Episode 7: Heated and De-Cheated

Will and Colton have a "polite" exchange on de-cheating your dog. Will tackles it at an early age, while Colton addresses it as he goes. Let us know what your preferred method is on this part of retriever training.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Episode seven. Lucky number seven. Got dogs barking in the background. Apparently, we are at a kennel and we're talking about dogs.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hey, there you go. I'm your co-host, or I'm your host, uh, Will Dunn with Dunwright Retrievers.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

And I'm your other host, the host, Colton Thompson with Grey Quill Kennel.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

There you go. Um, on today's episode, Mr. Thompson and I just had a conversation that we uh disagree with quite a bit, and uh we wanted to bring that to you. We got I'm not gonna say wanted to bring it to your attention. Um so Mr. T, why don't you uh enlighten our listeners on what we're about to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

Now I will say I can usually see and understand your side of it, but today I just maybe by the end of the conversation I will, but I hope so. I just don't I don't know. All right, we're gonna talk about de cheating. And apparently water, let's talk about water. Okay, we'll talk about water. Water's good, seek water. That's what the dogs should think about all the time. We uh we should go to the water, water's a good place to go.

unknown 1:12

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:13

So I'll go ahead and start. I don't mind kicking it off. The way that I do water is on my marks for my young dogs, everything is square entry, square exit. Yep. And it's it's it's very black and white. Like if you cheat, it's you shouldn't cheat, is my thing. On the way out there back, because we're right on the edge of the water. And I do a lot of that just to get the repetitions of okay, I need to get in the water and get out.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Straight there, straight back.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:42

That's that's how I start my marking. I really don't ever give them an angle entry, angle exit at a young age, nor do I do a long water entry, which would be backing off of the bank and giving them time to think about going around.

unknown 1:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

So I do a lot of that with my young dogs. I'm really kind of apprehensive about running water at a younger age just because I don't have any tools in my tool belt to reinforce anything. And so if I do run water, like I said, it's always very black and white. Now you probably do that too.

SPEAKER_00 2:16

Oh, yeah, absolutely. I I I don't I don't try to see if my dogs are gonna get in or not. That needs to be black and white, but I'll try a couple of re-entries here and there if the pond permit or permits. And uh, you know, you just want to really develop a good water attitude at a young age where they're not very uh it doesn't hold them back. So a big swim or uh whatever it may be.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

Yeah, no, I want all my tools, I want all my tools in my tool belt before we go teaching any kind of technical water.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:46

Or any technical concepts that would be on the water, which would be angle entry, angle exit, down the shore, yeah, over points, yeah, all that kind of stuff. I want I want all my tools in my tool belt, yeah. Which would include handling.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah.

unknown 3:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

And so with that, I get through the tea drill, we'll run some five three-pole, five-pole, and then we start hacking our land blinds. And once our land blinds get looking pretty good, I will typically go over to what I have been calling swim by. Apparently, I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

No, I'm not saying you're doing it wrong.

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Okay, well, I've been calling it swim by. I guess it's uh a glorified water tea.

SPEAKER_00 3:27

But that's essentially what swim by is.

SPEAKER_01 3:30

Okay, well, I don't know. I was making sure I was calling it the right thing, and it won't sound like a ding-dong.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

No, I our our big disagreement that Mr. T disagrees that water or I'm sorry, swim by, in my opinion, does not teach a dog how to get in the water.

SPEAKER_01 3:50

I think there's elements of it that it does, and I I wouldn't say it entirely teaches it, but I think it definitely reinforces that water is a good place to be.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

Yeah, no, you you are right about that.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

And I think once you teach it well, I think when you step over to tech water, it's an easy transition to it.

SPEAKER_00 4:08

I think de cheating is a should be a part of everyone's purpose.

SPEAKER_01 4:12

Sir, I I agree with that, but I don't I wouldn't say I run a de cheating drill. I just use all of the tools that I've gotten up to that point to teach the dog to get in the water. And I so I guess that is my de cheating in a way. But so are you saying are you saying that you do a de do you have a de cheating drill or a day or a week? Like what? Okay. All right. So I I can understand that, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Wouldn't be the way I my where our big disagreement was is where Well, it still is. It's like swim by is not going to teach your dog to get in the water. And and it's just like running the T and pattern bonds and everything else. Once you go run a straight up cold blond, they don't necessarily know how to run a bond. You you just have to get it.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

But it gives them all the tools that they need to be able to run the blind. Yes, and you still have to hack it out, yes, but they still have all the tools. Yeah, but with water water, it's different. No, I don't I don't think I don't think it's really any different. I think it's just a factor you have to get over. All right. Well, all right. So how do you do your de-cheating? What is your de-cheating process?

