Episode 8: Connor McNamara with Coastline Kennels

Will and Colton sit down with their very first guest Connor McNamara. He is owner and head trainer at Coastline Kennels in Lancaster, Virginia. Connor walks through his program and chimes in as referee for Will and Colton's latest discord that carried over from the field earlier in the day.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Little different intro there, Colton.

SPEAKER_06 0:08

Yeah, let's start that over. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome everybody.

SPEAKER_06 0:14

Welcome. We're uh kicking off episode number eight. Is that correct? Yes, sir. Awesome. Well, we've got a special treat for y'all today. We've got our first guest on here. We got Mr. Connor McNamara with Coastline Kennels.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

We're very excited about this. Sorry, we're not trying to laugh. Colton and I are having to share a microphone, and Connor's talking through speakerphone into the other one, so it may just bear with us here.

SPEAKER_06 0:46

Yeah, it's we we've got podcast equipment that will actually plug into the recorder, but for some reason it's not working. Either Connor can hear us or and we can't hear him or he can hear us and vice versa. Whatever. It's the opposite of what I just said. So hopefully the mic volume is is relatively okay for this one.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Yeah, if y'all could see us right now, we look like a boy band talking in the same microphone.

SPEAKER_06 1:10

I'll tell you what we might need to do is we'll we'll do it like we're doing a duet. You ever seen uh Tim McGraw? What's his wife's name? Taylor Swift. No, no, no, no, no. What was Tim? Oh, it's Tim McGraw's wife. Fake Hill, there we go. It's like we're staring at each other. I think that's what we're gonna have to do. Pretend Connor's in the room with us somewhere. This just feels wrong, but so right. Yeah, no kidding. All right, guys. Well, we're gonna let Connor introduce himself a little bit. I'll have a series of questions, and we'll get a little background on him, and we'll let him take the reins. We're gonna let him talk a good bit tonight and give you guys a break from hearing us. I don't know. They may they may have enjoyed the past seven episodes, but we're gonna change it up a little bit. All right, Connor. Why don't you kick us off here? Yeah, hey. Hey guys. So where are you located? Tell us again.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

All right. So first thing, my name's Connor McNamara. I own Coastline Kennels. Uh, we're located in eastern Virginia and Lancaster County. For those of you that don't know, it's eastern Richmond, really close to the Chesapeake Bay. We've been up here for the last, let's see, since 21, since 2021. We moved here. We're still building, we're still growing, we're settled in now and making the best of it.

SPEAKER_06 2:29

So you said you've been doing uh coastline's been a thing since 2021. Is that as long as you've been training, or did you have a a previous previous experience?

SPEAKER_02 2:40

So I've been I've been fooling with it since about 2015. I started the business in 2019 and then I took it full time in 21.

SPEAKER_05 2:51

I gotcha. Okay, okay, good deal.

SPEAKER_06 2:53

So you had you had a little prior experience there and you started uh taking some client dogs. You just kind of onesie twosies there for a little while, you know, just building your clientele.

SPEAKER_02 3:02

Yeah, uh, you know, at first it was, you know, right like a lot of people, it's just a hobby. I was big into duck hunting. I worked a shift work job, and I actually took that job so that I could hunt more, you know, so that I was off during the day and I worked at night so I could go hunting every morning or afternoon or whatever shift I happened to be on at that time. And that kind of you know got me into where I wanted to get a dog for duck hunting. Bought my first dog, started training them, ended up meeting with the local pro and training with him some. He kind of introduced me to the hunt test side of things, the hunt test games. Once I ran my first one, I was immediately hooked, which led me to buy my second dog. And then eventually my third dog. And I think somewhere around between my second and my third dog, you know, I was starting to have a little bit of success with the first one. Friends, you know, people that knew me kind of took notice, which kind of led into, hey, you know, could you help me with with my dog? And back back then I was just doing it just for just for the love of the game, as the kids say, right? Like I was just doing it for fun. I really wasn't even charging people. And then eventually I just was charging them a little bit here and there. And, you know, after a while, I was like, you know, I could be, I could be doing this as a business, you know, and I was still charging a really low amount. And of course, I was still working a full-time job at the uh at the paper mill. So, you know, for me, it was just a side gig at that time. And then I don't know when it was, but at some point I I just kind of told myself, you know, I want I want to do this full time, and I really started taking it seriously. And at that point, I just kind of motive my motivated myself, you know, towards reaching that goal and having property, having facility, and and doing this as a career rather than just a part-time thing.

SPEAKER_01 4:51

Now, Connor, this is Will speaking. I I've got a quick question for you. When you did choose to go out on your own, hold on a minute.

SPEAKER_03 4:57

It ain't like we sound a lot alike.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

Just here and there, you know, you just never know.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

Well, I knew it was you.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

All right. My bad, but I you know, difficult enough on the phone to know the difference. Hey, there you go. Well, you know, I I when I went out on my own, I had a lot of fear and uh doubt, and you know, just of the unknown. So I want to kind of dive into your brain and see what that was like for you. Did you have those sleepless nights? Did you have those doubts? And you know, how did you work through all of that?

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Well, it's a funny story. So when when I was looking, I where I was living before when I was working at the paper mill, just a small, it was my first house. There's nothing wrong with it, but it was my first house. Didn't really have any land with it. I think I had like an acre to work with, and I knew the big thing I needed was property, right? So I started looking for places, I found this place that I'm at. I kind of planned the transition from working at the mill to to building full-time as this really slow, gradual process. And I'll never forget it. It was uh 3 to 11 shift, and I went into work, I clocked in like usual, and I I went to my station, I guess you could call it. My foreman came up to me and my coworkers and said, Hey, you guys, you know, there's been an issue. The the paper mills shipping department has been hacked. Okay. Pretty much for those of you that don't know, the shipping department, you know, they handle all the rolls, they put them on trucks, and they've got like a laser on the roll, or I mean on the forklift that scans the rolls and tells you, you know, which truck to put it in, which train cart to put it in. Well, when those guys were scanning those rolls, they scanned the barcode on the paper roll and it just came up on their screen and just said, uh, I hope this doesn't offend anybody, but it said FJB on it.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Does that mean Joe Biden? I hope that's a good idea.

SPEAKER_02 6:58

But yes, that's what that means. Um but anyway, they didn't know how deep this hack went, so they said, look, we're not gonna pay you uh until we figure this out. It's gonna be mandatory 12-hour shifts.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Oh gosh.

SPEAKER_02 7:11

And this is gonna be a few months, and we don't know the end of it. And at the time, I just bought my house that I'm at now. I I I I don't know, I might have had, I think I had like five or six dogs in training, very few. But I was committed to them. And, you know, working 12 hours a day, that doesn't leave me time, you know, on the side to train dogs.

SPEAKER_05 7:31

I'll never forget it.

SPEAKER_02 7:32

I took my hard hat off right then and there, and I handed it to them, and I said, I don't need this anymore. And I walked out right then and there, and I went home that night. And when I got home, I aired my dogs and I went inside and I sat down and I just said, Oh, crap, what did I just do? And I left the security that I had was, you know, even though I'd been planning to leave for a long time, it just kind of hit me all at once. And so, yeah, to to answer your question, yeah, I was super nervous. You know, I just woke up the next day. I think I made a Facebook post and you know, pretty much explaining that I was now full time and the phone started ringing, thankfully, and off I went.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Well, that's awesome. I know those those first few months and really even the first couple years is is nerve-wracking. It it was for me at least. You know, I moved to Gunner'sville and didn't know anybody, didn't I just moved into a regular old house in a regular old neighborhood and you know, I just started knocking on doors at pieces of property that looked, you know, good for dog training, and that's how I'm I've been very blessed to have several thousands of acres now that I can train on.

SPEAKER_06 8:40

I thought you were about to say you were knocking on doors trying to get clients.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

I was like, I I never heard of that, but I mean No, I did make a Facebook post though in the local Gunner's Community Connection, and that I started off day training for just obedience people, and I figure if I could get four four dogs in at fifty dollars a day for five days of the week, I could at least pay my rent. And you know, I don't eat a whole lot to begin with, so I figured I could make it work. Sure enough, I did. But it's uh, you know, like I said, it it is very scary when you're going out on your own, especially in this dog world where it's so small and it can be judgmental at times, but you know, that's just stuff that's just chatter in the in the windshield, I guess.

SPEAKER_06 9:29

Yeah, yeah. So did you you mentioned you had worked with a pro. Obviously, I don't know if you were on payroll or you're just going and throwing birds. Did you have any experience training with somebody, you know, prior to getting out on your own?

