Yamil Santana, MS, LPC - The Loneliness of Leadership

Yamil Santana explains that loneliness in leadership often stems from the unique social and psychological pressures of authority. Even when surrounded by people, leaders can feel isolated because power changes how others interact with them—conversations may become filtered, less authentic, or driven by hierarchy. This can make it harder for leaders to express vulnerability, leading them to suppress personal struggles and internalize stress. Over time, this emotional restraint can create a sense of disconnection, even if they appear socially engaged.

He distinguishes between healthy solitude—intentional, restorative time alone—and harmful loneliness, which feels involuntary and draining. Chronic loneliness can impair decision-making, reduce empathy, and negatively affect mental health. Many leaders adopt the belief that they must “carry the burden alone,” often rooted in cultural expectations, past experiences, or misconceptions about strength and competence. This belief can be challenged by reframing vulnerability as a leadership strength rather than a weakness.

Santana also notes that certain leadership styles or personality traits—such as high independence or perfectionism—may increase the risk of loneliness. Trust plays a central role, as leaders who feel unable to confide in others are more likely to become emotionally isolated. To counter this, he recommends building intentional, authentic connections while maintaining clear boundaries, such as seeking peer support, mentorship, or safe spaces for honest dialogue. For leaders currently feeling overwhelmed, the first step is acknowledging the loneliness and reaching out—whether to a trusted individual or a mental health professional—to begin breaking the cycle of isolation.

Yamil Santana is a Behavioral Health Consultant and adjunct instructor with over five years of experience providing individual and group therapy in college settings. He specializes in treating anxiety, trauma, and depression, and has taught psychology courses such as General and Abnormal Psychology. His professional interests include the ethical use of AI in therapy and ACT-based approaches in primary care, and he also supports virtual services and faculty coordination.

Based in Augusta, Georgia, he is a bilingual counselor with a master’s degree in Clinical Psychology from Augusta University. He is dedicated to helping clients share and reshape their life stories, creating a supportive space to work through challenges and achieve meaningful personal growth.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Daniel Badigio Podcast. Welcome to the Forge by Design Podcast. This is your host, Daniel Badigio. Thank you so much for all your support. You can always find us through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and of course our YouTube channel, Forge by Design. Today is a great day to talk about loneliness in leadership. We have the privilege of having an instructor of psychological sciences from Augusta State University. He specializes in individual and group therapy, uh, trauma, anxiety, and depression. So without further ado, it's an honor to present Jamili Santana. How are you, sir?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

I'm doing good. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

It's a it's always an amazing pleasure to know of your history, to know that the great things that are happening, not only in the educational realm, that world that you live in, but also in your personal endeavors. It I'm so proud of you. I really am so proud of you. So thank you for making the time. He said that uh he just came from work. I sure did. So after a cup of coffee and a bustello, I think we are able to do this. Yeah, we will probably end up speaking Spanish along the way. Uh, the importance of loneliness and leadership is such a paramount and pinnacle topic nowadays because people are suffering in their loneliness in their leadership roles. And I'm glad that I brought you in because who else but a subject matter expert expert that can uh take us through and navigate through the psychology of loneliness. How can we start speaking about the topic of loneliness?

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Sure thing. So, Danny, I always like to start by um first defining um you know what we're talking about here in this case will be loneliness. Uh loneliness is uh an emotional state where a person uh finds themselves in some type of distress because um they there's a disconnection between the connection that they want and the type of connections that they have, socially speaking, right? So uh meaning that they wish they had more people around them and uh they wish that those connections were more um I I guess I should say uh genuine, deeper, more rich, um, but in reality they lack that. So that that's how loneliness starts. Um I also like to say that um it is important to talk about loneliness and other emotional health components because one they affect all of us. Um everyone, you know, will experience loneliness in some in some way to some degree or form.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

And I think I'll be the first one to to raise my hand that I've I've journeyed through those valleys of loneliness.

SPEAKER_01 3:10

So it is it's uh uh theme that applies, I think, to to everyone, including leaders, even more so I would say leaders, because leadership, um, when someone's in that position of leadership, they are very vulnerable to loneliness. That being said, is something that often is not talked about because um I know you were saying at the beginning, you know, it's a good day to talk about loneliness, but a lot of people disagree.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

I didn't think about that, but I was saying it in the in the perspective that we're going to provide a tool set to come out of loneliness. Absolutely correct corrected.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

No, but I I think um the the reason I say that is because a lot of times when it comes to themes like this, like loneliness, like I I also do a lot of trainings on suicide prevention, and anytime you know you mention like these terms loneliness, depression, suicide, anxiety, um, people look at you and they're like, make it brief, you know, like we gotta go on to or change the the subject, right? Because um, oh like it brings me down to like just think about like the the uh this topic, this area, right? Um, but uh just because it makes us sometimes um you know feel a little uncomfortable talking about these things, that does not mean that it's not important to the statistically speaking.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

Uh do you see that there is an increase in people that are approaching the psychological uh assistance, psychological help, I mean therapy, uh back in the 80s or 90s? Do you see it increasing or or has it plateaued? Uh, because I would say that if I were suffering from loneliness and I need professional help, uh I think the stigma of being ridiculed, of being uh isolated, you know, look at him, he's got issues about loneliness and all that. Do you see that people are are more now opened to receiving therapy uh than back in the day?

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Um I believe so. Okay. You know, I think back to my experience as a therapist at Augusta University and um when I was a counselor there, even the the years I was there, I think um we were seeing an increase in students um coming to the counseling center um looking for help, looking for support. So um I and I think that's a small you know sample when it comes right to the entire population, but I think it's on par with the trend that that we're seeing. Like more people are coming and and seeking support. I think also generationally speaking, um the younger generations are um feeling more comfortable with the idea of therapy. Um, I mean, if you get on social media, you will notice that it feels like so many people now speak um what we call like therapist lingo, you know, like they yeah, the mental health lingo and so forth.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

I I think our our our fathers or our grandfathers, maybe the the older generation, they would uh counsel us to toughen it up, to to deal with it as a man, to to tackle the issues. And if you showed any sign of vulnerability, if you show any signs that you were letting your guard down, you may may be portrayed as someone weak-minded, maybe someone that has uh strayed from uh a certain goal, a certain path. But even even in my younger days, where I was in in you know, of course, in leadership positions, you know, I myself said, Well, maybe I need to speak to someone regarding this issue of of feeling isolated as I as I grew up the corporate ladder, you feel lonelier uh because of goals and aspirations. But soci I felt that uh maybe society or my social circle were more antagonistic about the subject matter.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yes, yes. I I think um the experience that you had, Danny, is very uh comparable. Yeah, it's it's common. You know, it's um uh you know, still today the stigma of talking about these things exists, which is why I was saying uh, you know, a moment ago that um it it feels like that it's never a good day, you know, to talk about it because it's still you know that that there's still a lot of um conflicting beliefs about like what what you should talk about, what you should pay attention to, you know. And um I mean, as you know, sometimes people think like, oh, if you're talking too much about that, thinking too much about that, aren't you like creating that or making that a bigger issue than what it is, right? Um, and which is not uh true at all. You know, just talking about something does not necessarily make that a bigger issue. Talking about something and addressing something is how you fix it.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

