Come for the Romance, Stay for the Community with Grand Gesture Books

What if one of the best “networking spaces” in your city… is a romance bookstore?

In this episode of The Awkward Handshake, we sit down with Katherine D. Morgan, the owner of Grand Gesture Books, a romance-focused indie bookstore in Portland, Oregon that has quietly built one of the most engaged communities in the city.

This conversation isn’t about traditional networking. It’s about what happens when people gather around shared interests, feel safe being themselves, and keep coming back—not because they have to, but because they want to.

Katherine shares how she built Grand Gesture Books into more than just a retail space, how her events bring people together in a way that feels natural and fun, and why romance readers might be some of the best community builders out there.

If you’ve ever thought, “There has to be a better way to meet people…”
This episode might expand your definition of where connection actually happens.

•  How Grand Gesture Books became a community hub, not just a bookstore 
•  Why romance readers show up differently (and why it works) 
•  The power of interest-based communities
•  What makes events feel welcoming, fun, and low-pressure 
•  How Katherine curates experiences that keep people coming back 
•  Why not all “networking” has to feel like networking 
•  The role of storytelling and shared identity in building connection 

Meet the Guest

Katherine D. Morgan

Writer and owner of Grand Gesture Books, a romance bookstore in Portland, Oregon.

Katherine is the author of the chapbook No Self-Respecting Woman, with work featured in outlets including Huffington Post, Bitch Media, LitHub, The Rumpus, and HelloGiggles. Her work has been nominated for Best of the Net, and she’s built a thriving in-person community through her bookstore and events.

Connect with Katherine:

•  Website: https://katherinedmorgan.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/blcktinabelcher/?hl=en

About Grand Gesture Books

Grand Gesture Books is a romance-focused indie bookstore in Portland, Oregon that hosts events, readings, and gatherings for readers who want connection as much as they want a good book.

Learn more + check out upcoming events ➡️ https://www.instagram.com/grandgesturebooks/

Keep in touch! 

