Why We Love Small Talk

Small talk gets a bad reputation.

People love to say they hate it. They call it shallow, pointless, or awkward. But in reality, small talk is one of the most powerful social tools we have — especially in networking spaces.

In this episode of The Awkward Handshake, Mary and Megan unpack why small talk matters more than people think and how it acts as the social bridge that helps strangers move toward meaningful conversation.

Because before you get to the big ideas, the collaborations, and the business opportunities… you have to build comfort first.

And that’s where small talk shines.

Mary and Megan explore how small talk creates safety in a room, why it helps people regulate socially, and how it gives conversations somewhere to go. They also share why resisting small talk can actually make networking harder — not easier.

If you’ve ever felt awkward starting conversations at events or wondered how some people make networking look effortless, this episode will change how you think about the humble art of small talk.

In This Episode, We Talk About

• Why small talk is often misunderstood
• How small talk helps people feel safe in unfamiliar rooms
• The role small talk plays in building trust
• Why skipping small talk can make conversations feel abrupt
• How small talk opens the door to deeper connections
• The difference between transactional networking and relational networking
• Simple ways to get better at starting conversations

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Transcript

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This is The Awkward Handshake, a podcast about networking business and what really happens in the room. We're unpacking the good, the bad, and the awkward, so you can build better connections and get paid. Let's get into it. Everyone's favorite topic today? Small talk. Is that for you or for everyone? It's for me. Okay. I was like, I don't know how I should respond to that. You just looked at me like, no. And that's the episode. Yeah. Well, we're, today we're talking about small talk and icebreakers. because, and this may be my tagline, but they're not evil, they're telling, so this topic comes up all the time when people are talking about networking and I think similar to how you call people out in the introversion episode, you can't use this as an excuse to be like, I don't wanna. I think we have to first define it because Please do. I know we've, I feel like I've said that before, a couple of times when you wrote the title of this, I was like, but I don't like small talk either, so convince me. what you mentioned was that to you, small talk is like the very superficial, almost like societally performative. How are you doing? What's the weather like? It's just fluff. Nothing is ever really exchanged. It's kind of this like very light step dance. We don't touch any topics. We don't get to know each other at all. I think it's a spectrum. Oh, okay. I think that's the far end of one half of the, one part of the spectrum. I think that's me with neurotypicals where I'm like, yes, this is all we have to, this is all you want to talk about. Okay. Yes. But then the other end of the spectrum is the, I don't know if it's the neurodivergent version of small talk, but I'm gonna, classify it more as water cooler talk, which is not the social niceties of like, very fine weather we're having today. Don't you think? Like, not that, but more like very niche little in special interest topics. there's a spectrum across that. Yes. Of in big quotes, small talk. Right. But most people think of how's the weather? The weather? How are your kids doing? Yeah. Sports and think, you know, like. like, and here's it crowd. Did you see that Ludic display last night? I love that show. Learning how to talk like a man. Oh yeah. Look at us demonstrating small talk. Here we go, Megan. I really feel like small talk is not a waste of time. That's my hot take through the whole episode. I really feel like it's how we actually connect on a human level. Mm-hmm. And I think people who are not fans of small talk may have forgotten that and may not realize how often they're actually engaging in small talk as well. Even with people that they have deep conversations with you and I have a lot of deep conversations and we still talk about water cooler chat constantly. And it's part of what strengthens the bond and helps us continue to get to know each other and grow. Like, I don't think that there is what you and I are doing today and have today without the small talk. I think too, people who say that they don't like small talk either, they only have that one view or, hate it, but we're just gonna say it. It might just be boring. Oh, it, I didn't say it first. I know. Oh my God. I'm so proud of myself in this moment. I didn't say that first. I'll be the bad one. Yes, it means, it, it's a valid question though. Are you even interesting ing? Because some people, maybe they hide all of their secret hobbies somewhere, but they don't bring it with them. And, and some people, so I have to laugh at them. How can you hide your secret hobbies? So then everybody display them. Like the rest of us. I've got like 10 hobbies going on right now. I know. so my husband works at like a normal job interacting with normal nine to five people and he will come back from meetings in person and he'll be like, oh my God are neurotypical people, just boring.'cause like they don't, they don't do things like, they don't wanna talk about their crafting, their cycling. They're traveling. it's just work. It's just work and the kids and the weather and he's okay. He's dying. Understood. I am wondering if, for the neurotypical crowd. That the Yeah, write in. Please write in. But I'm wondering if, for the neurotypical crowd, if, because they're not neurodivergent, we're, we lack filters. They have an actual filter. Yes. And so they're filtering really hard thinking that this is how they're supposed to be. Yeah. And then for a neurodivergent crowd, it's this sort of like, oh, I don't wanna be so weird. I don't know how to talk about things. Like either I go all deep on a thing, you know? Yeah. like, you think you're going super deep on a thing meanwhile surprise it's smell talk. You know? And, I wonder if that is what people are experiencing when they're rejecting the concept of small talk. I hope so. I hope so too. Because there's really no other way to get to know somebody. You don't, propose marriage on the first coffee date. Why would you jump into the deep end the first time you meet someone and try to have a high