I think you know when people bottle up their uh their emotions or bottle up the fact that they are feeling lonely to a degree, uh, regardless of the the the factors that are creating that those thoughts and emotions of loneliness, uh, if they are unable to, I think we were talking about earlier to to really talk to someone or seek help, uh, whether it be therapy or someone that they can confide in, that compounding effect is what makes people snap. Well, we feel that we were talking about that people go to work with a smile, you know, and you assume that they are okay. Uh people are really good on fulfilling their roles and responsibilities. So I assume that they are okay. They're able to mechanically, maybe functionally, uh societally, maybe in faith, um go through the motions of fulfilling their roles and responsibility, but internally they're suffering. How have you had cases like that where the you know the someone approaches you and says, you know, everybody that you will talk to will tell you that I am stable, I am okay, but I'm here for counseling.

SPEAKER_01 9:19

Yes, yes. I think actually that happens more than maybe you think. Um because I think we we uh in some way, shape, or form, we all perform. We we we all uh take on different roles during the day, you know, like um it's it's very likely that you're not the same at home when than you are when you're at work, when you are managing people, um, when you're with friends, you know, in different circles, you put on a different type of performance, yeah. Personality, yes, yes, a different personality, different vibe, different energy. And that's okay, that's not uh necessarily abnormal, but what sometimes can happen when when you combine that with uh social expectations, cultural nuance, you know, all these things is that in there you become vulnerable to hiding things, you know, because you you you get on this well, you know, at work I am supposed to be um always performing well, you know. I am supposed, uh as a leader, you might say, I am supposed to lead by example, you know, and and and the example is excellence, you know. I want to see excellence, you know, in my organization, so I should always look like I am having a great day.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

So don't yes, and like an avatar. And you know what? I have to confess that I've been there, you know. I have been there many times where you know you everyone goes through uh personal issues, whether it be marital, financial, whatever, whatever the issues may be, and then you show up to a place where they you know performance is is king. You you have to meet certain expectations, certain goals. Uh so as I navigate that, not to not to say that you know people are being hypocritical, but work is not a place where you show emotions. Right. Would you say, would you agree to to an extent? Yeah. I I don't go to I don't go to work to to find someone to a shoulder to cry on or somebody to embrace. I come to work to work.

SPEAKER_01 11:22

To to work and then go home, right? To go home in some ways.

SPEAKER_00 11:26

And same thing. I can we can apply that to to go into a family member's home, a social gathering, a party, uh a professional business meeting, and even in a church environment, people go with a specific golden objective, they fulfill it, but internally they're battling and struggling with this emotion of loneliness.

SPEAKER_01 11:46

Yes, and that and that's where we you know start to talk about balance because that there is a balance to to these things. You can go too much to one side where maybe now you're overcharing, you are uh in some ways um uh you know putting some trauma onto the world that that you lead, you know, and you and you manage for someone else, you know, even outside of leadership roles, this can happen. Um, but sometimes you might do too much of the other, which is that you perform too much, you're putting on this idea that everything's good, everything's fine, even though that's not exactly true, that you are struggling, that you're having a hard time, that you feel very disconnected. You know, another way to think about loneliness is the idea of um feeling unseen. Um so you don't feel seen for who you are and what you're experiencing right now. So if you think about it, if deep inside you're struggling, you're having a hard time, and nobody knows, that is the definition, right? Of like not being seen, not being, you know, acknowledged your experience, the only person that knows about it is is you, therefore unseen, therefore lonely, right? Um but the the reason that is important to talk about these things, uh to to address them, is because at the end of the day, they are a health matter, you know. A lot of people when they think about um emotions, feelings, you know, it's like uh this is that's that's one thing over here. My body and my health is over here, my leadership is over here. It's like all in uh you know, uh we we approach these things like they're in silos, you know, correct, right? Separate, uh not together, not connected, and in reality, it's all one system, especially the mind and the body, it's one.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Statistically speaking, you know, culturally, um uh and I'm I'm really uh don't have the information or the statistics to this. Do you feel that there's certain groups, maybe racial groups or societal groups uh that uh suffer more from loneliness? Perhaps, you know, do the people from South America suffer more for people from the United States or abroad or whatnot? Are they are there certain defining factors that can say that you know, because of maybe poverty uh levels, uh socioeconomic levels, educational levels, uh, you know, when you have these groups together, you have this stratification of groups that feel lonelier or maybe more reserved than maybe groups that are more extrovert or outgoing.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yes, I I think um loneliness can vary across, you know, different cultures, demographic, you know, like you have some cultures that are more collectivistic, you know, like um uh uh for the most part um Hispanic, Latino culture, you know, it's very family-oriented, community oriented. So it seems like you're always surrounded by people in everything you do. You know, you have a birthday, you gotta have like everyone, especially us Hispanics, you know.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

We we have to make uh uh a festive about every you know.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

You gotta make a meal, you gotta have everybody come and enjoy a meal together, right? And um, and and then you have other cultures that are a little bit more individualistic, you know, like uh they they're more about um uh you know, if if if you got something going on, that that's sort of for you, right? Um, whereas you have you know some cultures where like uh and I'll say this, I feel like um I'm I'm just gonna speak for I'm I'm Puerto Rican, you know, and uh Dominican. And uh if we have a family member that goes to the hospital, gets hospitalized, we're all man, we have a group chat, and everybody's you know, it's like you know, but it's not only that, it's not only your family goes there, your friends of the family are also there. If they go to church, you know, now all the church members are extremely. You know, it's so it's it's this thing where um and and growing up in that, um, my assumption was everyone does this, you know, and it's not true. Not everyone, you know, there are um families um where it is uh more of a private thing, you know. So uh you you let the person who's recovering, you know, be in the hospital, get better. You uh they might even think that it's not polite to have a lot of people like show up and and you know, for us, you know, you you don't want them to be alone, not even like one hour. So it's like, oh, they've been alone for too long, you know, like you gotta get someone in there. And so so all of that to say that um it depends too on your definition of um what was good and what's not right based on what you grew up. Now, I'll tell you this uh going back to leadership. Um, in leadership, you will see that culture uh does play a role on how you experience loneliness. So we were just talking about like performance, you know, for example. Um you know, if you think about uh someone who is here in the United States and is a minority and has been climbing the ranks, um I think it's no secret to say that that person uh probably had to work very hard to get to where they are. You know, and and and I'm not gonna get into you know all of that, but let's just go with that, right? Like they had to work really hard to get to where they're at, uh maybe harder than the than other people, you know, in that company. So once they find themselves in a leadership position, they can often feel like there's a lot of scrutiny, you know, there's a lot of people watching, you know, there's a lot of eyes, you know. Um for example, for women in leadership, you know, there's a lot of people who or or there there's this um misconception, um, this thing that's false, you know, that women are just too emotional, you know. So in a in a leadership position, um a woman might feel like I gotta watch my emotions, you know, because they already believe uh this thing about me, right? So I I can I can't prove them right, even though that's totally, you know, uh false and it's just uh a stereotype. Um now you're fighting that and now you're lonely in a way because maybe you are feeling something, but out of concern that you're gonna show too much emotion, you just suppress it. You know, you keep it in.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