SPEAKER_02 9:46

Uh no, no. I never I never really worked for a pro, like in the sense like I know Will's worked for a few different people. No, I didn't work for a pro. I trained with one for a little while, and then through him, I met some other pros and I just kind of expanded my network as far as pro trainers go. And I would I would definitely try to train with really anybody that would have me. Anybody that had something to teach me, I was willing to learn. Um, and I think that's the best way, not maybe not like I'm not saying like that's the best way to be a pro trainer, but just the best mindset to have is be willing to learn something from anybody. You may not agree with everything they do, but a lot of people have something, you know, that you could learn from and just keep an open mind.

SPEAKER_06 10:31

Yeah, I agree with that. Now you had your personal dogs, and you got a who do you got? Jack? Who are your personal dogs? I'm trying to.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Well, we'll start with Briar. He was kind of the the first that started all this. Then then there was Jax. I had a dog named Rage that I sold, Swerve, Tootsie, who else somebody, and then I got a new dog named Jack, J C K, uh, or as we call them Big Jack. And those are my personal dogs. I gotcha.

SPEAKER_06 11:02

Okay. Uh Breyer and Jax, they had uh pretty pretty well accomplished dogs, aren't they? Correct me if I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

They are actually brothers, yeah. They're brothers from a repeat uh repeat breeding. A lot of people don't know that about them.

unknown 11:18

Breyer's real good looking, in my opinion, might be biased, but uh fox red male. Oh boy, and Jack, Jax is a black dog, yep. Breyer has his hunting retriever champion title. He's a master hunter.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

Jax is also HRCH, he's a master hunter. He's got a qualifying win, some placements, a bunch of other master master passes to match.

unknown 11:45

He's got one master national play.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Um Briar ran some cues, but you know my first dog, I made a lot of mistakes early on that I will admit, you know, that I made that definitely shaped me to be a better trainer for sure. Um he ended up jamming a few cues. He never did get me to color though. He never did, but he was my hunting dog and he still is. I still take him, and he's great at that. And just other than that, he's just a great all-around pet as well. I mean, just a joy to have around.

SPEAKER_06 12:16

Gotcha. So you're kind of in the middle between Will and I, as far as what what got you into training, meaning I didn't I didn't really ever train under anybody. Train at uh Will had spent some time training under uh some folks. So you're kind of right there in the middle, a little bit of a hybrid fix. Yeah. And you know, for for me, that was I would say that was kind of tough, you know, starting out because you're kind of just feeling your way around in the dark. Did you I know you had some direction there, but did you did you feel kind of that way when you were first getting started? Like did you feel like you were?

SPEAKER_02 12:53

I'll be honest, I still feel that way sometimes. You know, sometimes I still feel like, man, do I even know what I'm doing? You know, especially when you get a difficult dog. And I think that's when it's important to have people that you can call upon in times like that, you know, to to run things by. And I'm not afraid to say that I will call somebody if there's something that's giving me problems. You know, I'm not too good to admit that I'm I don't know it all. And uh maybe somebody else has an answer for the problem I have. But yeah, I always, you know, I've always felt like that.

SPEAKER_06 13:27

Yeah. Well, I you know, I I do the same thing. I don't know how many times I call you a week asking you questions.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

So we're not just good to bounce ideas back and forth off each other, you know.

SPEAKER_06 13:37

Yeah, I've got some guys that call me. It's just a big it's a big working circle. So that's good. Right. So you've been doing it, you know, if we add all these years up total, it's been about we all three of us have about 30 years of experience. It's pretty much pretty much pretty much at still old. Yeah, pretty much at veteran status at that point. So easy. Now you came down here and uh you know, Connor and I, we've been friends for this is Connor, this is Colton talking, by the way. We've been friends for oh gosh, what since probably 2021, maybe two, I think 20, maybe or earlier.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

Um yeah, yeah, I mean it was close to it.

SPEAKER_06 14:21

Yeah, and we started we fell in love on social media pretty much. Yeah, that's how we that's how we started our our friendship. That's cute. Yeah. This time I think it was Instagram and not Facebook, but we had kept an open line of communication for a long time, and uh you finally made your way down here after after what almost five years paid us a visit. I wasn't able to train that day. I was planning on it. We had yeah, my wife, we were getting ready to have a baby, so we were kind of running around like chickens with our head head cut off. But you finally made your way down here to go run. Master National's in Giddy, Gideon, how what's his name?

SPEAKER_02 15:00

Giddings, uh Giddings, Texas, Texas. Yep.

SPEAKER_06 15:03

Yeah, you made a little pit stop down here. Now, you met Will. Y'all were able to train that day. So but I did get to meet you. Yeah, I did get to meet you at one point, so I'm happy about that. I wish we could have stayed longer. Maybe we can maybe we can turkey hunt here soon. I know that's uh that's a hot topic, especially coming up.

SPEAKER_02 15:21

Don't tease me right now. Tease me with a good time.

SPEAKER_06 15:24

Yeah, I know. It's about all I can think about. Um we've got a little less than a week now, and I'm trying to trying to stay focused uh until then, but yeah, trying to just not really think about now. You went down, this was your first Master National ever, correct?

SPEAKER_02 15:38

So this was yes, this was my first showing at Master National. One of my personal females swerve went with a good friend of mine, Zach Wallett. He uh let's see, that was Paducah, Kentucky the year before. So she went, she got a pass, though I wasn't there, but yeah, this was my first first time being there.

SPEAKER_06 15:58

Okay. And you I would say you had a pretty good, pretty good little run, a little tear there, didn't you? Five for five.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

Four for five. We had we had five, we took five dogs, we got four of them through. I lost uh, I think it was my youngest, her name was Ellie. Lost her in the fifth series. It was a heartbreaker. She had a really good thing.

SPEAKER_06 16:25

How many series uh how many series is the Master National?

SPEAKER_02 16:29

Five. Six.

SPEAKER_06 16:31

Six. Okay, gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

But yeah, she had a she had a really great run going. Um and she broke uh in the in the fifth series on the last bird on the flyer. And it's just one of those things, you know.

unknown 16:44

I was I was still really, really proud of her.

SPEAKER_02 16:47

Um I don't know exactly what the judge's scorecard looked like, but she had a handle on a bird. Um, you know, in my mind, her blinds were really, really good. So, you know, from that aspect of things, I was still really, really proud of her.

unknown 17:03

You know, the fact that she made it that far and you know, up until that point was had a really good national going.

SPEAKER_02 17:10

You know, at the end of the day, she got a little excited and she broke set and was all it was.

SPEAKER_06 17:15

Well, you know, I was out with her. If there's one you're gonna break on, I mean, you might as well she's like, well, let's just go all out. We're gonna break on the flyer.

SPEAKER_02 17:23

I mean, yeah, at least she waited to the last bird.

SPEAKER_06 17:26

Right, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's a heck of a duck dog. If we're gonna break, we're gonna break on the flyer. So well, that's good. So you went four for five. I I'd say uh uh, what what's our what is it C? Is it the one that's we're gonna give you a golf clap here? I know you can't hear it, Connor, but we're gonna hear it. There we go. We gave you a little golf clap on the on the uh on the podcast clip.

unknown 17:48

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06 17:48

That's pretty good. First time going, and you're you know, you're you're four for five, and you had he had a dog go out uh because of the honor, wasn't really because of the the big work. So I would say uh that's pretty daggum good. How'd you how'd you feel riding back with that? I mean, I know he's a little upset about the the one he lost, but I mean uh that's a pretty good feeling there, ain't it?

SPEAKER_02 18:10

It it was. You know, I felt good, and like I said before, I was just super proud of the dogs. You know, I really felt like I was showcasing my best work there, and I I really couldn't be any more proud of the dogs that I took there. I was really happy with them.

SPEAKER_06 18:24

Yeah, and just to put that in perspective, you you know, you're traveling from Virginia all the way down to Texas. How that was what, about a 24-hour ride? Does that sound about right?

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Uh yeah, yeah.

unknown 18:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

About 24.

SPEAKER_06 18:36

So just to well, and and just again, to put this in perspective for guys that don't really think this is that big of a deal, you're you're riding your dogs 24 hours across the country, you're getting them out on new grounds, and you're expecting them just to hold it all together for you know a good week. That's a difficult task to do, and that requires a very well-trained animal and a very consistent animal. So that you know, if you're wondering why what makes these Master National and grand events that difficult, well that's that's a big portion of it. It's not as much the training, but it is it's just as much, you know, having a dog that that will travel and and be consistent when it shows up at a new place. So it's very, very hard thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 19:22

It's definitely not easy. I mean, but that's what makes it prestigious, and you know, that's why we all chase us, or those that do, you know, those those of us that chase it, that's why we do it.

