You’re More Than Your Elevator Pitch

Most networking advice tells you to perfect your elevator pitch.

But what if that’s the wrong place to start?

In this episode of The Awkward Handshake, Mary and Megan sit down with Kellen Moody to talk about why people are so much more than the one-line explanation of their business — and why the best networking conversations rarely start with a rehearsed pitch.

Kel brings a refreshing perspective on curiosity, connection, and the power of being a genuinely interesting human in professional spaces. Together, the three of them unpack how real relationships form, why curiosity is one of the most underrated networking skills, and how conversations become more meaningful when we let people show up as full humans instead of job titles.

If you’ve ever felt boxed in by the pressure to “deliver the perfect pitch,” this conversation might be the permission slip you didn’t know you needed.

Because the best rooms don’t reward the most polished pitch.

They reward the most human presence.

In This Episode, We Talk About:

• Why elevator pitches can sometimes shut down real conversation
• The role curiosity plays in building authentic connections
• How to ask better questions in networking settings
• Why being interesting matters more than sounding impressive
• The difference between transactional networking and relational networking
• How curiosity leads to stronger collaborations and referrals
• Why your personality and interests belong in the room too

Connect with our guest, Kellen Moody:

• Kel's Website
• Kel's LinkedIn

Keep in touch! 

Follow Megan Eckman

• Fat Cap Design
• PDX Spellbound

Follow Mary Williams

• Sasquatch Media Grounds
• Sensible Woo

Transcript

0:00

This is The Awkward Handshake, a podcast about networking business and what really happens in the room. We're unpacking the good, the bad, and the awkward, so you can build better connections and get paid. Let's get into it. Megan, we have an amazing episode today. We are gonna have Kel Moody on as our guest. Yeah, It was such a good conversation and we're gonna talk about what do you bring to your community when you network? Juicy question. I think we assume when we get in our car and go out to the networking place that it's my business card and you know, whatever I'm selling, basiKelly that's all I have to offer. And I think you get a better experience if you can widen you offer. And I'm not saying like you have to come up with something on the spot, but just kind of reminding yourself that you are a multidimensional person with thousands of things that you can offer and many different ways to connect with people.' cause we've certainly had conversations where we have, chatted with somebody and shared like, where did you get an outfit? Who cut your hair? Where do you take your cat to the vet? Like, yeah, there's all these weird things in addition to just, this is normally how I help people in a business way. And I think. we're kind of moving forward in this timeline that we're on, with authenticity and community. You know, it is being this more multidimensional person that is of value to a community and allows you to belong in it in a deeper way than just the BNI person. I do believe you are talking about diversity and that diversity also lives within you. Yeah. If you're interesting, I mean, we, we've met some where you're like, I don't know, I feel like those people are masking. I mean, we'll talk about it. Mm-hmm. Because I think, I hope so.'cause otherwise I'm always like, wow. I think Mo, I think everybody is interesting. You might not be my kind of interesting that I wanna spend a whole time around. Yeah. But I do think that everybody has very diverse, interesting things about them, but if you hide it, you become very, very boring. Yeah. Very quickly because you become beige. Become like everybody else, and people can see through that bullshit real fast, which Kel talks about in our chat with them today. And so we're going to, move right on into our discussion with Kel, but first we wanna introduce Kel to everybody. We have known Kel for a while, but somebody listening to this might not. So Kellen, who goes by Kel Moody, is a community cultivator and placemaker. As the founder of Alluvium gatherings, they create and uplift movements through the design planning and implementation of gatherings. They have a passion for convening communities and leading teams to create meaningful experiences through their deep networks of relationships across the bio region. They have led dozens of small and large sKele events, including the week-long virtual festival of what works hosted by Salmon National Trust. They have also worked in and around the certified B Corp community using business as a force for good since 2016. They serve on both the B Loca l PDX board and Build Local alliance board based out of Portland, Oregon. Kel deeply believes that developing a strong sense of place is one of the most meaningful pathways to purpose, and that gatherings have the power to motivate collective impact to drive real and meaningful change. We also know Kel for being on the board for ORPIB, which is Oregon Pride in Business, the LGBT Chamber for the area. And so with that, we're gonna dive into the episode with Kel. Hey Kel, welcome to the show. We're so glad you're here. Hi, I'm really excited to chat with you all. We really wanna have a chat about what it's like to be an organizer on the board of ORPIB which is the LGBT Chamber in the Portland Metro region. And you're also heavily involved in the B Corp community. Mm-hmm. Which is incredible. There's, I just came up on 10 years in the B Corp community. What? Whoa. This is my 10th. That's amazing. Yeah. Well you came to some of Megan and mine private networking parties. Yeah. And you're a great contributor there too. And so thank you. Clearly you have networking skills, my friend. We talked before we hit record, that it would be really good for other people to hear from a quality organizer with reputable organizations. What are some of the best things people can do when it comes to the. Having better connections within organizations like that, getting involved, making good connections, and then maybe also some cautionary tales of things that you have seen, which I'm sure you have probably too many. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. Well, I would say first of all, as a white bodied person who is masculine presenting, yeah. Um, I often kind of try to take up. As little space as I can and more so spend my energy on stewarding other people's involvement. although I do participate, I think I, really think about how can I act as a steward to other people's experiences. is really actually what led me to be an event planner because I really like to create this experiences for other people to have. maybe, to a fault almost in some ways. But, I really think it's important to use the really unwarranted privilege that people just automatically give me because of the perceived identity that I have. Well, the real and perceived, to kind of distribute that to other people and. You know, unfortunately because of the color in my skin and the fact that people look at me and think that I'm a dude, people will pay attention to what I say more in any space, unfortunately, whether or not it's a queer or, conscious or progressive space, it's still like, it's so societally ingrained. Oh, really? That, yeah. Aw. That I actually. People actually just automatiKelly think that I know things or they'll listen to me more and I'm like, this is so weird. Going from being a fem presenting person to a very, obviously queer but female bodied person. To a now perceived male, even though I'm still like, identify as non-binary. the difference in the way that people interact with me has been one of the most like shocking experiences of my transition. Not necessarily surprising because we all will hear these stories. if I was a man, I know I could walk into a hardware store and that people wouldn't question me as much or they wouldn't talk to me the way that they do. It's so a hundred percent true, but it's not just the obvious places like the hardware store, the auto shop, it is anywhere. In any community space. And so I have like really tried to be conscious of that. And first of all, a lot of conversations I have with other trans masculine people is like, how can we steward masculinity in a different direction, but also like, how can we use it against itself? And so a lot of the way that I approach my work is how can I take this power that I've been granted and like use it to. Disrupt that power. question. I feel like I didn't answer your question at all. No, you, you let us down a fantastic path. I have so many questions, like I wanna know everything from how you approach disruption. Having a unique perspective of living life, female presenting, and then also male presenting, and then spectrum in between and then also wondering for our community that listens to this podcast, people have their own gender identities as well. Mm-hmm. And they present however they present. It's like when you're thinking about, well, how do I get better at networking? Or how do I get more outta networking? Especially in the area we're in, is there something that people need to do based on their gender presentation? I mean, that would be better for every, like collectively better for everyone because I mean, I, I have to say, I have met a lot of male identifying and male presenting people in the last couple of years since we doubled down on doing local work. Because in my online experience it was so female heavy. Mm-hmm. I was so pleasantly surprised by how much support I got from a lot of my dudes. Mm-hmm. not, I mean, not universally. Sure, sure. There was somebody we were talking about before we hit record and we were like, this guy will never acknowledge women, doesn't make eye contact, will like literally walk away from you in the middle of a conversation. At the network of the network, he will try to leave other men away from us. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I mean, there are those, there are those out there for sure. But then I've had these fantastic champions that have come through and I know Megan, you've had it too. Yeah. And yeah. and I wonder and not hashtag did not all men, right? Oh God. The mean biggest thing too is it doesn't even occur to them. Yeah. That they're unusual. That's the thing is that there's a complete, and you can't blame them. Like they have their lived, the lived experiences of people are their, you can't change people's lived experiences. Yeah. And you can't, you know, you say walk a mile in someone else's shoes, but you really actually can't do that. Yeah. That's impossible. Unfortunately. I wish it were, we're not all freaky Friday out here. So having had like multiple lived experiences, I try to talk about it as much as possible, especially to men. And even if they can't feel it in their bodies, they can hear the stories. Mm-hmm. And they're like, whoa. Okay. Interesting. I think there are really great champions that do know how to ride that line between using their power or, or I guess really the pur the, the intention behind the use of the power is the use of the power in order to disrupt those situations, or is it in order to take advantage of it? And it really comes down to like, is this for the good of the collective or for the good of me? To me, the way I see it is the good of the collective is also for the good of me, but I, the hierarchy intentionally is the collective first. That doesn't mean I like ignore my own needs, but it means that I know that serving my collective is going to benefit me more greatly in the long run than if I only tried to focus on serving myself. May I just point out. Your career, your body of work, the relationships you have, the leadership positions you have are clearly directly correlated to what you just described, which is I give to others not all expecting first for them to give to me. And that's been something that Megan and I have noticed as a pattern with people in networking is, they're looking for what do I get first instead of how do I be part of a collective and help others just as much Before I know I'm getting something, you know? And yeah, I mean, actually to me that is how you find true belonging is through reciprocity, because who show up in order to offer value and I, I think this is where we, we really kind of miss, the idea of purpose. Every person in a community has their own unique abilities or skills or lived experience, and that is valuable. Right? And the, and the more diverse lived experiences, skills, abilities that a collective has, the stronger it's, I think we all know that. Mm-hmm. To some degree, but I think it's really about like, how do I figure out how to tap into that? In order to serve my community, because at that point, once you really start to be living in that reality of like, I am valuable to my community because I'm contributing to my community the way that that makes you feel. Is really incredible. Mm-hmm. Because you feel like, oh my gosh, I mean something and I am part of something. And you hold a valuable place in that community. That's not to say that, that's very self important, but it's like there's this deep sense of belonging when you understand how much value you are giving to your community and how much that's making the community better. So it's like. The whole is, is greater than the sum of its parts. When you figure out what your part is in that whole, there's like this harmony that gets created and that's not individualistic. It's actually like deeply recipro a deep sense of belonging. So it's really about authenticity, I think. So, one question that comes up in my mind given networking events and things like that, is I can hear people kind of saying, does that mean I need to give everything for free? Mm. Or is some of the value in my services Absolutely. To the community. Okay. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, because I can see some people being like. So I just have to volunteer for everything. But it is also like, what you offer the community in helping other people. Yeah. There's an exchange with exchange of money. It doesn't have to be necessarily purely transactional. I mean, it has to be in some degree because we live in capitalism. unfortunately. But that's what, that's what we're working with. So how do we find that balance between, okay, we all need to make sure that we can survive and thrive. Yeah. In this current economic system that we're forced to be within, but. It's things like, so as a business owner, I absolutely have to have my bookkeeper support. I need to have different, various services that I use. We share the same bookkeeper. I know, shout out. We love, they're making little hearts I'm gonna brag about what I did with Alex is I pretty much like put, pressured him. To start a business because I was like, trust me, Alex, I just alone, I know enough people that would use your services that would probably be enough for you to survive off of. You know? And it turns out that was true. but he's also like just taken off and thrived on his own. But like that to me is like part of like, I needed a bookkeeper. So I was like, yeah, there was a little bit of self-serving nature there for sure. But I was like, I also I'm willing to, because it's doesn't take me that much to make introductions to many people for you. Because that actually looks good for me too. it doesn't have to be just about the self-serving, but it's like when I, you know, made that introduction to you, Mary, and you're like, oh my gosh, this is really helpful for me. How did that make you feel about me? So much better, right? Your value went up to me. it also confirmed things. I already was suspecting that you were a good person, and I was like, yes, more confirmation like Kel is a good person and has good connections in the community, has paid attention to what I need and what I need help with, and therefore we're going to be able to. Continue talking about what we're each doing, and it's, it's because it's reciprocity, I think we all know the difference when you approach somebody and you can tell that they just want something from you. Mm-hmm. Or that they don't really pay attention because they want something from you, or they're just trying to access. Your connections because they want something from you. And we know that difference, and I always say it to me, it feels like in business, I Kell them graduating classes. If you see people cluster together and they sort of rise together.' cause that whole thing, like a rising tide lifts all ships. Mm-hmm. So it's like, well a rising tide lifts the ships that rise together. Mm-hmm. So who are willing to have reciprocity together and I do see those clusters around us. Yeah. I, but that was like a win, win win. Huge win. Huge, huge win for everybody. Everybody benefited from that. Yes. In some shape or form. And that's not bad, right? We, it's not bad to benefit. So like in the sense of networking, I think, you know, the people that show up with this very surface, approach of like, what can you give to me? I don't think they're asking themselves why enough and to what end, which I, I think one of the biggest problems with the system of capitalism is because the only answer that you end up getting, if you ask why or to what end or for what enough times, you will always come back to power and money. And money is power. Mm-hmm. So like that's the same thing. Yeah. there's nothing deeper than that. But why? Why do you need the power? For what? And to what end? And so I think people that are showing up without a deeper reason or why behind, why do they want something from you, it's gonna be really transparent whether you're an intuitive person or not. People can read that. Yes. Right. And so when you show up into a space to network, I think it's so important to be able to. Take some time with yourself to figure out why are you there? What are you offering first, and then what are you hoping to give in that order? don't come with it, with the approach of like, what can I get out of this? Because I guarantee you, if you come with the approach of what do I have to offer, you will get more out of it anyways. That's just the way it works. And you have to be a real person. People can see through that very quickly, and it's a huge turnoff. So you come and show up to some spaces and you're just doing the business card, passing the spray, pray like, yeah. It's like why? For what? And to what end. I feel self vindicated hearing you say this right now, because you don't, you don't know this, but Megan and I have recorded a series of, episodes and my hot take has been people need to learn social skills. They don't have social skills, and yeah, you don't get better at social skills without going out and practicing them, so, mm-hmm. Congratulations. You get to go out and you get to practice, but it's intimidating. It's scary, but it's very intimidating and you're gonna have on days and off days and whatever, but. I love the way that you have framed this, which is, if you show up in a space and you're willing to really hear what other people are saying, so you can see how can I help them? Or is there somebody I know that they should meet? Or even just words of comfort. Sometimes the world that we were talking before we hit record, the world is a dumpster fire. On this glorious day in January, 2026, when we are recording and we're all tired and we're all, stressed out with. World events and sometimes you just need to go in community and just be there to be like, and also just