You know, um when I was younger, and I've seen this in other people in leadership, whether it be in an ecclesiastic environment or professional environment, is that they conceal loneliness. One of the mechanisms of how they conceal loneliness is the preoccupation of many activities. I'm going to fill my calendar, my work agenda to the fullest. I'm gonna have so many services, I'm gonna be in so many events, social events. Not only you have work events, you have social events, you have church events, you have society events. If you know, I'm gonna preoccupy myself so I can numb that sentiment of loneliness. And as long as I'm I'm occupied, out of sight, out of mind, right? So we we present an avatar, right? You you think that they are extroverts and they're serving others and they're serving in society and they're being good professionals and and all that, but all that to conceal the the symptom of loneliness. And I've always wondered, you know, what what you know what made that person snap? What made that person go from a really high to a really clinical depression, uh, go into alcoholism, maybe uh live uh a very wild lifestyle when you know that they were timid, they were introverts, they were they seemed stable, and suddenly the the before and after is very evident because you know they were they were unable to address the pain of of loneliness. So how how what are other mechanisms maybe people use to disguise loneliness?

SPEAKER_01 19:52

Yes, I think uh one is what you were saying, you know, you can fill your time and stay distracted because the what we know about like emotions, uh uh especially unwanted emotions, maybe unwanted thoughts, is that they often are most intense when you're by yourself, you know. So usually like when you think about anxiety, um uh maybe even some depressive, you know, thoughts. Um people that come to therapy usually tell me, like, Yamina, this is happening when I go to bed and like I can't sleep because all I'm thinking about is I I messed up, I I I embarrass myself, you know, and I'm just replaying back, you know, everything that I that I did wrong.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Well, well, you you see this it seems like a script in my life, you know. Every sometimes after a you know, again in my younger days, and and you know, just it happens, you know, every blue moon. After a conference, you know, you would feel, wait a minute, I just had a successful conference. Yeah. Why might you what when when the lights go out and people go home and you're left by yourself, even here in this in the studio and you're looking, your mind wanders, you know, these these emotions tend to surge. And I I tend to, you know, I I like to be strategic with my thoughts, right? I like to be even with my words, you know, the the the power of life and deafness and the power of the tongue, right? And and and try to mitigate and say, okay, I'm feeling lonely. Why am I feeling lonely? Uh what are the what are the criteria that made me feel? So I go through this exercise, but at the end of the day, um, I would feel uh sometimes ill-equipped to not only uh try to solve my issue by myself, but also sometimes ill ill-equipped to counsel others. How do you go about addressing when someone does open their life to you and regardless if they're a CEO, a pastor, uh a professional, entrepreneur, an artist, author, you regardless of the title, they they come to you for counsel and they really start to peel the onion for lack of better words, and says, Jameen, this is who I am, this is what I'm feeling, I'm I'm A loss, I'm about to hit a brick wall. What is your approach?

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Yes, yes. So you know, um, I'm I'm peeling back the curtain a little bit here, but uh what one of the things that you talk about when training to be a psychotherapist is um that you're not in the business of telling people what to do, right? And that you are not a fixer of problems because that's sometimes an expectation that therapists can put on themselves, you know, that somebody comes to you and they're at a low, you know, and then they come to you on a low, so they're like, fix me, you know, like how many so their expectation is that you know, once once they have a session or two, or how many sessions that you will be able to turn their lives around.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

That's not the case.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

You know, what ends up uh making therapy work, they've done so many different studies because there's so many different approaches to even uh therapy itself, you know, like you got cognitive behavioral therapy, acceptance and commitment, you know, therapy, you have like the whole alphabet, you know, CBT, DBT, ACT, you're like all these different things. There's a lot of acronyms. That's too many acronyms for me to remove. But uh, I mean hundreds of techniques, hundreds of different approaches, you know. And uh the one thing that shows up time and time again in research that leads to improvement and that clients and patients, you know, point towards was the relationship that they had with the therapist. They say, like that helped me, you know, that relationship. So um my my role really when it comes to therapy is on building that, you know, building a connection.

SPEAKER_00 23:43

Do you do you see people that that you know, because not everybody is open to go to a therapist, maybe not everybody from a lower socioeconomic uh background is able, they think of of course is a cost to a therapist. If they if there's if there's 20 sessions, right? If if they say you got too many uh skeletons in the closet, too many background noise, uh, you got a lot of baggage, a lot of trauma, uh depending on the situation. Um you know, for for those people that you know are unable to to afford a therapist, them going to an incorrect source for counsel can actually counteract and actually damage even more their state of loneliness, I would assume.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

Yes, yes. I mean, this is true with any self-treatment that that you do, right? It's like for uh again, if we go back to the idea of health. So if you have a heart condition and you tell yourself, uh, you know, I I don't know about going to the doctor for this, so I'm gonna like look at all these different things. And it's like, you know, sometimes uh you know what you find something that that really seems to kind of like turn it on and work for you. Um, but oftentimes you're taking a risk when you're saying, like, I'm gonna self-treat, you know, I'm gonna do this thing.

SPEAKER_00 24:56

You know, Hispanics, we put VIX on everything. Oh, you you banned. I mean, no, you have VIX under your feet, VIX on your fores, your chest. I mean, VIX is not a it's not VIX at all, and it does not solve any emotional or any headache issue. How how how do you start dealing with a person that says I'm lonely? What what's what's what are the some of the basic steps toward finding and diving deep into the emotion of loneliness in this individual?

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Yes. Well, the first thing is um highlighting what's already been done, which is naming it, you know, like that's a huge step because most people don't take that step to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Well, you mean naming it saying uh like I am lonely?

