Pillow Talk MtG 20: All About Tempo

Welcome to Pillow Talk, the official competitive Magic the Gathering podcast of Team Pillow Fort! This week, Austin and Michael dive deep into tempo. Join us as we talk about what tempo means, how to navigate the matchups, and some examples of tempo decks across formats and decades!

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to Pillow Talk, the official podcast of Team PillowFort MTG. I'm your host, Austin Walker, and with me. Alright, Michael. This is actually the second time that we are recording this. I don't know what happened the first time, but long story short, I lost all the the data. So um so yeah, we're we're trying again. Uh hopefully this one will stick around and we don't have to record it a third time. Today we are finishing our series on the macro archetypes. So today we are talking all about tempo.

SPEAKER_02 1:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Yeah, me too. And you know, all of these other ones, we've had different people from the team come on and talk about these um, you know, different macro archetypes. But for this one, I thought that you and I are are kind of two of them the more tempo-oriented players on the team, so we can probably handle this one by ourselves today. So so yeah, we're gonna we're gonna get into it. All right, so let's start by talking about what a tempo deck is, because I think that's like one of the biggest questions that really um especially newer players or people who are newer to competitive magic, uh, that they they really want to know the answer to. So, how would you define a tempo deck? Or even a tempo play what it is. Um, you know, cards that I think about when I think of tempo are cards like Unsummon, right? So you're getting an extreme mana advantage in a lot of cases. Um, and oftentimes it's at the cost of card advantage. So whereas control decks are looking to spend their mana to get more cards, you're looking to spend your cards to gain a mana advantage, right? So your opponent plays a three-drop creature and you spend one mana to bounce it to their hand. Uh, you haven't gotten rid of that card. They still have that card, they still have access to it. Uh, so you've gone card negative in uh in card advantage, uh, but you've gained two points of a mana advantage uh in that example. So so that's that's how you're you're really trying to win. And and so like you said, you know, there are there are a lot of tempo decks that are trying to um that are trying to play as flexibly as possible so they can either play to the board early and and kind of put their opponent on the back foot, but also are ready to grind in the later game, which can be hard if you're trying to uh use your cards as a resource to gain that mana advantage. Yeah, yeah, car cards like subtlety are really great example of that. Um, you know, that that card that that they're giving up, like they're they're giving up the the next draw step, you know, because they're probably putting it on top. Um, if if it's a good creature, but you know, that creature's coming back, um, but it did cost you two cards to to you know put that card from the stack back into their library. So so you you know, if if the creature is good, they're still getting it, but you like you said, you know, giving up that extra card uh to to do so for zero mana is is just really incredible. And why subtlety is such a great card. Um, I think in the standard format, the card that comes to mind obviously is uh into the flood maw. That's just kind of like a catch-all answer to everything. It hits any permanent. Um it you know gives them a fish, which is fine, but you know, you're you're still uh putting a creature back into their hand for free, um, or you know, for for the one mana, but without giving them the fish. So so there's there's a lot of uh a lot of really cool play there. Um but but yeah, so so that's that's kind of a a brief summary of what the tempo archetype is trying to do, or you know, what a tempo tri play is trying to accomplish. Um, so let's talk about like you know, why why would you play a tempo deck? Like, why is it good? Yeah, and I think it's also one of the things that separates it from an aggro deck, right? Because like all the things that you were saying are some of the things that we talked about when we talked about what makes aggro what it is, right? Like you're playing early creatures of the board, you've got cheap creatures, cheap interaction, all of that. Like those are all things that you expect to see in an aggro deck. Uh, but the ability to play into the the later game or the mid-game, and being able to kind of like change your role on a dime, that's really what the the um you know the the tempo decks are trying to accomplish, right? That's that's what they're what they're trying to do that's different from the agri decks. Yeah, and and for that reason, I think that it's a lot more common to find tempo decks having much fewer threats than your typical aggro deck. Um, and so a lot of the times like you refer to these types of decks as like a protect the queen type of strategy, you know, like you're playing your turn one delver, but turn two, you're not playing like you know, delver delver again. You know, you're playing like you know, your lightning bolt and something else holding up a spell pierce, right? Like those are the types of plays that you see a lot with those tempo decks. Is you want to play a threat on turn one, maybe turn two, and then you don't really want to just keep jamming threats into a board, you want to then hold up interaction, right? That way you have the ability to attack when you've already got something on the board, while also being able to play that type of control game that you were talking about earlier, right? With your with your spell pierces, cards that like are are just hyper hyper efficient. You know, you you hold up spell pierce on two, and your opponent plays a three drop, you know, like a Teferi, for example, that that we've seen. Um, and then you know, have being able to trade that that spell pierce for a Teferi, and then also being able to bolt your opponent or cast a cantrip or something along those lines. Um, you know, those are really like what sets those tempo decks apart. Yeah, and and I think that like these are the types of things that are really setting tempo ahead of the game in standard, because you have cards like Storm Chaser's talent that's just been like a mainstay for so long at this point. It's it's the the turn one threat, um, you know, a one mana one one is pretty innocuous, it's nothing that's gonna like you know take over the game by itself. Uh, but the fact that like you have the ability in the mid to late game to turn that into another piece of cardboard by leveling it up to level two, getting back uh a spell that you've got in the graveyard, that can oftentimes make up for those early into the flood mob plays where you're again trading a card in your hand for a mana advantage, and now you are then later on able to turn the mana that you do have back into more cards, um, kind of after you've already put the pressure on. Uh and then and then even later on, if you are able to you know spend six mana to level it up again, all those cheap pieces of interaction, all those cantrips, they just turn into more threats. Uh, so it really kind of does like an all-in-one type of um like you know, build your own threat, right? Like it's it's kind of like the the Swiss army knife of the prowess decks right now, it just does so much for a single mana. And then, you know, like you said, boomerang basics is so good at being just an unsummon when you need it to be, but also being able to be a a uh like a one-mana draw to, right? Like you can pay one mana and draw a card off the top of your deck and also draw a storm chaser's talent if you've got it in play. Um, you know, those types of plays just again are able to recoup those cards. So, you know, your first boomerang basics might be to bounce one of your opponent's creatures, uh, or maybe you know, bouncing your your own um uh storm chaser's talent to be able to draw the extra card, and then that extra card that you draw, you're able to cash in later to bounce your opponent's four-dropper or whatever it is. Um, so you you just have so much flexibility with these cards that are in standard right now. And like I said, I think it's one of the reasons why Tempo is such a powerhouse in standard right now.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Um, one of the things that I think is really interesting about tempo decks, and uh we kind of touched on this a little bit with with the being able to be flexible uh aspect of the deck, but the the fact that like you really have to determine when you're playing to win and you're when you're playing not to lose. Uh, and this is something that I've talked with Jonathan a lot about, and we've we've mentioned it a couple times on the episode. Um, but there is like this real significant difference between when you need to be holding up interaction and when you need to be just jamming your threats. Uh, you know, who's the beat down is a question that is asked a hundred times throughout the course of of uh a tournament. Um and so so you know, having having these situations where like you need to piece together the puzzle of like what does the game look like where I win, and what does the game look like where I lose, you know, and and trying to figure out like, am I supposed to be developing my threat here, or am I supposed to be holding up interaction and just letting letting my threat that I already have on board be the thing that's going to kill my opponent?

