Your Network Is Forever

What if networking isn’t something you turn on when you need a job…
 but something you build for the rest of your life?

In this episode of The Awkward Handshake, we sit down with Dinesh Mathew, a business operations executive turned consultant, to talk about what actually makes someone a great networker and why it matters more now than ever.

This conversation goes beyond surface-level advice. We get into the realities of today’s job market, how networking has changed, and why the people who succeed aren’t always the loudest in the room… they’re the ones paying attention.

Dinesh shares how his background in market research shaped his approach to networking, why listening is an underrated superpower, and how thinking about your relationships like a portfolio can completely change how you show up.

If you’ve ever thought, “I’ll network when I need to…”
This episode might change your mind.

In this episode, we talk about:

•  Why networking is a forever skill, not a short-term tactic 
•  What’s really happening in today’s job market (and why it feels harder) 
•  The concept of a “warm network” — and why you can’t let it go cold 
•  How listening (not talking) makes you a better networker 
•  Why asking better questions changes everything 
•  What a “portfolio approach” to networking actually looks like 
•  The difference between online, local, and travel-based networking 
•  Why relationships (not resumes) are driving opportunities right now 

Meet the Guest

Dinesh Mathew

Business operations executive, consultant, and expert facilitator with a background in market research, focus groups, and organizational strategy.

Dinesh specializes in helping companies improve operations, align leadership, and build systems that actually support growth—while bringing a deeply human approach to networking and relationship-building.

Connect with Dinesh:

• Website
• LinkedIn

Favorite Takeaway

You don’t build a network when you need it.
 You build it so it’s there when life inevitably shifts.

Because in today’s world…
 your network isn’t optional.

It’s infrastructure.

Keep in touch! 