SPEAKER_01 25:41

Yeah, saying saying it just like that, telling being able to say that yourself and say, I I am lonely.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

And then you're gonna ask.

SPEAKER_01 25:47

That's a really powerful thing to say, you know, and a lot of people don't don't they they struggle, you know, with that because when you perform for other people, in a way you perform for yourself as well. Like you you can start to believe the lie, you know, that everything's fine, you know. Um, so uh this is true with other, you know, mental health concerns, like you got addiction, right? Like a lot of times they they tell you, right, like the first step is to recognize that you have a problem, right? So same same thing with with loneliness, right? Like the the same strategy. The the first thing that we have to do is name it and recognize that it's happening, you know. So I am lonely. Um, that's huge. That already is a lot of the work. Um, the the second thing is to start doing what you have not been able to do, and whether it is in your leadership position or or just at home life, right? And that is to give space to to that feeling. A lot of times we don't give space to to our feelings, right? Because we have this uh uh, you know, almost like defense reflex when every time we feel like yucky or we feel like uh this is not like a good emotion. First thing we do is shut it down, you know, immediately, you know, try to make ourselves feel good. So uh, like you were saying, that might look like someone filling their time, that might look like somebody, you know, grabbing a snack and being like, I'm just gonna eat, you know, like I need to feel better, or or I go and do an activity or something to like, but but it's always this approach of like let me get rid of this thing, but to to numb it, to suppress it, right?

SPEAKER_00 27:21

So the pre uh the occupation of preoccupation. I'm gonna get no seriously, I'm I'm gonna get so busy in my agenda. And it and even you know, I always say, you know, I I like to plan my day, plan my week. I'm a project manager, uh I do a lot of of other things professionally. But one of the strategies that for for better or worse in planning is that if I wanted to suppress my loneliness, suppress, you know, I just get occupied. I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to uh fill my month or or you know with so many things that I have to do simply because it's a scapegoat, those activities are the scapegoat of not wanting to confront or admit my loneliness. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:01

Being still is a skill, you know, like being still is a skill.

SPEAKER_00 28:06

I'll put that on the t-shirt. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Uh so a lot of times um what what I say about therapy is that um sometimes even just taking the time to sit down and going into a new space with an emotion that that in of itself is an intervention, right? Because when you're go, go, go, when you're like doing all these things all the time, um, you you don't let yourself process, you know, what you're thinking, what what you're feeling. So sometimes even just pausing for a second and telling yourself like I'm lonely, right? And talking to uh let's say in this case, you know, we're talking about therapy, talking to a therapist and sharing that, uh, maybe having you know some feedback and understanding about like okay, what was maybe triggering some of that for you, right? Um, that space, that intention to want to understand more, that curiosity, um, that in and of itself is very, very helpful. Because that's the second thing I would say. The the first thing would be name it, name it, you know. The second thing I would say is get curious about it, you know. Um, in in therapy, I want to ask more questions than make statements, you know. So I from a therapist standpoint, for a therapist, I'm gonna ask you a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_00 29:23

No judgment. No, no.

SPEAKER_01 29:24

I I want us to uh be inquisitive, you know, and I want us to be curious in a non-judgmental way, you know, because the more questions you ask, the more likely it is that you will learn something, that you will understand something. Um, but if we get too um, you know, stuck on like, hey, this thing is bad, make it go away, you know, right now, then um we we we shut ourselves up. Um we put ourselves in a position where um there might be something deeper that would be good, but we're treating like a symptom, right? So it's like some sometimes loneliness is not alone as a concern, right? So um it's one of those things where um I I I and and I as a person, as a human, you know, I totally understand that we don't want to, you know, feel um what what we call like these negative you know feelings, these negative emotions.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Is medication part of this? Uh is you know, we have the the therapy of the psychological portion of it, the the QA, diving deep into the root cause of loneliness. Uh assuming that, for example, just as an example, I've never been through uh foster care homes, uh 20 or you know, 10 foster care homes. I've never been through this situation or that situation. But there's another individual that has that comes with a lot of a lot of journeys, a lot of stories, a lot of setbacks, a lot of uh um, you know, letdowns. Uh so you would have to dive even deeper with these individuals that come from these traumatic uh situations with anxiety, especially if they now they also have uh ailments or or uh physical disabilities and and approach you for loneliness. Uh so there's the psychological portion of it. Is there's also also a medication portion of it, or is that not part of the portfolio?

SPEAKER_01 31:18

Yeah, well, if if we're talking about loneliness by itself, um I I would say there there's probably not like a you you have to take this medication and it will make it you know better. Because in a lot of ways, um uh behavioral change is important, so you cannot just put it on on medication. Now, that being said, you know, someone as a uh maybe a byproduct of their loneliness, they're now dealing with clinical depression, they're dealing with anxiety. Yes, you know, medication is definitely on the table. Um, we know from research that um the the best results come from a combination of psychotherapy and medication. Um, and you know, for any other health concern, you usually would think uh about medication, right? Again, like if you're thinking um now now you have things like hypertension, diabetes, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:10

Um again, yeah, byproducts of loneliness, clinical loneliness and it leads to depression, which leads to other illnesses.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yeah, exactly, right? Like it is, it's it's all connected, right? So, and and for all these things, um, you don't want to uh like like if you're having the the issue, the problem, like now we have hypertension, now we're dealing with clinical depression and all these things, is um you you want to treat you know all these things, you don't want to say like well I'm just lonely and that's you know, so I'm just gonna treat this. And no, like as as these things become issues, you do have to uh address them, and that may be um uh well it not may be, it will be a lot of behavioral changes, you know. You have to make changes.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah, you know, somebody again, I'm not uh a psychologist or a psychiatrist. Somebody says I'm lonely. I guess from a friend standpoint, uh if I'm talking to a friend, I'm like, why are you lonely? You're surrounded by people, you have a a good house, you have a good life, you have a good job, you're probably physically fit, uh, you have charisma, you seem to be uh financially well, you have a great academic background. Yes, help me uh the process of elimination as to what what search, I mean what what's causing your I think you know without being without being um you know defend I mean not to embarrass them or you know be insulting, but what what cause why are you lonely?

