Long Obedience, Leadership, and Serving Youth for Three Decades with Scott Arnold

Longevity in leadership is increasingly rare—but faithfulness over time leaves a powerful legacy. In this episode of First and Focused, we sit down with Scott Arnold, Executive Director of Central Ohio Youth For Christ, to discuss three decades of serving youth in one city.

Scott shares what he walked into when he first stepped into leadership, the “Only God” stories that shaped the ministry’s growth, and how he has remained steady through both organizational challenges and personal grief. We also discuss marriage, perseverance, and what long obedience teaches about trust. This episode is a thoughtful reflection on endurance, calling, and the quiet strength required to keep showing up year after year.

To learn more about Youth for Christ: https://yfc.net/

Connect with Central OH YFC: Central Ohio Youth for Christ

Connect with Scott Arnold: Scott Arnold | LinkedIn

Connect with Mark Greaves: https://www.markgreaves.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is a weird question to ask, but do you ever wish God would provide a little bit more um advanced vision and runway? Initially, as a leader, I was pretty terrified by it. I think God uh I mean the obvious answer is he wants to teach dependence. The reality is if you expect life to be easy, you will probably bail on this. And it's when you get a taste of it's worth it, and you have the expectation it's gonna be hard.

SPEAKER_05 0:24

Leading this, you've already alluded to it a couple of times. There's not a lot of staff that can sustain because you're you're dealing with the tough stuff.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

I I think that I think you've got to really own the question of are you called to something? And to anybody that I would influence, I would really press them. You think God changed his mind that quick?

SPEAKER_05 0:43

Welcome to First and Focused, the podcast where faith meets leadership. I know you're gonna put me on the spot. I don't know what you're gonna ask me to say. I'm Mark Greaves, and in each episode I sit down with business and industry leaders who put God first in their work and stay focused on building his kingdom through their calling. I can sit here and talk with you all day. Keep up the great work, brother. I love you.

SPEAKER_04 1:03

I love watching what Jesus is doing in your life.

SPEAKER_05 1:13

All right, everyone. Welcome to First and Focused. Uh, the podcast where we bring in leaders from various industries who are putting God first through their work and pursuing Jesus in uh their mission today. We are honored to be sitting here with Mr. Scott Arnold, the director of Central Ohio Youth for Christ. So thanks for being here, Scott.

SPEAKER_00 1:30

Thanks for having me. I look forward to this.

SPEAKER_05 1:31

I've I've been looking forward to this one uh specifically since you said yes. Uh you've got a lot of wisdom in that brain. I already told you we're gonna try to unlock it and pull out as much as we can, but there's not a lot of leaders in our city who have been at it as long as you have.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

So there's a few of us still knocking around, but it's it's a smaller and smaller group for sure. That's true. That's true.

SPEAKER_05 1:50

All right. Well, I got an intro for you. I'm gonna do an intro for everybody. So uh here we go. Scott Arnold, you are the executive director for Central Ohio Youth for Christ, a position that you've held for nearly 30 years, serving the youth of our city through various ministries and services. Your operation comes in many forms, some of which are listed here: City Life, Def Teen Quest, the Equip Auto Skills and Sales Center, Grace Haven, Parent Life, Juvenile Justice Ministries, Wellspring Counseling, and YFC Camp. You're a graduate of the Ohio State University, Go Buckeyes. You hold a master's degree in biblical studies from Ashland University. You've been described, and this is true, by many in business as the best CEO not working in the for-profit sector in our state. You're a husband, a father, you have a surprisingly low number of gray hairs for your age, and most importantly, a lover and follower of Jesus Christ. That's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_05 2:40

That's a lot of ministries.

SPEAKER_00 2:41

I hope I can live up to that.

SPEAKER_05 2:43

Well, you already are on the gray hair front. There you go. I commented about that all the time. I'm like, man, some of you guys just, yeah, you're just not giving in to this old age thing.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

I told you, I just won the lottery on genetics. I don't, I can't explain it. Uh I get accused of dyeing my hair, actually, but uh but it's all real.

SPEAKER_05 3:00

It's all natural, they would say. Scott Arnold, all natural. That's what we were gonna get out on this podcast. If anybody remembers one thing, that's what the that's what's gonna stick. All right. So uh first question is um there's a lot of people who I know who have had just a continual dependence on the Lord throughout their ministries, and a lot of nonprofit leaders they talk about that and they tell stories. You had a story the first time we met about when you walked into YFC. This is a long time ago. But the situation that you walked into and the amount of trust and faith that you had to have in the Lord to provide through that moment, and I know there's been a lot of other moments like that, but can you just give us like the origin story, like what you walked into and how God pieced all that together? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

Um, gosh. So uh, you know, it's funny. If if I wrote a book, it would be entitled God and his bad ideas, right? Because every time God calls me into something, and it's not, I don't have a hotline to God, right? But there's been very specific times in my life where I it was very clear God wanted me to do a particular thing. And when he calls me into something, it almost always my first reaction is, Oh, that's a bad idea. I think this would be way better, this other path. And uh coming into YFC was one of those. The second time I was in YFC for a a season and then I left. Um, I came back in the early 90s, and then um through a series of events, our chapter really was going through some tough season, and our our executive leader left. And so I'd never joined up to be an executive leader. I was there to do ministry, uh, but I also saw the potential for what we could be and could do, and felt like, Lord, is this what you want me to do? You know, I'll put my hat in the ring and I'm praying that if this isn't what you want, that it goes south, right? So so well, they uh ultimately selected me. So I walk in the first day and I have really, I understand there's some issues, but I have no idea what's really going on, right? And so I show up and uh the first thing I want to do is just uh get a sense of our financials and whatnot. So I um I ask our our gal to come in and and share with me what's going on. She hands me a manila folder that's about that thick with a bunch of invoices and paper. And I said, What's this? She says, That's all the people we owe money to. And I'm like, Well, how much is it? She says, Well, it's about 50 grand. I'm like, Okay. And she says, I said, Well, how much money do we have in our checking account? Because I didn't have any of them, none of this was put in front of me.

SPEAKER_01 5:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Uh, and she's like, Oh, about seven thousand.

SPEAKER_05 5:28

Oh, that's that's healthy balance sheet, right there.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Uh we got we got payroll coming up, right? How much is payroll? About 10,000, right? And she's oh it, and we're losing about 5,000 a month.

SPEAKER_05 5:40

That's a great first uh Welcome to the job, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

Yeah. So I'm like, so what you know, what do you do? And um, so there was this journey where uh and and what made it worse too was that we had some fundraising events that were coming that fall that I had been in charge of, and I'd raised a bunch of underwriting. So it was a it was dinner theaters, right? So we brought this great Christian guy in that did uh a theater piece, and then we would do a little fundraiser and it was fun and it was free to people because we had it underwritten, and then we'd take an offering. Well, the underwriting had come in and been spent. The dinners hadn't happened yet. So the bills for all that was also right on the horizon the next 30 days. I'm looking at, you know, another 25 or 30 grand of so it was not a great place. We had zero assets. I mean, our furniture was World War II surplus desks. You know, by the time the late 90s, they weren't worth much. I'd have to pay to have somebody haul them away. I mean, that was that was just the what I what I walked into. So um, and what I watched both like what do you do with that? I don't know. I don't have a business degree, I don't have a business background, I don't even have a personal wallet big enough to cover this whole, right? And and we also didn't have a whole lot of donors at the time. We had a lot uh that let me say that definitely. We didn't have a lot of major donors. We had one guy that gave us $3,000 a year. Everything else was like a $35 a month pledge.