acknowledge that. Just to acknowledge it. Say you go to a networking event in this time right now. Yes. That we're in and you're, and someone asks you, how are you doing? And you're like, I'm good. People are gonna be like, what? What is wrong with you? Like, what are you drinking? Yeah. Like I think it's funny you say that 'cause I always answer honestly and the looks I get from that. Yeah. The people are like. I didn't think, okay, we're going there like, well, yeah, you have to. We wanted the good. And I was like, well, today that. And then they're like, oh, she's actually gonna answer me. Yeah, okay. Now I'm in this conversation. And I was like, well, you shouldn't have asked sweetie if you didn't. Right. And honestly, the more that we can do that, the more it gets normalized. And people do need to be uncomfortable in that way. we don't wanna make people uncomfortable in an unsafe way, but I think we do wanna make people uncomfortable in a way that like helps them really expose themselves in a more vulnerable way. Because that's how you get to authenticity. That's how you get to what your why is. That's how you get to your purpose and that's how you get to feeling a sense of belonging. Yeah. No one's gonna feel belonging if they're not being their real whole selves. Mm-hmm. That's not how that works. But also to acknowledge that even if you're not as averagely uncomfortable as other people might be on any given day, doesn't negate their discomfort, and you kind of need to see that business is people. Mm-hmm. Like you need to be able to see how the people around you are feeling. Megan and I have collected incredible amounts of data. And it shifts and changes constantly, but we're like, wow. The theme that we keep seeing in this quarter is like, there's a lot of people hunting for jobs right now. Mm-hmm. Or, or we're noticing people seem really anxious or we're noticing that overall the mood, the overall mood and the collective seems to be, you know, fill in the blank. and it has been very helpful for deciding like, do I wanna launch that thing right now? Or mm-hmm. Am I talking about it the right way or is it useful? Do people even want that? and then to be able to ask people when you see them because you're being maybe a tad more authentic. We hope. that you might get something good out of that. and so I love this angle that you're taking with it. Yeah. I mean. It's also about, I mean, as an event planner, there's also creating the container for that to be. Possible, please say marvelous. And I don't mean just like the physiKel space, but Yes. The physiKel space does matter. Yes. Yeah, for sure. but it's also like just the tone you set and that starts from the very first time that someone even hears about what you're doing, So like, what is the language you're using to describe what you're doing? How are you inviting people in? How are you helping them set their expectations of what's gonna happen? There's nothing worse than showing up to an event without any information about what's gonna happen or what you're supposed to be doing, or how you're supposed to be showing up or like,'cause that actually forces people into this like additional layer of thought around what am I supposed to be doing? How am I supposed to be behaving? Where am I supposed to be right now? What's what? Why am I here? And that like takes them out of the moment. Mm-hmm. I try to explain that to somebody.'cause what you explain just like what I do sometimes, like customer experience design, right? Yeah. Like every touch point. I have the middleman who sold me my business insurance, and he puts on these events and he is like, you haven't come to one, tell me why not? And I was like, I'm the person who loves surveys. I'm like, let me tell you. And I was like, I don't know who's gonna be there. I don't know the point of this. And he is like, well, it's people I know. I'm like, great. I don't know who you know. And he's like, well, it could be anyone. Maybe you're not adventurous enough to come out. And I was like. I don't know who's coming. I don't know who you are. Yeah, I don't know what I'm gonna get. I don't know what the dress code is. I don't even know where this is because it's not listed until I-R-S-V-P. So the anxiety's already going up? Yeah. Like I don't know where, I don't know when. I don't know how I'm gonna get there. And I told him all that and he's like. Maybe you're just not adventurous enough to come to these things. And then he was like, but my best friend, a real estate agent, like he made friends with all the new people who came and I'm like, he's a real estate agent. Yeah. The man will make friends with like a tree. Like it's about, but my question is, are they, are they real friends? Friends or is he hoping it's a client, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I think, there's something really interesting about. people's, um, aversion to structure. Yes. In that way it's like people. Think that structure is stifling and it's, it stops innovation and it stops create, have an an open office.'cause if you like Yeah. You have like too many rules and too many boundaries and I'm like, actually no. Structure is more stifling. Yes. Too much structure. Sure. Yeah. Fine. I will jump on that train, but the tyranny of structurelessness. It's a, it's an essay. Very interesting. Recommend it. it's this idea that without any structure and any limitations, it's so easy to become completely frozen because you don't know what to do. It's nothing. it completely blank space. Even for an artist. Even for a musician, a completely empty nothing, no information, no input. You have nothing to work with. That I think happens in a lot of networking spaces. It happens in a lot of startups. Yeah. Because they're like, we just wanna be open to innovation. And it's like, actually you need some boundaries. You need some specific ways in which you are asking people to behave. You're asking people to show up. And then within that level of structure, that actually can be extremely liberating because. whether we like it or not, hierarchy exists. I know there are ways in which we can, disrupt certain amounts of hierarchy or, you know, try to create flat systems, but that also requires a lot of structure. A lot of structure, a lot of structure. And that's, again, it's like setting expectations. How do we behave? How do we show up? What are the rules of engagement? What's, how do we make sure there's accountability when the rules are broken? That is so important. That creates safety. It also creates a space for people to be