Pillow Talk MtG 15: All About Midrange

Welcome to Pillow Talk, the official competitive Magic the Gathering podcast of Team Pillow Fort! This week, Drew Herr helps us kick off a new mini series deep diving into the macro archetypes. Today we're talking midrange! What is it, what does it do, and how does it do it? Thank you as always for listening!

Team Pillow Fort's Twitter: https://x.com/TPillowFortMTG 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:14

Welcome to Pillow Talk, the official podcast of Team PillowFort MTG. I'm your host, Jonathan Johnson, aka Tanuki JJ, and with me as always, Austin Walker. Alrighty, Austin. Fresh off of your first PT appearance, uh we'll we'll talk about that a little bit today, but probably a deeper dive in a future episode.

SPEAKER_02 0:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

But for now, we are going to be starting a new series. Austin, why don't you tell the audience uh what we're doing?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

So we really want to get into some of these um like macro archetypes and talk a little bit about what each of them has to offer, explain a little bit about what each of them are. Uh so we're gonna start off today by talking about mid-range, just in general, uh, but we'll also be talking about control at a later point. We'll be talking about aggro, uh, tempo, and combo. And so we'll we'll have we'll have uh a deep dive with somebody specific kind of from our team to each of those uh macro archetypes uh for for each and kind of get into the weeds about what makes these archetypes what they are.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Perfect. And with us today to talk about mid-range, we have one of our team Pillow Fort admins, Drew Hare. Drew, welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

How's it going, guys? Happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:31

Yeah, it's going well. Uh we get to talk about magic, so there's lots of things that could be worse. Well, let's go ahead and kick this off, and we can talk a little bit about some background and experience, just have some dialogue. But Drew, why don't you kick us off and and give folks a definition in your mind? Uh what is a mid-range deck?

SPEAKER_02 1:50

So to me, a mid-range deck uh is really kind of a perfect kind of mix of aggro and control. Um, we're really gonna kind of get a little bit deep into this, but um, if for anybody who or at like longtime players who have uh ever heard the reference who's the beatdown, um, it's a very famous article by Mike Flores. Um, and a lot of decks you know have the ability to switch between an aggro and a control role depending on kind of how they need to approach a matchup, but mid-range is kind of a an archetype that's built from the ground up to be able to be able to uh pivot between those two different archetypes. So when I hear mid-range, that's uh that's kind of mostly what I'm thinking about.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

So that can be a little bit hard to quantify. And I do think that sometimes we see you know, maybe people call something mid-range or mid-range soup. When and how do you do you really start to see those differences? Can you walk through some critical points that might be examples of you know when it's in the middle of aggro versus control?

SPEAKER_02 2:51

Yeah, so typically mid-range decks are are really looking to win um, well, the mid-game, right? Uh, where aggro decks are really looking to kind of close out the game within the first couple of turns, maybe um, you know, try to empty out their hand as quickly as possible to get a board advantage, whereas control wants to drag the game out as long as possible to be able to uh kind of gain gain that incremental advantage advantage and eventually you know win just through sheer amount of card advantage and and kind of prolonging the game. Uh mid-range is kind of looking for that that middle spot. Um typically they're looking to um really kind of live within turns, I would say, let's let's say four to seven. One of the advantages to mid-range decks is that they are able to play a slightly longer game, so that's kind of an advantage that mid-range decks have uh over aggro decks is once it gets past a certain number of turns, then a mid-range deck is still going to be able to win the game, whereas aggro decks can kind of um fall short a little bit if a game goes a little bit too long, while also being able to kind of pivot on its on its heels and be able to play a little bit more of a assertive game gameplay depending on uh what the matchup is is needed.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

You guys are playing matches in standard right now that go past turn four? Yeah, we're doing it wrong. Yeah, I I guess so. I guess so. So what are some some classic decks that you'd you'd think of? So uh I think a lot of our our audience has probably been playing magic for a while, but some of them might be newer. What are some sort of classic examples of of mid-range in in some different formats, maybe standard, modern, um even Pioneer, if uh if you like Pioneer?