SPEAKER_02 17:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

Right, right. And and you know, sometimes there are there are games where you have to play not to lose, you know, like if if you're playing against a combo deck, for example, and and you know, you know that the only way that you lose is by your opponent just going for it on an early turn, then you know, sometimes it's better to just keep holding up that interaction, right? You're you're just taking it nice and slow, you're you're attacking for two, three points uh at a time, uh, you know, but you've got like double counter spell in hand, so you're feeling pretty confident. Um, you know, whereas some players might be like, well, I need to get this game over quickly, and I need to just develop everything really like right away, uh, in order to you know make sure that I don't give my opponent too much time to build. Uh, I think that you know, there are more disciplined players that would look at that situation and say, Nope, I can't I have all the time in the world, I have the interaction that I need. The only way that I lose is by tapping out on you know turn three or turn four or whatever it is. I just need to sit back and and be patient and just make sure that I am in the driver's seat by not letting my opponent resolve the spells. You know, the the developing the frog. When when am I supposed to develop my frog? I've got counterspell and I've got psychic frog in hand, and I'm playing against Ruby Storm on the draw. You know, am I supposed to just play it on two and hope my opponent doesn't have it? But you know, a lot of a lot of those times, like, you know, I'm I'm thinking of like, you know, is my opponent on a mulligan? Um, how have they played previously? Uh have they played conservatively or have they just run stuff out in the past? You know, those types of things are are some signals that you need to be paying attention to. And, you know, I think that there is um there is often a right answer for the scenario, but there's very rarely a right answer outside of that scenario. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 22:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:22