SPEAKER_01 33:37

I think it's because you you you care, you know, and and I think when we care for other people, we don't want to see them, you know, struggle. So it comes from a place of I want to see you feel better, you know. Um now that being said, that's why sometimes it's um uh you know people tell me like, hey, you mean like could I instead of like therapy, could I just find like a really good friend, you know, and then then I'm I'll I'll I'll do what you're saying, you know, I'll talk about my feelings and all that.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

So there's the therapists and there are the also counselors that help you through your journey. You know, uh so admit admit admit that you're lonely. One, uh you know, you name it. Uh second, uh you start to peel the root causes of this loneliness. You get curious. Uh what is it about without judging, a lot of QA and so forth. Uh you assess their uh their background, would it be the sociogical background, uh the life background, uh marital issues or family and so forth. And and then what's what's the third or fourth step?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Sure. Um after that, so if we're talking um uh again about leadership, um after that we might be talking about comparimentalization, you know, that you know, stratifying comparomate, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Um as the day goes on, uh my language, you know, shorter.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

But um I I think different buckets, different buckets, categorizations, classifications of different things.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yes, yes. So um uh you I think you were saying this, Danny. You you you were saying as a leader, I may not want to just share my problems with everyone in my organization and my team. Um, and and and that's definitely not my advice. I wouldn't say, hey, you know, like the way to to do it is like now you gotta tell them everything. That being said, though, you do still have to do something about the loneliness. Like you you cannot just then perform for your team and then go home and not do anything because it'll follow you. So the the third step is to make sure that that you're taking action, it's so important. Um I I was telling you um earlier before we uh started the uh podcast that um loneliness has been compared to smoking cigarettes when it comes to research. That we've learned that um like uh chronic loneliness in a person is uh about equivalent to a person smoking 15 cigarettes in a day.

SPEAKER_00 36:14

15 cigarettes cigarettes in a day. That's the type of damage.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Is that a pack?

SPEAKER_00 36:19

I have no idea. I've never smoked.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

Yeah, uh yeah, it's a lot of cigarettes, but again, yeah, no, nobody should be nobody should be smoking in in general, right? Much less 15. But but and and of course that's not like a one-to-one comparison, but it's to give you the idea of how serious this is. A pack is 20. A pack is 20.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

A pack is 20. Thank you, producer.

SPEAKER_01 36:44

Yeah, so so about a pack a day, you know. Thank you for that. And it's it's not it's not good for you.

SPEAKER_00 36:52

I felt like I I felt like I was just fact-checked. Thank you, thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 36:57

Yes, yes. And you and you can see this, you know, that there is that comparison. Um, but the reason I'm telling you this, Danny, is because um when you think about like working on these things, on these issues, like loneliness, um, it's not something that's should be optional, it's not something that should be supplemental to the personal work that you do. Um, it's it's necessary because it's uh it's it's organizational risk. You know, like if you're leading a team and you're not taking care of this thing, um, it is going to leak and in some ways uh affect negatively the work that you do and your team members.

SPEAKER_00 37:36

I'm wondering, you know, now that you brought up that, whether maybe you can uh comment in the comment section or uh provide some advice because many organizations, when we have uh health insurance, right? We're talking about health, just you know, your blood pressure, your annual physical, whether or not they provide uh benefits for you to seek you know uh psychological counsel or therapy if there are other issues like like loneliness. Would you say that people can use loneliness as as a tool because they have an empathy or sympathy addiction? So so you know, I I have this, I I need the attention. I I'm I I live and breathe and and nurture on empathy and sympathy. That's my mechanism, and and and loneliness is is how I approach Mr. Jamil and oh woe is be, you know, but when you start talking to the person, you don't have a loneliness issue, you have an addiction to empathy and sympathy. And loneliness is just the avatar to disguise uh uh your situation. Yeah, have you seen that in in your sessions?

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Well, it's it's um how I like to say, you know, two things can be true at the same time, you know, it's like you you you can be lonely, um, and you can use people's sympathy and and empathy, right? So a lot of times it's both because it's like if if you weren't truly lonely, then you don't get a lot from just sympathy and and empathy, right? Um, so a lot of times you know, there there is still some some loneliness component there. Um in therapy for sure, um, we we always approach things by believing the person, right? So if someone comes to me and they tell me that person I'm I'm lonely, you know, I I believe you. So it's not uh I'm not in the position of like, well, let me try to like ask you these questions to maybe this you know say no, no, no, it's not that you you have this issue, right? Um, I mean, we do want to differentiate and rule out, you know, different diagnoses, but it never comes from a place of um scrutiny or like wanting to um no, that's not it, you know, like you it's something else. Um, so but what what I would say is um, and you know, you made me think about um the the idea of loneliness versus you know solitude and how those two sometimes get confused. You know what's crazy? I was uh doing some research preparing a presentation on loneliness, and I um you know I I was trying to like look for like the Spanish uh you know equivalent of these things, and I learned even though Spanish is my first language, I learned that um there's not like a different word for each one. So solitude and and loneliness. Oh in Spanish, oh yes, in Spanish, so so in Spanish, you know, you don't have um this word for loneliness and this word for solitude. Oh yes, that's correct. I never thought about that. So you you just say um uh me siento solo or quiero estar solo, right? Like right. So uh the there and I learned that maybe the correct terminology is to say uh for solitude a solas and then for loneliness solo o soledad.

SPEAKER_00 41:07

Soledad.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Right. Um, but but I it's it's so interesting that even in our culture, um, we have a hard time differentiating between the two. Like we don't have them as separate terms, we just see the soledad, soled that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Yeah, that's that's that's very wow. You you see you that we can unpack that because we I think you know, uh, for example, my the the book writing that I do or any other presentation, uh I use um and I'm not sure if I'm saying this incorrectly. Correct me if I'm wrong. Whether whether I'm saying for me, sometimes I strat uh loneliness is a strategy because I need to focus. There's goals, objectives, aspirations. I can't I have to omit all the distractions around me. I need to focus on this end goal, this outcome. Yes in my my work. You choose to be uh Yeah, I choose to be, you know, just again, uh it's it's a choice. Uh whether because I might be lonely intentionally, uh as a strategy momentarily, but I know that I don't suffer from solitude. I know that uh a friend is a phone call away, a chat away, a text away, an email away, whatnot, a phone call. Uh so uh, you know, it not not that I like to be alone, but there's uh there are moments where you have strategy to my my loneliness. Yes. So so when when you're counseling, you make that distinction. Are you alone or you uh feel solitude?

