2 Ways 2 Retrieve Podcast
Colton Thompson, owner of Grayquill Kennel, and Will Dunn, owner of Dunn Right Retrievers, unite on the retrieving homefront to discuss contrasting methods on getting your dog to a high standard.
2 Ways 2 Retrieve Podcast
Episode 9: We Back!
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Will and Colton jump back on the mic after an unintentional hiatus the last couple months. They have been wide open in the field, making those dogs into DAWGS. Join in as they catch up on life, training season, hunt tests, field trials, and everything in-between.
And we're back finally. Yeah. Episode uh episode nine. I bet y'all thought we were done. I told you we'd do it. You thought.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. We we're we're gonna we're gonna get it done. We just got a little busy. Look, my wife went back to work. We had a new baby at the end of November. Wife finally went back to work, I think the first part of March, which is about the time that I think the last one was done, somewhere around in there. Yep. Got dogs in. Will got dogs in. Will's been tending too. Full time rolling. Will Will's been spending some time with his girlfriend. So life just happened. Y'all y'all should be worried if um we were not pumping these out. Yeah, that I mean we would that that would mean we probably didn't have a lot of work to do. So we've just been busy. But hey, we're gonna do a little catch-up episode. Will and I both have uh had several things going on in the dog world. I've run some hunt tests, I believe Will has ran some trials. So we're gonna we're gonna do a little catch-up. As a reminder, I'm one of your hosts, Colton Thompson, with Grey Quill Kennel.
SPEAKER_01I didn't know what you were about to say.
SPEAKER_00And I'm well done with Done Right Retrievers. All right, well, let's get into it. Uh we might get on some training topics today. I got a few things banging around in my head. I got a couple, um that's probably one of the quirkiest bunch of dogs. I mean, it's not a bad thing. I mean, you're you're gonna get this in from time to time, but I've got a big group of just odd quirks here and there with just certain little small things with individual dogs. Like usually I got a group of dogs and they all kind of have the same problem, which is great because you it's just a just working on one problem. Yeah, you just working on one problem. Then when you got one that's got this problem, one that's got that one, one that's got that one, you're like, well crap, you know, I gotta we gotta dive in here and figure out some individual fixes, but all part of it. So Will let's back up. Let's if you can remember into March, it's kind of crazy to think it's already uh June here in a few days. What you been up to? You done run a run two or three trials. I know you've been over at uh cool water, hot water, Mississippi probably now as hot as it is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, I think right before the Lincolnton trial in Georgia was our last podcast. So ran that one um with no luck. Then we went to the cattle ranch and was lucky enough to get third place and then went down to Louisiana with no luck, and then just went up to Paducah, Kentucky, and ran up there and was lucky enough to get third place with a different dog and a couple jams. And so, you know, I'm just my biggest you know, hurdle has been knowing that I'm capable of completing a trial. Yeah, that's my biggest thing.
SPEAKER_00So that's like a big that seems like because I'm not very familiar with the trial world, but like when I talk to guys that have kind of started it, they're like, Yeah, I was able to make it through. Is it for it's four series? Four series. Yeah, I was able to you know finish the test, and I'm like, well, that's good. And then I then I've started to understand, like, you know, finishing the step is kind of like your first little achievement. You know, obviously you want to win, get some ribbons, but like finishing it is a is a big deal.
SPEAKER_01It's a huge accomplishment. There's uh quite a few people that you know they go, I'm not wanting to say no one or you know, people never do it, but it it is a big accomplishment, regardless. And I know there's people out there that will, you know, knock you for you know posting jam ribbons or this or that. But I mean, heck, at the end of the day, it's it it doesn't matter really in the big grand scheme of things.
SPEAKER_00But I mean, look, you got a few more jam ribbons than I have, so I think that's pretty cool. Well, you've never ran one, so you could go get one tomorrow. No, I signed up for one a long time ago thinking, I was like, oh, we can do this. And something happened, I didn't ended up going and like a a little while after, like I finally learned like what a field trial was. I mean, this was years ago, and I was like, ooh, that's probably good. I didn't go to that. I would have I would have really because I signed I think I signed up for like the all-age open class. I was about to go, I was about to go, yeah. Oh yeah, buddy, I was about to get I was about to get it handed to me.
SPEAKER_01So it they're they're tough, and when you go to these, you know, every single dog is good. It's really just the one that shows up to play that day, and there's some that are more consistent than others, and um, you know, you you're really competing against the best dogs in the country, whether it's the Derby qualifying, you know, amateur or open. These are dogs that are there to win.
SPEAKER_00Um well, I didn't mean to cut you off, but you brought up a good point. It's it's what dog decides to show up that day. Yeah. And that's a hard one to get people to I I and I get fixated on this, especially early on, was like, I know we've taught this. Why is this dog not doing well today? And it's like, dude, they've got their own brain, they're just like us. Sometimes they don't do well. Yeah, and that's a conversation that's hard to communicate to clients, too. And it's not their fault, just they're not in the dog world enough to understand that dogs don't always do well, even though maybe for two months straight we've been hammering training. When we get to a test or a trial, right? They just fall apart. And it just it could have just been the day. I've got a good story for that coming up that I'll I'll talk about when I get to my hunt test stuff.
SPEAKER_01Well, and then you know, that's this is just a difference that I've observed through the hunt tests and field trials. It's like you go to a field trial, I mean, 90, 95, 99 percent of those dogs are fantastic dogs. And you go to a hunt test, and it's not to knock a hunt in the hunt test, you know, uh game at all, but you see a wide variety of levels of dogs. Yeah. Um, and I've just noticed when you go to a field trial, you're like, golly, these these dogs are good. Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, you like you think, and that's the big thing is like before I ever really start running field trials, I was like, I know my dogs are good, but you go to one of these and you're like, they ain't that good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, it's you know, similar to the SRS, which seems seems to be gathering some popularity. I mean, you get you go to play and win. And um uh, you know, Chris Travis, he he he does the SRS stuff a lot, and he's kind of educated me on that. He's like, Yeah, we got a fourth or sixth place, and you you know, you get points as you I I believe anybody can correct me on this. You can send me a message and tell me I'm wrong. But I think you get points, you know, kind of all the way down to a certain spot. And if you get so many points with a with a win or second place, you qualify and get the title. It it's a neat little concept that uh SRS is doing. So it's uh you know, even if you so back to what you're talking about, the jam ribbons, even if you go and say you don't win, I mean you're still getting points and you're still getting ribbons, and those are still big accomplishments. I think. I I mean I think it's cool.