ticket sales conversation with them? You just don't. No. and you think this is where people get frustrated with networking and they don't really know how to navigate that when the answer's really simple, it's small talk. Yeah, because I need to know, can I get to a point where I like you? like I kind of have to like you to work with you. Yeah. I know there's somebody out there who's like, I can work with anybody. I'm like, good for you, but I can't, I think small talk also shows. Can you talk without a script? Oh, yes. Yeah. Say more words. We've been to quite a few, especially more, I feel like more in the tech space. Or the startup space where they have these like pitch decks in their head. And once you ask a follow up question, it's kind of like, what do you mean you don't understand? because half the time it's like my brain like probably freezes. And you just say, they're like, oh. And I'm like, I don't know what they actually just said to me. And then I'm like, give me an example. And have, or like say it in a different way. And half the time they're like, uh, uh, I can't. And you're like, oh, okay, well this, this isn't gonna go anywhere then I don't actually, oh, see, I just automatically categorize those guys as like completely socially awkward. Right.'cause they can't talk to without a script. So we're talking about are you interesting? It does come down to that. But also do you have social skills there? I am. I'm, I'm back. I'm back. You're back. Do you have social skills? You have people skills and Yeah. This is part of it. I wonder if our technology age has made us less adept at this, because we do type away on screens a lot. yeah. And I think people who kind of going back to our introverted episode, I think people who are shy can have more trouble with this too. Yeah. Because again, it's not, not necessarily like knowing what topics are, are safe or not, or not wanting to be seen as weird or give too much information, or just not having the confidence to talk about it. Yeah. I mean, I sometimes don't like to share certain things that I really like because I don't want somebody to make fun of it. Oh, I have those thoughts too. Yeah. Or I'll be honest too, when people are like, oh, did you see this movie? I will totally lie. Did you read this book? I will totally lie because I have no idea what they're talking about. But I'll just say, oh yeah, that was, you're making me realize how chronically online I am.'cause people are like, have you seen this? Yep. Have you read that? Yep. Meanwhile, no. If I say yes, it is definitely a no, but I'm just hanging on for this conversation. Well, I asked you before we hit record, I was like, Megan, you know it would be so fun is if we were to talk about something that's small talk ish, like something you've concerned recently. And I was like, I wanna talk about the America's Next Top Model documentary on Netflix. And you were like, oh, but that's really good. And then you were like, I don't know if I wanna say my, and I was like, say it girl. Because like at some point. it's these things that show us who the person is. And you are like a deep lover of manga and anime. Yeah. And I do admittedly do not consume as much of that material. I know what you're talking about, but I don't consume it in the way you consume it. However, I respect the fuck out of your love of those things. And I think like when we talk with people about these water cooler topics, I don't know if it's like people think that they have to agree or have consumed it or like it in order to be like, I respect that person's right to like that thing, you know? But it tells me a lot about you. and it's cool. It does. And I never feel like when somebody says that they really like something, it's never a, I can't be friends with them because they like that thing and I don't like that thing. You are correct in that it tells you so much information. cause there's tropes and genres for everything. Right? Yeah. And so I know that if you like true crime, oh, like I know what else you like, you know, like, yeah. Yeah. And you can start to see where your commonality would be and like what those Venn diagram overlaps would be. but I think it also, just paints them as a more interesting layered person. Yeah. They're more multidimensional than just, this is at a business event and this person sells this thing and I read Business Insider. Yes. And you're like, great. Is that your favorite magazine? Wonderful. I am really busy right now. I gotta go to the other side of the room. I will say that I think it's interesting in this day and age that with the amount that people chat with their AI and have conversations mm-hmm. That they're struggling to connect with humans in a similarly fluid way. Oh. And I think small talk is the way that you exercise that. Interesting. Like, how many small talk adjacent things do you feed into your little robot friend? not really. No. Usually you go into it and you're like super deep. I have a purpose. I have a purpose. Yeah. Or I'm investigating something. Also, I'm not gonna ask if they have watched the No. The Project Runway. no.'cause I'm gonna do like a fact check or, or sorry, American Snack style model. They like They wouldn't have watched that. No, they would've watched neither. I mean, they have reference 'cause they can script the internet for it. Yeah. So if I'm doing like a fact check and I'm like, who is the winner of season 11 of Pro Corona? You know, or a cycled 15 America's Next Top model. Like, who won that? Yeah. They'd find the details on it. but I, I wonder like, is this a skill that's atrophying? Mm. That's so interesting because also like with social media, you don't do it on social media. No. People will leave comments and so you got people who are like really strong on their comment game. Yep. They know how to share things, but they're talking at people. They're not talking at people with them. Not at the same time. Water cooler chat requires you to talk with people. They have to be part of the conversation. You can't just talk at them and give them your talking points. And we all went into our home office. Well, let's get into our main points. Maybe somebody will have some big aha moments while they listen to us today. we, the first thing we wanna do is debunk the myth that small talk is a waste of time or doesn't lead to deeper connections. and I really feel like this gets back to your main point that you made a note for was how, how we originally like clicked and bonded, which was the first question of this entire podcast. I know for anybody who's like, yeah, what's