Is This a Business Problem… or a Therapy Problem?

What if the thing blocking your business… isn’t actually your business?

In this episode of The Awkward Handshake, we sit down with Micah Freeman, a licensed therapist, to talk about the overlap between mental health, nervous system regulation, and the way we show up in networking and business.

This conversation goes deeper than tactics. We explore the moments where strategy isn’t the issue—and where avoidance, fear, or dysregulation might be quietly running the show.

Micah breaks down how to tell the difference between a real business problem and an internal one, why so many people stay stuck trying to “fix” the wrong thing, and how understanding your own patterns can completely change how you connect, communicate, and grow.

If you’ve ever thought, “I know what to do… so why am I not doing it?”
This episode might answer that.

In this episode, we talk about:

•  The difference between a business problem vs. a therapy problem
•  How avoidance shows up in networking and visibility 
•  Why your nervous system impacts how you connect with people 
•  The role of emotional regulation in business growth 
•  Why “fixing your strategy” doesn’t always fix the issue 
•  How to recognize when you’re stuck in a loop 
•  What it looks like to build awareness instead of just pushing harder 

Meet the Guest

Micah Freeman

Micah Freeman is a licensed professional counselor, educator, and coach who helps people stop overthinking their way through relationships and start understanding the patterns actually driving their behavior. With 10 years of clinical experience and 18 years of teaching, he also serves as adjunct faculty in the counseling department at Portland State University.

He is the founder of Ego Strength Coaching and host of The Self-Study Lab podcast, where he teaches a nervous-system-informed approach to understanding behavior, including how often we confuse stress responses for personality traits.

➡️ Get your free PDF from Micah here!