SPEAKER_01I mean yeah, your first through fourth will get points. Yeah. You know, uh for derby dogs, really the only titles there are is getting on the uh national derby list. Yeah, the derby list, and then if you are a finalist at the Derby National, if your dog is doesn't age out before those are really the only two titles you can get, and it's kind of like the SRS, you um have to accumulate points and then the in the Derby you don't need a win to get on the derby list or anything like that. You just need ten points. Um but uh same thing, you know, SRS. You need you need points to qualify, and you know, to qualify for the Derby National, you need three points, I believe.
SPEAKER_00And um so now this is for me, because I don't know what are your colors and what how are they in correlation to where you place because you got your your jam, which what what is that judges uh something of merit something judges award of merit award of merit, something like that.
SPEAKER_01We were good enough to complete all four series, but not good enough to play in first, second, third, or fourth.
SPEAKER_00Okay, and then what color your your blue ribbon's number one, yeah, and then your red is number two, okay, yellow is number three, white is number four.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so it's five points, three points, two points, one point.
SPEAKER_00And your jam is green. Yep, okay. Zero points. So if you get a green ribbon at the grand, that's a big deal. Big time, big time, big time. Yeah, because at the hunt test, they're all the same color. So well, that's cool. Well, good. Sounds like you've had some good luck there. That's uh I love to see it. I love to see other people's successes.
SPEAKER_01What about you?
SPEAKER_00I know you ran a few uh hunt tests. We ran, I uh I believe we ran to um who you got over there? A bunch of three little rats. Buster.
SPEAKER_01Oh, you got them all three in here? Coda, bow, and ace. Oh boy. Ace.
SPEAKER_00Ace is a place for the helpful hardware folks. Yep. I got two ACEs in this one right now. I got an ace. That must be a popular name. I got one too. Don't love it, don't hate it, but yeah. Well, uh so we've had I mean we've uh for me, I I always want to do better. Well we've had good success at at the hunt test, and we've run or we have ran I had a big crew of started dogs the first test, a couple season dogs, or one or two, let's see, one season dog, finished dog, and then I had a couple dogs step up, ran, finished dog at the second the because I've only ran two tests, I'm about to run one here coming up uh next weekend. Ran, I think it was one finished dog, a couple season dogs, and or one one season only, I can't remember, and some started dogs as well. We did we did fairly I mean I think pass rate was 95%. I don't know. I'd have to look at the the fractions there. We were 16 for 16 and 12 for 16, so that's that's pretty good. Not bad. I I was I was working on a pretty good record that this year this was my see third year of of running tests and because I had a little break there several years ago of training, so I lost track. But when I started back, I have this would have been if I'd have passed everybody the past two tests, I would be on year three of a hundred percent pass rate. That's what I was going. It's huge. So up until up until appreciate it, thank you. I was working on that. That busted my record the last test. Um, so I was that I think I was more um aggravated by that because I had a good streak going. I don't know if that's the I don't know if that's a good thing to say, but to that, we had the first test was pretty good, everybody did pretty good, and I and I always start, I know that this is a big divide with people because some people are like, no, we're not running until the dog's ready to run and finished. For me, I love to go to a started test because, and here this is the only reason why I don't really necessarily care as much about the marking as I do getting the dog exposed to a hunt test environment. Be and the reason for that is, and I saw this, is in training, you see a certain personality and a certain side to a dog. When you go to a hunt test, you bring out a totally different side to the dog. And I had a couple dogs that were just overly excited, and I didn't see that in training. So now going to the line, I know what to expect, and it kind of changes my game plan when we start running the test. I know, you know, if I need to be quicker with my whistles or if I need to be more firm with with my sit commands or watching them on the bucket or honor work or anything like that or walking to the line. I I get to get a little sliver of that if I do started first. So I it works well for me. It's not more, it's more about exposure and for me to see what kind of dog I got going to the line. Yeah. So we did fairly well. We well, like I said, 16 for 16 and then 12 for 16. So not not terrible.
SPEAKER_01I mean, that's that's above 50%, regardless.
SPEAKER_00Above 50? Yeah, yeah. I mean, if we're shooting, if we're shooting for 50%, yeah, we're doing great. Hey, just put it in perspective.
SPEAKER_01It could be worse.
SPEAKER_00It could, yeah, it definitely could have been worse. The funny part was though, it we earlier, this is a story I was going to tell, is you you've got dogs that, man, they'll look great, and you you get to a trial or a test, and they just, you know, mess it up, or you know, they just kind of do strange things. And I had one dog, uh, and and the owner won't mind because it's super good, super good client of mine, Kizzy, and she's a Percy bred female out of a nice masternational female, and I can't remember who that female is out of. It's it's nice too. But she it's the first time I've ever done it. It's gonna happen to you. She failed two started tests, back-to-back days, and acted the same. Like every everything was identical. Even the judges the next day when she failed the land series, she said, Well, that's just those trains because she ran both tests the same way. Yeah. And what happened was she would she's a phenomenal marking dog. She'd picked up 800,000 birds over duck season, and she had been back in training, everything was looking good, handling a little bit, you know, just doing, you know, doing all the things that she, you know, checking all the boxes she needed to check for me to say, yeah, we can go run the starter test. It was if there was a dog on my truck that I wasn't worried about, she was the one. Right. And we pull, sure enough, we pull up to the test. We go bird goes out, she watches it, takes a beeline to it, steps on it, and then just keeps on going. Hunts way deep. I try to bring her back in and handle her, she won't take a cast. I'm like, what are you doing? Like you're you're you're running blinds and training, like you're good. Yeah. And then, sure enough, we go turn around. I go ahead and finish the test. We've already paid her entry fees. We're gonna get her reps in and go to run the next mark, steps on it. Go to water, steps on all the marks. Sunday we come out, same thing. Throw the first mark, steps right on it, keeps on going. Right. Hunt, hunt, come back, try to handle her, wouldn't pick it up. I finally make her pick it up. Come back, run the second mark, steps on it, comes back, go to water, everything's good. Just a little excited. I I don't know what it was. I I any and you know, and that's always and that's a good recommendation I have to guys that are thinking about starting to run tests, is go go run a started test. Don't think it's it's it's beneath you to do that. You're gonna get exposure for your dog, you're gonna find out what kind of dog you got, and you know what to kind of train for and how to tailor your training to the next test. I mean, you know what to expect.
