Build the Community You Want

What do you do when the room you need doesn’t exist?

You build it.

In this episode of The Awkward Handshake, Mary and Megan sit down with author, storyteller, and ghostwriter Jessie Kwak to talk about what it looks like to create the kind of community you wish you could find.

Jessie shares how she built a thriving writers’ community in Portland — one that started small, grew through trust and referrals, and now includes both a real-life backyard gathering and an active online Slack space. Along the way, she offers a thoughtful look at what makes communities work, why curated spaces matter, and how good people really do know other good people.

This conversation goes far beyond “start a Facebook group and hope for the best.”

It’s about intention.
It’s about trust.
And it’s about realizing that if the space you need isn’t out there yet… you may be the one meant to build it.

In this episode, we talk about:

• Why curated communities often feel safer and more useful
• How Jessie’s writers’ group evolved from an in-person meetup into a larger Slack community
• What it takes to maintain trust in both physical and online spaces
• Why strong communities grow best through referrals and real relationships
• The difference between shallow promotion and meaningful collaboration
• How collaboration often takes longer than people expect
• Why networking can lead to friendships first and opportunities later
• The hidden labor of being the “mother hen” of a community
• What happens when you can’t find the room you need

Our Guest

Jessie Kwak is an author, storyteller, and business book ghostwriter based in Portland, Oregon. She writes thriller novels, science fiction, and nonfiction, and helps other writers bring their books to life through coaching and ghostwriting. She also hosts a vibrant writing community in Portland that has grown into a larger Pacific Northwest writers network.

https://www.jessiekwak.com/

Why this episode matters

If you’ve been waiting for the perfect room, the perfect group, or the perfect invitation… this episode is your reminder that sometimes the strongest move is to stop waiting.

Build the thing.
Invite the good people.
Let it grow from there.

Keep in touch! 