Connect with Micah:
🔗 Website
🤝 LinkedIn
🎧 Micah's Podcast

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Transcript

0:00

This is The Awkward Handshake, a podcast about networking business and what really happens in the room. We're unpacking the good, the bad, and the awkward, so you can build better connections and get paid. Let's get into it. today is the 1st of May. We kick off Mental Health Month for the month of May, and we could think of no one better to bring onto the podcast than our friend Micah Freeman, who is a licensed therapist, an amazing person. And we knew from when we started getting ready to do the show that we wanted to do this, but then we realized that we were gonna be airing at the end of the season during Mental Health Month, and it just seemed really appropriate. And honestly, a lot of mental health. topics have come up in the course of recording. Yeah. I mean, one of your most popular questions when you're coaching people is, is this a therapy question that you're encountering? and Micah actually sets us up so well in the episode for today because he talks about how businesses can frequently be used as distraction tools. And it was like, ugh. Oh, it hurt. it really was about like, are you looking to try to fix something externally when what you really need to do is some internal work? And I was like, that's so much more elegant of a way to talk about it than. My like super blunt way, like is this a business problem or a therapy problem? but there's so much context around this concept and you and I have noticed that we make community for people. We go out into community with other people. People talk about their anxieties pretty regularly. Thankfully, COVID opened up a lot of dialogue around mental health, which is great. But anxiety is a real problem. You and I are very different in the sense. I have literally been not diagnosed officially. I am neither anxious nor depressed, clinically speaking. So I realize I have a really hard time understanding the anxious experience and like I have my anxieties, but everyone does. Yeah. Mm-hmm. but I know I don't experience it the way that so many other people do, I think it's so important that we make sure that. All of the things that might prevent you from building a great business or being out in community and having the support that everyone should have, that there are resources that will help you do that, even if you have some pretty significant things like anxiety. Yeah. I mean, growing up, my grandpa would always say it's all in your head. It's like, yes it is. Thank you. But like you said, like you haven't had the experience, so you know you're missing out on the mental aspects of it, right. That can cloud your perceptions and things like that. But also, like there's, there's physical responses that a lot of times it feels like either you have no control over or Oh, this is totally what everyone else in the room is feeling. and we didn't really have time to go into it, but as Micah was talking and about like, preparing to go to an event. when I am not with you, if I have to drive solo. is it different? I mean, I assume, yeah, so because driving for me is also difficult'cause I don't have debt perception. So yeah. I'm always just, and going someplace new. I just always, there's a lot of like, am I, am I gonna make it on time? Where am I gonna park? Is this gonna be easy? Am I gonna find my way? Is it dark outside? what's gonna happen? Just a lot of variables you will laugh, but it works. I'll generally be doing a breathing exercise. So it's either box breathing or I generally put on music if I sing to something uhhuh, that helps. Oh, you're activating your vagus nerves. Yep. Or I literally just. Every exhale is just a hum uhhuh for as long as you can go. And so you're just like cruising around town, you know, just hum away. Look at you doing somatic therapy in the car while you're driving through Portland traffic. It's just like one of those steps to be like, I know I wanna go to this. I know my body and mind are having a feeling. But I still wanna go. this is one step, instead of just pretending it doesn't exist, telling myself like, you shouldn't be anxious about this. Just being like, no, I'm having an anxious feeling. Yeah. So it's not me that's the problem. It's just a feeling, what are the small things that I can do just to try and, like you said, like somatic, just calm my body down. Before I then have to go into a room where I cannot be humming, I think you point out something so important, you acknowledge it. You don't pretend like it's not happening, and girl, if it makes you feel better. Before I go to an event, especially in a city where you're gonna be doing street parking and stuff, I am notorious for looking up the location on Google Maps first to like plot my travel timing and plans. Yep. But then I go into Street View. Yeah. I, I'll pan around the street, street, I'm like, where is the parking? Because you know me. I don't like going to parking garages. It is not an anxiety response for me. It is a logistical response. I don't wanna wait for somebody in front of me who can't find their ticket and can't get out.'cause that happens all the time. If I can help it, I don't do a parking garage just 'cause it's easier, faster in and out on a street spot and at least here where we live. Yeah. Parking kitty quits at like six o'clock or six 30. most of the time. Not, in every district, but most of the time if we're even paying for half an hour of parking, I'm like. It would still be more inside the garage. And then I have to deal with some doofus in front of me who can't find the party ticket. But look at you, you're doing, see, now I don't feel bad'cause I, I stream map it too. And you don't even have anxiety. No. And you park amazing. And I, I park like a, I mean, I drive like an old lady, but that's. It's for safety. It's, it's for everyone's safety. I remember the first time we went to, no, not first time, but early on we were going to events and I picked you up and you were, I could tell you were feeling a little anxious. We left a little earlier than I normally would and I was just kinda like, oh, okay. Yeah, that's fine, that's fine. I could tell like you needed it. And so we left like maybe half an hour earlier than I normally would've. And you know me, I'm like speed racer. It's like NASCAR in my car. And we get there and you were like, oh my God, I've never gotten your so fast. It might have been for a freelancers union thing. Yeah.'cause you have to go all the way in and you were like, like, I've never been here this early before. No, because I pick a lane and I stay in it and I don't move. Does it matter what's happening? I might give people anxiety sitting in the passenger seat of my car, but yeah, I think like there's obviously a spectrum to everything and in mental health there is definitely a spectrum. I think it's important that everyone listening to the episode remembers to talk with your own licensed health professionals and make sure that you get the support you need. You are not gonna get all the answers that you need on this episode, but we do really, really want to support all of our friends and neighbors and countrymen who are avoiding some really great events and connection spaces in community, which all of us need right now because anxiety is a real thing and. Getting out of your house and getting into a room with other live human beings can be one of the most healing things. But it can also feel like one of the most crippling things if you don't have the tools. And Micah gives us quite a few. Yeah. so without further ado, Let's meet our guest. Micah Freeman is a licensed professional counselor, educator and coach who helps people stop overthinking their way through relationships and start understanding the patterns, actually driving their behavior. With 10 years of clinical experience