Confidence Comes After You Speak, Not Before

Your body knows exactly when the stakes rise. The heart speeds up, the mouth dries out, the mind starts writing escape plans and suddenly all your competence is trapped behind a nervous system alarm. That’s where Helen von Dadelszen lives professionally: she’s a communication and vocal coach, a speaker, and the author of Courageous Action, and she helps smart, capable people close the gap between what they know and what they can actually say in the room. 

We dig into the practical side of confidence under pressure, starting with a simple reframe: nerves are normal, but they are not a stop sign. Helen explains how to map your own triggers and symptoms so you can interpret them with accuracy rather than fear, then choose tools that work for your body. We talk breathing for regulation, quick grounding techniques you can do at a table, and why slowing your speaking pace can instantly make you sound more confident while also calming both you and your audience. 

We also get into “communicating without pretending”: setting an intention for how you want to be perceived and aligning voice, body language, pauses, and pace so it still feels like you. Helen shares a vulnerable story about pitching in French at a networking event, plus a brilliant method for practising without cringing at recordings of yourself. If you’ve been waiting to feel ready before you speak up, this is your nudge towards courageous action, one small step at a time. 

You can find more information about Helen here:

• Book: https://courageousaction.ch/
• Me: https://academy.presentpotential.ch/
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/helen-von-dadelszen/

Subscribe for more practical confidence tools, share this with someone who dreads high pressure conversations, and leave a review if it helps. What’s the first situation where you want to treat nerves as a go sign?

Let’s Talk About Confidence is an educational podcast exploring confidence, behaviour, leadership, communication, and personal performance. The views shared are intended for general information and development purposes only and should not be considered medical, psychological, legal, or financial advice.

While practical tools and techniques are discussed, listeners are encouraged to seek appropriately qualified professional support where needed.

Opinions expressed by guests are their own. All content © Breakthrough Change Management Ltd.

Transcript

A Real Test Of Expertise

SPEAKER_01 0:03

Imagine you're an expert in exactly this. You've spent years studying what happens to people when the pressure goes up and the words won't come. You've coached executives, trained speakers, written the book and communicating under pressure. And then one day you're in the room. Mistakes are real. And your own nervous system does exactly what you've been teaching other people to manage. This is not hypothetical, it's not a client story. It's you. That moment, what it felt like and what she did and what it gave her afterwards is at the heart of today's conversation.

Why Confidence Is Built

SPEAKER_01 0:40

Welcome to Let's Talk About Confidence. I'm John M. Walsh. This podcast exists because confidence is the one capability that determines whether you'll attempt what matters most to you and whether you'll persist when it gets hard. It's not a personality trait, it's not positive thinking, it's a learnable behavior built through repetition, pressure, and real-world consequence. And today's guest has spent her career sitting at exactly that intersection between what we know and what we're able to do when the moment actually arrives. My guest today is Helen von Dierelsen. Helen is a communication and vocal coach, a speaker, and the author of a new book called Courageous Action, your playbook for communicating confidently. One small step at a time. She's originally from New Zealand, has worked across international organizations, including NGO work, trained in theatre, competed in Toastmasters, and is now based in Switzerland, where she works with professionals who know exactly what they want to say, but find that under pressure the body, the voice, or the mind gets in the way. Her work sits at a specific and underexplored point, the gap between competence and expression, the moment where what you know and what you can actually communicate in the room are two very different things. And her central argument, which is also this show's central argument, is that confidence is not something you wait to feel. It's something you build through action, small, courageous actions, taken before the confidence fully arrives. Helen, welcome to Let's Talk About Confidence.

SPEAKER_00 2:24

Thank you so much, John. I'm so happy to be here today.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Helen, it's quite a journey just in the introduction there. How did that come about? How did you move across all those different experiences?

Helen’s Anxious Childhood On Stage

SPEAKER_00 2:48

Well, I followed the opportunities, really. From a very young age, I was in the theater, and I think I was a very anxious child at the core. But because being on stage, performing in front of an audience almost constantly was just part of what we did as a family, I realize now as an adult that there was no space to actually consider being feeling nervous and then not doing the thing. I remember getting ready to stand on stage, so being in the wings.