SPEAKER_05 7:01

Everything else was just piecemeal.

SPEAKER_00 7:03

Yeah. And so it wasn't even like there's three guys I could go to other than board members.

SPEAKER_05 7:08

And at this point, you're in the whole 43 grand, you got a $10,000 payroll coming, you're losing five grand a month, and you got a total of seven grand in the bank. Right. And you got more invoices on the way that you already know about.

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 7:19

You got to be just thinking, what do I do?

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah. Right. And so I went to my board chair, and again, that's a long story, but he was just kind of like, Yeah, you know, you're new to this, you don't really have much business background. I'm sure it's not as bad as you think it is. You're right. I don't have a business background, but I actually do think it's as bad as I think it is.

SPEAKER_05 7:37

Yeah, I know I know math.

SPEAKER_00 7:39

Yeah. Right. So uh so you know, the the journey ended up being a really interesting one. But uh, I think I shared this with you. But for the first six months I was the leader there, the money to make payroll would come in every time the day of payroll. On that day. The day before payroll, we would not have enough money to cover payroll. And we didn't have a payroll company, so we were writing the checks ourselves. So it could actually come in that day, we'd deposit it, we could write checks, it would work. So at the very last possible moment, the money for payroll would come in. And you know, again, $10,000 payroll. I think the most we ever had left over after payroll was $400. Uh, there was one, and I and so there's two other stories I would share. One was we had a um a time when one of my assistant came to me and she said, We didn't make payroll. Like, this was like four months in, it'd been happening twice a month. You know, I'm like, Really? She said, Yeah, we were $20 shy. And I looked at her and I was just like, I don't believe that.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:40

It's not like God missed it by 20, but he's been doing this. Go back and redo the math. So she went away, and five minutes later she walked back with this grin on her face. She says, Oh, I missed a $40 check. So I had $20 left over after payroll that time, right?

SPEAKER_05 8:53

Yeah, but just your faith to say that God's been doing this this whole time.

SPEAKER_00 8:56

I don't know if it was faith or just like this can't be true.

SPEAKER_05 8:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Right? Um, I don't know. I I I hesitate to hang some big label on my back, like I'm some man of faith. Matter of fact, and that leads to the second story. So the second story, after about six months, I ran a little mini campaign with my board because I wanted to raise some money to bring a development person on to just help us. I need help in the space, right? So her first couple weeks on the job, I took a vacation. This was in June. So I'm on vacation, I call the office just to check in, and she gets on the phone. She says, Scott, I said, Yeah, tomorrow's payroll. Yeah. We're $4,000 short. I'm like, okay. She says, What are we gonna do? I said, wait till tomorrow. I'll call you tomorrow. Oh, okay, but well, what but what are we gonna do? I said, we're gonna wait till tomorrow. She said, Well, what's plan B? I said, I don't have a plan B. We'll wait till tomorrow, right? Yeah. And of course, called back tomorrow. $4,000 came in the mail, $2,000 from someone that we didn't even know. Unsolicited, unknown, $2,000. She's over the moon. She's like, You're such a man of faith. You, you know, you don't even need a plan B. And I said, It's not that I didn't, I didn't have one.

SPEAKER_05 10:12

There is no plan B.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

It's exactly right. It's a capacity problem, not a great faith statement.

SPEAKER_05 10:18

But it's still pretty incredible. So it just leads me into this next question. Like, these are only God stories because obviously it wasn't your superior fundraising ability. Bingo, it wasn't your crazy network of really rich friends that had extra money to do just, oh, yeah, here's Scott, we'll cover that $43,000 gap. Do you ever wish? Because I've this is a weird question to ask, but do you ever wish God would provide a little bit more um advanced vision and runway? And but what do you think he's teaching you by staying right there in step with you, especially in those early years and those early moments? Like what was he teaching you in that?

SPEAKER_00 10:53

Well, in my humble opinion, there's two funding plans for ministry in the Bible. One is manna, and the other is Nehemiah's plan, which is get a blank check up front. Right? So God and I have had that conversation on multiple occasions. Lord, I want the Nehemiah plan. Yeah. And so far it's pretty much been manna. And that's not that's not totally true. There's been seasons when we've had more cash reserves and then seasons when we've had less. Um, I try to manage towards having about two months in the bank. You know, right now I have half of a month, right? It just and and what I what I think about that initially as a leader, I was pretty terrified by it. Um I felt responsible. Responsible to make payroll, responsible to pay my bills. Um and God and I talked about that too. I I don't feel like it's um represents you well if I'm 90 days or 120 days with vendors. That doesn't seem right, or not paying employees.

SPEAKER_03 11:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Um that doesn't seem even though at the end of the day, if we still make the payment, it still doesn't feel like we're honoring uh our word because nobody came to us and said, We'll sell this to you as long as you pay us sometime in the next six months, right? And they have bills to pay. So so that so the Lord and I have have had a lot of conversations about that through the years. But one of the things that I have I've come back to consistently, I think God uh I mean the obvious answer is He wants to teach dependents. If we always had money in the bank, there wouldn't be a sense of did God do that or was it our fundraising prowess?

SPEAKER_03 12:30

Right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:31

Um did God do that or was it we're just good good stewards? Um I think the answer God wants to teach and wanted to teach me, but then through the years, what I've seen is I uh He's grown that muscle with me. I don't I won't say that I still don't get bothered if we get real thin, but I I recognize a long history I've seen God provide. So I I don't tend to get freaked out as much as I did as a younger leader. But I think God leads us into seasons like that so that the new generation of leaders can go through that experience.

SPEAKER_03 13:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:04

I think God sometimes thins our money out so that our finance team can learn that yeah, you don't always have the money in in the bank, and yet God provides because this is his work, right?

SPEAKER_03 13:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:15

Um when I turn over staff in some key roles, it's funny how it's frequently followed by a dip in money. Really? Yeah, yeah. And so I've come to conclude it's it's God's way of teaching us that I'm here, I'm real, I will provide. I said I would, but um, that doesn't mean I have to provide before you need it.

SPEAKER_03 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

And you gotta keep taking the steps anyway. Yeah, it would be really good for you to learn that lesson that I'm there.

SPEAKER_05 13:44

Yeah. Well, shifting gears a little bit into like the ministry itself, like you guys, I mean, you're dealing with tough situations all the time. You're you're serving the youth of our city. Um some particularly through Gracehaven, you know, the youth who have been taken ridiculous advantage of in some of the worst situations you can imagine. Um, and then some just, you know, kids that are coming to Christ and and learning the truth and hope of the gospel and the love of Jesus, but they're not coming from these rosy scenarios. Most of them are coming from, you know, pretty tough situations. Right. How have you been able to handle that for you know the length of time that you have? How do you keep it focused on positivity and the opportunities to help the kids and don't let the negativity of just reality creep in?

SPEAKER_00 14:25

Yeah, that's a good question. Um you ever heard of the Stockdale principle?

SPEAKER_05 14:30

Yeah, you fall in love with your captor or whatever it is, is that right?

