Black Maternity Natters: Ep 3 - Aisha Thomas, Representation Matters

In this episode of Black Maternity Natters, Ann Remmers sits down with Aisha Thomas, the Founding Director of Representation Matters and one the founding members of our Black Maternity Matters collaborative, to explore her powerful journey from law to becoming a pioneering voice in anti-racist education. 

Aisha shares the visceral experiences that shaped her mission, from a transformational encounter with young Black boys in the prison system to her impactful 2018 BBC documentary on the lack of Black teachers in Bristol. Driven by what she describes as a calling, Aisha discusses how her work is rooted in the belief that "you can't be what you can't see" and how representation serves as either a bridge or a barrier to fulfilling one's potential.

The conversation dives deep into the "special sauce" behind the Black Maternity Matters programme, and how this work focuses on tackling racial inequality in maternity care without apology. Aisha explains how the programme moves beyond traditional knowledge transfer to foster a space for courage, honesty, and critical reflection on systemic inequity. By moving from the macro level of structural racism to the micro level of daily clinical practice, she highlights how every healthcare professional has the power to change a patient’s trajectory through simple yet profound shifts in engagement.

Beyond professional accolades as an author and doctoral researcher, Aisha talks candidly about her personal anchors: her faith, her ancestral lineage, and her lived experience as a mother to two Black boys. As she navigates the challenges of the current political climate, she leaves listeners with a vital challenge: to move away from feeling furious to getting curious. 

This episode is an invitation to look inward and ask how we can remain anchored, aligned, and accountable in our collective pursuit of equity and change.

Programme notes

Representation Matters

Black Maternity Matters

Becoming an Anti-Racist Educator by Aisha Thomas

Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work by Aiko Bethea

BBC Inside Out West

TEDxBristol: Why Representation Really Matters - Aisha Thomas  

Connect with Black Maternity Matters on socials: Instagram and LinkedIn

Got feedback or an idea for a future programme? 

Contact us at healthinnowest.communications@nhs.net or via our socials: Instagram, LinkedIn or Bluesky

Find out more about Health Innovation West of England

Transcript

Ann Remmers Hello, my name is Ann Remmers. I am the clinical lead for Black Maternity Matters at Health Innovation West of England. I'm so pleased to have in our studio today, Aisha Thomas, Founding Director of Representation Matters. Aisha, welcome to our podcast studio. 

Aisha Thomas Hello.

Ann Remmers We would love to hear a bit about Aisha Thomas and all the incredible work that you've been pioneering in the anti-racist space. But let's just go back to the beginning. I know you're a born and bred Bristolian, and you originally studied law at the University of the West of England. How did you make the transition across to education and specialising in anti-racist education? 

Aisha Thomas Well, Ann, thanks for having me. And then you start with the big questions. 

Do you know what? I've probably told this story about a thousand times and I still get goosebumps every time. Because the reality is it was a call in rather than an intentional choice, if I'm being really honest with you. 

My mum was a primary school teacher. She wanted me to go into education. I was like, absolutely not. I was of the era of ally McBeal, so I'm showing my age now, and I fully just wanted to be the rich auntie. I wanted to live in the States. I was going to be the successful lawyer. I was very clear about what my life was going to look like. 

So when I read law at university, it was a very simple for me. I knew what I was going to do, but one of the things that we were asked to do when we were kind of, um, doing a different job roles and different experiences, I guess was to do some pro bono work. 

So at the time, I was a legal assistant and I chose to do my pro bono work with the Prince's Trust, as it was named at the time. And I was working with what's called the NOMS Project, which is the National Offender Management Scheme, and I would visit a group of young boys across a number of prisons in the South West region. And it was one of the most transformational experiences I've ever had in my life. I heard statistics about Black boys being imprisoned, but it didn't really mean anything to me at that point. I guess I didn't have any proximity to it, and I'll never forget when I walked into the prison and they were doing what's called a mass move, and they were moving all of the prisoners, which are children, these are not adults, children from one part of the prison to another. And I was like, wow, I'd never seen so many Black boys in my life. 