SPEAKER_01I I like started to be honest, or junior. Um because when you you just have more control or you you directly have more control of your dog since you can hold them. Yeah. And so if if they are a little wound up, you can just, you know, I'm not saying jerk them by any means, but but you're able to keep your hands up. Yeah, pull upward motion and um just a little bit of enough, hey, hey, joker, sit your butt on the ground and yeah, you can give them a little bit of leak because you're able to have a flat buckle collar when you go to the line and junior and and start it.
SPEAKER_00So you're able to have your hands on the dog and and and mitigate you know the issues um that you might have if you didn't have your hands on. Kizzy, now we I was training the other day. I had a friend out training and uh Greg Grodner. Well, you're well mutual friend. Um, and Greg was looked at me, she's he because I said, you know, she's failed at starter test. He looked at me, he's like, How did this dog fail a starter test? I was like, I have no idea. I was like, that's a great, that's a great question. I said, and and the client was super good about it. He was very understanding. He's like, Well, I hate that. He's like, but we'll get them next time. And and that's the attitude you need to have when you're running these dogs. I mean, because you're gonna go into instances where and this happened to a young Finnish dog of mine that same weekend. We were we were running a test at a uh undisclosed location. I don't wanna I don't want to rag on anybody, but uh, you know, I thought the test and uh there was a mutual feeling there that the tests were above the pay grade of what a Finnish dog should be running. They were grand level setups, and I I ran the grant a few times and I'd seen it and I agreed. And you know, you gotta he just got a raw deal on it, and it is what it is. You go, you get your experience, and you run the test, and sometimes you just get a raw deal. You keep going back, it's okay.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so any of these dog games are not uh objective. Well, they're not meant for anyone to get their feelings hurt. Yeah, every dog's gonna have their day, every person's gonna have their day, whether it's field trials or a hunt test. It's not a as much as we try to keep our ego out of it, um, it's not something to get your feelings hurt over. Yeah. I always kind of joke.
SPEAKER_00I've got a another buddy that uh we've been friends for a long time, and uh I always tell him we we joke about it now. But I tell folks you get one mulligan at a hunt test to blow up and get mad. I was like, it you know, everybody gets one. After that, it you know, don't get mad, don't get frustrated with the judges, just say, dang, that sucks. Not too happy about this, and just go on about your day. Uh that might be a good conversation for another day.
SPEAKER_01When we were up in Kentucky in the first trial we ran, it was a double DQ. First derby, um Champ was the first dog I ran. He um went out towards the flyer. The and I'm not gonna put all the blame on the gunner. He should have more discipline to hold his line, but the gunner was walking back to his chair and bent down to put his gun down, and champ just went on to the backside, hunting the backside, and then he never even picked up the flyer, he went to the long bird that was 450 yards away. I was like, good grief. Yeah. And then I ran King out. King, I feel usually most confident about. Um he pit had a good flyer and then came back, locked in on the 450-yard bird. And um he, I mean, he was looking at when I sent him, he takes off and just immediately goes back towards the fire. I'm like, what the hell's going on? And my mom was up there with me, and I'm like, mom, we may be going back to the hotel here because I only had Ralph left. And um Ralph is a pretty consistent dog on land, and he went out there and had a good first series, but it was a rainy day. I was almost hoping he would he'd mess it up so I could get back to the hotel. But um, when you know you lose most of your dogs in the first series, you're like, golly, this is embarrassing, but it happens to everybody.
SPEAKER_00It does. I mean, I've done it down that road, and I tell people not to get upset at tests, and it's not coming from a place of somebody who never has. I've done it before, I've done it down that road, doesn't do any good, makes you feel good in the moment, and then after that, you're like, man, I shouldn't have blew up and got aggravated about um, got aggravated about the test. I should have just said, okay. Is what it is. Let's move on. Ace, are you digging to China over there? Sounds like he's gonna make a dent in it in a minute.
SPEAKER_02Hey.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, pretty good spring so far. We're rolling into summer. What are your hot? Yeah, man, it just and it we had spring, and then all of a sudden it went from like just a nice spring to just humid and hot. It it felt like it just happened in a day. I know. I wasn't ready for it. You got any good tips for summertime training? I know I've got one or two probably.
SPEAKER_01Uh keep it short. Don't I'm this is another uh a big, big, big one is that you know, if a dog is struggling, it's not the not the time to not a good time to get reps in. No really. Um it's not, but you know, also be careful with you know the pressure stuff too, because when a dog starts getting hot just from running, and then the added pressure on top of it, it can you can go south really quick. So um it's e it's better to get good you know quality work in um and then just call it a day. Yeah, if it's even if it's just one setup.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I like to I'm I'm yeah, especially this time of year, it's one setup, and I like to work on more like short distance-wise with some concepts, you know, maybe some hip pockets, you know, some convergence stuff, or and if I do throw a long bird, it's usually either one long single kind of out of the picture or one long blind, and then and that's it.