the point of small talk, I mean. I think fairly soon after saying, hello, my name is, I asked you what your favorite dinosaur was. You like did not wait for a segue. You were just like, you looked at me across the table at Relevant Coffee in downtown Vancouver on Main Street, and there was no segue. You just looked at me and kind of your head. You do this thing when you're curious and you like tilted your head. I know. Like a Velociraptor. And you were like, so what's your favorite dinosaur? And I was like, oh, we're having this conversation. And I was like, it's a stegosaurs done. And then I saw your like clicked in you and he was like, oh yes, finally. And it's because I had been doing all these coffee dates with people and that was when I had like recently been diagnosed and I was starting to. get that sense of like, this conversation isn't working well, this conversation isn't working well, this one seems to be working well. And the topic range in the conversations that worked well would be vast and wide. And that was kind of when I was like, I wonder if this is another neurodivergent person. What is a way that I could give myself a cue to know, Hey, we can go wherever we want here and know that it's gonna be okay. And I came up with Dinosaur because of the few people that I had asked, like, most people like favorite color, neurotypicals Got it on lock. Right. Easy. How do you pick a favorite color? See, I've cycled through all of them in childhood. Like I can't, I cannot pick a favorite color. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Mine changed every month as a kid. It drove my family nuts. No, I was definitely a pink kid when I was little. I love pink. Like most girls who love Barbie will love pink. My first was black. That makes so much sense. So much sense. But yeah, then I went to art school and I developed such a deep appreciation for the entire color spectrum, which we, and you and I have talked about. Speaking of small talk. Yeah. We, you know, we in it again, talked about color and design theory and it's fascinating. And after that I was like, I just can't imagine a color being ugly or my favorite or pretty. I'm just like, the whole spectrum is so fantastic. how can you not appreciate the whole spectrum of colors? So I just see, but neurotypical would, it's, it's one and it's on lock as what I've noticed anyway. Oh, that seems so limiting. And it hasn't changed since childhood. So dinosaur was what I. Picked up on, because generally neurodivergent people have preferences for things that neurotypical people have not considered. They will have a favorite type of chair. They will have a favorite type of dinosaur. most people have a coffee order, but like there's, there's just more favorite things. Spoons. Yeah. Like cutlery, flatware. Yep. Because we've just given it more thought. We have preferences, we've given it more thought. Yeah. It consumes more of our brain space. Mine is in handbags. I'm obsessed with the correct type of handbag. See, but this is what makes you interesting. Do not give, give me a floppy bag.' cause they drive me. Fucking bananas needs to have structure. It should stand on its own. And you put it on your desk Handle's not too long, nor too short. But, so this kind of. Talk generally leads to those deeper conversations. Yes. And if anybody's like, I have another one too where I, there's a clear deli, like a clear through line, and that is a, when I was vending once in San Francisco, I had a very random conversation about some San Francisco locations with, with somebody who was at my booth and like, you know what art materials I use, what books I read as a kid, things like that. Like, we got deep and then a few weeks later she emailed me and was like, Hey, I work at Google and made an illustrator for a job. Can you come to the headquarters so we can like do a little interview? And I was like, oh, okay. Like, why me? And she's like, well, we chatted and I think you're perfect for this. That's cool. And so, yeah, like you can never know where it's gonna go. But you can get like. Kind of like skip levels to friendship in a way by Yes. Doing the small talk. And it can also make you very memorable. I have this, what most people, that's the word most people use to describe me. Yes, yes. Yeah, I would agree. The Trader Joe's checkout people. That's what they have told me. And I'm like, actually, like, why do you know me? And they're like, oh, you're memorable. And I was like, oh, okay. Actually, Megan, I think Trader Joe's is the perfect place to practice your small talk or I love the checkout people because our checkout people is clearly part of the company culture. They're trained to engage with you. Mm-hmm. And to be able to chat for just a minute or two with your checker while you're checking out for your groceries. Oh, I've got a, a watch guy. we talk about GShock watches, I've got a cat lady. We just talk about our cats. Oh my God. You got like, every category I've trade does, I've one lady who just keeps me updated on the weirdest purchase of the day. I get to pick, when I check out, I see them all lined up and I'm like, which one do I wanna go to today? And I'm like, we're doing the watch guy. And like, right. Oh, that's hilarious. That is awesome. That's like an advertisement for Traders Joes. I love it. But also think about it. But Costco is yours. Costco is mine. And I do chat with you so quickly with people over Costco. Well, it also helps that our friend Veronica, used her 3D printer to make me one of the trays that goes in the cart. So now all the checkers wanna talk to me. Mm-hmm. They, they see me at the Camas Costco now, and they're like, you're back. They know because I have my little tray. But at networking events, when you bring it up and you mention that tray, you are like Costco Royal. Yes. and also so many people love Costco. Mm-hmm. And it seems like it would be such a silly thing. And yet I know that that person values certain Yep. Value systems. Because Costco is known for high customer service, as is Trader Joe's. Yep. And Costco. Unusual items. Unusual items. And Costco's known for an extreme level of quality because of the buyer system that they use. Yep. Efficiency. Efficiency. And, and then there's also, just like in terms of ethical consumption, people are enjoying stores like Costco because of where their, their leadership values lie. And so it tells me a lot about the person that I'm dealing with. If somebody tells me and they pay money and they pay their employees to be a good, oh, I meant you pay. and also you pay to be a member of it as