Follow Megan Eckman

• Fat Cap Design
• PDX Spellbound

Follow Mary Williams

• Sasquatch Media Grounds
• Sensible Woo

Transcript

0:00

This is The Awkward Handshake, a podcast about networking business and what really happens in the room. We're unpacking the good, the bad, and the awkward, so you can build better connections and get paid. Let's get into it. Today we have one of our favorite people on the podcast. You and I met Dinesh. Six months ago. I think we kind of determined that in the course of talking with him even he was like, wait, when was that? Yeah. But ever since we met Dinesh, we have absolutely loved having him in our networks. He is one of the best people, like a good fucking person. He's one of the best people that we have met in a lot of our networking, and as we all know, we've done a lot of networking. Megan? Yes. as soon as we met him, he went pretty high up the tier list. he's a generous networker. Clearly has some serious people skills in his tool belt. and I think all of us hoped to meet somebody like Dinesh when we're networking. And so we wanted to have him on the pod because. A, we wanted to talk to a good person, but also B, you can tell that he has some really interesting insights and he definitely delivered in the conversation. we could tell right away when we met him, he networked in a little different way than the average person that you meet in a room. it was quite clear. one of the interesting things that comes up in this episode is the talk about the job market. And I know that in a lot of our episodes we focus a lot on the entrepreneurs who are networking. Mm-hmm. But there's also a lot of people who are seeking jobs, including entrepreneurs whose industries are going through rough moments or like heavily disrupted by ai, for example. And so people are looking for any kind of opportunity. And something that really popped out to you and me was how much he talked about how networking is a forever skill, that your network is forever. That you're really building this to be something that is always hot and always ready and it's just not something that you turn your back on. And I love that framing for this episode. Yeah.'cause I, it makes it seem less, I guess, arduous or I only have to do this for a little bit of time. It really is a life skill. gone are the days where you could, I mean, I, I love watching the older generations be like, I just took my resume into a company and I handed it to the, the CEO when I got hired. And it's like, oh, good. Great for you, boomer. Yeah. It doesn't work like that. And you don't just like circle the job listing in the classifieds in the paper anymore. No. There are different ways to get jobs. There are. Secret markets. Oh, totally. Yeah. it is all who you know. It is who champions you. I think we're in an era where there is no job security for no one. Oh, hell no. There's no job security. don't think anybody gets an easy break anymore. It, it's very clear that people skills are perhaps the new premium skill and that. The best time to start, reigniting your network if it's been cold and flatlined is now, but it's gonna take time. And Dinesh really breaks that down in a lot of different ways in this episode. the other theme that has come up a lot is the art of listening. We both felt like it was important to call these themes out before someone heads into hearing the discussion so that they go in ready and prepared. So you pull out the gems that are in it. For listening and for, keeping your network alive. Let's introduce our guest today. we have Dinesh Matthew, who is a market researcher turned senior business operations executive, who has worked across industries consumer and B2B from consumer products to hardware technology. Across his career, he has helped businesses of all sizes reduce tactical exhaustion. Evolve unsteady operations processes and address accountability gaps and siloed decision making that gets in the way of scale and growth. Through his work, Dinesh has kept leadership teams aligned on what matters most and tapped AI to drive more efficient operations, resulting in stronger margins, healthier teams, and improved revenue performance. He has also focused on improving feedback loops and in doing so, is passionate about networking and win-win relationships. That bio from Dinesh really does sum up Dinesh. That is no fluff right there. Dinesh, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast. Oh, it's great to be here. Love to talk about networking. We were so excited to have you on, because when Megan and I first met you, we were like. This Dinesh guy is a really good networker. he's really nice, he's really fun, and he knows things. I'm glad I portray that, that ambiance. when we were putting our notes together, the three of us for the episode, a theme has quickly shown up already, which is the art of listening, and I really think that that encapsulates a lot of the things that are on all of our minds do you wanna tell us a little bit about your background? Because you have a background with focus groups and facilitation and listening is where a lot of this theme came out of. Yeah. So before my current career, I was in market research market intelligence, so did a lot of focus groups as part of that in all kinds of settings. And the big thing with facilitating focus groups, moderating focus groups is you are supposed to talk the least. So a successful focus group is where the people that you have paid to be there paid for their time, they're talking 90% of the time and you're talking 10% of the time. So that training over many years taught me how important it is, and it's something I carry through to networking in terms of you know, listening, first, coming in with the questions, knowing what your questions are, and then really using those questions to stimulate. The person you're talking with or the group you're talking with, to have them give you their answers. Because really the focus is on them, not on you. That is amazing. Do you have any wild stories that you can tell us from focus groups? Because anything really weird ever happens? Oh, I'm sure there have been weird things that have happened. I don't know if I have any specific stories, but part of facilitating a focus group and. Making sure people are able to talk is managing often the dynamics of the group. So facilitating isn't just questions and answers, it's also, hey, this person is taking a lot of the time and speaking a lot, and that person is not speaking much. So it's just being able to manage that. So I've had plenty of experiences where I've had to quiet somebody down. Or where there is almost arguments that are starting to happen within the group and moving past that and you know, hey, everybody's answers are important and so it's that kind of facilitation and, managing some of those group dynamics between people that don't know each other, because none of these people, most of the groups I did nobody knew. People didn't know each other. Sometimes we would actually be in homes and doing. Ethnographies, which is what it, what it was called, where you'd be talking to a family or a couple, but that was the minority of times. Usually it's a group of strangers, so you don't really know what the dynamics are gonna be like. I mean, there are some ways you're supposed to screen people, so you make sure everybody's wanting to talk or not talk too much. But as you know, when you are sending somebody questions. It's kind of hard to ensure that everybody's gonna play by the rules. So it's uh, kind of facilitating. So tho those are probably the craziest stories. It's just somebody going off, tangent and having to wheel them in, or really having to quell some dynamics going on that are causing some issues. Well, they've never seen that in networking before. Well, I think when we, we first met you, I dunno about you, Mary, but I, could tell right away that you kind of approached the whole thing a little bit differently and when you were sending in like your emails to get you on the podcast here, like you mentioned the listening and my brain kind of went back to our first interaction and I was like, that's right. And it was because you were actively listening and like so many people who were like, oh yeah, yeah, that sounds good. Let me tell you