SPEAKER_01So I've been doing a lot of uh kind of what I talked about to you over the phone yesterday is um a pretty difficult, you know, double Y drill. Yeah, where I'm only throwing the flats and the angle back, so it's not a full Y, but um doing two mom and pop doubles really trying to get the dog to focus in on the fall area and stay in the fall area. Um and if they don't have success with it, you know, you call them back, no pressure at all.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um send them again. But if they don't get it after the third try, you put them up and then bring them back out at the end and see if they learned anything. I did do that with King today.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's yeah, summertime's not really a good time to get in your um and start anything that's gonna be very intensive with pressure or that's gonna require a ton of reps like force fetch, backpile. I mean, you still get it done if you got air conditioner, stuff like that, but just be very tactful with what you're doing. Yes, just you know, I'm doing that. I'm I'm I'm decreasing my distances significantly and working more on you know concepts of like I said, hip pockets, converging marks, inline, stuff like that. Keeping it really short so we don't have a ton of you know a ton of running to do, but we're still getting some good good reps in. Yeah. So keep that keep that in mind so you don't overheat your dog. Because I've been close one time, it scared the poop out of me. Yeah, it was very I was very, very, very worried. Yeah. So it does happen, unfortunately. All right. We've caught up. We're back on schedule. Do you got anything that maybe a word of encouragement? Maybe a subject to dissect? Or you got a particular dog that's got an issue? I think I've got something that's uh maybe a little abstract, but it it's a good conversation piece and we can we can spread it out too.
SPEAKER_01I'm trying to think. I mean uh I guess from a new trainer's perspective, um because I've had to do this recently, is honesty with your client is the utmost important. And if you're two, three months in and you don't foresee it working out, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So we're speaking to guys that are getting ready to maybe take on some clients and start out fresh is right. Okay, gotcha.
SPEAKER_01Don't be afraid to make that phone call. And at the end of the day, it's always the client's choice. So the way I try to um word it is you know, this is where we're at. The way I foresee this going is and I always refer back to hey, dog training is an investment because you're spending a boatload of money over the course of several months to hopefully get a dog to the level that they want. And um if you don't foresee that happening on your normal time frame of a dog that is, you know, picking up what you're putting down, then it's our responsibility to be truthful and up front with the client and don't wait until you're six, seven, eight months down the road and then call the client right before hunting season and be like, yeah, you know, this dog really isn't doing all that great. Um, because I promise you it will come back and benefit you so much more in the future if you are up front with them, and it will come back and bite you in the ass even harder if you're not. Yeah. And I've seen both sides of it, and it's just always better to be up front and leave, you know, let the client decide because I I told this most recent client that look, this dog is gonna come out of it at some point.
SPEAKER_00It's just a matter of when.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yeah, it could be next month, it could be next week, or it could be six months from now.
SPEAKER_00And do you want to roll the dice? And that's such that is such a hard decision to make. I didn't mean to cut you off, but that's the hard thing that I think as trainers that we deal with because we've had a good sample of dogs that have been in similar situations, and some of them come out immediately. And some I've had dogs where I didn't think they were gonna make it, and then you put me a year and a half down the road, and this dog is uh, I mean, it's a hitter. Yeah. And it's so hard to make that call on those dogs because you just I mean, you can look at a dog and know for sure sometimes, but you know, there's you know, the tweeners in there where you don't really know, man, it's such a hard decision to make because you don't want to give up on the dog, right? And you want to give the dog an opportunity, but at the same time, you don't want to milk um, you know, milk your monthly payments there from your from your owner.
SPEAKER_01And a big thing that I look at is on the age of the dog um and where they're at in training. So if it's all pre-pressure stuff like that, and they're just doing it for fun, and you know, hey, this is I really enjoy this, and then you start to add the pressure on top of it, and then they just don't like it. It's something that and this is the big thing is I'm here to train working dogs, I'm not here to train your average dog.
SPEAKER_00And I want top of the line, I have high standards, and you know if the dogs, you know, I'm have you gotten pretty good like after force fetch, kind of knowing, all right, this dog's either gonna go down this path or that path. Yeah, I've gotten to the point where I can kind of tell, like, oh, I know what kind of dog we're gonna have now.
SPEAKER_01Right, because out of force fetch, and you go back and start throwing marks, those dogs should be fired up, ready to go.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And then when you start the pile work and you know the yard work, that's when their attitude will dip a little bit and then they'll come back up. And so that dip in yard work does not scare me at all. Um, but it's like right out of force fetch where hey, we're going back to the field. Hey, this is this is fun now. It's just yeah, um yeah, that's what I look at.
SPEAKER_00Like, I expect dogs in yard work to have a dip in momentum, but on that same day, I want to be able to flip around and throw some marks and they kick right back up. If they kick right back up, we're we're good. Right. Like we're gonna skate through. Now, if I flip you around and you're just halfway interested in marks, yeah, uh, then we might have I think we're gonna have some issues on the back end of getting you pushed down the road.