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Transcript

0:00

This is The Awkward Handshake, a podcast about networking business and what really happens in the room. We're unpacking the good, the bad, and the awkward, so you can build better connections and get paid. Let's get into it. We have a super cool person on the podcast today. We finally got Jessie Kwak to come join us. Yes. I know you are excited because you are a writer and she is a writer. Mm-hmm. So you guys have writerly things in common? Yes. We're talking with Jessie because Jessie hosts a very niche community in this case for writers, and you might not think writers are super niche, but the way that Jessie runs a community, I would say, is pretty niche. We're gonna learn more about that. She has people come literally into her backyard once a month for gatherings. But one of the big reasons we had her on was just because we noticed that she was running an online discussion space with very little angst compared to so many people who seem to have a lot of angst about their slack spaces or their circle group or Facebook group or whatever. and so we wanted to hear it from her. She talks about it a little bit in this episode, I wonder like, as a writer, how exciting it was for you to have networked with somebody, made friends with her, and then now she gets to come on the pod. it was really fun. And you get to know. Somebody from all those different perspectives, because she also has this very business side to her. Yeah. Which, not that it's unusual, but like, it, it was kind of like, oh, you do both things. we can be like double friends, she's, she's very thoughtful, with everything that she does. And so, yeah, to our points about how long it takes. I think we met her last summer, I think it was. Oh, so it's like at least six months. It was like August or something. Yeah. So it's like six months, you know? Mm-hmm. To get to a point where you can do that collaboration, and to know somebody enough to really know what they're working on. Yep. Is really important. So, yeah. She's shown up multiple times for us. In multiple ways with the coffee parties or just communications. Mm-hmm. You've been to her writer's group. She and I have chatted mostly through email since the first meeting, and then in the studio for the coffee parties. I like that point that you're making, that it has been about half a year of knowing Jessie to get to the point to know like, yeah, we wanna collaborate, in essence, swap audiences, which she also talks about in the episode. Because she's come on the pod and part of that is she will also share her awesomeness with her audience because she talked about really cool things, being an author and running a community. Mm-hmm. If you don't know who Jessie is, our guest today is Jessie k Jessie is an author, storyteller, and business book ghost Writer, living in Portland, Oregon. When she's not writing, she can be found sewing, mountain biking, and exploring the Pacific Northwest and beyond. She is the author of Thriller novels, two series of space scoundrel sci-fi crime novels, and a handful of productivity books, including From Chaos to Creativity. And From Solo to Supported. Jessie was an amazing guest. Can't wait for everybody to hear more from her. So let's get into, it Jessie, welcome to the Awkward Handshake. We are so excited to have you here today. Thank you for having me on. I love this space. Do you wanna tell us more about the community you run? we would like to hear it straight from the person who actually owns the community.' Yeah. So I kind of inherited a writing group in a way, and I've grown it from there. So a little bit of history. It's basically, a group of fiction writers mostly in Portland and for, let's see, five or six years, no longer than that, maybe almost eight or 10 years, they have been meeting at my house. it started off kind of as a, a little bit of a more business oriented group. And it was pretty small. And eventually it was like, you know, just anybody who's a writer who wants to come and talk about writing. Or not about writing. You know, we don't do critiques. We don't share work, although people are welcome to if they want to. It's really just a social event. that was going on for a while, and then at the beginning of COVID when we couldn't meet in person anymore, I was like, well, let's start a Slack group. so now that's where the five years is. So like now, five years later, the Slack group is still going strong and it is expanded to be the Pacific Northwest Writer Slack group. And my favorite part of it is, yes, there's kind of just the communication around writing and how are people doing and why aren't my imaginary friends talking to me today? How are your imaginary friends doing? there's also channels for getting together and writing in person, and so there's a lot of just kind of this ad hoc community being created where people are like, Hey, I'm writing at Snacks Coffee shop at 10:00 AM this morning. Who wants to come hang out? So there's a little a channel for that for Portland and a channel for that for Seattle. There might even be other channels that people have made that I don't realize are there for other locations in the Pacific Northwest, but that's the overview of the group. Super cool. How many people are in it right now? I think there are around 200 people in the Slack channel and maybe a hundred or so on the email list where, where I send out like, Hey, we're meeting up this month. That's a lot of writers. Yeah. Was there already a Seattle one that you overthrew or Yeah. I didn't realize that Seattle was included. Yeah. Yeah. So basically, um, maybe about a year and a half ago. I had been at a different writing conference that's, it's called, uh, Northwest Con. It happens up in SeaTac, and I have so many friends. I'm originally, I grew up, I grew up in Yakima, but I lived in Seattle for 13 years, so I still have a lot of writer friends up there. There is a big, kind of greater Pacific Northwest writer community and everybody was like. How do you guys all know each other? It's like, oh, well we've got this slack. You, you know, you guys should be in the slack too. You're also fun. And so I came home from this conference and I changed the little icon used to be the Portland flag, and I changed it to the Cascadia flag and changed the name to the PNW Writers Water Cooler. And everyone's like. Whoa, what just happened? I'm like, we're opening it up guys. It's like a totally great example of inclusivity that's like not the usual inclusivity that we talked about. Yeah. Just expanded your territory, like doubled it overnight. You're like, oh, that's fine. Yeah, well, one of the things that had caught our attention as we had gotten to know you through all of our networking. Was that you have an online space, this Slack group, and then people also get together in person. And in our recent coffee networking parties that you had been to, we all discovered how many people don't want to maintain an online chat space. And we were like, well, we wanna talk to Jessie about this. So we're really curious what is that like? I think people who have community spaces. To me, it seems like they fall into a couple of camps. Like they kind of automatically assume they're supposed to offer something because there was sort of this formula that came out through COVID of like all the amenities you're supposed to give people when they're a member of a community. But then also there's, you know, this other aspect of, well, how do you manage that? It is a lot of work. I see you. Totally. That is so much work to do. But, but how do you maintain order and you know, what do you do? Especially during, let's say, interesting times like we're in currently where people say interesting things sometimes and you know, we have to kind of manage that. I have heard people talk about how much work it is to manage an online community. And I have to say that my experience is that it is very little work for me. And I think the reason for that is that it was a group of friends who knew each other in person, who then expanded out concentrically with, oh, this person's cool, they should be in this group, this person's cool, they should be in. So it's been a very organic growth, and very like word of mouth and referral and personal invitation. I don't know everybody in there anymore because they're friends of friends or people that oh, I met so and so when I was writing at a coffee shop and they were also writing and they seemed cool. So I invited them in and you're like, okay, well, I mean, they seemed cool to you, so they're probably cool. so I have kind of a code of conduct that I've written up that every once in a while I remember to go in there and post it and it's basically like, be nice to each other. Be protective of each other. We are a community. This is a safe place to be. Make it a safe place to be. Otherwise we're gonna have to have a conversation. we have not had anyone with any kind