about my thing now. And you asked a lot of questions of both Mary and I and you were actually like, you pulled out a notebook and you were like taking notes and I was like, oh my God, This man was taking notes in this networking. I will say, like I can get the sense of some people listening to this would be like, okay, but if I listen 90% of the time, and I've heard the same thing you have like the best sales call is one where you hardly talk, right? You just let that person tell you. Right. All the problems people love to feel listened to, but I can see people listening to this pop ass going, but then how do they know what I do? is that networking or am I just like, Mary, you and I go around and sometimes we just are the person that everyone dumps everything on. I put on my priest collar. You've got the face that says, please tell me all your problems. it doesn't seem to be an issue for you. Yeah, that's a, that's a, a good, really good question. I think for me. It comes down to the questions. if you're asking the right questions the discussion that you're stimulating are on some of the things that are of interest to you to me, to the person who is, you know, I guess asking the questions. I've heard this from others too. It's really about the questions. So if you have the right questions, you're gonna have that discussion A lot of it is learning and for me, and I think, you know, that was one of the original what we started with is being curious, asking questions, and listening to me. Really what it's about is learning. In order to learn, you need to let the other person talk. Or the other people talk to learn. If you know all the answers, then why, why are you even out? Who are you talking to? No, I'm remembering the first time we met you too. Any, and I now that you're telling us more about, your background, I think it makes so much sense the way that we all ended up talking together, because Megan and I at that event were genuinely. Hugging the wall. We were, and I think you recognize that in us. We were inside. We were literally, everyone was outside. So this cafe on the Vancouver waterfront and everyone was outside. It was a nice day and I was totally using my breakfast sandwich as an excuse to stay inside, but it was, honestly, it was a sausage fest outside. It was just a bunch of tech bros. And they were not welcoming and we were just, it was very closed off already. It was very closed off. And so, and then we ended up kind of talking with a couple other people inside, it just organically formed. Yeah. And that was a great conversation, but the conversation was wrapping up and then you arrived we were still hugging the inside of the wall. And it was a very facilitator thing of you to do, to be like, so you haven't been saying much? Would you like to tell me more? And now I'm realizing like, oh my goodness, you used your forces for good. That's right. That was masterful. Right, right, right. Well, I remember. Walking into that. Event or that coffee event, and I look lost too. I think you all probably saw that in my eyes, I didn't even know who was part of the event, who wasn't, you know, it wasn't very well marked off and Oh, yeah. The host wasn't there that day. Right? Yeah. Right. So I feel like you both took me in just as much as I, think I looked lost. You looked welcoming to me. So I walked over and, then realized you were part of it the event and then. From there, it was easy to talk to you both. Well then you said the magic words for us, and you told us where he had driven from. Oh yeah. And we were like, you drove over the bridge, and we were like, we shall be friends. Oh yeah. That's right. Which was one, another one of the topics that we had also pulled out for today's episode, which is the effort of, making time and effort to get in your car and go to a place. I think in terms of the metro region that we all live in here, Megan and I are sort of like on the northern end, and you're essentially more or less southern end, and we're not in the middle. None. None of us here are in the middle, and so we go to things and we've seen you in town at other events and so like there's something I think to be said when you meet other people, you know that they have put in the same kind of sweat equity of going out. Mm-hmm. I know. It just, it sweetens the connection. well, when I met you all, I was early in my in-person networking Path, because it had been a while since I'd done in-person networking.' cause I had recently transitioned out of the large enterprise tech company that I was at. And the events that I would go to, it's different when you're doing events for someone else for another company. And kind of how you're representing yourself and asking questions versus when you're doing it for your own self. that was a new experience for me when I hadn't had in many years. And so I think I realized that in order for me to just get to know the local. Business community and the, and the people in the community. And, I needed to represent, I needed to be in several different places. part of it is maybe taking a little bit of a portfolio approach to networking. And I think you all, you both talked about that in some of your prior podcasts and, thinking about it from the standpoint of. who's gonna be there and the types of conversations you're gonna have. And for me, networking. If you're truly wanting to learn and learn comprehensively, you need to look at it in terms of a diversity of networking and a portfolio approach. And to me, one aspect of that diversity, that portfolio is where it is. You know, if you're always in your backyard, you're probably gonna see the same people over, over again. You're gonna hear the same kinds of things from those same people. But if you're stretching it out, you're gonna meet a whole new group of people and just widen your perspective on whatever it is you're wanting to learn or wanting to share, or I love this so much. I don't think anyone else has used words like this so far, but I love the idea of a portfolio approach. We know what it's like to say balance your investment portfolio and you don't put all your stocks in one basket. You have to balance it out, and that's such a great way to describe networking activities. Yes, you do have to go to different places. Put that on a t-shirt. I think of it too, just even in person and online, I know that's been another topic that you've Yeah. Had in some of your recent podcasts is, an online community. So that's also an important place to network. It's a different way, yeah. Of networking. But I don't think you can always only be online. I think you do have to be in person, and you both do such a great job of really facilitating those kinds of events in very effective ways. I don't know if, just being in person is also just the right approach. Right? Right. You need to have a balance. it's a different way of networking in those two environments. Yeah. I would add travel. Conferencing and convention and all that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, because if you think about virtual networking, you can span time zones, countries, all kinds mm-hmm. With virtual or if you travel and you go somewhere. I know we were talking just a little while ago. You, you both are going to New York and there's gonna be a whole host of different types of people. You're gonna be there, right? A lot. It should be really good. Yeah. Megan and I have been talking about this and we haven't really processed it yet on an episode, but I was telling her that I mean, I'm a conference fan to begin with. I, I just like them, but. I think one of the reasons that I do like them ever since we've been processing our networking journeys has been kinda like you were talking about, like a local portfolio of networking, different neighborhoods, different areas, different industry groups. When you travel to a conference, there is a whole other level of sweat equity than just setting aside an extra half hour to an hour to be in your car. Yeah. Like you have to buy a ticket, you have to get on a plane, you have to book a hotel, like there are logistics involved and then you gotta show up. You can't hide out in your hotel a whole time and you have to do the thing. And so the people who show up might also be just as uncomfortable or