SPEAKER_01Well, that and that's the thing, like with the this dog that came in, he was already a year old before he came in, and there was no formal work prior to he, you know, what I say live the good life, you know, getting on the couch, sleeping in bed, and you know, that's it. Quite literally living the good life. Yeah, and then you start to apply standards to this dog's life, and hey, there's rules that you have to abide by.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, especially in the retrieving world or aspect of things, you you can't just let them go out there willy-nilly and let them get away with it because it will just compound. Yeah. And it's not to say you're hammering down on the dog either, but there there has to be a fine line of what's the standard is. And if it's not upheld, then you're just you're doing the dog a disservice. But at that dog's age, you know, there's a lot more rewiring that has to happen. And if you get a dog that comes in at six, seven months old that is still not fully you know mentally developed or anything like that, you can you can work through some of that a little bit easier. Right. But a dog that's already over a year old and has you know pretty has strong roots in what its life was before, yeah, it's a hard a whole lot harder to uproot all those roots and you know replant them into a working, yeah, working aspect.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I and this is not to to talk down to to folks because you just don't know what you don't know when it comes to dogs. Yeah. So uh what I'm going to say is I have these conversations tenfold. I mean, just all the time until I'm blue in the face. The first year and a half to two years of the dog's life needs to be extremely structured. And here's why. And I've seen it time and time again. And when I say structured, I don't mean 23 and a half hours in a run, 30 minutes working. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about routine. We're we have our own crate that we stay in at night or our own run that we stay in. It's it's on a pretty consistent routine for the first two years of the dog's life because in that time, when they're young, they're very malleable and they're pretty, pretty sharp on figuring out how to get out of work. And if you allow that dog when they're young to get, you know, kind of quote unquote a little taste of freedom, they know that the good life on the couch or out laying in the backyard or whatever is a little bit more fun to them than doing the work. And when you set up a dog where they've had a ton of structure, where their fun is the work and they've got a little bit of decompression time spent in there to be a dog, yeah. Your dog, and I've said, dude, I see it time and time again. When I get dogs in, I can tell the ones that have been on a routine and structured, and I can tell the ones that have been just left out. Yeah, your dog, I'm convinced if you keep your dog structured, your success rate when you go into a training program is I won't say it's a hundred percent, but I'm gonna say it's into the 80s and 90 percent.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think you ordered that perfectly. Um, and I think that's one reason why I I feel so fortunate and blessed is I I a lot of my dogs that come in have come in at you know pre-six months of age, and most of the time around, I mean, a lot of times eight weeks old or ten weeks old or twelve weeks old.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And it is easy to get them in a routine.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, the routine and the structure is the big thing. And it's really not as much what you do with them. It's I if you just didn't even do hardly any retrieving or any obedience the first six months of the dog's life, eight months of the dog's life, when you sent the dog into training, even if you kept them on a structured routine and the dogs knew what to expect and they knew the rules, dude, the dog's going to do well. I mean, the dog is going to do as well as it's genetically capable to do. And you you've got to give your dog that opportunity to be successful. And, you know, but after that two-year mark, when we get all the rules laid out and they understand the rules and what we expect from them, then the dogs can go and just kind of, you know, they can be you can be a lot looser. You know, you can give them a good while, you know, during the spring and summer where they're just kind of putting around being a dog, and then you can put them back in training, tune them up, and they're back right where they were because the rules have already been established and they've been ingrained at a young age. Right. So again, just want to reiterate that is a good way to keep your dog success successful, but I'm also not being mean, I'm not keeping the dog, you know, caged up all the time. I hate the word caged because it's not what we use. Runs and kennels and crates. It it's not keeping them up like that. It's just the structure, the routine, and and the consistency is what's gonna extremely benefit your dog more than anything. And I hope people hear me because I've said that a ton. Yep. It's a ton. And uh which kind of sort of a little bit of a jump. I wanted to talk about timelines because in in in in a program and as I've the the year as each year goes by, I get more and more sharper on this and understand it more. A program is something that is not done until it's done. And what I mean by that is if we are grabbing our dog out of a program and stuff's not all stitched together, they might look decent, but it's not going to take very long for you to see those holes and those dogs to come unraveled. 100%. And this is for guys also that are training their own dog. When you get in a program, you got to see it through, my boy. I mean, that's that's just the way I would say it is because if you're not when you look at a program and you got how you're gonna flow through it, dude, you got to do it and you gotta get through it because if we pull a dog out when they're let's say for me, they're going from T drill to three-pole, and then we pluck them out and we start trying to run blind, stuff's gonna just fall apart. We got to get through stuff, we got to finish this stuff out and stitch it all together because you know, Connor, he was on the last podcast, uh it seems like two years ago. Um he said he made a good uh a good comparison here. He's like, You wouldn't go get your truck from the shop if you're getting your engine rebuilt halfway through, would you? Right. I mean, it might run, but it's not gonna run right. Right. It's the same thing with dogs. I mean, and it and I also understand from somebody who needs money to live, it's it's it's huge, it's a huge investment. But when you get your dog, you really, really, really need to sit down with yourself and be be real. It's like, what do I really want? What's it gonna cost? And is it worth it to me to have have that? Yeah. And when you decide to do it, just get all in and do it. Because you're gonna if you buy into a process and you've got a decently bred dog and you see it through, you're gonna get what you want, I think, for the most part.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I do. I agree. Chris and I had that talk yesterday about genetics, it's like, and I've even seen it too, where it genetics have saved, I you know, you're you're gonna get your one out of a hundred or one out of a thousand that are not bred well, that they're just phenoms. But overall, you can, you know, if I got a dog that's underdeveloped at a young age and they come in and they're bred well, it they may not have re they may not reach their full potential as if they were backgrounded the right way. But those genetics right there, all that stuff that's built in in the background, will start coming through and you'll start seeing it. Yeah. And Kizzy, Kizzy's a good point. Like, you know, when she came in, she was I mean, she was doing good, but I, you know, she would she just looked like she had been hunting for you know a season and and hadn't had you know structured training like like we do. But it did it took a week of covering a couple things and she was right back to where she was. And I and I firmly believe that that's genetics and what and what's bred into them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I agree with that. I do.
SPEAKER_00So if you're thinking about getting a puppy, we can talk about that. Buy and spend as much as you can possibly afford to get a good, well-bred dog. Do not, do not go find one that's a good deal because it's cheap. They rarely work out, they rarely work out. I've got one in the kennel right now. I don't think Mojo's bred too well. Will won't mind me saying this. He's not bred too well, but he's turned out pretty decent. I'll give you that. Delta bred terribly, bred like a raccoon, once in a lifetime dog. She's super nice. I'm not gonna say that you don't have outliers out there, but go buy as much as you can afford that makes sense for your budget and get you a nice bred dog.
SPEAKER_01I think you can find a reliable breeding that is fifteen hundred dollars. You don't have you don't have you don't have to go spend three thousand dollars on a puppy.
SPEAKER_00Um, I had some I had a friend of mine send me a breeding today. He's like, What do you think about this? It's like, well, it's not bad, not great. I mean, we don't, you know, we got some title dogs, some FC dogs in there towards the back. I was like, but I'm I'm looking at first and second generation, I don't see a lot up there. And he's like, Well, the guy wants fifteen hundred dollars. I was like, well, dude, like I can find you a dog for a thousand bucks right now that's got two master hunter parents, yeah, with uh, you know, a ton of titles behind them. I was like, right, you know.
SPEAKER_01And what I tell people uh too is the biggest thing because I I've had dogs in with parents with no health testing, no no proven anything. Um and uh at my my bare minimum of buying a puppy is both parents have to have their OFAs, their hips, their elbows, their eyes, their heart, and genetics. Um the genetic test. Is the hard thing a new one? Because I I haven't I have OFA makes you do it, I'm pretty sure.
