Pillow Talk MtG 19: All About Combo

Welcome to Pillow Talk, the official competitive Magic the Gathering podcast of Team Pillow Fort! This week, Austin, Michael, and Damien talk about all things combo. Join us as we talk about creature combo, spell combo, and control combo decks. Thank you as always for listening!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:14

Welcome to Pillow Talk, the official podcast of Team PillowFort MTG. I'm your host, Austin Walker, and with me today, Michael Killily. Alright, Michael, back again. You guys may have noticed that we skipped a week last week. We're gonna be moving to every other week for the next little bit. So uh don't look for a podcast episode next week, but the week after we'll be back with you again, and uh we're just gonna take a little bit of a breather. Everybody's got stuff going on, and so we're just trying to space it out a little bit. But today with us, we've got uh a combo player. We're gonna be continuing our series with the different archetypes. Uh so we've we've got Damien from Team Pillow Fort who's gonna be talking to us about combo. Welcome Damien. Hi, how's it going? It's going good, going good. Now you've been playing combo for quite a while now, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:05

Yeah, I've been playing combo in multiple formats for quite a few years.

SPEAKER_02 1:09

And you've been doing really well recently too, right? You've got a bunch of RCQ top eights since you've moved to Tennessee within the last couple months, all on the back of Belcher, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Correct. I've played in 11 RCQs since I've moved, and I've top aided the last 10 of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

Can you teach me your ways?

SPEAKER_02 1:29

I don't have any top eights this season, so uh you're you're doing better than me. Uh and then you've also had uh a handful of challenge top eights, uh, as far as I know with Belcher, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

Right. I top aided the first one I played when I moved, and then in about the last year and a half I have six total with Belcher.

SPEAKER_02 1:48

Nice, so you you definitely know what's going on with combo. Um so talk to us a little bit about what the difference is between a dedicated combo deck and a control deck or a mid-range deck that just happens to have a combo finish.

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Alright, so a dedicated combo deck generally tries to send assemble one or or uh two or three pieces to kill their opponent, whether that's Lotus Bloom, Goblin Char Belcher, Deceiver Xark, Splinter Twin, and a mid-range deck that has a combo in it, generally out of creature combo decks, is a deck that tries to apply pressure in different ways to make their opponent interact while also having to respect the combo kill out of nowhere.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

When it comes to combo decks, do you think that the combo kind of has to be game-ending, or is synergy enough of a a reason to be considered a combo? Like can two cards just go really well together be a combo, or do you actually need to make sure that these two cards or three cards, however many, are putting the nail in the coffin, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 2:59

I generally see a combo as something that wins the game or gives you so large of an advantage that you can't lose the game. Like Ice Cron Scepter with Orm's Chant is an example of that. But I don't see something like a Johnny Goblin Bombardment as a combo. I see that as a very inter strong interaction that progresses your game plan.

SPEAKER_02 3:23

Sphinx's Revelation gives you uh so much card advantage that you uh you basically can't lose the game. Is Sphinx's Revelation a combo? Yeah, that's the best combo ever. Love that character.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Sphinx's Revelation with a bunch of lands, yes.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Yeah, right. Um so when when you're playing a combo deck, what do your early turns look like when you're trying to set up for a combo? I mean you can't just do nothing forever. So what what types of game actions are you looking to take while you're playing a combo deck?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

Right. So it's quite a bit different for each variation of combo deck. So a creature deck or a creature combo deck, they generally try and develop their mana with mana creatures like Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, to kind of build into the mid-game to where they can start uh presenting the three and four drop more impactful cards that make their opponent answer them, uh so you can find a window to resolve something like a quarter crawling or a collected company to put together your combo and kill your opponent out of nowhere. And then as far as a spell-based combo deck like Storm, they generally try and set up their hand with cantrips, whether that's Periodane, Searum Visions, or recently in Ruby Storm, they've been using the impulse draws like Ren's Resolve and Reckless Impulse to kind of build up a critical mask that allows them to keep going with their combo.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

And so, what types of hands are you looking at when you're looking at your opening hand when you're trying to you know play these spell combo decks?