scared or tired or whatever, but they're like, I committed to being here. And there's just a different level of connection making that happens. And it's like not all those connections are winners. But there's a lot less sifting feeling than you have in a local networking scene. Yeah. And I don't know if, I mean, I know that in your corporate, your career, you probably traveled a lot too. I'm wondering if you've had the similar experience. I think one of the things too, when you travel to events like that. You're right. First of all, the bar of entry is higher, so the people that are there are passing that bar, so they are going to be more invested. So that's one thing. And then the second thing that I was just thinking about, Mary, when you were just talking about, you're gonna be there morning, day, and night. Is that. The possibilities of networking just expand too. So it's not even just two hours anymore. Or 'cause nobody's going unless maybe some people are local. That's always possible. But for those that travel, okay, well if we can't meet up during the day, let's meet up for dinner. Let's meet up for breakfast. people aren't going home for different things. Everybody's there for those three days. So it's a very concentrated amount of just. Lots of opportunities to talk and meet that you wouldn't get at a, at a two hour, three hour event. If you had your choice, what would, how would you rank them for you? Like what are your favorites Are you going by, which does he like the best or what best output? Both. Are they the same? Is it the same? Yeah, this isn't, and I like that angle because it's, is it the same?'cause sometimes you really like things, but the output isn't the same as something where it's like, I don't like it as much. Maybe it's harder, so I don't like it as much. Yeah. Or maybe they do match. I don't know. You know what's interesting? I think probably the most bang for my buck are the in-person events that are travel. So those are probably, I would guess I'd put at the top of the list. The thing is that I wouldn't be able to do tons of those.'cause they're also tiring. You're so tiring. They're so tiring ing. You know, I know we were talking, you know, one of your other episodes was about introvert, you know, being a networker as an introvert. Yes. And I wouldn't call myself an extrovert. I'm on, I'm on the spectrum. so I can do it for a couple days, and then I need time to detox. so I'd say those in-person events are definitely, maybe at the top of the list, but it's like, that's a couple times a year. Now, if I looked at the output, which I love and looked also at, What's maybe not as big a bang, but I can do many more of those than I think it's maybe some of the local, more couple of hour type events. But I'd say the virtual events are also pretty cool. So I also would add those on to the list, you know, so maybe it's the, it's the live events in person travel to at the top. And then in person, even local kind of in there too. But I think those virtual events, especially if there's a bar of entry and people are really there and showing up, there's a lot of things you can, you can network and learn from each other, just even in the chats, you know, while there's a, there's a presentation going on here, the chat is where, and I think that's what a lot of people don't, they don't know how to do it. And so they just show up, watch it. Well, you know what I'm realizing as you're describing this. The thing that sets those top ranking things apart is facilitation. And so like a really good online event. Yeah. We've all been to good ones and bad ones. And the good ones have good facilitation. They have structure and facilitation. And the same thing's true of our local in person events too. Like sometimes we go to some because we know the group or the people has more of a social feel. You don't need as much structure. Because the friendship sort of carries it. But well, the one that we all met at had very little facilitation and structure. It was really hard. It was hard to do. The output was low, I would say. Well, we got Dinesh. I was gonna say, I, I met the two of you. So there were a couple other people I met there. I was like, okay. I met some good people back. It wasn't long, but, yeah. Yeah. But also Megan and I haven't been back since. yeah, and I haven't been back to one of them either. Oh, that's a good point. Oh, that's a good point. yeah, I'm wondering, because when you think about the travel conferences and whatnot, when you talk talk about facilitation and structure. I mean, you have a conference schedule, you have plans that you, you're walking into something that has been thought out. You didn't buy a ticket and fly across the country for. Just like a giant room with people just like trying to find each other, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, and so I'm wondering if that is actually the benchmark that we're really thinking about when we're thinking about what events are worth it. people like us meet each other. Yeah. Well, and one of the things that just popped in my mind too with those events is usually you're trying to connect with people before you even go. It might be people maybe you've met at that event before or elsewhere, or. doing a LinkedIn post And saying, Hey, I'm gonna be at this event. Is anybody gonna be there? So often when I'm going to events like that, before I even get there, a couple people I'm gonna meet up with. then you build on that too. So there's almost that pre-work, Or that preview on who's there So you're going into the event already, kind of with a running start of networking and I think also at least I also go in knowing. That I am going to have a couple weeks of follow up after the event. Mm-hmm. But when I do a, local event or even a virtual one, virtual ones are interesting because I think you can get so much of that work done in the chat, interestingly enough. Mm-hmm. So it kind of takes the end labor off a little. But on our in-person events in town. don't know that I have quite the same concentration of follow ups that I do when I do conferencing. Hmm. it was interesting when you were talking about facilitating virtual events. The one, the best ones that I've been at, they've got the breakout rooms. so the chat is one thing, and that's definitely valuable. I often find sometimes I have to be the one pushing it. Like, Hey, let's, use the chat, or I'll put up some comments and then all of a sudden the chat right. Kind of grows. Right, exactly. Sometimes the chat is quiet. I love it when it's not, but I find that and I remember you all did a great job of that when I came to one of your events here, you're networking events, thank you. And you were facilitating and you there was times where everybody just opened then you had kind of these focus sessions, right? That just popped in my mind just now is, and I think some of the best virtual events from a networking standpoint are when they've on purpose had some breakout rooms and, you know, random people. Yeah. Not people, you know. Yeah. And, but it's all about a topic and it's not even, the topic isn't the important thing. It's, having something to talk about. And then that's where I've gotten some of my best follow up contacts is when there's those, those breakout rooms and where you have some dedicated time to talk to each other versus, Just the chat or everybody's just listening to one person talk. I love where this conversation has gone. Like we knew it was gonna be a little loosey goosey with you, but we were like, if there's anyone, we could just have a good conversation with this ine. Yeah. Yeah. But so when we met you, you had just, sort of bounced out of your corporate life, congratulations. Mm-hmm. And you're like, I'm consulting now. How do you feel networking has helped you get leads or even clients? Like, what's it done for you in the last Has it been six months since we've been more than that? Well, yeah. For me it's been since August 1st. So I think I met you all soon after that. You did? I wanna say it was in the fall. September. May, yeah. Yeah. It seemed early to me at least. So it's been about half a year since we've known you. what has happened in your networking in that time Dine? I feel like everywhere that I've turned. I've, hired a couple