SPEAKER_02 3:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

And a sister or brother or someone else I was, you know, acting with would say, Are you ready? We would never look around and say, Oh, are you nervous? I'm nervous. And so this with hindsight, I realized meant that even though I felt the nerves, the nervous reaction in our body constantly, it I never interpreted it as a sign to not do the thing. But this I really hadn't understood until a couple of years ago when I started to write my book. And I over time built ways of subconsciously and then consciously managing those that nervous system reaction and doing the thing anyway. And so moving across the world without a job at the age of 23 indeed was courageous. And some people who I've met subsequently think, oh, you know, you were so brave to do that. And then, for example, I was living in Edinburgh, had little jobs here and there, got a bit frustrated, and my mum suggested, why don't you go to Milan, Italy, and teach English? And so I said, okay, I'll go and do that, having had no English teaching experience, very, very little Italian, knowing no one there. And so this was at a quite a young age where I guess I was freer to explore.

unknown 5:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:03

But I remember also being very, very nervous. But it's as though I followed the opportunity each time and didn't let all of the doubts and all of the physical reactions stop me from trying the next thing. And so I think that that is at the core of my life if I think back on it now, although I did not realize this at the time.

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yeah. It's amazing. It's the I love the your family member saying to you, are you ready? So it's a given. So that all those different experiences you've done, there's you know, there's a lot of courage in that. What what is it you think? How did you manage to just do it as opposed to maybe letting the nerves take

Nerves As Normal Not A Stop

SPEAKER_01 5:52

over?

SPEAKER_00 5:52

I think I didn't give myself a choice. I didn't realize there was a choice. I think so, because from such a young age, we were all on stage and performing and singing, and we didn't even talk about how we were feeling. We were talked about what we were about to do. And so it's as though it was brushed over, which might not be a positive thing, but in the end, it taught me that this is normal, this is natural way of being human, yeah, but it's not something that's should stop you. Because what I find is that many people do not do the thing because the reaction in their body is so strong. And they think that because the body is screaming out, no, don't do it, danger, danger. You know, we go into fight, flight, or freeze, then they listen to that and they say, Oh, then then I shouldn't do it. And they think that feeling those feelings, very physical feelings, yeah, are a sign to not take the opportunity to not speak up. And therefore, they don't.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

Wow. And did you did you still have those feelings that you overruled them or there was honestly, John?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

I don't remember as a kid feeling nervous when I was performing.

unknown 7:28

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I do know that I was an anxious child. Yeah, I worried a lot about many things. I'm one of five children. So I don't know if that helps explain a little bit the situation. Where do you fit in the I'm the eldest daughter, so second in line.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

And I don't know what that says about that, about that, but I don't remember standing on the side of the stage and feeling those feelings. Wow. I was so focused on, am I going to remember the steps? Or, you know, are my shoes done up or whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

Yeah.

unknown 8:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:09

And I guess I was breathing, I must have been, but I wasn't consciously calming down my nervous system at all. Not at all. So I know that I was anxious as a child. I really worried about everything. But in terms of the performance, that performance anxiety, the nervousness that I help people manage, I cannot remember it. But but of course, since then I've been more aware of it. And so in in work, putting up my hand, having to present in front of a board, competing in toastmasters, all of these I've become much more aware of what's happening in my body. And I think subsequently that has helped me to now overcome the nerves, or as I like to say, transform them into positive energy. Right. So you can listen to your body and the heart racing and the hands trembling as a sign that there's danger and you shouldn't do it. Or you can flip that over and say, This is a normal human reaction. I can use that energy to show my passion, to bring more energy and connection for the audience, for example.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

And and this is what you work specifically on from you know, looking at your book, your website, et cetera, is this bit about what happens when the body, voice, mind under pressure, what happens? So how do you help people manage that, Ellen? What do you what can you offer them tools, uh techniques? What is it you do to help them manage all three of those areas?