SPEAKER_00 14:33

I well, no.

SPEAKER_05 14:34

Oh no, that's Stockholm Syndrome.

SPEAKER_00 14:36

Yeah, Stockdale. Yeah. He's the guy that ran for uh as vice president. Yeah, he parachuted into Vietnam, right?

SPEAKER_05 14:41

Like wasn't he a he was uh Hanoi Hilton in Vietnam?

SPEAKER_00 14:44

Yeah, okay. He talked about um what are our expectations? If you have the expectation this is just gonna be hard and we may not get rescued, that's okay. The guys that adopted that attitude in captivity, most of them did well by comparison to those that were constantly clinging to hope that this is all gonna evaporate tomorrow, and then we're disappointed.

SPEAKER_03 15:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:08

So what's my expectation? And what does the Bible teach about expectations? Does the Bible say it's gonna just be rosy and ministry is gonna be amazing and everything's always gonna work out well? Um, or does the Bible paint the picture of, you know, you read Paul's resume in Second Corinthians, you know, uh in stone, left for dead, you know, the list, you're like, really? Like, who would keep doing that? Right?

SPEAKER_03 15:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

But then you read Hebrews 11, you read other places where God's faithful people are constantly challenged through their entire journey. You got Moses being following a pillar of fire. So imagine being Moses, right? Here you are. There's a day in Moses' life when he realized I got a million plus people with me, maybe millions. I don't remember the exact number. If we go one more day into the desert, we don't have enough food and water to get back to where there is food and water. We're all gonna die if God doesn't create water in a desert. And I have no eye I don't know where there's water out there, but we're just gonna follow that pillar of fire. There's this sense of God calls us to follow him through really challenging circumstances where it's the wind in the waves principle with Peter. There's this uh the reality is if you expect life to be easy, you will probably bail on that. So part of it for me has been uh uh assessing what is it that God's called us to. It's a spiritual war. Yeah, and there are lots of very tough things. So, first lower expectations to what it is that we've signed up for. We're gonna follow God and there's gonna be great moments in it, but there's also gonna be really hard stuff, and that's just part of it. It's not an indication. And I've heard people say this to me that didn't last long in our organization that viewed you know that if if it's not a rosy path described many different ways, then God must not be in it. And I'm actually of the belief it's the opposite. Yeah, it looks like it usually is. Yeah. So um so it's the it's the journey that God takes us through where it is hard and it is uh sticky and it's difficult and there aren't easy answers, and we're and and we have felt called, we do work with lots of kids in different circumstances. Some of them are just great kids in a good family that don't know Jesus. But we've had a bias historically of we want to be in tough places where there are kids that nobody else is going after for a lot of reasons. And so we intentionally, like I as a leader, steer towards those when an opportunity pops up, like, yeah, we want to be in that population. But um you start realizing, yeah, it's hard. But then you hear you see how God works in an amazing way, and it's like, but it's worth it. And it's when you get a taste of it's worth it and you have the expectation it's gonna be hard. Yeah, it's okay. And then there's another layer that comes where you actually I don't know if it's uh it's cat, it's almost feel like it's callous, but you it it some of the things it's just crazy. You start laughing about the craziness of situations you get into, you know? And it it can be funny. I mean, I I don't know how we have enough time to wander into this, but I got a great story that do it. Like I you know, no, the so we had a girl, and uh she was an urban kid, real, real rough kid, and her uh she lived with her grandfather. Her mom, mom was out of the picture, I think she was on drugs, dad was never around, she lived with grandpa, grandpa's a drug dealer, right? In her city. Grandpa's a drug dealer. Grandpa's a drug dealer, right? Okay. So she comes to Christ, and so our worker starts talking to her about praying and trusting God. And and they decided, and I don't know who came up with this idea, they were gonna pray that God would help her grandfather get into a legal job. So they start praying for this. One day, the worker picks her up and says, You won't believe what happened.

unknown 18:55

What?

SPEAKER_00 18:55

My grandpa got a job. Really? Where's he working? At a porn shop.

SPEAKER_05 19:01

Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 19:02

So now is that an answer to prayer?

SPEAKER_05 19:04

Uh yeah, that's a cre that's a really tricky one. I don't know. What do you think?

SPEAKER_00 19:10

Well, it's a great question.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

I through the years, I've I don't know what I think. I think the the where I processed it to ultimately was uh her grandfather wasn't a believer.

SPEAKER_03 19:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Um he you you know scriptures really clear, Romans 8 and other places, that we uh those without the Spirit can't please God. Um the I the idea that he's gonna somehow become righteous wasn't what they were praying. It was a legal job, and he did. So in some ways, yes, I think the Lord nudged him to get out of selling drugs, and he opted with his free will to follow a path that he was willing to follow. So in some ways, step in the right direction, it wouldn't be what I would celebrate. Right. So this is the kind of stuff though that you get into when you get into really thorny situations with people. What does what does growth progress? What is answered prayer? The the answers to that become very confusing at times. Yeah, and it's messy, but God's in it. And when you see then that young person begin to flourish, share the gospel with her friends, yeah, and you're like, this is worth it. But it's crazy, it can be confusing. So we get thrown into a lot of those situations, and that's I think for me how we sustain. We laugh about the the craziness of it. Like I'm I'm laughing about that story because it's just insane.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

No, it really is insane. It's like, what do you do with that? I don't know. I'll know someday. I'll ask I will ask the Lord about that when I see him.

SPEAKER_05 20:36

Well, there's probably dozens of these. Well, let me ask you that. So you've been you've been seeing, I mean, so you probably have more than dozen of these because you've been at it for so long. I mean, it's been what? It's literally almost 30 years, right, since you've been at the helm?

SPEAKER_00 20:47

Um since I've been at the helmet, it's been uh 1997. So I'll be the executive leader.

SPEAKER_05 20:53

That'll be 30 years next year.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

And uh I have another five or seven years of working in YFC when I wasn't the executive leader.

SPEAKER_05 21:00

Okay, so that's a long obedience. You know, they've the the quote, the long obedience, same direction. I got a two-part question for you is one, how did you sustain for this long? Because you don't see leaders hold the same position for 30 years in anything, really. I mean, it just doesn't happen a whole heck of a lot. And then leading this, you've already alluded to it a couple of times. There's not a lot of staff that can sustain because you're you're dealing with the tough stuff. So the path of least resistance, while even the strongest of people, sometimes when you've been, you know, going against the grain for so long and you've been working in the things that you guys work in, you fall into I gotta I gotta get out, I gotta do something a little simpler just for my insanity for a second.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:39

How how have you sustained it? And then what have you learned about leadership along the way?

SPEAKER_00 21:46

Oh, those are deep questions on the leadership one. Um how have I sustained it? Um I feel called by God to be here. I go back to what I said originally. Uh it wasn't my idea to come to YFC.

SPEAKER_03 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:01

I know that. I hold my career aspirations with an open hand, and in some ways it's holy ground for me. I've been offered positions a lot of that would be considered promotions or you know, moving to our national leadership or whatever. Uh the question is, is this what God wants? And I I generally have the view that, especially when you're called into a ministry, that if God, if you're really convinced God's called you to a place, then you should stay there until you it's really clear God's calling you to another place. Not that you got an offer that's less stressful, has better money, whatever, whatever, but is it the Lord? Because if the Lord called you here, until He releases you, why wouldn't you stay?