well, which shows you something about that person. Yes. because Costco has all kinds of statistics about their people Promotion. Yes. Promotion. Costco members typically fall within like a higher socioeconomic class. and there's just so many things about a person. It's like if they have a membership, I can assume that they fall within these demographics of Costco. Yep. Which fits the demographics of the people who are most likely to do things with me in the studio one way or another. And as we have determined, good people know other good people. Yep. So there, there goes the network. Right. I have had it happen before where I express my honest and undying love for Costco. Mm-hmm. And somebody will be like, oh, I'm a Sam's Club person. Big red flag. It's a red flag. I'm like, yes, you might be nice, but especially if they double down on Sam's Club. Mm-hmm. Because that has happened before where they're like, no, they, they're like, no Sam's Club. And I'm like, okay, okay. I have to go find Megan. I suddenly need more refreshments. I think like you have, really touched on something important with that because, those small things are not small. No. And I think, given what you were talking about, you can, piggyback on fandoms. Yeah. Costco has a fandom and it overlaps Venn diagram wise with who you want to both have as your client and your collaborators and your friends. So Bringing them up is the same as like back in the day when you were in high school and you're like, what band do you listen to? Are you nsync? Are you Backstreet Boys? And this tells you when I went to school, but I think doing it, you can piggyback on fandoms and use them. Yeah. There would be something that your people would be into, whether that's a movie, a book, even just that genre of books. Right. I know that my read, I know that my clients are John Grham fit. You know, like anything legal drama. Well, it's like, Alex Hopkins who runs all the money in my business. Mm-hmm. We're gonna try to have Alex on the season. Alex and I, when we first met, engaged in Small talk. Yeah. Discovered our mutual love of Og Buffy the Vampire Slayer. Yep. Did you know that they're trying to bring it back? They reviving the show. Yes. Speaking of small talk. Nice example of small talk. Yep. And Alex and I both had beloved pets in the past, soul, level pets that we had both named after the character Giles. And of course you're gonna be friends, of course we're gonna be friends. You could like instant BFFs. It skipped you, skipped all levels. Went right to, we went right to BFF and, and the trust that was there was like instant. it was just one of many small things that we ended up, discovering that we had deep respect for each other, fast. And you wouldn't have gotten there if you just talked. No accounting. I mean, there's so many bookkeepers, right? I had a bookkeeper at the time, and it opened up the discussion of like, well, you know, if things change, whatever. And I was like, well, it just so happens things are gonna change. I'm gonna get key super brick and mortar. And it just so happened that Alex also had worked in media and understood this world, and I was like, it's the perfect fit. I made the change. think like people are frequently looking for some doorway they can go through to get to the sale. Well, Alex cut the sale for me over fucking Buffy the Vampire Slayer, I, I think like there's a lesson to be learned there, and then that's just one story of so many that have brought business in one way or another And maybe they're just around the wrong people. Oh, Megan, that's a hot take. feel like somebody felt that wrong. Oh, my thought was like, did I watch the Super Bowl? No. Did I watch the halftime show? I'm gonna be honest, I watched the like highlight reel because it's not my type of music. I don't do American football. And so I was like, I have to go to a, like a water cooler, like if I worked at a normal place with the water cooler and everybody's like, did you see, did you see that ludicrous display last night? I'd be like, I'm out. I wanna skip all of this.'cause I don't care. So it might just be You don't always hit it out of the ballpark. With Buffy, you don't always like, yeah, yeah. But you have a range of, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully. Are you interesting? Hopefully you have a range we're in Portland area, technically Vancouver, but like hiking and mountain biking. Good guesses, right? Mushroom foraging. Mushroom foraging. Oh my God. Yes. Tell me where your, your patch of morals is. I want to know, can you tell? I spent the weekend looking at the, there are classes to take and guess my husband was like deep diving into which one we should go on. But there, these are things about, there are so many things. Yeah. Even, even if you just like enjoy local shops, like the farmer's market on the weekends or something. Yeah. But like these things count. But it does make me wonder how much or how little people get involved by. Talking with other people and yeah, like, do you go to the farmer's market and love it? Genuinely, but then you never interact with anybody, which is kind of a shame because the vendors there, oh my gosh, really? They can give you so much good business data too. Yes. but they really want to build community with you. Mm-hmm. now as we have determined in the introversion episode, and you and I have so many conversations since that episode, but Mary is a true introvert. Mary does not like talking to people to such a degree. Sometimes you don't do the Trader Joe's checkout. No, when you told me about that, I was like, oh no. Oh no. Because I walk into Trader Joe's and I'm like, oh, fuck, they're gonna wanna talk with me. But I go to Costco and I, there's no time, there's really, because everything moves really fast. There's no time. And so there's like just enough. And also you can make one or two jokes. That's about it. Yeah, Pretty much. I like your point about the Super Bowl and how you might not consume all these things and that it is okay. I've been so busy lately that a lot of these like viral TV shows that I normally would've just eaten up and made time for, I don't have time to consume. The fact that I did get through the America's Next Top model documentary is a miracle. Also, I ended up making time because it was so fucking juicy. I'm gonna have to watch it.'cause we used to watch it, Jeff and I. 