SPEAKER_00 5:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 5:18

All right, we need to make sure we paint this picture really good for people.

SPEAKER_00 5:21

Think about a rectangular pond.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Okay. Um and it What about a square pond?

SPEAKER_00 5:28

I mean, hell, it don't really matter as long as you have a straight edge on a pond. Okay. And you or I back off the water's edge and I'm pretty much in line with the bank. I may be, you know, for the first day, I may make it a little bit more black and white to where um it's more of a straight line in water the whole entire way. But after they get done being de-cheated, I will test them and I will almost be in line with the bird boy, and I want them making the decision to get in the water by themselves. Okay. That is the big part.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

And so, how do you all right? So, how do you go about doing that?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

And so people will disagree with me on this part, and this is not a universal thing, this is just a drill. So we're working on it in one place, and all our factors remain constant. Is that you want to be off the water's edge because you want to give that dog time to make a decision, and then if that dog decides that it wants to go cheap, I start applying very little pressure. I'm talking a low one, maybe a high one. I'd probably start on a high one.

SPEAKER_01 6:37

Okay, so this is just for so people can keep up, this is the dog has initially took off, and in the first 15 or 20 yards, they've already decided to skirt the edge of the and take land.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

I do not start applying pressure until they get even where they should get in. Okay. So I I'm not giving it right up in the middle before they get to the water. I'm getting I'm giving it once they get to the edge of the water. And I'll go nick, nick, nick, nick, nick, nick, nick until they pick the bumper up, and if they run back, nick, nick, nick, nick, nick, nick, nick, all the way back.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

And this is all the way there on land, all the way back, on land. Right.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Yes, just where it's in line with the water. Okay. And I do not say anything, I don't say no, I don't blow the whistle, I don't do anything. And then repeat the mark. Go up on pressure to if you were at a high one, go to a medium two. Throw it again. Same thing. Nick, nick, nick, nick, nick, all the way down, nick, nick, nick, neck, all the way back if they cheat. And you do that, go up again if they do it again, and they I I've not had a dog that has uh done this yet because you don't ever want to get to the point where you're up at a five or a six or seven, or on a dog trying to eight, uh, is you will cause that dog to stop. So it you kind of max out at a high three, but they're only getting pressure when they're running land. And after you repeat it three, four, five times, you'll be amazed at the light switch that comes on in their head and they decide to get in the water. And if they swim all the way out there and run the land back, they're getting pressure on the land back. Um and if in the off chance that I am having issues where that dog's just not understanding it, I will they they have to be able to sit on a whistle. That's really the only precursor to this. You don't really have to be able to handle because I'm not gonna handle you into the water. But if you go and start to cheat, I will stop you about halfway down or three-quarters of the way down, stop you, count to five, no no year, and it's not a no no, you know, you're not really putting much voice inflection into it, and you nick them on the way back, and the pressure stops, and you know, where it's just land all the way back, and they will understand okay, they have to get in the water on their own accord, and it will teach them to get in the water by themselves. You're forcing them to make their own decision to get in the water. Yeah, it okay. It's really the the first way that I explain it is technically cold burning, which I know a lot of people completely despise, but I've done this enough, I've I know how to do it. I'm not saying go try it by yourself and you know expect great results and they completely mess up your dog, so be gracious. But um it it works. Okay. I I I learned it from the first guy I ever worked for, and um, it's how I've done it ever since. And it's a beautiful thing, especially when they figure it out. And you can go apply it to other ponds and stuff like that. But when you do start going to apply it other places, I'm not gonna nick-nick nick all the way down, especially if it's a long mark. That's why I say this is just a drill. The mark is only because I've got one place that I this it's the only place I do it. Um it's about probably 40 yards before you get to the water and then uh 30, 40 yard swim. So it's less than 100 yards. Um, but it teaches them to get in the water. And our big disagreement was that swim by teaches you to get in the water. And swim swim by does not teach you to get in the water.

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Well, there's a couple there's actually a couple more disagreements now that I hear you talk talk it out. You know, I'm coming from British dogs now, and we have to be tactful with with what we do because we can impede their drive because they're very sensitive dog.

SPEAKER_00 10:41

But hey, look, I I want to point out American dogs are sensitive too.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

They're not as sensitive as British dogs. They're not.

SPEAKER_00 10:47

I mean, I would disagree.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Well, what I would say is I would never nick on the way out with a dog at the level that they're at because they're too young, in my opinion. If they're not handling, that means they're probably a younger dog. So they're not I don't think they're cognitively old enough.