Map Your Triggers And Symptoms

SPEAKER_00 9:45

Yeah, for sure. So the third first thing is to become aware of your own reactions. So I split that into two. One is in what situations do you feel most nervous? Because we think that everyone's the same and that it's a universal truth. Well, in fact, some people get more nervous for a one-on-one discussion, and others, it depends on the bigger the size, the more nervous they get. Some people get more nervous or less nervous online, for example. So it really is a personal thing. And so I get people to map out what it is for them so that the more we are aware of things, the better we can manage them. So that's sort of the situational. And then what I find really powerful is to start tuning into how your body reacts. So, for example, for me, my handshake. Yeah, I feel my handshake when I'm nervous. So when people say, you know, are you nervous? I look at my hands and usually they're shaking, and I say, Yep, I'm ready. Okay, that is a sign that the adrenaline is going through my body, yeah, and then I'm ready to perform. If I'm too still, I'll think, hmm, maybe I'm ready, maybe I'm not in the right state to perform at my best.

unknown 11:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:04

So it's not universal that everyone blushes, that everyone's legs tremble, that everyone's mind goes blank. It's very individual. And so I get people to start recognizing which symptoms they have of the stage fright. And once they know that, when they're actually in the situation, they will interpret that differently. It's not like, oh no, my heart's racing. Something must be wrong. It's oh my heart's racing. Oh, yeah. That's what Helen said about when I'm nervous, my heart races. Okay, that's good. Things are on track. And that already makes them feel a little bit more grounded.

unknown 11:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:48

And then once we sort of have that picture, we can come up with techniques to minimize those reactions, not get rid of them, but minimize them so that we can still perform.

unknown 12:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

It's not about getting rid of them, it's about getting them to a state that is manageable. So, for example, the first one I always go to is breathing.

unknown 12:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:12

Right? We have to breathe to tell our body that it's safe. And so breath in and then a longer breath out calms and resets your nervous system. So if you just do that two or three times, you should already feel calmer. And then there are different techniques for different symptoms.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

Yeah. What I particularly found fascinating there is number one, you're looking at your trembling hand and saying, right, I'm ready. And the opposite, when it's not trimming, you're going, hmm, what's going on? Love that. We talk about you know a few episodes back about situational confidence. But what you've done there, I think, is amazing. It's you've gone micro-situational. So, and it highlights, and I think it's a great thing for anyone listening that gets this. Everybody's different. Some people may have a heart race, and some people maybe they're shaking hands. That's great. But you're mapping that out and saying, right, and again, the other distinction you made was is it when someone's online, is it when someone's in front of a boat? Is it one-to-ones? It's amazing. And I think it it kind of helps people to realize that we might be confident in some areas and not as confident in others, and that's okay, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 13:28

And if we are confident in some areas, can we not recognize that and see what we were doing or how we were feeling or how we were preparing and bring that into the areas where we feel less confident? Yeah, yeah. Because if we can show up in a certain way in one situation, you know, there are there is evidence that you can do it in other situations. But I'd like to know from you, John. When you think of maybe you don't get stage fright anymore, but you probably do. Do you know how you feel it in your body? I'd love to know.

SPEAKER_01 14:04

Yeah, totally.

Butterflies Before Big Crowds

SPEAKER_01 14:05

So the thing that gets me, if I'm standing in front of a group of, you know, entering up to 12, 20, you know, whatever, 50, easy. Because I've done it so much, that sounded terrible, me saying it's easy. It's because I've done it. I remember the first one I ever stood up in front of a group about 12 people, it was absolutely dreadful. I was so nervous. I couldn't remember what meant to say, but that that's going back. But then slowly but surely as you do it, one, two, three, ten, a hundred thousand, it you get more confident. It's the theatre sort of stuff. So if I've got to go, say it's a conference with 2,000, 3,000 people, and I go out to do a session, say 30 minutes, 20 minute talk, I find standing the wings, it's in my stomach. It's my gut reaction. I've got I've got real butterflies, and that translates to my head saying, Why did I see it do this?

SPEAKER_00 14:52

Oh, yes, yes, why did I do this? So coming back to the stomach, the butterflies in the stomach. One of the sayings that I have borrowed is teach your butterflies to fly in formation.

unknown 15:06

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

Isn't that a beautiful visual? So your stomach is working over time because in fact it stops digesting because it's in a state of survival.

SPEAKER_02 15:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:17

That's why you have that reaction.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

And I don't have anything specific for that, but just knowing that you know there's that feeling, yeah. If you can visualize the butterflies still there, yeah, and they're beautiful butterflies. You know, so I imagine, you know, beautiful multicolored butterflies, can they fly in formation to sort of help you get through that moment?