SPEAKER_06 19:32

Yeah, absolutely. Well, we've got a good background on you. So you've been doing it since uh as a bit uh you know, officially since 2021. You've been been in the game, doing it here and there since 2015, and you're up there in Virginia. Now, is Virginia like a is that a you know, I've never traveled up the East Coast like that. Are are hunt tests or field trials pretty popular up there? Because I mean, down south, it's in the southeast, it's you know, I mean, there's a gun dog trainer on every corner. Is it similar to that up there?

SPEAKER_02 20:03

It is, it is. I mean, obviously you've got your you know, your your times of the year when you're not gonna have them. Um, but our our hunt test and field trial season, I guess you could call it, usually starts around March, you know, around this time of year. I think they got one next weekend close to here, and it'll normally go into June. So you'll have between August and then they'll probably get or sorry, June, between June and August, they'll get started sometime in September and then go from September to uh you know late November, something like that. So you got little breaks, you know, winter and summer.

unknown 20:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:42

It kind of works out good. Most of the time it's as much needed.

SPEAKER_05 20:45

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Nice. Nice. So you're my case.

SPEAKER_06 20:49

Yeah. So now in your kennel, are you are you training any and everything? Are you just uh an American Labrador guy? Do you got some British dogs in there? Are you uh Boykin Golden Pointers?

SPEAKER_02 21:03

I mean, what what I don't want to say I'll train anything, but uh we've got a mixture, we've got a few exotics in there. Um got a German wired hair pointer, uh, got a Weimariner in there right now. Um, but yeah, we've done fluffy goldens, Boykins, uh Spaniels, Shepherds, Chessies, Fieldbread Goldens. You know, of course, I've only done like one or two British dogs, I think, though. I haven't haven't had a whole lot of experience in them.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

Was that German Shepherd for Gun Bow? No, no, no, no, no. Just obedience. Okay, I'm just making sure.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

So, yeah, we get on to that too. I've I do a little bit of obedience. I don't do a lot. I don't advertise it a whole lot, but I do it's just it is something I offer.

SPEAKER_06 21:54

I gotcha. So you're you're you're pretty well, pretty well rounded in in dog personality. personality because you've you've you've touched them all really at this point. I think all of all of the retrieving breeds I would say.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah there's yeah all the retrieving breeds and some that aren't I've got my hands on.

SPEAKER_06 22:13

Well that's good. It makes you a bit makes you a better trainer because it uh you know absolutely it it makes you appreciate the Labradors and makes people you know it makes you understand man these dogs are just so nice that it's just a lot easier to train these jokers than it is some of the other ones.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Now you had one last year what was it a larger or smaller Munster lander that did is that oh yeah yeah Thor is a German Munster lander you know I really thought a lot of that dog and I'm a lab guy through and through I really did appreciate that dog.

SPEAKER_06 22:42

I mean he was actually a joy to train just the epitome of effort he gave such great effort every day I mean what how can you not love that yeah and they're like a they kind of look like a Springer Spaniel is that right is it are they kind of similar is yeah kind of a springer point I don't know it they're they're a unique looking dog.

SPEAKER_02 23:04

There's the guy that owned it uh the dog he kind of tried to educate me on them a little bit and I kind of tried to tune it out because I was thinking maybe I might end up buying one of these things if he tells me too much. So yeah I had there's a lot of really strict restrictions on breeding them supposedly and and selling them.

SPEAKER_06 23:22

You know they have to go to hunting homes supposedly I don't know if this is true or not but I had I had actually read up on that breeze like several years ago before you had mentioned you trained one and I was you know you're right because it's such a small breed it's very protected they are very And I can appreciate that yeah yeah yeah no no it they're there it's a neat little thing and I've always been curious of how they worked and then you said well I got one of these things in you guess what this is and I said well tell me about it and I was like because I I kind of I kind of know a little bit about them so maybe I'll get one one day I'm still working on getting a golden retriever though I've never had one of those they're fun they're fun they're big golden yeah a good one is fun yeah like a little fluff ball running out there it's not fun when they run in a a pile of cockle burrers though they are a pain in the butt to get out well I know like having the boykins you have to watch down because they do they get the dreadlock things yeah yeah yeah that's a fun these two yeah now was that dog you were running today Will was that uh I know one champ was a field bred but the what was her name Nellie I don't know if Nelly I don't know the pedigree to be honest but she looks like a couch fluffy dog but she'll surprise you she does some pretty good work. Now most of the fieldbred goldens y'all can educate me here they are red in color is that correct?

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Not all of them specifically but uh I'd say you're the vast majority yes um but you'll get different shades you'll get some that are that kind of bourbon color then you'll have some that are like a dark fox red and then you'll have some that are like a mix between a yellow lab and a fox red and it it just all varies.

SPEAKER_06 25:14

I gotcha okay because normally you know on the Labrador side you know the most of the yellows are your standard yellow color and then there's just a few fox red well there's more fox red now but it's kind of opposite on on field goals. Okay. Well we'll learn a little bit cool well Connor is now you are a you're a collar guy obviously um doing you got you know you've got a you got a pretty good collar program. I think the uh the results speak for themselves there. Um now it kind of give us like a 3000 foot view of your collar program like you know you're starting you know starting from basic obedience and then kind of getting into transition work. Let's kind of walk through it and we may stop you here and there and ask you some questions but I'm always I'm always curious to hear about somebody else's program because as the more I talk to people and the more we have conversations everybody's got a little bit different nuance to what they do and you know you got some guys that are hell bent on doing one thing you got some guys that don't think it's necessary. Let's just kind of walk through that you can start us with your basic obedience and and collar conditioning and kind of step through there I know there was one thing in there that that we talked about several years ago that I added into my program is is collar conditioning two place which I thought was a great a great addition to what I do and it's helped me tremendously so look why don't you kick it off there on on collar conditioning. So new dogs you know we kind of go through the whole uh settling in period learning just the basics of uh this is where you eat this is where you use the bathroom this is where you sleep coming in and out of the kennel that sort of stuff yeah uh but now do you notice well I was gonna say do you notice dogs do they like when they first come in and they've never been in a kennel environment do you notice them being kind of nervous for a while?

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Oh yeah that's not uncommon. Some I mean some don't uh I think a lot of it goes back to the type of socialization or the amount of uh you know an owner's done with the dog right dogs that have had a you know really good environmental really good socialization um tend to come in and and either fit right in right away you know or within a day they're they're acting back to kind of normal but you can always tell when a dog's a little reserved or you know a little timid when they first come in and it's not um it's kind of a shell shock I like to call it you know when they get to this kennel environment and there's all these dogs and it can definitely be you know a big a big shock to the dog. And in my opinion, you know you're really not going to teach a dog anything valuable during that timeframe. You really just need to at that point you just need to just try to be the dog buddy and let them know everything's gonna be okay and that's you're a fun guy and you're easy to get along with and you know kind of guide him through that that process.

SPEAKER_06 28:15

Yeah no I agree with that you said a week or two that's that's what I was thinking it takes it takes a dog a good week or two before you can really get anything of value done other than hey I'm your buddy and this is where your food comes from. So yeah that's good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 28:30

All right continue um so you know going through that you know we start with formal obedience like I was kind of telling you earlier I've got something to learn from everybody. I'm stealing this from Pat Nolan I love to train and drive with obedience I think that is such a cheat code um and with all aspects in training you know if you can use that that's the best but putting the dog in a state of drive you know to where it wants something and paying it for doing it right.

SPEAKER_06 28:56

Okay so can you for for the guys that may not understand that I think Will and I have got a pretty good understanding of it.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Can you give us something simple that would explain what that is you can you can take uh you know a pretty much a brand new puppy that really doesn't know anything but it likes to retrieve and you've got a ball or a bumper or something and the dog goes to sit and you name it, you know, or mark it and hey throw the bumper let him go chase it let them go pick it up give a bunch of praise you know and then all of a sudden that now the dog's correlating you know him sitting with getting the retrieve so that would be in this in a nutshell trading and drive. Yeah okay gotcha all right cool continue on um so get getting through all that you know we go through formal obedience you know we will introduce pressures there beginning either with a slip lead or a pinch collar are you doing any kind of are you doing any food work with your obedience? Oh yeah yeah and again that's another drive so you know you got parade drive and food drive um I guess I could kind of leave that one out but that's a big one. Food drive is big if I can do it with a dog I'm absolutely doing it with the dog. So getting off of that you know formal obedience that's gonna evolve into you know your collar conditioning uh to obedience like you were talking about earlier collar conditioning to place is something one of the first things that I actually like to do. So I guess I'll kind of dive into that on uh because I know you're gonna ask me so that I'm telling it I like to collar condition to place first. Now that being said I don't always do it. I'll give you a scenario of a dog I wouldn't collar condition to place if a dog has a terrible recall I I'm fighting to get him back in the kennel every night when I air them I'm gonna probably collar condition that dog to hear first. And this is just my belief but I believe the first thing you collar condition a dog to sticks the most.