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Transcript

0:00

This is The Awkward Handshake, a podcast about networking business and what really happens in the room. We're unpacking the good, the bad, and the awkward, so you can build better connections and get paid. Let's get into it. It's our favorite topic today. You and I are both very big fans of romance novels and literature, and we're gonna talk all about romance. I wonder because today we have the owner of Grand Gesture books in Portland and we're gonna send everybody into that interview in just a moment. But one of the big things that came up in our conversation with Katherine was what specifically reading Romance as a genre can do for you when it comes to networking and business because there's this emotional component that is needed. There's really important concepts around consent and around desirability and conversation, being able to have a conversation like how many times have we've been talking this season about how conversation skills and social skills are desperately needed and we cannot blame it all on COVID. and you see it. You see it all the time where somebody is just. You don't know how often they get out of the house because it doesn't like very often Who let you out today? Yes. Right. Did you escape? Well, I loved this angle. I mean, you and I don't need to be convinced to read romance and we've even had a local group of friends in a very heavily romance reading book club. But romance as a genre is typically one of the most purchased genres ever. It is not just that it is having a heyday right now, which it is, it's having a very big zeitgeisty kind of moment. But it is historically always the most popular genre, and we cannot say it's like, oh, it's just the pink bodice ripper, Harlequin romance cover type things. we've got all different genders and ages and so many types of inclusivity included in this genre. Now, in, that emotional lesson that you learned through it about connection making. In its perhaps highest form, most intimate form can surprisingly teach you a lot about how you operate in the world. Yeah. And I think it teaches you communication, because interestingly enough, what I have been able to glean the one trope people hate the most is miscommunication. We all hate a miscommunication trope.'cause you're like, if you watch it on the tv, you're like throwing your pillow and you're like, just tell him x and you could divert all of this angst and missed opportunities. I think it, it helps people, especially now, and I hate the trope at the moment in. Romantic where they are connected via the mind, and they don't have to use their words because the other person knows what they're thinking. that leads people into terrible places because one is consent, to give you permission to be in my head. But two, I think it doesn't set you up well to say what you want, say what you need, and make sure that it is done. Clearly, and you can't just expect somebody to know you run a business. When you come into a networking thing, you can't expect that you have room for clients. You can't expect them to be like, oh, you know, you're the most amazing person I've ever found. we don't know anything that you need or want, and you're really gonna have to communicate it. So what you're telling me is all the people who have a kink for mind reading tropes need to do a little inner reflection because your love of that part of the storyline is probably reflecting somewhere else out in your real life world. And maybe it's contributing to some of the friction where you're like, how come people just don't know that I exist? Or how come people just don't know? Fill in the blank. Yeah, I understand the appeal of I don't need to work at it. I don't need to effort. Somebody should just know. But like, we don't live in that world, so put on the big girl pants and say what you need. Dare I say, these are complaints that people have in networking. the effort of having to go to a place, the effort of having to explain what you do again, again, again, and again and again, when really you should see it as the opportunity to ab test. did it land the way I want? And if it didn't, okay, I've got a miscommunication trip.'cause they thought I'd do X, but really I do Y Oh, that's so not sexy. No, because they'll give you a job offer thing, you know, like a gig and you're like. I can't, no, that's not what I do at all. Or you'll ca even be like, sure, I can do that. And then you're like, then you're miserable. Absolutely miserable. let's introduce Katherine because her conversation, I mean, we could have talked with Katherine for hours. We could talk to Katherine for days. Like she had so many good mic drop moments. so many words of wisdom to share as a local business owner. So. today on the podcast we have Katherine D. Morgan, who is the author of the debut chat book, no Self-Respecting Woman. Her work has appeared or is forthcoming at Huffington Post Bitch Media Lit Hub, the Rumpus and Hello Giggles among others. Katherine's work has been nominated for. The two best of Net Awards. She lives in Portland, Oregon, where she is the owner of Grand Gesture Books, one of our favorite bookstores here in town. It was so amazing that she came to the studio to come and record because she has a retail shop with retail hours and she's a very busy person. Yes. So with that, thank you Katherine for coming on and here's the episode. Katherine, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for having me. Well, we are so excited because You are the only guest on our season who has a brick and mortar. And as a fellow brick and mortar owner, I love this so much. But then also you're like, Megan's dream guest this season because she's writing a romcom. I think we're gonna have a lot of fun. It's gonna be a good time. we wanted to kick things off and really talk about community, because when we're talking about networking, it's so much about community. Mm-hmm. Like you can't connect with people if you're not in community. you serve a very niche audience. You have a fan base legitimately in your store, but then there's also fan bases. That read. and I'm just gonna kick it off in a very messy sort of fashion here, but like, what do you notice the most that's happening with community and how people are, or maybe aren't connecting because you see it in your store? I would assume, I would say the biggest thing I notice about community is that people don't often realize that it takes a lot of effort to be in community. Like, I think that a lot of people want to be in community where it's like they aren't willing to also show for other people when they're needed. and so I feel like people love to be in community, but they they wanna do it as one sided almost, and it can get really tiring. I speak as like a, you know, like a bookstore owner, but like, people very much like they wanna come into the store, they want you to sell their book, they wanna do all these things, and you're like, okay, I've never seen you before. and it's just not a thing where it's like, you know, they're just visiting, but they're like, you know, they've never seen you before. They may not be supporting you on social media. And then you're kinda like, well, why should I support you? it's a business partnership really. And people often forget that. And then with the community based events, like, you know, we get asked to do a lot of events and it's wonderful. It makes me so happy. it's also really tiring and it's a lot of work and people don't realize it. They don't think about all the logistics that go into doing these things. But it's always rewarding when it happens and people are like, oh my God. Like, you know, we get people who are like, they might be attending their first ever book event and it's with us. that always makes me so happy. It's just like. People wanting to come and see and experience things. And it's also people who, you know, they might be like really shy about coming and they're like, okay, is it okay if I come alone? And we're like, yes. And sometimes we like ask people like, Hey, if you're, if you're sitting alone, raise your hand, mingle with the person next to you. You know, do all these things. And we've had people who actually have come back with other people from events and they, or they'll recognize others. And so, yeah, it's just a lot. It's a lot of both selflessness and it's a lot of having to put yourself out there. And the rejection's hard of course, but that's what it means to be in community.'cause you could be in community and be doing it wrong, or you could be in the wrong community because it's not the community that's for you. And so it's figuring out how to be in community, but also how to show up and put yourself out there. we've talked about it earlier on the season Some of it's performative, very performative, where it's like, oh, I'm so happy I found this space. but really it's, you're there to take. And it's so funny 'cause people be like, oh, like I'm so happy we found this. And it's like, and it's, you could kind of feel the like, energy being weird and they're like mm-hmm. The energy dips. Yeah, it dips.'cause I get the same thing. People are like, oh, I'm so happy I finally found a studio and I can all, I can see the thoughts like a ticker tape across their forehead. And I'm like, you're thinking, how do I get your space for free Uhhuh? How do I do something with you? And I'm like, oh my goodness. but when you foster community, I mean, I think the returns always are Yeah. Greater than the takers. It's always like, it's just a lot nicer because then you're like, okay, cool, this person isn't necessarily using me. they wanna see me succeed as much as I want them to succeed. Yeah. So a Us, for example, a lot of the events that we do are for authors who like, you know, engage with us the most. And it doesn't always mean they buy stuff from us, but you know, they might be shouting us out on social media all the time, or you know, they come in and they're like, oh, I like, I'd love to buy, like, they buy stickers, they buy, you know, things like that. we're not gonna lie, books are expensive. We all know it. but the effort into seeing our stores succeed. And we are always excited