the bts of the back of house with chef ben

In this episode, I chat with the infamous Chef Ben (Benedict Lim or cooking withben_)! Ben has been working in kitchens and restaurants for over a decade now, and his generative expertise has led to the birth of hot spot restaurants like Lunch Lady (Toronto and Vancouver) and Nomo Nomo (Vancouver). We talk about his humble origins from working at Fantasy Garden in Richmond to opening up the Lunch Lady, what makes his restaurants unique, his acclimation to Toronto, kitchen horror stories, the challenges with starting a restaurant, his relationship with alcohol, cultivating a good work culture, what makes a good employee, embarrassing moments etc. Chef Ben and I hope you love the episode! Arigato gozaimasu! 

 If you are experiencing a crisis please phone Crisis Services Canada at 1-833-456-4566, or text HOME to 686868 in Canada to text with a trained Crisis Responder.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

You are now tuned into Club Therapy with Emily Chan.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Welcome back to Club Therapy. I missed you guys and I hope you miss me. Today we have Mr. Chef Ben here.

unknown 0:17

Hi Ben.

SPEAKER_00 0:18

Ben and I have known each other for a couple of years now, maybe three-ish, three, maybe four years.

SPEAKER_02 0:23

Three-ish, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:25

We met actually at AMPM LMFAL on a night out.

SPEAKER_02 0:29

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 0:30

Famously. And Ben here is actually one of the founders and owners of Lunch Lady, which you guys might have heard of. Just a small, small restaurant. There's a lunch lady in Toronto. We have one in Vancouver as well. I've gone to your flagship location in Vancouver and I've been many times since. It's so good. It's one of my favorite restaurants in Vancouver.

SPEAKER_02 0:50

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

Not just saying that, he's not holding a gun to my head. Chef Ben is also one of the founders of Nomo Nomo, which is a Japanese-inspired snack bar in Vancouver. And he also has his own private dining company in Vancouver and works as a restaurant consultant very casually, as we were kind of talking about earlier.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Very casually. Yeah, but now you're so busy.

SPEAKER_02 1:11

It's been it's been a lot the last little bit. A lot has happened last year, and the momentum is still pushing us forward. So yeah, there's there's more to come, and I'm excited. I'm excited to do it all.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

Yes. I was gonna ask, when did you start feeling really busy with all the things that you have on your plate?

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Um I would say that gearing up to open Toronto, we we got the keys in January of last year, and it was kind of like every month it got more real, it got more real, and then you're like, oh, it's coming, it's coming. And then that's when the pressure started to build up, and then that's where it was kind of busy physically, but then mentally, that's when it got really, really busy because there's a lot of people depending on us, myself and Michael, in terms of producing a good program. Um, we're not from Toronto, so we wanted to make sure that we integrate into the community properly, both for the industry and the guests.

SPEAKER_00 2:07

How did you do that out of curiosity? That must be hard because I've lived in both places, but it took me a little while to learn how to integrate into Toronto. It took me a few years before I felt really comfortable here, where I felt I had my bearings. How did how did you do that?

SPEAKER_02 2:18

I think the first approach for me is I inherently understood that Toronto is not Vancouver. So the way you approach Toronto cannot be the same as Vancouver. The people are different, the food is different, the weather's different, of course. And so I became kind of a student of the city again. I wasn't, oh, I know a lot, or we're hot shots from Vancouver. Let's quietly kind of enter. Yeah. Let's learn from the people and other chefs that that I knew here and and and just take it one day at a time, step by step, and and see what happens. I don't think we we had some grand plan as to how hard or how busy we would be. We were just, let's just take it a day at a time. We know what we know and let's just ease into it.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

It's really smart that you did that because I think sometimes restaurants forget about that, especially if you're opening up another location in a new city. Learning about the community you guys are part of, Ausington specifically.

unknown 3:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

We were saying earlier it's kind of like commercial drive. If you guys know commercial drive on crack a little bit because it's more condensed, yeah, it's kind of a mix of commercial and then Yale Town. You were saying, Chef Ben.

SPEAKER_02 3:29

Definitely, definitely. Osington's when we first got the spot on Osington. I didn't know what Osington was. I I'd never been to Osington. I've been to Toronto enough times, but nobody ever took me to Oslington. And so when I went to Oslington, I was like, what's this? We just fell in love with the space in the building. And it's when you go into you're looking for homes, and then you walk into a space and you have a gut feeling this is the one this is the only place where it could possibly work. And we were lucky enough to be able to get the spot, and it was lucky it was in Oslington. But Oslington is it's crazy. I have seen it in the summertime, even now, it's just a destination for people that live in Toronto or or Ontario, even as a whole. People come through.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

It's the new hotspot. It used to be King West years ago.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

I remember going to King West years ago. Yeah, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Because you've been coming to Toronto for a while now, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

My brother lives out here, so I I come and I visit him, and he used to live on King in Portland, actually.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

So dangerous spot.

SPEAKER_02 4:30

Now I understand what King in Portland is. At the time, I was just, oh, this is Toronto. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:37

It's so intense.

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Okay, I can kind of compartmentalize what area gives me what energies. And I'm like, okay, Osington is this, King West is this. Actually, that's really as far as I know. I haven't even really ventured. That's really good. Yeah, I get as far as Dundas or Queen College, maybe, and then I pause.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Honestly, that was me for the first six years of living here, to be honest. It takes a while before you feel comfortable venture venturing out. It's not even being comfortable, it's it takes time to venture out. You need to sometimes, if you want to explore like a new area, for instance, at the East End or Bloor somewhere on St. Clair West, you need to give yourself at least a half a day to do that, or sometimes a full day.

SPEAKER_02 5:16

Definitely. It has to be intentional. You gotta be like, oh, I'm doing this or I'm going to this restaurant.

SPEAKER_00 5:22

And yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:22

That's for me, it's always distance. I'm oh, it's 25 minutes away. I'm still that's far.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

It's funny because 25 minutes in Vancouver. Where do you live in Vancouver, by the way?

SPEAKER_02 5:31

Well, I live in Kitts now, but I used to live in Richmond. Um but 25 minutes is pretty much Richmond to downtown.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:39

And I always say the comparable is Markham to downtown. Richmond is that suburb where it's a lot of Asians. Yeah. It's that vibe. But Vancouver's so small.

SPEAKER_00 5:49

It really is. And that's why 25 minutes in Toronto, it's you're still downtown, which is crazy. Whereas in Vancouver, you're in a whole different, it's totally different.