SPEAKER_02 4:27

Is uh Pioneer a real format or no. Just make sure we're on the same page. Yeah, I mean, I I think uh whether you're a longtime magic player or if uh you're you know starting off within the past couple of years, you're probably familiar with with Jun Midrange. Jun Midrange is probably the more famous mid-range deck. Um for those who haven't experienced it, um Jun Midrange was a deck that was in standard. Um there's been a couple of modern uh iterations uh here and there throughout the years, but uh when most of the time when people hear Jun Midrange, you're thinking the Bloodbraid Elf uh mid-range deck. So Bloodbraid Elf and Blightning, um Lightning Bolt, I believe it was uh was playable in that deck at some point. Um Liliana the Veil, uh just a lot of just really good um just really good value spells um mixed with a bunch of really good removal spells, like Jun Charm was was a really good one there. Um more recent example of this, um if you're looking in standard, you're looking to be looking at things like uh like Demir Mid-range. Uh it's probably the uh the the closest true mid-range deck, I think, in standard uh within the past couple of uh couple of years. Um within modern, you're gonna be looking at things like um Boros Energy. Boris Energy is uh is a mid-range deck that I have quite a bit of experience with, um, although my my heart really does truly belong to Yogmoth, which is uh another one of my favorites uh mid-range decks um in current modern. Uh it's debatable whether it's not, it's playable, but um it's it's always gonna hold a special place in my heart. So as far as you know, kind of the in-between, um, Abzan mid-range was also uh pretty big in standard. Um if you're thinking, you know, cards like C D Rhino and Sylvan Sylvan Carry Add and Abzan Charm was a uh kind of the successor to Jun Midrange once uh Jun Midrange kind of rotated out of standard back then.

SPEAKER_00 6:21

I always sort of thought of mid-range decks as if I'm playing a mid-range pile and I'm playing creatures, they're probably just going to be absolutely obliterating everything that I play. And I'm eventually gonna die from a creature or creatures as opposed to you know some solo finisher very, very late in the game. Is that a fair way to assess it?

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Yeah, that's definitely a fair way to assess it. With aggro decks where they're trying to kind of get on the board and and start attacking their your opponent with really kind of anything that you have, as long as it's cheap and efficient. Mid-rage decks tend to look for, as far as their threats, usually a little bit more resilient. So again, you know, using current examples, you can think of something like uh Sentinel of the Lost City or Sentinel of the the Nameless City, I I think. It's the three-drop one of ETBs, you make make some maps when you make some maps when it attacks. So um really high static creatures for their mana cost really helps to kind of hold the line if you're up against the aggro decks, so something with with a lot of toughness, while also being assertive enough to be able to uh proactively uh advance your game plan against the control decks.

SPEAKER_01 7:22

Yeah, when when I think of mid-range too, I think of like really cheap interaction, cards like lightning bolt, uh Thoughtseize, um, you know, the the these types of cards are are like are good at just making sure that you don't die super early to either the aggressive decks or the combo decks. Uh and then and then your your creatures are you know getting you some type of value typically, or they're like very aggressively costed, like your Tarmagoifs, uh like your Bloodbraid Elves, like cards like that are you know anything that has kind of a built-in two for one. Um the Sentinel that you mentioned kind of does a little bit of that. Preacher of the Schism, uh another great example of a current mid-range card. What what are some other cards right now in standard that kind of speak to you as far as mid-range goes? Things that may see play or may not see play. What are what are some things that you think of when you're thinking current standard cards that are that are really mid-range cards?

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Yeah, I mean, the first one that comes to mind, uh, again, if we're gonna be moving more towards the realm of maybe slightly out of favor within the format, is uh is Kaito. Um I think Kaito is a a very good example of a uh of like a true mid-range card. Um it's a relatively costed, um, very potent threat that also provides quite a bit of advantage by itself, and it is uh a very difficult to answer threat as well. So um I think if we're gonna be looking at standard, Kaito is kind of the the poster child for like good mid-range um threats.

SPEAKER_01 8:51

Yeah. If you're gonna put together a mid-range deck, let's say that you know you want to brew something up, what are some deck building elements that you're looking at uh or looking for? Uh things that you want to make sure that you are including your in your deck uh as far as just you know putting something together to to combat the the the format, whatever that might be.

SPEAKER_02 9:10

Yeah, I mean you you kind of alluded to it already, but cheap removal or cheap interaction just in general, I I think is um extremely important for mid-range decks. I don't think you could really have uh a very good mid-range deck without some kind of cheap interaction. So you're thinking things like you mentioned lightning bolt or other cheap removal, cheaper um efficient removal. So things like you know, two-minute removal spells and bitter triumph, stuff like that. Thought seas, I think, is another uh kind of classic example of a really good, cheap interactive spell uh that you're looking for for mid-range. I'm also looking for uh again, just really good, difficult to answer threats. So things like Kaito or really cheap, or not cheap, but um really cost-effective creatures for for what you're getting. So uh I think Soraka's another good example of a of a good mid-range threat where three mana is pretty much the sweet spot for what you're looking for to deploy your threats, and it being a uh a very difficult-to-anser card or creature against the control decks, while also being high enough stats where it's actually gonna be uh a potent enough kind of threat against the aggro decks. Uh so uh really good a good combination of the cheap uh the cheap removal, really good um kind of difficult to answer creatures. You're also gonna be looking for ways to gain advantage. That that's kind of one of the things that that mid-range does really well is um really does win a lot of games by just pressing these incremental advantages, so things like two for ones or um if you're gonna get a mana advantage.

SPEAKER_00 10:38

What do you mean by that? So mana advantage.