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:45

So to me, the burden of proof is why you wouldn't stay at the helm as opposed to moving on because of career advancement opportunity, which sounds really good, but in some ways that's not a calling. So that's a conviction I have.

SPEAKER_05 23:00

Let me ask you this, because it's okay, and I'm like sidetracking your uh your your answer here, but I've I've encountered a lot of folks who have said that they were called to one thing, and then very quickly they have peace about being called to something else. Usually it's either simpler, more lucrative, more convenient. Right. Like it it that's just the way it looks from the outside looking in. Yes, but they say they've prayed and they have peace about that. I have no reason to doubt them because I'm not them. I don't know what their relationship is with the Lord. Yep. Um, but you haven't seemed to have that feeling where God's not just gonna bounce you around like a ping pong. Like if he's calling you to something and it's super, super clear, usually there's some sort of like a deep-rootedness to it. Is that how do you see that?

SPEAKER_00 23:43

I I think that I think you gotta really own the question of are you called to something? I think that word gets used a lot by people that you get you you don't know how in-depth they really spent the time ensuring this is from the Lord. And I actually also think sometimes it's not always a I wasn't a hundred percent certain at the time. I was more than 50% certain it was what God wanted. Yeah, so I acted. In hindsight, not that long, six months, a year, year and a half in it. Looking back, I was 100% certain it was God's call. So um I so I I have room for God doing whatever he wants with other people, but to me, um, and to anybody that I would influence, I would really press them. Do you think God changed his mind that quick? And if if the people around you who are more mature in the Lord, would they agree? And if uh they don't, is it possible that your approach to how you discern God's call might be uh have room for some revision? Does that make sense? It does, yeah. I think it's important to take it seriously, I guess is what I'm saying. And you're right, too often when someone refers to their calling, it does seem to follow a path that if you stripped away that God language would look no different than someone that's just looking to move ahead.

SPEAKER_03 25:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

So um, but I take it, I take it a little a little deeper than that, and I feel like it is an important thing. And I've had staff that that uh made a commitment to be with us for I think of one example came, made a commitment to be with us for a couple years and then felt called away.

SPEAKER_03 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

And I said, Well, okay, but you made it to your commitment to me, and I'm not releasing you from it, because I'm not believing God's calling you away, and you can believe that, and then I can't make you stay. You can leave, but I'm not gonna I'm not gonna bless you to leave. Because I think you made a commitment here, and I'm not convinced that's God's call. I just think it's been really hard and you want to get out of it.

SPEAKER_05 25:42

I think that that's really wise is that if especially if you're gonna step into spaces where you know, like I'm about to go sign up for something that's not easy, that not a lot of people are gonna sign up for. But I've making my commitment, I feel called to it by God. And then when you know, adversity strikes, that's when it's like the rubber meets the road. Was it God's call? Yes, am I committed? Am I disciplined enough to stay for the duration that I signed up for? Yes. Yeah, that's the hard part. Right. That's just like the personal relationship with the Lord. But I don't think everybody has a leader that'll do what you just did for separate. That's almost like happy with me. Well, potentially. This is what I was about to say is that some people, when they hear you say that, they'd be like, Man, that's pretty, that's rough. Like that leader, I don't know if I would like that. Nobody's gonna like that. That's why iron sharpens iron. It doesn't say that like it's nice and easy all the time. They need a leader who is ready to call them out and help not only lead them in the position that they're in for who they serve, but lead them closer in their relationship with the Lord. And every now and then that's saying something that's kind of inconvenient.

unknown 26:45

Right.

SPEAKER_05 26:46

Yeah. So I mean, kudos to you for for being that kind of leader.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

I'm I'm just trying to form in others what I believe God's formed in me, yeah. And uh, we all should, I think, try to do that. So, um, so that and that, you know, segues into the second half of your question. You know, what do I think about how this influences leadership? I do think, I think a couple things. I think if you're going to do a God-inspired mission, you better be called. Because sooner or later, if God's calling you into a mission that He's leading, you will get to a point that the only reason to keep doing it is because you feel called.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:25

Or not feel, you believe that you're called. It's a conviction issue.

SPEAKER_03 27:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

Because if it's really in the front end of a hot battle, it's gonna be painful, it's gonna be hard, and it won't be relent, you know, it doesn't relent. And so every calling, uh, foreign, and I I say this to people that I have supported as foreign missionaries. I I'll probe into this a little bit because I'm like, you know, you get over there sooner or later, it's gonna get to a place, it's gonna be hard enough, you're not gonna want to keep doing it unless you have one, the only thing that's gonna keep you is uh do you feel called? So do you feel called? I'll press people on that that I support. Um, and I have interestingly had a uh one instance that comes to mind of someone who was like, no, I don't feel called, I just feel like there's lots of things I could do with my life, and this would have some great spiritual return, and so I'm I want to do that. And sadly that person didn't make it in that journey. Uh well, I mean they lived, but they they didn't stick with that that work. And I I think that's a piece of Christian leadership at least, that when we're called into a mission, um, we should really evaluate that heavily because I think that's the thing that keeps you in in the saddle. And maybe an ancillary piece to that. This is my experience. I don't think it's just mine. I think the number one thing we trade in as Christian leaders is trust. Are you trustworthy from the donor community? Are you trustworthy from the young leaders that are around you? No leader is perfect. I got my warts, people that have led with me could probably make a list of things they wished I would learn, right? I wish you wouldn't be that way or whatever. But one thing most, if not all of them would probably agree on is that to the best of my ability, if I feel like God's saying do something, I'm on it. And if if I'm wrong, I hope that I'm willing to hear it.

SPEAKER_03 29:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

And over time, as you lead that way, um what I've seen is I think God's able to grow ministries past um past what I would say that there's times where a ministry will blow up and it's really cool and sweet, and then five years later it's like, what happened to it? And and the reason is it wasn't sustainable, it hadn't grown to that sustainability place.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 29:39

But when leaders stick in places over time, God builds around them a team, he builds around a reinforced group, and that that mission uh is capable of being developed into something that sustains past the life cycle of that leader. Yeah. If that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_05 29:54

And it makes a lot of sense.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

I've also seen God pull uh other opportunities for missional growth uh that he may want to do that can be built on top of a long-term stable leader that I don't think he would ever entrust to someone that's short term.

SPEAKER_03 30:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:12

So leveraged opportunities for the kingdom that aren't always obvious or visible become doable with leaders who stick in the saddle for time. So that's the thing I would say to many leaders is not just a sense of calling. Don't leave until you're really clear God's called you away. But celebrate the idea that longevity in a calling from God is something that He can multiply the older you get in ways you never would have perceived. It's not just additional, it's exponential. And uh I think that if our if our Christian leadership looked at leadership that way, I actually think in the short run it would feel like there's a whole lot less movement and is anybody getting anywhere? But over time, the kingdom itself would grow in ways that we can't imagine.

SPEAKER_05 30:55

So I'm a big advocate of longevity and I think that you display the exact example because what of all the things that we listed in your bio, what was happening at YFC when you took the helm in '97? Like what were the ministries? Were there?