SPEAKER_02 5:59

Yeah, it's you're you're definitely it's you see the cultures change almost.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

Exactly. Right?

SPEAKER_02 6:05

Yeah. Toronto, I I went up to North York the other day. A chef buddy of mine said we're going to North York to eat dinner, and I looked it up. I'm like, holy shit.

SPEAKER_00 6:13

Yeah, it's 45 minutes ago.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah, and I'm this is still downtown.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

And it's it's literally still downtown.

SPEAKER_02 6:18

Yeah, so that's weird to me.

SPEAKER_00 6:20

Yeah, that that was a bit of an adjustment for me as well. When I remember I first came to Toronto, everything just felt so far away. And I remember that's kind of what made Toronto for me feel a little bit more unapproachable and a bit cold when I first came here. Just because everyone was commuting from a far away. I came here for school. I did my undergrad here, and that's why I initially came to Toronto 10-ish years ago.

SPEAKER_01 6:42

Gotcha.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

But yeah, it felt really cold for that reason. I'm happy that wait, where are you living here in Toronto?

SPEAKER_02 6:47

I'm nearby the restaurant. I'm on King and Dufferin.

SPEAKER_00 6:50

Oh, you're really close to the studio.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

So it's yeah, I'm very close.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

Did you walk here?

SPEAKER_02 6:54

No, no, no. I'm not. You're not crazy. No, no, no, no. I've learned to be like Uber is Uber's my best friend here.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

An $8 Uber is it's just it's worth it.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

It's worth it. Every time. Absolutely. I've uh endured Toronto weather for a year now. So I'm Ooh, I know what I can handle and can't handle.

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:12

It's actually not too bad today.

SPEAKER_00 7:14

Thank God.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Today's acceptable.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

Thank God. Yeah, today's okay. It's still cold though.

SPEAKER_02 7:18

Yeah, still cold. Definitely still cold.

SPEAKER_00 7:20

Do you miss Vancouver? Or I guess you're kind of back and forth a lot.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Yeah, I would say when people always ask me, it's just what do you better? Vancouver or Toronto? Both. They both have their own charm. I'm more of a big city guy. I know that inherently. But Vancouver is it's beautiful. Nature, snowboarding, it's combo. Amazing seafood, really, really good seafood, Japanese food. I'd say the Asian food. Incredible there. Probably some of the best food in the world. But Toronto has amazing food too. More ethnic.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

I'd say it's more diverse, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah, it's a true melting pot for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

So Toronto, I feel kind of at home in both places now, now that I have business in both spots.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

So I love that. Because you're kind of, yeah, I don't know. I know there's a word for it, someone who lives. You're bicoastal. Bicostal. You're bicoastal. That's what I am. That's what I am now. You're living bicoastally. Okay. Yeah. Because you're, would you say you split up half your time in Toronto, half of it in Vancouver?

SPEAKER_02 8:14

Definitely. As of right now, it's it's it's a clear split for sure.

SPEAKER_00 8:18

I it must be. Because I know it's I know Nomo Nomo just opened what maybe a year less than a year ago. No, it opened in September.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Wow. So it's like four months old right now. Just a baby. So it's it's a little infant. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

Yeah, so you gotta kinda take care of it while also taking care of Toronto, is still it's a toddler.

SPEAKER_02 8:36

Yeah, Toronto's a toddler. Vancouver's kind of like a teenager at this point. Yeah. So they both re all require their own needs at any given time and different versions of myself that need to be there and need to be present. This is why I have to move around all the time.

SPEAKER_00 8:52

Yeah, it's a lot of flying. I do the flying.

SPEAKER_02 8:54

A lot of flying, a lot of fun though. Definitely a lot of fun. How many chefs get to do this? Exactly. They would kill for this. Yeah. So I do get super grateful. As difficult as the job is some days, and as saturated at as I get, I'm still like you you wanted this. You should be grateful, be appreciative. This is a privilege to be able to kind of move around and do what you love, right? And and work with amazing people and meet amazing people. It's it's an incredible thing to be to be part of for sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

I love this. I love that you're saying this because it tells me that you have very humble origins. Which leads me to ask what it how did you go from Ben, from maybe I don't even know when you started lunch lady or when even that seed was planted, but how do you go from that to where you're at now? How did lunch lady kind of come to be?

SPEAKER_02 9:45

So you want from the from the top, or maybe from where did you start in the service industry?

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Or I could also do from the top.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

I'll give you a quick blurb just because I mean with it.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

I'm very curious.

SPEAKER_02 9:55

So I started cooking when I was 15. It was a part-time job. I just needed some money, and it was at this place that did weddings and stuff, and I just put together the fruit platters, I ran buffet stuff. I love that. And eventually I carved. I was a little boy, 15, 16.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Then in Richmond?

SPEAKER_02 10:12

In uh in Richmond, actually. Uh it was a place called Fantasy Garden World. Uh yeah. What a great name. It's very interesting. Very uh very Asian. It's gone now, but that's kind of where I started part-time on the weekends. And then I ended up in a Greek restaurant still in high school. I got yelled at a lot being the only Chinese guy in a Greek restaurant, but it was built character. Yeah, it was a necessary thing. They called me Malacca a lot.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Apparently, that's I hope that's nice, an endearing nickname.

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah, it's endearing if you want it to be endearing. Let's put it that way.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:45

But yeah, I went through that, and then somewhere down the lines, um, I'm gonna go to culinary school. And I went to the the original plan was to be a teacher. I was gonna go into education. You can be a good teacher, and then thank you. Well, I still kind of teach now, but yeah, and then I kind of pivoted off. I went to culinary school, I did that dance, I started working my way through different restaurants. Uh, you take a lot of you take a lot in your early days. The the industry is not easy, um, that that climb up per se.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

But you kind of weather that storm and you you kind of figure out why you still love it. And then years down the road working at different places, I actually ended up at the keg for a bit. I was a server because I was super broke and just give me anything. Cook's life isn't rich. You don't make a lot of money cooking. Yeah, and so I decided I'm I'm gonna serve as well. And I ended up pushing forward and being a front of house manager for five years. Wow, I got into operations.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

You kind of done a lot of different positions then in the restaurant, yeah. Which is very neat.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Very surprising, it was never planned. And so I did that for a bit, and I worked for this gentleman. His name's Kurt Lander. He was the original executive chef of the keg, and he pretty much gave me a shot. He took a shot on it.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Thanks, Kurt.