like, okay, here are my bounds. Now I get to do what, do whatever I want within these bounds. Or I get to do it however I want within these bounds, but I understand the bounds. And that is, I think, one of the most important pieces of really any, collective engagement, but I think very much so in events. Oh, that is so good. Kel. I think you have explained so many important things for listeners today. We're probably gonna have you back like a bajillion times to talk about more. Let's, but if there was one bit of advice that you could give people, if they're heading to a networking event this week or tomorrow, or someday in the future, what would you encourage them to do? That would help them make better connections and not just be one of those people who's randomly spraying and praying a business card out there. I mean, I think I, I said it is figure out what you have to offer and ask yourself why at least a few times. I think they say like, ask yourself why five times and the fifth wise, the one that really is the, the deep, meaningful one, but take some time before you show up to be like, huh, okay. What. what value could I offer this community? If you know what the community is, if you're going to an event where that's been made clear, or even if not, I guess, you know, like some sort of framework of like, what, what do I think would be valuable to other people? and then ask, why would that be valuable? and then think about like why that means something to you to offer. that's the mode you're operating from. And also just be a real person You don't have to talk about your work actually, and maybe to, again, to a fault in my case, I get so far down into relationships with people in very, in, very like business settings. And they're like, wait, what do you do again? I didn't know what you did. That's why I had to research you. What do you, what is your, what is your work? Oh, oh wow. Okay. Interesting. Because I just don't talk about it that much and I could probably do a better job of that. We could all do a better job, I would say. but again, I mean, actually I have not had a single project that didn't come from a referral. none of my work comes from randos finding me. None of it. And I love this so much. I am such a champion with you on not leaning with work first. I've been championing this in, in my world for a few years now, which is what led to the studio, but talking about what used to be considered water cooler chat. Talking about like a TV show or a movie, you'll find very quickly who's on the same level as you, and you'd be surprised how much you all have referral power to each other. Simply because you actually get along and you can talk like normal human beings and it doesn't have to be a capitalistic exchange. Mm-hmm. I think it helps remove that capitalistic exchange. Mm-hmm. It brings the authenticity in. But, okay, so going back to just, I guess thought on that Yeah. SpecifiKelly to Alex for example. Yeah. I actually, hot take, did not really know how skilled he was at bookkeeping. He's extremely skilled. Oh, I didn't extremely, I didn't either, but I actually didn't know. No, I, when I was referring him, I had no idea You're gonna love this story. I didn't know, had, didn't matter. I didn't know that Alex had worked in media. He is the absolute perfect bookkeeper to grow into CFO for me. Yeah. for what I do. But when we met, we bonded over Buffy the Vampire Slayer, right? Yeah. Because we both had animals named after the character Giles. Yes, love. I love that. But that was how we bonded for sure. And we were like, oh, we have to keep in touch. And then we finally got together for coffee. We finally did talk about work and what we were doing. And he actually is extremely good. And he was extremely good. And he completely undersold himself in that conversation. Oh, for sure. And then it was time for me. Right. And it was time for me to change bookkeepers. And he was the first person I reached out to because I knew I had trust. It's, he's gonna gonna deal with my money. Yes. He needs some trust there. And you know what? We have the best meetings and if we can't have fun, then what are we doing then? What are we doing? Like why? I mean, yes. Like we ha we're forced to live in capitalism. We ha we have to unfortunately, until it crumbles and falls and I am patiently not so patiently waiting for that day. And as hard as it's gonna be and as painful as it's gonna be and as much harm as that is going to cause it is inevitable. while we're here, we gotta do as much harm reduction as possible and that means it's pleasure, joy, wherever we can find it. Yes. Agreed. Mm-hmm. Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, it's been great. We really enjoyed having Kel in the studio. Yeah. we pulled out some segments to help everyone, including ourselves, digest all of the conversation. the first theme really was belonging through reciprocity in that it's such a beautiful concept when you think about it. I don't think I'd ever. I honestly had never put that together before. Same until hearing it from Kel. attaching all the words together and being like, ah, it is, it's a reciprocity action. That's how you get belongingness. Yeah, because we all want to belong to something. when you and I go to these events, like you can tell that there are some people who've been there over and over. who know them all. We've been to certain groups where it is very, insular In the sense that everybody knows everybody mm-hmm. For a very long time. Oh, yes. and there's a part of us as humans that really wants that. And I think a lot of us don't always know, how do I get that besides time. But I think it, it didn't even occur to me that it is through giving. and listening as receiving. That you can begin to belong somewhere. I really loved that. Kel talked a lot about diversity in this episode, which we have been wanting to have more and more on our, on our season because. That lens matters because reciprocity is the direct result of understanding someone else's experience, even if it hasn't been your own. And there were so many good mic drop moments that Kel gave us for that. And when I was digesting that for our notes. It really felt like reciprocity is really about mutual respect. Like the true respect, not the performative kind. You don't get true belongingness without reciprocity. And I kept thinking, well, where does reciprocity come from? And I was like, oh, that's just straight up genuine mutual respect. Yeah. I think, honestly, it's almost sad to say, but. I think we're kind of still