Yeah, yeah. Um, and and you know, an example that uh I've uh faced a bunch in current standard is um you know, in those is it tempo mirrors, though those prowess mirrors where you know you're on the draw, your opponent plays a storm chaser's talent on one, and your hand is like spire bluff canal, storm chaser's talent, spell pierce, and boomerang basics. Like, am I supposed to play my own storm chaser's talent to you know develop my board and then you know possibly play the boomerang basics next turn? Um, is is spell pierce going to be turned is gonna be good after turn two? Um you know, am I supposed to hold up the spell pierce for their turn two so that they don't get the boomerang basics and into the the next Storm Chaser's talent? Um if I do that, then my opponent might just play Cantrip Cantrip and attack me for three. But you know, what are those games look like that I'm winning and what do they look like that I'm losing? And you know, you you have to make those decisions um that that are really key as early as turns one and two. Right. And so um, you know, I I have played a lot of those Azores uh mirrors, those those Azorius tempo matchups, and and you know, the the the games um in in some regards play out kind of the the same as like the is it mirrors where you know like I said, you're just trying to figure out what is my opponent's most key spell, what are they trying to do, how are they trying to develop uh versus um you know what types of um you know what types of threats am I am I looking at my opponent playing? Um so so you know, just just the like you said earlier, the format knowledge, knowing, knowing what's important, knowing what my opponent can have, what they likely do have, all of that. Um, you know, it's it's just like anything, it's it's so important to know what is coming later on in the game and how am I how am I going to be winning versus what are the games look like that I'm that I'm losing. Uh but the the Azuri's tempo deck is is really interesting. Like you said, it is very different than then the Is It Tempo decks because you're with with the Is It Tempo decks and with like you know a lot of the um the the modern tempo decks like uh like your Mert Tide decks, uh especially like Is It Murt Tide back in the day, or like Legacy Delver, all of those decks that they're they're really trying to play very early threats, either turn one or two, um, you know, whether that's a delver of secrets or a psychic frog or or a storm chaser's talent, but the Azorius Tempo deck is is really interesting in that you're you're really not looking to develop your threats until like turn three and four. Um, and then you're using your threats to gain the mana advantage in a different way than the other tempo decks, right? So like in your blue red style decks or your blue X style decks, um, like like Demir even uh you know you're you're looking to play like your your one mana three power creature, right? Whether it's uh DRC or or um or Delver of Secrets, um and then and then that's how you're gaining your mana advantage, right? So so your your three two flyer is is just so much ahead of the curve uh then your opponent's you know two mana two two or two mana three three or whatever it might be, right? So so that's how you're gaining your mana advantage. But with the Azorius Tempo deck in standard right now, um you're you're gaining your mana advantage by using these like pseudo counter spells that your opponent is investing mana into, you know, they might pay three, four, five mana for a spell, um, but then you use your three mana to cast an Aven Interruptor, and it it doesn't get rid of the spell. So in that sense, it's sort of like an unsummon, you know, in that like you know, you you don't get rid of it permanently, it's still there, your opponent still has access to it, uh, but they just have to pay another two or four mana or whatever it is, however many you know creatures you have out on the field. And so you're able to just keep putting your opponent behind by having to commit mana over and over and over again to the same spell without getting anything. Meanwhile, you're building up your board with like you know, cards that are very behind on rate. Like a three-mana 2-2 flyer isn't anything special, but the fact that it comes with making your opponent invest more mana again, like I said, into the same card over and over again, just means that you you get to take over the game with a bunch of small flyers in the air while keeping your opponent off spells. Right. Yeah, I mean, one of my favorite decks in Pioneer when that was a real format was Spirits, which is like you said, that's that creature-based tempo deck, right? Like you're you're playing uh a one mana, one, one uh that grows every time you play a spirit, um, but it also acts as a counterspell in the late game, right? You're playing your spell quellers, which is again just keeping your opponent off of off of the the cards until they can get rid of your spell quellers, so they have to kind of commit cards in places that they don't want to. Um, and then my first competitive modern deck that I ever played way back in I think 2013 maybe was uh Green White Hate Bears. And I and I loved that deck. I thought that deck was really, really cool. And that's kind of an unassuming tempo deck. You know, you you don't really think of it necessarily as as a tempo deck, but you know, you look at what cards it was playing back then, and it's like, okay, well, voice of resurgence means that my opponent has to play spells on their turn, which means that you kind of get uh um a little bit of a tempo advantage in that you are you know more able to map out the turns that you're that you're playing your spells versus what your opponent's spells look like. Uh, but having cards like Leon and Arbiter that meant that your opponent had to pay two extra mana every time they wanted to crack a fetch. Um, you know, that's a huge tempo advantage when you're not playing fetch lands and everybody else is, and they have to pay so much more for it. Um cards like Aethervile, you know, you you put uh an artifact into play that says that you just get to put creatures into play for free. You know, you don't have to spend the mana on your creatures, or or you can have these really explosive turns where you're just dumping, you know, three creatures onto the field in in a single turn um at at just such a low mana rate. It's it's um, you know, like I said, it's it's not something that you would typically think of as like, oh yeah, this is a this is a tempo deck, but it certainly plays that way, and um, and you know, just very, very different from the blue red style, is it? Uh uh tempo decks.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:06