SPEAKER_01 42:38

So the the difference between the loneliness and solitude, you know, because they're actually like very intertwined. Oh, they're very opposite, opposite, okay. Um, which is that's why I was saying, like, I'm surprised that in Spanish we don't have two different words because they're they're not the same thing at all. So loneliness um is not by choice. You uh it's it's if if you're choosing to be by yourself, um you're looking for solitude, you know. Um, solitude is done intentionally, and solitude can help you recharge. Like if you are practicing solitude, you tend to come out of that feeling a little bit better, right? So like meditation, like meditation, yeah, like um like a conf conf or like a zing zang, whatever they they do, or or like even just you know, I I want to go for a walk, you know, and and then you get up and and and you're not like hey everyone, can you come with me? You're like, I just want to do this by myself, you know. That's solitude because you're choosing that. The loneliness, the reason it's distressing is because you're not choosing, you know, it's it's it you feel unseen, and you don't pick to feel unseen. It's like you it just it's happening, you know, to you, right? Right. So that's why what they're opposites. So solitude is actually something that I encourage. you know I I want you to seek solitude because we all should have some top and some time with our thoughts and ourselves. We all should uh take some time to be with I don't know if individuals that I just can't see them with their thoughts no that's why I was saying you know being still is a skill not everyone can do it or or or feels good about doing that.

SPEAKER_00 44:22

I think there's an art there's solitude.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Oh it's gotta be okay hundred percent it cannot be intentional it's gotta be uh sorry uh non-intentional it's gotta be intentional yeah you know um and you you can uh you know look at uh monks you know that do this right where they have to spend a lot of time like meditating with their thoughts and then they'll tell you like it's not easy you know a lot of people are not cut out to do that so they go on these retreats and they find out and they're like I can't I can't do that like that that's actually work this day and age with cell phones and and everybody with the cell phone it's it's hard for people to to intentionally be in solitude but because there's also a uh this is a different type of emotion but it goes uh sometimes it can go hand in hand with solitude and that's boredom you know like it's good to be bored it's good and and we but we hate that we don't give my producer any ideas yeah no I I I you know some some something it's like you know your wife is gonna say uh what are you doing uh I I'm here literally in my therapeutic boredom you know it's like well you need to paint this and you need to fix that listen um some of the greatest ideas happen because somebody got bored you know and and they just started like thinking creatively right so boredom is an emotion like too much of it right can be like like too much of anything really can be bad but um boredom is still important and a lot of times like in in in our day and age when you have easy access to content all the time it's so hard sometimes to just let yourself be bored because the moment you feel like something doesn't have your attention it's so easy to fix that you know you just pick up your phone you know and and then um now there's almost like this war for your attention when it comes to social media and stuff like everyone wants you to to keep you know scrolling to to have your eyes the algorithm entertain you.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Yeah it's all about entertaining you right because the moment you get bored you close the app and you go somewhere else right so it is there's almost like this war against boredom like everyone wants look over here you know I got something for you I got you know something to entertain you with that's very that's very important because you know they we always try to fill in the gaps and I'm and I myself am uh guilty of this uh again with when you're planning your day whatnot and uh I'm very I'm very diverse sometimes I'm writing sometimes I'm composing and when I get bored of writing I'll do this and when I get bored of this I'm always trying to fill the gap of course I've got my my my time of prayer meditation and and so forth but to your point it's so true. Yes there and these these algorithms I man it's it's amazing uh whether it be TikTok or Instagram whatnot that you click on something and then other similar videos come with the same subject matter. Right.

SPEAKER_01 47:26

I'm a fan of CSI and and every investigating you go down the the rabbit hole of 45 minutes go by and I'm like have I in a blink in a blink you you won't even realize that it's been 45 minutes. Like I um you know for anyone listening I I say this as a homework assignment like go on your phone you can see the time you spend on each I don't want to do that. No do this put a timer on it like for one hour you know and you'll be surprised when you realize your timer keeps going off. You know like you you'll be like sure oh that was an hour.