about doing the same thing for them. And you host so many events a lot. Girl, your calendar is packed. I saw the calendar. Yeah. Last year was, so like, we hosted 85 authors our first year that we were open. What? Oh my God. And then we were packing the months, it's more than one a week. Yeah, it was, there was multiples a week at times. And then finally this year I was like, I can't, we get to be a lot pickier now and. That is a very interesting notion. but it also means that like, you know, if things don't go right, we just go, we'll try again, again some other time. And then I am also now someone who loves a canceled plan or a canceled event. So I'm like, oh, thank God. Like, I'm tired. How do you find all the authors? Do they approach you or is it like half and half, especially in the first year? Yeah, I mean, a little bit of everything. publishers to us, the publicists always do and or if it's something where it's like, an author might have come into our store, they wanna talk about possibly doing an event or, we see an author who's like, maybe in the neighboring town, see someone from Seattle and they're going, they're releasing a book event. I mean, we pitch them. So it's like, most of the time authors pitch us. A lot of times we pitch. we go on what's called awe in the book world, and we submit event grids is what they're called. And it's basically just being like, okay, how many people do I think would show up for this event? Do I think people would show up for this event? How many books do I think I could sell? why would I wanna host this? Like that kind of thing. So basically you're just like writing a report, so it's a mix of everything and you're like fielding, like sometimes you're fielding like no events for a while, and then suddenly you get like three in like a week and you're like, okay, I have to also space these out. Because if you're doing so many big events, then you're like, okay, the money has to be there because it's, it's a lot. It's very expensive. I think it was so interesting too what you said about like that, are you gonna be a part of the community or not? Because when I started writing my book and then figuring out I'm gonna run this subscription club, and I was like, okay, I might want. These things to exist in bookstores because there's so many in romance bookstores now that mm-hmm. I think Seattle opened for Yeah. In this past year a lot. And I found yours, and the first thing that I knew was like, okay, I followed you. And I was like, I need to get to know them. Because you're right. I can't just say like, take my book. Like, that's so rude. Oh. And so instead it's like, I need to get to know them. I need to go to their events. I need to share whatever they're sharing. I think you shared your engagement so it was like, we gotta stay up to date on this. Mm-hmm. And like, it just never occurred to me. Yeah. To just, to just, we've had do a fly by night and be like, blow my stuff. We've had authors do that before, or like some, like this one author came in and she was like, she's looked at the, like she and her friends looked at the sexual work. I guess her book would've been. And then she came by me and like handed me her card. And she was like, when you wanna stock my books, like, let me know. And then she like sauntered out of the store. And I, when I tell you, I immediately threw that business card away. Oh yeah. I was like, what? What are we gonna do with this? And then we had, we've had authors who just like come in you can always tell they want to speak to the owner. Yep. And then they're like, here's my book. I did a thing, da da da da. And you're like, okay, cool. And then you're also like, okay, describe your book to me. And then they, they flounder and you're like, what makes you think I can sell it if you can't sell it? Like, and then, you know, sorry to say, sometimes there's a bad cover on it and you're like, I can't, like, there's this one book where, I'm not gonna name it, but there's this one book, the premise sounds so great, and it has the, one of the worst fucking covers I've ever seen so bad. I will never tell that person I, someone should it can't be me, but someone should. Because every time I see it, I just go, oh. The fan base of readers is fascinating to me. And I remember when you were opening and word got, I mean, teeny tiny amount of word got out and people were like, A new bookstores happening. There's gonna be a romance bookstore down in Portland. And we were so excited for this and I, think when it comes to business people, who are most of the people listening to this podcast and the networking crowd, I think like people, when they're looking for a good network, they're looking for essentially. A miniature fan base. I think there's a lot to be learned from the bookish community in the sense, so basically everyone needs to hang out at your store And buy stuff. Don't just hang up and buy stuff. Yeah. but like, actually get into, you know, the hobby of reading and engage with the community so that you can understand the nuts and bolts of how somebody becomes enthralled by a particular genre or even just friends within the community. And I'm just wondering, like, if you notice any, you're a business owner and you're also a fan of reading clearly. do you notice any crossover in those skill sets?'cause I'm always looking for those crossover areas. Like from between being like a fan and a reader community and being a good networker. I think that there is a crossover usually. because, romance is one of those genres where it's like, it's a heavy recommendation genre. Yeah. You have to talk to people. I used to actually work at Powell's books and what I loved was when I was running the romance section was like, people would stop in the section, they'd be chatting, they would be recommending books to each other. and that's what happens a lot of my store where it's like, people will see people across the room and be like, oh my God, I love that book. And they'll just like, you know, gab about it. And I think that translates well because it's, that's how, it's just like a simple way to build the community. I do think two things, it's like, people always say that like, reading is solitary and like writing is solitary. And I'm always like, yeah, both of those things can be done alone. You can also write in groups. You could also, you know, join a book club, do ever, but the actual readings should you, you know, you could do that alone, but it's like, what happens afterwards? who are you sharing your thoughts with? and that's why I think that like, you know, platforms like Good Reads, that's why I think it's why it's so popular, because it's like you're sharing thoughts, you're like, you can see what your friends are reading. I think that like, you know, I love Story Graph, but you don't have that community aspect as much because there's no comment section in there. I think that readers who love chatting and experiencing things with others are definitely the people who are better at building community. I think they're better at sharing and like talking about why they don't like things or, you know, and every like, reading is so subjective and loving things is so subjective and, you know, just been romance novels where like, I have not liked them and my friends would've been like, we love them, but at least to an interesting discussion. We're not taking it personally, and that's the same thing. It's like, you know, there's music and books and other things that you love, that someone else may not like. I think that leads to a more how, you know you're gonna, you're gonna handle a business well.' cause I mean, with the fan base, you know, we have a fan base for the store. people, are very encouraging towards our store and they love it. And then, you know, I have a fan base as well because I am the owner of the store and I'm very online as the kids say. but also my staff was also getting fan bases. people will come in and ask for like, Rex by Meg or by Nicki, by Andy. Like, it's just like, that is so And they'll see the names on the shelf talk and they'll be like, oh, okay. Like, loved this one. So like, I'm gonna read the next one on Meg Love. Different things like that where I feel like that's the more community building that I see that goes really well. I think it could be a lot more stressful than it is where it's just like you just being like, I love this book. Who can I talk about with this book? Have you read this book? Like that kind of thing. As opposed to this like big glooming process that everyone kind of figures out, They're super connectors. you know what else I'm hearing? It's trust. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I don't think we've ever talked about trust with super connectors. This concept of super connectors has come up multiple times this season already. And you're talking about it in this like full circle moment here, talking about the reading community. But everything you were describing evolves trust. If you get a recommendation from someone, you trust them enough to give it a chance, even if you don't end up liking the same thing that they like. But then you find people that you trust more and more and more. Mm-hmm. And you're like, I would like Meg's recommendations or whoever's it's like a layering process. You can't go from zero to trust and like one thing. Yeah. Like it repeated exposure. And I'm really thinking like when it comes to, 'cause you're one of our, you're well you are our last guest this whole season. Woohoo. Trophies for you we have hindsight now. On all the previous discussions and guests who've been on here this season. And it seems these themes through the reading community might be summing up best, what good networking is. Mm-hmm. And you might think, oh, it's just readings, or it's just books. But it's not, it's the nuts and bolts of what makes connection happen. And I mean, like, there's a lot, have a more, because we're a more niche store, our trust is also different because people come into the romance store and they have baggage. people tell us things that they might not have told their friends or they, you know, they're just looking for some kind of comfort. And there's also that trust where it's like, it almost