SPEAKER_02 10:40

Yeah, so really any way that you're able to s to answer something that your opponent is doing while you're spending less mana than than they have. So um, for example, if your opponent plays a five-drop creature and you're able to kill it with a two-mana removal spell, you've gained a mana advantage there because um even though you're you're trading one for one in actual cards, you are spending two mana whereas your opponent is spending five mana. Um, so it's kind of the the other side of the coin where we look at card advantage, where you're thinking, you know, one card for one card or two cards for one card. Mana advantage is something that that mid-range decks do really well, uh, where they uh again are are might be getting a little bit more bang for their buck with their threats, but they are also typically spending minimal mana, I think one to three mana usually for their their interactive spells.

SPEAKER_00 11:30

So when you look at preferences, I think we all have preferences, but you know, if if we have a competitive player, they're looking at the RC and they're trying to identify sort of like an environment right now with standard, there are several decks that are perfectly viable. It feels like you can play mid-range, you can play combo. Aggro is more debatable. There's definitely some tempo decks, and you know, there's stuff that you can do. What's the draw to playing mid-range over the other options?

SPEAKER_02 11:59

Yeah, so I again I think mid-range plays a really good uh kind of chameleon role in whatever matchup you're looking at. So um it's very easy for a mid-range deck to kind of naturally shift into the control role if you're playing against an aggro deck. Um on the inverse, if you're playing against a control deck, uh typically you're gonna have a good, like um, you know, a good suite of threats to be able to kind of assert yourself into that that de facto uh aggressive role. Um mid-range decks typically, because of inherently they are very flexible in how they approach their matches, typically have uh some of the better cyborg options than a lot of decks. Um because uh again, where you are so easy, it is so easy for a mid-range deck to shift from one role to the other. You can kind of sculpt your cyborg in a way to uh really be able to maximize those roles in the matchup that you're that you're in. So um you know, assuming you're a mid-range deck up against, let's say, a control deck, you can uh have extra options in your cyborg for those either very difficult, um, mana efficient threats, things like um, you know, like I said, Surac or uh things like Leatherhead, right? Um against a aggro deck, you can dedicate a couple of slots to increasing your density of those cheap interactive spells to be able to uh to make it through those early turns uh that the aggro deck is really trying to press their advantage in. So even though mid-range can sometimes uh not necessarily draw the the the cards that they're looking for in the role in the matchup, the sideboard really does do a lot of heavy lifting in in being able to sculpt your deck into the role that you're looking for in that particular matchup.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

So uh how do you how do you know like where your default setting is? Is is there is there a formula when you're looking at your hand or the matchup? I mean, obviously, you know, if you're playing against like a hyper-aggressive deck, um then you you kind of want to lean toward being the control deck, or if you're playing, you know, against some type of blue-white control pile, you you want to kind of default to being the the beatdown, but like what what about when those lines are a little bit less clear? What are you looking for to kind of guide your decisions in the first one, two, three, four turns of the game to decide what your default should be?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yeah, so really does depend on kind of what you're seeing in in your opening hands. Um if I'm uh, for example, up against an aggro deck, um, typically I'm gonna be looking for those interactive cheap early plays. Um if I don't have that, then what I'm looking for is to try to press my advantages and get as much value, like I like I said, either a mana value in uh spending less mana than my opponent in in answering their cards, or finding ways that I can get those two for ones and and really gain that incremental value there. It is also uh you know a perfectly reasonable way to approach an aggro matchup if you are the mid-range deck to um almost kind of sh force your way into that aggro role. Um so uh to to use a current example, if you're up against like an aggro deck and you have, let's say, you know, you're let's say you're playing Boros Energy and you have a very creature-heavy hand that also includes Fage. Um I think Flagge is a really good example of how you can really apply a lot of pressure to your opponent, um, especially if they are the aggro deck, where you can kind of force them into uh more of like the the control role uh with those kinds of hands and really um be able to kind of put them in a in a more uncomfortable uh position. Again, that's kind of where having a wide variety of threats, and especially if they are mana efficient, um, it really does give you the ability to kind of play to the board and uh attack your opponent from the same or or a similar angle that they're looking to attack you from. And if you're forcing, let's say, an aggro deck to play a lot more reactive or a lot more defensive, it's naturally going to be a much more difficult for them to be able to kind of play the game that they want to. Uh and uh again, where where mid-range is very flexible in how they they approach that, it's pretty natural for them to be able to put forth uh a much more um like aggressive or assertive game plan. And depending on the matchup, uh that that can be pretty difficult. In the inverse too, if you uh are playing against a control deck, uh again, there are a lot of ways for mid-range to uh have the tools available to maybe not always necessarily like out card your control players, because that's kind of inherently how the control decks are built, but being able to play your game in a way where you are kind of matching your a control opponent um beat for beat in kind of maintaining the those um maintaining kind of kind of that that card flow, uh whether it's through your own card advantage or by um kind of forcing your opponent into a one-for-one position. So uh again, to use a more specific example, uh think a very like discard heavy hand if you're playing, let's say, a Jun deck and you have Liliana the veil, for example. So really kind of forcing your control player to kind of get in the mud, so to speak, uh, along with you, is you know, uh another way that you can approach those those matchups. I I really do look to, if I am playing mid-range, um, if I'm not able to uh smoothly put myself into the role that I'm looking for, if I'm playing against either aggro or control, look for a way that I can make my opponents play as uncomfortably as they can within the role that they're trying to do. So if I'm gonna be if I'm able to force my opponent into a control role, whether an aggro deck, or to force my controlled player, my control opponents to play a little bit faster or play a little bit more to the board than than they uh normally are natural to.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