SPEAKER_06 30:57

Yeah I could I could I can see how that makes sense. I mean it's like their first time learning something and you know you never forget your first time.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

So yeah that makes a lot of sense to me so I I usually try to you know in the times I'm doing obedience, you know, that first month or so, I try to find the dog's weakness. So if if I've got a real fire breather and he's all over the place you know and of course this time we're we're throwing them marks um you know even if they're short small and they there's not you know any factors to them or anything like that, we're we're throwing a mark. So you're gonna learn a little bit about the dog there too. And if I see the dog real jumpy and stuff like that, I might collar condition to sit first. Yeah. But on average yes I'd like to collar condition a place because the the action associated with place is leaving you and going to do something leaving you to go in place you know going away from you. Well what else is doing that? Well your blind retreats are doing that it's a really similar principle.

SPEAKER_06 31:52

Yeah that was why I liked it so much. It made my backpile and running blinds just a lot more cleaner. I mean we still had some hiccups here and there but it was still a lot more smooth as we as we went into it. So I like it. I love it.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Still doing I think I think when you compare it with you know training and drive using food like you said you know in the beginning and teach with food and then you can kind of transition that into a bumper or a ball and then eventually to either a a slip lead you know a choke chain style or a pinch collar and then eventually moving up to the collar I think it's a great way to go about it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 32:30

Cool. All right so we went through so we you know we've got the dog kind of doing a little bit for some fun stuff we went through on lead and then we you know as you're doing on lead work and getting into collar conditioning you kind of do those simultaneously now how long do you think it on average now it's obviously different for every dog you know on average how long do you think it takes from it for a dog to go through on lead obedience to trans you know transfer it over to the collar?

SPEAKER_02 32:59

A month and a half or so it's different for every dog but but yeah on average something like that.

SPEAKER_06 33:07

Yeah because like for me it usually takes like I I've got the dog on lead and after about two weeks I start putting the collar on and I'll keep the lead on for another three or four weeks in addition to that and just start slowly weaning that that lead off.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Is that similar to what you do yep yep I like to start putting the collar on early on even if I'm not using it wearing it just getting used to the feel of it that sort of thing but yeah that's that's that's pretty similar to to how I'm gonna do it.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Okay yeah good deal good deal will are you on the same page as that yeah I I am I am yeah pretty similar yeah no I I I really go about it the same way and it's I like Connor said training and drive if you can get that out of the dog at first that makes life a heck of a lot easier and you know it's crazy some dogs don't have any you know food food drive or food prey where I've tried to put a hot dog in front of a dog and they could care less about it and it makes life a little bit more difficult but usually if you can get them in a a young enough age to where you know not to say because I do think dogs that have had zero done with them is just as bad as dogs that have had you know wrong things done with them if that makes sense. But if you have a dog that's been well socialized that's confident that you know wants to work with you, I think that's the biggest thing that training in drive makes life a heck of a lot easier especially when it comes to just reinforcing with the collar because if you can get them doing things in drive and then go and just reinforce on a low level on top of that, then that makes life just a a lot easier. I guess I'll say this you know one thing as I get more and more into dog training I think a lot of what I do at a young age is teaching the dog how to turn pressure off and not necessarily condition them, right? So when you think about conditioning conditioning is really being able to take pressure at multiple different levels and that for me has and this is really in the past year year and a half has changed and I I do all my conditioning in the yard and typically it's on force to pile and it's conditioning to sit, condition to go, condition to come. And that's that's really where I do the vast majority of my conditioning um and not as much so when they're puppies but that's about it. Okay.

SPEAKER_06 35:51

Alright so we've we've got the pretty much basic you we're up to collar conditioning now. So it's it's at that point are you you know we're we've got some marks in the field going on. And we've got some collar condition so they're getting kind of the hang of what's going on and what we're you know starting to expect out of them. Now is this the point where you step into force fetch or are you gonna kind of let some stuff settle for a little bit let that collar condition soak in or are you going to roll right into it?

SPEAKER_02 36:21

You know if the dog's ready to force fetch will force fetch you know when is the dog ready you ask well that's kind of again it's or the dog you know they've got to be mentally mature enough they've got to be physically mature enough obviously you want all their teeth all their adult teeth in of course but it's it's gonna depend on that dog's training attitude a lot of times for me. Yeah I've had dogs that I force fetch you know very early on uh you know a month and a half to two months in I'm I'm in the middle of force fetch uh and I've had dogs that I force fetch three and a half four months into it and I just thought that was what best for that dog and it all worked out. So it's all for the dog.

SPEAKER_06 37:06

Yeah yeah because I've had some come in and we get through collar condition they're already kind of kind of mopey you know I will pause and just go to the field and start throwing marks yeah just to kind of get him fired back up.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

There's no timeline to there's nothing that says you have to force fetch at six or seven months old. Yeah you know there's nothing saying that you know there's nothing wrong with waiting. If your dog's ready to do it at six seven months old then that's great. Yeah but there's no it's not written in stone that you have to do that.

SPEAKER_06 37:35

Yeah I've noticed a lot of guys are kind of pushing that timeline back too is I think it was a common thing.

SPEAKER_02 37:41

Yeah you know for some reason it was it's kind of odd why it was I don't know what brought that about but and I mean heck I'm guilty. I used to kind of think that you know in the early days you know I just thought that was normal. I thought you should should be forced a dog at six months old but it's not always the case.

SPEAKER_06 37:57

Yeah I I tend to get I I as of late I've gotten better results doing it you know you know after eight months nine ten months I mean I've even forced some older dogs and and they went through it fairly quickly and and looked pretty good doing it. It was pretty smooth. So yes so it's so what we're gathering here in this conversation is you're you're very much you know you've got a general outline of how you want to run things but it's very dog dependent and you're doing a pretty good job of of reading the dog in front of you. Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

And I I'll yeah I'll say if there's one takeaway from you know about me is I almost every dog gets treated differently in some sense. You you have to train the dog in front of you this is this is not a cookie cutter program. And I don't think really anybody has a cookie cutter program for training dogs. They're gonna be custom tailored to each individual animal. Yeah in some way.

SPEAKER_06 38:53

I would I would say there's some probably older older older guys have been doing it a while that probably have a program and and would would say yeah this dog's just not going to fit in my program for how I like to do things. I I still think those guys are out there but I think your your newer guys are coming up and being a lot more flexible in what they are willing to do with the dog. And I think a lot of that's got to do with the amount of information that's out there and the advancement of collar technology as well. Allows you to be a little bit more allows you to look be a little bit more flexible. So cool so we're getting into so are you going to after force fetch you're gonna roll into backpile and T work is that your general progression there I'll break it down a step and do what's we're called walk and fetch.

SPEAKER_02 39:39

Okay I guess you could really consider that still part of force fetch. Yeah um you know I I name it walk and fetch uh but then yes backpile um we're gonna force to a backpile the big takeaway from that is just forcing in route which really isn't a isn't a super big deal. I don't stay there super long if I don't have to I would like to do a lot of my forcing in walk and fetch I guess I would say yeah get them to where I know they're they're responding to the collar in root and understanding it and doing it well and doing it reliable and then start working on T.

SPEAKER_04 40:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 40:16

Yeah I would I broken T you know a broken T, three handed casting that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_06 40:21

Yeah yeah I'm I I'm with you on that you know once the dog kind of gets you know because the way I look at it the dog had a pretty rough rough time in force fetch um you know it's just a it's a it's a difficult part of the process and so they come out a little wore down and you know the last thing I want to do is is wear them down even more on backpile. You know I want to get them rolling pretty good and once once they're consistent and going let's just go ahead and move on to the next thing and get that you know get that engine built back up get that that motor running. And I know we'll we'll disagree with me here but I think that works that mentality works pretty well with British dogs because you have to you got to watch out with them.

SPEAKER_01 41:00

You can wear them down kind of quick I don't I don't necessarily disagree I just I just think that you can train a British lab just like an American lab and have the same results.

SPEAKER_06 41:13

Alright we're gonna we're gonna stick a pen in this we might bring this up at the end of the podcast or it might be a whole nother episode because I've got something for you to chew on. Me? Yeah but I'll do it later. Okay. All right Connor back back to you uh so we we've got the T drill now are you a double tee guy? You know there's some guys that are that we're gonna do double T every time I'm not one of them I like to go from T to three pole and then get to rocking what about you?