SPEAKER_02 12:00

Thanks, Kurt. Yeah, we won't say his nickname, but uh Leah, yeah. We'll go with Kurt. Yeah, we'll go with Kurt. Eventually, we well, I decided I'm I'm a backup house guy. I'm a chef, I'm a cook. I love food. So went back to cooking, started a couple night market stalls because I'm this is I'll be a new business owner. Um, and then from there I became a private chef. Private chef meaning I wanted to cook my own food. I didn't have the money to open up a space, so I did something that maybe some people have dabbled in before. I opened up a little uh six-person, six-course private dining kind of situation in my apartment.

SPEAKER_00 12:42

Oh, in your apartment.

SPEAKER_02 12:43

So I turned my apartment into a restaurant. Wow. And because it was so underground, obviously everybody knew about it. And I went from one dinner a week to two dinners a week to five dinners a week to you can't book this guy because he's just so jammed. Wow. And at the time it was so cheap. And the food wasn't amazing. It was like 60 bucks a person and it was six courses. And they brought their own booths.

SPEAKER_00 13:08

Love that. But I feel like that's such a unique experience, right? Because you don't really I I've kind of heard of that in different cities and stuff before, but that's still very unique, having your own. I don't know anyone personally who's owned or even gone to an experience with that. It's I'm so curated. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 13:23

It was very fun for the guests and for myself because I was put in some interesting scenarios when people go to your home and they feel very comfortable, they make themselves at home.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And do they really?

SPEAKER_02 13:35

I've seen people just go crazy, get wild in there. A couple people puked on my couch.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

People started doing lines of cocaine on my on my kitchen counter. Oh they were like, Is this okay? And the hospitality guy in me was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

Yeah, sit me.

SPEAKER_02 13:53

Do whatever you want, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:55

But that was an experience. We got through that, turned it into a legitimate business. I started going to people's homes, doing the same dance. The food got better, thank God. The produce got better, the the product got better. And then that's where I met Mike. And Mike was doing he's doing dabbling in different projects, and he's hey, I got this project. It's called the Lunch Lady. And I'm, I know what that is. It's connected to Anthony Bourdain, it's it's a thing, it's something bigger than me. I want in. And he's like, but you're not Vietnamese. And I'm like, So I can learn.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

You can learn.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

So he took a shot. He took a shot because Vietnamese culture and Vietnamese restaurants, they keep it within the family. They keep it. It's safe that way. Everybody understands everyone. Everybody else is an outsider. Not that they're unwelcoming, it's just what how things have always been.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah, I've noticed that at like a lot of Vietnamese. And I think that's similar with a lot of Asian restaurants, right? Like if you go to a Chinese restaurant, most of the people that are working there are within the same family. They're generally Chinese. Yes, yeah. Same with that of Vietnamese.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

People kind of stick to their own, right? It's not a bad thing, but it's just it just is, right?

SPEAKER_00 15:04

And I feel lunch lady has really changed, I think, people's concept of what a Vietnamese restaurant is, right? I think before you would think of when you think of a Vietnamese restaurant, you think of a family-owned and run kind of small mom and pop kind of shop. Yeah. With a very specific menu, which is, again, always good. But I feel lunch lady is a bit different.

SPEAKER_02 15:22

Definitely. Lunch lady is it's it's very interesting. It's kind of the evolution of what Vietnamese cuisine could be. We we modernize certain things, we elevate certain things, we tell certain stories very intentionally. And people always ask me, they're like, Oh, are you guys better than that guy or that restaurant or that restaurant? I'm like, No, no, no, no, no. We're not we're not better. Yeah, we're different. Yes, right? We're all allowed to be here, but we're different. And we're different because the people that make up the lunch lady, the team, the people, the guests are all different. Inside the kitchen team or even the front of house team, it's not Vietnamese. We have Vietnamese, but we also have Mexican, we have Chinese, we have Korean, and we have a Dutch guy, we have Nepalese. I'm Chinese, right? So I think that has allowed us to really kind of evolve and and kind of share culturally different ideas. I like it. And that's why we're different. I don't think we're special or any better than another place. Our voice is just different. That's all.

SPEAKER_00 16:30

I feel like you guys have a bit of a different approach. And I agree, it's not better, not worse, but it is definitely unique. I think definitely something you don't really see. It's when I think of lunch lady, I think of more upscale kind of, yeah, more I don't know if the word is innovative, but just it just again different. You guys do fun takes on things. I love your beef carpaccio with all the kind of Vietnamese flavors on it. I don't know if that's a traditional dish or not. It is so good.

SPEAKER_02 16:53

It is. We just kind of staged it to be more carpaccio-esque. Typically it's it's thinly sliced beef and you have the herbs and similar ingredients, but the way we kind of doctored it up was so that people would unmistakenly eat it the right way no matter what. So we kind of staged the ingredients in the right spot. So even if you close your eyes, it still tastes the way it's supposed to taste. Yeah. And I think that was something that we were very it was very important to us that as creative as we became, if you close your eyes, as it still tastes inherently Vietnamese.

SPEAKER_00 17:24

I love that. And I feel all your dishes do that.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

No problem. I'm serious. I am I'm not kidding, guys. I am Lunchlady's biggest fan. I've gone, I think around eight times since your training locations opened.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

It's just it's that good.

SPEAKER_02 17:37

Listen, I appreciate it tremendously. Honestly, without our great guests, we could never exist. Right. And that's kind of the one variable that every restaurant needs and uh desires. We need great people.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

And consistency. I feel like with your guests, I think your retention's really great. And I feel that's because the service is so amazing. There's so many little elements that just make the experience so unique. Would you say that's one of the things that things that kind of keep you going when it comes to like I know you've been doing lunch lady for a couple of years now? Would you say is that something that really kind of keeps you going? The feedback, the guests, or is there something else that's there as well?

SPEAKER_02 18:14

I think with hospitality, there's a certain type of person that is just a hospitable person. You either can do it, can be in service, or it's not for you. And I think when you're that person that wants hospitality or wants to give hospitality, you crave that stuff. You want to please people, you want to do everything you can to make sure they're happy. You're just that type of person, not just in work, but in life as well, right? You you just give yourself, you do everything you can, you do it naturally, and it's effortless. You don't know why you do it, or you don't know why you get these kind of moments where you're like, I know how to make this person's day, or I know how to do this. But yeah, definitely it's it's the driving force. You want to know that you want to be validated, you want to know you're doing a good job. And the true test of validation is guest retention. People come back, they're very happy. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

And so I I guess like going back to that origin story, when you started, you started with Mike, and then did you immediately sign on to be the I guess obviously you were the chef, uh head chef right away, right? And did you sign on for that?