SPEAKER_00Is is it is that a new thing? Because I haven't had any help tests done on some dogs in a while.
SPEAKER_01I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I I did it a couple years ago with Kobe and is that a golden thing though? No, is it can they do it on labor? I guess they can do it on labor too.
SPEAKER_01But I don't think that's it. Yeah, they can do it on any of them, but you just gotcha. Um make sure both parents have all that stuff done. Now, you know, dogs can be clear through parentage with you know genetic genetic mutations, but um and that's fine. But yeah, at bare minimum, make sure because at the end of the day, if your breeder is doing that stuff, they're doing their due diligence. Yeah. If if you have a buddy that has a hunting dog and he's it could be a great hunting dog, and he breeds it to another quote unquote great hunting dog.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Um I I see this a ton. I know where you're going with this.
SPEAKER_01And hell, sometimes they try to sell them for two thousand dollars, and it's like, yeah, I mean that dog, I'm I'm sorry, but the dog's not worth that. I mean, you like you said, you can go find two HRCH master hunters bred to each other for a thousand to fifty. I don't see them for a thousand very often, but I'm sure they're out there. But yeah, usually around the 1500 to 1750 um mark, and those are gonna be reliable dogs. Yeah, I've I've trained a lot of those dogs, and a lot of them have turned out to be great, great dogs.
SPEAKER_00So I'm I you know I do breeding as well. I mean, unfortunately, I've missed four litters in a row. Don't know what's going on there. I've had a really bad string of bad luck, but I, you know, I do some breeding, and uh so to go back through the stuff that you said, a good thing to look at if you are thinking about buying. I mean, summertime seems to be a popular time to buy a puppy uh and Christmas, uh, which makes sense. But you want to get your you want to make sure both these are for both parents. Yes, both is hips, elbows, those are the two big ones, heart, which is I I was not as familiar with that one. Maybe I need to make sure I check on that because I don't even know I I know we test genetically for some heart conditions, but eyes, hips, elbows, eyes is a big one, and then your DNA panel. There's a pretty generic DNA panel. I mean, you can check as many. I mean, they have, I think MARK's got like a hundred things. Like, you don't need to do anything like that. You know, there's like five or six popular ones. It's CNM, EIC, uh, HMPK, and SD2 is one for British dogs that we test a good bit. So there's like five or six there that you want to check genetics, and it doesn't necessarily have to be a it could be cleared through parentage, which means the parents are genetically, or I'm sorry, means I believe, I'll make sure I get this right, that the parents of your sire and dame have all been genetically tested, and the sire and dam themselves are clear by parentage, and they have not had an actual DNA test pool, but they are they are clear. Yes. I know that's a little bit confusing. If anybody wants to chat about that in corner. Yeah. Um, so those are things to look at from a health perspective. Now, none of that stuff guarantees anything, and this is where I was gonna go with this. I encourage folks to go with individuals who are breeders and have you know, because we we give quote unquote health guarantees. We can't guarantee anything, but those health guarantees are really like hey, if you got something that happens with your pup, if he's unhealthy, if he gets home and he has something that's caused here at the kennel, or it's something genetic that we didn't see, and it comes up, you know, a certain time later, or the hips and elbows are bad, you're gonna be able to pick up that phone and call the breeder and tell them what happened. They're gonna take notes of that combination, probably don't need to do that again. And then they're gonna help you get another puppy. Yeah. Probably most of the time, our health guarantees, if we have any kind of genetic things that slip through or hit or hips and elbows and eyes, we I just give folks another puppy at a at a at a later date. And when you go with, and this is not to say that you know, certain individuals won't do that, but like if you're going and you got a buddy that's just had a litter, that stuff falls by the wayside and you don't have anybody to call if if something happens, you know, you're just kind of stuck like a sitting duck on the water. So that would be there's my sales pitch for going with somebody who has done some breeding and and and does it, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so and and that that's all just bare minimum stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And and if you're looking for a puppy, go to Hunt Lab Pedigree.
SPEAKER_00That's yeah, there's a ton on there, and I I don't I they may even require, I think now on that website, I could be totally wrong about this. They may require for you to even put the litters on there that the health testing is provided.
SPEAKER_01I don't know if they do or not, but uh if I if anyone's looking for a puppy, I tell them to go there. Yeah, because you're all the breedings on there, uh not all, but maybe you know, 90 the vast majority of those breedings are everyone's done their due diligence. But if you want to take it a step further and really, you know, kind of try to figure out what kind of dog you're getting, call the breeder. Yeah, ask them if this dog's been bred before, and if it has, what have those puppies turned out to be? Like I've got a dog right now named Lou that Rhett Collins bred. It's the third repeat breeding of these two parents, and yeah, the first two breedings. I'm not gonna say all, but a lot of those dogs are doing really, really well.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and that's a good thing to look for, is if it if somebody says it's a repeat breeding, usually that's for a reason. Yeah, and that means you know, most of the pups out of that last letter did phenomenal.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and then there's some sires and some dams out there that are very throw very consistent dogs. And one that comes to my mind is a dog named Cletus. It's uh I think it's it's HRCH got my got my mojo working or something like that. But I've trained I can't tell you how many Cletus dogs and from different dams that they are all eerily similar. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And they're I'll say that about I because I have a couple buddies that have some Percy pups. You've got one out of Percy's brother Marcus, which is Bing Bong. Right. Uh what's his name's not Bing Bong. King Bing Bong. Yeah, King Bing. Sorry there. Nickname. Uh Percy pups for me, like all the ones that I've ever seen are I mean, which obviously just makes sense just with what goes into that breeding, but they're all they've got different personalities and different levels of drive, but they all are really freaking good marking dogs. Yeah, really, really good, like naturally out of the womb marking dogs. Yeah. And Kizzy was that way too. She was she was out of Percy. So yeah, there's a few recommendations. And if you're looking for British dogs, holler at your boy. Those are kind of harder to find, and everybody's breeding British dogs now. So if you're wanting a nice performance, that that would, I should, I should coin that phrase. Performance British labs. No, I would never but holler at me. I can I can definitely help you uh with that. I've got a nice hey, I've got a nice little puppy that I bought. Um be here about a month. It is you you'll like this. Got a little got a little American stuff in here. Oh American titles. I've got the Sire is a field trial champion imported. Okay. And he also has his master hunter.