So I've got this visceral experience that's going on for me at this moment, and I can't articulate it. And there was one particular boy that I was working with, and I still can close my eyes and remember the moment I was sat in the visiting hall, and I'd have to wait for him to come and see me, and we'd meet from session to session. And my job was to kind of motivate him, coach him back into community, kind of be a mentor. And in one of our sessions, he just talked to me and said, if you had been my teacher, maybe I wouldn't be in prison today. And I was like, no. Because in my mind, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm just trying to be the rich auntie. I'm going to be the successful international lawyer. I don't know what I could have done that would have meant you didn't choose this pathway. 

And then he said something quite profound. He said, um, look around us. Look at who's in power. I thought you were like someone's parent or something. I didn't have any clue who you were or someone's sister or something like that. And he said to me, when I think about success for Black people, I see it in sport. I see it in media and I see it in crime. And look where I am. But when I think about people in power, they're always white. And then it really got me thinking about the power of representation where you oversee it or undersea it. What does that mean for you? And as a result of that experience, I just couldn't get him out of my head. And I decided at that point, I didn't want to be a part of a career pathway that put people behind bars, essentially. What if I could be part of a career pathway that meant you never made that choice in the first place. And it was then through various different decisions and choices that I transitioned, much to my nan's disappointment from law to education. So my nan went, my mum went, yes. And there was a very different experience that took place, and it took a number of years to retrain and get different qualifications. But I eventually made my way through the education system in a number of ways and then became, after lots of hard work, assistant principal at a school in Bristol at the time called City Academy.

Ann Remmers That's some journey. Aisha. That's a really powerful experience, and that explains a lot about how you then turned all your energy into what I know of you in terms of that anti-racist education. I know that in 2018, you presented a BBC Inside Out documentary on the lack of Black teachers in Bristol schools. Um, so how did that programme come into being? And did it open doors that you needed to have opened for you at that time?

Aisha Thomas Absolutely. I mean, it feels like a whole lifetime ago now when I think back to 2018, and I guess everything that came before that, because twenty eighteen is what people see. They don't see all of the years of work and all the campaigning, all the groups and all the things you do. 

Before the school I was at was the school that had the biggest racial demographic of children, racialised as Black and the highest population of children who were Muslim at the time. And it became quite apparent that these children's experiences were being subject to the postcode that they lived within, and therefore this racial inequality was was absolutely in your face from an educational lens, from what they were being taught for, how they were being benchmarked, for how they were attaining and progressing. 

And I wanted to do something about that. I didn't know what that was. But what kept ringing in my head was, for some children, they genuinely felt that you can't be what you can't see. And, and that's the case for everybody. But certainly for some of these children, they had never seen a Black teacher before. They'd never seen someone in a position of power in education beyond pastoral behaviour management, be someone who could help guide them in terms of their career pathway. 

So I got curious, and myself and a number of people sat on a number of different groups really looking at the numbers, and we found that there were only twenty six Black teachers across the entire city back in 2018. And that's out of 19 secondary schools, over half had none. And, you know, people go. But it has to be proportionate to the population. And but even then, it was still not proportionate to the population of people racialised as Black in the city. And then you just sit there and you go, people need to know about this. Children need to know about this. Parents need to know about this. We need to make a difference. 

And that's really where the campaign launched in the partnership with the BBC, because it was really about actually, how can we really raise awareness about structural inequality? That's in plain sight, but nobody is cognisant of and that this was having a lifelong impact not just on children, but even on adults who wanted to choose education as a career pathway. They couldn't see themselves as teachers, heads of faculty, senior leadership, principals, CEOs. They just couldn't see it. And there was something about raising awareness to that reality. 

And doing that was transformational, because not only did it open the doors in terms of the documentary and what it did is it gave me a platform to now have voices and help to people who would not be heard, people who didn't have the opportunity to say how they felt. And quite quickly, what came after that was my TED talk. So I did my TED talk in 2019, and that was really about why representation matters in education, and it really gave me an opportunity to give the world a bit more of an insight into me and what I'd been through, but also to provide that kind of ability to resonate for so many people who looked like me to go, oh, wow, that's my story too. And my story and my story and my sisters and my mum's and my cousins and my friends. And all of a sudden you realise how representation was really a barrier for so many to just fulfill the life that they want to fulfill.

Ann Remmers That really resonates with me, that Aisha, because in the NHS, we have a similar lack of representation of Black leaders. Um, so you touched on representation matters there. So where, when and why did you set up Representation Matters? How did that come about? 