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Uh yeah, we had a couple ministry sites. Um, we had like uh four or five staff, a couple ministry sites. Uh our fruitfulness was we ran a basketball tournament that a bunch of other YFC chapters brought kids to. That basketball tournament numbers were used. It was 80 to 90 percent of our fruitfulness for the whole year for the whole administration.

SPEAKER_05 31:30

Okay, so it was and you had 7,000 in the bank, and you were talking about like we owe 50 grand. What's the impact now? I mean, I've been to these dinners. I mean, it's a multi-million dollar organization serving dozens of different ministries and taking on some of the toughest problems in the state. I mean, it God's blessed it. Yeah. But you don't do that without a longevity-minded gonna go through it and take up my cross daily, die to myself, and I'm just gonna keep putting one foot in front of the other. That's exactly what I would say. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

I mean, in some ways, I say this to people. I think the number one thing I've done as a leader is just not quit. Yeah. And I think people look at me like, well, you know, what does he mean by that? Because I think the Lord has brought people alongside me that wouldn't have probably pioneered to get us where we're at, yeah, but are able and willing to join us that are that are critical to some of the initiatives that we're doing. So they're able to join in. Their wiring is such that they're not the entrepreneur, but they are the person that takes a past where the entrepreneur can. Like I've got people working for me that were way better at pieces of this than I am. Um, I'm my wiring just isn't that way, but I'm the guy that gets in when it's ugly and messy and and I build it out and stick with it, you know.

SPEAKER_03 32:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

So yes, God's been able to grow and develop stuff that wouldn't have wouldn't have happened otherwise.

SPEAKER_05 32:48

What's been the most fun? So when you look back at your time at YFC so far, a couple moments where you were like laughing with God, you're like, man, this is we're actually doing it.

SPEAKER_00 32:58

Oh, it's it's a great question. I I tend to, I mean, I think it it's times when I see God show up in profound ways. That I that I know it's nothing but Him. So let me give you an example. Um so years ago, uh many people who know of us or have come and and interacted with us, some know we have a significant uh uh footprint in uh Franklin just west of Columbus called the City Life Center. So it's a it's a building, it used to be a school. Um in the journey coming up to that, we what what drove that was our goal was to try to how do we help urban kids? Yeah, it seemed like you could get them to say yes to Jesus and then they would just fall apart within a year or so and then it'd be gone and you'd never see them again. And you're like, this isn't working. We're not building lifelong followers of Jesus, we're getting converts that just go back to the world.

SPEAKER_03 33:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:52

How do we change that dynamic? So we did a lot of research. We came up with our holistic model as a solution to that. The City Life Center became a place to house that model. So it was it had to do with more interaction a week, different kinds of programs that began to address what I would call the off-ramps to their Christian faith that were more things like economic and educational and things that were barriers to them continuing to walk with the Lord. So we got into all of that, and uh, we were looking at this school, and it looked like a crazy project. I had people shaking their head at me like, nah, that's a really bad idea. And I'm looking at thinking, I think it might be a really bad idea, but I think it actually is probably the right thing. So I had no idea, right? I'm I mean, I I felt, and and we had done a whole lot of research on is this the right location? But at the at that time we had a $600,000 year budget. This was a two and a half, three million dollar project. Yeah, right. And go big or go home, baby. That's it. It felt like, yeah, it felt like the if the dog catches the car, what happens, right? That's how it felt, right? And I and I'm praying like, Lord, I don't want this if it's not from you. But we spent all this time and all this homework doing our homework and our research to say this is the path forward, and now we're here. So should we bite this off or not? And so I was going to a foundate, there's a foundation that gave us uh some seed money to do some of that research. So we did a feasibility study on the on the project, on the property, on all kinds of stuff, right? And I was going back to report on the feasibility study. And uh and I just prayed that morning. I was like, God, I don't want this if you don't want it, and I'm all in if it's of you. So here's what I'm gonna do. And I've I've done this a few times with God where I've just kind of fleeced him and I was like, You have to, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 35:37

You lay out the fleeces and see what he's gonna do. Make this thing wet, make the ground dry. Let's let's do it.

SPEAKER_00 35:42

I said the last thing I can afford is for them to give me 20 grand, pat me on the head, and say, Go get them, Scott. Right? Like all that does is commit me to doing the project with no nowhere close to enough money to think I can do it, right? So please speak through these guys. I'm gonna ask them for $500,000.

SPEAKER_03 35:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:59

I'd never asked anybody for five, I hadn't ever asked anybody for $50,000 up until then, right?

SPEAKER_03 36:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:04

This was an immense amount of money to me. Um, as I said, most of our donors at that point were just monthly givers.

SPEAKER_03 36:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

So, Lord, I'm gonna ask them for $500,000 and I'm gonna listen to their answer as an indication of what you think about this project. And if you don't want us to do this, have them laugh me out of the room. I'm okay with that. I can walk away feeling just fine being told flat out no, don't come back, erase our number out of your you know, Rolodex or whatever. So, so I go there, I make this pitch, I ask him for half a million bucks. They're like, interesting. Can you wait in the hallway? I'm like, okay. I mean, that doesn't happen very often. So I'm walking, I go out in the hallway, I'm sitting out in the hallway. They came out and was like, Well, it's lunch hour, why don't you sit down and and have lunch with us? I'm like, okay. I wonder how this is gonna go. And uh and some of them, uh, a couple of them were friends of mine, so I knew them and I thought they're you know, they're kind of buttering me up to let me down easy. At least we bought you lunch or something, right?

SPEAKER_03 37:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

And they looked at me and they said, You know, we really like your project, but we didn't really like your ask. I'm like, really? They say, Yeah, we don't think you ask us for enough. So we want to give you $1.2 million if that'd be okay with you. Wow. What did you do? I still get chills telling people.

SPEAKER_05 37:21

Well, your face just turned a little different color, like your blood pumping, like I could tell like so what wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:27

It wasn't about the money. No, it was about God's voice in that decision.

SPEAKER_05 37:31

Well, he made it real clear. Yes, right.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

So when you think what makes you laugh, what makes you it's those moments when God shows up in such an unmistakable way, yeah, that you're just like, I know I'm in the the groove that God wants me in, and I know he's with me. Clearly, and that's the stuff that drives me. Um, it's those moments. And I I don't have those moments daily or weekly, but I have those moments.

SPEAKER_05 37:58

Every now and then I feel like he does that where he's just like, all right, watch this.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 38:02

And yeah, it it's it's one of those things that just kind of smacks you differently. Yeah. Makes you feel differently.

SPEAKER_00 38:08

You start getting a sense, at least in this journey for me, you start getting the sense of uh of mo these moments where you know, based on something someone said or have done, how God's gonna react. Um, and then you see God act in ways that are profound, and you're like, He's real and he's right here with us in this moment in a really profound way. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 38:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:32

So that's what my head goes to um is things like that. And then you laugh about it later because it's like that's just insane. Like, who gives you $1.2 million when you ask for $500,000? Nobody. Do you know of anybody that that's ever happened to?

SPEAKER_05 38:46

No, uh you're the only one. More than double that you asked for. It doesn't make a lot of sense. So obviously that propelled the whole project forward. Oh, yeah. How fast after that did it open up?