SPEAKER_02 19:23

Yes, so I'm gonna share that. I've never really shared this with too many people. It's not a bad thing because obviously things have evolved now. But I got hired as the chef de cuisine. So the very first lunch lady, I was CDC, so I was an employee, right? That's how I started. And I was an employee that was new to Vietnamese cuisine, and I was leading the program. Uh, it was a kitchen that I didn't really build. Uh it was it was a lot. It I hit a couple breaking points for sure. And we just went through it with it, it was a lot of hype. Bourdain, Bourdain, they're amazing. And the worst part about it was with all the hype, we hadn't even produced any food yet. So this is a recipe for disaster right now.

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Because people's expectations are then so high, right? Oh, it's Anthony, it's this is related to definitely because Anthony Bourdain, the story there is right, Anthony Bourdain went to the lunch, the rich the OG lunch lady in Vietnam, right? And then spoke about or had to film that.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Yeah, he did a no reservations episode at the lunch lady, the OG location in Saigon, and pretty much put her on the map. And yeah, and and from there, years later, Michael met her and then they connected and and we all partnered up and yeah, and and we brought the concept to Vancouver.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

For sure.

SPEAKER_02 20:36

But it was so much hype, it scared me. I was I was scared. I was scared. I'm not gonna lie. I'd be scared. Fear. I was just oh my god, if we screw this up, people are gonna give us one shot, maybe two. We better perform. And it was COVID.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

And I oh, and that too. Yeah, oh, I felt so bad for Cameron. They opened up AMPM. They were supposed to open up 2020. Literally March 2020, they're supposed to open when COVID kind of hit. And I felt so bad for everyone who just worked or had or owned owned a restaurant or a bar or club in the first place. But anyone opening during that year that was expected to open during that year, yeah, that must have been so challenging.

SPEAKER_02 21:15

It definitely was. Without people, we can't sustain a business. So you throw that into the mix with being a new restaurant, it was a bit dicey. So we went through a year and a half of that, which was people, the food got better generally, people were happy. And then I actually left the project.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Oh, you left. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Nobody really knows that. I left the project for four months, and the reason I left was not because I was angry or I was upset or Mike and I had a big fight. Well, nothing like that. It's just that our directives started going in two different directions, and I was like, we're not aligning. Anymore. And at the time, we're mature people, we're business people. I was like, this doesn't make sense anymore. I'm gonna go here, you go here. Now, yeah, that's just what happened. And then months later, we found each other again. Right? And I think we needed to kind of separate to understand what the project meant to the both of us and to come back together again. And lucky enough, around the time we came back together again, COVID kind of sort of ended. And then once we aligned, we started taking off.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Amazing.

SPEAKER_02 22:37

But it took that kind of struggle and that maybe this isn't gonna work. Maybe this is over.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

But that sounds really healthy though, that you guys were able to have that conversation in a pretty mature way, kind of separate for a little bit and come back together and and then work really well together afterwards. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 22:53

It was something that I think if we didn't go through that, we wouldn't be where we are to today. Because we deal with way bigger problems now. And we have to put a lot of trust in each other that our goals are the same, and we are pushing and we are aligned.

SPEAKER_00 23:09

So I love that. What a beautiful story. I didn't know a lot about that. I didn't know that you guys had that time apart, and then now you guys are just and then after when you sign on again, I guess to be part of Lunch Lady.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

So when I when when we came back, we ended up partnering up, we we struck a deal, and then all of a sudden I co-owned the place, and then that just completely changed my perspective.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 23:31

And I was okay, well, now this has to work.

SPEAKER_00 23:35

It's gotta well I guess you c we were kind of talking about it already about some of the challenges with like starting Lunch Lady and just like becoming a part of Lunch Lady. But what was uh your biggest challenge, do you think, during that time or just in general? This could have even happened recently. Because I know you again you just opened up Lunch Lady Toronto a couple of months ago. Or I guess a little longer than that, but yeah, a couple months.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

I guess the biggest challenge with any restaurant, this is more of a general statement, is consistency. That's probably the number one thing that we we talk about every day, we stare at all the time. Consistency, consistency, consistency. I would say that was challenge number one. Challenge number two is it's it's it's such a people-driven place. Um, as a whole, right? Hospitality is um it's all about people. Challenge number two is making sure that the team you have behind you is aligned with your goals. Um they trust you, they're okay being led by you. Um and you make sure that they understand that you have their best interests at heart too. Um and that's something I think about all the time too, to make sure are the staff happy? Is my team happy, right? Sorry?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

Yeah, how do I do that? Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 24:48

How to how to do that? And I monitor and because there's so many levels, right? There's chefs, sous chefs, cooks in the front. You've got bartenders, servers, service managers, GMs, and they're all growing, right? And that's very, very important to know that your team is constantly trying to grow, but you have to you have to make sure you can uh harbor that growth and make sure that they're always they're always okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

They're always happy. They're happy.

SPEAKER_02 25:11

Yeah. I would say those are the two most important things.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

I feel like it's challenging sometimes to keep your staff happy, especially because sometimes things happen outside of your control, right? And then you have to kind of problem solve and be how do I make sure that this doesn't affect the staff too much, or how do I make sure that this is delivered well? You know, I even see Cam and Ben go through that at a MPM. Yeah. When things happen, for instance, there's a I don't know, there's a major issue or minimum wage is going up and they have to cut down on cost in certain ways. Like, how do I make everyone happy while still putting the business not necessarily first, but I guess prioritizing the business. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

No, no, absolutely. I think every business struggles with numbers and and you can always rah-rah with the team and and you have to maintain culture. Don't get me wrong, I think culture is so important within an establishment, but you also have to look at your books and make sure, hey, can I sustain this? Right? It's kind of depending on what problem happens, you either answer with a business answer, or you answer with a cultural answer. For example, super stressful, super stressful, the systems aren't in place yet, cooks are super tired. What do you do? Unlimited beer. Here you go, guys.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

That's your solution. That's such a good one.