Aisha Thomas That's such a big question because I'm not even sure I really know. But what I will say is, so I am very spiritual. I'm very much a believer in God, and I know that's not for everybody, but it absolutely is for me. And all I can say to you is this in the most simplest terms, it's my calling. Representation matters. Being a voice for people, being a disruptor and being open to allowing myself to be the vehicle for change was not a choice. It was a demand. And I almost felt like God said, I'm going to make you uncomfortable until you move. And it absolutely felt like that. 

And I guess staying in one school with one set of children in one classroom meant I was having small ripples. And it was great and it was beautiful. But there was an opportunity that opened post, I guess, us doing the documentary and having a TED talk that said, but you could do this in many places, in multiple sectors and across the world. And that really was how it began. And it kind of got to a bit of a crossroads where it was, do you really want to stay on this journey and become a principal of a school, or do you want to go out there and do something for you that will spread and scale and make a massive difference to many, many people? And that's what I chose. 

So Representation Matters was launched in 2020. And it's bittersweet because there is the serendipitousness of it was the right time, but I don't ever feel comfortable about the fact that George Floyd's murder was also a catalyst for a lot of my work, because Black Lives Matters had an insurgence, and there was just this reinvigoration. And although that had been going on for some time, the campaign, particularly from the United States, I guess, alongside Covid. It just created an opportunity to do this work at a mass scale.

Ann Remmers And then, not content with setting up Representation Matters, you decided to write and publish a book like.

Aisha Thomas I didn't have anything else to do. But interestingly, the book actually started years before that. I started writing that book, probably 2018. So after doing the documentary, I realised that there really wasn't a resource that was available for educators to go make this easy and usable for me, give me almost like a manual and a guide, but with rooted lived experience and some practical application. There's lots of academic literature, but I think if I was a secondary school teacher or even primary, I'd need to pick up an easy-to-read resource. It really wasn't there. 

And so I wrote the book with me in mind, going, if I wanted a book, what would I want it to include? And so that's where that kind of journey started. And I would say Covid probably just slowed down the process of what had started in twenty eighteen. But yes, in 2022, the book was launched, becoming an anti-racist educator.

Ann Remmers And it received such a lot - and it still receives a lot of positive attention. And one review I came across said, “this book should be required reading for all school staff and should feature on every staff library continuing professional development bookshelf”. How does that, how does that make you feel?

Aisha Thomas I guess when I hear you, it does feel like I'm fulfilling my destiny in the sense that I feel like I'm here to shift and change and to spread the gift that God has given me, which is very much about my voice and taking people on a journey. And when I can see that someone can pick up my words and read it and go, that's what it's doing. And it should be doing this for everybody across education. You can't ask for a better validation than that. Um, it's for the people, right? 

And so when the people say this is good and it's helped me, and it was just a couple of weeks ago, I was in London, I went to go watch a show and someone tapped me on the shoulder and I was like, oh, hello, you're Aisia Thomas. And I'm thinking, oh goodness, what have I done now? And then the lady said, oh, you wrote the book Becoming an Anti-Racist educator. It's been transformational for me and my practice. And you're like, oh, okay. Wow. And I said, oh, can I take a photograph with you? And I'm like, yeah, sure. You will never know who's been impacted by your body of work, but you get those moments where you'll be reminded. And it was a beautiful thing to experience.

Ann Remmers I'm glad you experienced that, and I'm sure that's going to happen many times more for you as well, Aisha. As we know, anti-racist education and practice are not easy and there are no quick fixes. What, what challenges have you faced and how have you overcome those? 

Aisha Thomas Oh goodness. What are the challenges? I think I'll talk about it through the lens of now, because I think the challenges have been different. And I think in the past, what what became quite hard was the recognition that EDI anti-racism was even a thing. I remember knocking on doors, begging people to let me come and talk. 

And then you had this moment in 2020 where I'm now overwhelmed with the amount of requests and overwhelmed with the amount of people who want me to come and speak at their event or come and deliver a programme. 

But the reason why I say let's not focus on that, but focus on now. I think the biggest barrier now is the current political climate. And the reason why that's a barrier is because people are now showing you their truth. And I think a lot of what happened in the period of time from 2020 to maybe 2023 was Black Lives Matter was trending. It was like, cool, let's, let's be part of something. I want to be a part of the movement. 