SPEAKER_00 11:05

Well, they look, look, but because I don't want you to get me wrong. They they will take a left and a uh handle a little bit. Okay. But they're not like when you put your arm up, it doesn't necessarily mean hey, you're changing directions and driving. Yeah. They have to be able to sit on a whistle, and yeah, you know, if you're teaching them how to sit on a whistle and force a pile, I'm I would hope to God that you're casting them back to the pile as well.

SPEAKER_01 11:33

I just I wouldn't do it at that stage. What you're teaching, I wouldn't do it at that that level, that stage of the dog's training career at that moment. I would do I am doing it at a later date with different tools. I'm a big tool guy. I want to have tools and a utility belt.

SPEAKER_00 11:53

Yeah, but the way you were describing it wasn't really de cheating, it was more I think it is.

SPEAKER_01 11:58

Uh and maybe it's not technically de-cheating. I still think it is. I just don't know that I would ever do it the way you're doing. I would be too worried about what negative thing could happen with a dog, which the big one to me is giving pressure on the way out. I think for that level of dog and and for mainly British dogs too, is if we start nicking them on the way out, they're they're just gonna get worn down quicker, in my opinion. That's that's just my opinion on it. Now, I'm I'm certain there's other guys out there that do it the way you're doing it. It's fine. I just totally disagree. I would never do it that way. I I wouldn't I wouldn't even try to do it that way.

SPEAKER_00 12:36

Well, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 12:36

Now I would give pressure on the way back. I think that's okay. And that because the dog's already got the bumper.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Yeah, but that that's fine too. I mean, it look this is a it's something that you have to be you know cognizant about and like know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

All right. So what I would do, if I were going to teach, because in essence, deach eating is teaching to choose the water, right? Okay, choosing to get in the water. What I would do is I would go through swim by water tea, whatever you want to do, whatever you want to call it, and we're gonna get pressure to go into the water. Like we're gonna we're gonna get pressure on a nice square swim. I've got a swim by pond, we're gonna have a nice square, little easy pond. We're gonna get pressure getting into the water. As soon as you get in the water, we're gonna let the pressure off. They're gonna swim across, they're gonna go pick it up, and they're gonna come back. And then we're gonna be able to stop in the water, take a cast all the way over to one side, and then eventually we're gonna be able to stop in the water and go all the way to one side, stop before they get that bumper and cast them back into the water, choosing to get in the water to go all the way to the other side and pick it back up. We're gonna go through, you know, swim by a water tee, whatever. I might even go ahead and put in a reverse tee there where I put the bumper in the mouth at my side and send them out and make them do it. I would cover it ag nauseum. I think that's the right word there. I've been trying to up my vocabulary. And to me, that teaches the dog that water's a good place to be. And that's where I'm wanting you to go. That's where I'm putting you to go. And then I would go run your mark. And if they decided to skirt the bank, I would simply just stop where as soon as they ran past where I thought the line was where they should get in the water, I would stop them and give them a cast into the water. And if they took it and picked the bumper up, good job. Then we're gonna come back and we're gonna rerun it. And I'd say seven times out of ten, the dogs that are really good, they're gonna choose to get in the water and go pick the bumper up and come back. Yeah, I just think that's more black and white for the dogs instead of giving them pressure on the way out on a mark. I'm gonna go ahead, I'm gonna make sure we have handling in place and we're handling really well, and they understand that being in the water is a good place to be.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah, but you know, I'll just play the contrary is like when you're throwing a mark on water, if you've never handled on a mark, they're not it, it it it doesn't translate like that.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Well, we're gonna already have handled on marks because I'm not running swim by and water tea until we're pretty much running blinds on land. And if we're running blinds on land, at least hacking them out, we're gonna have stopped and handled on a landmark at some point.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah, but it it it just the with the water, I it in my opinion, it does not correlate quite as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

And because my big and so your big hang up is the handling, my big hang up is them getting pressure on the way out. I would just not do, I would I don't I wouldn't do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:49

And that that's fine if you don't want to get pressure on the way out. You can stop them on the way out, on the way out and call them all the way back in. But when you start handing handling them into the water, you're making the decision for them. You're not teaching them to make the decision for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

I make the decision for them there to teach them, but the next time they're gonna get the opportunity to make the decision on their own. And like I said, seven times out of ten, they're gonna make that decision to get to take the right line.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

I mean, 70%'s almost failing.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

And then, yeah, all right. Well, then we'll run it again and we'll get it ten times out of ten. Or I will change, or if, or if if at that point they're not getting it, I'm gonna change the line. I'm gonna I'm gonna simplify it. I'm gonna give them the opportunity to make the right decision in a simpler place. And if they get it right there, I'm gonna put them up, and then I'm gonna come back the next day and I'll add some more complexity to it. I'll go back to what the complex thing is.