SPEAKER_02 26:21

At the time, you're listening I can't worry about numbers right now because I might lose these guys worrying about that. That's not the answer. Guys, here's some whiskey, here's some beer. I know it's a tough night. I get it. Show up again tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Wow. I feel this really speaks to your experience doing in all the different positions you've worked in, right? You're kind of putting yourself in their shoes. You're like, definitely how would I feel if I was in this situation? Yeah. Love a shot right now. Yeah, me too. We should have bought something. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like I love that. It really speaks to your experience in all these different positions. I I was just thinking while you were talking, I was, I actually don't know that much about back of house. I don't know the different positions. I just know that there's chefs and then I think prep chefs, right? Or there might be another word for that.

SPEAKER_02 27:04

Yeah, yeah. So there's a hierarchy in the back of house. We follow the French brigade system, generally.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

Generally.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

So there's a chef de cuisine, which is Alan.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

That's Alan.

SPEAKER_02 27:12

And then there's a couple sous chefs, sometimes one, sometimes two. And then in Toronto, it's Lalo and David.

unknown 27:18

Nice.

SPEAKER_02 27:19

And then we've got chef departe, so they're kind of area chefs, so they take certain stations and responsibilities, and they're kind of the next tier down, and then you have cooks, but there's also demi chefs, commie chefs, but generally it's cooks.

SPEAKER_00 27:33

Okay, I see.

SPEAKER_02 27:34

And then I'm technically the culinary director.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

So you're not head chef, you're culinary director.

SPEAKER_02 27:40

Yeah, technically I'm culinary director, something something, whatever that guy does. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

So you're so you're technically at the top, but there's also not necessarily a position in the system.

SPEAKER_02 27:50

No, I'm not day-to-day in Toronto. I kind of support the day-to-day guys and kind of give them directive and and work directly with them. So I work directly with Alan. Oh, and we love Alan. We do love Alan.

SPEAKER_00 28:03

Shout out, Alan. Was there any moments, I guess, from when you first started where you feel it seems you are very considerate of other people's mental healths, and especially with when it comes to your staff, I think you're very conscientious. But with you and your own mental health, were there some times where you feel you it slipped through the cracks a little bit? Especially when you're doing so much. Right? How could a nod I feel when you're so busy?

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah, I guess with my position, this is actually this is an interesting question. Nobody's really asked me this before.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

With staff, you have to be hyper-aware of the energy of the dining room, the energy of your staff. I always tell staff or especially front of house to pretend if there was a little face above each person, whether they're happy or sad or indifferent. And so you need to be able to spot that so you can kind of solve problems. I try to do the same with the staff. I walk in, I say hi to everyone. One of my things is despite all the restaurants, I make sure I know everybody by name and I make sure I say hi to everyone. Right? And I do this thing where I'm the Korean guy, I'll be like Anyangaseo, and then the Vietnamese aunties, I'll greet them a certain way, and just a little bit so they know that I know that they're here and I'm aware of them. That's really important. Um, for myself, it's it's tough when you're in a position where a lot of people are depending on you. Exactly. You don't really have time or space or the mental capacity to be like, I need to do something for me. A lot of the time I I do things based on okay, I have a moment now, okay, I'll just react this way, I'll just do this, or this is a quick fix, or I'm stressed, I'll just do a shot of whiskey or something to calm my anxiety. And so you go for those quick outs and you go, okay, this would do it, or and then yeah, have I developed some bad habits doing that? Yeah, I've developed some bad habits when my nerves are high and my heart's beating really fast. I know what could drop that.

SPEAKER_00 30:06

Maybe a shot.

SPEAKER_02 30:07

Yeah, a little bit of alcohol really slows my heart rate down.

SPEAKER_00 30:11

Yeah, and I feel like it just it just even just one just the knowing that it can even if it doesn't actually do that, right? It's just the knowing that it should do that, it it does it, right? Like last weekend I was so stressed. I was working with uh one of the other servers at NPM and it's just two of us, and we had the whole room to ourselves, and it was so packed. There's all these issues, and people were having a hard time paying. Everyone was like, Can I split this payment into multiple or split this bill into multiple payments? And it was just a lot for two servers, yeah, you know. And I my intention going into the night was to be sober. I was I'm gonna be sober tonight. I'm really trying not to drink at work, and I was sober up until one, and then an issue happened, and immediately I was like, give me a shot right now. I had this one table that was begging me to drink, and I was like, No, all night, I was no, I I can't. I'm like, no, and I faked a shot with them, and then one o'clock hit, and this issue happened, and I was what? Give me a shot right now. And then I actually had four shots within an hour, and immediately, of course, I felt a lot calmer the next morning, though, not even the next morning, right after the shift, I was kind of disappointed with myself. I don't know if you have that when you use alcohol as like a bit of like coping mechanism, a short-term kind of coping mechanism. You know, I think I could have I could have done this without alcohol, but yeah, alcohol just it's just easy sometimes. It is, it is proud of it.

SPEAKER_02 31:22

And that balance of life is so interesting. I always tell people, I was saying to you earlier, I am the good, the bad, and the ugly of myself, all kind of trapped into one. Yes, and they're all versions of me. And sometimes I do things that I'm disappointed in, or sometimes I'm oh, I'm not gonna drink this much, and then you do drink that much, and you're like, oh man, that's disappointing, right? Why did I do that?

SPEAKER_00 31:44

Do you use anything else to kind of cope with your mental health? Are there any other else you have? For instance, exercise, or do you talk to someone? Do you have a good support system? Because those are all good, or not good necessarily, but things I can help with your mental health.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

Definitely. I I think uh it's important to know your triggers and to know how to kind of deal with them and how to cope and how to. Read, I'm very self-aware, meaning when I say I know the good, the bad, and the ugly of myself, I know myself and I know what situations are poor for me and what situations that even though they're poor for me, I still kind of dive into, kind of going, whatever, I'll just deal with it. Future me will deal with it, which is actually bad, but future use.

SPEAKER_00 32:28

No, I don't I I don't want to deal with it. Yeah, it's enough time to deal with it.

SPEAKER_02 32:32

Sometimes with anxiety, you get a bit impulsive and you just do things without thinking. Even at my level, I still do dumb shit all the time. It's just that I have to deal with the dumb shit at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah, no one else, there's no mana you don't have a manager that's all. Nobody manages me. Ben's mistake now. I now have to do it.