SPEAKER_00 5:01

So, with something like Ruby Storm, you generally want to look for about two, sometimes three lands, a cost reducer, Ruby Medallion or Ralph, and then maybe a ritual, and then a couple of these like impulse draws. So you can keep building your resources while having the explosive start.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

So on the flip side of that, if you got a creature-based combo deck, what's your ideal opening seven kind of looking like?

SPEAKER_00 5:29

Right. So a creature-based combo deck, I'm just gonna use like Yoggmoth for an example. Uh, you generally want to have a mana dork, and then sort of a payoff, whether that's like grist or yogmoth, and then like a two or three drop, just sort of value creature, whether that's like Orkish Bone Master for that deck, Drangle Root Geist or Young Wolf, and then you want a couple lands, and then like a card that helps you find your combo, such as like quarter calling or greens and zena.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

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SPEAKER_02 6:10

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SPEAKER_03 6:32

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SPEAKER_02 6:38

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SPEAKER_03 6:45

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SPEAKER_02 6:51

That's game night in Columbia, Tennessee, where the community actually shows up. So when you're building a combo deck, um, like let's say, you know, we're we're looking at Belcher, for example. Uh, Belcher really only has one plan, right? Like, plan A is just Belcher. And sure, I I know that you can get in with your phalogies, and I've heard horror stories of players killing their opponent with a single phalogy uh over the course of 20 turns somehow. Um, and I I know that you've done it recently. Uh, but you know, for for all intents and purposes, we're we're going to just say that Belcher has a plan A and no real plan B. Uh, but when you're building these combo decks, how do you know like when your plan A is good enough and when you should be looking for a plan B?

SPEAKER_00 7:36

So the combo decks that generally have a pretty good plan B built into them again is these creature combo decks, where you get to just play a fair mid-range plan and have your combo sort of looming over them. The downside to having that fair value plan is you're less dedicated to your combo, and that therefore generally makes it a little bit easier to break up your combo. And then for combo control decks, their only way real way to win the game is generally through the combo, but they get to play a lot of interaction to get them towards their combo or stop their opponent from winning in the same time.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

So, like Belcher has lots and lots of interactions, so you're just trying to assemble your combo while keeping your opponent off of you know the the things that's going to win them the game and also the things that's going to prevent you from winning. Correct.

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Do you think that the amount of effort you put into coming up with like a secondary plan is directly related to say how easy your primary plan is to interact with? So, for example, uh with Ruby Storm, for a while their graveyard hate was pretty prevalent. And so they'd be wishing for uh storm scales on that sideboard, almost to the extent that that became the normal win condition for a bit, but belchers never really had any secondary option, but at the same time it's pretty difficult to interact with a belcher uh or interact with Lotus Bloom, especially game one. Uh so do you think that there's any relation between like how easily those combos are to disrupt or how prevalent the disruption is and how necessary it is to go like really deep into a plan two, plan three, uh, over the course of an event?

SPEAKER_00 9:35

Yeah, so the combos that are a little bit harder to interact with, such as Belcher, you generally don't need a plan B. Your plan A is good enough, backed up by all your interaction. You did mention there are some ways to interact with, like Lotus Bloom and Belcher that are quite sh hard to fight through, but there are ways, such as consigned to memory. It's a counter spell that you can copy multiple times, which makes it really hard to interact with on the stack. But Belcher has a lot of good ways to get through that. It's usually were of invention to just cheat them into play, so you don't actually have to open yourself up to consign to memory, which is a huge gain for the deck.

SPEAKER_01 10:22

So it might be a little bit less about how many ways your opponent can interact with you in more how many main deck or uh normally included ways you have to kind of circumvent what they're trying to do anyway.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Correct. So what does your sideboard typically look like? How often are you you know diluting your deck with your your sideboard cards versus just sticking with the main plan?