SPEAKER_00 48:01

You know it felt like 15 minutes you know and and and you have to maybe like snooze you know your your timer I think I'm I'm I'm very good at at controlling my my FaceTime my monitor time because I if you just see my studio I'm a reader I like to read it it it opens uh my thoughts it gives creative ideas woody inventions uh so I'm a reader in my garage I have uh other racks of book racks of bookshelves of a lot of books different subjects I love psychology I love the the the human thought and whatnot so so you have a loneliness solitude and of course the other the another one is is boredom yeah so once once the individual says you go through these sessions of being uh a alone um have you have you seen that there's an improvement and and and that people have been able to recuperate uh snap out of for lack of better terms I'm not sure what the medical terminology or the terminology is uh that they search to to find a newness maybe they go back to their to their happy state or the that how does that look like from a clinical standpoint. Yes yes so that there is improvement you know that and and that's why we do the work right to see uh like a change in the person is there a chart I mean how how do you how do you measure emotional health yeah that's a good that's a good question it's one of the tricky parts of our work because um and and I'm gonna try not to get uh two sidetracked on this but like health insurance companies a lot of times they want us to have like a lot of metrics right so they want to give you a form and they want you to rate you know your emotions so they're like from one to five how lonely are you you know and it's one of those things where it's like are you asking me like right now this very moment or like for like an average of like the whole week you know and and it's it's it's so hard but uh these companies you know they insist like they want uh statistics right so they want to be able to look at data and be like well I'm a data guy so I don't believe no no no yeah no and it makes sense it makes sense and and and to be honest like me as a therapist like I would love to be able to just look at a chart and be like yeah oh that's my that's the work we've been doing you know that there is you came in as a two now you're at a 10 yeah job done yeah so but but the the thing is it's it's so hard to put these things in numbers right um that being said we try you know we we we really try and now when uh the way we measure progress is it is dependent on the person everyone's different right so one of the things we do in therapy is we want to talk about goals you know we want to talk about okay what do you want to see more in your life what what is it that you're wanting to see more when our work is done um let's say how would you know we made it you know like what what would you want to be seeing during your day during your life and that the patient will define that yeah I'm like walk me through that and we can do even some imagination exercises we have something we call like the miracle question which is um I'll ask you uh you know you don't know this about me but I actually can just make everything better for everyone so but you don't know this about me but when you leave here today you you leave you know and you don't not see him anymore I'm gonna snap my fingers and I'm gonna get rid of your problems you know how would you know it happened like what's the first thing that you would notice that will let you know like you mild did something you know something happened you know what what's the first thing you'll see that will like tell you like oh something shifted right uh a lot of times the first thing uh like uh is it placebo therapy I mean you know you get so well when when you think about that you start to then realize what it is that you want to see change right so a lot of times people may have a hard time asked answering that question of like well what is it that I'm trying to change you know what is it that I define as feeling better because your your definition of um happiness can be very different than my definition of what a happy day looks like you know because some person might say you know for me I know I'm happy when I'm running a marathon right um for for me that sounds mis you know like I'm like I'm right you know I'm I I I I don't want to be doing that you know right now but for that person you know that's a goal right so they're like I I knew I was like myself and I was feeling good when I was doing these things so I'm like oh okay so you want to see yourself you know more active you want to see yourself more present you know and have you become more active yeah so we'll track that yeah because because I I rely on the person right uh on their report of how they're doing right so so if I were to have like for example if if if physically or biologically speaking I need a surgery I'm I'm going through an ailment and I need a surgery I I have the appointment I meet with the surgeon he does the operation he we get the medication there's some certain certain therapists or therapy uh then we go back to do some a clinical blood examination and they know that I they I have recuperated because all my signal vital signals are normal my blood pressure this and that the the the the surgery has healed well the stitches are gone so that's their indication that everything went as planned yes in in in therapy for for loneliness you know you say okay we've gone through 10 sessions of of therapy we have dissect we have unpacked we you have defined you as a patient have defined what's happiness for you you feel that you have reached that level where you're content and you don't feel alone anymore is is that somewhere in that realm or yeah so you um I I will say just for the most part you know we we have what we call behavioral health vitals you know so just like you were saying like you have like these vitals that you look at you know like see how your blood pressure is doing you know like okay the medication's working your blood pressure's down uh how would you do that you know in counseling like what's the equivalent of being able to like see something be like it's how it's working it's how we're talking about emotions yeah we're talking about and and and because of that you know in and of itself is is uh somewhat subjective to each person right um what progress looks like but what I was gonna say is um typically speaking in therapy a lot of times uh and and again I'm peeling back the curtain a little bit here but a lot of times we don't track things by how they're not happening right because for example if I tell you don't think of an elephant I'm gonna think about an elephant elephant you're thinking about that elephant right and like if I keep telling you like don't think about it don't don't you dare Danny think about the elephant you know the more I say that the more you're gonna keep thinking about that elephant right so the same thing like if I tell someone like hey just don't feel anxious like don't don't don't have anxious thoughts you know like don't don't think about that thing you know like just don't worry about it like the more I say that the more I build this pressure to not have those thoughts which in and of itself creates those thoughts right so if I tell you track down your anxiety right like I want you to just track how much you're feeling um by just making you think about that all day I may make you anxious but as a byproduct because now you're looking at your anxiety and you're like you know trying to keep track of like how intense it is how it comes how it goes so a lot of times in counseling um we we don't want what we call dead man's goals which is like if a dead person can do it better than you don't want that to be your goal right so that makes that makes a lot of sense yeah so so if if someone who's deceased can do it better than you then that's probably not gonna be a great goal so for example like if you tell yourself I just don't want to feel lonely right like and that's your goal like I just don't want to feel lonely um we we we don't want that to be the the anchor to to our work because guess what the uh moment you realize you are no longer feeling alone it's probably gonna be the moment you think about loneliness again and then it creeps in you know it just has to work so yeah yeah it's not it's not anybody's fault that's just how the mind works you know like so when you think about something you you tend to feel that thing you tend to feel it magnifies it amplifies and so absolutely yeah I had a question that I wanted to ask you because you know there are a lot of people uh family members and just people in general in the in the faith realm that you know if if you go to a therapist that you know you're negating faith why are you alone you know yeah and so many people regardless of your denomination of your belief would feel that if I go to a therapist you know that I am I'm going against probably my creed my belief my ethical core values uh and and they uh negate themselves the the possibility of getting the help that they need yes you know I always say that not everything is is ill well that's that this is the controversy maybe if you want to comment how you deal with this but if I were to say to you not everything is spiritual you know if if uh you know if uh you know if uh if I have an ailment it's not a spiritual ailment I have to go to a doctor to get checked and there's medications and I get better and had nothing to do with my faith or so you know that that's the controversy where I feel maybe there could be a small percentage would it be I I'm uh again I'm I don't want to put a a number five ten fifteen percent maybe globally that people say you know what uh because of my faith if I go to a therapist then I would feel that I'm you know I don't have sufficient faith in in in God or in my in the Bible or whatever uh denomination that you may be yeah do you do you come across individuals that say you know I'm not I'm never gonna go to Jameen because I'm a Christian or I'm this or I'm that yes and and I believe that you know I'm never lonely you know you know you know what I mean that's um how do you how do you what what would be your response to those individuals from a a a a mature a professional standpoint how would you address that question I I this is why I enjoy like doing these things like podcasts you know uh presentations because um oftentimes in therapy if if that's happening what you're saying I won't see them right because they won't come talk to me so then I cannot say what I'm about to say right which is what I want them you know to to hear so if they're listening you know this is important.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Listen and jot down what whatever minutes we have but please um I I uh there's a couple of misconceptions right about seeking help um overall though I think it's important for us to understand that just at the core just being a human you know whatever your faith spiritual background is um I think all of them for the most part recognize that you're a human you know you you you're you you're a person right and just at that level we know that we are social beings you know uh you know even evolutionarily speaking the the people who got to live the longest were the people who found a community if you were in the forest by yourself the odds were not in your favor right so uh you know evolutionarily speaking so there there's healing in community there's healing in community there's healing in bonding with others and connecting with others and I was talking about how leaders it's important for them to do this work because you don't want your um employees to become your therapists right like so um I think about it this way too a lot of people um not a lot I would say some people they can think that oh you know like talking about my issues like feels kind of selfish you know like I'm you know having this person have to listen to all these things all these thoughts and it feels like very self-centered you know um but a lot of times like you taking that time to work on yourself to to recharge to get some guidance um that is an investment but that is also a kind thing to do not only for you but a kind thing to do for other people because if you are doing better guess what that means your family's doing better your company has more of you you know like you're more present you're more focused you're more attentive you're more emotive right like all these things are so important so think about it this way like you don't go to therapy just to work on you but you go to therapy because you know like if you're doing better everyone else is gonna be doing better too your whole social circles your friends and so forth you know there's uh uh a saying that if you change the way you look at things the things you look at change and uh that's yes so it's uh not not a trickery of words but it is it is uh so true that if you change a perspective about therapy you know uh the the receiving the session and the the the treatment of therapy is going to uh impact not only your your mental health your physical health but also all the social circles that you are part of I have a question here it says uh uh kind of to to wrap it up if a leader listening right now feels isolated and emotionally overwhelmed what is the first step they should take to begin addressing the loneliness and and now that we have said name it name it take me through this name it so first we're gonna start by naming it we have to recognize what's happening right because if we we don't put a word to it then we we don't take the step right like you were saying if you tell yourself like I'm not feeling this then step two step three are not gonna happen right so we got to start first with naming it recognizing it right um the second step is to get curious about it and this this is even before therapy you know like start uh you know asking yourself like uh why am I feeling why am I yeah like um um how often is this happening you know is it is happening more in one place with don't don't confuse it with solitude which is strategic right right absolutely yes uh you know and and is it happening more at home you know like I'm I'm home I just feel you know lonely at home you know um leaders have this paradox that begins to happen that as you go higher up in ranks the more lonelier the more lonelier you feel but funny enough the more surrounded you are by people right so it's it's like a as you take on more responsibility it means usually you are managing more and more people right but the more people you have around you you would think that that would mean the less lonely you feel but a lot of times the more people you have around you the lonelier you you feel so it's a paradox right um so and then what happens is and and you you know leaders listening to this or or people who are related to to a leader uh you you can um look into this but you'll see that as someone's goes up in rank sometimes you think that they would be like invited to more social events all of a sudden like the invitations thin out you know like the the the the employees are not inviting you to their like daughter's birthday any you know because it's like absolutely now now you're the boss you know like you're you're the so they're not as open so they're not as open now it and it becomes like a like a mirror thing right where like now maybe the people that work for you or part of your team they all of a sudden like are performing like everything's fine. So then that confirms for you oh I have to do this as well right like I have to join the the the club of everything's fine.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:09