SPEAKER_01 15:38

That's a good one, no? It's a f it's amazing. Thanks, Helen. I'll use it. We we talk about the three things we normally say about changing, you know, if we're feeling a bit nervous, we would say one is change the meaning, which is what you've done beautifully for me. Second is change environment, third is change physiology, which we're talking about with the breathing and other things. But I love that, that would help. And I think there's there's a bit where if you've memorized your first couple of lines, oh yes, and practice the way you see them so they they're authentic, that that makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

Yeah, I would say the big get getting your opening clear in your head, yeah, not just what you want to say, but how you want to say it, practice out loud.

SPEAKER_02 16:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Then usually you feel like you're off to a good start, right? So it's getting off that the diving board. So it's that first bit that's hard. But once you get to that, yeah, you and you see that people aren't throwing tomatoes at you or booing you off the stage, then you usually feel a little bit more safe in a way and secure to move on to the next piece. So that's really key. I love that. That's a great tip.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

That's great. Thanks for asking. Because it brings back those memories. It's great. And there's a bit in your head as well where you're saying, but I love doing it. Because you do, you know, you call it this is the price to pay for doing that. And especially there's always there'll be some music that they may have chosen or have chosen to play you onto. And then when that starts, you know, and even now saying a summer's night of like it is just now, we're sitting in the garden, and maybe one of those songs will come on. Um I get a tremendous rush of good feelings from it. I think, oh my god, that takes me back to the X conference.

SPEAKER_00 17:26

But this is a great tip as well, John. I recommend people to find a power song.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Yeah. Oh wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

As though that is the song that has welcomed them onto the stage. And in some of my events, I actually do that with my keynote speakers. Yeah, you know, so it could be one of my favorite ones is titanium. Oh you know, it's you know, titanium or bulletproof, or you know, there's so many great power songs. So it could be, I don't know, I'm every woman, or simply the best, or you know, whatever makes you feel good and in the right state, then you can play that even as you're waiting backstage or on the drive to wherever you're going, just to help change the the energy and put you in a better state.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

It's funny, isn't it? We under, I think sometimes we underuse this kind of thing, Helen.

SPEAKER_00 18:14

Well absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

And the the one thing you said, you were saying that, you know, like practice

Practise Without Cringing At Yourself

SPEAKER_01 18:19

it. And the number of folks I'm finding when I talk to them about you, maybe they're going to have a difficult one-to-one with someone, and I never thought about your angle of that might be where they're most nervous. But say it's a one-to-one they're doing, and they're going, I'm not sure I say right. Well, practice it with someone you trust, like at home, perhaps, even though they may not understand the context, at least you're going to say it out loud, and you can see folks going, Oh, I get embarrassed. You see, and have you got any tips how you go over that embarrassment, you know, of I feel stupid saying it out loud or saying it to a mirror or anything like that?

SPEAKER_00 18:52

I mean, I I struggle with this as well, John. It really does feel awkward because you're essentially performing without an audience or a fake audience. Yeah. And I guess there are different ways. The thing is, it helps. It definitely helps. It's worth doing, especially finding your words, especially if you don't have a script, finding the words in the moment, just getting that, doing that a couple of times can help. So, yes, if you've got someone you can do it with, a colleague, a friend who's just there, not even necessarily giving feedback, but just as some eyes to look at, right? Um, and maybe one tip that I have that makes it a little bit less daunting if you do want to practice and then look at what and listen to what you what you've done is to record it and then listen without watching, yeah, and then watch without listening. Because nobody likes to really watch or hear themselves speak.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:51

And I find that that can be so off-putting to get all of that input in once, yeah. And at once, so you can split it up. So you watch the video without the sound. Ah, oh, that's a funny thing I'm doing with my head or my hands, or oh, I actually look quite confident. Or, you know, it's okay when I look up and think about what I want to say.

SPEAKER_02 20:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

Right. And then, but if there is anything to work on, you could just concentrate on the physical. Maybe you're standing a little bit on the side or you're moving your hands in a strange way, or or crossing your arms, you know, which sometimes you don't realize. And then once you've done that, turn the phone over. Don't look at it, and just listen to your voice.