SPEAKER_00 16:38

Okay, yeah, that's fine.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah, that's the way I would do. I just I I I'm gonna make sure that the dog can handle and is working with me so that I can teach that. Because the last thing I want to do is have any water aversion or mitigate any drive going out in comparison.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

I think if you were to watch me, you would understand.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

I probably would understand it. I still wouldn't do it.

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Well, that's fine. Yeah. But I our big disagreement was that swim by teaches you to get in the water.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

Well, it does it does teach you to get in the water because you're getting the very first retrieve, you're getting pressure on land to go into the water, and they're learning, hey, land right here, I got water in front of me, lands right here, I'm getting some pressure when I get in the water, the pressure turns off. So that must be where I'm supposed to go. And then we swim on across and we get the reward on the back end of that and come back.

SPEAKER_00 17:25

You know, it may teach it to some extent, but when it comes to like de cheating, as you mentioned, you don't really de-cheat your dogs. And that I I that was hard for me to understand because I I think de cheating needs to be part of every program.

SPEAKER_01 17:39

Yeah, I I don't have like a set drill where I teach de cheating, I just teach them to stay in the water as we go along. Yeah, but I'm teaching it at a different, I'm teaching it later on. I'm never gonna ask my young dogs, you know, started level dogs, even the beginning part of season. I'm not gonna put any any kind of mark like that where they have to make that decision. I'm gonna wait until the end because I think I think the dogs are more mature, they've got more tools that they that they know how to use to get them to get them through it. I'm I it is more of a teaching moment for me as far as staying in the water than it is a um reinforcement, I guess is what you would use. That would be the difference. I because I don't I would not consider I would not consider what you're doing teaching. I would say that's giving them an op that I'd say that's giving them an option and they got option A or option B and they get in trouble for option A and they don't get in trouble for option B.

SPEAKER_00 18:33

They don't they don't really correlate it as trouble. That's why it's so important. You don't say anything, you don't blow a whistle, you don't say no, you don't do anything. Um that you you know, kind of going back to our last podcast, you just stand there and remain even killed. Um and you know, there it is absolutely teaching them to make the decision for themselves because I don't want to have to, you know, make you do it. I want you to do it. Yeah. You know, and because there's gonna come a point in time in training where I mean, hell, you you may be 80 yards off the bank, and if they don't get in the water and then you have to handle at that distance, there there's a chance they're not gonna get in the water at all, or understand that hey, that's what we need to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:19

So, what would you do if if you're swimming by an island or you're swimming by a point and the line is obviously past, you know, you there's no reason the dogs should be on the land, but obviously dogs want to veer off and take land one or the other. So what are you doing in that in that case on the point if they get on the if they if they take the line fat and get on the point or get on the island, what what are you doing at that point?

SPEAKER_00 19:40

Oh well, they'll be able to handle by that point. Okay. I mean, it it's you know, this is not a dog fresh out of force fetching a dog that is like you know, fresh out of force to pile.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

This is gonna be a so but but what I'm at but what I'm asking though is is if you're on that point, the dog gets on that point, are you not just gonna stop and cast them to the bird? Like, what's your correction there if it's a mark in between a you know let's back up some more. The the mark is on the other side of the pond, and there's a point coming out, you have to swim by the point. The dog chooses to get on the point, which is not where they're supposed to be. What are you doing in that case?

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I'll handle.

SPEAKER_01 20:24

You will handle.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

Okay, so why would that be different than because at that point it's not a 2D mark, it's just a point that comes out.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Yeah, but it's still it's still pretty much the same. They're choosing to get on land versus take all the water there.

SPEAKER_00 20:40

And that's what swim by is for. But a swim by in my opinion, is not to yes, you can force a dog into the water, but I think it's more so you're you're ensuring the dog's not gonna no-go when it a water is put in front, a piece of water is put in front of the dog. Yes, you know, forcing them is uh somewhat, it's a very minimal small piece of the puzzle of a dog deciding for themselves to get in the piece of water because the reason that we do it in uh what would look like a rectangular pool and us be on the the long side, and so that you kind of take away the option to cheat. Now, yes, you a dog every now and then may try to cheat and run around, but it's you know, if you've done force to file correctly, they understand to go straight and they should get in the water because I I really hardly ever, you know, force to water. I don't have to.