feels like, like people always joke that like, booksellers are therapists in a way because people come in and like, I remember when I, after the 2016 election, I was really down sad, and I ended up going to Powell's and just wandering the stacks and I just needed to be Around people, but not necessarily talking to them. And I think that that's a lot of what the store does for people. we will approach you if you want us to approach you. you could, like, I always tell people like, you could tell us whatever you like. but there is a lot of trust in that scenario. And we, that's the, that's why one of other things is I like, I'm very strict with what I recommend. Like there are some books where I'm just like, I've heard this is good, you know, here you go. But like, the things that I love, I value a lot. And so I am less likely to recommend things. Like, I'll recommend something if I'm like, yes. Like this is what I love. This was really funny. It doesn't mean it's always a five star read. Like, I've recommended books where I was like, this was dumb, but I had a great time. Yeah. And like, you know, this was just like a, like, you know, just a great little time. And that's still the same thing where it's like you can trust whenever you come into our store, or you should trust whenever you come into our store or other spaces that like. We have your best intentions. Like, yes, we're trying to sell books because, you know, we're a bookstore, but I'm not gonna sell you something where it could be harmful for you. Or you could like not end up like, it's just something where I'm like, I just need to move this off the shelf. Like, it's not gonna be that kind of thing that I'm doing. But yeah, I think that like, trust is a really big factor in a lot of things. And it should be.'cause that's how, you know, you build a community by becoming closer to people and there needs to be that element of trust. Yeah. I mean, I mean, my brain instantly goes to like the trigger warnings, right? Mm-hmm. there's that trust that, that you recommend this and, and I can see where this genre is unusual and that like, maybe I've had a really bad relationship and I don't wanna see any signs of that in the next few books that I need to read. And so I wanna know like, there's no violence against mm-hmm. Women, there's no like this, you know, like, and it, it is. Putting yourself in a vulnerable position and trusting that that person is not going to like re-expose you intentionally. We've had so many books. Oh. In our book club, we, we have this phrase, now we're like, that should have been an inside thought. Yep. And we're like, what did I just read and I think that needs to be figured out before you write the book. Because like, you know, as a writer myself, I'm like, what are you trying to say? What are you hoping that comes across? And then go from there. Because if you're writing, you're just like, you just wanna have a fun little goofy time, that's fine. Enjoy that. Yeah. But then it's like, you can't make it seem more serious than it is when you're like, this is not. It. Well, I feel like that's where the trust comes into play because indie publishing is so much easier to accomplish now. so the bar is, the bar to entry is lower. so you really do need to rely on trusted resources Yeah. To give you some data. It's not always gonna be right as we know, but it'll at least help you sift through more of it. I think that that is so important. because authors also need to really consider why they're creating something it makes me think of the business community. Like why are you making this, this particular business? Mm-hmm. Like, have you done the forethought? And I just think there's such a nice parallel thought experiment between like why Yeah. Yeah. Because when I was doing the market research With you and, and Tori. Yeah. I was like, where do you find your next reads? And my friend Tori was like, well, it's not from Instagram anymore because I've been burned too many times. Mm-hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. And some people are like, I don't, it has to have like four stars on good reads to even be like considered, I feel like the perfect amount is actually a 3.5. Yeah. Like anything above a 3.5,'cause it's like a four star. I feel like those are the books that could maybe burn me more. Those ones I'm worried about because sometimes they're just a little bit culty. A little too much. And then, yeah, so then like most of the recommendations come from friends. And I think, again, that's kind of that super connector of like, you're at a networking event. you're like, Hey, I need, or you tap your network and you're like, I need somebody who does X, you are gonna trust your friend who's like, I got this person, you know? Mm-hmm. She does this, you're gonna go to them. One of my friends just messaged me yesterday and she was like, she's like, I need a book that will like. Gut me emotionally. And I suggested two of them and she was like, okay, great. I bottom. And I was like, excellent. I was like, you're gonna go for a wild ride with both of them. I was like, I was like, this is the books that I recommended and one was a romance, one was a, a thriller, but I was like, she's going through it. Yeah, no. I was like, baby, you okay? I read, um, something Wild and wonderful, but Anita Kelly and then what? that's the book where like, I finished it, I cried it was all I could think about for weeks and I posted on our Instagram stories that day and I was like, I just read this book and I'm devastated. And I like, and then two people came in late that day and they were like, we saw the book, you talked about. We do need to read it now. So, and I was like, okay, great. Trust it. And then like one of the girls came back and she was like, you were right. it hurt me? And I was like, and it did. And then Anita was like, oh, they're so wonderful, but they're just like, oh my God, thank you. And I was like, yeah, that hurt. Now we're gonna have a support group. It's gonna meet. Yeah, we're reading it for book club next, uh, month. Look at the community. And I'm excited. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna, we're gonna go in our feelings. You're gonna bring tissues. Yeah. Yeah. The store is stalked. Yeah. You get a box, you get, you get a box. If you don't cry, you're outta the club. Well, that segues well into, the events that you hold. Yes. I mean, you really do listen to your community. Mm-hmm. A lot. We were talking before this that, you know, bookstores tend to have, especially modern bookstores, tend to have sort of a typical slate lineup of types of events. But you really listen, like you're even hosting weddings in your space now. Mm-hmm. And I think that's pretty special. Yeah. It's um, which was one of my goals actually when I started the store. Like, I'm a big, I'm a big fan. I say yes to the dress. I won't lie. a lot of the requests we get, ' cause we have to balance it, right? Like a lot of our book events are usually free, but there are quite a few events where we have to be like, this costs $50 to attend and $50 right now in this economy is a lot. and so we try to balance it out a lot with. Like cheaper slash free events. There are events where it's like, this is actually like, kind of like, you know, it's a $50 event. Those are usually more like the offsite events that we like. We have to pay someone to like rent their space. Uh, but we also host, like, we just hosted a clothing swap recently. we try to do, I think right now we're supposed to be hosting a, like a book drive for like a woman's prison. Um, so we're like planning on doing that shortly. So yeah, it's just like a lot of things where people have mentioned it or like, we take a lot of feedback from the community itself where like, you know, we hosted a heated rivalry, um, craft Night as you should. Yeah. Which I, it's very funny 'cause I've neither read nor watched that show. Damn. And it's not because I'm like terrible. It's just 'cause I'm like, I only watched the Golden Girls really? But like people had requested that and we listened and that event, like mind you, that event was like. It was free and we had like 35 spots because it was being hosted in the store and that event's still done in 30 minutes. Wow. And I was just like, I was like, we, I mean, listen, we listen. Like, people were like, okay, can you do another one? So now the employee's gonna host like another craft night soon. And it's just like things like that where we kind of go, okay, how can we make sure that people are enjoying the events? How can we make sure that like, people have the means to do so as well? And like, what does that look like? And for weddings for that, it usually means like, you know, if we have to, like for me it's the only time we charge you is like if we have to close this door. and other than that, it's like, you know, you can bring your friends, you can bring your family. Like we have 35 chairs. I'm like, if you wanna have a micro wedding in the store, sure. Like. It just depends on like whatever thing. But like we, we do a lot of elopements because people are just like, okay, it's just like me and my partner or you know, just so in like, you know, just like a smaller group. And we love that. We're like, okay, great. Like we love, love in all forms. and we just celebrate it whenever we can. And so for people to to want to declare their love and say that they're gonna spend the rest of their lives together and they ask me to do it in my bookstore, it's like, you know, it's a dream come true. I love it. Like, people ask me if I was gonna host my wedding in my store and I was like, one, no, I work here. I was like, I was like, two. Do you think a Katherine Morgan wedding is gonna fit in the grand? Like please. But we hosted our engagement party there last weekend and that was really fun. Fun because I got to fun. I got to see the store through like more of like a, oh this is like a fun event that's actually for my part, like me and my fiance. And that was really sweet. Well, I love that you have been using your space as a third space. Mm-hmm. We were talking about that before we hit record, and how special it is when you get keys to a brick and mortar. You know, as Megan