in 18 years of teaching, he also serves as adjunct faculty in the counseling department at Portland State University. He's the founder of Ego Strength Coaching and host of the Self-Study Lab podcast, where he teaches a nervous system informed approach to understanding behavior, including how often we confuse stress responses for personality traits. Oh, oh, Micah. Ouch, your bio. We haven't even gotten to the episode yet, I will tell everybody that you should definitely go check out the show notes because Micah has an amazing handout that will definitely help you. And with that, we'll get into the episode. Micah, thank you so much for joining us today. We really wanted to have an actual licensed therapist join us to talk about mental health to kick off May being mental health month. So thank you for being here. I am very excited to be here sitting across from both of you. Your presence is just so calming and you have such a great framework and we've had so many off mic discussions about all of our neurodivergence and how we navigate the world. We are talking about how networking isn't about skill, it's about the state that you're living in. one of the top things that Megan and I hear regularly from the people who come to our networking spaces or the people that we just interact with because we're networking freaks and we go to everything is relationship management and like showing up for things and just all the usual fears and anxieties around being seen and heard. And we wanted to know like, how would you. Begin to approach that if you're just like all up in your fields and you haven't really sorted out what's going on. I think the first thing to remember is that we are a very old species, 200 to 300,000 years old, and for most of that time we were living in small bands of people of up to 150. if you think of the span of evolution being the size of a football field, we're on that last blade of grass. and so we weren't actually designed to have relationships with thousands of people and process all of the inputs and stimulation that we do now. And so it's actually miraculous that we do as well as we do in these, modern civilization times. but first of all, just normalizing that it's not natural to go meet a group of strangers. You know, for 200,000 years every face that you had a conversation with would've been deeply familiar to you. And so we are now living in a time when you are exposed to different faces chronically. And we still have the hard wiring that believes that if we are to be ostracized, kicked out of the tribe that we will die. So we all still have a primal fear of exclusion. Because that was a matter of survival for our entire lineage. And so when we notice ourselves getting anxious, meeting new people, that's that primal drive kicking in. And so just normalizing, this is very. Bizarre scenario that we're all living through. And if you're having anxiety meeting new people, well you're normal. Well we were talking before the show and Megan and I have talked about it on previous episodes, and people who notice will notice Megan is very open about the anxieties that she has and the way that she recovers from it. And I have been actually diagnosed like, no, you're not anxious or depressed, clinically speaking. But I get a lot of anxiety sometimes in new rooms and like, I have my shy moments and, well, I did a lot of somatic therapy and that helps. So I've got physical tools that help me stay grounded in the moment. But I mean, it is a skillset that you have to build. absolutely. And I think that people often confuse their personality for their state behaviors. Oh, that's a hot take. Yeah. So, for so much of my life I kind of thought I might be a garbage human because I was so chronically activated and my reactivity would be, oftentimes in the fight realm, or the flight realm. So I would just leave. People or situations or I would get into, um, conflict with people. I thought that's just my personality. But really what that is, is, a hardwired, defense response that my nervous system learned when I was tiny. And so the first thing that we need to all do is figure out what are our patterns that we see in our relationships. Rather than, I'm the kind of person that has this personality and I don't, I don't do this and I do do that, but just starting to pay attention. Oh, that's like inner child work. It's absolutely inner child work. So we're all just kindergartners going out to networking events. We are, I think there's maybe five adults in the world, and the rest of us look like adults, but we're not. We're like five to 10. Well, it's similar too, to what you and I did. When I recognized that you had the, the freeze response Yes. And stepped in and was saw this happen, and would you like assistance? basically just a buffer. Yeah. Not me protecting you, but literally just giving time let the computer reboot, Well, it's, it's like the ultimate squad goals. it was our episode to talk about finding a yes friend and building a yes friendship. And there's a lot of trust that's built because we've logged a lot of hours together doing this, Huge credit to Megan for being the one who noticed right away. And she's like, you, you have a freeze response. And she's like, how can I help? And even my response, I froze. I knew you did. And I was like, just wait. And she was like, oh, you just need me to help you as a friend. I need to help you buy some time in a moment so that things like that don't happen again. And I was like, what a great friend. what a wise friend too. Yes. because she's right. That's exactly what you need. Because when we go into that reflexive nervous system state, in order for us to have any, capacity for agency or even being in authenticity, we have to be less dysregulated and that. Takes time and awareness for you to actually attend to that part of yourself. And so that's so cool that she observed that and helped you see that. Yeah. So we were both like, well, what's yours? What's mine? And so we like keep an eye on each other it really helps. I know that it takes time to build those kinds of relationships. Speaking of nurturing relationships, and I would say at the beginning of getting to know each other as. New business contacts, friends, it takes a while to build that. But I would say like you go out to your first event and it's, there's a little anxiety. You're like, I don't know this person, she's riding in my car. Is it gonna be great or is it gonna be shit? It's gonna happen, but if you don't take a chance, it's kind of hard to get to the good part.'cause people keep asking us, how do I find a yes friend? I think this conversation we're having, that's rooted in therapy. might have some clues for a lot of people on how to get over the personal hump so that you can actually start building that. Yeah. Well, you're bringing up something really important, which is the fact that if we avoid discomfort, we stay exactly where we are. recognizing this is uncomfortable for me to drive in this car with this person, I don't know, but I'm gonna do an experiment and I'm gonna try it and see how it goes. And for me, 99% of the time, the catastrophic story my mind makes up about how shitty something's gonna be is not accurate. It's usually just fine. And in spite of having done this experiment so many times over, I still have to soothe myself and remind myself that my prediction is 99% off. So just go try this thing. it's in the, realm of, hormetic stressor. we have vilified stress is a bad thing, but the fact is all organisms need some kind of stress. And so a hormetic stressor is a positive stressor. that's within your tolerance. as you push into a little bit of discomfort, not lack of safety, but just this is not a, this is not comfortable for me. You're actually building your capacity to do that more and more often. And so it's such an important. Point of growth to make a