So it becomes this uh issue that the higher you are the more vulnerable you will be to to loneliness um so uh to go back to to the steps you gotta name it right you gotta recognize that it's happening so leaders if you're listening to in order to address the the the isolation and the emotional yes overwhelming you have to name it name it um then then you want to get curious about it ask questions you know and then you want to um uh essentially what I call uh separate it into different parts right classifications categorizations correct yes so what this means is that um you you have to do something about it essentially right so uh you may not be able to fully express the full rainbow of emotions at work um that being said it is important to model what what you want to see right so that means sometimes you do have to be vulnerable you know at work and Danny like if I were to ask you um I'm kind of putting you on the spot but if I were to ask you like describe to me um you know the best boss you ever had you know like what what were the qualities that this person had correct what what what would be some of the first qualities that naturally just come to you well naturally uh disciplined hardworking caring uh uh team team player uh you know actually the best the best bosses were not title oriented they were always they were purpose oriented and that that they took me took me as a mentor and learning that that it didn't matter if I if I had or did not have the corner office if my if I had so many acronyms on my on my business card whatnot uh it was not about titles positions or acquisitions it was about what's the what are the values what's the purpose and and those were my my best bosses because You know, titles aside, we have a culture to develop and and we have a function. Of course, we were in a profit mar you know, in a profit uh environment when it comes to business, but it was more about purpose-driven individuals.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:15

Yes. I think Danny, most people would agree with you with those qualities that those are good qualities to have in a boss and a manager and a mentor, right? Um, notice that you didn't say perfect, you didn't say have it all together, you know, you didn't say emotionless, you know, you didn't say any of those things. In fact, as you're thinking, you know, if you're probably like a most powerful memories with these, you know, people, they probably involved some type of emotion, you know, whether it is encouragement, excitement, um, maybe even you might think of some of the challenges that happened and how you came together, you know, and worked on it, right? So uh we we don't uh uh evaluate good leadership by the absence of issues or problems, but good leadership is being able to address those effectively and productively, right? So uh it's not about all the person that comes to mind is the person that just seemed to have it all together. It was just perfect, all the time perfect. Like that's not the word that came up for you. You you thought about purpose, you thought about intention, you thought about discipline, hard work, right? So going back to to loneliness, it it just means that when you are at work, um, it is still okay to be vulnerable to an extent. You don't have to be perfect, you don't have to be emotionless, you don't have to be like this robot. Um, and you really don't want to do that because it will follow you home, you know. Like a lot of times leaders will find this that they are having like these anxieties about work, but how can I tell my spouse they wouldn't understand the stakes, they wouldn't get it, right? They they they absolutely would just look at it.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:01

Can you imagine going to your pastor and say I'm lonely? Yeah, or well, you're in a leadership role, but you yeah, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:07

But but you have um and and you can uh you know look this up. Like there's so many people in uh influential, powerful positions, you know, that they'll tell you that they struggle with this. So um, like um, I I was uh not too long ago, Elon Musk, you know, who is you know so rich, has access to so many resources, you know. He was saying that his one of his biggest struggles that he's ever had is loneliness, you know. That's uh that it actually that it almost killed him, you know. Um, and so you here you have one of the most perhaps influential, if you want to go buy money, powerful people, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:43

In in the world, richest man in the world, yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:45

Yeah, yeah. And then I and I can tell you that that you know, Elon Musk is probably surrounded by a lot of people a lot of the time, you know. I I I imagine that if not half the world, this guy has so many tentacles in business that uh you know uh and I'm getting sidetracked here, but like I I was you know listening that time at that point is so valuable to uh these people who are billionaires, trillionaires, because even if they stop for one second to pick up something from the floor, that was a hundred dollars, you know, because that's how much they make a second, right? So so it's like so it's every minute is filled with the water.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:21

Well, I desire that for everybody, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:24

Yeah, I know, right? But it's like every minute is um filled with something.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:29

But but going back, you know, to um you know, everyone's the culmination of how you know um so we we unnamed it, we we uh got curious, we stratified it, we and then finally so find find someone, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:45

It doesn't uh just have to be go to therapy, although that's a really good place to start, but it can mean like you know, find find a friend, find someone, you know, that you can bring into your inner circle and you can be vulnerable with, right? Uh remember that loneliness is uh a byproduct of not feeling seen. So find a way for someone to see you, to see what you're feeling, to see what you're actually experiencing, right? So it doesn't it doesn't have to be you know everyone in your company that that sees you, but you gotta find at least one person. Um and it sometimes it starts with you, like you're the first one that has to see it. You know, you're the first one that has to see you for who you are, for how you're feeling. So I say that's the next step, you know. Uh see yourself and find someone that can also see you, you know, and see you for who you are. Uh that that's what that's the work, right? So it's not about getting rid of loneliness, it's not about uh, you know, uh making this emotion, you know, go away, but it's about adding, right? Administrating, yeah, administrating. Yes, and it's and intervening, it's changing, right? So um again, I would say name it, get curious about it, um, you know, categorize, you know, uh find out like where can you go to recharge, to feel seen, and then let yourself do it, you know, be vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:08

You know, let yourself what an amazing and amazing nurturing of information with uh structure Jamil Santana. We have been, I guess, just skimming the surface about all the things that can cause a loneliness. I tell you, as as a as a speaker, as a friend, do not digress to alcoholism or do uh uh any other addiction. Find someone to talk to. If you're a person of faith, consider also professional therapy. It's gonna help you, your family, your health, all your social circles. Uh, there's so much help available for you. So there's no reason to be lonely. Uh find help, find counsel, and give yourself the best opportunity to live the best season of your life. I will see you in the next episode. Don't forget to subscribe to our YouTube channel, put that notification button for the next episode through Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and you are gonna have an amazing year ahead. I will see you then.