Yeah, that's that's really cool. It's something that I that I hadn't really thought about, but uh but it it makes a lot of sense. Um obviously at some point you uh no matter what deck you're playing, no matter what archetype you're playing, at some point you have to be quote unquote the beatdown, right? Like you have to find a way to close up the game. I mean, you know, even the control decks, they have to find a way to actually win the game, whatever that might be. Uh whether it's a big finisher, whether it's your your old celestial colonnades, whatever it is, at some point you are having to commit some amount of resources or turns or whatever to to winning. And so um, you know, as as the mid-range deck, obviously it's it's a lot more uh clear when you want to be the aggressive deck uh against control, because you kind of just always naturally want to be in that spot. Um but when you're playing mid-range against aggro, at some point you're you're gonna have to switch from being the control deck to then being the beatdown. Do you ever have a formula or or is there something that you're thinking about? Is there a window or an opportune time? Uh anything that that might signal to you like, okay, this is when I need to turn the corner? Any type of situations, scenarios, anything like that?

SPEAKER_02 19:03

Yeah, there's there's definitely a couple that that comes to mind. The the first one is I would say when you're kind of put in the position where you you do need to close out the game before your opponent can draw into and out. So um, for example, let's say that you're playing against an aggro deck and you're at a really low life total, um, there are some times where you do kind of need to be assertive in order to try to close out the game before your opponent can get the the last couple cards that they need to finish the game. So especially if if you're up against an aggro deck that has access to some amount of reach in the form of um of burn or uh any other kind of really evasive threats, usually I'm looking for those windows of like, okay, I have you know uh I have a board established, I'm kind of stabilizing the board, but I know that if I give my opponent too many extra turns, then it's going to give them the ability to draw into that out. So that's usually when I'll kind of shift gears and I'll I'll start trying to pressure them and try to get the game uh over with before they can kind of draw those uh those last reach cards. So think if you're at four life and your opponent has maybe one, maybe no cards in the hand, but you know that they have burst lightning in their deck. The longer that you're gonna let that game drag on, the more likely they are to draw that burst lightning. So that's usually when I'll try to flip the switch and and try to uh close that close that window. Similar with control, kind of the the opposite. If I'm able to establish a board and and keep it and get my opponent down on fewer cards, maybe I've been able to, you know, again press that, press that mana advantage, maybe I've been able to kind of disrupt their their natural way that they want to play. So again, think I've gotten them to a couple of cards left in their hand, or maybe I you have access to things like man lands. Like I that's that's another thing I, you know, I I think is a really good, really good tool that mid-range decks have is things like man lands or let's say, you know, recursive threats. That's usually when I'm looking to try to uh to press my advantage there, especially if I've been able to match them card for card uh and I've been able to keep a board, that's usually when I'm gonna start press uh pressing my advantage at that point, and and once again try to get the game closed out um before my opponent has a chance to kind of stabilize and and and kind of get their card advantage flowing again.

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SPEAKER_00 22:14

So as we're coming up to the regional championships, I know one of the things that we spend a lot of time on is our sideboards, our sideboard mapping, and trying to figure this out. And I I have noticed over the years, sort of testing with other people, that everybody has a little bit different philosophy, but I do notice there are some mindsets that people tend to gravitate towards. I think of some examples like the Jund or Death Shadow Mirrors, where people would talk about whether or not you're supposed to board out your thoughts, Jesus, because it's a bad top deck late. Or the conversations around is it correct to take the draw in the mirror match? How do you think differently as a mid-range player in sideboarding? And can you I think we ought to kind of like really take a deep dive into that because you know people sometimes just think, okay, you take out these cards, you take out those cards, they'll say something smart Alecky, like, oh, you take out the bad cards, you bring in the good ones. Sometimes that's obvious, but you know, when it's not, how are you approaching that as a mid-range player?