conscious decision to be uncomfortable and to know that you're actually growing yourself through that you're growing your capacity. How does somebody. learn to tell the difference that this is a good stress? everything is uncomfortable, but this one is actually a good stress versus that one there's lack of safety there. It's not healthy. Right. How do you make that distinction? Because what I'm thinking is, Megan and I talk about this all the time because we're both like, yeah, I'm uncomfortable. I'm gonna do it anyways. And again, my therapist is like, I wish more people could do. She's like, it's your superpower. You will do whatever scares the pants off you. And I was like, yeah, because I don't want it to scare me. Again. That's so wild. I want control wise. That's so incredible. And you are an outlier. I know. Yes. The rest of the pieces is she all the time, like, oh, that's uncomfortable. Not for me. when presented with two I will do the worst one. but it's a really good question. Well, because I think you and I formed our Yes. Friendship because we both realized early on, oh, you operate like I do, where you're like, I have learned to be. a little more trusting or comfortable with my discomfort, so I'm gonna go to that thing. Yeah. Because a bear and a tiger is not gonna chase me down at a networking event. do you think you have to trust yourself first? Yeah. I was gonna say there, there are two different, avenues and one is that you might be in contact enough with yourself to be able to. feel that somatically is this somatically a yes or a no? But for a lot of people, they haven't trained that self-awareness yet. And so they don't actually know what is the right titrated dose of exposure. And so for those people, it's gonna have to be a series of experiments. And so you're gonna, you're gonna start with something that doesn't feel overly exposing or overly uncomfortable. You're gonna have that experience and then you're gonna, really anchor into that. And that will expand you to try another experience. But I think for a lot of people, it's gonna be a process of experimentation. and don't just try to do the hardest thing you think of, because then you're gonna confirm for yourself that you can't do hard things. Mm-hmm. And so you really wanna titrate it. Tiny exposures. for example, going to a networking event, and maybe it's so terrifying for you that the first time that you go, you just walk through the doors, make a, make a round, and you leave. that might be your first experience at a networking event. And that's okay. That's That's an exposure ladder. Yeah.'cause you got in the car Yeah. Drove all the way there. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And maybe the next time you make a deal with yourself that you're gonna introduce yourself to two people. And so you can incrementally build your awareness of your capacity and your capacity. And everybody's at different levels for sure. In the sense that like I, in my mind I'm like, we should not shame if the, if your first one, if that's all you can do, at least you're trying and you'll get further. And there's some people who go, the one we went to that had like 300 people. and they may have looked like they were having a fun time, but I think internally they were probably like crying a little bit. Are you talking about the one, the big one? The big one That was like 500 people. It was a, in my mind I have like 700 in my mind, but that might be an exaggeration. It was a whole ballroom. but I think even if you like went to that, it doesn't mean that that person's comfortable and a lot of times the people who seem the most comfortable and in control. are falling apart inside. back to the trust thing. this is one of the things that is really important too, is that if you force yourself to do something, then you're not going to trust yourself in the future. Making a deal with yourself that if you do get too overwhelmed that you, are gonna allow yourself an exit strategy, right? Yeah. Because if you are, if you're. If you are demonstrating to yourself that you're gonna put yourself in really difficult situations and you're not gonna have any kind of relief or release, Then you are, perpetuating that lack of self-trust. So I do mountain biking, and they have a green, yellow, red system for new people. And that is, we will show you how to do this. Green is yes let's go. I'm gonna try that jump, I'm gonna try to like, do the berm. Yellow is, I'm scared. Or they also say like, being anxious is the same as being excited, like at a certain level. I'm nervous, but I wanna try it. And red is not today. And there is no shame and you just walk over that thing. That's beautiful. That's actually, trauma informed. Yes. That's exactly what being trauma informed is. I just came back from a week long childhood liberation retreat and, every exercise you got to determine a one, two, or three. One, I'm just observing on this one. Two, I'm not sure. I'm gonna try a little bit. Three, I'm all in. And that's, that's, so, that's awesome. So I think you can do that with. Do that with yourself. Yeah. For everything. How cool would it be if more of our networking experiences in business incorporated this though, we have, we have toyed with so many ideas on the microphone now. This season we're like, you know, if people could. Figure out how to self identify.'cause we will have pronoun stickers and you pick your pronoun stickers and it's like, stick it on your name tag. there could be so many different stickers, like different colors, like red, yellow, green, you know, it kind of like right when COVID was breaking out or coming out of COVID and people were able to put sticker like, please don't hug me. Mm-hmm. because some people don't understand physical boundaries anyways. And so they're like, let's all have a hug. And people were like, I don't want to, and I'm wondering like, do we need this? In our events for all of our organizers or people who come with their like permanent prepared name tags, oh, if somebody has a pin that I've seen, there's this ad I keep getting fed on Instagram, which just tells you something about me and it tells you your people in level and you can just like flip the switch from like red is like I cannot deal with people no more. Green is like, I'll talk to anybody like, where are you today? That is so brilliant. One of the things we practiced in that. retreat was, connecting with somebody by saying hello. And then when you, and then just saying goodbye, whenever it felt like you wanted to say goodbye. And so there was just, we just normalized, like you might be in the middle of the conversation, but if you notice that you're not feeling it anymore, you have permission to just be like, goodbye. I told Mary, I finally gave myself the agency to say, I'm not getting what I need out of this. And so I don't need to give my time when it's either not being respected or it's just like I'm not getting an ROI and I've not paid to be here or whatnot. instead of trying to people please, I will just pretend that somebody's at my door and I will just leave the call. And I told you that and you were like so offended. I was like, you. Left. So I mean, I think actually that's healthy boundaries. I think amazing. The more that we can get in contact with what's true for us, it might be that, people are gonna be disappointed, but that's just the nature of relationships. If you know, it's not my responsibility, it's not your responsibility. And if you know anybody for any amount of time, they're going to disappoint you. Like let's just normalize that as well. if somebody hasn't disappointed you yet, you just don't know them well. I'm having this aha moment where I'm thinking people like me who suffer way less. Anxiety and depression on any daily basis. I know we're the weirdos, honestly. Yes. And confirmed like, Lucky you. I have my anxious moments. I