of predatory behavior. I'm always kind of keeping an eye out for that. And, uh, and because I know so many people in the group, I'm just like, Hey, if you have a problem with anybody, if you notice anything weird, please come talk to me and we'll figure it out. a lot of people have kind of stepped up. To moderate as well. just sort of naturally like people are like, Hey, I want an accountability channel, so I'm gonna start and moderate an accountability channel. It's like, awesome, great. There's a Monday night write-in that happens every week and same two or three people are always posting and they're like, okay, this is when the write-ins going. I'm like, great. I have no idea what you guys are doing over there. Awesome. Enjoy. That's very cool. What would, what advice would you give to people who are trying to manage, grow, or start a community and they're feeling nervous about that? Because I feel like right now people are nervous about who's in their space. Yeah. I would say set some really strong ground rules around conversation and what kinds of conversation are appropriate for that space. we did start a political conversation channel. I'm very clear, you know, if you wanna talk politics, if you want to freak out about the world, you can go do it in that channel. Mm-hmm. Anyone who wants to participate in those kind of kind of conversations can go hang out in that channel. Nobody else has to subscribe to that. So if you wanna just come and hang out and talk about writing, then you don't have to see that aspect of it. But if you need somebody to like bounce ideas off or say, Hey, there's a protest, let's all go do this. You can go hang out in that channel. so making space for that I think is really helpful. like I said, it's a pretty small group, so we haven't had that much, like conversations just get really out of hand or anything like that. You know, there's a couple times that I've had to just be like, let's be, let's be calm. Let's, let's remember that we're all human here. but again, because it's all been kind of invitation. By invitation of people who are already in the group. People are pretty similar minded too, so we don't have a lot of butting heads over hot button issues. I wonder if that kind of invite also sets a tone where it's like, you know, you're in somebody else's house. You didn't pay to get in the house. You are there. The cool mom basically let you in. Jessie and she's like, you can do whatever you want, but if you're gonna go play politics, like that's where the outside, like in the backyard where you know, you're not bugging anybody else. But you can do cool. You can do bake in the kitchen, you can go this up the room upstairs. But like I do kind of wonder if that invitation sets it.'cause you used to tell me about like when Quinn exploded. Yes. And the chat went from like it changed. It changed. Nice to like, whoa. Yeah, that was an interesting dumpster fire. But you see that in every community. Yeah. That one was just like extremely noticeable.'cause they exploded kind of overnight. But I think you bring up something interesting because they do sit in your backyard, Jessie, literally, they literally come to my house and sit in my backyard. Yes. Firstly, how do you feel about that? And also secondly, I think there's something interesting about Because it feels more like a personal invitation than that. People are a little, they like remember to be human again because you kind of can't go over to someone's house. I mean, I'm sure there's some asshole somewhere who does, but it like, it's hard, kind of hard to go to someone's house and just be a b But if you're like at a cafe or a third space, it changes. Right? Yeah. Yeah. And that is, I mean, that's something that I am really. Considering, especially as the community grows, because your backyard is not big. A Yes. A my backyard's not big. And b like, I mean, again, we've had nobody who's been a problem. but I don't know everyone who shows up to my house. Yeah. And initially when I, so I, I mentioned, I think that I inherited this, this list of writers. And I had been attending this kind of writer meetup for a while and the the guy was moving and wanted somebody else to take it over. And so when I sent out that first email, it was to maybe like 40, 50 people. And I had like 10 people show up at my house that I was like, Hey, I don't know who you are, but nice to meet you. You must be on Will's list. And they were all great. And now. I mean, a few months ago somebody showed up and I was like, Hey, nice to meet you. I'm Jessie, welcome to my backyard. He's like, oh yeah, so and so I met him at a coffee shop and he said there was this write in and oh man, I can't, who was it? What was this guy's name? I can't remember. And I was like, you don't, he didn't know you well enough that you know his name and he gave you my address. So after that I did like send out an email and I was like, guys, if you're going to invite somebody to my house, yeah. Please bring them with you. Yeah. Come like you're absolutely free to invite other writers that you think are awesome, but remember that you are vouching for them and for my personal safety. And as this community gets bigger and as more and more people are in this group that I don't know personally, it probably won't always be at my house. I guess I'll just say that, but I'm, I'm not sure where that tipping point is. Do you have aspirations to grow it? If your backyard's already full, maybe your tipping point's coming sooner than you think. Yeah, I mean, I don't particularly have aspirations to grow it. Like I just really wanted to create a space where people could get together and meet each other. And I guess what I'd love to see is maybe somebody else is like, Hey, I wanna host a social over in this area, or up in Seattle, or, I'd love to see it kind of take on that organic. Growth of, yeah. Here are more like the Monday night write in that I mentioned. Here are more ways that we can get together I don't know, I might not always live in Portland, but I don't want this to die. I wanted to create the container and then see what it did. And right now there's a little Petri dish of people who are creating their own community within it. I guess because it is labor still. I mean, I'm not speaking for you, but like, it, it can get tiring to have all these people. And I've watched it with, other groups that we've been a part of and it's like when everybody's like, well, when's mom gonna set the date? When's mom gonna like put it on the calendar and tell me to come? And, and you're like, you all have calendars. Like you all have a space. You too. You know? And they're like, yeah, but I kinda like it when you just do it. Again, not to say that that's what you're thinking, but just to put that out there for anybody who is like, I know what that, yeah, I know what that's like. It's how much do you feel like mom over your group? Not that much, but I do feel. A, a bit of responsibility and kind of mother headness. we have had a kind of a, a discussion with several of the long-term members of the group lately, about this community. And it was actually sparked by that, coffee chat with you guys, where I was like, wow, thanks for being awesome you guys. Nobody wanted an online community. You guys are rad. one person, he was like. I feel like this group is like an extension of your house in a way where I feel very comfortable coming in, going and grabbing whatever I need from the fridge. Cracking open a beer. But still, I like, I'm gonna ask you if I'm gonna start a channel or if I'm gonna do it. And I'm like, okay. even though I didn't really intend to be the mother hen of this group, people look at me that way. you did just take their privileges away though. I did. Yes. Because you didn't know that you had given them all the privileges. I all this story was so great. I left so hard when you discovered. Yeah. I, I realized at one point that like, people basically had universal admin privileges and I was like, all right, at some point I'm gonna calm that down. And so I did, Recently I made everybody just like normal users, all 200 plus people or whatever. And I, I picked a couple people who had already stepped up as they're the ones that are like, if somebody new enters, they're just like, oh, hey, by the way, there's other channels and here's the Monday night writing channel. Oh, that's great. I'm like, oh great, I don't have to do anything.'cause Eric already said hi or Gregory already said hi. so I picked a couple people that already were doing some of that Moderator work and gave them, moderator privileges. And I was just like, Hey, by the way, I reduced everyone's privileges except for yours. no obligation, but that's just a reflection of the work that you're already doing. and it wasn't like anything bad happen, it was just like they shouldn't have had those privileges. Exactly. I don't think that you're ever alone. I'm sure there's somebody out there listening who's like, I should go check. I should go look. Privileges. The main thing that I, I realized everybody had that I didn't love was, the ability to delete channels, which not great, and the ability to create private channels, which I realized even I can't see what the private channels are and probably this is not going on, but I didn't wanna have. Find out that there was like some sort of secret Nazi private channel on ice slack. I was like, how horrifying would that be? