the impact of racism in, in maternity care. There were workshops and, um, one day training and people were putting it into their mandatory training, but looking at the outcomes and then the experience that, that women were reporting and we had a number of reports Birthrights report and Five X More report that were showing that experiences weren't changing, were they?

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini And I think we realised quite quickly that whilst the training, you know, in many forms was out there, it wasn't holding people to account. It was very much about these are the outcomes, these are the experiences, which of course are so important. But it wasn't about holding people in a space where they looked at how they were showing up in the care they were providing, how they were perhaps perpetuating, um, the hurt and harm that operating in a system that is fundamentally, you know, systemically built that way. And, you know, was, was kind of facilitating these poorer outcomes, these unacceptable outcomes. And, and we were so lucky that round the corner in Bristol, three incredible women who didn't have enough to do on their maternity leave during lockdown decided to launch Black Mothers Matter. So Aisha, Sonah and Yomi, three university best friends, all women, racialised as Black, all either on their first, second or third pregnancies in response to what they were hearing and seeing about Black maternal outcomes decided to build from the ground this incredible organisation, which now has grown to be a real player on the stage of kind of supporting and advocating and campaigning for Black women and their babies.

Ann Remmers I think it was you, Noshin, that had those early conversations, you know, really asking them what they thought would make a difference, um, to, to how women racialised as Black would experience maternity care. Uh, I can't remember which one of them it was that said, um, if you are thinking of developing something like an education programme, because that's where our thoughts were going at that stage, wasn't it? What, what could we develop? It needs to be something that actually turns the learning into change, so that people that are working in perinatal services are really starting to look at the difference that could be made to somebody's experience in a very positive way, and that would start to change things. And that's where the whole kind of concept of the Black Maternity Matters programme was that this needs to be deep education, it needs to be experts in in anti-racist education who deliver this training, but it also needs to have support for people undertaking the programme to be able to put that that change into something very concrete when they when they go back to work.

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini Yeah, totally. And I think that is where particularly Aisha, as a local GP trained in Bristol, went to university in Bristol for her medical degree kind of really switched the light on for us because she was saying, you know, I'm out here, I'm trying to collaborate with systems. I've got really good contacts, friends, colleagues working in the local hospitals, but I just can't get into that space where they want to work together to, to do something like this. And, and you were making me reflect Ann because at the time, and this just shows how much things have moved on and how much learning and the kind of journey we've all gone on. We were still calling it cultural competency training, I guess where we were in our planning and building. We we didn't even think that naming it and calling it anti-racism was where we needed to be. So, um, yeah, it's a little trip down memory lane, isn't it, in terms of how much the programme has matured?

Ann Remmers Definitely, definitely.

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini So we made friends with Black Mothers Matter. We had a seed of an idea. And then, uh, reality hit and we really quickly realized we needed anti-racist equity specialists to do this because otherwise we'd just be repeating kind of what was happening already. And again, fortuitously, our organisation had been working with, again, two other incredible women, local women and Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi from BCohCo and Aisha Thomas from Representation Matters. And they'd been working with us looking at our own equality, diversity and inclusion within our team. And we just asked them to have a chat with us and we explained the concept and they were on board from the minute we explained what our goal was and the way that we wanted to do it. And it was then that it really took shape. So we went to them with the concept of this kind of deep dive over time, but that really turned into action. And that really kind of lit a fire under them. And we originally thought that it would be six months of six in-person days, really holding people in that space where they could really go into it. Um, and then this is where the beauty of working in this kind of multidisciplinary cross kind of specialist team comes in because Ann, who is really well respected and known within maternity and neonatal services, said, hang on a minute. Let's, let's bring people together to have this conversation before we build this programme and say, now, can you send your teams on it? So and you want to talk about kind of that thought process?

Ann Remmers Yes, definitely. Um, we realised that the potential difficulty of releasing staff for a six month programme, so it had to be something that people felt was really going to make a difference and they could really invest in. So we had many, many conversations with some of the, the leaders and managers within perinatal services. Um, it was at a time when we were coming out of the pandemic. So things were particularly difficult in terms of managing services and managing to release staff. Um, but what we wanted to do was to really have the, the, the organisations themselves were part of our collaborations and together we would develop this programme. We really were delighted that we had organisations within our local area who were happy to sign up to, to undergoing a pilot. Our local ICB and local maternity and neonatal system supported us. Um, and we also were fortunate that we got some Health Foundation funding as well for the pilot. So that really, really helped us to, to set us on our way.

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini So while we're on this trip down memory lane. We've spoken a lot about kind of how we got to the point where we were ready to press go on that first pilot, and that was 2022, and I think we had 17 midwives at that point who were brave enough to come on board and do something that they didn't know about, and then really gave themselves over to the process. And I remember you and I, Ann, we were sitting outside the room, and when our first team of Black Maternity Matters participants were in with Katie and Aisha, and that first tea break, when they all came out, the energy was incredible. It was palpable. People were saying, oh my goodness, like. And they've been in there for probably about an hour and a half. And we knew then that we had. I think we had something really special. And, and we were really intentional from that point on. So we evaluated after each run and after the first pilot, we were like, great, okay, so this works, but we need perinatal teams. We need to include everybody because it was maternity support workers and midwives. So we just kind of every time we ran another cohort, we would stop, look at it and think, what do we need to make this even stronger? So then we went to ensuring that we had a mix of leaders and people early on in their career, people further on in their career. Then we realised we needed to include senior leaders. So we did some dedicated cohorts for senior leaders, and that was very much about people who were in positions of power that could unlock things within the trusts and help with that culture. And you were on that first cohort, weren't you of senior leaders Ann?