SPEAKER_00 10:47

So it again depends on what type of combo deck you're playing. In uh spell-based combo decks like Storm, it's really hard to sideboard a bunch of cards because you need to build up a critical mass to win. So generally, if I'm playing a deck like Storm, I usually try and only board a couple of cards. Um, you also have the wish access, so you still have access to a lot of them. With a deck like Belcher that interacts a lot with their opponent, I am more okay with shaving on combo pieces or swapping out interactions so I have the best one or the best pieces of interaction to deal with what my opponent is doing.

SPEAKER_02 11:33

So what what about with creature decks? Um, you know, obviously, you know, if if you're trying to if you're trying to win with the combo, but also you know have a plan B of beating down, uh, are you able to kind of sacrifice a little bit more of the combo in those creature combo decks in favor of um hate pieces or you know something that's going to stop what whatever your opponent's plan A is, all of that?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Yeah, so in creature combo decks, you generally get to play, again, like you said, a lot of hate bears in your sideboard, something like Collector Oof, or maybe Aven Mind Sensor. So you get to interact with maybe some of the faster combo decks, or you just get to shut off ways of interacting from your opponent. Like maybe you have something like a Gadic Teague that can shut off something like Wrathless Guys, or out of a combo deck, it can shut them off from casting goblin char Belcher. But you also can just bring in more like bare mid-range creatures post-board.

SPEAKER_02 12:32

So with with some of those creature combo decks, you're you're saying that sometimes you're just kind of leaning more on your plan B of beating down if you're if you're playing those mid-range creatures.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

Right. The thing about creature combo decks is they generally aren't a combo deck first. They're a mid-range deck that keeps presenting threats, making their opponent answer them, and then they can backdoor into the combo once their opponent is either tapped out or low on resources.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

What are some of the matchups that you're looking for as a combo deck? Like, you know, if if you're playing a spell combo deck, what what are your good matchups? Uh like what archetypes versus a creature combo deck?

SPEAKER_00 13:11

So a spell-based combo deck generally likes to play against other combo decks because it is usually faster. It usually accelerates its mana with like rituals or cost reducers, so they can present a pretty quick kill, or sort of bigger mana decks like Tron or Eldrazi, because they just don't really have time to set up their game plan before they have to interact, and then they're not very good at interacting. Uh, as far as something like Belcher, you're also pretty good into combo mirrors because you get to interact with them, whether that's counter spells, bounce spells, but you also have a turn for combo yourself. You're also pretty good into the big mana decks with a lot of your sideboard cards, whether that's consigned to memory or harbinger of the seas. Some people play subtlety, and then you're also really good at interacting with the pieces of hate that something like Tron can put into play with cards like Into the Flood Maw and Sink into Stuper. Belcher really enjoys playing against Blue Mirrors because at the end of the day, you guys are both control decks, but you get to decide when your opponent taps mana because you have essentially an instant speed combo where you get to Wurve Invention on end step for a lotus bloom, play Char Belcher, and kill them. So you kind of get to dictate when each player has to you know play their spells or gets to tap mana.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

What would you say are kind of the matchups you salivate over when you're playing a creature combo deck?

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Um, so creature combo generally when I've played creature combo in the past, I like to play it against mid-range decks because with your game plan of just like playing creatures, generally isn't like phenomenal against mid-range decks, but you have these like tutor cards like quarter calling that lets you get like a two for one threat, like back in the day, something like Kitchen Finks that they had to kill twice, or collected company that lets you get two threats at once. It's hard to answer with one card. So I generally like playing against mid-range decks, control decks for kind of the same reason, although they're a little bit harder because they have counter spells to answer those, you know, two for one really impactful spells.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

Can't believe you may be uh relive kitchen finks after all my years of playing Jun mid-range against like devoted company. I've cast Kitchen Finks so many times. I hated seeing that card. I hated seeing that card so much.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Those voice of voice of resurgent.

SPEAKER_01 16:03

Uh voice the like $40 staple from Dragon's Maze when the entire rest of the set was like $7 total.