SPEAKER_02 41:41

No I'm I'm not a double T guy I've done it before I didn't felt like I got anything extra that I wasn't getting off the T. I'll go from T, I usually go into a wagon wheel after that and then I'll go into what I call spin drill um it's just basically two backpiles now, you know roughly 20 yards apart and just kind of differentiating the left and right back cast because in the T drill the left and right back cast meant go to the same place.

SPEAKER_06 42:11

Ooh that's a good drill I hadn't I hadn't thought about that. I may have I may I may try that that's a good drill I had I honestly super simple it's super easy and I you know it's just a baby step before I start building my pattern blind field with a dog that I think really helps that transition just go a little bit smoother.

SPEAKER_02 42:30

You know and again look I didn't invent this stuff this is not you know me being an innovator this is stuff I've taken from other people so don't let me take credit for anything you hear I don't think is anything that I'm I invented.

SPEAKER_06 42:45

This is stuff I've seen from other guys that that I adapted and you know meshed into my own program I guess you could call it yeah and I and you well and you start noticing after you know everybody's pretty much on board with collar condition enforced fetch uh you know as far as that process goes and that cadence after that it's like everything starts diverging everybody's got their own yeah you know their own nuances to how they want to do it and and how they build their dogs prior to so we worked off of T drill then we're going to wagon wheel and then we're gonna do your spin drill as you call it and then we start working on our pattern blinds. Now that that's a good place to kind of insert this question when when do you start your water work is this simultaneous look you know simultaneous with your your tea drill are you doing water tea or are you going to go ahead and get them running pretty good on land before we go back to water and do the water tea?

SPEAKER_02 43:41

I think a lot of that's going to depend on the time of year. I'm not a guy that travels north and south you know I I'm staying put not saying I won't go travel train sometimes but I'm not spending the winter in Florida or South Carolina training. So you know when it's cold we don't train in the water you know it's frozen or it's just too cold to train in. So If I've got a dog, you know, coming out of the tea, I do like to kind of get their tea before I go to water. I might do like a little bit of, you know, just force it to the water to like a backpile, you know, on the other side of a little pond or something while they're in tea. But I I would prefer to probably be done with tea. And then I can start doing, you know, I can wake up in the morning and do a quick wagon wheel before I leave the kennel. And then when we go to the ponds, we can we can work on, you know, some sort of swim by ask something with the dog given, you know, whatever state of training they're in. But yeah, if I can do it at the same time, that's great because I feel like I'm double dipping and I don't feel like it's interfering with one another. I feel like it actually works together.

SPEAKER_06 44:42

Yeah. Yeah. Well, putting them in the water kind of slows them down and makes them think. I I agree with you there.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

But if I don't have that, you know, and if it's if it's a if it's winter time and I'll just I'll just train on land and I'll just keep on training them up and we'll get on through pattern blinds and you know, just depending on I've had dogs that had no water work but could run a cold line on land.

SPEAKER_06 45:02

Yeah. Well, see, I even even though weather permitting, I still will will get those dogs kind of all the way through, getting them running some pretty decent land blinds, and then choke it all back down and go start teaching the the water tea. Now, at that time, we're I'm still putting them in the water, uh, you know, doing short, you know, short blinds. So we're getting some water work, but I I like to get them, you know, I got to get them building up a pretty good bit of momentum on land and then jump back over to water and start fine-tuning it and and really polishing it up.

SPEAKER_02 45:37

So and uh to to cap on this too, I've had dogs that went vice versa, and that I did more in water prior to late. Yeah, and it worked better with those dogs. And I'll give you a tip a really fast dog, you you might get more of it doing water work, you know, swim by esque stuff.

SPEAKER_04 45:55

Yeah. Well, I I had to do that. Yeah, I had to do that a couple weeks ago.

SPEAKER_06 46:02

I put everybody up the water because they were had several, I didn't mean they weren't all just you know running hot, but uh there were several fast dogs that were just getting too quick on land. They were sitting kind of sloppy, they were spinning too quick when I'd give a cast, they weren't really thinking. And I was like, we need to put you guys on water to slow you down a little bit. So no, that's a that's a very good tip. Now, Will, are you are you in that same camp with with Connor or what what's your what's your thoughts?

SPEAKER_01 46:28

Yes, it's all dependent on the time of year, but I I like to put them in the water as much as I possibly can. And you know, uh obviously I'm not gonna throw something super cheaty until they're de-cheated. But no, I I will put them in the water and try to push them, but just make it black and white, you know, where I'd I'll throw a splash a lot of bumpers. Last summer when I was at Alex Washburn's, I had several dogs that were not through swim by or anything like that or even handling, but you still have to figure out how to put them in water because it's such an important part. It really is the most important part, in my opinion, of training, regardless if you're running hunt tests, field trials, or just having a hunting dog, then you'd be able to get in the water. And so, you know, you just make it as black and white as you possibly can and give them a good target to look at by make you know making it visible and just let them roll until you're ready to advance them and teach them how to swim past a gun and um angle out of the water and you know, decide to get into the water if it is cheaty, all that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_06 47:38

So I I I do think I need to address that I I think there might have been a little bit of under misunderstanding early on. I do put my dogs in the water throughout training. It's not like we're just running all on land. I just my water stuff is very simple and black and white as as we're doing our tea work and our pattern blind stuff. It's just very easy, straightforward stuff, and we're building good habits there. So it's kind of, I guess, of a little bit of a British approach there. We're just we're just doing it right so many times, hoping that that eventually it'll it'll take root. But I will go back and reinforce it later. So just wanted to make sure I addressed that. I I had a friend ask me about that, and I was like, all right, let me make sure I clear that up. All right, Connor. So we've pretty much got the I think we've got pretty much the groundwork and transition work out of the way. Now you're you're back on you got your water tea done right. Are you a swim by guy? Because the I guess I was calling water tea and swim by the same thing, but it's they they essentially they are okay they are the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 48:42

You know, you could put a pile at every single side, but at the end of the day, you know, if on the water tea, I assume you'd still make them get back in the water and not just you know get out on one side and then cheat on the way back.

SPEAKER_06 48:56

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. Yeah, that's like the big thing I would be addressing is coming back with the bumper in your mouth in the water. Yeah. And swim by you. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:06

Yeah, we're gonna make sure. I think that's where it turns from water tea into swim by you. That's the that's your big difference, yeah, is to seek greater water, you know.

SPEAKER_06 49:15

Yeah, because when you start having a bumper in your in their mouth and you start making them do it with a bumper in their mouth and they do it right, this like it's almost like, yeah, y'all know exactly what I'm asking. So you're you know, you're lying to me from now on.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Casting is hard.

SPEAKER_06 49:28

Yeah, now you're lying to me from now on if you don't take the cast. So I you know, after that point, you pretty much just get to the field and and you know, get to hacking and get to rolling and throwing some marks. Now, uh, oh and of course we could open that up. I don't know that we've got the time to do that to really cover your you know, probably what what all you would do with your marking setups and and young dogs, but I'm always intrigued with with with the handling aspect of training because I think it's just a really big part of training that requires the dog to work with you. You know, marking, obviously the dog has to work with you, but it's more independent, and I will leave that open for y'all to make that assessment. But I I'm just I for me personally, I just think getting the dog to work with you and work for you during those handling drills and obedience and force, I just it just seems uh you know, a pretty fun little thing for me. I just always think it's interesting. And is there anything that you do in training that you feel like maybe against the norm, maybe something that other folks don't do or wouldn't even do? Is there is there anything like that that you feel is unique to Connor at Coastline Counts?

SPEAKER_02 50:47

I don't think there's any one thing that I do that you know makes me unique, other than all the little bits maybe I take from everyone else and then make it my own, you know, where I think some people are kind of hard in their ways and I don't just I just don't think I'm like that at all. Um I think I'm very open to trying new things with dogs because I've had dogs that have struggled and the traditional methods or even some of the other ones, you know, that you hear of just don't work. So to answer your question, no, I don't really think there is anything that makes me super unique as far as I don't have any secret training methods or you know, anything like that. There's nothing that's a secret that I'm doing.

SPEAKER_06 51:32

I wish there was some big secret that that we could all find out that was just a magic, you know, just a magic fix for all of our problems.

SPEAKER_02 51:38

Yeah, unfortunately, it's just I just don't.