SPEAKER_02 20:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:35

Are you speaking too quickly? Are you giving your audience enough pauses? Is are there any words that you're stumbling over? Is it coming out how you want? And so by doing that, it kind of makes it more approachable to be a little bit critical.

SPEAKER_02 20:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

You're really just listening for the words and the way you're saying it and uh separately looking and thinking about physically how it's showing up.

SPEAKER_01 21:01

That's so good, Helen. I've never thought of all these, I've never thought that. And that is a fantastic tip. Take the video. I've never thought, I don't know why I never thought of that. Because it's so the minute you said it, it was like so obvious and so helpful. So thank you. Thanks for sharing that.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Little tip. I love practical little tips. That's what I'm all about.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

And I saw that in, you know, just looking at your website, looking at your book. It was what struck me, and I think why it's great that we're we're talking to each other is this practical. I love practical. Because there's so many times, I mean, this is one of the big things we talk about is just think positive. And you go, what does that even mean? I've got no idea what you're talking about. Whereas what you just said, things like find that piece of music, because that changes your state to one of more perhaps being open to stuff. But there's something I wanted to ask. This one just really fascinated

Sound Confident Without Pretending

SPEAKER_01 21:48

me. I thought I love it. It's this you talk about communicating without pretending. And that I was like, What what what do you see there? It was more about being clear, credible without because. Coming over polished or doing a performance. That was the bit that struck me. I thought, that w you know, where do you see that or where did that come from? That idea.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

So one of the reasons that I talk about, you know, not pretending is that a lot of what I work on with my clients is a little bit what you might call theatrical.

unknown 22:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Right. So maybe someone will come to me and they speak really monotone like this. And hi, I'm really happy to be here. And it's not getting across the enthusiasm and the passion that they want. Yeah. Right. So we work on breaking those vocal habits. Yeah. Okay. This is sort of on the side, this is my voice coach, at least not really my confidence coach, but in fact, they work together. And they feel like they're acting. Oh no, but I'm not an actor. That's not me. And so what I try to get them to do is set an intention of how they want to be perceived, you know, for each intervention they have. So imagine they have, as you said, like a difficult conversation, a one-on-one, giving some feedback. How do they want the other person to perceive them? Do they want them to feel like you're authoritarian and asserting your space? Maybe. Maybe you want them to feel supported. Maybe you want them to think that you are professional, know what you do you're doing. So I get people to think about what are those attributes. And then we move, we look at the voice, the body, and what people are saying and try to match that. So for example, typical one is I want to sound confident. Okay. So we have feeling confident, but then we also have sounding and looking confident. And you can look and sound confident before you feel confident. That's a good tip.

SPEAKER_02 23:48

Brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

So how does a confident speaker speak? Well, they speak really quickly and then they don't care about anyone else and they speak like this. No, they slow down. Yeah, they have big pauses. I always compare to Obama because we've all seen him speak, and he has this amazing way of holding space.

unknown 24:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:10

Never rushed. And a lot of people I work with are speaking English as a second or third or fourth language.

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:18

And for some reason I do it the same when I'm speaking French. We speak too quickly because we think in the other language, the quicker we speak, the more fluent we sound, therefore we're confident. But it does the opposite. When we speak too quickly, it raises our it raises our heart rate and the people listening to us. And it doesn't make us feel confident at all. So slowing down that pace can make you sound more confident, for example. And then there are other things. For example, when you're slowing down and you're pausing more, you've got less filler words. So that's um, like if I am kind of, you know, speaking like this, then you I don't sound confident. No, right? So once you have an intention, how you want to be perceived, and you define that, and then you work with how what you're saying, what how your voices and body is supporting that, then you can align with that, and then you're not pretending, it's still you, yeah, it's a better version of you, yeah, it's an intentional version of you, yeah, but it's you're not pretending to be anyone else. That's where that comes from.

SPEAKER_01 25:25

Brilliant. That's really there's so much to unpack in there. The bit that really struck me, and I never thought of this before that if you speak quickly, your heart rate goes up, and the audience's heart rate goes up.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Yeah. So you you can use speed to get people excited.