But as we began to see political division, we began to see DEI and EDI, whichever acronym you use, roll back. There has been a mandate which really came to a moment of harm for me in 2024 with what we know in the UK to be the summer unrest following the death of the girls in Southport, people really began to say how they think and how they feel about people who are racialised as Black. 

And so it was no longer just about, do you want to do anti-racism? There was a real stench of anti-Blackness that was compelling and painful and harmful and hard. And I think the biggest barrier for me now is discerning what people really believe. People's real truth and having to grapple with the fact that I am now back in a place where it feels like I'm having to justify the reality of my harm again before we can even do the work. 

And that's hard because I'm feeling it and I'm experiencing it. I'm going through it. And you want me to convince you and evidence for you that this is even true. Before we can begin to look at the solution, the next steps, the work. And that is an overwhelming barrier that is really hard to go through when there's a mandate that says, you don't need to do this for Aisha anymore. You don't need to do this for people that look like her. You can choose to disconnect and not be a part of it. And that's a hard thing to swallow.

Ann Remmers That must take such an emotional kind of drain on you and could potentially be a burden for you. But I, I don't see that. But how do you how do you deal with that? And there must be moments when you do feel, I don't want to put myself up here.

Aisha Thomas And I've had many of them. For me, if I'm being really honest, it's two things. It's one, my unwavering faith in that this is something I need to do. I'm supposed to do. It's not a job. This is a calling. And when something's a calling, it almost feels like if I do anything else, I'm not in alignment for all of the barriers, for all the hurt and for all the harm. I feel that I have to do this. 

So that's one thing that keeps me going. But the second thing is my children are a manifestation of the things that people are afraid of. I am a mother of two Black boys. In fact, one of them is a man. Now he's 18. And when I look at the way in which for no other reason than the colour of their skin, the gender that they are, the physicality that they, they embody. There are people who would immediately make a choice or a decision about their pathway, their safety, their validity as a human being. It's not a choice. Then if I do this work, however exhausted, however tired, however emotionally draining, I will do this until my last breath because my boys need me to. Because nobody's going to come to save them. There's no one waiting with a super pill or a cape that's going to wrap them up and go, don't worry about this anymore, because I don't have a choice and I don't. And so I have to stay in this for them because if I don't, who will?

Ann Remmers That's powerful, Aisha. I asked you how you cope with the challenges, but where do you get your inspiration? I know you've talked about your faith, which is clearly very, very fundamental, but is there a is there anybody or are there any people that you, particularly when you feel you need that, that kind of boost or that support or that affirmation that you look to?

Aisha Thomas I think there would be too many individuals to name, if I'm being really honest. So I'm going to be intentional about not naming an individual because I think anybody in my circle knows I've given them their flowers in the sense that they know who they are. Um, and they know that they are part of my network. 

So I think one of, one of the key things I always talk about, who's the people that you have around you? And I talk about this super team. And I think it's important that you have your cheerleaders, so they don't do what you do, but they are the people who are unapologetically cheerlead what you do and I have those in my life. 

I think it's always important that you have a mentor, someone who's further ahead than you are and what you do, and I know who those people are. I can pick up the phone, I can, I can make a call, and I know they're there. 

It's also about having your sponsors, people who will say your name in rooms that you are not in. 

I'm going to contradict myself. There is one person who I will name, and it's because this person has passed away and this person's called Dave Baker. He is the first person who believed in representation matters so much. So I remember sending him an invoice and then he sent it back and he went had a zero. And I was like, huh? He was like, you are incredible. Add a zero, send it back to me and have a good Christmas with your boys. And it was just a recognition of the value, the people who do things and you don't even know they're doing it. And that was just I will forever be a part of my heart no matter what, even with his passing. 

And then it's therapy. having a therapist or having someone who gives you that kind of therapeutic supervision that helps you to regulate yourself. That team of people are so important. 

My other anchoring is a moment, and it was a moment I didn't ask for, so I was really unsure about the realities of British Empire. I didn't really understand it. And, and, you know, parts of my story as to why I'll bring this in, but I'm also quite mindful of how deep I go into it. But I didn't understand it, I really didn't, I just thought it was the monarchy. They do what they do, but they didn't get it. I've thought about it, but I didn't really get it, I guess more than a textbook experience. 