have my depressed days, but like it doesn't Yeah. Doesn't take over, you know, daily functioning for me And when I go to events, I am a self-diagnosed introvert. Like I will just poop out on people time. But I feel like, because I have done enough, I do notice that being a generous networker, I can see when somebody is feeling a little less confident or they're kind of hugging the wall they can't figure out how do they get incorporated into discussion. And I always. Do my best to be generous and welcome them and like, come here. Like come in. Yeah. Like who are you? And I think if more of us were able to do that on days where we're feeling stronger, I think our communities would be stronger too. if you are aware enough that you're having a really good day and you have capacity to be generous for somebody else where they might, this might be their first. Drop by networking thing and they're, you know, testing their healthy discomfort, but to have one person show them that helps build those skills and good people know other good people. So having those people in the community is better than not. Absolutely. And I think you're actually, pointing to the thing that will heal the world, which is the more that we attend to ourselves and heal our our own struggles, the more that we can show up with a greater capacity to engage with others. everybody's trying to fix everything externally. And really the place to start is by doing your own work so that you can be that person that you just described. Well, I may not be good at Irish exiting out of zoom rooms, but I have gotten so much better. But see, that even was, that took courage. That takes so much courage. So that, that was like, you know, green, yellow, red, and I was like, we're trying it. So much courage though, like holy crap. But then you realize as soon as you're out, you're like, what are they gonna do? Come, nothing happens. The world didn't end. Yeah. I have been a lot better and we're also scaling back on how much we go out and do events. But if I'm tired now, I'm like, no, I'm not missing anything. Like this is not a good day for networking. Yeah. Like I'm just gonna make sure I self care and sometimes what I need is to like not talk to people. Eat a good home cooked meal with vegetables in it and like, hydrate. and so that has been good, too, to like be able to make that differentiation instead of trying to force things to happen. But I know that that can be hard 'cause all of us are business owners and the world is kind of a dumpster fire and the economy is a little upside down. And so you do you feel like, oh, if I don't go out, am I missing something? The FOMO is real. So I'm wondering anxiety, and then that's, that's a bit of anxiety. That's anxiety. Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering, Micah, if you can address like the FOMO feelings that people get and how do you deal with that and still be a business owner? Because businesses, people like, I mean, you do have to eventually talk to people. Well, I do think it comes back to a capacity issue again. And so actually even in what you two are just describing how you can't imagine, just Irish goodbye, a Zoom meeting. it's apples and oranges because your operating systems are different. you really have to figure out what's your capacity and what is your strategy for your capacity, and it's gonna be different. We're all working on different things. And so that's one of the reasons I don't like the the Instagram mental health hype, because it's also reductive and it's like, here's the tool that will solve your problem. And it's like we actually all have to figure out what our capacity is, what our strategies, what our chosen strategies are gonna be, and they're gonna be different. People tend to be on a spectrum. usually there's two polarities and, and we wanna be somewhere in the center. And so if you're on the end, the edge where you generally, peace out right away. Then your work is gonna be to stay a little longer. If you're a person who stays way past their capacity because they're so worried about what other people are gonna think of them, they're worried about approval, then you're gonna need to swing over to actually saying no and leaving. in order to do any of this work, we have to figure out ourselves. that's what I had to do because I realized I wasn't valuing myself enough, and so conversations would go long. And in your head you're like, I'm getting nothing out of this, and this person is just taking, taking like just, they're just dumping on me. Yeah. And you're like, I don't need to stay here. I can make up an excuse if I want to. I'd love to just be able to say goodbye just in no context, just like goodbye. But it is kind of like, yeah, I was way too far in the people blazing and had to be like, but I deserve to get something out of this and I deserve the respect. Yeah. You know, to, be like, this conversation isn't serving me and it's not serving you. Let's be honest. I'm gonna go find somebody else. I mean, that is just so powerful. But we're not trained to do that. We're trained to just sit and wait or I am until They get to decide and that's one of the reasons we don't trust ourselves is because we are, reflexing into fawning responses where we are prioritizing somebody else's comfort or our perceived. Idea of what their comfort is. Yes. I mean, it might be that both people are like, oh my God, this is awful. Right. And they're like waiting for the other person. Right. But I think so many of us, especially those of us who were socialized female, have this tendency to which I was, I'm a trans man, have this tendency to put the care and concern. On the other person at our own expense. And so for so many of us, it's about recognizing that anytime that you are going past your capacity and taking care of somebody else's needs or the things that you perceive they need, you are fawning, you are reflecting into a nervous system state of fawn. This further proves my point. I'm gonna die on this hill this year. If we all just operated more like mediocre white men, the world would be fine. Because they would be like, well, this has been great, but I need to go somewhere else to make more business due. But they do do that, And I've had having more meetings with more men in the last year, almost two years now. I used to service mostly women in my, in my coaching practice. And then because I've shifted over into media, it's a much more mixed crowd now. And the men will stay on time. Get to the end of the meeting and they're just done. I've been taking notes out of their books while I've been meeting with them. I'm like, oh, that was very effective I find that with, women and I fall back into this trap constantly oh, let me nurture you and oh, let me give you so much more than you need. We'll, I have to really explain why it's a no. I have to like really justify everything. Justify instead of just saying, no, So I think what you're saying is we actually. I agree with is that we actually do need to be more like those men, some of us, and those men need to be a little more pathetic. Like everybody empathetic and, yeah. it's the polarity spectrum where you figure out where you are and then you like veer toward the center. The thing that keeps coming up in my brain as we're talking is there are clearly therapy things that. Impact your business. And then there are business things that will bring up therapy things and like at what point does somebody who's in their business journey, and we're just going through the lens of networking here in this moment, at what point do they realize oh crap. Like I keep trying to force myself to do something. This might be actually be like a need for a. Therapist and a some therapeutic, resources rather than just trying to solve it through a business window with like a business coach. it's not an offer problem, it's not a relationship