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Yeah, so I really do try to look for really how I want to or how I envision the game to play out. So I I think the whether or not you keep in thought sees or not, I think is a really good example as well. There are some matchups where Thought C's may not be as good. Uh it may, you know, again be uh a pretty bad top deck, but there are definitely situations where those kinds of effects, uh, however minor, could could could still be good. So if I'm in a matchup where I think that thought sees, you know, just to to to use thought seeds as as an example, uh, if I think it's not gonna be the best, or I think it might not be great in the late game, one of the other things I I try to think about is okay, if you know, worst case scenario, I draw Thought C's on turn six and turn seven, right? How valuable is the information that I'm gonna be getting with this card? Like, you know, plan A, of course, is to just replace the thought season turn one and and and take their spell. But is the thought seas going to gonna give me the information that I need to actually understand how I'm supposed to uh to plan out the the the latter part of that game? So I I do like to kind of keep those uh those aspects in mind. Uh, you know, any amount of of advantage that you can get, whether it's, you know, it that that's like uh an example of getting you know advantage through just pure information, right? Uh it's not the most elegant version of Catactian Pro, but sometimes even just looking at your opponent's hand can give you the information that you need to know when you need to make your plays or or not.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

If Thoughtseize drew you a card, uh I I would probably hate it even more.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Uh yeah, I mean I would I've cast my fair fair share of Thoughtseizes over the years. Um it certainly would increase, I think, if it drew a card. That'd be that'd be pretty nice. Or if Thought Sees had cycling or something, if it had like, you know, black cycle, that'd be chest kiss.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

So I I think some examples, and maybe maybe this is something that might be helpful for for some of the people that listen. When I'm playing a mid-range deck, and let's say I'm playing against control, maybe I'm playing Demir or or Golgari uh with the new Professor Delianfell, and I'm playing against the four-color control deck, the you know, loot or inevitable defeat and Jess Guy Revelation, where you know, if those games go long and they they're just going to out-advantage you. Like you talked about the mana advantage, but if you get to the late game and they resolve their seven mana spell, you're gonna be in a lot of trouble. So as a mid-range deck, you have to find the equilibrium between putting some pressure on them, but also being able to disrupt it. And I think Thoughtseize is an example where yes, there there's times where, say, against like a combo deck, you need to take their critical pieces so you can just survive and not die. But there's also ways where you can sandbag it to later or towards the middle of the game, to where you need to be able to make sure that you can clear the way. Maybe you're you're thought seizing to get rid of a counter spell so you can resolve your planeswalker, or maybe it's something to where you know you're you're doing it to get rid of a removal spell, or you're getting rid of a get lost, so you don't just you know get one activation for your planeswalker and let them get the mana advantage by killing your four or five mana planeswalker for two. And I think sometimes that's sort of sort of how you have to think about it if you're playing a mid-range deck, which is how are you trading resources with that? And is there a point where that card might be dead, or is it going to add value even as a late top deck to say, you know, clear the way for something critical to winning the game? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah, uh I it completely makes sense. I I do think uh something else to keep in mind as well is when you want to see these cards as well. So um I I know we I we kind of keep harping on Thought Seeds, but I really think Thought Seas is like the ultimate like mid-range cheap interactive spell. But you know, for example, like are you in a matchup where you want to see Thought Seas on turn one? Are you in a matchup where you want to see multiple thought seizes, or are you in a matchup where you really only ever want to see one thought seized effect and and really make it count? I think it's something else as a mid-range deck that you want to think about, um, especially where your game plan is so flexible. Uh it could be right to trim down from like four to two of that removal spell to be able to add in, let's say, an additional creature as an additional blocker because it um it's gonna help you press that advantage and it's gonna be more uh more difficult for your opponent to answer. I think that's that's something else to to kind of consider when you're approaching these matchups post-board with with mid-range.

SPEAKER_01 28:03

Yeah, and and I think when when you're looking at like Thoughtsey specifically too, it's important to be keeping in mind how much card advantage your opponent has in these mid-range decks. You know, I mean if if you're playing against a mid-range deck that has some sort of divination, right? Something that is is putting more cards in your hand to to try to just keep the gas going, then then you want to you want to have access to those thought seizes, ideally, if you you can strip those cards from the hand to begin with, but also later in the game, you know, if if your opponent takes some time off to cast a spell that's going to draw some cards, then like Thought Seas isn't going to be a dead card. Your opponent is still gonna have cards in their hand, so you're able to use one mana to just take their best card and uh again, like Jonathan was saying, clear the way for whatever threat you have. Um I think that like the old jund modern decks that we typically think of uh with lightning bolt, thoughtseize, Liliana, uh Tarmagoif, you know, those types of decks didn't have a whole lot of card advantage, especially once they flipped off of Bob. Um and so Thoughtseize was so bad because players get hell bent very quickly. You know, when both players are playing Lilianas, um, you know, both players have access to Thought Seas if they want them. Like you you you very rarely have multiple cards in hand by turn five, right? And so if you're playing those styles of decks, you know, I'm thinking about like the new Golgari decks that really don't have a lot of ways to like recuperate cards short of Delian Fell, then then you know, those are the decks that you don't want to see your thought seizes or your duresses or whatever. Uh but if you're playing against decks that are like mid-range decks that have stock up um or consult the star charts, those types of decks, then then I I still think that your thought seizes and your dresses are fine cards.