SPEAKER_06 51:41

Yeah. So all right. So now that we have a little bit of time, we we've got Connor, we can get Connor's input on this. Now we can open this up on another episode. I really don't want to because the the British dog versus American dog debate has been, it feels like it's been discussed uh a nauseating amount. But now you you don't think that the American dogs are different than the British or British dogs are different than the American dogs?

SPEAKER_01 52:11

I'm sure that there are differences, but it's the same thing with the lab, whether it's British or American versus a golden. And the way I train a golden is the same exact way that I train a lab. Now there may be different little things you have to finesse here and there to get more out of them, but the the process is the same and the standard is the same. And there may be just different I don't I don't know any specific example off the top of my head, but to all those British guy people out there, I d I just don't think using the British versus American as a crutch to you know less dog or a lower standard, I guess, is my thing.

SPEAKER_06 52:58

Well, I would agree the standard stays the same. I don't think my I don't think my standard is any lower. I still have the same expectations as I would no matter what I was training. Same thing for my boycons. But our discussion today, we were kind of talking about how I was doing my handling stuff. Like I'll do a little bit of tea, I'll get them rolling pretty good, get them doing some three-pole, and then I'll go, then I'll go start hacking a little bit on some blunts, and then I'll come back and go further into three-pole and five-pole, and we'll go run. It's a lot of back and forth, and I do that because you have to bounce with the British dogs their love for the game and getting them to do it the right way. Because if it's too far one way or the other, we know what happens if it's all fun, it always falls apart. But if we on the other end with the British dogs, if it's too much of the right thing in the right way, they will be very slow and sluggish. And so what I mean by that is British dogs. Now I'm talking in averages here, not talking about specific ones, but always an outlier. If it's step by step, I have noticed with the amount of British dogs that I train, and it's the same thing over and over until it's completely right, they wear down really quickly and they're not very stylish. And that's the goal for me as a trainer is to keep the momentum high and the drive high while doing it right. And so I feel like going back and forth. Now I'm not saying do like a week of tea and then start running bonds. Like we're gonna cover T and Three Pole for you know about three months, and then we're gonna start hacking, and then we're gonna come back and clean it up, then we're gonna go back out and hack, then we're gonna come back and clean it up, and eventually it polishes up pretty nice. Now, Will, you were saying we need to, I'll let you interject here. Connor, we'll let you talk too in here in just a second. Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Well, I used to do that. I used to get a dog through the T and without going and running a lot of a lot of pattern blinds and just go see and try to run whether it's a bucket blind, cold blind, whatever it was. But in today's scenario, running a cold blind and them I the logic does not make sense to me anymore. I think they need to be properly conditioned in the yard. And when I say conditioned, I mean like properly conditioned in the yard and then covered thoroughly, right? Yes. Okay. But and then, you know, you go run your pattern blinds and then go back to cold blinds, and I would never come back to the T after that, ever. Now I may go back to three pole if they're not wanting to or five pole, whatever, to you know, if they're not changing direction all too well. But in my opinion, if you do a little bit of this and then go out into the field and try to hack something out, and then all of a sudden they're not wanting to sit on a whistle, then they're getting pressure for that, then they're not wanting to cast, then they're getting pressure for that, and then it it it all just and for lack of better terms goes to shit. And then you have to go back to the yard to kind of bring them back up. So my point was Colin, I don't think it's smart to do something halfway and then go up and hold a certain standard out in the field when it's not been completely done in the yard.

SPEAKER_02 56:43

Can can I jump, can I try?

SPEAKER_01 56:45

Yep, go ahead.

SPEAKER_02 56:47

So all right, I'm I'm hearing both sides right here, and I and I agree with both to a sense. So I think like Colton, for me anyway, and I'm gonna and I'm guess I'm asking you and I'm telling you kind of for me, the my biggest takeaway from the T are kind of what I call the three commandments, go stop, go. Um, yes, go when I tell you to go, stop when I tell you to stop. If I have to, you know, recall, say on a cast of diesel or something like that, they can they can return to me. But the going and stopping for sure are the two biggest uh takeaways from that. And it's it should be rock solid. Yeah, because without the stop, you know, you have nothing. Without the go, you have nothing. So you know, you need all of that together. So, like Will was saying, your yard work has to be spot on before you can move on to that, your you know, your recall, your step. Um you go, I guess we're gonna lose we're gonna go back pile into yard work because it's yard work too. Um all that has to be solid. Now, to touch on your side, I personally don't think I've ever had a dog that's gone through the program. We've done every step and every micro step, and I get to that first gold line and they look like a master dog. It just doesn't happen. Yeah, it's not the degree of anything with with every dog you run. But I'm I'm kind of bouncing back and forth between the two of y'all. I'm agreeing with well, I'm not going back to T. That groundwork has been laid and that has been sentenced down. Um, and if it and if it hasn't, then shame on me. I must have messed up. I have had to do that. And I've I've really sensitive learned that I really need to make sure that is the big takeaway. And when I was first getting started, you know, I was so wrapped up in the dog being able to run the T drill, I was kind of missing the big picture of the most important part of this is go when I tell you to, you know, when I say back, stop when I blow the whistle and and change directions or go again.

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yes. And Connor, I agree with you 100%. And it's just like handling on marks, right? So when the first time you ever try to handle on a mark, it's probably gonna be a shit show. And same thing when you go run your first cold, yes, there is there's always that transition period from you're kind of taking off the training wheels, but the you know that that part hasn't there's gotta be so much more done prior to that before I go and try to enforce something in the field.

SPEAKER_06 59:22

And now I will say those dogs are in are in the hacking, are in a hacking phase. So yeah, I mean you're it it did not look pretty and intentional too. That was that was a blind that was relatively tough for them and and done done on purpose. Now, I will agree with all of that stuff that y'all said. I will make sure that I reiterate the the sit, the come, the go, the cast, all of that is covered very well. And those dogs are doing it exceptionally well before we go out there and start hacking. Never would I ever teach a dog a tea drill in a week and then go throw him out there. That's not what we're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:00

Well, I think as long as you have control of the dog, then you know, it's because if he if you can stop him at any given point in time, um, he goes really well, he leaves you really well. The the change in directions and the learning the cast, you know, it it'll come.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:16

And I was patient and you're not over enforcing things, it will come. Yeah, and we were having you'll give that cast and they'll accidentally have success, and then that's alert, then all of a sudden that dog learned.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:27

Yeah, now see, the dogs are having some sit issues today. And I for me, I expect some sit issues as we go to start hacking blinds because my dogs are gonna be running with with some intensity most of the time. So I expect them to you know be excited and and maybe not maybe slip a whistle here and there. And I will say again, all of that's covered, and I feel like it's covered well, but where I will diverge off is I'm not gonna sit there once those dogs get it, I'm not gonna sit there and continue to make them get it and continue to condition it to where it's almost robotic.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:06

All right, sh tell me and the reason being tell me what's robotic though.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:10

But what's talking like the T drill, or are you talking about yeah, at any point where we're running T drill or or if we're running three pole or five pole. Once the dog gets it and it looks pretty decent, I'm going straight to the field and we're gonna we're gonna start hacking. If we start having issues, we're gonna go right back to the pattern blind field and we're gonna clean it all up again. Now, I wouldn't I I haven't a lot went back to the T. Now, if we got something that's just really egregious, yes, I will go back to the T and clean that up. But that's that's few and far between. So we're I'm I'm I am very pro bouncing back and forth, and the whole the whole point of it is because the majority of what I have are British stocks, and what you have to be careful with is if you sit there and you drill something with them to where it's just constant, and it we we've covered it and covered it and covered it and covered it and covered it. They are going to wear down and they're gonna run like poo-poo. They're not gonna be happy to do the job. So you have to teach it, get them being successful, and then let's go show them why we're why we're teaching this. All right, they kind of fudge it up, we're gonna go back and polish it up some more.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:29

But the the only and I'll just play devil's advocate is if they get to that point in the yard and then you go try to run a cold blonde, and then they're getting pressure for not sitting or not taking a cast or just almost freezing, then that's just negative on negative, which in my opinion does not make positive. And so I guess that's where my misunderstanding is coming from is if you say British dogs, you know, if you drill them to death, they're just gonna lollygag around, then okay, but then you go and run a coal bond and they're getting burned for this, burned for that, and everything else under the sun. How does that make them go back to yard work and be more happy and then translate to going back out into the field? I I just think that there's a bigger issue at hand.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:17

Yeah, I get that. And you have and that's something you have to watch. You have to like today we had a pretty rough day. So the next you know, several times we're out, we're gonna make sure that the pressure's low, if there's any, and we're gonna make sure the success rate is pretty high, and we're gonna build that confidence back up. I get what you're saying. Uh, that that makes total sense. But when you have the structured program where you go through it and go through it and go through it and go through it, I don't think the dogs handle that well. Now, why is that? I don't really particularly know about British dogs. It seems like to me when everything's very cut and dry and just one step right after the other, they don't seem to do as well as far as momentum and love in the game.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:55

Now, I've seen that with with you know American dogs. I've seen that happen.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

They just don't enjoy the drill work because it's it's almost monotonous. And you you can get that with you can get that with any dog, right?