So let's talk about I don't know, what do we talk about next? Yeah, so I I think I think that I I I have to I I have a few for for the different formats, but I think that I have to stick with uh Green White Hate Bears as my favorite tempo deck. Um I definitely, like I said, had a lot of uh fun playing blue-white spirits in Pioneer. Um and and obviously, you know, uh I qualified for the Pro Tour with Blue White Tempo in standards, so that holds a special place in my heart. But um I think that the most fun that I've ever had playing Magic was playing the Green White Hate Bears deck. Um, you know, having cards like I said, like Leon and Arbiter, Aethervile, Voice of Resurgence, Thalia, just keeping your opponent paying so much more mana for all of their spells. Um, was just such a fun deck to pilot, so much fun to play. Um, definitely loved that deck. Um so so yeah, I'm gonna go with Green White Hate Bears. And uh I I think I know what yours is, but I'll ask anyway, what's what's your favorite tempo deck you've ever piloted?

SPEAKER_02 34:02

Yup.

SPEAKER_01 34:12

Yeah, uh Grix's Shadow, uh I I I loved that deck. Um actually played it uh last year at the uh land run event that they just had. Uh I think this year, I think they just had it last weekend maybe in in Oklahoma. Um played the the trios event in modern and and that was so much fun last year. Uh we we ended up top eight in that event. Um and and yeah, just had an absolute blast playing that deck. Uh played it, you know, back when it was first like its its big powerhouse, um, probably what 2016, 2017, uh around that time. Um, you know, cards like Stubborn Denial, which is just one mana negate so much of the time. Like that card was just so so cool. Um, played around with like the team or battle rage uh version of the deck for a little bit as well, where you just get to sometimes win the game by spending two mana when your opponent doesn't expect it. So, so really, really cool deck. Uh, I really wish that it was a more viable option right now. Um, but unfortunately, Solitude is just too good. Everybody's got Solitudes and the Death Shadow Killer.

SPEAKER_02 36:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

All right. Well, I think I think that basically sums up everything that we uh we had talked about uh before the last time we recorded this, um, all regarding tempo. Uh hopefully, you know, some people listening have a little bit better idea of you know what makes a tempo deck a tempo deck and and what makes a tempo play a tempo play. Um, you know, I th I think that that like I said, there's there's a um a lot of people who don't really understand what that word means, and so hopefully we were able to clear that up a little bit. Yeah, yeah. Um, and and you know, like you said, with just adding those little bit of elements can can really help you bridge the gap. Um, you know, if you're a control player, uh having having those tempo elements in the early game can can really help you just not die before you're able to start spending all of that mana that you've got kicking around in the late game to to you know draw all the cards that you need. Um, but but yeah, I I think that just adding these tempo elements to your deck can can really improve um you know how you're playing and and and all of that throughout the course of a tournament as long as you're doing it correctly. All right, well, it wouldn't be an episode of Pillow Talk if we didn't have our pillow talk at the end. So, you know the rules. Standard and modern, you've got to take a deck home. It's almost closing time. Who are you bringing home? Yup. Yeah, both great choices. Um yeah, Affinity is is just such a messed up deck right now. The the the games that it is able to do its thing on turns one and two um are are pretty close to unbeatable. Um so so yeah, they're they're really, really strong, really strong plays from that deck. Um for me, I think standard, I'm probably gonna take the uh the four-color control deck. Um I think that deck again is is just really cool. Uh I haven't gotten a chance to to really invest a whole lot of time into it, uh, but I do really like the deck a lot. And I think that it's it's just such a such a cool way to approach the control decks. Um, it's so flexible in in the answers that it has. So I I think that that that's gonna be my choice. Uh for modern, I actually think that I'm gonna go with Gorios, which is a deck that I haven't had a lot of experience with, um, but I've been looking a little bit more online at how it's been doing, and it's it it's it doesn't have a huge win percent right now. Um, you know, it's not like you know reaching the 56-58% marks, but uh it might even be sub-50 uh at the time of recording. Uh, but I think that just the the way that it enacts its game plan is so unique. Um, it's able to switch between a mid-range deck, a control deck, a combo deck, kind of on a dime, almost like those those tempo decks that we were talking about before. Um, you know, it's able to to just have such a flexible game plan that I think that I would love to just learn the ins and outs of, you know, like we had talked about when it's time to go for wins, when it's time to just sit back and let your opponent, you know, do their thing so that you can interact. And um, and yeah, I'm I'm I'm down to down to play some Gorios this week nice. Yeah, yeah, I'm actually in a league right now with it, and uh my round one, I just misplayed terribly because I don't know how to play the deck, and my opponent let me know how much I misplayed, uh, but it's okay. I still got the dub, and I I let them know that I hope that they have a good rest of their league, despite all the salt. All right. Well, thanks, Michael. Appreciate you, and uh, listeners, thanks for coming to our pillow talk.