SPEAKER_00 29:53

Yeah, I think that's a good distinction. So I I mean another thing that I think of too is sort of the color pie matters a little bit in terms of what kind uh what color base your mid-range deck is. Do you have those card advantage spells? Are you solely relying on planeswalkers? And then how efficient are your uh answers? You know, I think of a card like Erode and a lot of mid-range decks. I I remember, you know, the standard format years ago where they had the the six mana uh Liliana that that you know sack sacked two guys minus and they had to sack two guys. You remember the what was the name of that?

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Liliana Dreadhorde General.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Yeah, Dreadhorde. That was the one they made the video on, right? Everybody loved that that video with the the animation or whatever.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

So Worth Spark video, yeah. That video's dope.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

Yeah. So I think of a card like that where in in that particular standard format, when that card hit the board, most of the time your opponent was losing. Like it was just not good if you got that far. I think that card would suck in today's standard format. Could you imagine hitting six mana, making a zombie, and then having one white erode, you get a basic land out of your deck?

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Yeah, it seems pretty bad. Yeah, that's a no for me, Doug.

SPEAKER_00 31:06

So how how do you so as a mid-range player, how do you take your your preferences and say, well, okay, these are the kinds of exchanges that I'm making. This is what the format's about. We talked about sort of the rules of engagement on building it, but when when are you saying this ain't it, right? So it's it's very difficult to evaluate, but I'm just curious if you know you have some general rules or things that you're looking for to where you can say, like, this is something I can try to mid-range, this is a viable strategy versus yeah, there's one mana planeswalker answers, I'm not gonna spend six mana on this, Liliana.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Yeah, I mean, typ typically for me, and it's uh much easier in situations where you have open deck list uh or if you're extremely well versed in the format. But uh if I'm in a position where I'm playing a mid-range deck and my opponent potentially has access to like, you know, they're they're kind of flipping the script on me where they have the hyper efficient cheap removal spell, my approach is usually to overload their options for using that. So if I'm playing planeswalkers uh against something like a road, um, A, I'm gonna be taking a look at my cyborg and say, well, are there better threats that I can put in instead of this this planeswalker? If there aren't, or if I have access to a lot of those different threats, then I might overload on threats and say, okay, you know, game one, you had these erodes to be able to answer my Lilianas, but now you have to answer my Lilianas and my sister rocks and my leatherheads and my Vivian reads, right? You know, there's only they're only gonna have access to so many answers. So uh I think that's one approach that you can take when you're you're playing a mid-range deck is to uh put them in a position where all of your threats are must answer. Um so they kind of have to choose what threat they want to answer. And because you obviously have the the knowledge of of what's in your hand, how how you're playing out your deck, you can kind of put your opposite your opponent in a position where they might feel the pressure to use those removal spells on something that would eventually win the game, but maybe you weren't um as you know keen on keeping it into the battlefield and then deploying those more uh impactful threats once the coast is clear. So that's that's something else I I look for, especially if I'm in an open deckless situation, is that is I look to see what answers my opponent has, especially in in a sideboard, and say, okay, cool, like how am I going to be able to kind of increase my threat density to put them in a position where they have to use those spells, and then um what am I going to be looking to for to close the game out with with that final threat that they can't answer?

SPEAKER_00 33:50

Yeah, and you have to be able to keep up with whatever the advantage is or get ahead of it or get under it. I mean, there's nothing like thought seizing, thought seizing, thought seizing, and then your opponent top decks treasure crews into treasure crews, and you just get absolutely rolled. You know, there's sort of an evaluation process, I think, that you know, there there are some people will maybe pigeonhole themselves to some degree, and I I know you've played a variety of decks, but say, well, I'm a mid-range player, I'm an aggro player only, or I I only play, you know, ramp decks or this. And I think that there's good good ways to sort of see where you might have to at least pivot to a small degree. And that's you know, Michael and I talked about that in the last episode, but um, I think evaluating from a mid-range perspective, a lot of mid-range players and I'm gonna get a lot of flack for this, some of some of the better players that I know tend to be more mid-range focused because they feel like your decisions matter quite a bit. So you can try to, you know, build your sideboard, build your deck in a way that's going to win in any kind of environment. And they do tend to be very flexible by design. So if you build your deck well for that particular weekend, you know, a lot of times you can come out looking pretty smart, and that's that's fun too.