SPEAKER_06 1:04:08

So so but it's just so if if if British dogs and American dogs are the same, I will pose this question. Then why are there not more FC, Master National, and Grand Hunt Retriever British dogs and a slew of guys that have had American dogs for a long time ranting and raving about how easy the British dogs are?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:29

Well, one thing to me is I think there's there's been so much mixture these days. Now, you know, and I think a another big thing is you know, not necessarily the British dog versus the American dog, but the different styles of training, the American style versus the British style. The British style, no collar, American style is collar. And I think that's you know, where a lot of these differences come into play. But at the end of the day, you know, uh, in my opinion, the standards should be the same. And you know, if a dog's getting down for any reason, that's just you know part of it. But you're to say American dogs aren't going to get down or whatever, I just I disagree. And I that's why I think that uh just too many people are using, hey, I tr or this is a British dog as a crutch for something else.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:23

Well, I don't think I don't think I'm using it as a crutch, and but but they do have to be you have to be tactful with them in how you approach training. Yeah, they're going to have to feel pressure at some point, and you know, that's our job as trainers, is trying to coach them through it and lead them through it. But I've just noticed for whatever reason it might be, if we sit here and we sit on tee for uh you know two months, the dogs come out worn down. And I know some American dogs do too, but and we go to the pattern blind field and we wear that out for two or three months. And then we and then you know you can still go and start hacking out your blinds and it's still gonna look muddy and still gonna look dirty. I just think the British dogs like to bounce around and and be in different areas and do something new and different, and it keeps their momentum high and their drive high and their love for the game high. Now I know that sounds counterintuitive to most training programs now. But I think a lot of guys that have British dogs and have trained a bunch of British dogs would probably agree with me. Drill work is not now you'll you'll still have one or two that like drill work, but drill work is not the friend of a British dog. It's gonna wear them out and they're gonna come out and they're not gonna come back up. No, that's just what I've seen with the 40 or 50 that I've had under my belt. I'll leave it at that. And they come out by the time the finished product is done. I it looks the same.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

Moment of silence.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:07

Um it's okay. We can I can edit out the moment of silence.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:11

No, no, it's fine. It's fine. I see what you're saying. I just I hear what Will's saying. I see both sides. A lot of stuff got touched there.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:22

Yeah, yeah. No, I see both sides of it. I that's what I'm saying. I agree with both sides. Say that again. I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:29

I've I've done what you're I've done what you're doing. But it was against my wishes.

unknown 1:07:35

I did it for the dog at that time.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:37

That is specific dog in a certain cases, I guess. That's not the way I like to do it. I'm I'm with will on the side of I would much rather produce a solid foundation. That's and look, I've heard you say perfect. I am not looking for perfection on the tea. I am, however, looking for perfection on imperfection is a kind of a bad word, but I'm looking for reliability. Um goes dot com. If I'm running the tea with a dog and I and I'm looking to move on to the next step, I guess, you know, some trainers might say, well, they have to run it perfectly. They have to take every cast, they have to do all this, they have to do all that. I'm not looking for that. I'm looking for the dog that's gonna go every time I say go and stop every time I say stop. And if he gives me a cast refusal and I can stop him, just calmly say no and give the give the cast again, and he takes it, I'm I'm winning, in my opinion. But he went well, he stopped well, you know. I'm I'm almost ready to move on at that point.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:46

Yeah, and I will say, and and that's when I move on too. I mean, now all of those dogs, all of the dogs that we ran today, we're doing all those things.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:55

Now, now hold on, Will, would you agree with that? What I said.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:02

Uh yes, so uh I I'm not one to just hammer and hammer and hammer uh other than force to pile, force to pile, I was now I stay on that the longest because that's where I'm really conditioning them. And so I I will stay on that, but from there on I'm trying to get the ball rolling, and this comes back just to uh you know work life not necessarily work-life balance, but you have to be balanced. You don't want to do yard work every every single day. You you know, if a dog is not enjoying yard work, maybe do it twice a week. If a dog is doing well with yard work, maybe do it four times a week. But they don't necessarily need to be put under that much you know mental stress every single day, or because you will get that dog that starts to shut down. But yeah, I I do agree with you. I'm not I don't look for perfection in anything, whether it's marking, handling, you know, and that's why I like to put a whole line of bumpers out when I start to run cold bonds, is because if they give me a good cast, I want them to run into a wall of bumpers and just carry that cast for as long as they're carrying. Yes, correct. But um, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:18

So yes, I agree. Well, I will say this, guys, it it kind of sounds like we're all leaving leaving the the the same spot in training at the same time, like I'm doing all that stuff. You know, what might have happened today is if dogs might have just had a bad day. I had three females in heat, so all on the trailer. So that very well could have been some of it too. They might have just had a bad day. I just don't have I was I don't have a problem going going back steps in training if I need to. And I and I think that's a big part of my program. So I'm I'm good with going back. I plan on going back and covering stuff.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:54

All right. So I think there there's a lot of to be said about when you say going back, I I will go one step back during that transition between steps if I run into problems.

unknown 1:11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:12

Um but I I that doesn't happen with every dog, I'll say that. And I don't plan to do that. That's something that's kind of taken on the run. You know, uh four fetch is a big one. When I come down off the table to the ground, you know, mid-session. If I've if I'm just start hitting a wall with a dog, we'll just walk him right back to the table on leash. You know, go right back to it. You know, that's a that's a kind of an example of going back a step. You know, if I'm trying to go to walk and fetch and we're just not putting two together. Well, that's simple enough. Let's just stop what we're doing, go right back to walking uh to the table and we need some more time here. That's okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:49

Yeah.

unknown 1:11:50

You know, uh pattern blinds and cold blinds.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:52

When I'm teaching a dog to run cold blinds, usually I like to run pattern blinds every day. Maybe not every day, but and I I like to do it in the morning. I'm a drill morning guy. I don't like to do it in the afternoon. I like to go get my drills done first thing and then go to the field and run my setup, you know, with the cold blinds or something like that. So if I got a dog that's learning how to run cold blinds, we're gonna go try to run some pattern blinds in the morning and then go out to the field. And so there's a, you know, and if I run into a bad uh cold blind or something like that, I might go that afternoon and try to isolate whatever issue it is on my pattern blind field. Yeah. Try to find a way to isolate it there.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:34

Now, do you do you still run pattern blinds? Or like once you start cold blinds, that's it, Will.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:39

No, I I I'll go back to like the the direction change is the big thing. So when they're first going out and starting to run cold blinds, if they're just you know, scalloping, scalloping, scalloping, I'll go back to pattern bonds, but I won't go back to the T or you know, I uh uh part of the pattern bonds is set back. Yeah, yeah. I mean it it's and I agree with you with the going down to the ground after Force Fetch, if it's just not clicking, then we're going back to the table and then going and not necessarily going right back to the ground, but just to give them a little bit of a reminder. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:17

So I'm confused as to what we're really arguing about then. If y'all are going back on pattern lines and I'm going back to the same, we got common ground. Yeah, I was about to say we're all going back to pattern bonds, we're all going back and do the same thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:28

Well, no, the the and I guess the one thing that you know caught my mind is when today we were training, and you're uh that's not Shay, the whatever boycan that is.

SPEAKER_06 1:13:40

Yeah, she's been she's been wanting to to just bail out and come back in and quit and quit. Yes, she's wanting to quit.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:47

But you know, you said she's on force to pile, and then I was like, well, why the hell are you running a coal bond with the bar that's on force to pile?

SPEAKER_06 1:13:55

I misunderstood what you said. I said she's doing some force to pile right now because it every because we've been trying to work on this and it hasn't been getting any better because she was already past, you know, she was running three-pole when she left, so that's what we've been working on. So she just came back and we've been trying to work through it, and it's not working. So I'm going back to force to pile and trying to clean it up, and I'm just trying to figure out you know, that's what we've been doing. I wanted to see today if anything was sticking, wasn't really, so we need to just keep on doing what we're doing and and going back and fixing that problem.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:29

That's that's fair.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:31

Okay. So we just had a big misunderstanding there.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:33

I reckon. Huh, how about that? Look at that, guys. Well, I still I still think them damn British dogs are a crutch.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:40

I'm just telling you, look, look, I you still didn't really answer my question, though.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:44

If they're not gonna use that crutch for American dogs when they break, oh, he's just an American dog.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:49

I'll give you that. Hey, I I I'll give you that. I've seen more American dogs break than British dogs, that's for sure. But look, I mean, that's a good point. If if American dogs and British dogs are the same, why are they not more grand and masternational and FC British dogs?