And then my friend said to me, um, I'm going to bring you to Ghana and I'm going to show you Empire. And I was like, fine, no problem. So I went to Ghana. I was ready and we drove three hours to a place called Elmina Castle. And he said to me, do you have your tissues? I was like, well, do I need tissues for. I was sad, but I don't need tissues. I'll be fine. Not a problem. I stepped onto the bridge. Till this day, I cannot tell you what happened, but I had a visceral reaction. I burst into uncontrollable crying. I'm talking about, you know, the type where you're hyperventilating. You've got, like, snot coming from your nose. Sorry for the visual, everybody. But it was that moment. It was that. And I walked in and it's like I could feel my ancestors. I could feel all of the legacy and lineage that I didn't understand. 

And in this particular fort, it was, first of all, owned by the Portuguese, then the Dutch and the British, but they had maintained it so well. So you could see the original rusty iron bars that imprisoned enslaved people. You still had the room where they would hold them if they were rebellious. You still had the slave Masters Quarter, and there was a moment where you could go visit his room. 

And in this room there was like this biblical reference, which really then conflicted with me around Christianity and religion, almost as a as a statement as to why he could do what he did in the eyes of his faith. And then there was a trap door on the floor in the bedroom. TA da! What's that for? The historian said, um, it's where the enslaved women would come up through the trap to be raped. And I'm sorry for the trigger warning for anyone that's caused hurt or harm to in listening to my story. But they would come up through the trap door. He'd do what he would do, and he'd send them away. And any women that were rebellious, they were anchored to this big, massive metal boulder that's still there today. And they would be in the beat of the sunlight. 

And you, you see these things and there's a room called, um, the Room of No Return or the door of no return. So you go through this door and it was the last view they would have had before being taken onto the ships before they were taken to the Caribbean. 

And then that's what helped me to make my decision to do my doctorate, and then me to then decide to retrace my lineage. I was never supposed to return, because if you think about all the points of death that could have occurred, the fact that how many of my ancestors had to survive for me to go full circle and come back to Ghana and then touch the wall and go, I've returned. 

That's my anchoring. That's my moment. And so this is not to be disrespectful, but actually it's disrespectful if I'm not truthful of the realities of empire. If we're going to talk about British Empire, we cannot ignore that part. And that's the part I didn't know. That's the part I didn't understand. And when you stand in it and you go, oh, this is what Britain's built on. Oh, and that's my anchor. The anchor is my ancestors. 

My anchor is a truth and a lineage that started, you know, generations before me.

Ann Remmers I know that was such a deeply emotional experience for you. And, and thank you so much for sharing that with us because I think it, it very beautifully illustrates, um, the harsh reality. And you weren't, you weren't supposed to go back. I think that is what just is, is really powerful image in my head.

I'm going to take us on a little detour now because I, I think what we'll talk a little bit about is really how, how I first met you and how we, we kind of decided we're going to collaborate. Um, and we're going to start something which became Black Maternity Matters. And you were there right at the very beginning along with Katie. um, who we've previously done a podcast with Katie Donovan-Adekanmbi and you've both been very much the face of the work because you've designed and delivered our education programme. And everybody who experiences the Black Maternity Matters programme talks how deeply affected they have been. Why is Black Maternity Matters important to you and what would you say we've achieved together?

Aisha Thomas Black Maternity Matters is special to me for two reasons. One, because you weren't afraid. And what I mean by that is you didn't do everything you possibly could to run away from labelling the reality of what we needed to face. It wasn't anything but Black Maternity Matters. It is what it says on the tin. And at a time where there was lots of challenge around things like, yeah, but all lives matter and lots of things happened. It was almost going, yes, I hear you and multiple truths can exist, but we are going to be unapologetic about the people we're trying to serve here. And as a result of that, we are not hiding from what is a very difficult and uncomfortable conversation. 

So that was the first thing that drew me, because you were being honest and you weren't afraid, and maybe you were afraid, and we kind of felt the fear and did it anyway. But there was something about an unapologetic truth. So that was beautiful to me, number one. 

