Black Maternity Natters: Ep 2 - Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi, BCohCo

In this second edition of Black Maternity Natters, host Ann Remmers is joined by Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi, an inclusion and cohesion strategist and a founding member of the Black Maternity Matters collaborative. Katie shares the "three pillars" that fuel her passion for social justice: her academic background in social psychology, two decades of "stomping the concrete" in community development, and her lived experience as a dual-heritage, neurodivergent mother of twins. Together, they discuss the vision behind BCohCo (Building Cohesive Communities) and why racial and cross-cultural literacy should be viewed as essential professional competencies rather than optional "charity work".

The conversation dives deep into the anti-racist education programme Katie co-designed, exploring how it differs from standard mandatory training by demanding deep personal introspection. Katie explains the importance of creating "brave spaces" rather than just safe ones, where participants can navigate the uncomfortable "lightbulb moments" of realising how systemic racism is perpetuated. 

From staying resilient against a shifting political tide to a sneak peek at her future work with AI bias interruption tools, this episode is a powerful exploration of how to transmute guilt into meaningful action. Plus, don't miss Katie’s essential book recommendation for anyone looking to understand the historical roots of racism in medicine.

Programme notes

BCohCo

Divided by Annabel Sowemimo

Black Maternity Matters

Connect with Black Maternity Matters on socials: Instagram and LinkedIn

Got feedback or an idea for a future programme? 

Contact us at healthinnowest.communications@nhs.net or via our socials: Instagram, LinkedIn or Bluesky

Find out more about Health Innovation West of England

Transcript

Ann Remmers Hello and welcome to the second edition of Black Maternity Natters. I'm Ann, and I'm delighted to welcome today Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi, who is director of BCohco and one of our founding members of Black Maternity Matters. Katie co-designed the education programme for Black Maternity Matters, and I'm really looking forward to talking to her today.

Ann Remmers It's wonderful to have you here.

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi Oh, thank you so much, Ann, and thank you for having me on. I feel really privileged to be one of the first participants of the Black Maternity Natters podcast. Awesome.

Ann Remmers And I really want to start, Katie, by just finding out a little bit more about you. I mean, who you are, what you stand for, and something you often pose to us is how are you showing up in this space of anti-racist education and Black maternal health?

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi Uh, hi, my name's Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi and I'm an inclusion and cohesion strategist and director of BCohCo. So BCohCo co is a consultancy that offers learning development in all things diversity, inclusion, cohesion, equity, cross-cultural literacy, and racial literacy. BCohCo is an acronym for Building Cohesive Communities. And that's what we do. 

We work with organisations to build cohesive cultures for their internal teams and the communities they serve. And when we're thinking about Black Maternity Matters, especially those end users, if you like, they are the women and the birthing people that maternity services serve. 

I have been working in community for the best part of twenty years now. I studied international relations and social psychology. I've done qualifications in teaching and project management, and I consider to be pillars that supported my development of my knowledge and and knowing in this subject matter. 

I started my career as a community development worker, uh, literally stomping the concrete, working with people to build a capacity and asset locally, um, campaigning for change. I always being pulled into the social justice strands of the work. And, you know, that wasn't an accident because that's what I feel passionately about. So you kind of gravitate. It's like a magnet, isn't it? 

So yeah, so diversity, inclusion and equity and anti-racism has kind of been a core theme and thread of my professional life as well. I went on to manage teams of community development workers, health champions across local authorities. So so what kind of became quite clear at that point is the the demand for the social justice strands of the work just got bigger and deeper. Okay. And just became more, um, which was interesting. 

And the third, I'd say the third pillar is my lived experience as well. So you've kind of got the academic piece, you've got the, the work piece. But being a dual heritage woman, father, Jamaican mother, English, Irish, um, I'm neurodivergent woman myself, I have dyslexia, I'm a working class girl and my roots are very much working class. And I'm a mother of twins, right? A mother of two beautiful, um, nine-year-old twins. And so those are the reasons that kind of that fuel, um, I feel a lot of what I do and why I do what I do because of the barriers mainly that I experienced in my life because of some of those identity markers. 

So those are the kind of three pillars, if you like, of kind of fuelled my journey to, to be where I am as the director of BCohCo and a partner on the collaborative that is Black Maternity Matters as well as, you know, the, the other strands of work that I do and am involved in.