SPEAKER_02 1:15:03

All right, I'll answer that. I just don't think they're they're relatively new to America.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:09

Oh, they've been here for a while, they've been here for a while now.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:12

Not as long as American Labs.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:14

Actually, the American Labs came from British Labs, they were imported over from England.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:18

Well, that's what I'm saying. It's all there, they're all mixed. Oh man, it is uh that was But my look, my big thing is a golden retriever that can be trained uh Americanly styled or whatever. If a golden can, I damn sure promise you a British can. Promise. No, I'm sure some of them can.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:44

I think you have to be, I do think I I I think we can all three, I hope maybe two and a half of us, can all agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:54

You have to be tactful with the British dogs.

SPEAKER_06 1:15:57

You have to watch what you're doing. You have to watch everything you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:59

I think you have to be tactful with every dog you train. I agree.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:03

I okay, I'm not disagreeing.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:05

I think there's certain dogs that may happen to be more American than British dogs that are more forgiving. They're more tolerant of your trainer handler mistakes. And I'll say uh British dogs, I'm gonna throw English dogs in there. Um, you're not gonna go dishing out a bunch of heavy-handed corrections. That's what yeah, that's that's what I think that you're gonna do something with it because it's not gonna work. So I see your side of that thing. Um but then they're uh you know, on the same breath, you're not gonna do it to most American dogs either.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:39

So it's it's that that and I look I'll tie that things. I'll tie that all back into how you condition the dog. I think too many people ease through the yard and don't really condition their dog. So if a dog's not properly conditioned and then they go get you know a bigger correction than what they're used to out in the field, they shut down. And it doesn't matter if it's a a black lab, a chocolate lab, or British lab, American lab, a golden, it all comes down to the fundamentals and what kind of fundamentals that dog has in placed and instilled in their you know life. Because, you know, in my opinion, if uh any dog is conditioned well enough, then they will be able to handle it. Now, if the conditioning is not there, then you know you just never know what's gonna happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:27

And you don't have to use a bunch of pressure to condition a dog well.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:30

Yeah, I I I agree, I I do agree with that, but I think that it's important to work up and down the levels. Like so when I force a dog to the pile, I'll stop them a foot away from the pile, and that dog better sit, and then I'll call them not all the way back to me, but I'll call them within you know five yards of me, and I'll go sit, burn, sit, burn, sit, burn, and work my way up and down the collar, and I want a stable response where they're just sitting there and taking the pressure. It's uh and for lack of better terms, it's burn practice, and then I'll cast them and you know, cast them to the pile, and then I'll go to the point where I send them on back, and then I barely blow the whistle, and I want that dog sitting because they're anticipating it and not just burning through. And so if they don't sit, then you blow the whistle louder and then give that correction. And it's you know, I I I I used to ease dogs through the yard, and everyone, you know, still will if I have to, but uh I think if you want a very stable, you know, headstrong or not headstrong, that's not the right term terminology, but just a dog that can handle it, they have to be able to go up and down, you know, and handle pressure. Because there's gonna be a point in time, and we all know it, that we're gonna give a bigger correction than what pr is probably needed. And if they've not gotten that in the yard at some point, it's all gonna blow up. And like I was talking to Chris Travis the other week that if you go and have one mark and it just turns into a shit show, and then you know, you know that dog needs to repeat that mark. If it's not been properly conditioned, good luck trying to get that dog to go on that same mark again.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:16

Wait a minute, are you talking about like he had to handle on the mark and they got some pressure? Or is you like trying to fix a line? Yeah, okay. All right, I I was I understood that. I was making sure that people were listening, understood that. Okay, I gotcha.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:28

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:29

So well, it's you all dogs you're and you're trying to condition a range, you know, and all dogs' ranges will will differ, but you know, we're just gonna pick out a collar here, a dog for collar. You're you're trying to create a range. It doesn't mean you need to touch the highest level of the collar.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:47

Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:48

It doesn't need it doesn't mean you need to live on the lowest level of the collar between a one and a two, right? You know, but between a two and a and a four or something like that, you know, the dog should experience some variation levels of intensity.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:00

Um, because when the distractors are up, you know, what's gonna come next? You know, it's gonna be a a a hotter correction in order to change the behavior of the dog, right? So they need to learn how to cope through those kind of situations, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:14

Um Is that making any sense? I I absolutely and uh to me, you know, it when I'm going through Forest of Pile, I want that I want to make the dog uncomfortable. And it's not on day one or day two, and a lot of times not even the first week, but I want to make that dog uncomfortable to where they are thinking about no going, or if they banana and you know, avoid a straight line, or if they avoid a straight line back, and you know, even when the dog's coming back after you start to teach it on a whistle or to sit on a whistle, and they're coming back, and then all of a sudden they want to stop in the middle where they're typically stopped, nick here. And it's not a super high nick, but it's you know, here means here and don't do anything else until I you're told to. Sit means sit, don't do anything else until you're told to. Go means go, and don't do anything else until you're told to.

unknown 1:21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:07

Good stuff.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:08

How did we get on how did we get on conditioning? Where where was the jump? I must just the I must have I must have a butterfly float away or something.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:17

No, that we're this this is just going back to the basics and you know the fundamentals. If they if they don't have that in place and it's put in place by conditioning, then when you go out into the field and they get that correction, then that's when shit hits the stand.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:35

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. You go I I'm I'm with y'all on that. I agree with you. I got you. I'm picking up what you're what you're putting down. Well, look, Connor, it was it's been good having you on here. We were glad uh thanks for having me. Yeah, glad to glad to get a good background on coastline kennels and and have a good railed conversation.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:58

Sorry, it's getting late in here, guys. Have a good rail conversation and uh celebrate that Master National uh that you did.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:06

I was I've been wanting to make sure you get some applause for that, because that was a very big accomplishment for you because you work your tell off. Thank you, buddy.

unknown 1:22:15

I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:16

Yeah, absolutely. And I appreciate you entertaining mine and Will's latest uh um rhetoric uh conversation uh argument. Uh give the people what they want.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:28

Well and we'll and Will, I never got a chance to say this, I don't or maybe I did, I just don't remember, but thank you for having me down when I was traveling and letting me train with you. You know, I did want to say um I had never met you.

unknown 1:22:41

Your dogs impressed me.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:42

So I'll just leave it at that. Well, I was very impressed, and I was very thankful that you allowed me to join you that day.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:48

Well, I appreciate it. I hope you come back sometime, and if we're ever up in your neck of the woods, we'll uh we'll stop and hang out. And we'll have to get lost to get up there. Hey, that's nice. I used to be in my neck of the woods, but I'm from PA.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:01

Oh, you're from Pennsylvania? Oh, yeah. Oh, a lot more, a lot more makes sense about you now. Yeah, you just got a little weird vibe to you. Gosh, it all all the dots are connected now. I got you from you from up north. I got you.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:13

I'm a mutt. I'm I'm I'm a little western, a little southern, a little northern. I'm a little bit of everything. Train me like a British doll.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:21

Yeah, that sounds like it. Well, uh, Connor, again, we appreciate it. I'm glad, I will say this. I'm glad we were all able to air this out and get on some level, level terms here. I'm glad we had, I think you and I had a misunderstanding in the chat. No, we did. We did. Okay, good, good. Woo! I because I was worried there for a second. I was like, surely Will understands what I'm doing. And then I got to thinking, I was like, oh, wait a minute. Maybe he thinks that I'm out here just on backpiling and we're just running.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:49

Well, no, then I'm sorry. That that that was my initial thought, and I was like, holy shit, this is my uh I didn't know what to think.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:55

Yeah, because when we were talking about it, y'all were like, well, this is what I do, this is what I do. I'm sitting here thinking, well, that's all the stuff I do. What's wrong with that?

SPEAKER_01 1:24:03

No, you're you're right, you're right.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:06

All right, guys. We just needed a middleman to help uh yeah, there you go.

SPEAKER_06 1:24:10

Anytime that's what we're gonna do. We'll just we'll just page Connor in on the on the next go around in case when we need a mediator. Well, guys, that wraps it up. We appreciate y'all. Y'all go have fun, train your dogs. Love your neighbor, love Jesus. Go ahead. Oh, there we go. All right, amen. See you guys.