SPEAKER_02 16:13

Played a lot of voice of resurgents too. Talk about that token. Yeah, the token was randomly like $15, right? It was so what are your bad matchups as a combo deck?

SPEAKER_00 16:24

So for creature-based combo decks, it's generally like the hyper-aggressive aggro decks, something like burn or prowess, because they're presenting a really quick clock with something like Monastery Swiss ear and slick shot show-off, but they also get to use their game plan to interact with you. Whether that's with something like Lava Dart or Lightning Bolt, they get to kill your creatures while you know keeping up the pressure with the prowess triggers. For spell-based combo decks, it's generally you don't want to play against the mid-rangey sort of like you know, control decks, uh, with cards like Thothsies or Counterspells. I'm just describing Michael's favorite deck ever.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

I was gonna say it's a good thing nobody plays those decks in modern.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yeah. So uh the big the big deck that like Ruby Storm, for example, would hate is Blue Black Mid-range with Psychic Frog, Thotsies, Force Negation, other counter spells that type of thing. I can confirm. Yeah. As far as something that's like an A plus B combo deck, but also like a control deck like Belcher, uh, they also generally really struggle with prowess. Uh, this one is just kind of weird because to play an untapped land, you have to take three, which is an unfortunate disadvantage of playing a one-card kill, but you do what you do. Another tough matchup for Belcher is Affinity, because they have a lot of cheap artifacts that interact pretty well with you, whether that's Tormod's Crypt to shut off the Tameshi angle or pithing needle to turn off the char Belger, and they get to find them through Urza Saga, which is essentially an uncounterable card that says you can't combo kill.

SPEAKER_02 18:33

Yeah, Urza Saga seems pretty rough for Belcher.

SPEAKER_00 18:35

Yeah, it's like one of my least favorite cards to play against.

SPEAKER_02 18:38

So you've got one minute to give us a pitch to tell us why we should be playing a combo deck.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Go ahead, what's your pitch? So my pitch to playing a combo deck is you get to play some of the most powerful decks in all format, but you also get to present a threat that is going to kill your opponent and make them answer it. I don't generally like reacting to what my opponent is doing. I like being the one that's putting the clock on the table and making them answer it.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

Alright, so you've got me convinced. I'm gonna play a combo deck. How do I improve? If I've never played a combo deck, how how do I improve? Uh am I just, you know, jamming leagues or am I am I gold fishing?

SPEAKER_00 19:22

So the biggest lesson you're gonna learn from playing combo for the first time or you know, your first couple times, um, you have to learn when to pick your spots. The most important thing is not to just jam your combo out there into like all the interaction that's possible. For example, playing against a control deck, you can't just throw your combo out there willy-nilly, because if you dedicate multiple resources and they have one counter spell, you get blown out and then you're pretty far behind. You have to know when to be patient with your combo, but also be assertive with your combo. Like, if you're really behind and you kind of need a Hail Mary, you need to know when you can throw the combo out there, but also like if you're pretty far ahead or even, you don't want to throw your combo out there and then get blown out, and then you're so far behind that you can't catch up.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

Would you uh would you say that it's fair that you have to know when to hold them and know when to fold them? Exactly. Know when to walk away, know when somebody correct.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

What is your favorite combo deck that you've ever played? Any format, any time period?

SPEAKER_00 20:40

Gosh, that's a tough question. Um, I can probably actually give you one for each type of combo deck. So for spell-based combo decks, right after Theros Beyond deck came out, I got to play Adnauseum Tentrals with Underworld Breach. That was a lot of fun. It was really, really dumb. Um creature combo decks, I really enjoy uh the devoted druid bizier remedies collected company decks. Really any collected company deck. Uh I really enjoyed elves as well. For combo control decks, it's gotta be Belcher. That's won me a lot of tournaments. I've had a lot of fun playing it. And it's also just very unique.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

Just a million counter spells and four cards that say I win the game. Or I guess eight cards that say I win the game, right? Because the four were's.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Yeah. You also get the great complaint equity of saying, Ah, I lost, never. I lost because I didn't, you know, I kept a no lander. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 21:43