SPEAKER_01Nice. Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00And of course, he's got some good stuff behind him, some old stuff, which I love the old school stuff. You know, it's kind of like one of those things, oh, you can't get it anymore. And but no, the dogs are nice. But on the on the damn side, she's out of a field trial champion. Champion. Her mom's an HRCH. The dam is an HRCH. And then on the back side of the mom, we've got another HRCH and a Grand Hunt Retriever champion. British dog. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Pretty cool little figure. I like what you're doing there.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I gotta give uh putting the odds in your favorite. Yeah, I'm I'm trying, dude. I'm I'm I'm hitting it from both ends on this one.
SPEAKER_01What was that last dog you imported? He was already he was not a puppy that had a big old forehead that he just ran goofy.
SPEAKER_00Oh, it was uh God, what was his uh man, I forgot his name. Well, uh no, no, no, no, no. What's his name? What's his name? What's his name? Black dog. I wanted to call him Chuck for some reason, but that wasn't his name, that was his nickname. I've got this dog here. Hold on, let me look, let's look this up on Instagram. But cracked me. Dude, he was. He was goofy. I mean, he was a sweet dog. He just he wasn't gonna fit what I was what I was doing. But um I was gonna in that breeding, I do want to give a shout-out to Corey Doutican at Double T. I don't think he'll mind that. He's he's got me set up with a really nice breeding of Corey. And I'll give Corey a shout-out. Here, I I get a lot of dogs in from Corey, even though he's in Kansas, and I buy some puppies from him if I need to help a client find a dog that's gonna do a training contract with me, because I just I don't breed a ton of litters. I'm I'm just I don't have that, the facilities to do that. And so Corey and I work together a little bit, and he puts together some really, really, really nice, I wouldn't say American-style British dogs, but they don't, they're not your usual British dogs. They are the fun, the fun ones. The ones that I like, the ones that can that can go run and be a good gun dog, and can come and and figure out hunt test. Yeah. And and they do, they seem to do really well. Bruce. That's that was it. That was it. That was a good name for him, too. Good looking dog, good size, nice little breeding. Yeah, he just uh just a goof, just a goofy. I think he did too.
SPEAKER_01And uh I I want to plug one thing real quick. Um, if anyone is looking for a finished dog or a season level dog, I've got two for sale. Oh, you got some for sale? Yep. Um one is Ralph, he just got third in the derby. Ralph. He's the finished dog.
SPEAKER_00I thought, man, you sleep in the bed with him every night.
SPEAKER_01No, I used to, but then he started a uh that good life that I was talking about. I can see it wearing off.
SPEAKER_00So he's been in the kennel for a while. But oh you had you had to separate from him before you made that decision. I get it.
SPEAKER_01I see what you're no, but uh I both of these dogs are dogs that I bought with the intention to train and so um both are the same exact breeding, it's out of Cletus and then uh HRCH and I think Master Hunter uh dog same croft out of Luke Davis's breeding. But um Ralph fully finished, he hunted last season. He's I mean, uh Ralph's a nice dog. I've seen him. I really can't, and I'm not saying this to beat my own chest, but he's a very nice dog. He anyone can run him, he's a great inside dog, clean in the kennel, um, doesn't bark.
SPEAKER_00So you're caught you're commandeering the podcast to sell some sell some.
SPEAKER_01I like it. Why not? That's I mean if you got any for sale, then by all means.
SPEAKER_00I don't, man. I've I'm cleaned out at this point, which is which is honestly kind of nice. That means every dog in the kennel's making money. That's right.
SPEAKER_01But um Ralph, he's gonna be uh two two numbers in front of the comma. Red is the other one. He's um he's not running blinds yet, but he's sitting on the whistle taking cast. You can hack Red. Oh, I remember Red. I remember Red is an old young pup. Yep, and yeah, and they uh you know if anyone is interested, just reach out and I'll I'll give you the rundown. Hook him up, come watch him run. If you want a uh jam up finished dog that's gonna make you look good, that's I mean he's turnkey, he's he's on it, he's done.
SPEAKER_00Can I borrow him for a weekend? Feel free.
SPEAKER_01Go run him as test dog or something. But yeah, um he he's he's your dog, and if you want a another, he's gonna red, um very, very reliable, great marking dog, good in the water, um, also great inside, um, just overall really good dog, but he's he's gonna be a the more affordable dog.
SPEAKER_00Now we'll we'll touch this is this will be a little short subject and we can wrap it up because we've been going for a while now. Uh if you're looking, if you don't want to deal with a puppy stage, what are some things that you look for if you're going to buy a started or seasoned dog or finished dog? I've got a, you know, it is there a situation where that's better than buying the puppy and starting from the beginning? Yeah. If your lifestyle doesn't let you spend the time with a puppy and keep the structure, or maybe you've got wife and kids and you worry about them kind of souring the young dog out, making them a little, you know, like today's school before training, buying a started or seasoned dog is a good way, is a good way to do it. What are some things that you would recommend, guys? Like if you had a client's calling you, what would you want your client to come and do? I mean, uh it's nice if they just say, hey, I want to buy him and write you a check and then come pick him up. But if you're if you were a buyer and you were going to buy a started season finished dog, what what are some things that you would look at?
SPEAKER_01If I was buying a already trained dog and I'll leave the different categories out of it, I would certainly go watch the dog work.
SPEAKER_00Um over over a couple days. Like you don't have to watch him for two months, but go on a Monday and go on a Thursday. Right.
SPEAKER_01Um and look at the dog on land, look at the dog on water. Water is huge. I mean, a lot of dogs look good on land, but don't look good in the water. Yeah. So those are two big things.
SPEAKER_00Um so marking ability on land. And if I'm buying them, I don't worry as much about the especially if they're finished, I would, but if it's like starter season, I don't worry as much about the marking ability on water. I look at the water attitude. That's a big one. The water attitude is what because I can fix the other stuff.