And I think the second thing for me was I thankfully got through the delivery of both of my boys unharmed. But what I began to realise is that that was quite a unique experience, and I didn't realise that I had luckily got through that entire process, not having had any of these barriers or hurt or harm that other people had spoken to. And so whilst I don't have a horrific story per se, which I need to share, what I will say is I realise that many others do. And in the work that I could be a part of, I might again be part of the intervention that stops other Black women and Black birthing people from having those experiences. How could I say no to that? It was a calling.

Ann Remmers And we were absolutely delighted to have you on board and continue to be very much a part of Black Maternity Matters and people that participate in the programme. They often describe it as being something completely different from any other training they've completed before, and that it should be mandatory for all health and care workers. And we often refer to the special sauce that you and Katie… But for people who know nothing about Black Maternity Matters, could you could you just give us a flavour of that sauce and what goes into it and what makes it special?

Aisha Thomas I find that so hilarious. Secret sauce. It's so funny. I guess for me, in the simplest terms, it was never designed as training. I know we call it training, but it isn't. It's not training in the traditional sense. It was designed with a human experience in mind. And I think that's the first thing that is substantially different from a lot of the modular textbooks, that type of training. 

I am not trying to do knowledge transfer. This is about bringing you into the experience as a human, however you show up. I think the second thing is a lot of equity workers, you know, in healthcare is at the level of kind of information transfer policies, terminology, statistics. Let's make sure we cover the protected characteristics. But rarely do we see change in practice. That's particularly high pressure in systems like maternity care, you don't really see that. So the bespokeness of it's been really important in the way in which we do the design. 

But I think when we think about the source for special sauce, it's partly about methodology. So it's partly the combination of good storytelling research data, reflective practice, um, bringing in coaching approaches, facilitating dialogue and making sure that there's practical application. We, we move from the macro to the micro. So we make sure that we understand real world experiences and how on a micro level, that's making its way onto the ward, it's that recognition of what does systemic inequity and structural racism mean to me in my job, my experience in what I do. And that's right down to things like talking to people about eye contact, the language we use, the choices we make, the decision making that every single person in that room has. 

One of the things I always say in the sessions is I'll always talk to people about the idea that there is so much power in the room. You don't have to be the senior leader in order to make a difference to the people that we're trying to make change for. You are in a room where you can change the trajectory of someone's, not just experience their life chances by just deciding to do something different. 

So for me, the deeper ingredient is courage, honesty, creating a space where someone can stop for the moment, stop thinking about performative expertise, but instead they can think critically without immediately having to move into defensiveness or shame. That's rare. That's hard to cultivate. 

And so the combination of the way in which Katie and I bring in our individual expertise to do that is what's cultivated this because we're not interested in perfect experience, perfect language, perfect participants. You know, there is no, you know, award at the end for doing this, but there is an opportunity to go deeper, not just professionally, but personally. 

And so what most people say to me is I came for work, but I left for me. And that's what the secret sauce is. It's you. They make it secret. They make it special. Not Katie and I, we're the vehicle for it. But it's what comes out in the room. And you would know, you've experienced it.

Ann Remmers Absolutely. I think that describes it beautifully. And for anybody, um, that wanted to know a little bit more about Black Maternity Matters, I think, I think you've captured it so well there. Uh, and it's something that we're very proud of and, um, continue to, to work on, expand and learn from. So thank you very much for that, Aisha. So you're doing your doctoral research, exploring race, trauma and education. Tell me a bit more about this. How's it going and how do you manage to fit everything in?

Aisha Thomas It's that sort of thing where you go, aren't you? Well, Aisha, are you well? Like why? Why? Honestly, it's because my brain needs to be constantly thinking and learning and adapting. And I think there's something about research that allows you to go beyond yourself and what you know to be true and really interested in, um, metacognition. 

And, um, anyone who follows me on LinkedIn, you'll see that I've spoken about it quite a bit recently. I'm fascinated with the way people think and why they think the way that they do. And in a conversation so divisive as race, it's really interesting to think about. But why do you have that perspective on race? Where did that come from? What are your notions, your connections, your reference points. What makes you have your belief system, and what scares you about having to face the reality of what you think, and just having to like, go under the layers a little bit. 

And so what this research has allowed me to do is actually just combine everything from the work I do with yourselves to Representation Matters, day to day work to the stuff I did in education previously, but also just the body of my lived experience coming together and going. There is a real trauma lens in learning about racialised difference that we're not prepared for. And I think we think about jobs. Like if you're a police officer, you would expect to have some sort of trauma training. If you're a social worker, even you know yourself, you have to have a certain stomach for the things that you may see or experience. 