management. I mean, relationship management could be part of the therapy, but it's not like, oh, I have a leads problem, or I have a clarity problem, or I have a positioning problem, or I've priced my offer wrong, or I'm going to the wrong groups. It's really. More of like, I need to work on myself. do you have any words of wisdom, Micah? Well, I'm wondering if you have, an example of what you mean, because Mary asked this question every, because everybody who comes to you, you're like, is it a business problem or is it a therapy problem? And I'm saying nine times outta 10 is a therapy problem. so in my coaching practice, I stopped coaching. Because I started noticing, especially coming out of COI. That a lot of people were ending up in my group program rooms. Sometimes they would just break down in tears all the time. And it was like, this isn't about business. Like yes, we have emotional days in our business, but you're crying every single meeting. Or they would be trying to solve an offer problem. Like I think my pricing's off, I dunno how to explain my sales language. my leads aren't good, I'm not finding them. And as we would dig through the business part. There is just sort of this wall where it's like there is no amount of rewriting your sales page or learning to, market yourself better. there were clearly things where it's like. This fear of being seen or of talking to people or being vulnerable with other people mm-hmm. Is the, is more the problem. And that's honestly just not a business problem. That's self work that you have to do. and there was just so much of it, and it might just be who I attract, but I was like, I've gotta end this program. think that's actually, because that's. most people. It's not who you attract, okay? It's that there, there is something in us that thinks if we, manipulate the circumstances that are external, then we're finally gonna have peace internally. And so a lot of people do that through business. They think if I can just dial in my business, I'm finally gonna feel good. psychology calls that the arrival fallacy. Which is the idea that if you do a particular thing, then you will have arrived and life will be comfortable and easy. And that is not real. Kind of like trying to make a certain amount of money and then being like, I made it. Right. As soon as you make that amount of money, it's not gonna be enough. Yeah. Because of our dopaminergic system, because of the hedonic treadmill. Because we are wired to only get that dopamine hit and enjoy something for a very. limited amount of time, so you're never gonna solve the internal issues by making something good externally. Oh, that is so juicy. I love that you used that word. I was like depressing, but Sure. Juicy. So I used to be in the craft industry and the, the big thing in there, 'cause there's so many women, was charging your worth. And the issue was because they couldn't charge a high enough price because you think that the money is coming from somebody's food. Money. Mm. So you're taking it from them. They're not giving it to you. You're taking it, and then their kids aren't gonna have clothes and all this, and you're like, you're making that decision for them. Oh, wow. And so that's definitely more of a therapy problem to be like, no, they are deciding you're not affecting your agency. We have. They have agency. They get to decide and you don't know how much money they have. Yeah. And they get to make this decision and maybe they love this thing and. Like for me, like I always price my kits really high and people would be like, how dare you and mm-hmm. But people would come back and be like, just helped me with my anxiety. This got me through COVID and I was like, for 30 bucks, that's cheaper than therapy. which you can't get right now. So that's kind of like, a very clear example we can raise your prices, but you won't ever tell people what your prices are then, or. You just, you'll feel so like it's just pulling teeth to get there. well I would say there's not a person on the planet that doesn't have some sort of, blind spot or shortcoming to work on. well one would be nice, maybe the Dalai Lama. Oh, even he's not perfect. Yeah. Actually he's not. But he is accountable when he is imperfect. Yes. Which I love. I know. That's as good as it gets. I told my therapist that we'd started with the skeletons in the closet and I was like, so now it's a walk-in closet. we're gonna expand further if you keep finding them. So could we like stop finding them? And girl, I have a multi acre warehouse facility right. Yeah. But to that point, anybody's business is gonna improve the more that they work on themselves. And not just their business. Every domain in their life. Yes. Right. Their relationships. I mean, whatever it is that they do. And I think people, people skip that part. Oh, it's hard. That's scary. It is. It is very scary. It's very scary to work on yourself. You have to admit some things. Admitting things is really hard, and taking accountability and responsibility for choices that you've made or the part you've played in certain interactions is really, really hard to do. And it doesn't mean that you always have to like go talk to the person, like a 12 step program, but like to deal with it for yourself though Yeah. Requires you not to run away from yourself and that takes a quite a lot of bravery. Yeah. And I think for me, one of the concepts that really helped was, understanding dialectics. people will gravitate toward either feeling shame. or blaming everybody else, right? Again, the polarity and the truth is in the middle where, um, where we are all, we all have beautiful parts and we're also deeply flawed. And so holding the dialectic of two things that seem on the surface that can't coexist actually do. so recognizing when I was younger, I would over identify with the parts of me that were disappointing and I'd be like, that's the real me and the other me that shows up for friends and is generous and funny and silly. That's, that's not the real me. And so understanding the concept of, the dialectic, but we're living in a time that's just rife with dichotomous thinking. Everything is in a good category or a bad category, and we do that to ourselves. But the more that we can hold the fact that no, we're flawed and also we're amazing, but you have to be able to hold both to do that work. I think that's a wonderful segue into a concept that you have. On your downloadable handout that again, we will have in the links in the show notes, but you have terms called vulnerability hangover versus a superiority hangover. And I just think a so freaking brilliant dude like. Fucking love it because when, when I, when he walked into the studio and you're like, look, superiority, hangover. And I was like, oh God, we all raised our hands. I made a sheet, for people to work with themselves in social situations and on the sheet at first was just the vulnerability hangover, which were thoughts like, oh, was I too much or Did they like me or did I talk too much? And then I thought about it a little more and I was like, oh. But sometimes we do the opposite and we're like, oh, they were too much. I didn't like them. And so recognizing that both of those are defense mechanisms. and one of them, is, your system, going inward, the vulnerability hangovers that is the inward, and that, and the outward defense mechanism is feeling superior. And so being able to notice that, and if you don't notice it in real time, you can reflect afterwards and notice, I have vacillated between both of those so many times. I mean, every time I'm put into a situation with a new group of people, my first thought is these are not my people. Yep. Never felt that. Never. And that's just, that's just a defense. Like, I'm scared just people. These people might reject me. I can like giggle to myself when I have that thought because I literally