SPEAKER_00 38:55

Uh, so funny, funny story. Again, got it work. So we were organizationally still young, and like I said, I didn't have this broad donor base. And and again, this goes back into some of our city reaching conversations. So uh Chip Wyant, a good friend of mine, and I were on the phone. I'm like, Chip, I said, uh, you've knocked around the city, I've knocked around this city. Um, I'm looking for people that could write checks that could help me to get to you know two, three million bucks. I need people to write $50,000 checks or better. I don't know anybody that is out there saying, I love ministry in our city, and if you're got a project, I'd at least be willing to hear about it. I I don't know who that is. Do you? He's like, no. So I went and I knocked on the door of Steve, a guy named Steve Rish. Steve was the uh head of the Nationwide Foundation, and Nationwide at the time was bigger in philanthropy in Columbus than the Columbus Foundation.

SPEAKER_03 39:51

Oh, wow. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 39:51

Columbus Monthly, if they did a thing on philanthropy, they'd go to Steve Rish first.

SPEAKER_03 39:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Now it's obviously the opposite. Columbus Foundation's the big, the big entity. But uh I and Steve was a follower of Jesus. He went to Upper Arlington Lutheran. Um, and so I'm like, Steve, I've laid all this out, and I'm like, who do you know in our city? Like, you're the guy in our city that everybody goes to on philanthropy. Who do you know that are the Christians in our city that care about evangelism in our city? He's like, I got nothing. Right? There was one guy that I knew. This didn't exist yet, yeah. There was one guy that I knew, and he just moved out of town.

SPEAKER_03 40:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:23

Right. So there was there was nobody, literally, there was nobody. And so I'm not saying there weren't people that were giving at that level, but they didn't self-identify. There was no network work.

SPEAKER_05 40:32

No way to know who they were. Right.

SPEAKER_00 40:33

They didn't know each other. There was none of that, right? And so we started off on this journey, and then we got this commitment from this foundation. And part of the commitment was to hire a development team to uh both do the project but to raise the rest of the money for the project. So that was baked into the project funding. So we hired this development team, and literally the first week they were on my staff, 9-11 hit.

SPEAKER_05 40:57

Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 40:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 40:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:59

And I'm watching the towers come down, wondering what does this mean for us?

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

Right. And what it meant was we went through two years, so oh one to oh uh three, we went through two years of knocking on doors, inviting people to come take a tour. Um because we had bought the building with some of that money. So we actually owned it because you didn't want to pitch a project, you didn't own the property, right? So we went ahead and bought the building. But we got the building under our control, and then we started and we did meetings three, four times a week. We did tours for three years, yeah, and got nothing. Nothing. Like nobody was given anything. There was one one uh bump in the road. Columbus Foundation committed to give us fifty or seventy-five grand if we could match it. We had the that commitment for an entire year, got nothing against it a year in. I met with them uh two weeks before it was over, they wanted to kind of an update, and I like I got nothing. And what I said to them was, you know what? This is these are kind of fun stories too. I follow a God I believe exists, whatever you guys think about that. So I believe God could bring that match in in the next two weeks, but I have no idea how it would. And so would you guys consider if I don't, would you consider extending it? That's what my ask. I I set up the meeting. But I don't want to rule out the possibility that God could still move. I just don't know. You know, people probably don't talk to Columbus Foundation leaders like that very often. Yeah. So I so I'm laying this rap out. But in my mind, I'm like, I after a year of knocking on doors, right? Two weeks later, I had the money in the bank.

SPEAKER_05 42:34

No way. Yeah. See, it's like it's it just happens over and over. I could probably keep you here for 10 hours in a row. And you can just keep rattling these off.

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Because God is real, and you that's so that's the stuff that makes me laugh.

SPEAKER_05 42:46

But your willingness to proclaim his reality to maybe even some people who don't believe it, um, it's a tuning to witness. You believe it, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:55

In in a way that's tangible. It's not like let me tell you the gospel. It's like let me tell you about the God that I serve. I think he's real, and if if he is, he could do this. Yeah, and then he does looking for it. So far, it hadn't happened, still got two weeks left.

SPEAKER_05 43:07

I love it, man. I absolutely love it.

SPEAKER_00 43:09

Right. So I got one I wandered through some rabbit trails, but if I were to bring that back together, God God worked through that process. Two years, nothing, except that that one time, yeah. I got I got whatever they gave me, it was 50 or 75, I got doubled. So, and again, and then nothing and nothing and nothing. And then we were at an event that we were doing, a fundraising event, and one of the donors at the time came up to me. He's a funny guy. I laugh at him, he's on my board now. I I told him this story recently, and he had forgotten it. And and but he came up to me and said, Well, Scott, why don't you just get like 10 guys give a hundred grand each?

SPEAKER_05 43:45

It's that easy.

SPEAKER_00 43:46

I'm like, Oh, why didn't I think about that? Right. So, you know, why don't you show me how you did that? Yeah, and he's like, Okay. So he wanders around in this event, and of course, there's a lot of people at this event, and many of them we had met with over the last three years, yeah. And within two

SPEAKER_05 44:00

Weeks we got 10 people each making a hundred thousand dollar commitment, and we said you need to be on our board. We need someone like you.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Man, like and he wasn't necessarily the great fundraiser, it was just God used him in really profound ways. That again, you look at his history four cents, it hasn't been like that's what he does.

SPEAKER_05 44:20

Every now and then I feel like that really works when someone who that's not their thing, like they're not a fundraiser, they're not that's not what they're known for, yeah, but they get passionate around a project or something specific, yeah. And they ask other people they know, and then yeah, lo and behold, here you go.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

So so what happened, and then the the end of the story, because I know we got to move on, but the end of that story is that we called them that our table of ten. Um, those 10 people I looked at and I'm like, okay, in the whole city, now I know 10 people.

SPEAKER_03 44:51

Yeah.

unknown 44:51

Right.

SPEAKER_00 44:52

But um, we could say, okay, you're our 10 guys.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:56

But wouldn't it be better if those 10 could get a vision for helping to build a community in our city of people that cared about giving?

SPEAKER_03 45:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:03

To the mission of God, right? And so through some encouragement, some of them weren't interested, but some of them jumped onto that, and that became the the core people that launched something that later became uh called the Columbus Stewardship Foundation, yeah, that then evolved through some uh generational stuff into NCF Ohio. And so it's those guys that took that vision and made it happen. And now I go to an NCF Ohio thing and the room's filled with hundreds of full of people, and it's and I don't even know most of them anymore. It's like it's so cool to me to see how God is funding missions in our city and beyond in profound ways that started with that, those 10 people.

SPEAKER_05 45:42

And it really didn't take that long. That's the other thing, like looking back, like you know years fly by, you know, because what year was this?

SPEAKER_00 45:48

So it's been uh oh end of oh two, like November of 02 is when he walked around that room, and oh three is when we and you're talking just a couple decades later, and really it didn't even take that long because it's that's been out and running for a while. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 46:00

Um, what God can do if just a few are willing to start, yeah, just take the first step with him and see what he wants to do.

SPEAKER_00 46:06

And you know, I had a little piece in that, but he and others, it it it's not me. I don't look at that like all I look at that like see how God works through his people that get excited about being part of what he's doing, and then get released into whatever that's gonna look like. And so, yeah, so that so that's the story of yeah, I pounded the pavement for two years, got nothing.

SPEAKER_05 46:28

Yeah, took some work.