'cause it was the only thing, like you didn't have cable and like after a certain. Time. It was either that or like OG Star Trek, and it's like, well, listen, Tyra thinks she won, she did this and I love it. There were so many bad things that happened on that show, and they dug into it and they could have gone even deeper, but But like, yeah. I mean, if you were never an America's Next Top model person, why would you know what you, it's okay. You asked a great question, how do you bond with people in a natural way? And I love that you were the one who popped that on our sheet of notes. How do you bond with people in a natural way? Megan, please show us your ways. Yeah, well. Being on the spectrum helps. But, um, I mean, I'll be honest, I I think you and I have a very easy time of it. I pop the question in for people who are not us. I can make friends with just about anybody. And you and I both said people will just open up instantly. I used to bend to shows and people just feed me ' cause I looked fitable and so like, I just get stuff all the time. Do you think that vending from your previous business with the embroidery kit club, do you think that your experience vending gave you enough reps at the networking gym or the small talk gym that you figured out how to do it because you had to, because you paid for the booth. Mm-hmm. And you're there to make sales and either you're gonna sell shit or you're gonna go home with $0 in your pocket. Mm-hmm. And money is a very motivating factor. I hadn't thought about that, but Yes. because generally to make a sale, you need to engage. It's very rarely that someone will just come up, not talk to you, not look at you and hand you a thing. It does happen generally more older crowd that will do it. I could start to tell by what they were wearing. Are they gonna be a potential customer? I would still greet and give the same spiel to every single person. But if there was one that I knew, this is the person, they're definitely my customer and they're gonna buy, I would look at and you do the same thing. I would look at, look over them and find one thing that I could be like, oh my God, I love your sweater. I love your earrings. They instantly open up, their whole body language changes and they would, they would talk to you and the thing that they said next also would give tidbits and they're like, oh my God, it was on sale. Now I know we got a little bit of a problem because you're just looking like that money mindset instead of like, if I got them from this vendor down there, you know? I do think that really helped. For me, when I was thinking about this question, I was like, let's go think back when you were a kid. Kids make friends so easily and people commented on the time. Yeah. And the, what's the, generally how you picked your best friend was you would ask them one question. Yeah. And it's what your favorite color and you would be, and it didn't matter what the color was, but the guy would, they would be like, okay, cool. Do you wanna come play with me? And they'd be like, yeah. Or I be like, what's your favorite power ranger? Oh girl. And yes, I have a note. And it's told the green on, there were no Power Rangers back then. Oh, no, no. We had like What was your favorite Power Ranger? I think I used to ask people, do you like cats? Perfect. Because I loved it. But we did it as a kid and back then we didn't care about the answer. That was like the segue into it. Uhhuh and I feel like. Why don't we try to do it again? how many questions like that Can you ask people? Go to Trader Joe's practice. Mm-hmm.'cause they'll talk to you about anything. They'll talk to you about, believe me. Anything. Maybe we need to take networking groups to Trader Joe's.' cause you and I are gonna start offering some workshops Yeah. Through, as a result of doing our podcast. And our first workshop out the gate is in the month of March. I don't know if this, this episode will air by then, but, we're gonna help people figure out how to engage in conversation and, develop people skills to talk while they're doing things. And, and small talk is going to be part of it. Like, we are going to put people in rooms and have them do small talk. Yeah. And, I, I think like there's something to be said for if you are nervous to do it, maybe you have the one person that you are comfortable with now and it's like, business practice date and like go out. Mm-hmm. Have lunch. Go to Trader Joe's, get your groceries and go to the same lane together. Yep. And support each other while you engage in small talk. You don't have to tell the checkout person you're engaging in small talk. All you have to do is comment on something that they're wearing. somebody gave me this advice. I don't even remember when or how far back. I bet. I've been carrying this piece of advice around for a long time, and I know somebody else told me it at some point and they were like, as, as a networking world, they like find something to compliment them. Yep. But their advice was make sure you really fucking made it. Yeah. You have to meet it like you have to genuinely care that you love that color red and the sweater that they're wearing. Yeah. Or that they have really cool earrings because they will smell it. Mm-hmm. And, and it's like, and if you don't actually like anything that's going on with them, just. Don't, don't say anything about what they're wearing or how they look or whatever, but, but like really mean it, you know, if you see somebody looking amazing, it's like, you, like, I love, like everything. This is fabulous. but like, mean it, and like that can be such a great way to start genuinely appreciating somebody who you don't know so that, appreciation opens a door for them to be receptive. And then they're probably gonna come back and either give you a compliment. Mm-hmm. Or they might ask you a question and it might be small talk. And at that point you have to engage. You cannot shut down and be like, shortcircuiting cannot do this thing right now. You know, like, we're not robots. A lot of times too, they'll ask, do you have any more plans for the day? And a lot of times they'll be like, I'm going home and I'm eating these tamales. But I've asked them, like, I just bought some chips and they were new. And I was like, have you tried these before? And one guy was like, I haven't, somebody was eating 'em in front of me and I didn't get to try 'em yet. The, the other checkout lady was like, they're really good. And I was like, oh, cool. That's like at Costco, easy. You'll check out with something and the cashiers are always checking because there's so many products. Mm-hmm. And some of them will comment on whatever it is you're getting and they'll, you can just ask, have you had this before? They, they'll already comment that