SPEAKER_01 25:43

But also if you want them to be excited.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Exactly. And then you slow down. So then you go, and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do this, and we're gonna do this. And then at the end, yeah, we will achieve that. Right? So it's the variety that's the power. And then when we slow down, we're highlighting, we're underlining those final words.

SPEAKER_01 26:07

I think, and the other thing where you started the conversation on this was the bit where what do you want the audience to feel? I thought because I was thinking, you know, you were talking about the monotone person. I've seen folks like that where you go, right? How do I get them to get some energy in their voice? And what you just done there was beautiful because it was saying, How do you want the other people to feel when you talk? And if they say I want them to feel interested, so you gotta talk interestingly. I get that, it's brilliant. And it's still you, right? It's still about yeah, not pretending. Yeah, I I get that, and that makes so much sense to me. When I was looking at it, I was intrigued by it, and I thought that's what I wanted to ask you

French Pitch Panic And Grounding

SPEAKER_01 26:46

about. And you you were kind enough to share because what one of the questions I asked you before coming on was this uh is it was there a moment in your life when you felt you know a challenge? And you shared this one about when you were sort of doing a presentation in French and how that kind of felt a bit different for you. Could you talk us through what happened? How did you manage it?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Yeah, so I tell everyone, and it's true, that I still get nervous. I get nervous before coming on the podcast, before running a meeting, a workshop, it all the time. It's normal, it's not a problem. And I've got used to managing it and channeling it. But a few months ago, I stepped out of my comfort zone, pushed my comfort zone out a little bit, and said that I would do a very short pitch in French at a French networking event. So my French is good enough. I wouldn't say I'm fluent, but it's it's okay. But I really had to coach myself in preparing for this. There were multiple times in the days and hours leading up to this event where I just said, no, I'm not gonna do it. What I don't need to do this. Why am I putting myself through this? No, I'm not going to do it. Yeah. Multiple times. I said, I had to keep calm yourself. You're going to do it, it's going to be fine. But the point, the reason I gave you this example, John, was because I remember sitting at the table, it was a round, white table, and I knew that it was almost my turn to speak. And my heart was beating so hard and so loud. I literally thought other people could hear it. I'm not used to this level of stress anymore in my body, but I really felt the heart rate going. And of course, my head was, there's the exit, go now. No one's going to, no one's going to know. So I just did what I know works.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

I concentrated on my breathing, yeah. A longer out breath than an in-breath. And there's one that I particularly like at the moment called the physiological sigh, which really works for me. So that we breathe in normally, we pause, we sniff up, we pause, and then we sigh out. But in public, we would just take a long out breath. And I did that two or three times, and I felt my fingers on the table, which is another grounding technique to make your body feel safe, that there's no lion running after me. It's not life or death. And then I went for it. And I know that my voice, my performance, my body can overcome the grammatical and accent errors that I have in French. And once I got up there and I saw the smiling faces and I smiled back at them, I just went with it. Now it wasn't perfect, yeah, but it's not supposed to be perfect.

SPEAKER_01 29:56

No at all.

SPEAKER_00 29:57

Enjoyed it. They respected me because they could tell that you know it's not my mother tongue. And I had plenty of people coming up and engaging with me afterwards. So it was a job done. And now I can tick that off my list.

unknown 30:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

And I'm not telling you I will do it many, many more times. And I won't tell you that I won't get nervous again. But this is me practicing what I preach, yeah. Saying just because you're nervous doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. It was great, it broke that barrier. And then a few months later, I ran a my very first longer workshop in French.

SPEAKER_01 30:31

Wow. That's amazing. It's I love that line you used there. It was uh it was to do with you and the nerves and keep doing it. I I can't, we'll have to listen to the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 30:44

We'll have to listen back.

SPEAKER_01 30:46

There was a beautiful line there. It was that I thought, oh my god, you got it took me off in a trance if I'm honest, and I was going like, God, that's such good. It was that kind of be being nervous is okay. And it's acting whilst feeling nervous, which is what you've been saying all along, really. But it's great. And I love the hands on the table. What was that? Just put your fingers.