surprised when we get it.' cause it makes you realize how much you don't have it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Especially for, you know, us two being female like mm-hmm. When you get it from a guy And you're like, and he does it without even. Thinking Uhhuh, like it doesn't even occur to him that they're like so surprised. Yes. He's so surprised that we are surprised. And it's like, no, no. we're both thinking about the exact same person right now. Yeah. And we're like, how do I clone you? And also like, oh my God, you're so cute. Like, how do I, like just the nicest Pokemon, like how do I collect all of you there? Any more of you in this room the mutual respect part is. Really important. I feel like the like real crux of this theme that came out of our discussion with Kel really goes beyond those of us who organize community, like in order to participate in community and somebody else can organize it for you. It is still a two-way street and it's really quite nuanced and complex, but if you come into a space and you don't respect it or the people in it,'cause you're like, what do I get, what do I get then you're gonna erode the sense of belongingness for people. And they're gonna sense the bullshit from you. Mm-hmm. And then you feel like it's not a recipro I mean, you and I have had comments from people we know who were like, well, I don't feel like I got anything out of that. And now I look at it and I'm like, oh, my bullshit meters go off. Which you know are terrible anyways. You have far better bullshit than I do. You're just, you're one level down. I'm lifting my little tiny soup. Can Your soup, can my little tiny soup can. One day I should be big and strong like gold. Like you, no.'cause then you, then you get jaded. I love that. You think that? And I'm like, it's a superpower. but people do. I think at a gut level, you can watch how people move away from someone in a room, how quickly they will move. we've been in rooms where somebody enters people notice. And the mood changes. It's like the blood in the water, like that one little drop, and then all of a sudden everybody's like, oh no, we need to change what we're talking about. You know, like, we'll kind of shift away from that person or whatnot. And, and usually they don't, they don't notice it at all. Are you suggesting that we are like schools of fish? People move around like that? Yeah. you know what? I never thought about watching the room like that. Now I'm gonna do that. Oh yeah. gonna be so fascinating. that's why at the end of the, the networking, I am on the floor.' cause I'm processing because I need to know where everyone is and what everyone's emotional state is. Yeah. For my safety. And that's just the, that's my, that is 150 pound deadlift there that like the training. so yes, I, I pay attention to how people move. Around a room. And how frequently in realizing in this moment, how much I camp out in like one corner. You do? Yeah, I do. I camp out in one corner and then people come to me, or sometimes I'll go to them, but then I bring them back to my corner. Like I like the fish that hides in the coral. But maybe, maybe that's your, your other training, like you've scoped out the optimum sight line spot. I do have a thing, I do not like my, back being open. I like to take the high ground and I like to get a bird's eye view Yeah. Of everything. And I do watch people and I pay attention to where is everybody flocking to? Is there somebody here I've really been wanting to talk to? How busy are they? I'm not going to go insert myself while the schools of fish are crowded around them. There have been many meetings in the past where you know that there's somebody I wanna talk to and like everybody wants to talk to this person. Yeah. And I'm like, this is not the time nor the place. No. And I'm like, and I might. Tap them on the shoulder, on the way out and be like, Hey friends, see you later. And then they're always like, oh, hugs, you know, bye. And then I will send them an email later. Yeah. cause you'll engineer it. I'll engineer the, the expectation that I am sending them a message. So yeah, I have done that on, on many an occasion. but that's not performative. I mean that, that's you genuinely wanting to meet with them and. I feel like it's, it's an amount of respect because They're busy. I've had people who wanna talk to me too, and I'm like, there's only so much conversation that can happen. Very loud room in this tiny little window of time. And if it's genuine business, we need to have a conversation outside of that space. Yeah. Anyways, so. Why would I expect that person to drop everything for me in that moment like that is, I don't think mutual respect. No, and you're, you're right. I mean, I think it, it does show respect because also they might be out for like a fun time, networking is everywhere and so. In my mind, it's like when people see celebrities and then they go bug them. Oh, right. Having worked in a celebrity industry, yes. Yeah. It would never occur to me to go bug them because I would hate them. they're not in the right setting for that to be taking place. Very true. If they're out and about. but I, think you're correct in that it is respect if there is someone the one Mac, what do we go from Mac from Max's list? We love Mac from Max Mac. Mac always has like 12 people. I always, million around them feels so bad for everyone crowds them at every event. And I mean, he's so gracious and he loves talking with everybody, but we would not go up to him and be like. I wanna have a deep conversation with you right now. That's not respectful. That man is, he's just trying to have his hor d'oeuvres and deal with everyone that's coming for him. know, I think there's different ways to show the respect, but a lot of it's just too. Like active listening. yeah, totally. showing an interest, feigning, I would even take feigning and interest. Sometimes what foreign concept?' cause sometimes everyone just talks at you. And you're like, I'm not gonna do any business with you. Like you're not letting me talk at all. I'm realizing that I have a networking tell and now when I say it. Anyone who pays attention to this podcast is gonna know, but I'm not a big drinker. But when there are events and there's like cocktails or whatever, if you see me. With like a legit drink in my hands. Mary's had a really long fucking day. She's probably tired, and to come talk at me in that moment, I'm literally just, and you'll see me start to gulp down the drink and I'm a slow drinker, and I'll just be like, I'm going to