can't think of an exception. When the outcome is not actually, oh, these people are wonderful, or I found a wonderful person, but that doesn't mean that my brain doesn't still tell me every time I go into a new event. I don't know about these people. These aren't for me. I heard you all talking about this in one of your podcasts. the idea people have a real, attachment to what they want to get out of going to a network event. I think to broaden your idea of what the benefit could be. And I've heard you two talk about it, like maybe, maybe you just meet a new friend or maybe you meet somebody who knows somebody that connects you later but, just staying open to the fact that, I think I like the term outcome agnostic. And so recognizing that there are so many things that could be in play that you're not seeing. And so if you just evaluate it through the lens of I didn't get a client. Or nobody liked me. there's a hundred other, other variables that you're not seeing that could be of benefit to you if you expand your mind. maybe I didn't get what I wanted out of a circumstance, but I learned something about myself. Yes. Isn't that ultimately the goal? Yeah, for sure. Micah, we could talk for hours. Oh my God. It'd be so easy. I think this is a wonderful primer though. So thank you for helping us, do this for the audience. I know that it will help a lot of people Megan, I feel therapized. You didn't even have to pay for that session. I know. I was sitting across the table from, and I was like, I feel like I should pass Micah, like a few dollar bills to be like, thanks friend. Honestly, I have talked to Micah for hours and hours. I know you could too. we had mentioned at the very beginning of this episode, and then we gave people a chance to listen to it with Micah on the microphone, talking about people in business who might unwittingly use their businesses as a distraction tool. A very convenient distraction tool because it's easy for us as interesting human beings with psychological issues to try to fix things externally when what we really need to do is. Work on something internally, some internal development issues, and that if you do the internal development, I mean, it's gonna help your business grow. It's what you need. I was trying to think, have I done this myself? And I'm sure that I have. I think it's easier to see it in other people. Oh yeah. Where they blow something up and then they're like, they just didn't understand me. I'm gonna go, offer this new offer. Mm-hmm. And it'll be totally different and these people will get me, and it's like. Yeah, no, you did something bad and you're just trying to like run away from the fire, like the dumpster that you set on fire and are just trying something new. ooh. Do you think this is why business fads exist? We've been talking about this. Yeah. I'm convinced this. Mm-hmm. This is why MLMs exist. Mm-hmm. Because, they try to make it in quotes, easy, your startups easy, just buy this whole package of stuff and then find all your downline people, blah, blah, blah. And so people move from essential oils to some fitness thing, to some makeup thing, to some jewelry thing. It's like never ending. A lot of the trends that I saw definitely were for women, we both saw the mommy blogger rise. Yes. That was, you don't have to leave your house. Yeah. that was more of a, you know, a, you are stuck in your house for certain reasons. I got into. web design was a big one. Graphic design. SEO Surface design. SEO. Virtual assistants. Yep. Virtual. So all of it was like online courses. It's easy. Yeah. So, but you would see the same people jump from one to the next, to the next to the next, yes. Because they hadn't figured out how to actually sell. Or how to develop a network because business is people. So Yeah. You don't market to nobody, right? Or everybody. Yeah. You market to your market and you need connection to your market, and this is where the networking comes in. But yeah, people will sell you the sun, the moon, and the stars, and a bottle of snake oil, and you're like, look at me, I'm doing business. And you're like, why isn't it working? It's like, 'cause boo, you need to do some internal work. Yeah. But you could avoid that because. To start the business. Yeah. It's gonna take all that work and all that time. And once I get everything set up, then I can go do the marketing. that was just such a valuable discussion point and Micah had all the right words for it. You and I have seen so many people avoid this. But we've also seen lots of people avoiding their networking activities when that's not gonna solve all your problems. But because business is people, you need to have some relationships and you need to, you need to be able to maintain those relationships. Actually, the three of us, before we hit record, sat down, went over our notes and we actually asked a couple of really big things.' cause the topics were just so huge. Yep. And one of them, we just. Honestly did not have the breadth in this episode to get into it. we don't wanna turn it into a Huberman Lab podcast, so we're not gonna record for four hours. We're just not gonna do that. but one of them was, especially for our neurodivergent crowd, but even the non neurodivergence, maintaining relationships is a thing. Well, Micah said it would be a whole season. So yeah, we like trusted as judgment. but yeah. on a more entry level, talking about external problem solving versus internal problem solving, I think that this was a great way for people to get introduced into it instead of trying to throw the whole topic at them. One of the other things that Micah talked about was what you and I are gonna paraphrase, which I know I'm so guilty of doing this, and it's if I can achieve this thing, like if I can make this amount of money, or if I can speak on these stages, then I, I'll know that I made it or I'll feel like I made it, or somehow I'm more worthy. Of other people's validation and attention and whatnot. I mean, we did talk a lot about inner child healing work and I think a lot of that plays into this, but I think it's so true. I think we see people chase people in networking activities 'cause it's like they want proximity to people. Yeah. when I worked in the entertainment industry. you would see people chase after celebrities or important producers, or important executives, and they would want proximity to, to those people. They didn't really need anything from them. They just wanted to be associated with them. It would make them feel like maybe they were important too, and they see that happen in our networking communities. Startup communities. Notorious for this. I mean, I'll be honest, I'm definitely guilty of it. I'm so guilty of this. I, I do all the time where I'm like, oh my God, guess who I know? Isn't this great? I have hung onto business cards. They are still in my Rolodex and they might have moved on from whatever that company or job is, but I'm like, but I have it in my Rolodex. Like, it's so stupid. I mean, every networking event that we go to, you and I. Talk to the host. And we exchange information. Mm-hmm. Do I know what I'm going to do with this information? No. But for some reason I want it because in in that situation, they're important. They're the host. Yeah. I mean, people do it with us when we host. I think two people. Yeah. There's that. Like if I just get on this person's podcast, I think a lot of times too, there hasn't been a lot of. Research into, is this actually a good fit? But you've heard things and this person has clout, and so you're just like, oh, I need this one. But then a lot of times either you'll never get it because when you do chat, they realize you're not a good fit. Or you do get it.'cause I've been on certain things and then you're like, oh, like I've been in magazines, nothing has come from it. Oh yeah, there's a, um, a story of an author who