opens it up. They'll be like, these are amazing. And then like, their bag or boxer person will always be like, oh my God, I tried this. Mm-hmm. Sometimes I will go check out with things and they're like, where did you get these? I'm like, in your store. And they're like, well, what are these? And sometimes it'll be something that I regularly get and I really enjoy it. Mm-hmm. And I'll just tell them like, here's how you, and that's small talk. Mm-hmm. That's small talk. That's it. Easy. Done. Done. You just can't jump into the meaning of life level discussions on a first interaction. I like to think of small talk, like a common anchor. Like you need something, a foothold. Yeah. And if there's no stability or foundation from which to grow, you can't have those conversations. Yeah. I love that you said we aren't robots. No. Like there's just so many, so many weird things to talk about. There are so many weird things to talk about. And in your notes, I'm just gonna point out, I'm not gonna like have us go into it, but you did drop in, like your notes are pretty long in this section. And the whole thing is about Green Power Rangers in the US and Japan. And I was like, Megan, what are we talking about with this? And I was like, there's small talk for you. But she actually wrote it out. You did? Because I was trying to think of a question that got asked as a kid and it was, which color? And I was trying to remember which one mine was. Oh God, you crack me up. Sometimes. Our, our age difference, I'm just like, there were no power arrangers. Most, there were so many different, it was Teenage Mu Ninja Turtles. Oh yeah, I watched that too. Small talk is also how to establish value matching. Love. This point that you pulled out. Would you like to explain how value matching can bring about your fandom? Megan, you kind of brought it up already. I did. Yeah. So like when you brought up Costco or Trader Joe's, they have values that people align with. So you can, when you bring up certain things that you like, you know, if the other person likes it too, you know that there's this commonality between you. I went to Nedra Quiet Networking and the first icebreaker was what is, your Song of the summer? And it went around the room and it was like some classics, the top of the charts song of the summer. And I went, it's golden. From K-pop, demon hunters and two other women went. Yes. Yes. And I was like, okay, we can connect. And everybody else is like, I don't have kids. I'm like, I, I don't have kids. do you know how many people who don't have kids? We're nerding out of that. Right? Oh, it's so good. But it's still, that's the first thing people say is, I don't have kids, so I didn't watch this. Why are 30 and 40 year olds into K-pop demon hunters if they don't have kids? Because we're fun. Okay. Well, I, I could give, I could give you a TED talk on this right now. It's anime adjacent. It's manga adjacent. listen, after having worked in the animation industry, the number of adults who are like, but that's children's programming, they're boring. They're like, oh my gosh, they're so boring. They're, you're so boring. I can't talk, talk. You can't you? No, I can't be friends. No, I'm so glad we agree on that. So there's value smashing there. I instantly knew I can, I wanna meet these two people because they also were like, yes, all the songs. Yeah, let's go. I think if you can figure out the values that you have, the values that your business stands for, and then you can start to, you know, make that kind of persona of somebody you wanna meet. Yeah. And where's the Venn diagram? Where would they shop? What movies would they like? What books would they like? And it can also just be your personal ones that really have a deep seated, like your identity is kind of built on these things from generally from your childhood, we're getting to therapy territory. I mean, 'cause like Buffy, well the movie came out when I was quite young, but like the series was when I didn't have cable because it was not, I was not that young when that came out. But I didn't have cable when the series came out, so I didn't get to watch the series. I see. The series was high school through college and. I actually did not get into it in high school ' cause I was very busy being an overachieving Asian child with 1,000,001 extracurriculars. Mm-hmm. and I was also obsessed with the X-Files back then, but you know, you meet people in the dorm and everyone was talking about Buffy and then it also switched networks at the time. Yeah. and so there were reruns already playing and I caught up on the series and I think it was when it switched over to like the CW or something, it used to be on UPN. And it just, like, I don't, like they won an Emmy. the writing was so good. You can see me nerding out in this moment. Exactly. But you can see how much it means to you. Yes. And you went into media. I did. Went into media. and when, and you have the woo. Yes. And I have made friends over the years, through the love of Buffy. I cannot tell you how many times. How many times. And it's, it's wild. But that is a rabid fandom. Mm-hmm. If you're talking about fandoms. Mm-hmm. A rabid fandom. and it's pretty fantastic, how a fandom that you belong to can instantly make you friends with someone else. in business we need business friends because you've got the same like. you're basically going to a concert and you have about the same t-shirt on. They're little clues. Mm-hmm. I feel like there's little clues. My, my hot take on this, topic was that these little clues that we're talking about helps people know if you are safe for them mm-hmm. In the current geopolitical age that we are living in, which is a very real thing. We've talked about it on a few episodes in the podcast this season already. but, and you might think that something like pop culture doesn't matter, but you can use the Super Bowl with Bad Bunny as a great example mm-hmm. Where somebody who had respect for that show, even if they didn't listen to Bad Bunny, they're not into it. Personally, I am a huge fan of Latin music, so I was a big fan, but there was a lot of discourse that happened as a result, and it told you. Where somebody's values lie in relation to your, so even if you're like, I don't really listen to that, I don't really get into it, but you're like, oh, I've read a whole newsletter about it. You wrote a whole, it was great. and it gives people a chance to say, aha. Values matching. Yep. Therefore, I'm going to be safe with you because there are a lot of questions right now about does, is this community gonna