SPEAKER_01 21:35

Um so I typically don't. I mean, I have like one or two dogs that I might most of the time when I say back, they're gone. I'll still give a little bit of pressure just so I can kind of check with the go.

SPEAKER_00 21:46

It's more of a no go correction. And like, hey, you see a piece of water and you're scent on it, you're you have to go. You have to go.

SPEAKER_01 21:54

I guess our big I guess our big difference here is is you're teaching that deech eating early, and I would not. Put them in a situation until they're a much older dog and getting ready to be a finished dog. I would I just wouldn't teach it at that time because I don't think they're mature enough. And I would handle. And I would handle I would handle the them getting on the island, or I'm sorry, I would handle them, you know, skirting the bank the same way I would handle them getting on the island. You're right. I would just stop and cast them. I don't think that's a wrong way to do it. I don't know. I think that's a great way to teach it. And then this is where I would lend more towards a British style training is teaching so much and relying on the fact that we've had solid repetitions that it would either correct itself or they would choose to do the right thing. And I mean, at some point, sure, I might give them if if it's like if we've got an older dog that's seen that picture enough and done it right, and they choose to you know skirt that bank and run all the way down the bank, yeah, I'll probably give them some pressure on the way out without saying anything and run.

SPEAKER_00 22:56

That is completely ass backwards. I'm so wrong.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

It's not because you've taught because it's already been taught. The the the standard has been established at that point. They know to get in the water, they've chosen to get in the water already.

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 23:12

Uh maybe. All right. So look, we've got a a year and a half, two-year-old dog that we're I'm teaching this to.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

But if you're doing that, if you're trying to de-cheat at that age, you're way, way, way behind the ankle.

SPEAKER_01 23:22

I'm not de-cheating. I'm getting at that point, I would be giving a correction to an older dog. That's where I would, that's where I would give the pressure that you're talking about doing, like where it's nick, nick, nick on the way out. Because at that point, they know it's already been taught. No. It's already been, it's already been taught and reinforced with a no, we're gonna we when you pass the point of entry, you're gonna stop, get a nick, and you're gonna get told where to go. I want you to go in the water.

SPEAKER_00 23:47

I'm telling you where to go. But that that that's off the topic of them deciding to get into the water for themselves. If they go and get out early, that's a whole different situation. I it is in my mind, it's not busy. Colton, Colton, hear me out. The dog has to decide for themselves to get in the water for themselves. Yeah. Now, if they get in the water by themselves and then get out early, that is it's a whole completely different situation.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

That's not what I no, no, no. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying if I've got an older dog, a five-year-old dog that's seen everything, and we're running that mark where they we're we're we're backed off the shore, and it's a little questionable on where they should get in, but they should still choose the water and they choose to run down the bank and they haven't even touched water yet. That is the point where I would give the pressure like you're talking about, Nick, on the way out.

SPEAKER_00 24:37

But that's not the time and place to do that.

SPEAKER_01 24:40

Well, I definitely don't think the time and place to do it is is early on in their age.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

I'm saying if you were to watch and I think you would change your mind because when your dog's going through the yard and I wouldn't, you know, going.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

I'm just telling you right now, there's there's no there's no part of this conversation that would make me change my mind. Well, yeah, I mean, let's I just think it's a more clear picture when you when you get to the edge of the water and you pass the point of entry and you stop and cast them and you teach them at that, you're teaching them at that point. There's a little bit of pressure there's a little bit of telling them.

SPEAKER_00 25:11

You're telling them.

SPEAKER_01 25:12

Yeah, you're telling them and teaching them. I think you're giving that dog an opportunity. Like it's like you're saying, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's not it. You need to be over here in the water. Let's come back and run that again and see if you make that decision then. And it if you don't, you just make the same correction until they choose to get in the water. So, I mean, we're we're in essence still putting pressure on the dogs, but I just think that's a better way to teach it.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

But the difficult part for the dog is once you handle them into the water, a lot of times they get lost, and you don't want to have to keep handling in the water.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

But I would never put the water, I'm I wouldn't, I would not throw a mark to where it's hard to get to once they get in the water. I would make sure that that mark is easy to find.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Well, this is all besides the point. No, really.

SPEAKER_01 25:49

No, it's still all it's still all flows together.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

No, look, I'm not I I will handle a dog into the water after they're de-cheated because yes, you don't need to call them back every single time. But when we're working on de cheating and doing it in a drill type scenario, you're the dog. You have to make the decision to get in by yourself. I get that. I get that. You do, but you don't you don't teach it by handling them in.