Ann Remmers Thanks. That's really painted a picture beautifully, I think, Katie, of your experience, both through your work and personal. And I know that I first met you through BCohCo

when we were planning some anti-racist education within my organisation. How did you get onto that journey of setting up BCohCo, you know, and what was your vision of, of what that would achieve.

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi The funny thing is, I never seen myself as a businesswoman. I always see myself in kind of socially conscious service roles, kind of. Um, supporting communities, supporting people, hence studying social psychology. And I always enjoyed the equality, diversity, inclusion, equity, parts of the work that I did in communities like the social justice strands, as I said, always being pulled in. 

And I remember the organisation I was working for at the time, I was working in the charity sector and they were invited. I mean, this is going back maybe even twenty years. They were invited onto a train-the-trainer, D & I train-the-trainer. My organisation were invited to send some of their staff because there were spaces on this train-the-trainer course. And I think that's where it all began for me. I did this day train the trainer on EDI and it was three days, just totally immersed in the subject, three days with peers and people that felt as passionately as I did, and it just blew open a lot of knowledge and knowhow for me. A lot of work that I do quite naturally anyway in my practice, my work. 

And it was like, oh, this is the theory, okay, this is the data, okay, this is the practical application. And so then I, then I started to apply the learning to my actual practice, um, to deepen my delivery and, and started to deliver EDI to town and parish councils. So working with councillors, um, in, in the, in the area which, which can be quite a challenging audience, uh, to say the least. Um, I certainly chiselled my tools in those days, I can tell you that. 

And so I would always say after that, this idea that I wasn't a businesswoman, but when people would say to me, you know, would you ever set up a business? What would you do? I'd say, EDI, you know, if I can make that work and, and bring in a income and be able to support my family and do that work, that is what I'd like to turn into a business, quite frankly, but because because also something to highlight is when people back then would consider this work, they'd see it as almost charity work or, or God's work. 

You know, even when I started the business and started working with businesses, they'd say, are you a charity? Right? That was really interesting. Yeah. Because there's an assumption that this kind of work is charitable work, right? It doesn't sit in line with have organisations and their, you know, their core values, which is now I see as completely mind boggling and total nonsense. But back then, that was that was the sentiment. That was the questions, you know, you'd be asked. 

Now what I my retort to that would always be to businesses, especially and organisations. You spend X amount, fill in the gaps on training your people, on communication skills, on team building skills, on negotiation skills. Why do you not think that developing individuals or your organisation's cross-cultural literacy or racial literacy has that value? Why don't you think that it should have that value? You know, because people didn't understand or that the kind of the economic or organisational value of of that work they do now. 

I think, you know, we don't get asked these questions anymore that people absolutely understand that there's a value attributed to that knowledge and that knowhow and those expertise as a, you know, as CPD, as continued professional development. But that was an interesting time. Yeah, that that crossover where people really started to understand the value of the work. 

So what I've kind of shaped, um, my kind of career since around is that this is cross-cultural literacy, racial literacy, their core competencies, you know, if we are going to survive, work together, live and thrive in the most diverse society we've ever been. I don't think we've ever been diverse than we are now. And, and, you know, there's a generation coming through who have that language to describe their identity. Then we need to be able to talk each other's cross-cultural languages. You know, not literally as in like, you know, different, like different language, but cultural language is going to live together.

Ann Remmers And I think what has really, um, kind of a legacy, if you like, of the work that you're doing and building on that. I mean, I think, um, I, I can, I can see lots of moments of joy in the work that you do because I know that feeling that the people that you are talking to are understanding what you're saying and they get it. Um, I, I've witnessed that and that must bring, bring you great, great joy and, and know that you've, you've hit the right spot. But equally, I know that along with those highs come the lows. And I just wondered what have been the main challenges for you and the obstacles for you in this work?

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi So if I think about the kind of the most recent timeline. Let's just kind of put it into perspective from 2020 because, I mean, that's just, you know, you know, you had you had Covid hit, you had George Floyd, Black Lives Matters, and there was a huge appetite for the work and people wanted to do it. They needed to do it, they needed to understand it. And then, um, I think 2023 onwards, you've seen a bit of a change in the appetite. And you also, we, you know, as, as practitioners, you witnessed almost like an opposition start to come around. And we've seen the kind of rise of and the influence of Reform. Um, most recent year we've had flag gate and roundabout gate and we've had the summer riots of, uh, this year. So we have seen this like a kind of a tsunami, if you like, coming back the other way. Um, Um, a lot of the anti EDI sentiment coming in from America as well is absolutely influenced the conversation.