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don't think anyone there on there would've done anything untoward with a private channel, but I was like, I don't want people making channels that I can, I don't know about. Yeah. I think it's really smart because it's naturally going to grow. Anything, one of the coolest things that I'm hearing is you talk about your group is how much everything is. One good person knows another good person and are, it's like networking built in, it's all through referral and word of mouth. And it's not like you've posted this for who wants to join a group. It's. One good writer knows another good writer, they should probably bring them with them to your house. As we now know, instead of just giving out your address, especially to someone that you just met in a coffee shop and whose name you don't know that that, that's a little problematic also. Sounds like a very dude thing to do. Didn't even occur to me. Right. It doesn't occur. Right. I know, right? Yeah. but I do think that that's super special that it's writers telling other writers. Yeah, it's a special group. it's a really, a really great group. I know that networking is also a part of what you do, not just to find more people for this group, but for your, own business. And I know that you go to quite a few conferences and things like that, and Mary and I were just kind of curious how is that different then? Self-publishing is such a thing now. And so, when you go to these conferences, for you as ghost writer, underwriter, are you trying to network as almost as two different. do you have like side A and side B and you have to figure out which one to sw. Flip on and flip off as you meet people. do you like two business cards or how do you find your leads and how do you make your money? That's the question. There we go. Yes. I actually have three different business cards. because I recently switched. I, I write science fiction and I've written science fiction for years, and then I've recently switched to start writing thrillers. So I now have my sci-fi writer card and my thriller writer card. Depending on if I meet somebody, they're like, Ooh, I love blah, blah, blah. I'm like, then I will give you that card. They both go to the exact same website. One's just like spooky, and one is has spaceships, you know? Do you find it makes a difference to give them different cards when you're networking? I think for somebody who I'm meeting because they're another writer or because they're a reader who's interested in it, I think it helps them remember who I am better. Like if we had this whole conversation about how much you like sci-fi and my favorite book is Dune and all of this stuff, and I hand you a card that's like, Thriller set in the Pacific Northwest, you'll be like, who is this person that I met? Right. You're gonna look at it later. Yeah. So that's kind, that's kind of why I did it. so it's that more than like a dog whistle of oh, it's the trope. Yeah. It's the colors that are on all of my other Yeah. Side by books and my collection. So, because you come back and you have like a stack of cards and you're like, who is that person? I don't read thrillers. Who's this thriller writer that I've picked up? Throw it in the garbage. But you know, if you were like, that's really interesting. Oh right, right, right. That's the sci-fi writer. I was interested in her. Oh, I love that. Well, I mean, it's so interesting because, you know, to Megan's point, self-publishing is an entire industry. You don't have to write fiction to self-publish. There's plenty of non-fiction. You have a new non-fiction client you were telling us about before we hit record. And because of the publishing industry has been through some difficult times, it's really up to the authors now to, find their leads and do this networking and get out there. And both of us were just so curious how you see that show up when you're at conferences especially. But I mean, I guess it could also show up inside of community groups, like the one that you run, like how much business gets done, or is it really just people trying to get. I guess visibility or name recognition for the creative output that you have. Like, do you have any thoughts on that? I think most writing conferences, you're there to network with other writers and that's where they may be your ideal reader as well. They may pick up your book as well, but you're not trying to sell your book to anybody at a writer's conference. You're just trying to say. Hey, I write this, you write that, let's work together. Let's do some email swaps, or, I'd love to share your book with my readers. Things like that. I think most of that networking, what you're looking for is collaboration and partnership with other people who are doing something similar to you. What would that be for you? so in my case. Well, I mentioned that I have three business cards. So I've got the sci-fi and the thriller. And then the third business card is for my story rebel website where I do book coaching, story coaching and then ghost writing, mostly all in non-fiction. I don't help anybody with their fiction books 'cause they're also so different. Nonfiction is definitely my jam when it comes to, those things. but for me. When I go to these events, I am a looking for other writers who write in similar genres to me so that I can be like, cool, let's do a newsletter swap. Let's keep in touch. I wanna hear how you're finding writers. And B, I'm looking for potential clients. So potential nonfiction writers who are memoir writers, who have a great story to tell, need a little bit of help getting it across the finish line. So I'm always kind of. I got my ear to the ground for both of those things. And so how I show up is like, I guess I just show up as me. And then when you meet somebody and you get to know them, you're like, oh, you do the, okay, here's a way that we could connect, or here's a way that we could connect. yeah, just really focusing on getting to know people instead of networking. I guess it, but it is networking. I think it's cool that you, you have like these three different areas because it's almost like you're able to roll with the punches more. You're like, are you like this? Hold on, let me pull this card outta my pocket. Or you need two cards? Wonderful. Like, let me go get both of them for you. I think a lot of people don't think that widely. and so I think you're in this unique place where you are like, you can. make more connections in, in like a wider, and so I feel like you kind of get to rock in and are like, I've got them and I've got them and I've I think that's cool. I think thinking a little bit more broadly, especially just I guess more quickly on that business card conversation, like I meet a lot of writers that hand me their business card and it's just their book. And I'm like, you are so much more than your book and you know this, this is great. This is something great to have at your table. If you're a tabling and people are like, oh, what was this? I wanna know your book. but when you come to a networking event, like, tell me about you. Yeah. Who are you, what are you doing? Don't tell me about your book. We, we wholeheartedly agree. Megan and I had tried running a networking event where we were trying to get people to give these PechaKucha 20 slides, 20 seconds each each. It's a Japanese game, and we were like, surely people wanna talk about more than just who I, what I sell and who I offer it to. It was so hard to get people just to talk about so hard. Something that they love or something kind of weird or funny that makes you memorable. It makes you memorable. I was like, I want a five minute presentation on someone's rock collection. Like bring it on. And everybody's like, no. I mean, I just talk about my business. And I was like, Okay. Well I'm gonna talk about animate now for five minutes, so I hope all of you want to know about that. That was when we realized we're like, everyone is not as weird as we're. I would've done something weird with you guys. Yeah, we didn't know you yet at this time. Yeah, I, I love the point that you make because in like the business entrepreneurial community, where I frequent the most book as a business card is a whole model, a whole formula. Yeah, mad respect for it, but people will, they'll just like hand you their book and it's like, it's like trying to ask me to marry you at the coffee date. Like, I need a little warmup here. Yeah. I mean, as, as a nonfiction ghost writer who, I mean. Your book