SPEAKER_01 26:18

You initially you teach and show them where they're supposed to be, and then you come back and give them the opportunity to make it on to make the all right. Well then I well, guys, you've got a good one today. This is this is it. I think we've all been waiting for this one. I I just I know there's poppy people in Will's camp. I'm sorry if y'all think that way, and I know there's people in my camp too. I just don't see that being a productive way to teach the dog. I'm not saying they can't learn that way.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

I mean, but have you s and I'm not saying this to like say, hey, look at my dogs, but have you seen what my dogs do? Maybe yeah, I've watched them. They'll get in the damn water and they don't have any adverse anything, and I've done the same thing with all of them, and they'll and most of them are phenomenal in water.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah, and my young dogs don't really get in the water like that because I don't throw anything like that, but my older dogs do the same thing yours are doing. But they do. I've sat there and watched them, unless we throw that stupid mark that we've talked about.

SPEAKER_00 27:14

No, but uh I I I'm telling you, just please come watch it one day and and then form your opinion. Don't don't just knock me off because I've done it your way. I have. And I just realized there's a better way. I've done it that way. I've done it your way too.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Early on, I have. And it just you you you you risk being fair to the dog then if you're giving your product. I don't think it's fair to the dog to do it that way because you haven't really taught them anything. You're letting them guess an option A or option B, and when they get it right, that they're good. Have you ever heard of self-discovery? I guess. I just think that's a bad way to train, but I'm because I'm sitting here trying to think of anything in my program where it would be where I where I would teach anything the way that you're teaching it. And I and I and I'm even thinking like force fetch here. I even still don't even teach force fetch that way. It I because I I guess it goes back to the foundation of my training. I'm showing all the dogs what I want first, and then I'm going to expect them to do it. And so if I were to do it that way, that would be like the one and only thing in training where they would they would be going in blind to the situation. Because my whole the whole premise is I'm gonna show you what you want, what I want first, and then I'm gonna expect you to do it.

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I mean, yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_01 28:32

And and so I guess that's why the way you're doing it would not work in my program and does it work in my head because that's the way I just think about training. I'm gonna show you first, and then I will expect you to do it.

SPEAKER_00 28:42

I promise you that the people that are doing this, they're not hand like to properly teach a dog how to get in the water by themselves with no interference is by, and uh I know a lot of people do not do it the first way that I said, and a lot of people will stop their dog once they get three-quarters of the way there, and then call them all the way back and I've done that before nick them the whole way back on the water's edge, not that, and then resend them, yeah, and but throw another you know, bumper or something.

SPEAKER_01 29:14

Now I have done now. I will do that sometimes where I will give the dog an option to make the right decision, and I'll throw that mark, and then I'll let them get three-quarters of the way down. I'll stop them and I'll bring them all the way back in. No pressure, I'll just stop them and just deny them that retrieve, and then I'll throw it again and give them the option to get in the market. I'll do that.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

That's what deep shooting is is them making the decision for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

I will do, I will do what you what I just said, some, but I will before I do that, I'm still gonna stop and put them in the water because I'm gonna show them where I want them to be. I'm not, and that's where that's where I think our differences are gonna lie.

SPEAKER_00 29:50

That's fine.

SPEAKER_01 29:52

I think that pretty much sums up everything. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

I mean, we're we're gonna agree to disagree regardless. So I mean, we could just keep beating this pet horse.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

But I I don't have but what I'm saying is I don't have any problems with my finished dogs, and and I this is this is the biggest distinguishment I think for both of us is you're teaching it at a younger age. I'm teaching what you're teaching, I'm teaching it at a little bit older age in a different stage of training.

SPEAKER_00 30:13

Do my younger dogs want to but the way you're teaching it is vastly different.

SPEAKER_01 30:18

I mean, also that, but I I I think what you're asking the dog to do is what I consider a more technical concept. And I'm I'm just black and white.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

You either get in or you don't.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

I just but it's just too too complicated of a entry for for my dogs for the way that I want to maybe for your mind, but for the dogs, I promise you that that won't be the case. I just don't, I don't, I I don't I disagree with that too. So here's something else we disagree with. But what I'm what I'm trying to help people understand and and so they can decide what camp they want to be in.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:48

Will is teaching it at a younger age, obviously different. I'm teaching it at an older age because and he thinks it's a more simple black and white concept. I think it can be kind of gray for the dogs, and so that's why I'm waiting for at an older age and a different level of training to teach it. That's fair. I mean that and that's why, and and I and I do think now I can I can understand this. I can understand why Will would teach it that way at that age versus how I would teach it at the age that I'm teaching it at, or the level of training I'm teaching.