SPEAKER_00 31:07

Push the bit to the table or so whatever works for you. I've got clients who touch their rings, for example.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Oh, got you, got you, got you, got you, got you, got you.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

So grounding and ankling.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

Yeah, yanking, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

It could just be you've got a pen or you put your hand on the table and you but you really feel it, huh? It's not just, oh, that's my table. No. Oh, it's smooth, it's cool, it's it's rough, or that you know, whatever. To help your body understand that it's safe, it's and you get back into your body. Because we tend to float up into our heads and into worst-case scenarios when we're f feeling very nervous. So it's a way of getting back into the body. Same as you know, grounding your feet, yeah, imagining the roots, it then being rooted, whatever works for you.

SPEAKER_01 31:49

Yeah, I got it. It's it's the it's the paying attention to in this example. You'd use the table, it's paying attention to how it feels when you said, is it smooth? Is it rough? Is it wood? What is it cool? Is it warm? So you're all turn, your focus of attention is going to that instead of got you. That's beautiful. That is uh fantastic technique.

Why The Book Is Courageous Action

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Helen, I want to talk about the book. Now, you've called the book courageous action. Why not confident action? Why what would what made you choose? Was that deliberate choice to go let's have courageous action?

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yes, it took me a while to get the title. Originally, I wanted to call it something about confidence by action or in action. Yeah, and I knew that it needed to be grounded in action. And the way, the reason that I ended up with courageous is that yes, the action part is a bit obvious, I think. We need to act, we need to do the courageous bit is we need to do it bravely. Yeah, we're not going to feel totally ready when we do it. And so this is the this is the idea behind it. And actually at the beginning of the book, I defined what that meant. So maybe I'll read that out for you. Courageous action.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Can you choose for the for those that are watching in video? Can you close the cover? For those in radio, I'll describe the cover. Courageous action. I'm colorblind, so I can't tell you the colour. What color is that?

SPEAKER_00 33:09

Oh, okay. It's a beautiful blue. That's my my my logo color. And then green, like a green for go color. And again, there's a whole story behind the behind the the image as well that my designer did for me. So courageous action. One, a deliberate choice to act despite fear, discomfort, or uncertainty. Two, the process of moving forward with bravery, even when the outcome is unknown or feels risky. And three, small intentional steps that build confidence through practice, not perfection.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

That's amazing. Great, great definition.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

I'm very happy, very happy of finding that title, because it totally works.

SPEAKER_01 33:56

I get it. I get it. Because it's it stood out to me when you know when we first started talking the courageous action. But it yeah, totally. And even in the subtitle, you've got the the last part of it, step by step, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 34:10

I think one small step, that was it.

SPEAKER_01 34:13

I knew it was like and I think that's one of the key messages we we put out to folks is that you know, confidence isn't something you're born with, it's something you build, and it's one step at a time. And I love the fact you put in there it's not perfect because we kind of learn more from the things we fail at than the things we do well. We've got an episode that talks about why high achievers sometimes come to confidence crisis. And a lot of this to do with that they've they've learned something, they've been good at it, good at it, good at it, good at it, and they've never had the opportunity to experience failure and recorrecting. So that's uh I love it. I love it. Where can we find the book, first of all?

SPEAKER_00 34:52

So there's a website, courageousaction.ch. So ch is the Swiss website. Yeah. Otherwise, it's on Amazon.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

And um and will you give me the links and I'll put it in the podcast description for anyone listening that wants to get a copy of Ellen's book? Absolutely. We'll put the link and other links in, but we'll talk about that at the end.

Small Steps Toastmasters And Celebrating Wins

SPEAKER_01 35:16

If anyone's listening, they're waiting to feel confident before they act. They keep putting things off until they feel ready. What would you say to them?

SPEAKER_00 35:25

I would say choose just one small thing that you can do. So, for example, I don't like making phone calls, and I know I'm not alone in this, especially now, many, many people. So I over-prepare probably for these conversations. I write down what I want to say, and then I say this afternoon, I put it in my calendar. I've got half an hour, I need to bring the dentist, the doctor, the teacher, whatever it is, and I sit down deliberately and do this. And I know that I'm not going to feel very comfortable, but maybe I get a nice cup of coffee, maybe I put on some music before, I make sure that everything else is turned off so I can concentrate on this. And then it might seem silly to some people that this is this could be this is still a small action.