went on to a big podcast, I think it was the Jay Shetty podcast, and she later ranted in some forums online about how it didn't bring her anything at all. And, you know, being on a podcast of that size doesn't guarantee you shit, honestly, but. The business coach in me was like, where was your capture funnel? Like Yeah. You had so much opportunity to lead them into things, but also his audience may not be your audience. Exactly. And so even if he gave them the best opt-ins, they're not gonna opt in anyways. So it doesn't really matter how big that audience is. No. So I think a lot of it is to try not to have those goalposts.'cause the other thing is you will keep moving them. I'm notorious for not celebrating achievements and just like, what's next? What's next? What's next? That's a whole other episode of my God, but I feel like, so instead, if you can kind of go into these events just being like more curious, instead of like, I need to talk to this person and I need to get X, Y, Z from them. Well, that's the desperation point, which could be an anxiety response. Oh yeah, for sure. Right. That's the girl who's like, is that anxiety? Yeah, I dunno. Definitely do that. yeah.'cause it's, it ties in with the FOMO too. You might not get another chance, but also this might be the one. If I can just get this, if I can just get this person to say yes, if I can just talk to this person, they'll see how amazing I am. They'll book me on their show, they'll give me all this stuff. I am having such an aha moment right now where I'm like the Hollywood Industrial complex, I think has indoctrinated our American sensibilities into believing the makeover montage and then the one magic break, and then poof, she gets the thing and then roll credits. She's now a success, you know, because that's what we see, because that's what we see again and again and again, and. That's not real life. We covered this in what? Our third episode were they lucky? So many times, but relationships take time. Yeah. Every single one of our guests has come on here and everyone has agreed. Relationships take time. And I love that Micah even pointed out, he's like, even in great relationships, that person's gonna disappoint you. At some point in the course of the relationship, it's the human experience. It's never going to be absolutely perfect. And it's definitely not some movie or TV script. Yeah. Sadly. Sadly, But yeah, tying up your worth into some arbitrary achievement in the end, you'll never be satisfied. Just prolong the anxiety. Longer than my lifespan or like, how many lives are we talking about? Don't like this anymore. the other really big thing that you and I felt was worth pointing out was to figure out what is good enough. You really loved how Micah approached this. I did because it hadn't occurred to me. I'm definitely, we talked about, I'm definitely a, like, just jump in, both feet. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go big. I do know I always have outs. I'm a commitment phobe, so I always have like two exits available to me. But I do like the idea that for people not as adventurous, there are gentler ways. I think we get trained to force things because you know, you grow up in whatever family dynamic you were raised in, and. The little inner child version of you needs so much reparenting. Yes. And love and care. It's astounding. And then you go through school or however, everybody has been touched by some institution. So I don't care if you were homeschooled, I don't care if you went to regular school. Like it doesn't matter. I had a very like halfway untraditional, schooling and upbringing 'cause we traveled so much. But you get touched by institutions at some point somewhere somehow. You need a job. You go work, you are part of an institution and there is a certain amount of this. Non-human entity needing things from you that will at some point rub up on you where it's like forcing you' cause you're like, I'm tired today. I don't feel it today. Which is why so many of us love being our own bosses.'cause you get to control your life and your schedule and all the things. With that comes a whole other host of other issues, which is you now have to find all your clients. You do not get an automatic paycheck every two weeks. You're paying all your own benefits and like all the things on and on and on. But you do get the flexibility of being, like, today I feel kind of like crap, so I'm not gonna try to force myself to do things, but that's not how we just automatically land in that position. And sometimes when you're a business owner, you don't have that luxury either because you're like, I'm either in a season where this has to be delivered or that client paid me a whole bunch of money and it doesn't matter how tired I am, but the due date is the end of this week, and it doesn't matter if it's nice weather. gotta get it done. And so you, do end up doing that, but when it comes to networking, because it is voluntary and nobody's forcing you to do it, I think it's like one of those business activities where you have so much choice. I think that might be the slippery slope that catches people because there is nothing telling you or forcing you that you absolutely have to be there. Other than maybe your internalized FOMO feelings or that you think other people are expecting you to be there or whatever else, the notion of what is good enough for you is so powerful because, like Micah was saying, it could be that you go in and you do a lap and you're like, in, I'm out. Or you make a decision about how big a room you're willing to come into. I felt like that might be one of the best, most easy, immediate takeaways that somebody could take. From this episode, during mental health month, to make sure that you make it a priority to do a little bit of something for you. It's not for other people, it's for you so that your business doesn't end up just being this. never ending, reaching for some day that never comes 'cause you can't find the right clients or you can't find the right money or something. Thinking back and, and listening to you explain it. I actually think on more reflection that somebody who can go, even though they're very anxious and you go in, you walk the lab and you go, I actually think that they're stronger than I am.'cause they can admit this is my limit. Oh. Oh, I know. Oh, that's good. Because I won't allow myself to, like, you force yourself to go. I would, because I'd be like, this is what normal people do. Everybody else can do it. Why can't I? So I'm gonna do it. Oh, see, I, but I think you're strong if you can be like, I am uncomfortable and I'm going to honor that, but I'm gonna try just a little bit. Yeah. Where Micah said like, oh yeah, I'll force myself to do it sometimes. We're going to encourage you to go to the show notes. If you don't regularly go to podcast show notes. I would just tell you that there's a lot of goodies usually in that little section of your podcast player. But in Micah's episode in particular, we've got links to how you can connect to Micah. So if you wanted to work with him, you can, but also we've got a link for his downloadable. it's a worksheet on working with your nervous system in social situations. It's amazing. It's amazing. That's it for today's episode of The Awkward Handshake. We record at Sasquatch Media Grounds in Vancouver, Washington. I'm Megan, co-founder of Fat Cap Design and creator of PDX Spellbound, and I'm Mary. Founder of Sasquatch Media Grounds and Sensible. Woo. You'll find links to everything we mentioned, guests, resources, and ways to connect with us in the show notes on your favorite podcast platform. That's also where you'll get updates on where we're headed next, and when we're inviting listeners like you to join us for guided networking in person and online. Don't be passive. Click the links. Pick better rooms. We'll see you there.