SPEAKER_02 32:51

Yeah, so I have to own it and I'm gonna take it on the chin. But yeah, in terms of finding kind of relief, I box. I think I think hitting pads, getting punched in the face, it's there's nothing, right? It definitely you definitely release stress for sure. And I got a great boxing coach in Vancouver, his name's Joey. I'm just he's a brother, and he he just he knows he's all right, we gotta we gotta hit some pads today, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:17

Let's let's work through some things. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 33:20

So there's that I've I've had a couple therapy sessions, which I think are very, very important. I didn't know that I could understand myself that much better and why I behave a certain way. Gave me a little bit of clarity, not necessarily answers, it just gave me it kind of led me to answers faster.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

I love a good therapist. That's what they're a good therapist is supposed to do, right? Not necessarily give you the answers, but give you the tools to find the answers kind of yourself or give you the so that I'm not making any rash or poor decisions and I could really be okay, what am I supposed to do?

SPEAKER_02 33:56

And then lastly, in terms of it's not really a good thing, but I like to socially drink. That's sue him. That's an outlet, right? I try not to do it too often or too aggressively, but when I'm stressed, even my staff know they're like, hmm, chef looks like he needs a shot of whiskey.

SPEAKER_00 34:16

Right. And it sounds like you're a big whiskey guy, that's what I'm hearing.

SPEAKER_02 34:20

I really enjoy whiskey.

SPEAKER_00 34:22

I love that.

SPEAKER_02 34:23

But whiskey's not good for me. Too much whiskey turns me into it, it makes me evolve into a Pokemon I didn't want to evolve into, kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 34:32

If you are extroverted in any way, it feels really good connecting with people, drinking with them. You come home after night that and it feels you feel good, you know. Definitely feel warm inside.

SPEAKER_02 34:44

Social interaction, it's it's human connection. Human connection. It's what we want, right? It's what we create.

SPEAKER_00 34:48

That sense of belonging, right? And then alcohol doesn't help. Or no, sorry, it doesn't hurt. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

No, it doesn't hurt at all. I'm fully aw, I'm not the type to be able to go cold turkey, I'm not gonna do that, I'm not gonna do that. I could control and be like less of that, less of this, so that I'm a little bit more balanced. Moderation. But I also don't I don't really beat myself up too much if I'm oh Ben, you did, you you drank too much. I'm just you did that, you won't do that forever, kind of move on.

SPEAKER_00 35:15

It's a one-off thing.

SPEAKER_02 35:16

Yeah, especially in this industry, you don't really you you don't really escape it. It's it's there. So I'd rather learn to make peace with it and be like, okay, me and that bottle of bourbon, we're good. We're friends. Yeah, we're just not too close. Yeah, a little bit at a time, and we're okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

Oh that that's I was talking about this in some of my earlier episodes as well, but working on your relationship with alcohol, I am really trying to work on moderation right now. But I think a big part of it is making peace with the fact that it's always gonna be there. I used to put so much pressure on myself to go fully sober, and then I would be at a MPM and I'd want to have a couple of shots. I'd have some really fun tables, or someone would tip me a lot, or I've just had the just vibing. Yeah, yeah. Give me a shot, give me a shot. And then I would put so much pressure on myself to be sober, I'd feel so guilty if I ended up breaking it, which most times I would. But to be honest, what you're saying, right? Alcohol is so ingrained in the industry, you know, it's definitely hard to escape. So I think sometimes accepting it is just so important. There are some people who are sober in the industry. Yeah, I think that is I have so much respect for those people. I would have a really hard time doing that. Again, even going back to me last Saturday, I I was trying, guys. I was trying, I was trying really hard to go sober for that one shift. I was like one shift, couldn't even do it.

SPEAKER_02 36:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I completely agree. It's I I think it's it's balance and then being able to give yourself grace and know that it happens, it happens every once in a while.

SPEAKER_00 36:42

Do you think that there's because I know a lot about front of house. I've never worked back of house before. I've been a host, I've been a server manager at AMPM, I've done co-check, I've done a lot of front-of-house positions. I've never done a back of house position. And so I was kind of wondering about how that's is substance use really rampant in the back of house? Because I only, again, really know about the front of house. And I know it's quite rampant in the front of house, of course. There's just alcohol's literally right in front of you. In the back of house, I know it's not as accessible, but I do hear a lot of stories about people in the back of house having really severe substance use issues or addiction issues.

SPEAKER_02 37:18

Yeah, it's it's honestly exactly the same, if not more, just because we are kind of in the back. Nobody really sees us, right? Yeah, so you can be fucked up back there and I've going through the industry when I was younger, I I didn't really understand all of it, but I've seen people literally, oh man, I I didn't sleep all night. I'm just high on cocaine all shift. And I never experienced that yet. So I was, what is that? Right? And you would dig into the ice machine and you would see cans of beer in there, and it's very it's more sneaky.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

I feel it's more subtle.

SPEAKER_02 37:55

It's more sneaky. I used to be bad with it when I used to just fill up a coffee cup with whiskey and and that was just a thing. But is it as rampant in the back? Yes. It's if anything worse people cook specifically. The idea of having a cold beer at the end of your shift is such a natural thing, and that cold beer turns into two cold beers, into three cold beers, into shots, into more beer, and let's go out tonight. And then and then you do that, and and it's the thing to be, oh man, I got so fucked. I'm hungover for my shift. And it's everyone's hung over for their shift, but that you just do it.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

And then when people are doing it, I feel like most people when they're working, when their full time is in the industry, you're then doing that four or five times a week, and it gets it becomes this really toxic cycle you get stuck in. Because I've only really worked when I've worked in the industry, I've only been at whatever place I was working at, maybe once or twice a week. So I was impacted by it, but not that much. That'd be a lot though, doing four or five days a week, and you're in that stuck in that cycle. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

SPEAKER_02 39:03

It becomes a norm. I think most of my cook's life, that was just a thing. You you have beers after work, beers turn into shots, you don't sleep that much, you barely sleep, it's throw a little cocaine in there, which is rampant. Yeah, some Adderall. It is, it's it's in the industry. And then everybody wakes up kind of hung over. You have another beer, and then you go to work.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

I feel with the back of house, then would you say there's a lot of longevity with the staff back there? Do you feel like there's a high overturn because of that issue?

SPEAKER_02 39:34

It really depends on. I find that if the culture is good in the back of house, people tend to stay. And culture being people feel there's actually growth here, there's purpose. I'm I'm becoming something. Or I really the people I work with. I'll stick around, I'll do that. Also, it's do I like this restaurant? Do I like who's leading the program? That's very, very important.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

I've left to align with their values.

SPEAKER_02 39:58

Definitely. I've left jobs because the chef and I just didn't get along.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

Right.