unknown 36:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

And once I've done one, I can do the other. And I sort of like I shake it out a little bit after the first. Oh, I did it. Great. Okay, next one. And I don't, and I just use that momentum and that dedicated time to do it. So it depends what you're working on, but I would say, you know, don't sign up for a TEDx immediately if you want to get over your stage, right?

unknown 36:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

Find an opportunity that you can go and introduce yourself to someone new.

unknown 36:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Uh Toastmasters is a great place where you can practice. So they're international, it's an international organization where we practice public speaking and leadership skills. There will be a meeting near you, no matter where you are in the world, you'll you're welcome as a guest to most clubs. Yeah. Go and just do that.

unknown 37:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:11

You have introduced yourself. Hi, my name is Helen. I'm here because I want to get over my stage, right? Great, that's great. And then you celebrate it. That's the other tip I'd have. Celebrate those small wins. Yeah. Recognize the steps that you're taking to build up your confidence.

SPEAKER_01 37:28

That's so true. Because we do we sometimes we don't do it. We kind of go, you know, when someone gives you a compliment and says, Oh, that was really good. And you say something, oh no, it wasn't. You try and deny it. Yeah. And I got taught that many years ago. If someone came up to you and said, you know, back in the day when we wore ties, you know, someone would say, Oh, that's a nice tie. And you go, Oh, yeah, do you think you know that I just bought it or whatever, I just threw it on or whatever. Whereas they taught us, just say, just accept it. Thanks. Thank you. And it just changes everything, didn't it? So someone says, Oh, I really like that, and you go, Thanks.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

Yeah, that's all that's needed. You don't need to, exactly. And this is fighting against the negativity by bias.

unknown 38:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:07

Right? There is research and and I've read different different research around it, but one of the what one of the statistics I heard was that it took for every nine, was it in every oh I've forgotten which way it goes now, but for every nine comments that are negative, no positive. No. Oh, I've got it mixed up.

unknown 38:32

Don't worry.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Do you remember the one?

SPEAKER_01 38:34

So it's basically this is where we need Google.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

This is where yeah, or chat GPT. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

No one uses it. No one uses that.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

No, the idea is that the negative device is so strong in us that for every negative comment we see, we need nine positive to weigh it. So this is why when we do something, we notice something positive, we need to celebrate it and take a moment to to lift it up so that we see the more positive.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Because it's very easy as humans, we we check our surroundings, we check for the negative, the danger.

unknown 39:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:15

And that's why we're wired that way. And so this is why it's so important to celebrate even the little wins, even that phone call you made, that one time you put your hand up in the meeting.

unknown 39:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:25

And I guess it's just taking time to reflect on it. Just a second, a 10 seconds, a 15 minutes, whatever it is you need just to be somewhere quietly thinking that was good.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

Yeah. And why why did why was it good? Was it the preparation? Was it the sound song I listened to? Was it the breathing exercise? Was it that one person who smiled at me?

SPEAKER_02 39:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:48

So this is why throughout my book, I've got lots of space for reflection because I think it's really important to do.

unknown 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:56

That is brilliant. Really good.

Nerves Are A Go Sign

SPEAKER_01 39:59

Helen, if there's one thing you wanted every listener to take away from the conversation we've had, what would that one thing be?

SPEAKER_00 40:10

That being nervous is normal. It's a human reaction. But don't interpret those signs as a stop sign, see it as a go sign.

SPEAKER_01 40:25

That's brilliant. That's amazing. Helen, thank you so much for spending the time with us. It's it's been fantastic. And I love the the the story of you, how you got there, the the work you've done, the way you push yourself as well. And I think the key thing that's coming out, and what it sounds like in the book and the work you do is it's all practical. It's stuff that and and the way you talk about people will be different, you know, it might be one-to-one, I'm nervous, sort of standing in front of a stage, but it's like tailoring all this to me as a person, where's my areas that I get nervous and I want to be courageously confident. So thank you so much for sharing it. It's been an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

You're welcome. Thank you so much for the opportunity.

SPEAKER_01 41:11

It's fantastic. It's been great to catch up with you. And please give me all your links. I'll put them in the podcast description so folks can find your books, find your work, and uh be able to contact you should they want to learn more about this fascinating stuff that you do. Fantastic. Thank you very much. I'm John M. Walsh. This is Let's Talk About Confidence, and we'll see you in the next episode. Bye for now.