was saying, you could be like, nobody gets to come in here, but those of us who love community, I, I don't know, it would feel like cutting the oxygen off in a room, but at the same time, like, this shit ain't for free. Mm-hmm. And what I'm wondering is with all the events and the people who come through, like some are free, some are paid, how much of that helps translate into sales? Because like your brick and mortar is very different than mine. Like I'll have conversations and make proposals and then clients come in and record. But like you have retail hours and people come and there's product on the shelves and they buy it. I'm wondering for like, for that heated rivalry event, like how many of those people will maybe grow some trust, come back and make future purchases, or did anybody purchase anything on site? Like how does that, how does that work in your space? Or how has it been working in your space? Yeah, I mean, usually that with the heated rivalry fund, for example, like, you know, sometimes it was like the first, I, I actually wasn't there for that event. I was in, uh, San Francisco doing something, but my employees were like, little people were just, they were really excited. They bought other stuff. Like, uh, we, we made sure we had like heated, uh, rival, but like merch, so we had like cute little tote bags and stickers and things like that. And so a lot of that was what was being sold, I think for book events, which are different for us in our opinion. We try to angle and see like how many people are coming. And I'm like, you know, Portland's one of those cities and I think this is all cities, but Portland is where I live, so whatever. But Portland's one of those cities where like, people may not tell you they're coming, but they'll show up and you're like, okay, well I can't account for this. Like, and so we tell people on this, like are, when they're signing up for an event through our store, we're like, okay, great. Even if you're not planning to buy a book, make sure you at least sign up. Because then I could be like, okay, if this person might buy a book, I can add an extra, like five copies there's some times where people think that they'll draw a bigger crowd than they will. And then it's unfortunate because then you're kind of like, now I have all these books and you have three friends who showed up for you. Oh no. And those three friends didn't buy anything. Oh no. And that can be really awkward because on one hand. On one hand it's, it's awkward, awkward for the author because you know, they're sad and you can, you witness the sadness. Yeah. But the other hand you're also having to tell the publicists that nothing sold. there's been a few times where I'm been like, you know, this author's really great, but I'm like, I can't host them again.'cause no one, no one will come out for them. And that's really hard. And it sometimes it, you know, it depends on who the author is. It depends on, we're less likely to host events unless they have a good enough, um, a good enough audience here where they're out of state. Because at least like with a Portland group, like if you're like, you know, I have 12 friends and like I know at least five will come 'cause they're free, then you're like, okay, great. Like I sure we can do that. But if you're like, oh, I'm, you know, from Iowa and like, I don't know anyone here and my book is niche. In a already niche category, you're kind of like, okay. And then you're like, well, you have to choose a, a good conversation partner, and they'll choose like their friend who you're like, that's also not someone who's drawing a crowd. Like it's, it's so much where people don't realize how much goes into it. And that's why, like my time is valuable. Yeah, my employee's time is valuable because I have to pay them I have to make the sometimes the hard decisions of being like, you know, I, I love you, but I can't do this again or do this for you because I don't think anyone will come for you. And that's hard to say to someone, especially like, you know, I usually say it over email, so it's a lot less hard, but I get it, you know, it's a tough thing. But yeah, I think that It can be a really delicate process in the whole grand scheme. And like we are, you know, people consider us a third space and we are one, but at the same time, we're a bookstore. You know, we have to make decisions based on the bookstore. Yeah. And I have to make decisions. it's a weird, we're all talking, like me and my friends were talking about this, where it's like, you know, sometimes you have to be like, okay, what do I sell in the store? And then like, how, how does that work with problematic authors? Like there's some authors where you're like, you know, I, I don't wanna sell you, but you make us a lot of money. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And that money subsidize a lot of other things. Mm-hmm. And so then you get to be put in this like, weird situation where you're trying to decide what to do, but you're like, and like, and I hate to say it, but sometimes it's like, it's really hard and it's really hard keeping a bookstore open, especially in this day and age. And it's really hard. You know, like, it's like people also don't recognize what the book world really is. Like, they think that, like, you know, I've had customers who thought that like, publishers gave me books for free. And I was like, yeah. Like, oh my God, someone asked me that. That was, that was great. I was like, what do you mean? And they were like, well, don't you just like get this for free and you like charge? first of all, what has that ever been a thing that's happened? Like, I was like, do you not understand, like, you think that like, I'm making $18 off this book that you're like paying for. No, I was like, I would be way more financially stable if that was the case. Like, oh my goodness. And then thing too is like when people, you know, look, bring up Amazon, not to me, 'cause they know not to, but they'll bring up Amazon and do other things and they'll like, you know, talk about that. And I'm like, you don't realize how much goes into it. Like, I'm not Amazon, I have a, I have a storefront. I have to pay garbage to go out. I have to pay, like, all these various different accounts. I love my store and I love having a brick and mortar, but it is sometimes you're kinda like, okay, what would've happened if I hadn't done this? Like, what would my life look like? And it'd be a lot more sleep filled nights, to be honest. Mm-hmm. but it wouldn't be as fun. it wouldn't be as fulfill. Which is how you know I'm a business person because I'm like, is it rewarding? Yes. But also am I so tired and sad? Yes. No, this makes me think of so much dialogue. We've heard all season about running networking events and the labor that goes into it. A labor of love most of the time. Yeah. So much love and so much love and, and just like the expectations of people who show up who have never done that before. I think the more all of us have public conversations where they can understand. How something is made possible for them, the better community gets. Mm-hmm. So thank you for being exceptionally honest, because we just need a lot more of that. Yeah. And we're always, like, we tell customers who we're always very honest, like, 'cause the publishers sometimes will be like, you're a Venice. Like they'll, they'll have someone's book event price at like $20 and that that covers the paperback cost. And then I'm like, great. But also now I make no profit because I'm like, well I have to pay my staff, I have to order the books. I have to order their back stock, I have to order the author, author's stuff. And then I'm like, well then I also have to put a deposit down on the space. So it's like, yeah. One of those things. And I tell, you know, I tell the publisher when I ask if customers ask me about it, I tell them. But I'm also like, I show a lot of numbers. Like we hosted. One of my favorite examples is that we hosted, um, this author named Bryn Weaver, who was like, phenomenal. She was a great event. Love her so much. And her, because a, it's a hardcover event. Um, and so for, we were gonna charge, like, I think like the book was like maybe 27 99 or something like that. So our price was gonna be like 30, 35. And like the Alberta rose, we hosted it. The guy sat me down and he was like, you will not make any money off of this. He's like, you need to charge more. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I was like, well, okay. Like, he's like, you should charge at least 45. And I was like, oh, great. And in my mind I was like, okay, cool, we'll charge 50. and he had some doubts at first. He was like, do you think that people like, 'cause it, it was about above 400 space, And he was like, do you think you could sell all this? And I was like, the romance girlies will come for this. Yeah. And he, and what happened? We sold out of it. And I looked at him and I was like, never doubt me again. And he was like, alright, you're right. And so, and that's the thing I love telling white men. I'm like, don't ever doubt me. And they're like, okay. And then they go, you're right. and like her buying her stock alone, I think for, 'cause it was like 400 books buying just the hardcover main book was about eight grand. Oh, oh. And I was like, you know, that was eight grand of that. There was also, there was like a little tied up in there. Yeah. Eight grand in that. A little bit of mixture of like, few of her back stock titles were in that mix as well.'cause we had, we would like publishers, we do most of our orders through Ingram.'cause it's in Roseburg. Mm-hmm. But like for our publisher, we were like, okay, this is a lot of books and, and they give a better discount. So I was like, all right, perfect. We'll do that. Wonderful. my card had a limit on it. And it turns out that like, it got, it was like going through, but then it got kind of declined'cause something else happened. So they were scrambling. I'm panicking, I'm sweating, I'm like bursting into tears in the bookstore. It's a mess. I have to go home ' cause I'm just like fighting for my life for a minute. And it was like, and, but it all came together so worth it. And like, you know, we