SPEAKER_00 31:21

Because I guess uh if they're close to a finished dog, that certainly they can't be as close to a finished dog if they can't get in the water.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

Well, they're getting close as far as when I well, when I say that, that means they're running they're running pretty well on land. They're pretty much done with finished work on I wouldn't say done, but they're they're running finished look pretty pretty good on on land.

SPEAKER_00 31:44

That's great, but and then that's half the battle. That's 50% of it.

SPEAKER_01 31:47

Well, it is, but this goes back to how I do my dogs. We get land running pretty good, and I'm a big believer in this, is getting all your stuff pretty good on land, and then we're gonna step over to water. That doesn't mean we don't do water for eight to twelve months. We're still doing some water, but I'm a lot more slower to progress on water because there's a lot more nuances to it, and I'm more cautious and reserved as I go throughout it. Now, when I think all the dog, when the dog has all the tools and they've gone through finished on land and they've got the swim by and the water tee down pretty good, then I can start really building that water work, and it comes along quickly because they're more mature and they've got more tools in their belt, and you're just getting it out of the way up front. Well, that's fine. That's fine.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yeah. I just don't I mean we both all I'm saying is casting them in the water does not teach them to get in the water, yeah. Yes, it you they may learn that over time, but you're not like sitting there and actually really teaching them to get in the water for themselves.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

But I'm sitting here thinking of the dogs that are at a finish level that I've done this way, and they don't have the problems that you're worried about them having. They choose to get in the water. I mean, sure, I'll still have I mean you you're gonna have even if a dog is done it one way or the other, you're still gonna have a dog every now and then that wants to skirt the bank. I mean, it's just part of it. They're not gonna be perfect every day. But overall, I would say most of the time they're they're choosing to get in the water on that stuff.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

You said earlier they didn't. I was just making sure you knew that.

SPEAKER_00 33:15

I mean, I well, I I'm just saying there's a better way.

SPEAKER_01 33:18

And no, that's not the you can get it done your way and I'll get it done. I'll you can get it done your way and I can get it done my way. I don't know which one's done right, though.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

I ain't gonna say it, but my way.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

Yeah. All right. Well, that covers that one. I think our blood pressures can both appreciate us winding this down. You got anything else to add?

SPEAKER_00 33:43

Um, no, I just want you to come watch me one time. Uh just watch me. Just watch. That's all I want you to do, is just watch.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

I mean, I can already play it out in my head and I've tried it that way. I don't, it just doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Well, that's why that's why you you may be more of a visual learner in the aspect. I don't think so. Then just come watch. Well, you come watch my dogs do it then.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Well, I I mean you've already got your mind made up about it.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

So I like my dogs, I'm gonna pick my dogs over your dogs.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Well, sure, that's fine. That's okay. Nobody likes the British dogs, they always count them out.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

I don't like the old British guy. I'm tired of this damn British, you know, stigma. Oh, they're sensitive, and wham, wham, wham, boo-hoo-hoo.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Well, that if you've trained as many, I think I've had about 40 or 50 under my belt, and I've had a good I haven't had a huge um I haven't had a huge population of American dogs, but I've had I've had enough. They are vastly different, and I can say that with with utmost certainty.

SPEAKER_00 34:44

But I'm telling you, a lot of these, you know, field trial American dogs are very sensitive.

SPEAKER_01 34:50

They can be.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

They are. Yeah, not you if you if you put a post out on a hunt and retriever page and you ask, you know, which I'm I guess if you were to compare the British versus the American, most people would probably say British are more sensitive. But I don't know. Because it's true. But it's not like you that doesn't mean you can just go over and whack an American over the head with a two by four and they're gonna just do fine because that's not the case.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Maybe 30 years ago they were bred a little different back then. Well that's what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

In today's day and age, these dogs are more sensitive.

SPEAKER_01 35:22

Now, that is something neat that I would like to bring up is that the as technology has gotten more refined, meaning you've got different options of intensity on your stimulation, you are actually starting to see that in the offspring of dogs. You're starting to see even your really high-end AFC, FC, all that kind of stuff. I'm sure I missed some titles in there. Is there an NFC? Is that a thing too?