SPEAKER_00 46:29

And then what I got out of it was the the ministry building that we were after, and the beginning of a whole movement of people who care about the mission of God in our city that today is profound. And 10 you know, 20 years ago, you you looked around and you're like, where do they exist?

unknown 46:45

Right?

SPEAKER_05 46:45

Man, so it's pretty much I love hearing these stories. All right, I'm switching gears on. Yes, sir. You ready? Yeah, all right. Um so recently, like you and I uh this we're gonna switch gears into Annette, your wife. Um, we got the pleasure of having dinner with you guys at the last YFC um gatherings that were taking place at the end of last year. Yep. And we got to sit across from her lovely woman, sweet, yeah, sweet lady. She's uh she's home with the Lord now. She is as of recently. Yeah. Um, so you're a bachelor again. Yep. I don't know how that's been. You're doing you doing your laundry. You staying up on the house.

SPEAKER_00 47:17

But uh point if I just buy new, right? I'm still watching it myself.

SPEAKER_05 47:22

Well, how long were you guys married?

SPEAKER_00 47:24

Well, it would have been 39 years in at the of a month after she passed.

SPEAKER_05 47:29

Almost 40 years. All right. So what's the secret? Because you guys clearly, when you guys were at the table, there was still a spark. You guys are still in love. I could tell that, you know, not even knowing you guys together that long, knowing you separate. But um, what's the secret to long and healthy marriage?

SPEAKER_00 47:44

Boy, I wish I had a silver bullet I couldn't cough up. You know, that that's the the hard thing is I think everybody's different in some ways, and then there's some things that might be common, and and then I'm not smart enough to say what's common for everybody, but I can maybe share things that strike me about us. That let me qualify it like the Yeah, hey, that works. I don't want to be arrogant enough to think I know something that profound because it's a really great question. But for us, I think what uh there was a couple things that stand out to me. I mean, everybody, when you when you get married, uh, this person that you have all these feelings about that like they're the greatest person ever, and you know, God's blessed you with this person, and then a couple years in you're like, this isn't the person I thought I married, and what's what's her problem? They got plenty wrong with them. You figured that out pretty quick. So again, what what I feel like is um the transition from feelings to convictions is critical.

SPEAKER_03 48:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:39

I'm committed to her no matter what. And that's what I said. Do I mean it? And so instead of leaving in the back of your mind the option, well, I'm committed to her unless it really gets worse, and then maybe I'm out of here, versus I'm committed to her no matter what. And I felt that from her in the same way, not only in in a at a convictional level in my own soul, but in a sense of even the language that you use. There was a couple times early on in our marriage where, you know, in frustration, in a conflict, uh, I would say, well, maybe I should just get divorced.

SPEAKER_03 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

And then one day I realized that's just not cool. To even suggest that puts it on the table as an option for me or for her, either one. And so we talked about that and agreed we would never say those kind of things again.

SPEAKER_03 49:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

Um, so it's like doubling down on God, God can make a good relationship happen with any two people that are willing to put him first in their life and be committed to each other.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Um matter how ugly it gets, I believe that's what I believe at least. And um, and so being committed and uh at a at a level of conviction to each other. I think the other thing that we shared, uh, and this was a blessing that we shared, it's sometimes you get into marriage and discovery you don't always share, but we shared a lot of similar convictions. So when it came to giving up our time or giving up our money or giving uh to God's work, we just didn't have conflicts or disagreements. It was more like, how do we make it happen?

SPEAKER_03 50:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:12

And so so there there was a commonality, and part of that is because we had a mission from God that we were both on uh task with, both with YFC, and then of course in our church. Uh, we were both involved heavily in our church. So the sense of conviction that we're on a mission together from God, God's knit us together to accomplish it, and that trumps all these other things. It's way more important than that. And those convictions, I think, made a lot of our life free of the kinds of conflicts that you can get embroiled in in a marriage. Like we never fought about money. Yeah, we never fought about sacrificing. Um, it was uh either one of us would come up with ideas and the other one would be on board. Um, like, oh, you you want to give? Sure, do it. And it was never like, well, do we have enough money and have we been given too much this year? It was just if God moved your heart to do that, then act on it and I'm with you. And so that helped a lot. Um it helped a lot getting old because humility comes with age. So it actually gets a little easier um as you stick in it longer. Forced humility with age, it's like well. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 51:26

I don't have I don't have the option to have pride about that area anymore. So I would forced humility for you.

SPEAKER_00 51:33

But even stupid things like as you get older, you begin to realize you don't remember everything. Because when you were younger, you thought about, well, you said that. I didn't say that, I said this. No, you did not. I remember perfectly what you said. No, you don't. I remember perfectly what what I said. You know, you get into those kind of, and then when you get a little older, you get a little humility gone, and you realize, okay, first of all, why are we even arguing about that? And second of all, um, I'm just not sure I can remember right anyways. You might actually be right there. That's true.

SPEAKER_05 51:58

You probably have a point.

SPEAKER_00 51:59

So uh so I I mean those are some experiences that we had, and that was um she's it's funny, she was the person that was uh gentle on the outside and sweet, and she is and was, but um, she was a woman of deep convictions, and in the quiet of our relationship, she was at least I I wouldn't say she's stronger personality than me, but she was at least as strong as I was.

SPEAKER_03 52:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

And it would have been very easy for us, I think, to have fallen into deep conflict that would if well without the Lord, it would have been you know deep, unresolvable conflict. But because of God in the center, maybe the last thing I'll add um at the risk of uh of saying something that someone might take as an offense, and I'm not intending it that way, but it's a conviction that I do have, so I'll share it. Um I think sometimes we can base our Christian life individually and together on things that uh that feelings bring about. So we'll listen to a song or we'll listen to this and it makes us feel a certain way. And when we feel that way, then working through and partnering with makes becomes easier, but then it kind of drains away after I forget the song because I just had somebody yell at me on the phone or whatever.

SPEAKER_03 53:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:14

I think God's word building your life on the habit of intake of God's word in a deep and steady way. Romans 12, too. It it transforms your mind, it builds convictions and it builds a worldview that increasingly aligns with how God views things.

SPEAKER_03 53:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

And I don't I don't dis am not dismissive of the value of Christian song lyrics and things like that to inspire us and to grow convictions because I think it can. And yet somehow it doesn't have the same transformative power as God's word.

SPEAKER_03 53:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:49

And so I think for us, the fact that we emphasize so much in our lives individually and then our our ministry together, how do we ground our lives regularly and frequently and deeply in God's word made a big difference in just the fact that our our ways of looking at life became more over time conformed to the fathers. And as that happened, it made it a lot easier for us to resonate because we came to similar conclusions about a lot of stuff.

SPEAKER_05 54:16

Man, the deep oh, it does. I mean, the deep conviction, the the fact that you're committed to each other. Um I mean, that's profound. It seems simple, but it's a it's a difficult mindset. And uh I feel like it's if that's true in your marriage, if both of you feel that way, then yeah, you can overcome a lot of obstacles because there will be obstacles, but the commitment level, that's yeah, I heard a leader but not easy.

SPEAKER_00 54:42

I heard a leader say once before that you know, leaders, leadership that's inspiring gets people moving. And then when the inspiring leader leaves, that they kind of run out of gas. Leaders that impart conviction leave and come back 20 years later, and the person still is living out what they became convicted of.