is, your business card is a thing that I also tell people, like it's not literally don't hand it to people. It's not literally your business card. It means, yeah, it means that it opens these doors for you. It doesn't mean that you have to force it on everybody you meet. So don't print out a hundred copies and bring it to a networking event. Please. Yes. It becomes the whole personality. And you work so hard. I know you work so hard and you just gave it away. Like Vistaprint is like 20 cents per per business card and you gave all away a whole book. Yeah. Like they try to boost their, um, Amazon review rankings and all the things. There's, there's that would, this is a whole other episode. I'm not gonna take us there. It's really in my brain right now, you describing like your three different business cards. I have two different business cards and I always feel really weird having two different business, but now I feel suddenly so much less weird about it because I do still carry two brands in my business world. Yeah. Well, and you are the only one from that event that I think we even stayed in touch with. Well, 'cause I literally invited you to my backyard. Yeah. And then you came, yeah. Not in my backyard. I did because I was like, oh, you also write fantasy. Perfect. I know because I saw you, you were chatting with Mary and we are both blonde. And you had an eye patch. And I was like, and I'm blind in one eye and I'm like, oh my God. It's like a different version of me. I need to go meet them. And then you were like, I write type. I'm like, oh my God. It's like a different vegan. Love it. And then I tried to talk with somebody else afterward 'cause she had like a really cute outfit on, oh, I got snubbed so hard. And then I was like, I'm gonna go back and talk with Jessie some more because she seems cool. And Yeah, you just, yeah, you did. You invited me to your backyard and I came and I was like, this is crazy. There's just like, there was a puppy, there was school. Oh yeah. Every once in a while there's a puppy. It's so horrible. Not my puppy. One of, one of the members of the group lives in the neighborhood and everyone, she brings her puppy. you also told, because I, I think I opened up to you and said like. I'm also blind in one eye in the first meeting.'cause I was like, your iPad is so cool.'cause I had a history of like, I might need one of those. And you were like, I made it. And I was like, oh my God. she's so cool. Like okay, we need to be friends with her. And you're like, everybody's. I'm like, of course she made it.'cause you writes ifi and instantly Yeah. I was like, I'm gonna go to her house. This is gonna be neat. I think this underscores the value of. enough time in a literal physical room and not just only online so that you can connect and have a moment to have a moment. Yeah.'cause we met later. I, I think I reached out to you, invited you to River Maiden. Yeah. And we chatted more, we copy later and then we like swapped eye trauma stories And then we talked business and we're like, yeah. There might be something. Yeah, there might be ways to collaborate and like Uh, keep helping each other. but I do love that out of an event like that, there were a lot of people in the room that I think it's a success to go out and network if you end up with at least one person. Like we now know Jessie, at least one person where it's a really good high quality contact Because good people know other good people. There's no way that a good person can't help you, even if they're have nothing to do with the industry that you're doing. this story at this table is the thing that so many people are seeking and don't realize like how much patience you have to have for it. And like we've divulged, like all our numbers from last year, they were insane. we're not doing that again this year. But also just like the connections that have come out of it and the way we're able to take those connections to higher levels, because you take time to develop the relationship. Like it's not, here's my book, it's a business card, let's, suddenly make millions of dollars. You know, like it, it just, that's just not the way that the system works in life. Yeah. No, I agree. And I think My philosophy, I guess, when I'm walking into a networking event is, I am hoping to have, let's say, 10 conversations, maybe five of those conversations. I'm gonna connect with that person later on LinkedIn or whatever, and just kind of casually follow them. Hopefully at least one of these people I'm gonna wanna have coffee with afterwards. rarely am I gonna have coffee with him because. They might be an ideal client or they might have a job for me or whatever. It's normally like, oh my gosh, you seem so cool. That's awesome. Let's go grab coffee. at another one of the magnet events, I was leaving and a woman came up and like commented on my jacket. And she looked cool. She had like, awesome, like asymmetrical hair and piercings or whatever. And we chatted for a few minutes in the parking lot and she's like, you know, I run this women's only open mic if you ever wanna come. And I was like, yeah, and you seem amazing. Like let's go grab coffee. And so we did. And I've been to her open mic several times and she's just rad. Oh cool. But it was literally as we were walking out, I love that you don't get those serendipitous moments. F by only staying at home and not that Zoom events are bad, but. I do think it's harder to make those deeper connections, which is why we love that you go to conferences because I am also a conference nut and this is gonna be a conference year for me again, and there is something magical that happens when you travel to the place and you go there. Mm-hmm. And you're mixing and mingling with other people who have also taken time to get a plane ticket and pack a bag and go, and you're just all playing at this level that you don't get in another environment for however many days you're there. And you're taking time away from your real life to focus on this one aspect of your business or your life. And that is just, that's really powerful.' cause you can just be like, that's why I, you know, every once in a while I meet people who've come to a conference, like with their whole family and they're like, oh, I can't go for dinner, or I can't do any of this extracurricular stuff.'cause I'm like. You, but that's where all the magic is happening. Why did you bring your husband? Why did you come leave them at home? I totally agree. Yeah. Actually, my husband and I are going to a conference for the first time together this year. Oh, we're going to the to Kits Craft and Commerce conference in Boise. They have a great speaker lineup this year. I think you're gonna have a good time. Yeah, so he, he also kind of does some social media and marketing stuff for his job. And when I was, I was like, I'm going to this conference. And he was like, that sounds really valuable for me too. So I got him a ticket and we'll see how it goes. But I'm a little bit nervous'cause normally I am the like. know, let's go out, let's do things. Let's, and now I'm gonna have to check. You can split. I know, right? You could, you could divide and conquer. Mm-hmm. Because they'll have meetups in like before, during, after, after hours. Mm-hmm. And also, um, before the conference begins. And then anyone who hangs out late. it's not unusual that there's cool stuff happening at the same time. I'm mostly worried that now he's gonna know how late I stay out at some of these conferences. We're gonna be like, you really came to bed at one? I'm like, yeah, because normally like. I was in bed at nine 30 last night, like, that's me normally. And then I go to a conference and I'm just like, Woohoo. Let's, isn't that weird? You go to a conference and you're like, suddenly you're up at Dawn, you're like college again. Yeah, you are. And then you're like, oh, I'll have coffee in the morning. It'll be fine. And you just keep going. But you know, you're on adrenaline and you're there and it's temporary and you can sleep on the airplane. Well, and I'd be curious too, like I go to a few things with my husband and sometimes I like, just like push him into the deep end and then I just sit on the side and like eat snacks and like, yeah, get outta that corner. I will say so another kind of dynamic thing of my husband, he's very extroverted, he's very outgoing. Oh, he'll be fine. Yeah. No, so he's, he's like the center of attention in any conversation he is in. Just 'cause he kind of naturally takes up that space. And sometimes that's really nice when I don't feel like when I'm, when I'm introverting and I don't feel like, mm-hmm. Conversating and I can just be like, oh, Rob's got it. but one of the reasons I like going to events like this by myself is'cause I don't have that crutch. that is a dynamic that I'm also kind of thinking about. It's like, okay, I know that I have the tendency to sit back and let Rob take over the conversation, but that can't happen, not when