SPEAKER_01Correct. Um and then uh if you are looking at the started dogs, they a started dog has to be force-fetched if they're not forest fetched.
SPEAKER_00The foundation stuff is the big stuff on the started dogs, yes.
SPEAKER_01They don't have to be fully steady, but um they need to be force-fetched and collar conditioned. Um and anyone in that ballpark, you know, typically started dogs for me are anywhere from the four to six thousand dollar range, depending on pedigree and just how far started they are.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um season level dogs that you can hack around um are anywhere from the six to nine thousand dollar range, once again, depending on um pedigree and um age is a huge thing too. You know, uh a three-year-old season dog is not worth as much as a year-old seasoned dog. Um and then uh for finished dogs, they're they're for me, they're gonna range anywhere from 10 to 20,000.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, sky's kind of the limit on that, especially their age, like yes.
SPEAKER_01Um, but the the advantages of doing it that way is you can go see the dog and you know what you're getting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know what you're getting. Like it's not a question of is this dog gonna make it from eight weeks old? It's like, all right, well, this is this is what I got. I know exactly what I'm getting.
SPEAKER_01Yep, exactly. And um also uh what was I gonna know? If you do buy a puppy and send it off for training, there's still a lot of up in the air because it could not work out. And yeah, um, usually buying a finished dog is cheaper, like the way I Ralph Price right now, if he were to be a client dog from a puppy up until now, yeah, they would have spent well over you know twenty-two, twenty-three thousand dollars already.
SPEAKER_00Um you can usually get a little bit better deal on those dogs, but you do have to kind of stroke a fat one right there. Yeah, yeah, right up front. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and one thing that I do do with all dogs that I sell for now, starter dogs is different, but um uh you know, a dog like Ralph, with that kind of money, I will put a contingency in there. You get a month with the dog, you obviously pay everything up front, but I'm not doing a single thing with those dollars until the end of that month. You're gonna give them a little trial run. Yes, and if if anything comes out where you're like, eh, this dog just doesn't fit in with my lifestyle or this, whatever it may be, you will be fully refunded. Um and so uh, and I don't want to necessarily say fully, but you know, I don't know. Might keep the deposit. That's what a deposit is. You keep you keep the deposit. But what uh you know, whatever it is, just because someone else could want them if and so you don't want to lose there's opportunity costs there.
SPEAKER_00So um so when I have somebody call me, like the questions I want them asking is like, you know, the basic questions, name, what's her name, what's their color, what's her what's their sex, and then when then when we get into you know talking about um you know what they're looking for, I just straight up ask them, I was like, be real with me. How many days a year do you hunt? And even though I tell people to be honest, if they tell me 30 days, I usually figure that's on about 15. If somebody tells me 60, then I usually figure about 45. And I can I can usually get a pretty good feel for them. So like when you're talking to your to the to the guy that's got the dog, be honest with them because if because if you come to me and say, you know, I'm hunting 30 days and you're really only hunting 15, and I sell you a dog that's gonna be able to hunt, you know, 30, I'm gonna give you a little bit more than that. I'm gonna make you know, but if I if I you know a 30-day dog is different than a 60 and 90-day dog, right? I'm gonna get you something totally different. And if you get too much dog, you're gonna be overwhelmed. And then if you don't get enough dog, you know, you're you're gonna be underwhelmed and you're gonna be dissatisfied. So when you're talking to the sellers, be honest with them and tell them exactly what you want. Because if you call them and they do have a dog, you know, I've done this before where I've had a few dogs for sale, and and I've I when we initially started talking, I had one dog picked out, and I was like, nah, I don't think that's gonna fit. I think you're gonna need this one. And and I've had guys call me and I've had dogs for sale, and I just straight up tell them, man, I don't have anything, I don't think it'll fit. I mean, I've got a nice dog, but I don't think it's gonna fit you. Yeah. And so that's good about going and buying a already trained dog because you know what you're getting, and you can really kind of see what you know how that's gonna fit, you know, right there. You don't have to wonder how the dog's gonna fit into your life. You you already know what you're getting. Right. So yeah, don't be ashamed to do that. That's a that's a good role. I mean, for me and my lifestyle right now, it's hard for me to raise puppies, and so I'm not, you know, I'm not doing any puppy backgrounding. And uh, you know, the next time I get a dog, well, I might buy something that's already started. Because I've already got this one puppy coming in, so that's kind of and I got a um a couple older puppies. So I'm like, all right, I got kind of I'll call it three. I don't have any more room, so if I needed to buy another one, I would just probably go ahead and get one that was that was started and get him going. So that's not a bad route to it. I do it from time to time if I need to. Yeah. If I find a good deal, yeah, like finding a good deal on him. Gotta be careful about those good deals, though. There's usually a catch right there. There's usually a catch. Yep. Well, guys, we got caught back up. Episode nine. That was kind of a smorgasborg of information there, but wanted to let you guys know what we were doing. We apologize for the delay, but look, we're back on track. We tricked you. We y'all thought we'd quit. We ain't no quitters around here. We've just been working a little bit. It's like I walked up and I saw you. I was like, Well, I know you've been training, you're tan. And I looked at myself and I was like, I've been training too because I'm tan. And so that that's a good hey, that's a telltale sign if you know somebody's actually dog training during the summer. Because if they got their farmers tan and they look a little sunburnt, yeah, they've probably been out there doing it. So yeah. That's a good thing to look at. Well, guys, we're gonna get back on the get back on track, hopefully be rolling these out. And uh, I mean, Will and I are still very busy, so I don't know if it'll be week to week, but hopefully at least every other week we're gonna be rolling through these. Hopefully a guest here and there. Yeah, yeah. I uh we're gonna we've spoken to a few guys, don't want to name them yet, because I hadn't firmed everything up, but I think we got some good guests on here and excited to have them on and and get their take. There's one guy in particular that seems like he just does a lot of I mean it's it's similar to what we all do, but he just he seems uh uh very thorough and and kind of unique about what he does. So I want to pick his brain about it. But we're looking forward to it. We appreciate you guys listening. If y'all got anything, give us a shout over and out. Thank y'all. Thank y'all.