Ann Remmers That must be tough. And how do you stay resilient?

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi It's taken lots of like trial and error and practice to be honest with you with the whole resilience piece, because not everything works all of the time. And what worked once might not work now. So that's really important to keep kind of checking in and auditing what it is that keeps you up, like keeps you, keeps you going rather. 

And, you know, I'm fortunate enough to have a coach. Um, in previous years I've had supervision, if you like, by, by a specialist in this industry, because that is an essential. Um, and then the network of people that I have around me is really important that you can, you know, that you can, that they, you know, that they get it because otherwise you find yourself working in your personal time, you know, and that that can be really, really exhausting. 

So there's something about the people that you surround yourself with having a similar value system to yourself. And that's not to not be challenged on your worldview. That's not what I'm saying. But to be, to be safe from bias in your personal life is quite important when you're doing work on this on a bigger platform.

Ann Remmers And moving on now to, to how we met. Um, I mean, you've been one of the driving forces of Black Maternity Matters. Um, and that's collaborative from, from the very beginning together with Aisha Thomas and you came in and, and you've kind of really, really run with it designed an education programme. Why is this collaboration important to you and what would you say we've achieved together?

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi Oh, it's been amazing. See, I've always been a supportive, collaborative working from my community development days and, and mainly because you couldn't really get much done unless you had buy in from other organisations, because it's kind of like a pulling of resources, right? So you so different expertise, different specialisms, uh, to be able to drive, drive, whatever kind of initiative or project you were working on forward. So I always understood the value of collaborative work in any way. And, and kind of love having a team to bounce off of and to explore things with. 

And I think we, whether we realised it or not, there was a coming together based on a shared value system. And that was a kind of an anti-racist, non-negotiable, anti-racist approach. And from there, we managed to create a really brave space with a lot of compassion and a lot of empathy and understanding for one another. But I think quite clear roles and what people are good at and what they were able to go away and do and execute in, in the name of, you know, building Black Maternity Matters to what we see today. 

And it hasn't, you know, it you, it's not been a smooth road. It's been a rocky road, you know, and I think there's a saying, isn't there maybe. May your road be rough. And it, and it has, it has been. And I think we've become stronger for it more robust, more resilient, more absolute in in this model that we've developed that, you know, arguably is, is one of the first of its kind.

Ann Remmers Yes. And I'm always struck by participants in the Black Maternity Matters programme and talking about being taken on a journey through the educational sessions, and people say they've had their eyes opened and once you see, you can't unsee. In terms of properly understanding what systemic racism is, how do you think this is different from usual mandatory equity and diversity and inclusion training?

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi So when myself and Aisha started to develop the content for the programme, like based on our own values and principles from our own organisation, it was important that we bring in lived experience as well as the kind of academic grounding, um, and credibility into the, into the content. But something else that we also do is we, we kind of demand that our participants get introspective, and that is one of the most powerful pieces of the work. Like, who are you as you quoted me earlier, how are you showing up? Yeah. 

So we make it very personal. You know, it's not abstract. This is this is, you know, who are you? And let's start there and then start with your sphere of influence. Let's start with the structures that you're working in. What do you see? What do you identify as the problem? What needs to start? Where do we need to start to build the change? And I think given our participants kind of that level of responsibility from the get go, you know, it just changes the way in which they participate. And it changes the way in which people engage. And, and we get, we get, you know, some fear and hesitation initially. 

But the, the reality is, you know, our facilitation style is a sensitive and compassionate one as well as a challenging one. Um, and so, you know, we hold people's journey as well, you know, we're there all the way with them. Well, they're doing some serious reckoning on a personal and professional level. So we, we have people say, I've never experienced anything like this in my life. We tend to get some really kind of profound personal observations about people's experience on the course that aren't your bog standard tick box. That was a nice day out. 

Ann Remmers Well said, well said. And I know how important it is to you and I and all the, the wonderful anti-racist educators that are now working with you as the, as the Black Maternity Matters programme expands, how important it is for a psychologically safe space for people. I think you call it a brave space. Can you expand a little bit on that for us?

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi Yeah. So there is a whole bit of theory around brave spaces and, and there's, there's actually a paper that I read a few years ago on it. Psychological safety. Absolutely. We want psychological safety. It is essential that we're always working towards that. But when you're having conversations around social injustice, it is hard to guarantee people's psychological safety, especially when you have, uh, the oppressed and potentially the oppressors in the same space. 