of consultant agencies, when I say consultant agencies, agencies that help consultants build business. And also a lot of networking to hear other people are doing it, listening to your podcast. And I feel like the need for networking is as big today and I'll, I'll just make a broad statement. It's not even just about here in Portland. It's everywhere. so I'm gonna bring out some of my market research. Do it be nerdy. Nerdy, exactly. That's where, you know this, all this stuff. But you're just looking at trends in the workplace. I think in the, in the workplace, and this is especially for people that are, have a certain level of expertise, maybe a certain level of senior experience, executive experience, whatever you call it, you know, a certain level of expertise and they are subject matter experts, I don't know if it's, you know, it's probably some combination of ai, some combination of. everything, things are much more virtual. The competition now for what used to be maybe an easier to find, if you wanted to be full-time, you could be full-time. You know, the choice I think has gone away somewhat from the worker, from the executive, the subject matter expert, and gone more to. the people who are looking for the work. Right, right. The employers, if you will. And so what that's created is it's, it's a bit of a wild west. And so in a workplace situation, whether it's, whether you're working for someone full-time or not, I think the fact that you are probably gonna to look out for yourself much more. Than four or five years ago, 10 years ago, or 15 years ago. In today's workplace environment, I think everyone is an entrepreneur in some ways and really has to look out for themself. the, the days and years of, a company really being loyal to an employee or, and that doesn't have to be a full-time company. It could also be, someone staying loyal to, a consultant or whatever you call it. I think that long-term nature of that employee-employer relationship has shifted and it's much more a fractional piece. And I think AI has a part to that. I think the virtual workplace, you know, people now from all over the country, all over the world now can compete for the same jobs. And so because of that sort of wild west scenario. The things I've heard and seen is that the way you're finding work today, where you're having to look out for yourself is by networking. It's all about who you know. So it's not about the skills you have, it's not about a resume, it's not even about your past. It's about, what am I doing today and what am I gonna do tomorrow? You know, what, what's, what's, what am I doing today? What, what can I deliver going forward? And so in that space, networking is so huge. And that's, that's what I've been finding for my own journey. So now I'm going back to the question. Yeah. And so, I've been building my networking chops and, doing a lot of the things that we've been talking about and that you've had on your, uh, some of your other podcasts as well. And I think for myself, this is the first time I've had my own thing, my own firm, person of one. not only am I kind of learning what it is to be an entrepreneur and to deer and hustling, I think it's just really building those skills of networking and realizing that, I think you all talked about it in some of your prior podcasts as well. It's like, it's not the first conversation. It's gonna be the third or fourth, Yeah. Or maybe something more than that. So how are you gonna get to that third or fourth conversation? I've been experiencing that in terms of a couple of clients that I've got. But even the pipeline, it's like how do you build, continue to build that pipeline sometimes it's even partners, other people along the ride with you. So it's not even that you're networking for your own clients, it's maybe a client that could come through, someone else that's a fellow traveler. So, you know, just that whole space now, how important networking is to drive the work you wanna do. I think is as important today as it's ever been. It's probably gonna just grow in importance. Good relationships. Take time. Well, Megan, you had found in some of the data, I know we've talked about it on previous episodes that. The timeline for B2B contracts especially and all of us have done B2B. Yeah. I mean, I've got a B2B proposal out right now as we're recording this and I'm like, oh God, how long is it gonna take them to, to, circle back? It increased by 25% year on year. it's anywhere from three to 18 months. And it went from taking five people to say yes to you, like in one organization. Right. At least all those people have to be on board from the. Accounting to CEO to whatever. it went from five to seven. so many people. And so it's like how much do you have to do to give them the power to say yes, and also to convince Karen and Irene and like everyone else to also go, yes, we really need Danesh and here's why. It felt like you didn't have to do that before. You could just be like, here's my one page. Yeah. Don't you want me? Yeah. And now it's like, okay, so I built you this entire step by step thing that you can all hand out to each other. I'll get on the phone and chat with you about it some more. You know, like, what do I need to do? We got stalled here. How do I get installed? But I think everything that you're saying I've had to watch it firsthand in my own house. cause when my husband and I moved up here, Portland was very different than the Bay and oddly enough, it felt much more closed. It was very hard to like crack into the art scene. Everybody already knew everybody we are at friend capacity, we don't need anymore. And so, after he landed a job he was like, I think I need a network in case this happens again.'cause he knew this is how you get a job now. And he was like looking at his LinkedIn and he's like, I don't have anyone, you know, like, what are we gonna do? And I was like, yeah, this is a problem. We're gonna have to build this like as fast as possible, I guess. We gotta get out there, you know, and meet people. But there are whole courses. My husband just listened to one where that is the way to get a job where You can interview people on LinkedIn. Kinda like market research basically. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. They have the job that you want. Or is the company that you wanna work at? I'd love to learn more about like, what it is to work there. The approach my husband's doing right now is basically, you, you pick a company that you've done your research in and you can propose your services. it's a question, is there a room for you to hire me to do this? Here's kind of my presentation. I think there's a need in this company, or you could bring me on as a consultant. Mm-hmm. And it's much cheaper to the company to bring you on as a consultant. Right. Yeah. I have a lot of friends in like cybersecurity who are like, you don't need me full time. there's a position open, I've seen it, and I'm actually gonna tell you, you don't need this full time person, but you could hire me as a consultant and here's my price. Yeah. And it will save you X amount of money. it's such a different way to get. A job. You said something in Jeff's story though that I think is really important and I think you're touching on it, Dinesh and it, the human connection part, which was how many people, and I really wanna know what you're seeing Dinesh too.'cause Megan and I know what we've seen, but I wanna know what you see'cause you network the way we do. How many of the people that we're all bumping into. Are honestly suffering from a cold and expired network and they need it. They need an active one now. But you don't just suddenly build a network. It takes time to build relationships. So when your job hunting or looking for clients or whatever, if it has been forever in an age since you have communicated with anybody. Or put on your people skills or done the sweat equity of getting in your car and sitting through rush hour traffic to go to the happy hour, and then you're like walking into the room expecting magic to happen out of nowhere. I'm wondering how many people like, yeah, you have a LinkedIn profile, but you've done shit with it for years, and now you're like, oh shit. I'm wondering how many of that we're bumping into when we're