Michael, what about you? What's your favorite con combo deck that you've ever played?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

Oh, it it's kind of funny because I was thinking about this while Damien was answering his. And in my entire magic career, I think I've only played two. quote unquote combo decks uh with any sort of regularity neither of them were all in combo decks I played uh a reasonable amount of Splinter Twin when it was around really enjoyed that deck and then almost on the exact same vein I played a lot of Saheeli Felidar combo when it was in standard oh yeah that deck was really cool. Oh I love that deck. Torrential Gearhulk was a beast. Yeah but I if I ever play a deck with a combo it's gonna be like a a mid-range here control deck that has a combo finish. So like that plan B plan C combo uh but I don't think I've ever actually registered an all-in plan A combo deck with any regularity for a format.

SPEAKER_02 22:46

I think the the one combo deck that I played a lot of was uh going back even further than the devoted druid devoted druid vizier combo deck and that was the Malira company deck uh before Vizier even was was a card before they switched to just green white um and so yeah we used uh little murderous red cap action yeah yeah man I loved that deck so much that was so cool uh just gain infinite life and get infinite scries until you uh until you get to your murderous red cap and then kill them next turn with that um but you know kind of like Damien was saying before with like the mid-range decks like the the toolbox component was so cool uh I was playing a card back then that uh not a lot of people were on and that was uh the the flip Liliana creature the heretical healer I think yeah um and so you know against some of the mid-range decks you know when when they go to to target your creature with a lightning bolt or or something of that sort you know if you pod or if sorry if you cord for the uh for the Liliana in response to uh to you know get your zombie get a planeswalker out of it uh it's it's pretty cool it it definitely had like a lot of really cool toolboxy cards that you could just kind of tutor for you know depending on on what the matchup called for uh we had some people that were big infect and inf and affinity players too uh and so being able to tutor for your Malira at instant speed was really nice. Alright well that brings us to the end of our episode uh but as you all know we've got one last thing we need to talk about it is closing time. Damien you've got to take one deck home in modern and one deck home in standard.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

Go ahead and give us your picks for each so I've expressed my uh dislike towards standard uh I would probably just register is it prowess I think that deck's really strong boomerang basics and storm chasers is broken Eddie Mercrab is one of the best cards in the format and a good alternate threat as far as modern I gotta take home Belcher that's my one true love in the format.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

Michael what are you feeling tonight? Ooh on the standard side I've kind of been look or liking the uh the Mardu discard deck I think I want to try playing that deck a little bit more see how it goes but I think the game plays really proactive which when people aren't sure of what to do in a format when the meta percentages are getting a little bit more evenly spread out than proactivity is always a big plus then in modern just top eight in a challenge with uh Demir mid-range with Tasiger anybody out there in TV land who doesn't believe in Tassiger at this point I got some words for you but definitely going Demir mid-range and uh definitely going Mardu discard.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

Dude you've convinced some of our locals uh uh I was playing in an RCQ a couple weekends ago and uh somebody was playing Tassiger and uh Geist in the sideboard so uh so you're you're definitely making an impact on the the people in Nashville I love to hear that uh for standard I think I'm gonna go with uh blue white momo uh I played enough is it prowess and I just don't love the play pattern I guess I don't know it's it's fine uh the deck is obviously busted but I think I get more enjoyment out of playing decks like Momo where I can blink my Riddler and draw a million cards and still have enough power to beat down afterward and then for modern uh I I told Damien that if he won his second RCQ that I would learn how to play Belcher so I guess I'm gonna have to learn how to play Belcher we're gonna we're gonna call Belcher the the uh the pillow talk for modern from me this week. Yes let me teach you the way gonna have to get some help because I tried it a couple times and didn't go great for me but I trust Damien to to be a good enough teacher. I feel like he knows what he's talking about. Alright well thanks so much Damien for talking to us all about combo. We appreciate it. Absolutely thank you for having me. Alright well that wraps up our episode thanks for coming to our pillar top next time