support me having this, that, and the other about me that, yeah, I can't change, it's who I am. Or belief systems, which are not something you wear. I mean, unless you're wearing t-shirts and hats, this is not something that you, you wear. It's not like the color of your hair or something like that, you know? and so I really feel like the water cooler topics. Will tell you that because somebody who is a Buffy fan, going back to Buffy mm-hmm. Is a lot more likely to be, somebody who is either an ally or a member of the LGBT community. Mm-hmm. It was a huge show for that community. Yep. And, I think those things are just deeply important. I even love, like you were talking about for, for K-pop demon hunters. Like, if somebody can appreciate that, like there are so many green flags. Mm-hmm. So many green flags. And not used as an excuse, well, my kid liked it, but like, no, I genuinely the songs are on my playlist mm-hmm. For the gym kind of thing. I had a lot of people who are like, well, I've heard it because Yeah. And they use the kid as an excuse. I was like, are you just not being honest? You can be honest. It's okay to like it. Yeah. I wonder if people like that have trouble being fun in general. I think America has this weird thing, and that's why I always have trouble with the anime and the manga still, because I grew up in the age where, I mean, it was the equivalent of porn. You know? Like, you don't tell anybody that this is what you like. It's, it's, yeah, yeah, yeah. For some reason just blacklisted you. and so I think in America we, we have like a, you are over 17. You do not watch cartoons anymore. It is not a sign of like a, a neurotypical, you know, like a, yeah. A wealth well-formed brain adult. Like, we just don't, and it's like, but you're missing all the fun stuff. Do you know like. Japan has no problem with this. Korea has no problem watching this. We're the only ones being puritanical right now. Yeah, there is. And us not being, just not letting ourselves like what we like. Yeah. There's, there has been sort of like a downturn nose in the adult western communities culture around comic book collectors. Oh yeah. Comic books, animation. Mm-hmm. That it's for kids. Well after working for Disney and by association Pixar do Disney adults era. Oh God. Whole thing. My God. The rabbit fandom. Disney makes probably more money off. Well they would make more money off them.'cause they're adults with money. Yes. And they do. They really do actually. but also Disney fans have a certain culture to them. Mm-hmm. They have a certain love of certain things mm-hmm. In a very particular way. Mm-hmm. if you are not like Mo and you don't drop F-bombs every other word in your sentences, you're probably a Disney man. You know, like, which is hilarious that I actually worked for them, but then I left because I was like, I don't fit in here. Like, I don't want, no, yeah, it's, yeah. Mm-hmm. It doesn't fit for me either. my sense of humor is a little too dark for that. and there's so many other things I, but it's values matching, but it's values matching. And it's like, I love the medium, I love the creative process. I have favorite characters just like everybody else. I sing along with a song. And so you have a range in your personality. interests. Try to have interests, you know, so, so that you can be interesting. if you go real hard on being an Uber, fan of Disney or Manga and anime or whatever, it's like let yourself go there. You will find your people. I mean, yeah, so like Japan has a word for it, but it's got negative connotations. They are trying to take it back, but, otaku? it generally is associated with you don't leave your house because you're so into it. Well, I mean that would be like video game players. Yes. You know? Yeah. They're a video game, otaku. Yep. Yes. Yes. That's an interesting thing. Okay. That might not make a, the episode, but again, small talk, but small talk. Small talk. The final big note that we marked down was what if the whole conversation is small talk and is that bad? Yeah. I came up with this one 'cause I felt like. Someone would wonder this. And we both have had this happen where we've been to, we've had a chat with somebody in a networking event, and that was all that it was. And it kind of depends on, and did you connect at all? Yeah. If none of your shots landed, then I have, I have a totally different type. Okay. I mean, in my notes, it was like, no, it, it's not bad because, no, it's not bad. You never know how it might spark a connection later. Oh, completely. But also sometimes I can tell by the way we're chatting, this is not a fit. Yeah. out of. Compassion and consideration for someone. I will engage in small talk with you and it will remain in small talk because the other party is also not really able to take it outta small talk. But it might be. That's the further end of the spectrum, right? Yeah. The like weather, yeah. Sports, business. How's your day? Small talk. I mean my range of small talk is pretty fucking wide. Yes. So, okay. I mean you wanna talk hockey? I'll talk hockey with you. Yeah. And not just heated rivalry. Okay. But like real hockey. Do I have things to say about Olympic hockey at the moment? but there's like sometimes, ' cause yes, I do have a range too, but like you will end without exchanging info. Yes. You'll end it without Yes. Saying let's have a coffee chat. You will just. I'll just let it drift. Yeah. And and that's fine. And that's fine because you got your data. And if the other person really wanted to connect, they would ask. And if they're not able to connect, I don't believe that we're meant to connect. I don't believe so. I really feel like nobody ever said the small talk is bad. I'm just gonna keep saying, but also if you're in a really super busy room, which you and I have been in many of those mm-hmm. You're just not gonna have deep heart to hearts. And if it's a super busy room, it's also probably super busy loud, which means you probably only hearing every other word they're saying anyways. So you kind of can't have those super big conversations. And I just felt like when we were putting our notes together, like the thing that was getting under my skin was you just have to stop putting so much expectation on every conversation. And I do wonder if that's when people reject small talk, if. That's where it's coming from is like they want the deep conversation now, not later. And it's like, yeah, but you can't put that on that expectation on every interaction you have. No.'cause it generally takes a few. So like your first time you might