not working. One of the things that made me think of, I mentioned that I've engaged with a couple of job consultants, you know, in terms of how do you navigate the, this environment. a very recent one had talked about the fact that the skills you're building, that she's building with, with her clients which included me, are not just about this next job or this next set of fractional jobs it's gonna be for the rest of your life. that's the environment, that's the work environment for the foreseeable future. So her perspective, and it's exactly what you're saying, Mary, is that even if you, let's say you get your, another full-time job, that's what you want or you get a full slate of clients can't take anymore. Her perspective is you don't stop. No. Like you're still networking. And you're networking not in the sense of looking for something right away. You're networking to build, to keep that, that network from going cold. Yeah. Because you can't just flip it on a switch. And in this work environment, that again, is not gonna go away anytime soon. No. You have to have that warm environment.'cause you just don't know. You're not guaranteed what you've got for very long. Yeah. So in that scenario. I guess you can look at it. Half glass, half full glass, half empty, sorry. The half empty part is, the scary part, right? Yeah. Which is yeah you could lose your job tomorrow or you could lose a couple of clients tomorrow. Mm-hmm. so you need to have that network in place on the glass half full. It's, you're kind of in control, in a sense, because People aren't getting locked into a role for many years, that means that that role is gonna be available sooner versus later. Right. So then there's choice. So sort of how you look at it. Like sometimes a lot of choice is good, sometimes a lot of choice is bad, but either way all about keeping the network warm and you can't let it go cold. And if people are freaking out,'cause like, like you said, you have to keep doing it. I kind of agree with that. I have heard too, like. Think of it like a stove dial. Mm-hmm. It's never going completely off. Mm-hmm. But like when you are at capacity, you can dial it back A little bit. Mm-hmm. But you keep it still warm. And then when you're like, oh no, all the clients are right. Moving through my, you know, funnel too fast. It's like I can turn it back up. But it's kind of like keeping. Some sort of like baseline. Yes. Where you're like, okay. Exactly. We're still gonna go to one a month or Yeah. Show up in my favorite one maybe it's checking with these people, not all that you were doing when you were hustling. Yeah. But you're not just shutting that. I love that, that analogy, you're not shutting the stove off like it's gotta be at least simmer or you know, something on that dial as someone who shut their stove off before. Yeah. Sucks. They shut it off. Walked away. I'm think I'm over here thinking like, I think I'm a horrible person because my motivation is like Desperate Housewives. I'm like, who's doing what right now? Who just left where they did? Oh, they did what they said what? And I'm like, Ooh, jobs open. Contract's open. I'm like, this is how my brain makes, and I'm looking at the marketplace. You gotta be on top of that gossip. But I'm like, I'm so motivated by it. And I'm wondering, uh, maybe there's a little something for everybody who's listening to this episode. well, however you approach it, it's just fine. If drama gets you in, there you go. But as long as you don't check out, that's the rule. You can't turn the stove off, you can't check out, you can't check out of the gossip column. we were talking a little earlier about some of the, I guess, volunteer associations we're a part of and about one that I'm in part of in particular. And I think that's a great way too, it doesn't have to necessarily be something that is a revenue source. Networking is also through the things you do. And so keeping those warm, right, not, not dropping off of these things, that's another way to keep the network warm. Speaking of you help organize some groups, you've got an AI group. do you wanna tell us more about that? it's the AI collective and it's actually a global network of chapters. So I'm just involved in the, in the Portland one. and it's not even just us by ourselves, there's a group, a whole host of AI related organizations. We provide, a part of what Portland needs and, and others do other parts. And so, we're just really trying to empower the local community and all of the chapters around the world. And that's maybe what makes the a, a collective a little different is it's, it's a global network of chapters. So it's not just something from Portland or just something from Seattle or just something from San Francisco. and so there's that scale. That the AI collective has and able to bring in partners and speakers and content from all over the globe, but then also able to do it in a way that's customized to the local community to really help AI and discussions around ai. And really it's about. ensuring that AI is gonna be a positive part of society. Like that's kind of the overlying mission of what AI Collective does, and it's very much a grassroots sort of focus. the thing I think that maybe distinguishes us from some other groups is we have that access to the global scale. And so when we talk about furthering AI in the Portland area, hey, we can bring philanthropic into that conversation or we can bring. A cursor, you know, some of these big names into those discussions because they also want to grow the local community. Like from a business standpoint or from a mission standpoint, they also exist to further AI in certain ways. So there's a AI collective can help those companies come into the, into the local communities. And that's kind of the angle I guess we have versus some of the others. But, but we often do it in partnership with other. Other groups, you know, it's not just us by ourselves. I mean, sometimes we, we do our own stuff too, trying to participate in that, community powered involvement to really make sure AI is a positive part of society. there has to be a local element to that, and that's kind of where the AI collective was born from. It kind of needs humans. Yeah, it does. It totally does be irony. Exactly. Exactly. Well, look, it's networking and it's, it's about networking. Yeah. So when I was talking about, you know, just continuing to be part of some of those groups that you know, you're a part of, even being able to create that space. I think it's a huge part of my networking. Well, Dinesh, if people wanted to work with you or learn more about you, how can they do that? I think my website is probably the, the place to go. We'll have that in the show notes. Yeah, exactly. it's got a contact page and whatnot. That's probably the place to go or look me up on LinkedIn. I trying to do speaking, I think we were talking a little earlier about. Or maybe it was our previous discussion, you know, there's networking in person and live, there's also asynchronous networking. Yeah. So I'm trying to be better about being on LinkedIn. Other people are much better than I am but I'd say LinkedIn is another way to connect with me and I try to be present there. Yeah, it's a very good way to describe LinkedIn. Those were so many truth bombs. I absolutely loved it and I really loved having Danesh in the studio. He's just such a light. We just love hanging out. it starts with a hug every time we see him. And I love that the conversation touched on themes that have been showing up throughout this season on the podcast about. People skills being interesting, having good connections with others and not just trying to. dump your offer onto people, or in this case, perhaps even just like job hunting. Like, do you have a job for me? Do you have a job for me? Yeah. there were some themes that we thought would be worth digesting after his chat with us. And one of those that popped out the most was when he talked about creating like a portfolio of networking. Dude, we have never had anyone, not even us, nobody. I don't think I've heard anybody talk about building almost like a financial portfolio, but a portfolio for your networking. all the lights went on in my head space when he said, said that your face really lit up. Yeah. Or