I am. Going in with my own agenda. Yeah. To meet my own people. So, yeah. You know, that's something that we've, that we have talked about, we've had conversations about and Oh, that's so good though that you had that talk. Yeah. So, we'll, we'll face it when it comes, but you know, I think five years ago maybe I just would've like, let him take over. Yeah. And not known how to have that conversation. We are both aware of, How we do things and this is what I need outta this event. Well, Jessie, would you like to tell us how people can keep in touch with you and we'll also put it in the show notes? Yeah. Um, Jessie quack.com is probably the best place. J-E-S-S-I-E-K-W-A-K, um, that has links out to everything else, including my ghostwriting book, coaching, things like that. You can find my sci-fi and my thrillers there. And if you are a Pacific Northwest writer who wants in on this weird slack group, like shoot me an email. Let's chat. So if you're a 10 out of 10 person, which I assume only 10 out of 10 people are listening to this podcast. Ah, thank you. That was amazing. I loved talking with Jessie. She's so calm and grounded, and. Terribly pragmatic for being so incredibly creative, which I think is such a super skill. Yeah. That she can write sci-fi. Yeah. And then also nonfiction. Mm-hmm. You know, ghost Write for people. It's, it's two different sides of the brain, and you write incredibly pragmatic and thoughtful answers. We threw. What felt like some curve ball questions and she just went with it and had some great insights. I think it was a great example of somebody who has exercised her networking muscles and is not like, what are these legs? This is my first day at the gym. Like, she's like, no, I've done this before. Yeah. I think she really embraced, um, that she has all these different aspects to herself. Yes. That we all do. Yes. But that she's very comfortable just kind of switching between them. Well, we were chatting for a while after we stopped recording as well, which I kind of wish I'd kept the recording button going for some of it because she was telling us about her novels and she said the words, space, pirates, and I was like, sold. You said the magic words. I know what I'm gonna be reading this weekend. Well, you and I have some sort of thoughts to digest after the episode and when we chatted. We were like, what are the things that really popped out to us? And the first one was this question of what does collaboration look like to you? Because it came up during the episode, and I think you and I know after hearing some feedback from the episodes that have already gone out and looking at just the metrics of what's been performing episode to episode, that collaboration really does seem to be a theme that people are seeking, even if they don't know how to ask for it. And I wonder what your feeling was coming out of the conversation with Jessie and what does collaboration look like to you? I'll be honest, sometimes I don't know what it's gonna look like, but I know that the person is really interesting and I'm drawn to them and I know that. There's gonna be something down the line that we can do, and it's kind of what we did with Jessie. We're like, she's really awesome. We both like her. She shows up, she's, you know, insightful and every and, and kind and everything, and we just kind of had to wait and she. What we came up with. Oh, I like that. The notion of patience needed in collaboration. Yeah. Like I think sometimes we, in our modern era, maybe because tech moves so fast on the human side, we try to make things happen prematurely before they're ready. And you're right with Jessie, like if we had been trying to publish podcast episodes way sooner, it would've been premature. I do a lot of what, what she does, which is like, back in the day I used to be like a virtual assistant for business owners, for business coaches, and I would have to do their weekly roundup emails. I don't even know if a lot of people do this anymore, but the weekly, like roundup, the weekly blog post of all these like five favorite things, five favorite businesses. Yeah. That used to be a great way to. Kind of cross promote, but it was like the low hanging fruit of collaboration. And I feel like that's kind of died because people, my perception is that people are kind of more fearful of, oh, but if I tell my audience about that person, then they'll just go to them for that thing instead of like, your audience will actually like you more. If you share something that they're gonna like because they're like, oh, you actually understand I am multifaceted, or I also need these things. I can't get it all from you. Well, I think it's less the fearful part, but more that collaboration now looks different. I think way back in the day when we were all still blogging to share your five favorite things of the week was a form of collaboration. Mm-hmm. Now it is just content and there's so much content. That it's really hard to sift through things. And so collaboration, I think is naturally deepened. Yeah. And then also, like it's easier to podcast now or it's easier to put out other materials. So before it may have been sufficient to be like, here's this cool person name, Jessie, on my Friday follow backs. Yeah. You know, and now it's like, no, like, come on the podcast, let's have an actual discussion. and so when I look at it, I, I think like collaboration. For the modern current era, and it could change again, it probably will continue to change, is by inherently deeper because you have to cut through the noise. And I think too, like that's how you really know that people actually know each other because it's so easy to be like, here's a cool link. It's, it's like the, the old marketing ploy when you are selling an affiliate thing and you're like, my friend is doing this really cool webinar and like yeah. Spoiler. They're not friends. They've never met. They're just like in this giant pool of affiliates selling things. But I like that you brought that up.'cause I wonder how many people. Still think that a collaboration is less deep and they're, they think they're collaborating more than they are. Well, I mean, I just said it, so Yeah, I did. Let's forget. Well, to me it's the lowest hanging fruit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. But, but I also would have emailed the person, told them I was gonna do it. maybe that's the context I already have. And so, because I know you and I see you all the time and we hang out, I wasn't just like grabbing random things, but I would've like told them like, I have the spot and I'd really like to showcase you and I would put you here. And so I do think there are still people, so that I think if, if you like, you know, I only have one spoon left, you know, like this is what you could do. but there's better ways to leverage it. But I, I do agree that. Better collaborations are the deeper ones. Yeah. But I think a lot of people, I think we build our businesses in such a way where we're very insulated and so we don't actually know what a collaboration would. Look like because we're like, but I already do it all. What do I need? Another person for a good one. Like a really good one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I, there was a point in the episode where Jessie was talking about how she goes to conferences and does newsletter swaps with people and we didn't have time on the episode to go get into it 'cause we could spend an entire episode talking Yeah. About what a newsletter swap is and a good one at that. Yeah. I think what you're describing is along those lines. Yeah. Of if you've never, okay. It's kind of like if you've never had anything better than a McDonald's hamburger, you don't know what, like a really fucking good like Wagyu beef hamburger is, sorry to anybody who doesn't eat meat. I'm clearly hungry for dinner right now, and I think that. Maybe there's space in there for you and me to maybe do some exploration for the audience before the season is up and to figure out what that looks like. I mean, like you and I have figured out like a particularly great collaboration to the point where we started a podcast together. Yes. but did we know that when we first met, like, no, this is like two years in the making. No, no. Yeah. And it takes, it takes time. Patience that I think you win. I think you win this round. It's patience. I didn't know there were points, but now there's points. Our second point that we also pulled out. Was all about community trust, mostly because I think both of us are still amazed that Jessie allows people into her backyard and she's like, I don't know you, but you come into the backyard and that's, that's an incredible amount of trust. And because I have seen people in the online space get weirded out by people just showing up in their like online slack chat room or whatever. Mm-hmm. They're using, they get kind of cagey about it. They get kind of weird about it. And here's a person who's literally letting people know her home address and come over. patience. Right. That takes time to build that trust. Yeah. With that group, unless you have the guy who just gave out, then you know, you've reached, you've reached the point that threshold of like, it is now too big. Yeah. I'm actually really curious as somebody who occasionally goes like, what, what the next phase will look like, because I think you will reach a, a tipping point where. There's just not enough room in the physically, not enough room. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I wonder the same thing. Well, you and I kind of hit a bit of that tipping point because we've been hosting our coffee parties in the studio here at Sasquatch Media Grounds, because it was like, who? Mary's got keys to a space. We don't have to ask anybody, you know? Yeah. And that's been fantastic. But there is literally a physical limitation. There's only so many people that. Honestly will fit in this space after a certain point. And people have been very respectful in here, just like Jessie has experienced with people being largely respectful of her home. Yeah. And we kind of talked, touched on that. Like I, I do think there's something about an invite only Yes. Space. Yes. That does make people realize. They need to be like a little kid in the museum. Like, I need to be on my best behavior here because I might get kicked out. Whereas if you pay to enter a space or you just sign out or you just show up Yeah. And just crash it like you, you act very differently. I find that 'cause we provide refreshments when people come to our space. Mm-hmm. And everyone's always so good about like. Putting their trash in the Yeah. Trash bin and like sometimes even offering to help mm-hmm. Clean up or whatever. I've seen some people pick up after other people. Yep. Which you don't see when you go to those really big events. Like we went to one recently, with AI Portland. They had a big happy hour and it was in the lobby of the AC hotel in Portland. Mm-hmm. there were refreshments, but people just sort of like left their shit around. Yeah.'cause it was a hotel lobby. Yes. They have janitorial stuff went up, but like the garbage can is right there in the corner. Yeah. It is not that hard. And yet we saw plenty of things just sort of left around. I thought that was fascinating. Yeah. The difference, it's kind of the difference between like when you go into somebody's house, like. Taking off the shoes, not taking off the shoes, you know? Yeah. Well I'm Asian so the shoes come off all the time. There, there is no question about that. I always love when people are like, but you're wearing your hiking boots. I'm like, then you fucking unlace them and take your shoes off. Yep. Take off your shoes. Yeah. Yeah. That, that. That is an interesting thing, and you and I had wondered by having these invite-only curated spaces, like would people show up differently? And it sounds like for Jessie, because it is essentially similar, there's a lot more people, obviously. Mm-hmm. But it sounds like people do behave considerably better and more intentionally. Like they just show up with more, I don't know, more, more self-awareness and more presence. Yep. the only issue that she didn't talk about, but I heard her mention it after the last one was like, they stayed, they stayed longer than she was expecting. That's one of the problems. Well, we've had that in here too, in the studio where we're like, I We're like, well, they're having a really good time. Like, eat more, please take some, take some leftovers. But yeah, we do get stragglers. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. All right. Well, the, the last big takeaway is on the power of referrals. This concept of good people, knowing other good people keeps coming up again and again. I mean, like part of this, you know, theme that we have pulled out is really like a duh moment, like. Yes, if you're doing good networking, you should be getting good referrals. But in this case, Jessie's running a community. And then also she gets fans of her work that she writes and the fiction that she writes. And it's the same thing like even in our friend groups where we've passed around novels and we're like, this was so good. Like you should totally read it. And but good people always know other good people and, and I think like good people are finding each other. I'm gonna go on a limb and say that yeah, that I think we're finding each other 'cause we're seeking each other out and people who maybe play lower stakes games and networking want that, but I've noticed that because these are curated spaces that. honestly, they don't get the invite because they're just not around as often. Which kind of goes back to some of our earlier episodes you and I talked about with like, you actually have to show up and people have to know you and see you and know that you're around and invite you. Yeah. But then also you kind of have to go beyond the event. I think a lot of people who low stakes network, Don't follow that person on LinkedIn and congratulate them on the big win. And so they never get to that point of, oh, I'd really like to do something with you, because they've just flit it off to the next and the next and the next. Yeah. Well, I think also the point about patience from earlier holds true because the world is busy. Life is very busy. And to expect someone to immediately follow up. It is not always an automatic given, but a good person will get back to you. You and I have been experiencing this recently. Yeah. Um, like I had an unexpected message show up today in my LinkedIn and I was like, oh, this person that I've been flagging down had apparently talked to me with another person and put me in touch with them, and I really needed that connection. I didn't realize that was happening in the background, but then like this message showed up. That just was like, oh my goodness. Like I feel so much better about this connection, knowing that, it makes me realize like maybe that original referral connection is a lot busier than I was giving credit. I mean, I should be more patient myself because my life is been insanely busy and there's all kinds of emails sitting in my inbox that have been lower priority that I do need to get back to. And it doesn't mean that those connections aren't. Like a non-priority is just that I've got revenue generating activities that require me to put that first. And, and so I, I am, I am like, it has me wondering, thinking about timelines, like do you think timelines have changed for people following up? Yeah. You've been experiencing that too, though? I've been experiencing it a lot. I've had a lot of, I've had a lot of people like, yeah. Pushing things off. I will say also though, I've, I've had a lot of people who I, I can't tell if it's have a hard time just being honest. oh, say more words. Yeah. So when you're like, oh, I'd really like to have a coffee date mm-hmm. With you, it could be virtual or IRL, like, I am willing to work around your schedule, like me recognizing like somebody's really busy, easy, like. I can work around your schedule and then being like, great, let me check my calendar. And then nothing. And you check back again like a week later and nothing, you check back again and you know that they're online. I know exactly what, what you're talking about right now, you know that they're online, but there's no responses. And I would, I've even like switched up the platform. I'm guessing that your like dms are really busy. Here's an email. There's nothing and it's like you can just say, this isn't quite my thing. Or I'm really busy right now. Could we come back in a few months or, I, I don't really see how we could do something together, so I'm gonna pass on this. That's fine. That's within your right. But to kind of like keep leading somebody on, you know, is like, at that point you're just like. I don't really, I don't know if I wanna work with you now. Yeah. The non-response is very frustrating. Yeah. I can also completely relate to the being snowed in in all my message boxes. Yeah. And not currently having a live assistant to answer all the messages for me. I do sympathize with that, but also, and will I check back in two more months? Probably, yeah, I will. Yeah. But also like, I mean, well the system's brain in me is like, okay, but like from an operations perspective, are you at least setting aside like a catchup day? Because I've been doing that and yeah, I haven't been able to like get through the whole inbox in one fell swoop. It's had to be in chunks. And then of course while I get through chunks, more pours in. But like it's a whole problem. I mean, I'm also gonna say, if you're on your phone checking your dms, generally your calendar also lives on your phone. Do you know how many people do not keep their calendar up? What? I know the look on your face. This is the one time I wish we were recording video Right now. The look on your face. I'm the same. I, I