SPEAKER_01 35:08

Yeah, I I also just think that it takes a very disciplined person to play a mid-range deck well, you know. You you you look at somebody who's just picking up a mid-range deck for the first time and they play their two-drop threat and or their three-drop threat into their four-drop planeswalker, and then you know, the opponent just casts a get lost in the end step after they play their planeswalker and then untap and cast a sweeper, you know, and it's like, okay, well, all of a sudden I was looking really ahead, and then I'm so far behind now, my opponent is you know, up a card, or um, you know, they're they're up on on the mana exchange or whatever it is, versus, you know, if if you just play a two-mana threat and a three-mana threat, and then you just hold back on four and you just keep attacking with those two things, and you make your opponent have the answer for your creature first, and then you know, once they use that that get lost or whatever on their creature, then okay, now now my opponent has cast this removal spell that you know could only or was one of the few cards that could target my planeswalker. Now I'm able to develop my planeswalker. Um, and and you know, kind of taking things slow. I think that that's a really important distinction to be making when you're playing these types of decks. Uh, and I think that that's one of the pitfalls that a lot of people fall into when they're picking up mid-range decks, is they they don't play discipline, they just jam everything in their hand and see what sticks. And um, you know, sometimes it's it's nothing, sometimes nothing sticks.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Role evaluation, I think, is critically important. And I learned some valuable lessons, and you know, I'm gonna give a shout-out to a friend of mine who I do know listens to our show. Uh, so my friend Quinn was my F and M boss for my first little while, trying to get serious about playing competitive magic again. And he would play different kinds of decks, sometimes he'd play combo, but he he did play a lot of Grixis uh mid-range decks. And I remember multiple times just sort of playing scared and not really understanding. He'd have three cards in hand, so I'd be trying to think if he had, you know, some counter magic or or some sort of interaction. And then I remember watching him when I wasn't playing him, and he was doing that, holding three cards, they were just all lands. And you know, he would hold them to almost bluff it, and he would hold resources, or he'd hold back a removal spell and let himself get hit several times until something that really mattered. So kind of picking your role, understanding when a threat really matters and when a removal spell is necessary is is pretty critical. And some of that comes with understanding the format, understanding your deck, and understanding what other kinds of strategies are viable. But I think that's actually a skill that's pretty difficult to get good at.

SPEAKER_01 37:53

Yeah, I agree. And and I think that a lot of it comes down to uh, and I think that we had kind of touched on this or hinted at it earlier, um, but just like having having the macro vision of how am I winning this game? You know, like you you you want to you want to kind of map out how your game is going to play out. Am I am I going to be playing uh a couple early creatures that are going to get removed? Am I trying to kill my opponent with a with a big um you know evasive threat? Or or am I just trying to draw my opponent with card advantage? Like how how how is this game supposed to be played out? You know, what what turn am I planning on ending this game? Um and you know, I I think the better you are at identifying that early, uh, the better mid-range player you are. Um, because you know, if if you are trying to fit outside of that role, uh, then I think that that's when you get yourself more open to getting blown out.

SPEAKER_00 38:51

So, Drew, I got a story for you that'll give mid-range players nightmares. I'm ready. When my when my daughter was young, uh she was about five years old, she got into magic for a little bit. And you know, there was a time where at a GP in Portland, Oregon, uh, she played with Dana Fisher. She helped her kind of learn some, you know, parts of the game and how to play a deck. So I tried to get her something really easy. We were playing modern and she played boggles back when they were playing main deck Leyline of Sanctity. And I taught her to play. We played at home, and there was her first game at FM at our LGS, she played against a famous like notorious mid-range player who was on Abzan. He was playing junk with Liliana Thoughtseize Fatal Push. And I I see his hand as you know, Liliana, Fatal Push, Thoughtseize Inquisition, you know, some lands. And my daughter in her little squeaker voice, you know, I have pregame effects, puts out the ley line of sanctity on the play, plays a slippery boy, and proceeds to giggle while she, you know, talks about putting pants on it and you know just calling each one different items of clothing and absolutely rolled him. Uh, she did this to a couple of grown men who are playing mid-range decks as they're staring at their Liliana that they can't minus because of the uh because of the ley line. So yeah, sometimes you get got.

SPEAKER_02 40:17

I cannot tell you, Jonathan, how many times I have had an opening hand with two thaw seasons in my opponent pregames I laid on a line of and I just look at my hand and just like want to just die. Like I mean, I definit usually did die quick quite quickly because I had a non-functional hand, but yeah, you're giving me PTSD with that story to be honest.

SPEAKER_00 40:36

Nice. I'm glad. I I mean I I did uh I was the bad guy for a while at my LGS's for fun. I played 8 rack, and I I do know there were some people that specifically put Ley Line of Sanctity in their decks because of me. A rather unpleasant uh experience that at the time I thought was interesting and you know fun, but looking back, it was probably not creating the most uh the most welcoming environment for the LGS. But yeah, that was a little little good good bit there for our mid-range players. And you know, I think this gives a little bit of a breakdown of kind of how to think about mid-range decks and you know some some pros and cons. Do you have any sort of last or or parting pieces of wisdom for uh people who are interested in playing mid-range for for their upcoming RC or RCQs?