did it? I got so excited. I'm wondering how much you think that maybe we have also been unwittingly building a pretty strong portfolio with our own activities. I mean, we went to like a fuck ton of events last year. Like a lot. Yeah. And they were very diverse. We went to things we've talked about where like we don't have that type of a business, but we went to. Events for that type of business. Yeah. Um, we went to happy hours, we went to coffee mornings, we went to, you know, like, pitch events. sometimes we were the audience, sometimes we were participants. Like we kind of did it. Mm-hmm. Well, I don't wanna say did it all, but like we spread a very wide net Yeah. Of all the events that we went to. I think this year we're kind of. Assessing what's in the portfolio, how has it performed? Yeah. And what do we want to invest more in and what do we want to maybe sell it, replace it, try something new. Shuffle, you know, shuffle things in a little bit more like at our We are definitely doing that. I mean, there was a little break. So for people who don't know, when we have guests and they come into the studio, we record with them, the guest leaves, we take a little break, we usually deal with some business. We totally did that today. And then we digest our notes so that we, we can record what we call these sandwich pieces, the before and the after. You and I as part of our business, were going through the calendar and it was like, okay, this thing is coming up. Are we going? Are we not? And then you were like, oh, there's this thing I wanna go to in the future, but like, I don't know. I'm instantly like, oh, it's probably easier just to carpool. well maybe after we get back from New York, 'cause we're about to go to BookCon in New York City at the time of this recording. and I keep thinking yeah, we are really rebalancing the portfolio. we've acquired enough data to not go to everything every week right now. we talked about mm-hmm. Travel with Dinesh and how that seems to be like our top premium thing that we're like, yes, I get maximum 10 outta 10 return on these and you and I are about to go together. To one. And it's not really a typical conference 'cause it's a convention. But there's no way. No, hell no. How We're not gonna be talking with the publishing community. And you're writing a novel, you're monetizing a series of stories right now. Another thought came to mind though, too.'cause I know some people will be like, gas prices or just like the cost of travel. I have been doing my research into what events are coming here. Ooh, that's good. Right, because there are certain events that people will fly in for. Now, again, like the stakes are a little lower on my end in terms of monetary cost and like maybe I won't feel the need to perform. As much because I didn't just drop two grand to get somewhere. Right. But like that is another option if people are like, oh, but is the biggest bang for your buck, but I just can't go right now. I'll be vending at an event in June, and it's like people are coming to town. People come for that, you know? I think that even if it's in your town, like I just got back from South by Southwest and I used to live in Austin and go to that. And I think that like the energy changes because there are people who've come in Yeah. And committed. And then you're there at the thing and you have to block out your time anyways. Mm-hmm. Even if you're not staying at a hotel, you're going home and you're still washing your own dishes and doing your laundry. you're still dedicating a certain amount of focus because that event is on the calendar and it's not just a happy hour. And you still paid. Yes, a bit. You do. there's something to be said for that. I think you and I are lucky because we live in a metro region where enough stuff comes here. And then we're also in close proximity enough to Seattle if we wanted to. And flights up and down the coast aren't that bad. Well, maybe I shouldn't say that. Yeah. With oil prices at the moment, there's In the time that we have been publishing episodes for this, Megan, we have people who don't live in Portland who are listening to us. Hi. And I know that not everybody lives in a metro region where things come to them. I think you kinda have to weigh your options. But you know, Dinesh also mentioned whether it's a financial constraint or because you're introverted, like so many of us. You're probably doing one to two destination conferences per year. Like I can't imagine doing Well, no, I, I can't say that 'cause I have done it 'cause I'm crazy. But in the past I have done, I was gonna say, the year just started. Mary, you will have more. the year started Sure. Coming and I have been on a plane every month already this year. But yeah, I do think there are some good virtual ones. I think it's I talked about with the niche. I know I mentioned it, it's like there are ways to leverage. Those events, even if it's virtual. Yes. And just showing up and listening is not enough. It's not enough. I think, you know, it's harder to. Not bullshit yourself in a virtual event space, because it can be so easy to be like, well, I'm here even if your camera is on. But it's so easy to turn the camera off and it's so easy to sit back. Like we were all talking about how like the best part of a virtual event happens in the chat. Yeah. But how many people just don't, they're like, oh, the chat's moving so fast. I can't, it's too hard. And I wonder How disciplined we all are when you're like, yeah, I'm just not quite feeling it today. I mean, I have left, breakout rooms. Oh my God. You have Irish exit. You're Irish exit Irish. So good. I just pretend I'm having technical I like to construct a story for why I've left. Not that they were boring, just, oh no, FedEx is here. But I mean, I'm also very much guilty of Playing the watermelon game or Mahjong on like this, splitting my computer screen. Well, it's really, I have dual screens. Like if I'm doing an online conference, I'm probably gonna do it from home'cause it's more comfortable than being here in my office studio. But it's so tempting because I've got the dual screens mm-hmm. And so I can multitask. You can't it's really hard. and I have had my laptop with me at physical conferences and also banged out emails and done duplicate work. I have done that before. It's harder to do too much though. Like you just, the constraints are, yeah, just so much in your face that you can't, but it's not unusual to see people taking care of like urgent messages or whatnot. But when you're at home, it's so easy to try to think you can split your attention. I'm wondering, this is such a left curve ball, left turn, curve ball question here. Do you think, so we're recording this at the end of March of 2026. There's a war in Iran. Oil prices are skyrocketing. There's ice now, potentially National Guard in our airports you and I are getting a little nervous about our trip coming up in April. Cause who knows, that's a long time away, this moment for enough things to happen that make things a little scary, where we're like. How white can we make Mary look? Do you think that we might. Weirdly see a rise in events going virtual in the second half of the year. Like I know that people put down deposits and there are plenty of conferences happening. Yeah. But like, do you think that anyone who hasn't already pre-booked travel or pre-purchased something that they might start saying you know what? I think I'm gonna wait. Yeah. I think conference is the ones that have like the dual ways to attend. Yeah, I think if you don't already have your ticket, I think everybody's gonna be like, you know what I'm kind of wondering, because like in the podcast space, it's not uncommon to see regional conferences have a replay option where you can buy the replay. And sometimes I've been tempted to do it just so I can like scrub the recordings to see if there's something that, especially if there's like a speaker where I'm like, oh, I really wanted to hear what they had to say. But I don't wanna go to the conference just for that. the question's a little self-serving because I have been wanting to do my own pilot live event and I'm I thought that there would be people from my network, interestingly, who were like, I would fly in for that. And