spent about like, I would say like at least 14 grand on that event. And do I, do we have 14 grand at given time? No. So we had to space out a lot of like payments and money and time and effort and all these things. And it was, and it was a wonderful event. Like people were so happy with it. Mm-hmm. And it was 100% worth it. Like we would do it again. But it was one of those events where I was just like this, this is what you guys need to realize is that I can't charge less than this. Like, even if it's a paperback, you might be like, oh, she could charge a little bit less. And I probably could if I get a cheaper spot, but I. Sometimes you just gotta be like, I'm sorry you like this is the option. And I can't do it. Where it's like, oh, you know, you could have a ticket and just not buy a book. So it's a cheaper ticket. And I'm like, no, you're gonna do this. And then they'll be like, well, can I bring my friend for support? And I'm like, your friend's not a dog. So no. They need a ticket too. They need a ticket too. Babes, your husband as well. I know he's just gonna sit in the bar and drink, but he also needs a ticket. I think it's trying to convey the value. Mm-hmm. You get to go to this, you're never gonna go to this event again. you get to see them, you get to be in a crowd of people. All love the same thing that you do. Yeah. You're gonna make instant friends, you dress up like people come Yeah. With, with little outfits. And they come make it an event. They come with merch and they're so happy and they get to meet the author that they love. And it's like one of those things where I'm like, that's the experience. Like that's what you're paying for. Mm-hmm. Like the book shifts included. That's great. And that's including the price. But it's like, you know, like I've met, so like we got to host Kennedy Ryan. Oh. And that was so impressive. Huge for us. Like, she had never been to the Pacific Northwest before. What? Yeah. We were her f like it was so dang. And I, when I tell you I angled for that event for months, like I emailed her publicist in December and I was like, how do we get Kennedy Ryan here? And her publicist was like, it's Katherine, it's almost Christmas. Like, we're gonna have to talk in January. And I was like, great. And we didn't get that event technically finalized until April. And she came in May. Kennedy Ryan as a black woman. And I don't know if they just didn't know the numbers or they just didn't know who would come, but I was like, I can do this event. And I was like, even if somehow 60 people come, even then, you know, we could still do this event. And I angled and I worked so hard on an event and we out and it was like 285 people. It was this wonderful event. People were crying, people flew from Detroit to come to the event because they were like, the other stops have sold out. So they were like, I can go to Portland, let's see Portland for the first time it. And it was like a room full of, of black women. Which in Portland does not happen. And it was like, it was one of the greatest achievements in my life. Like people were like, what are you doing? Like, who's your next author you wanna host? And I was like, baby, I host a Kennedy Ryan. I was like, I brought, I could die today. I'm good. I tell people, like, sometimes we like post events and people are like, oh my God, you got this author? And I tell people, I'm like, I'm feeding you. I am feeding you so many good events and you should be so happy. this is the cost that goes for feeding events. I'm sorry, but if you want your favorite author to come here, just 'cause you, like, people will post some comments. They'll be like, oh my God, I wish they were coming to Portland. I wish they were coming to Portland. And it's like, great, I need to know that you want this person to come to Portland. Mm-hmm. Even next time, because I don't know that, she may not sell super well in our store, but like if you, or like other people are like, Portland, where's Portland? Then I'm like, now I know. Now I can make that request. Because there's some authors where I'm like, they may not sell well in the store. I don't personally know them, but the people are hyped and I'm just like, you know what? Sure. And we get the event and people come out. I think the other thing too is like people really need to reframe in their mind like. How much do you spend for a concert? Do you get anything for free? no. Do you get a No, there's no merge. Get a you get a seat, but you might not get to sit we've talked about this in the metro Portland region, this is a juicy question. Ooh. But value. There's value behind these things. We have noticed, 'cause Megan and I, we became Yes friends, and we were like, oh, this has a ticket attached. And sometimes we talk about it, like some things it's like, well, I can't afford that right now, or whatever. but if it's within a certain price range, we're both like, yes, I'm buying the ticket. Like, we wanna go to that thing. We'll go together. We went to BookCon, we flew across the country to BookCon. so I don't understand why in this area there's. such a problem with pricing. anything over $20 is expensive. And I'm like, we come from like LA and the Bay. Yeah. So like, we're just used to Yeah. I, I'm just kind of like the money flows. My brothers and sisters in Christ. Do you know what year of the Lord we are living in and the expense of inflation? I'm like, one cocktail will cost you $20. you want community, you want connection, you want, in the case of the business world, you want some clients, some leads, sometimes you can get into a room for free, but if it's free, you are the product. Mm-hmm. And if it's paid, you get more. And there's a cost to making that opportunity available for the person who has gone to the literal expense like you do of putting something together. Why do you think that it's so hard up here. You had people flying from Detroit. dare say, I bet there were people here who were like, oh, I don't think I can do that. And yet somebody bought a plane ticket and got a hotel room and came from Detroit to see Kennedy Ryan. I just wonder do you notice anything owning a bookstore with a very specific clientele? I feel like it's more the line of thought where it's it's like, what all can I get for this? Yeah. And I think sometimes people want a whole smorgasbord of things. and I think it's also too like how not everyone wants to meet their favorite author, which is fine. it just depends on how much you think something is worth to you personally. Like there's some times where, I'll go to a book of it and it's, the book is attached or you know, and I'm like, okay, like I love this author. and I think that Portland has a community where there's, there is a lot of free things to do. Like, you know, PALS will host a ton of free events, always here will host a lot of free events. So there's a lot of free stuff to do. But then people I think also have to remember that like with the free stuff, there comes things where it's like you, you have to pay. And I think that like. There's always someone willing to pay. And what always happens to me is that people will get really stoked about the idea of things, and then it comes out, they, you know, maybe they don't wanna pay, maybe they don't have the money, whatever. and then they, the event gets sold out and then they're like, oh, I wish I could have gone. I was like, well, you could have, I sent you the link and you could have bought the ticket, but you didn't want to and also Portland loved Portland, but it's a flaky town. people love the Flake. And so people will be like, okay, cool, I'll buy a ticket and I just won't go. And then I'm like, why would you spend, why would you spend the $50, if not go? just, like, it depends on all what you're hoping to get out of the experience. Like, you know, I have friends who, like, they'll go to an author event and they'll pay for it, and they, they don't care about being the author. They care about getting the signed book, and that's great. Mm-hmm. And that's a very different experience. And I think that like, people also have the time and they will decide on what is worth for them. You know, there's a lot of things where it's like, you know, for example, my fiance hates, he hates standing in line for things. my Fair Landia episode is about standing in line at brunch because I am someone who, I'm like, okay, I'll stand. I got time. And he hates standing because for him he is like, it's just not worth it. He's like, there's no place in the city where I would stand in line and it'd be worth it.'cause he is like, why would I, why would I stand here when I could just go to my second favorite place? Like, it's just that kind of thing happening. So a lot of people were like, you know, like I may not want to go to the event, but I'll, I know that like grand gestures will have assigned copies later on, so I'll just go there and get that there. But also, and that most likely happens, but there are some times where I'm like, we have five copies left because we sold so much at the event, and then we don't have anything after that. So I think it's more of just like determining what's worth it to you. Which is fine. Like that's a you conversation you could have with you, your God and your bank account. But I don't need to be involved in that conversation. But there's also a conversation to be had. It's like how much of what I it is worth is also worth supporting the place that's putting it on. if you have the means, and let's say, 'cause we also do a thing where it's like, if you buy a book and let's say you get sick and you're like, oh, I can't go anymore. We'll hold your book, or we could ship it to you. You have to pay the shipping, but we'll hold your book. And so that's the thing. And people would be like, oh, I was so excited to support you, but I was like, I got sick and all these things. And I'm like, you did support us. You helped, you bought a ticket and you put you like, and I'm, I'm sending the book to you. So you still, and they always are surprised that we still give them the book. and I was like, why would you not, why would you be surprised? Like there's like you paid for it. Yeah. They're like. They're always like, oh, I, I thought you would've