suck this gin and tonic through this tiny little straw right now. And I'm like, mm-hmm. And that's me disassociating completely from the conversation. That's so that the words, so your mouth is busy, so the words don't come out of it. It's a way to get the captions to change on my face so that they're not completely blatant, because a lot of times when I have a choice, I'll pick soda water with lime. it might look like a drink, but if it's like, clearly obviously a cocktail, y'all be respectful. You, you now know the, tell If you see me with a glass of wine in my hands, you know, cause I. Will frequently choose mocktails or non-alcoholic? Yeah. Just because I'm such a lightweight and I don't rely on alcohol to help me socially lubricate. So if you find me drinking a cocktail in the, it's because it has been a long day or a long week, or I'm like, oh, gurg, your loins gotta get through this event. So I, I think that segues well though into you know, like Kel was talking about, like, how do you show up as your true self? Yes. And I think, you know, you admitting the only way we're like, I'm tired. That's your true self. you didn't fake your way through it. No, You didn't pretend. Yeah. I'm usually pretty honest when people ask. I find that, if I'm honest, it helps them create some reciprocity, I guess. maybe that's a little bit of emotional labor on my part, but I think for me, what it looks like is, we talked about it with Kel, like, I will answer questions honestly, how are you doing? It doesn't occur to me to. To just say, good, fine. No, which is probably why I love having you as a friend because you never answer the question. Like, I'm fine There are people I have known and. Don't have as close association with anymore, because if you ask them, how are you? And they're like, I'm great. And I'm wow. that has pixie dust and neon puffy paint all over it. Yeah. Like, oh my god. I love that you will tell people honestly how you're doing. I think it's because I realized it comes from grocery store checkouts. Because he always ask. And what I That's 'cause you go to Trader Joe's, see? You don't like it. I have conversations. I mean, I know there's a guy there he helped me buy a watch. Like girl, I make Costco in a self checkout lane with like a hundred items in the cart and I will scan every single one.'cause I'm like, I don't wanna talk to anybody. Oh no. See I'm so curious 'cause I always wanna know like, what's the weirdest combo you've rung up today? But when they ask and you just give a response, they didn't care. They're trained to do it, and I don't like being invalidated. Every checkout person at Trader Joe's does know me and they're like, you're memorable. I've been Kelled that. They're like, you and your husband always match when you come. Like you got the jackets. And then they're like, your style is so cute. And I'm like, I am like. What are you talking about? Half the time I'm not even dressed properly. When I come here, I keep thinking back to our introversion extroversion episode and I'm like, girl, you sound like a fucking extrovert, right? I, well, yeah, maybe I am. I don't know anymore. We're gonna find out by the end of this season. I'm gonna have to take that quiz, but I feel like that's one of my ways that like I just can't, I refuse to mask in that way or Or follow that social norm. I wanna have an actual conversation. If you're gonna open up your mouth and ask me how my day is, I will just be telling you. And you can see that half the people are very surprised that. Oh, There was an answer. I'm actually gonna have to listen to this person now and have a conversation. I feel like that's a true marker of self-esteem and confidence on who you are. And it ties in so beautifully to this note that came out from us having this conversation with Kel, because Kel brought up gender norms and gender identities, which are so important and you and I've been wanting to have. The conversation about like the queer experience and we are in a part of the country that is very queer, accepting and mm-hmm. Very normalized. Like people will come and they're like, where's the LGBT district? And we're like, everywhere. Everywhere. Like, there's not one place, you know? There's not like one neighborhood. It's not the Castro. Yeah. No. And so. Because of that. I think sometimes we kind of forget that other people feel certain things really strongly and I think there's markers of self-esteem and self-acceptance and that really came out in what we talked about with Kel. My favorite quote was, you cannot change someone's lived experiences. That it was such a great mic drop moment. I feel like. If somebody wanted to go back and listen to that part again, it would help you recognize your own advantages and disadvantages and before you step foot in a networking environment, understanding that about yourself is half the work you do. And dare I say it, but I think like to your, to your point. Honestly answering a social normative question. Oh, hello, how are you? This is such an American thing to do. Oh, hello. How are you? And everyone's like, fine, fine, fine. You know, and then they move on and you're like, I'm gonna actually answer your question. You know, I'll make you regret to. Change that interaction changes the reciprocity factor. It changes the respect factor. I mean, you're gonna vet so much more quickly who can hang in that space with you and who doesn't? And you do, I mean, you really like vet people and you're like, they didn't answer my question. Even my therapist starts everyone with like, how was your week? And I'm like. Oh, okay. well that's a big question, Stephanie. Like, okay, let's go into that. This is like the neuro divergence quiz show me how you brush your teeth and all of us who are. Not neurotypiKel or like, well, it depends on the toothbrush, and then there's the toothpaste, and then you have to, is this the morning, morning of the evening? It's like, and like, what happened? You know? And it's like, no, the, the answer is to demonstrate the action of like brushing your teeth. Like that is the answer to the question. And we cannot do it. No. Like, I gotta check in first. How am I doing? I dunno, how am I doing today? Yeah. I, I just feel like it's such a great example of like a deeper. Way of showing up is your true self. and when you take that, then deeper into gender identity discussion, it makes you realize where you've had fair and unfair advantages. And if you are aware of that, when you walk in a room, you can then step up in a way that gives true reciprocity, your