Ann Remmers I was and, you know, that was incredible because it was having seen people come, as you described, so beautifully, Noshin people coming out of the room and feeling the energy and feeling that this was something that was this was really amazing happening to then take part in it. I suddenly felt very nervous. I have to say, because there is a very personal element to the programme in that you do have to look inside yourself. Um, there's a lot of exploration around the origin of racism and as a white person to be learning and thinking about things or unlearning things. Um, that was quite powerful. I actually felt really quite emotional that first day. Um, but it was, it was amazing. And to then see what some of the senior leaders took away from it and the action that they've taken, um, since undertaking the programme, that's been incredible.

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini So when you look at the Black Maternity Matters community, we're over 600 people in who've been through it and we don't let people leave because the real kind of magic of Black Maternity Matters is that we acknowledge that this isn't a one and done. So you're learning constantly, and having that support from everybody is really important. And so 600 people in, I guess what we've started to talk about is that special sauce. Katie and Aisha talk about kind of what is it that makes this so very different from traditional training? One of the really important things is that it's led by people with lived experience of racialisation. So all of our education needs are trainers. This isn't something that they pick up and put down. This is their lives. This is their experience. Many of them have also used perinatal services over time in in the local area as well. And we're also really intentional that anyone who is kind of involved in the behind the scenes Black Maternity Matters has done the programme themselves as well, and all of our trainers, as they bring on more associates into the team. Because you can imagine with the amount of people that we're working with, we need to keep increasing our capacity. They all do the programme as well. So it's a real kind of, um, put your money where your mouth is experience. And that allows that shared language, that shared understanding. We're all coming from a place where we're not debating racism. I remember we had a conversation quite early on when we're like, we're done with debating, does racism exists in perinatal services? It does. So now let's move to the how do we eradicate it part?

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini And so Ann, we have spoken about kind of how Black Maternity Matters was born, pardon the pun, and how it's grown up and developed and who's helped along the way. When you look back and you think about kind of where we are now, what does it, what's it making you think of and kind of what, what's still frustrating you? I think about working in this space because we have to be honest, right? It's a really difficult, emotionally labouring area to work in, I think.

Ann Remmers What we haven't really foreseen was the amount of engagement we were going to get. I'm really I'm really proud that it's become part of the language, I guess, particularly locally and expanding out from local. So we did start it in Bristol and that's where the pilot was, and we've done several years now and you can really see it start to embed. Um, and then, you know, we went to an event yesterday where we saw some of the midwives, maternity support workers that had been on one of the first programs and they're just doing this amazing work supporting women and really having fantastic results. So I think when you see that it's making a difference, and when our colleagues at Black Mothers Matter say we're getting some really positive feedback from women. Now, when they go to this trust where we know you've been doing the Black Maternity Matters programme for a while, that's that's my kind of proudest moment. I guess that's, that's really like, that's what it's all about. And then I guess what frustrates me, people are often very impatient for quick wins. And I think this is something that you aren't going to get an absolute quick win, but you've got to invest and really give it time and support, and then you start to see how it comes to fruition. You then start to see the sort of golden moments coming.

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini And I liked what you said when you were talking about how we know that women in birth are feeling now about kind of going into our local trusts. It's become part of how we do things in the west of England. And I think that's something that we're all really proud of because we know that this isn't a as we were talking about earlier, you come in, you do the programme, and then that's the end of it. It is actually shifting culture. It's shifting the way teams work. And people say, you know, that they go on Black Maternity Matters and they expect it to be about work. But it's not just about work because you can't separate yourself from this issue. Right? So it's about how they then talk to their children, how they show up for, you know, around the table when you've got Uncle Joe or whoever who everyone just sort of lets have their problematic kind of viewpoint. It's about how they then kind of address that. And so it really is changing, I think, how people navigate the world and how they view it. And I think that is something really special in terms of kind of the reach and the impact that is sometimes hard to demonstrate for those people that want that. Where's your impact? How are you making a change? Yeah.

Ann Remmers Yeah.

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini So, Ann, we've spoken a lot about Black Maternity Matters today, but I want to ask you about Black Maternity Natters. So you are going to be our star of the show. You're going to be meeting lots of people over the next few episodes. So tell us about kind of what our hopes and dreams are for Black Maternity Natters, really, and how we want to use it to help people working in this space.

Ann Remmers I think the stars of the show are going to be our guests that we're going to invite to talk to us. Um, what I'm looking forward to is really highlighting the stories of people that are working in this space and the incredible work they're doing, and it can sometimes be quite lonely work and quite, quite siloed. And we know that some of the people that we've met, other people won't have heard about what they're doing. And when we first been introduced to them, we, we thought, wow, this is amazing. All people need to know about this. So that's what I'm hoping we will get through this podcast. So we're really going to use it as a platform to reach other people and to spread the word. And that's, that's what this is all about, spreading the word, educating people and welcoming people into our Black Maternity Matters community.

Noshin Menzies-Emamiannaeini I think it's time for us to sign off now. I've really enjoyed spending time having a trip down memory lane, Ann, with you. And yeah, I'm really looking forward to listening to the stories and the work and digging down deep into some of those areas that people are working in. So yeah, it's been great to chat with you Ann, we don't work together enough, do we?

Ann Remmers I am so looking forward to the podcast. I really am and welcoming people to join with us and share their stories. So yeah, till the next time. Bye bye.