SPEAKER_02 40:02

I was one of those guys who would challenge the chef as a cook. Yeah, I wasn't, I was really good at my job, but I wasn't necessarily the easiest person to deal with if you were a sous chef or a chef. Because I would give my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 40:19

To be honest, I think that's a good thing then that you have your own restaurant. That's why it's good. You're working for yourself. Yes. And to be honest, I was the same, and I don't have my own restaurant right now, but I do really need a management position at AMPM and I also really owning my own business with my own therapy practice. I was always kind of questioning things. No, I was kind of curious about your take on that, just because I do again not know that much about the back of house. And I was just wondering. I do I do know a few people that have worked back of house, and I I know that they, of course, have not all of them, but like some of the people I I know have had pretty severe substance use issues to the point where they've need to get help and seek support and get out of the industry in order to manage that substance problem. Some for some people that's a solution. And to be honest, that might be the solution for me in the future. I'm hoping to do maybe one more year of bottle service. I keep saying I said I said this four years ago. I'm hoping to do one more year of of service industry, but I do think that I for myself need to kind of get out of the service industry in order to manage kind of some of my drinking issues. I I don't know if it's necessarily an issue, but just behaviors, my drinking behaviors, because I do end up drinking every single shift I work at AMPM unless I'm on the antibiotics or something. Or I blacked out the week before and I'm kind of shamed out. I'm like I'm not drinking, but that's the only time I'll stop drinking, really.

SPEAKER_02 41:37

Fair enough. Yeah. I think it's it's again being in the industry, it's hard to escape. It's almost it's almost trying to be on a diet and then you're always around food in the restaurant. It's just very hard to not eat per se. And it's the same thing. It's very hard not to drink and not be social and and want to be have that camaraderie with with your staff or even your coworkers or your team, that kind of vibe. So, yeah, in terms of substance abuse in the in the kitchen, yeah, I've seen it. I've seen it throughout my career. I've seen different people go through it. The kitchen's one of those places where not everyone is necessarily there for career.

SPEAKER_00 42:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 42:15

They're passing through sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:17

And that's not every kitchen. A lot of kitchens have mostly career-driven people. Most people that are focused and and they're trying to grow in the culinary field. But in some smaller restaurants I've worked at or some pubs, or some I've worked at so many restaurants that I there are those people who are I've been threatened with an oyster shucker before. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Because we were arguing over what type of oyster it was, and he's just you're wrong, I'll stab you with this oyster sharker.

SPEAKER_00 42:45

Are you serious?

SPEAKER_02 42:46

Yeah, yeah. I was yeah, this was many years ago. But I'm also and this guy was like, I think he was fresh out of jail or something, and I'm you win. You win, you win. And I walked away. But yeah, there's all sorts of behaviors and characters in the kitchen.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

I feel it's more of a mixed bag in the kitchen, whereas when you think of a server or a host, you have a certain kind of persona when you when you visualize that person, right? It has to be someone that's a bit more personable and bubbly and social and extroverted. Yeah, that's kind of what you're expecting when you think of a front-of-house kind of character.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 43:20

And so I was gonna ask, do you feel like there's outside of substance use specific challenges that back of house kind of workers face isolation, things at from being in the back of the house and not interacting with the customers as much?

SPEAKER_02 43:32

I think being back in the house, back sorry, back of house, you're you're more challenged specifically because it runs a little bit different back there. The pressures are different, it's hot, and there's sharp objects, you could burn yourself. And it's always not to say that front of house doesn't have pressure, it's just a different pressure in the back. And then you have a chef, and hopefully he's a good leader. But if you don't have a good leader, he's more of the guy beating the drum, going faster, faster, more, give me more. A lot of Chefs back in the day. I actually I don't know about now, I don't know the entire industry, but back in the day, they were promoted because they were good cooks, not necessarily good leaders. So you promote the best cook, naturally has the highest ego because he thinks he's the best cook, not necessarily the best at being in tune with people. So he drives the ship a certain way. So yeah, would I use the word abuse in the kitchen? Yeah, we normalize abuse in the kitchen. We make it normal to for someone superior to call. It doesn't happen now, and it definitely doesn't happen in my kitchen.

SPEAKER_00 44:37

Oh, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_02 44:38

But back in the day, but back in the day, you did something wrong. You're an idiot. You're this, you're useless. Why are you so stupid? And you would just get crushed. Yeah. And you would just have to sit there and take it. I remember one incident, there was a chef. I put his tasting spoon, I set up his station, and I put his tasting spoons in the wrong side. Okay, this isn't a big this isn't a big deal.

SPEAKER_00 45:01

You got your ass beat, didn't you?

SPEAKER_02 45:02

He just was just why are you so stupid? You're stupid. Oh, are you stupid? Just stupid, stupid, stupid. I'm yes, chef, no chef. And you're just sitting there just taking this. Going, oh, I need this job. I need this job. I'm I'm trying to be a chef.

SPEAKER_00 45:15

It hurts your it hurts your self-esteem, and I feel ego over time, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:18

Like it does. It does. It crushes you. And some people get weeded out by that because I would. People get weeded out, right? Or some people are me or dumb enough to just stick it out and just be like, maybe there's light at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

And there was, thank God.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

And yeah, you you kind of take it on the chin, and you I've learned a lot about how not to behave more so than how to behave.

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 45:46

More so I'm I'm never gonna talk to someone like that. I don't feel good when that is said to me. So I'm not gonna do that to my staff.

SPEAKER_00 45:54

And I think that's what honestly makes the best owners and make what makes the best restaurants and bars and clubs, right? People who have worked and had these experiences in different positions, but also people who have learned from those experiences and applied it then, right, to their own place. Yeah. So I feel like that's that that's kind of been a major shift in the industry. It went from kind of more of that traditional old school approach where whoever was best at their job was promoted, not necessarily someone who is a leader. Whereas now you see people are more open to hiring a server with no experience because they're really personable or have good connections and just seem a really lovely and trustworthy person. For sure. And same with the back of house. Or if you're even promoting someone, people are promoted now based more on those uh peep kind of people qualities, I think, versus their immediate skill. It's not necessarily about how fast you can punch something in and bring it out, or how fast you can build someone out, or how many kind of orders you can do in X period of time. It's really those people skills, I think, are important.