And I always use the gender example here. If a group of women come together and a group of men and they want to discuss the patriarchy, that might not be so comfortable for the men in the room, right? So if we really get into to the detail of how the patriarchy works and how it manifests itself. I can't guarantee those men's safety psychological safety. I'm going to have to ask that they get brave and courageous and even vulnerable to be able to have that conversation in a real and robust way. And, you know, we do that in the Black Maternity Matters conversation as well when it comes to race. We have to understand that this isn't going to be a comfortable conversation. As a matter of fact, if it's comfortable, we're probably not doing it right. So how do we as a group come up with kind of agreements, ground rules that we can do the difficult in a brave way here?

Ann Remmers Yes. And, and another thing that that I've always been impressed by, Katie, is, um, you describe yourself as a woman of dual heritage. And I know that you talk about your experience of racism and witnessing racism. Um, and when you're leading white participants through anti-racist education. And you witness that penny dropping moment and their sudden realisation of the role of white people in perpetuating racism, that that must be quite a painful and distressing moment, not only for them, but internally for you. What's in your mind at that time and how do you respond? And really, where does your strength come from? Because I've seen old people in that moment very gently.

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi Yeah. I mean, it is an emotional moment when people have that, you know, lightbulb moment. Come on. And it, it is, it's emotional for me in a way that, uh, there's relief. Uh, okay, now we can now, now we can really start the work. You know, once we, uh, we've unlocked acceptance, which is one of the most difficult things to do in this conversation because we always get a lot of whataboutery. You're always met with defensiveness. There's a lot of walls to navigate for people before they get to that acceptance moment, so I always feel a sense of relief when we finally got there. Um, you know, always offering compassion and empathy in those moments. 

But what we also say is, yeah, let's not dwell on it too much either, because what people tend to do is then venture into guilt and want to swim in the sea of guilt and misery for, for a while. And we, we give it, um, you know, ten minutes, do a temperature check on your emotional, on, on your emotional kind of state in this moment. But let's think about now how we transmute that guilt. Like how do we move up the dial now on racism? Now, you know, you know, once you see it, you can't unsee it. And now you know, what are we going to do with that and what are we going to do about it? So yeah, it is it is an interesting moment on the course. And it happens at different points for different people. But I'd say we've got it to six months. We can take people on the journey and unlock, uh, the anti-racism in people within, within about six months.

Ann Remmers That's incredible. It really is. And I just wonder now what is next for you, um, as an individual and for BCohCo, what, what are your priorities for the year ahead? Yeah.

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi Well, actually really, really exciting stuff. So for me, there's been, um, some, some work that I'm doing, um, through the cross-cultural literacy lens as well, um, in terms of kind of development of new programmes at BCohCo. And also I'm in talks at the moment, I told you, and I was on a call with um, somebody in Australia this morning and he introduced me to a word local, global, but local local. And so we're thinking about like a planetary global citizenship kind of programme that talks to how exactly where bias, cross-cultural literacy and the planet meet. So that's really exciting doing a lot of work in the green conversation at the moment. 

And we're also venturing into AI and everything that is with that conversation at the moment and working on what we're calling our bias interruption tool. So yes, so very exciting times, very, very exciting times. Um, but yeah, all under construction and all kind of, you know, our one, three and five year strategic plans here at BCohCo.

Ann Remmers Well, we are certainly going to be watching this space Katie, and seeing what happens next. Before we finish and sadly, we've come to the, to the end because it's been an absolute joy chatting to you and hearing from you today. Um, there's one thing that we ask all of our guests if you could recommend a resource, it might be a book, a film, a podcast, but anything really that's inspired you that you found useful that you would like to recommend to our listeners?

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi Oh, I think because of the Black Maternity Matters nature of this particular podcast, it would have to be one of the books from our curriculum that just is the gift that keeps giving and that is Divided by Annabelle Sowemimo. I think that book and what Annabelle does in it, is just nothing short of a genius in terms of taking us through the historical, economic, social integration and embedding of racism in medicine and science. Uh, yeah. So I couldn't recommend that read enough.

Ann Remmers Thank you Katie and thank you so much for being with us for this Black Maternity Natters podcast today. I know you've got to rush off to something else now, but we're really grateful that you could spend the time with, with us today. It's really been amazing. Thank you.

Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi Thank you for having me.