connections to other. Networking connections are gonna deepen quicker, faster, and then go more deeply as a result. And, you know, Kel's discussion of experiencing life, in a societal female identifying way, and then male passing is. To me so fascinating because I've never had that experience. And so for me, I'm always like, I just assume people look at me like I'm some like powerpuff girl or something. And I feel like I'm always fighting against that. Ditto. Yeah. And I think too, it's, I think when we we can kind of show that respect and we can open up and be honest about a lot of things, even like. Money. I think it really helps everyone because I've collaborated with people and been like, okay, here's who my client is and this is what I'm charging. And you and I have both then asked men, Uhhuh, who do like Uhhuh, a similar, like, we ask, what would you charge? Actually you helped me build, build AI bots. Yes. And we asked them, how much would you charge? Yes. And it's been. My experience has been like three to four times more than I was going to. Yeah. And I'm like, oh man. I mean, this is totally like a left turn for a second here. We'll take a little side quest trail. Sorry. but no, because this is so hard because it does get into the gender normative things. Like there, was a pop article that went viral towards the end of last year in 2025. And, this woman, Did some research and found that women reported that their AI advice conversations were giving them advice to negotiate far lower for salaries than for men. And I can't tell you how many women sent me this article, and I went and looked at it and I was like, that is definitely a lived experience. It will not diminish that. And at the same time, I was like, the technologist in me was like. What was your prompt? Yeah, what did you tell it?'cause what you put in Yeah. Is what you get out on a tool like that. Mm-hmm. And I had been providing custom gpt and you had been one of my very, very early testers and you were like, holy shit, this thing is different. And I was like, au contraire mon frere This is not what we are experiencing. And I just kept digging into it and I think that you realize that when you diversify your experiences that, oh, maybe I like live in a bubble. And when you're able Yep. To interact with people who aren't having that experience, you'll learn something. Yeah. From them, the market's totally different than I thought. Mm-hmm. People are willing to pay so much more mm-hmm. In, in the way that, I would prompt that chat bot to help me think through a scenario is very remarkably different than a female gender norm. And so, you know, you can train your bot Yeah. To treat you with female gender norms and you can train it to be. Essentially non-binary. Yeah. I mean, you could also train it to be very male centric, but I mean, whatever. But I prefer, I prefer it to be gender neutral. Personally. I want as many high level observable outcomes as I can possibly see and go from there and it will learn from you as a result and it will treat you accordingly. But I think you and I have been influenced because we started mixing up our gendered identity spaces. Yeah. By not only going to like women only events. And you gain a lot. one of the final things that, came up a lot in our discussion with Kel was making things fun. What a concept and it really flipped the, inner dialogue from, well, what can I get out of this to, what can I offer in the room? When you're thinking about how do we have fun? And the thing that I really walked away with from this discussion is that when you bring something to the table, Frequently we attach it to things around fame and fortune. That I bring accolades to the table. Yeah. I bring medals to the table. I bring whatever. I bring my fancy pants credentials to the table and it's like, but what if the thing you bring is just a really great attitude? I'll speak for both of us. That's kind of why people, we're kind of magnetic in that tense. We're both very memorable. very funny. and they just social skills. We're curious. We listen, we we're respectful. think looking at how can you have fun at any event that you go to, I mean, that's why I ask the grocery store people, like, what's the weirdest combo you've had? I'm always just curious about a space that we go into. what's the history? how many hor d'oeuvres, when you look around the room, you're like, who's gone the most times? Like, who has just rated this thing? It's probably me, but it's like, yeah. How do you just, how do you get to know people beyond the business? And just have fun because you, you wanna work with people that are fun, that you can get along with. You mean you need them to be human, A genuine human. I mean, you think the bar will be pretty low, yeah's kind floor that low. I think that this episode is so worth people re-listening to when they start feeling like they're tripping up on the connections that they might have. Or that they're not getting when they walk into rooms or they feel like they're not getting a result on something. Because the talk around diversity externally to yourself as well as internally to yourself, really came out in this episode with Kel. Mm-hmm. I walked away with so many additional things that I had not considered before. Apparently now it is also. Being human. But you know, authenticity is this theme that has been running in the background of episode after episode that notion of authenticity, it does not leave these conversations. And you feel like that is what we are seeking when we're looking for better connections through networking. And we're like, where's the group? What's, when people are like, what group they're really looking for? Who has authentic people? Yeah. Where can I authentically go and practice dropping my masks and have better, deeper connections that convert into business and. Fun. You know? And fun. Like if you can't have fun. What are we doing here? That's it for today's episode of The Awkward Handshake. We record at Sasquatch Media Grounds in Vancouver, Washington. I'm Megan, co-founder of Fat Cap Design and creator of PDX Spellbound, and I'm Mary. Founder of Sasquatch Media Grounds and Sensible. Woo. You'll find links to everything we mentioned, guests, resources, and ways to connect with us in the show notes on your favorite podcast platform. That's also where you'll get updates on where we're headed next, and when we're inviting listeners like you to join us for guided networking in person and online. Don't be passive. Click the links. Pick better rooms. We'll see you there.