I'm like, I don't know if you're gonna fly in for that anymore. I mean, I definitely need to have conversations with some of the people I'm closer to and just ask. But because events just seem so tenuous. Yeah. I really wonder. I think that's one, probably one of the most disruptive things for our favorite 10 outta 10 return type of mm-hmm. Event. Maybe we will be going more regional. Which is not a bad thing. No, my brain was also wondering if I could trick myself into paying more attention on a virtual event by pretending like I was traveling, and thus like, oh, I picked out an outfit For this day, and I got coffee. I have the best idea. You have to actually put on pants. Yeah. And then We could broadcast it on my big monitor in here and it could become like the in between place. like Dr. Who? Yeah. Like, we'll just, we'll like go to the in-between place and like that's where we'll conference. So it's not in your home office. Yep. So that we're not distracted by our cat. which is a big problem. It's a big problem, but I wonder if that's the thing, and maybe because it's not COVID where it's like you can't be around people that we start using some of our third spaces. To attend things. Ooh. Are we birthing a new Amazon? Just rent out that part of your studio. That's an amazing idea. One of the other things that Dinesh brought up that was super, super helpful, just to remind everybody, not that we haven't talked about it 11 billion times already, but is the notion of being curious about other people, finding mutual topics. We were like, oh my God, this touches on so many things. Small talk, being interesting, having people skills, but basically not just vomiting your offer on people, but actually. Listening like he was saying and asking questions and I know you and I agree on this and I'm like preaching to the choir right now. I almost wish we could have gotten him to like, demonstrate. Because when he is like, it's the questions That you ask. And I was like, oh, which ones I don't think it's a formula. It's not, no, it's a skill. You have to practice and develop a skill, which is why you have to leave your house damnit. And you might ask some really like, honestly just lame questions sometimes. Yeah, been there. Yeah, been there, done it. Like how many bad questions have I asked? Ask the ones where they just look at you afterwards and you're like, you don't have to answer that. That made more sense in my head than the words that came out of my mouth. I feel like it's all BTM questions come out. Do you like cats? I know I've asked a question that's just like downright insulting the person.'cause it's like an offhand comment about like, oh, well at least you don't do X for work. And they're like, that's what I do. And I'm like, oh, I mean, nevermind. Um, yeah. That's such needed work. Oh, Mary needs help over there. I have to go now. You just fail. Mid answer. You have to be curious. And I think too, like when we have those weird human fuck up moments in the middle of a conversation, But when we have them, we end up, interestingly, connecting better with a person. And if you don't connect with them, I don't think that connection was ever meant to happen. Oh, I mean, think about it. It's pretty fatalist. if you're meant to connect with somebody and you have a very human moment where you lose the thread, you just, you don't answer the right question, but you're genuinely curious and you can tell a person's a good person and you guys just end up chatting like, how many times have we helped somebody recover what they're asking or their question? Mm-hmm. And it's like, I really love that person. What a great new connection. Yeah. It's kind of like the equivalent of Online content marketing where you send an email and it's got typos or it's not perfect or something. people say, oh, I'm so glad, like I see some imperfection. It just makes you more human if, and if somebody doesn't have tolerance for your humanness. Do you really want them as a contact? I mean, maybe if they had $10 million and they wanted to give it to you, maybe then I'd be like, okay, I'll tolerate feeling like an idiot right now. But the last time I checked Mark Cuban, the real Mark Cuban, yeah. Is not in front of me. He's still just an AI approximation and my ChatGPT. How much do you think people, the average person, is willing to do the labor of being more interested in someone else than in themselves To ask those questions, to pull it out though. Well, if we go by the dating scene, I'd say not very. This is Bumble's entire strategy. We could do a whole episode just on the dating, crossover into networking, because I do think that some of these lack of curiosity skills have been reinforced in so many areas of life. Whether it's social media where you're like posting about yourself. I know not everybody does. People do celebrate other people or share news or try to disseminate information, But let's be honest, you're posting pictures of yourself. You're like trying to show the best side of yourself. LinkedIn, worst offender ever. And then you've got dating apps and. you have people who are just trying to look the best or snag the best person or whatever, and you're supposed to be curious about other people, but they're really not, I feel like there's a skillset that's like atrophied going back to the beginning of the episode, like the job market is so scary. You are in this heightened state of I need something. Yeah, I need something from you. I need your money. I need your money. it seems like getting to know someone in a curious way, it's gonna take too long. I don't have time. I don't care. I just need this now. Desperation. Ah, don't look good on anybody. I'm gonna leave that right there. But thank you Dinesh for bringing up curiosity and reinforcing that being interesting in asking questions is an important thing. there was one final thing that Dinesh did talk about, which was volunteering. he told us a lot about. the work that he does with an AI collective, it has a Portland chapter here in town, and you and I really pulled out how much it just reinforced while Dinesh was saying, like, networking happens everywhere and you never know who someone else knows. Just so true. Mm-hmm. We were like, well, the reason why he's finding good connections is because the man has a life. he is, Being an interesting person, there's something more than just his LinkedIn posts or more than just the consulting contracts that he's got or his resume or whatever. And it was just so apparent and it really reflects in his own success leaving corporate and, becoming a consultant. customer acquisition is no joke right now. The timelines are longer. It's harder to get new clients. People's decision making timelines are so much longer right now because you have to be careful with your budget. And the fact that in the short time we've known him, he doesn't do what some of our other consultant acquaintances do, which is like. Do you know anybody who does this or that? And like, there's just this like sort of mild panic running in the background. Like, oh shit, I need to find a client. We've never heard that from Dinesh. Nope. And I just really, he's very grounded. Very grounded. I just love that he modeled that. This is really just a, we love Dinesh episode, honestly. I'm not ashamed to say it. No. Like we wanted him on 'cause we're like, we just love Dinesh. But I think it's such a great case study of having met a new friend who wasn't biased and mm-hmm. Was truly welcoming. Didn't even realize he was just because, you know what? I know he's a good person. You're so cute. sadly, I wish it didn't surprise us as much as it did. That's it for today's episode of The Awkward Handshake. We record at Sasquatch Media Grounds in Vancouver, Washington. I'm Megan, co-founder of Fat Cap Design and creator of PDX Spellbound, and I'm Mary. Founder of Sasquatch Media Grounds and Sensible. Woo. You'll find links to everything we mentioned, guests, resources, and ways to connect with us in the show notes on your favorite podcast platform. That's also where you'll get updates on where we're headed next, and when we're inviting listeners like you to join us for guided networking in person and online. Don't be passive. Click the links. Pick better rooms. We'll see you there.