SPEAKER_00 35:50

Yeah, well, if you do that, you're you're worth a lot.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Right. NFC, all that kind of stuff. You're starting to see those dogs not require the type of pressure they used to require 20 or 30 years ago, and it comes down to the technology of the collars getting better.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Yeah, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Which I think is really neat. Because you know, back in the day there used to be one option. Yeah. Hots.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

And hey, I I want to point out to everybody listening, when I'm uh describing what I'm doing, it is not there. You don't see any vocalization in the dog, you're not being mean to the dog. The dog, it it's more of a tickle than anything else. You're not working your way up super high on the collar where that's so you tickle them into the water? If that's how you want to word it, yeah, I'm tickling them.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

So Will's tickling them into the water and I'm casting them in the water. I'll let y'all judge, see what you think's better, but okay. No, I'm just kidding. All right. That was a good conversation. Maybe we gave the people what they wanted on that. I did not know that we varied so drastically different.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Yeah, no, Colin asked me, hey, what should our next topic be? And I said, D cheating. He said, You do that. I said, Well, you don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 36:54

Well, I mean, I guess I do. I just don't.

SPEAKER_00 36:56

And it's not de-cheating. Yeah, the way that you're doing is not de-cheating. You may be getting it through attrition, but de cheating is you know something that you really work on, and it's when they're young dogs, you know. You you do it when they're young dogs. Yeah, and it's not because I promise you it's a it is a beautiful thing to watch when they figure it out because they're not using a lot of pressure, they're not dampening their attitude at all whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Now, would this be something like because you're in you know, you like the field trial stuff, would this be something that is more geared towards and more beneficial for field trial dogs? And I'm thinking of just because of derby dogs.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

No. I mean, it every single gun dog that I get goes through it.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

I mean, I know that, but I'm just saying, like, where did where I wonder where this this de cheating thing came from? Did it come because hey, don't derby a bump. Because the Derby dogs, they don't they can only run up till 24 months at two at two. And so, I mean, typically you don't have too much.

SPEAKER_00 37:57

Well, and it's not because uh they they've got to get to a certain level by a certain age, but it's just what you do when they're you know coming out of the yard and um this the next step in the program is and see that's where I would be worried about it too, because when you're coming out of the yard, the dogs are not typically jazzed up too much because it's still on marks.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Do what it should be on marks. Well, yeah, and then you're giving them pressure on the way out to work.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Also, if you've probably properly done your basics, they shouldn't be coming out of the yard moping.

SPEAKER_01 38:28

Well, I mean, even if you I even if I've done several that have been done right with very little you know downtime and they just don't like it, just because it is it does get boring. It gets boring for me, so I know it gets boring for dogs.

SPEAKER_00 38:40

And that's fair, but this is I mean, it's all in balance, and um, but it's it I I would really encourage you because I think it could make you and your dogs better. Uh definitely don't think it would make anything better. But that's that's just being ignorant.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

All right, guys. I promise we're still friends for now.

SPEAKER_00 39:03

We are, we are, but I I really just I think if you were to watch it and you know to where I can paint the picture actually having you watch a dog do it, you you would think differently about it.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

I just don't see the benefit.

SPEAKER_00 39:18

But yeah, it it what do you mean? It's part of the program.

SPEAKER_01 39:22

It's part of your program, and I think every trainer's program, and we every dog owner's program. But that's what that and that's a good point to make too is is your program is is kind of built around I wouldn't say around D cheating, but the premise of how you train probably goes along the lines of like how you're teaching D cheating, maybe how you're teaching other stuff. And that's what I said earlier is how I always show the dog something first, like what I want them to do, and then and then I expect them to do it. I mean, I'm not I'm not talking like one rep and then I expect them to do it right the next time. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just like I'm I'm I'm definitely going to teach them more and then expect them to do it. I just feel like you're giving them a option A or option B, and you get the guess, and if it's the wrong answer, you're getting tickled. That's the way I see it. But I'm not that obviously there's a nuance to it that I'm not picking up. But all right, guys, that is the over and out. I promise Will and I still love each other. We're still friends. Oh yeah. For now, we'll shake hands.

SPEAKER_00 40:22

I know y'all can't see it, but we're shaking hands, and now he's never wrong.

SPEAKER_01 40:29

All right, guys. Appreciate y'all listening. That is the over and out. Thanks y'all. If you got anything to add to this, I would love to hear the masses on this one.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

I would like to put up a poll and see who agrees with who. Well, that would require people listening to the episode, so maybe that's people are we got some listeners. I mean, we got enough listeners to put a poll up. Okay. Well, okay. Well we'll we will try the poll potentially. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 40:57

All right, guys.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

We appreciate your feelings hurt when I win. Oh, I don't know. I may not, and I I'll same thing. I won't get my feelings hurt if they agree with you.

SPEAKER_01 41:04

Well, we'll see about that. All right, guys. I'll slip y'all some money if y'all um y'all just send me your Venmail. I'll make sure y'all get paid well.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

All right, y'all.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

Appreciate it, guys.