just talk about hockey the next time you might talk about heat and rivalry and the next time you might be like, do you wanna go come onto the podcast? that's quite the segue. I know then do you wanna go to the romance bookstore with me? Didn't seem like the right leap to make, but it might be. Right. And you and I have seen how much our love of romance books and reading has brought us so much more community. while we have gone deep on conversations around different romance titles specifically, or authors or just, you know, aspects of the entire genre, we. frequently end up in small talk versions of those conversations. it sparked a lot of really good discussion with really interesting people. Well, you got booked to speak. I know. I got booked for a paid keynote to talk about romance fiction. And it started a small talk, started small talk. It did start a small talk. It did. It's a good filtering mechanism. Mm-hmm. And I would say like, the people who don't like small talk probably aren't. A deeper desire for a higher filter. And I'm like, guess what? That is your filter. Because my hot take for the end of the episode was just like an extension of the expectations people put down and, and it just felt like, I, I think sometimes that also dips into the desperation when you wanna jump over small talk. Like, I get it. you wanna make money, you wanna make a sale. You, you want there to be a deeper connection for a very specific reason, which is probably something along the lines of, I need to make some more money. For mine it was. Can you flip what most people see as the script and see small talk as valuable? Mm. So can you see it as like, can you be curious, can you investigate? it's also just necessary and you know, I kind of put like, think about it, like when you're on your first date with somebody, right? Like you're asking a lot of, it's a lot of lobbying back and forth. Do you read, what do you read? Do you go to the movies? What movies do you like? Do, are you into any sports? Like, oh my God, do you know what? I wonder what, okay, so I'm not on on any dating apps, but you know how some people are like on dating apps? Yes. And they're so burnt out. Mm-hmm. Because I don't know why anyone's on a dating app. All I look at when I see those is just like trash. Well, I follow the guy who makes the music song. Yeah. The songs out of the. Very bad conversations. Do you think if people, I mean, I know there's people who are, who are attached to other humans that they love, and so this would not apply to them. But for the singles in the, in the entrepreneurial field, that because they may be engaging in a lot of dating activity, which involves so much truly shitty small talk, truly shitty. But by the time they get to the business world, they're like, I cannot, in which case I'm like, I understand. I understand. They're expecting it to just from the song versions that I see. Yes. It's like too normal question, answer, and then it just is like train wreck. So there might be some trauma where they like, I don't. don't want, no, I don't wanna know where it's gonna go. The business coach of me would be like, so where are the priorities then? Because if you've prioritized your dating life over your business life, I don't know. think of a good first date with your like, book boyfriend. He's gonna be curious. I wanna, some b boyfriends would've stalked you and know everything already, but imagine it's the other type. I dunno that we're selling this very long right now, but the dating analogy is, is spot on though. because you come in not knowing anything, but you know, just a little bit. I'm having this aha moment right now though. Like, if. Small talk or water cooler chat and some other aspect of life has burnt you out. Maybe you just do too many dating apps, I don't know, but it's burnt you out or you work with people who aren't like you. Yes. Or I could see even with parents, do so many activities for your kids and you have to talk to people and all those other parents just wanna talk about their kids. And, and it's not your choice to necessarily always be in that room. Mm-hmm. Whether it's the PTA or whatever else. the kids' parents in your kids' class are who they are. And that's, and that, that's who's in the room. Yep. You don't get a choice in that room. Nope. And you know, if you have to engage in so much small talk in all these mm-hmm. Areas of life, whatever they might be, and it's burnt you out by the time you get over to your business sector and your networking. Yeah, you'd be, yeah. Completely worn out by the prospect of having to make more small talk. I completely understand that. And also it's like, once you're aware of it, now what are you gonna do to make it better? I think you and I have made a very compelling case, and I'm completely biased in this moment, but I think we have made a very compelling case. But you need small talk. And you need to be interesting damnit. And if you don't have hobbies, that's your first piece of homework is go try something. Take up underwater basket weaving. I, I don't know. And then shadow a trade drills guy. Or trade, just check checkout person. Yes. Or come to one of our events. Yeah. There's also that too. And you can chat us up or we'll chat you up. people like us, would literally hold space for somebody. Who just needs practice. Mm-hmm. Like you and I, you don't have to tell us you need practice. You could, but you and I have chatted with plenty of people where it's like, we're very clear that this person doesn't have as much hours logged as we do. Making small talk or getting to know people. are so many people who are very patient and compassionate and will hold that space and lead you through the conversation. Because you and I have had enough instances of meeting people who were really rough at the beginning, and then as they relaxed, became the coolest people. Yeah. And we love them dearly. That's a homework that's Go make small talk. That's it for today's episode of The Awkward Handshake. We record at Sasquatch Media Grounds in Vancouver, Washington. I'm Megan, co-founder of Fat Cap Design and creator of PDX Spellbound, and I'm Mary. Founder of Sasquatch Media Grounds and Sensible. Woo. You'll find links to everything we mentioned, guests, resources, and ways to connect with us in the show notes on your favorite podcast platform. That's also where you'll get updates on where we're headed next, and when we're inviting listeners like you to join us for guided networking in person and online. Don't be passive. Click the links. Pick better rooms. We'll see you there.