sold it to someone else. And I was like, no, your ticket came with it. and I was, I don't know what, I was like, I don't know who hurt you, but that's rough. That's a rough idea. But it's like things like that where it's like, we've had people have who, who will buy me a ticket and they'll be like, I can't come, but I like, wanna support or like, we ship, to different areas and they'll be like, I, I wanna sign copy from you because I know you're like, you're a big, you're a bookstore. And they're like, but can you ship it to Kansas? And I'm like, yeah, USPS exists. I could do whatever. But yeah, it's just like, it's figuring all that out, asking yourself that question, which also comes back to, you know, the idea of community and also what it, what is it worth to you to. Be a part of this, and if it's worth nothing, that's also, that's fine. But also if it's worth something, that's also fine. and also how do you show up? one last example, we hosted an event with, uh, tomorrow theater. It was, we, it was the 30th anniversary of waiting to exhale. And we hosted this like really cute little like, movie night kind of thing. And like the ticket was a little spender because it included a gift bag that I curated. So like, it came with like a little bonnet or a satin pillowcase. It came with like, you know, like lotion, face mask and candle, it's body scrap. Like it came with a thing and you know, we didn't sell up, but we sold about 50 tickets, which was, They were really happy. I was really happy, you know, whatever. and this lady comes up and it looks like a black woman, and she's like an older black woman and an older black woman will read you the filth. And so I was scared. I was like, please tell me you're like having a good time. And she was like. This goodie bag is great. She's like, this was worth the price alone. Oh. And I was like, that was worth it to her. And she was hanging out with her friends. And I was like, it was worth it alone to you to go see this movie with other black women in this crowd, but also it's worth it for you to like, pay a little extra to have a goodie bag and enjoy this. And so that was also the thing too, where it's like, it's worth it so much to be in community and to pay a little extra if you can. Or, you know, we had some white, like we had some white women who were like, we aren't able to go to this event. But they were like, but we wanna pay to sponsor someone, like a black woman to go, oh. So they like, they bought a ticket and we just posted on our chat where we were like, Hey, like if you can't, if the price is a barrier, reach out to us. Some people bought tickets just for this purpose. And that was really kind. and that's also showing up in community. Yeah. So it's just like all these things that like. There's so many layers of community. Yeah. And you just have to figure out where in the community you wanna be. Oh, that's just such good examples. we were talking about the power of romance. Mm-hmm. As a librarian, I can tell you, having been the head of collections at a library a while back, romance is always the number one genre. Mm-hmm. It comprises easily 75% of the purchasing budget. Without question. And we are having a romance renaissance these days as well, just in the zeitgeist. what do you think somebody who's listening to this episode could take away from something where they're like, I'm like software or something, and it's like, you can get something out of romance too. Like as a bookstore owner who sells romance, what would you tell them? My biggest hot take is, and I don't know if it's actually a hot take, but I was just framing this, this way. I think instead of reading self-help books, you should read a romance, because I think. Romance gives you communication skills. I think it gives you, and you know, you can be like dark romance, like what are you learning there? And I'm like, you're learning about consent and you're learning about your boundaries. And that's, that's something you learn about yourself too, while you're reading. There's some romances where they're dark and you're like, I actually can't handle this right now. And you know that about yourself and you know your own boundaries. That way you could approach other people about your own boundaries. But I think that like, for romance, it's one of those things where it's like it's, great at conversation. It's showing you how to relate to other people that you don't look like. I think if you're only reading romances, if you're only reading the popular romances, you're maybe not learning as much because you're learning what, and you know, and I say this as a romance bookstore owner, you're learning usually what people who look like you, which in most of the cases with romances, white people. and you're learning what they feel and what they think. But what are you else? Are you gonna learn? how do you have conversations about body positivity, about, you know, there's a lot of great romances that have disabled rep, there's a lot of great romances that have queer identity rep. What are you learning and how can you have these conversations with people? Which I think leads to a more open and honest community. Open and honest relationship with yourself. like read a Anita Kelly book and I realized that I was queer and that was huge for me. it was confirmed definitely by that book and also by Love Lies Bleeding, which I saw in the theater and I was like, I have feelings. but it was like, it gave me a great outlook to be like, this is what I'm learning about myself and this is how I'm learning about how I can possibly see the world, how I could possibly talk to other people and who are maybe having the same feelings. People want to often see the reflection of themselves in it, which isn't a bad thing, but also it can't stop there. You have to read books by other people. You have to read books by people who don't look like you, who don't act like you, who don't sound like you. But also you have to read books that could potentially make you better in some aspect. And, you know, like you can have a fun little time, a goofy read, whatever, because, you know, books are for everything. Like, you should enjoy what you're reading, but you should also take that time to discover the person that you wanna be. And like for me, I, I love a series like, like it's an interconnected standalone series. Like those are my favorite because it's like. You're learning about different viewpoints, but every character is like a similar thing. And that's actually great too, because then you get to see how they relate to other people. You're in their head. How did they relate to the character who was before you? It's like when you read like the Babysitters Club. you have your main characters, but each book, like the start of the book was always the same. And they're like, here's the backstory from like all these characters. And then you get to see like, you know, Maryanne relate in a very different way to Kristy and I think people could be really judgy about romance, which is dumb. and also just not interesting. It's just, I don't care. You're, you have a, you have a boring viewpoint. I don't know what to tell you. I'm sorry. in that case I'm like, why do you think it's dumb? Are you thinking it's dumb Because mostly women seem to enjoy it? Are you thinking it's dumb because you haven't never had a romance before? Which case there's books about late bloomers who also you know, have these conversations. I feel like a lot of people wanna project onto it and they wanna, mock it and they wanna think that it's a silly, dumb or genre. So they're like, it's silly and dumb. So I'll read sci-fi and it's like, great, we have sci-fi romances. There's a romance for everything. There's a romance for Shrek, was it? Glory Morning, glory milking farm. It's like romance for anything. And that book actually talks a lot about capitalism. So it's like, huh, look at that. Interesting conversations being had. So that's my always my thing where I'm like, instead of reading self-help, which don't me wrong, we have a small, fiction, non-fiction section in my store because I love fiction and non-fiction and I sell a lot of it, even when I'm not selling a romance. But it leads to conversations where it's like, maybe you're not ready to read a full blown romance, but you're, maybe you're ready to read a novel with a subplot of romance. And then maybe you'll take another step and then maybe you'll take another step. And then, get a lot of customers too, where they feel safe and they, they come in our store name, admit that they had never read a romance and they wanna try. I'm like, and that's big. As long as you come in with an open mind and the willingness to maybe have a fun time. That's great. we had a husband come in ' because his wife reads a lot of romance, and I asked him straight, I was like, well, do you read romance? And he was like, you know, I haven't. And he was like, and I was like, would you be interested in trying one? And he was like, yeah. And I was like, great, you can read this book and talk to her about it. And maybe that's something you guys could have together. You can, you know, act out a scene if you want to. You could talk and like encourage your relationship in a different way and that's gonna do more for you than like, you know, reading the Five Love languages, which men's are always act of service. And I'm like, sir, yeah, we know. But yeah, I think that's, that's my always my thing. I'm just like, give it a shot. a little smooch never hurts you. And also if you're, if someone who's like, you know, I don't wanna read about sex, great. We have romances that don't have sex in them. there's just, there's always something in there. And I think my biggest thing is I'm always like, there's a romance for everyone. You just have to be open to the idea of. Putting yourself out there and maybe falling in love with a book. I would just like to say that there are plenty of male oriented, thrillers and stuff. And they have some pretty raunchy things in there. but the one thing that they are missing compared to, and I love that you said that people project onto Like actual romance is deeper emotion. And business is emotion. Networking is emotion. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So if you can't connect with emotions and that makes you uncomfortable, maybe, maybe that's the problem you're having. So you should go to Grand Gesture and buy yourself a book. Mm-hmm. Yep. Ask for recommendations. Ask recommendations. Yes. We're so good at recommending things. I promise we're so good at it. I don't know about you, Megan, but I had a really, really hard time figuring out what were my biggest takeaways.'cause I was like, all of it. All of it is my biggest takeaway. Yeah. But we pulled out a couple because they were really worth digesting just a little bit longer and making sure that nobody blows by them. we talked about it in the intro about. What romance reading specifically can do for you in networking and business. But we also were digesting our notes after Katherine left the studio about how you're showing up in your community because she made this beautifully put point about are you, you know, basically acting like a connector. Like do you come in generously or are you just taking, and the more you and I started talking about that. We were like, it doesn't mean that somebody is, you know, evil and premeditated and is like, I'm gonna take these things. Like, I don't think that's how people naturally operate because we're humans and we're like, I need this thing right now, and you're thinking about the thing that you need and you may not realize that you're operating in taking mode instead of two-way street collaborator mode. So, I thought it was brilliant. I really recognized and felt very validated as a fellow brick and mortar owner. To, to hear her say those. But I'm wondering for you, in your, networking experiences, I mean, you're also a super connector, but, what do you notice with people when they're not acting like a connector like, how do, how do we help people Figure out what am I on the spectrum of connecting? you know, Dinesh talked a lot about listening. I think you can tell when somebody's kind of hogs the conversation and just keeps coming back to their work. What they do? Them, them, them, that makes it very apparent. Or you and I have seen it too, around if there's like a heavy hitter in the room And it's the moths to the flame. But they just want something. they don't build a relationship first. you know, like I said it in the interview, like, I have thought about approaching Katherine for something and I was not just going to send her an email and be like, take my book. it's definitely like, okay, we need to build a relationship here before I can ask something. I think so many people just walk into a room, walk into an event, take it as a given that that thing exists. It is designed for them. And they don't know the effort that went into making it. They don't thank somebody for the time. what was so interesting was hearing Katherine Digest free versus paid events. But also breaking down all the elements and the cost. It's not like we're looking at spreadsheets, although that would be fascinating to do. I'd be like, Katherine, do you wanna do spreadsheets on YouTube never say never. And I really think that there are so many people who've never stepped into the ring before. even if you considered your gathering or event a flop or it didn't have as clear purpose or whatever, I think it's valuable for somebody who wants to up their networking game to host something. It could be a lunch for a table of four, but instead of always relying on the other person to make the reservation and figure out where you're going, it's like, how about in in the world of romance kink, Maybe you should dom the table, be a dom. Don't be a sub. Maybe you should tell people what to do, where to be, what to do, and like what is the plan? What is going on? you know, I think that so many people are used to being told what to do. And then find themselves dissatisfied. And it's like, well actually in the world of consent, you actually have quite a lot of say in this situation. But you know, if you're always waiting for someone else to do it, then you end up showing up in a very different capacity. and they want the depth of connection that you get from, you know, ringmaster to ringmaster. And it's like, but you don't get that if you're always circus monkey to ringmaster. there's such terrible analogous roles, but they're the ones floating through my head. I'm so sorry. Well, and I think we proved that with this show. you, you mentioned this theory, it's not, you know, this reality to me, and I think I nodded and was like, oh yeah, that makes sense. But the people that we had on the show without the show. Just by going to their event, no, we never could have asked the questions we wanted to ask or made the connections through them that they would've shared if we hadn't come at an equal level. Correct. being a host, you are being generous because you are helping somebody else get some more visibility. We all wanna have the conversation, but that conversation needs a container. Which is the power of podcasting, which is why our business community loves podcasting, but now, the visceral experience of doing it, you know, you really get to see Well, this is a full ton of work. I still remember what was that week two? And you were like, oh my God, how much more do we have to do? I was like, yep, we're gonna do a full premiere week buckle up. many weeks later, you get to see like, oh, I understand. And, it's different when you organize. Well, I mean, you and I know that too from hosting our private coffee parties and a happy hour at this point in a failed networking group. but through all those things like you, even with the failed networking group, there were still deeper connections to certain people who have access to places and spaces around town that we would not have gotten access to any other way. and it just furthers the collaborations down the road. to show up in a giving way. Yes. That you acknowledge is a two-way street and you do what you can sometimes even to give more than the other person is to start. I think you need to, for networking, I've been to a few events where, I always go twice. Yeah. And we made that decision that I am giving more than I am getting. But I don't see that changing. And the ROI is not enough for me to stay and continue coming to this thing. Yeah. And that's not directly communicated with them? No. You know, you don't have that chat with the host or you're like. This sucks. Peace out. I'm going. but I do think you're kind of having to do that assessment with yourself of like, how am I showing up? What am I giving when I'm here? I'm giving all these connections and nobody's giving me anything in return. They're all really scared. They're not playing on the same level. This is not my sandbox and I need to take myself to a different sandbox. this starts to get into our, Other big point that we kept talking about when we were digesting our notes, the notion of trust and how trust is formed it's this undercurrent that runs through everything. And people love romance as a genre because the hallmark of romance is a happy ending. There's a resolution at the end. in the end, the bad guy gets what they deserve. The good people get the right things. You're not left with something unresolved. And we like resolution in our brains. It feels emotionally safe and emotionally good. And I think in business we seek that. Yeah, we want a resolution. Well, in terms of trust too, like if you wouldn't trust somebody to recommend a book to you, are you gonna trust them to recommend? Somebody in their network. Because it starts small, right? Like, yeah.' cause if you're having those little icebreakers and somebody's, I saw this movie, or I read this book, and you go check it out, and you're like, oh, they knew me well enough. the next time you see them, you know, it's, you might exchange a movie, you know, and then it builds from there. I think we have to start with first date, and it's a book. Everything comes back to dating. Well, it's trust. Are they gonna leave you somewhere? are they catfishing Are they gonna make you pay half the bill? If we wanna talk about how romance can help you network. Please don't just go out and hit on people, you and I have seen through the course of the season the struggle seems to be, how do you break the ice? how do you start the conversation? How do you keep the conversation going? And it's not going to be here's my offer, here's what I do. It's gonna be these. Things like book Recommendations You and I one time, asked a group what their favorite piece of media was that they had consumed. And one of the people was just trying to be different as people love to be in this area. And was like, well, I don't watch TV anymore. And I was like, oh, we can never work together. I think all the people I've bonded with recently has been over a book or a movie or a TV show, if you haven't been very interesting lately, maybe this is a great excuse, we have talked with so many people about the romance books we read, and it doesn't matter what your gender identity is, people love something entertaining to talk about, even if it's not something that they engage with. Well, and we should say it landed you a speaking gig. It did. It's like when we used to be kids and like you just needed one thing in common and you'd be best friends. I think having an opinion on something that you love is a way to make fans with other people. You need to go to Grandchester. Go ask for a recommendation because they're amazing at it. Mm-hmm. Go support a local business. Yep. Buy yourself a romance book. You'd be real surprised how happy it will make you. That's it for today's episode of The Awkward Handshake. We record at Sasquatch Media Grounds in Vancouver, Washington. I'm Megan, co-founder of Fat Cap Design and creator of PDX Spellbound, and I'm Mary. Founder of Sasquatch Media Grounds and Sensible. Woo. You'll find links to everything we mentioned, guests, resources, and ways to connect with us in the show notes on your favorite podcast platform. That's also where you'll get updates on where we're headed next, and when we're inviting listeners like you to join us for guided networking in person and online. Don't be passive. Click the links. Pick better rooms. We'll see you there.