SPEAKER_02 46:50

I agree because those people skills not only reflect to the guests, but reflect to the rest of the team. I I think it sounds cliche and it probably is, but attitude is everything. I'd rather get someone less talented with a better attitude. I think people that have more potential. I prefer to work with people like that to be at least this guy's eager, he's trying his best. Obviously, there's a minimum amount of skill set you need to have in a kitchen for you to be able to be somewhat successful, but other than that, I think we I always call it team cancer. You don't, you gotta be careful and recognize when there's someone in there that is no good for your team.

SPEAKER_00 47:26

Tumor.

SPEAKER_02 47:27

Yeah, and you gotta get rid of it.

SPEAKER_00 47:29

Yeah, we've had a few of those at A and PM. There's been a few people that have kind of come and gone throughout the years who have really you can just feel it. It's just one person will really impact the whole team. And when you're working at a restaurant or at a bar or a club, you are working as a team that everyone's equally important. No one's above another person. We all just have different roles. But yeah, when there is one bad weed in there, yeah, you can feel it.

SPEAKER_02 47:52

Definitely. It's just it's just kind of in the air.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

And there's tension and there's people start to talk badly about that person.

SPEAKER_02 47:57

And yeah, yeah. And it's just it's bad for everyone. It's bad for everyone. It throws everyone off.

SPEAKER_00 48:02

It's really a cancer. That's a great way to put it, actually.

SPEAKER_02 48:04

I always say team cancer.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

Team cancer.

SPEAKER_02 48:07

But you're such a good team now. With I'm lucky. I'm lucky we have such a good team. I'm I'm lucky, and yeah, I guess I just feel blessed. Honestly, I couldn't have I couldn't have done this without the amazing team I have.

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Mikey.

SPEAKER_02 48:22

Mikey, just great people overall that that put their trust in me. And it's so weird to say earlier I was I was talking about my kind of my role and how I'm the chef and how things are going well. And I was talking about uh imposter syndrome.

SPEAKER_01 48:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

Right? A good friend of mine mentioned this to me when I was telling her about the story and how I behaved, and and she was saying how amazing it was, and I'm that's so weird to hear because I never really kind of look at that as oh wow, I'm so amazing. This is this is a thing. And then she's like, You have imposter syndrome, you don't believe you deserve what you have. And maybe that's true to some percentage, because I never really look back at what's happening and and admire the success.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

I always go well where you came from, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Kind of like, what do we do next? What do we do next? I was saying earlier about in boxing, they say when you throw a punch, don't admire your punch, punch and then roll, move, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:22

So kind of apply that philosophy, I feel, to your work ethic.

SPEAKER_02 49:25

Definitely, and you're very hard on yourself as a whole, especially being a leader in the early days of Toronto, early days was like six months ago. But of Lunch Lady Toronto. Of Lunch Lady Toronto, sorry.

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Lunch Lady Toronto.

SPEAKER_02 49:38

There were moments where I didn't think I would behave that way because that just wasn't my vibe. But things got so intense that I was, oh, I have to be louder, I have to react a certain way. I threw an egg across the room. Are you serious? One day. I've never done that my entire career. Uh it was a fried egg. I was gonna be on like the chicken rice, a little crispy fried egg with a crispy edges.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

I can visualize it.

SPEAKER_02 50:03

It's delicious, right? So the egg hits the the pass, and I'm like, the edges are burnt. Get rid of this egg. And we're there's hundreds of eggs coming through, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 50:10

Same egg hits the pass again. I'm gonna throw this egg away. It's burned, it's burnt. Third time it hits the pass again. I see in a plate, I snatch it off the plate with my hands and the rice too, and I rifle it at the garbage. And the worst part about it is it doesn't go into the garbage, it hits the side and goes, and then all the service staff are looking at me, and then this young girl just goes and cleans it up, and I'm so embarrassed. I'm like, oh my god, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00 50:36

We snap sometimes though, human, and that's that's why it is so important to, as you know, right, to take care of your mental health at least a little bit outside of your workspace so that you don't have those moments as often, right? Again, I do think every now and then, every now and then, if you do have a moment like that, you're human, you're not a bad person. I I personally, if I was I was there, and I think I'm sure most of your staff, they weren't judging you. They're just oh Chef's Ben, Chef Ben is angry. He's he's hit his he's hit his breaking point, but I don't think they're judging you or thinking differently of you for that very humanity. No, no.

SPEAKER_02 51:08

I beat myself up a lot because I'm that's not the behavior I want to show and say it's okay. So I apologized after. I'm sorry guys. Sorry guys, got a bit heated. Please, no more burnt eggs. Right? I'm mad at the egg, not at you.

SPEAKER_00 51:23

Not at you guys.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

But then there were more like I threw some tofu into the garbage, I crushed a soft shell crab in my hand.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

I'm I'm not above you. I've snapped at definitely a few of the servers before, even I most of the servers, actually sorry, not most of them, all of them are my close friends. And I've snapped at them before, I've snapped at customers before. Sometimes people come up to me at the service station, and and I honestly do this more often than I should, and I'll just hold my finger up and I can I have a huge order in my head or multiple, and I can just feel someone about to say something to me, and I just I literally put my finger in their face and I'm like, Yeah, stop one second. One sec. Which I'm not proud of, but what happens sometimes? We are human at the end of the day. But I really do appreciate all of your insight today, and I appreciate just you coming in here and sharing your story and also hearing about some things that it sounds you've never really talked about before. That was so amazing to hear about. And it really makes sense as to why you're so successful now. Hearing your origin story and hearing the experience you have, it really seems like you've implemented that into your current work ethic and into your current businesses, and that's why they're all doing so well.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Thank you so much. I'm blessed. I always to just circle back. I'm completely blessed. I'm lucky, super privileged, super appreciative.

SPEAKER_00 52:35

But also hardworking. Gotta be hard working. Gotta be hard working.

SPEAKER_02 52:39

But no, thank you very much for having me. It's such a pleasure to sit here. Um, I'm honored. And it's such a good conversation.

SPEAKER_00 52:48

I know. This is so it's just so easy. I feel so lucky with all the guests that I've had on, but you guys just make it so easy to talk with being so open to share. So I appreciate you, Chef Ben. If you guys do want to learn more about Chef Ben, you can follow him on Instagram at cooking with Ben underscore.

SPEAKER_01 53:04

Correct. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

Yes. Okay. Just double checking and see what stuff he's kind of cooking up. If you want to hear more from little old me, you can follow me on Spotify and Apple Podcasts at Club Therapy. You guys see that sign? Club Therapy. And on Instagram at Club Therapy Pod. But yeah, we'll see you guys soon.

unknown 53:21

Bye.