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Honestly, if for anybody who's looking to dip their toes into playing mid-range as an archetype, um, I would honestly suggest if you aren't already trying to play limited a little bit, uh, you'll hear from uh a lot of limited aficionados that um in across multiple different sets is that basically every limited deck is a is a mid-range deck. Um and and you will start to kind of see how some of these philosophies kind of uh kind of come into play when you are playing playing limited. So before you invest, you know, however many hundreds of dollars into a mid-range deck, try just doing a quick draft. Try playing with this that the you know these in mind, some of these tips, and and see if you are enjoying that gameplay, then maybe dip your toes uh, you know, maybe get up to you up to your knees in the in the mid-range, the mid-range world.

SPEAKER_00 42:15

Every good limited deck is a mid-range deck. And then for those of us who build bad limited decks, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:21

I've definitely had my fair share of aggro decks in limited too, but most of it's most of the time they tend to be mid-range.

SPEAKER_00 42:26

Uh yeah, there's time where that times where that stuff comes together. But I think that the principle you're getting at, and this is kind of what I meant when I said earlier that a lot of the players I know who are very good at magic or probably default mid-range players, that learning how to attack, how to block, how to value your removal spells, how to understand what threats matter, and sort of board evaluation and and values and two for ones, those that's how you win limited games in in most cases. And I think that that's sort of the heart of a mid-range player. So that makes a lot of sense. Alrighty. So we're coming to the end of the episode, which you know what that means. It means it's closing time, and you've got to take a deck home. Drew is our guest, we'll let you go first. Why don't you give us your picks in standard and modern? Uh, we have an RC coming up. What decks are you taking home?

SPEAKER_02 43:18

Uh, we're looking at a standard RC. Um, I'm usually gonna default to any of the cub decks. I just love mana generation. Uh, I also think it's probably the the best, one of the best examples or one of the best position mid-range decks in in the format. Um, so for an RC for standard, if I was gonna be in Cincinnati, I won't be able I'll be in DC, but uh I would definitely be sleeping up some some badger mole cubs for our modern players uh in for their for their RCQs. If you want to have your best shot at winning, I would say probably just play Boros. Um I was extremely close to playing Yogmoth in a RCQ today, so that's uh gonna be another kind of pet recommendation. For myself, uh again, if we're we're looking for a mid-range deck. So I'd say, you know, my my my head tells me to play Boros, uh, my heart is absolutely telling me to go some Yogma to start activating some Soul Cauldrons.

SPEAKER_00 44:12

Fair enough, fair enough. Austin?

SPEAKER_01 44:15

Man, uh, I think I'd probably be on Blue Red Spellamentals for standard. Um, I think that that deck is really cool, has a lot to offer. Uh I think it's kind of a sneaky mid-range deck. You know, it's it's not it's not very obvious that it's mid-range on the surface, but I think that it does kind of fit in a lot of those elements. And then for modern, I think I'm gonna go with the uh blue-green birthing ritual deck. Uh, I was just at an RCQ today. I was judging, I didn't get to play in it, uh, but man, there were just so many decks in the room that the Simic birthing ritual deck would have eaten alive. I think that that's probably where I would have wanted to be today. So that's gonna be my pick for today.

SPEAKER_00 44:54

I loved that deck. Uh very, very, very fun deck. Um in standard, I would also pick, is it spellamentals? I specifically like the Dom Harvey list that he won the challenge with. Uh having the the stallions in the sideboard is a really nice juke around the graveyard hate, which can be problematic. And notably, it's an elemental, so you can still at least somewhat discount your Sunderflocks. So I think that deck's pretty cool. The Prismari charms I think have really overperformed in my testing. That's really nice interaction to hold up, it's quite flexible, but being able to surveil to draw a card to fill your graveyard really turbos out those hearth elementals and uh reminds me a little bit of the Telerian terror deck in Popper. And it it feels kind of Delvery, but uh it's like a cross between a tempo and mid-range. It's a it's a really interesting deck, and there's a lot of decision points. So I'd I'd say Spellamentals for me. And in modern, I mean, if I'm being real about what I'd register, it's still Emery Cutter. I I love that deck, I think it's cool. But I think if I were picking today, I've had a couple friends and teammates doing really well with Belcher. I think that deck's pretty cool. The win rates have been really good, and I think the matchup spread is is uh quite attractive. I think loses to affinity pretty hard, but for the most part beats up on uh a lot of what the format's trying to do.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Belcher won our RCQ today.

SPEAKER_00 46:23

Shout out Damien uh moves to Tennessee and then just starts crushing RCQs. Finals his first one and uh wins the second one. So not bad. Alrighty. Well, thank you all for coming to our pillow talk.