But I don't think from an educational lens, there is any sort of trauma protection for the learning that you do and how that transforms you as a person. And so I'm really interested in helping people to be honest about how traumatised they are by the learning and what's the reality. 

And, you know, this is not to, to make anyone afraid because we're not trying to give people an existential crisis when they do Black Maternity Matters. But we did have a participant once who broke down into tears in one of the sessions, and she said, the reason I'm crying is because I'm now realising that I might have been complicit in the harm or, or death of someone racialised as Black and Brown. And I didn't even know who prepared you for that level of trauma. I've given her a piece of knowledge. She's now translating that knowledge into self. And if you could imagine it, like a Jenga tower, I've started pulling some of her Jenga blocks, and now she feels unstable because what she knows to be true is now being shifted. But how do we take care of people where they're grappling with the reality of their contribution. 

And I think at BMM, we do that well in terms of our trauma informed practice, the wraparound care we have, the psychologists that we have on board and, you know, clinically trained people to help people who go through those sorts of moments of crisis in their learning. But just as a basic standard, most training that invites you to learn a history doesn't psychologically prepare you for what you're about to experience and how you might internalise that learning. And I guess that's what my doctorate is trying to help me explore.

Ann Remmers I'm certainly going to follow that closely, Aisha. I think it's, it's a fascinating area, but also is so necessary in order for us to, if we're taking, as you say, people through this learning and education, um, we have to be mindful of, of trauma wherever it affects people. And is there anything else that, um, you we haven't covered that, that you thought you'd like to talk about or any question you'd like our listeners to go away thinking about.

Aisha Thomas I think the biggest question for the listeners for me now is I really want them to stop and be curious for a moment, because we always talk about in training, you can't be curious and furious at the same time. And for various reasons, a lot of us are furious right now, whether it's because you feel like the world is burning and you can see the inequality, whether it's because you feel like it's not fair. Whatever your positionality is, there is a lot of furiousness that is existing in people's consciousness, their energy and their behaviours, but that uses a different part of your brain. That's your amygdala at the back of your brain. That's your fight, flight, freeze or fawn. 

I wonder what it would look like to spend a little bit of time just hanging out in the prefrontal cortex and just sitting in curiosity and allowing yourself to be really curious and honest about where am I now in 2026? 2020 did something for all of us. We've seen the shift in the last few years, but as somebody who still has a position and in power, who still has proximity to peers and to patients, how curious are you in terms of your own thinking? How are you showing up in this conversation? Are you exhausted? Are you bored? Are you over it or are you still in it? How are you engaging with content and resource and information? How are you engaging with people in terms of conversation and change? Is this something that has been reduced to a professional endeavour, or is this a personal for you? This is about who you choose to be every single day. And so my, my question is, how curious are you now about who you are.

Ann Remmers I love that. Thank you. Thank you Aisha. Something for us all to think about, I think. And finally, this program is all about nourishing, resourcing our listeners. And we ask our guests if they could recommend a resource, a book or TV programme, a podcast. I'm sure there's lots in your head, but is there anything that you think our listeners might find particularly useful or inspiring?

Aisha Thomas there is, and it's just a book that I've started listening to by Aiko Bethea and it's called Anchored, Aligned, Accountable: A Framework for Transcending Bullsh*t and Transforming Our Lives and Work. And it's getting you to really start to think about the way in which you are anchored in your views and your values, how aligned you are to the thing that you say you believe in and how accountable you hold yourself to the thing that you know to be true. It is a wonderful African American woman who also works actually with Brené Brown. But there's something really transformational about the simplicity of her framework. It's so simple, but so deep. 

And for me, it's really allowed me to go back and start doing my own curiosity about my behaviour, my practice, and really question, Aisha, how anchored are you? How aligned are you with the work that you're doing and how accountable are you to your practice?

Ann Remmers Thank you. Aisha, that sounds the perfect recommendation to close our discussion, our talk today. It's been absolutely fascinating. I could listen to you all day. So thank you very much, Aisha Thomas, for being with us and sharing your stories.

Aisha Thomas Thank you for having me. Much appreciated.