mean, I understand. If you have kids then they, there's probably one in the fridge. You would be surprised. You would be surprised. Okay. Well now I need to have more. Grace and patience after having coached in other people's masterminds over the years. This is one of the questions 'cause they usually bring me in for systems and will complain about productivity problems. Those are always top like conversation topics. People want hot seats on productivity. They want hot seats on things like calendar management, time management. That's always a really big one. And I always end up asking people, I'm like, okay, what calendar are you using? Show it to me now. And they're like, oh, I have to log in. I'm like, what do you mean you have to log in? Because on my, every, every browser I have, the calendar lives in the very first tab. Yep. It never gets collapsed. It never gets collapsed. It's always there. It's right there and top left. I need to see it. It's on my phone. It's one of the permanent widgets parked in the bottom bar. Oh my God. But there are people who do not live like this, Megan. They do not live like this. Okay. I'll have more patience. Um, a lot of the times the people that you meet, you dunno where the collab will take you. And sometimes like how you found out, the person that you meet isn't the person that you're gonna work with, but they're going to, if you get to know them well enough, they will be on the lookout for you and will refer. You, and it could be unexpected. People know weird people. Yeah. The circles are smaller than we think. You know, the overlapping kind of web of someone's network. Yeah. So I think even if you don't know how you're going to, in quotes, collaborate with somebody, if you meet somebody at a networking event that's just really fun and awesome, I would just become friends with them. Yeah. I mean, isn't that really what happen? It's just a collaboration too. What? Yeah. Like your best networking contacts are I would hope so. Essentially friends, there's a spectrum of friendship. Yes. And you might not be in each other's backyards, you know, that's cracking a, cracking a beer on a Sunday. But, but yeah. But they, when you see them, there's a familiarity. You're happy to see them. You've kept up with what they're doing. Yes. You know what you're doing, what each other's been up to. And, and yeah, there's, there's a spectrum of friendship there. Mm-hmm. And I think things come unexpectedly here, here. I mean, the universe is cheeky. Yes. And also the world is very chaotic right now in a lot of ways. But in our business spaces, I feel like a lot of people are catching up in a lot of ways. And then business is just moving along very fast. I would like to say I'm not chaotic, but I think we both know that I'm just like a walking chaos team in these days. It's terrible. Like what happened to me? I don't know. I don't know. And, and I'm seeing that in other people. Then I've seen other people slow down and I can see the frustration in them. Where I'm like, yeah, when you have more time on your hands than you're used to, or there's just more breathing room in your days and your weeks, it can be easy to forget that there are people who have like completely run out of bandwidth and Yep. Yeah, luckily you have, which it helps if you network and have, you know, multiple, multiple streams, multiple irons in the fire. What a concept. Well, before we close out the episode, you and I always love to finish with some hot takes and, um, you and I both pulled some interesting things. My, my main thing was. I couldn't get that outta my head how Jessie has been using her three different business cards. Mm-hmm. Because I've been giving myself a lot of shit for having two business cards right now because I've got the sensible woo one and then I've got my Sasquatch Media grounds one and, and I'm like, I don't know. What do I give them? And it was so helpful to hear her talk through that. Yeah. There was something very healing to that for me. And it really made me think of the different genres that you have in your business. I wonder how many other people have this issue and are trying to smush things together or don't know how to navigate it the way I did, and are not really trying to smush it together, but just don't know how to navigate it. I think it speaks. A lot to that multihyphenate multi-passionate trend that, I hate those terms in our entrepreneurial lexicon, but, but they're accurate and you know, there's a lot of us who do more than one thing or who are in transition between things. Mm-hmm. And that to have more than one card in your, in your wallet or your bag or whatever, is more than appropriate. And I love the way that she is so clear on how she uses it. Yep. It was really helpful. I hadn't considered it from that perspective. It was super cool. Well, your, your hot take is like the mic drop for the end of the episode. Do you wanna tell us what it is? Yeah, well, 'cause you had said it to me actually before we, we were, well before Jessie even came, um, in relation to something that I'm building, but then Jessie said it too, and it, it was really. It was nice to hear somebody else who kind of done the same thing. And it's, if you can't find the community that you're looking for, then you may as well build it. And, you know, I, I've done that multiple times in my business career when I did like, um, freelancers union, uh, that was me building the whole community around that you and I had hustle hard side faster. Mm-hmm. Um, way back in the day too with like, I had a fan-based business, like it's just constantly being like. I can't find, I, I can't be the only one. There has to be more, let me put up the bat signal. Yeah. And sometimes, you know, like Jessie said, you gotta be like the mother hen.'cause like everybody else is kind of, they're just too busy and so they're not gonna build it. So you may as well build it and then you have more control. Do you think that there are those of us in this world and we, we manage to find each other because we're alike and we're the builders, and there are people who, for whatever the circumstance is, either they don't have the time, they don't have the motivation, or also maybe they don't have the confidence, and so they're not going to be the builder, at least not right now. And so we build things. I wonder if they don't even consider it an option. Ooh. Ooh. That's juicy. I know. Oh, because when I was asked for freelancers union, I wanted to attend one of the meetings. Yeah. And they said, well, Portland doesn't have a chapter. Do you wanna build one? And I was like, yeah, sure. And they're like, really? And I was like, yeah, that's fine. Just send me the dets. Like the number of times I have built things in the same way. Right? Because somebody's just like, well, there isn't one. Do you wanna do it? And you're just like. Well, not necessarily, but like if it doesn't, if this is the only way that's gonna go, like okay. Because you're like, but I'm looking for the people. Yeah, but I want what I want. So, but why wouldn't you build that? But when I chatted with my husband, he was like, of course you did. Like of course you did. Like, I'm not even surprised that you said yes to this. But I wonder if other people are just like, well, it's not there, so therefore it's just ends not there. End. Yeah. That breaks my heart. I know. We may have to ask people. Oh, well we have, we have our, um, at the time of this recording, we have our first happy hour version of our networking parties this week on Friday. Yeah. So maybe that'll be a thing while we're mixing and mingling around the room and just casually ask people. Yeah. How many communities have you started? Yeah. I mean, because the, like that happy hour is happening because. You and I became friends and we were like, you're not finding, I'm not finding, well, let's just make it, let's, let's invite the people to be just got our, we made, like, let's start a notion board. It was done in like an hour, you know, we're like, we're inviting people. So it was, and my husband was like, of course you did. I left you alone with Mary for like a day team. Jeff and I came back and you two were like huffing pixie sticks and we're like, we're gonna make this thing. Yeah, he's more the motherhead. He is, he's, he's like the quiet force in the room. Love it. That's it for today's episode of The Awkward Handshake. We record at Sasquatch Media Grounds in Vancouver, Washington. I'm Megan, co-founder of Fat Cap Design and creator of PDX Spellbound, and I'm Mary. Founder of Sasquatch Media Grounds and Sensible. Woo. You'll find links to everything we mentioned, guests, resources, and ways to connect with us in the show notes on your favorite podcast platform. That's also where you'll get updates on where we're headed next, and when we're inviting listeners like you to join us for guided networking in person and online. Don't be passive. Click the links. Pick better rooms. We'll see you there.