SPEAKER_05 55:01

Well, let me let me pivot into this question because this is a perfect segue to this. Uh what I wanted to know from you, because I know it's true, you continued to lead even while yourself are grieving the loss of a net. Leaders don't get the option to just turn off the switch while you're still at the helm. I mean, some do. I mean, you could walk away. It could be something so bad that you have to just walk away and remove yourself. But oftentimes you still have to lead while you yourself are going through personal adversity. What have you learned through this process?

SPEAKER_00 55:31

Might be a little too early to be too profound on that, but um, I'm I'm in the mix on that, obviously. My wife passed uh just about two months ago. So um it's still pretty fresh. Um and in my situation may or may not be different in in the sense that Annette had been real ill for a long time. Um what she died of isn't actually what she was ill from, but uh uh she had just a lot of health issues through the years. She had rheumatoid arthritis and a bunch of uh chronic things. And so um, in some ways, while I wasn't expecting her to pass, the journey of her struggle and her suffering was profound enough that when she did, there was also a sense of relief. And that that tempers my grief. I think other people who lose a healthy spouse that's in a great place and they're you know, they're chugging along and their spouse is taken away, that's a shock in ways that this just wasn't for me. So I I I would add that that that's an overtone to my journey personally that um that is part of my processing, is it wasn't it wasn't expected, but it was in many ways. I'm I'm sad, but I'm also grateful that she's not suffering anymore, that I'm not watching her suffer and feeling helpless, that I see where she's at, I have a conviction about where she's at that's that's profound, and a little bit of an experiential uptick that God's given me of just a sense of a visceral sense that she's she's living her best life right now. I don't know what it is she's doing, but she would never want to come back and I wouldn't want her, I wouldn't want to take her back from that.

SPEAKER_03 57:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:06

So I love where she's at. I love that I know she's living her best life. I'm missing her a little bit or a lot in the moment, but it's it's okay. Yeah, that's helped. And like I said, that experience might be a little different from others who um who it's a shock and and it's completely unexpected. So with that as a caveat, I also think um, in some ways, it comes back to the very same things we talked about earlier, which is what's my expectation out of this life? It's a fallen world. And I get hit with things that are discouraging and disappointing at work, at home, as a life. And this is what this is a big rock, no doubt. But in other ways, it's the same. It's just the next thing that in my journey that God's taking me through that um I all I can do is look at him and say, I got nothing here. I gotta trust you. Help me with this. And he has. There's a sense of peace that I have. You know, they talk about the peace that passes all understanding. I think that's the way it's said in scripture, yeah. Um in Philippians 4 there. Uh I like to say it's just that it's a peace that doesn't make any sense.

SPEAKER_03 58:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:15

I shouldn't feel a sense the sense of peace that I have in this circumstance. So it doesn't make any sense other than it's from the Lord, it's the Holy Spirit, it's people praying for me, it's a gift to me.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

So in that sense, that has brought that rock down from being overwhelming. Like I don't know how non-Christians walk through this journey, but it's made it just part of the landscape of challenges of following God and in the ebb and flow of life and learning to just keep looking at Him and saying, Help me make the next day happen and help me to honor you with it.

SPEAKER_03 58:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:47

And so that's that's what I've got so far. And I don't I'm sure that this leg of my journey isn't over by a stretch of any stretch of the imagination, and it could include lots of ebbs and flows that I'm unaware of right now. But so far, two months in, uh, that's that's kind of how I'm processing.

SPEAKER_05 59:05

Well, I appreciate your willingness to talk about it because um I've learned a lot just watching you from a distance in certain ways, and this is a new way, and I know that there's a lot of other leaders that have too. I've spoken to them about it. So it's um just the way that you carry yourself and conduct yourself and the way that you process you know through these types of things, it does it is inspiring. So and it's it's it's good God.

SPEAKER_00 59:28

I I sometimes I don't know how I can be inspiring. I'm just a knucklehead, is how I view myself.

SPEAKER_05 59:33

But it's the all-natural black hair, man. That's what it is. We all want it. You have it. We're trying to get you there. All right. Last question. So if you I feel like if there was the kids of YFC, if there were kids that were out there that knew that there was leaders at Youth for Christ that were like you who wanted what you want for them, if you were talking directly to the kids that are being served at YFC, what would your message be for the kids of our city?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:02

I think there's probably two or three things that come to mind. I think that um they need to know that they don't believe that. I I I look at it like Satan has a non-stop marketing campaign to persuade the lost world that God is mean. If he exists at all, let's start with that. If he exists at all, he's mean, he's got it in for you. He wants you into his control box so he can make you do things you wouldn't want to that won't actually be best for your life. Um, and that's that's what he's about. So if you want a miserable life apart from uh you know what might be good for you, then sign up. That's that's the that's the marketing campaign. And I think what goes with that is it's a fallen world. The guy that actually is doing that marketing campaign is the one that's actually in charge of the world, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:01

So he's persuading you it's somebody else's fault for why this world is so broken, when in fact he's number one reason it's so broken.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:10

He's persuaded the human race to follow him all the way back to Adam and Eve, and what he serves up that we ought to focus on is selfishness and greed and you know, power and all those things that don't produce anything good, and then encourages us to fight about it. And if he could persuade us to kill ourselves, he'd do that too, right? He's the thief that comes in to steal, kill, and destroy. That's who he is. And he's marketing this guy over here can't be trusted.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

So that's what those kids are being presented with. So to me, how do we unravel that to say this guy is actually more loving and good than you could ever understand in this life? And he knows your name and he loves you, and he wants what's best for you. And he's calling you to a life that will be transforming you to everything you actually want. In our hearts, what we yearn for is a life that will be what heaven is. That's what you want. You want what he wants for you. You don't realize it because what you want gets reshaped by the world system look differently, and then you pursue that and it's empty. And then you're miserable. And then it keeps going on. So so understand the world you're in and what it's trying to persuade of you. Understand who God is. Of course, uh, the third piece for me would have to be, and then how do you get to be part of it? Yeah, it's it's not of it's not you to be under God's thumb. It's like you're being invited at great expense to him to be part of a completely transformed life into a transformed eternity and to actually get freedom from all this that you look at and you rightly hate I hate the conflict of this world. I hate the you look out there and you see people's lives destroyed, and you see uh corruption and you see anger and hostility and relational bankruptcy. Everybody hates that. How do you get free of it? That's what I would say. It it's all about knowing who that is and knowing who this is and knowing what you're and maybe the there is one other thing. I'm a little it's a little uh personal agenda right now in my life, a little uh stump because I see this generation is also they they recognize the brokenness of the world, and so justice is the hot topic, right? Very much so we're gonna bring justice to the world, and yeah, it's like actually God's plan isn't to reform the world system. It's Satan's kingdom. Yeah, his plan is to create a kingdom that is so good by contrast, people in this kingdom are like, why are we still here? Why don't we move there? Right? And that's what he says in Colossians. He transfers us from the kingdom of or the domain of darkness into the kingdom of the sun, right? Yeah, but he wants to create a kingdom that by contrast draws people. Instead of the church isn't supposed to try to fix the world system to make it more tolerable, we still care about the people and we would evade the world system to try to love them and the brokenness they're experiencing.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:10

Yeah, we're supposed to storm in there, not the other way around. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:13

We don't want to make it so comfortable in there that it seems like this is a great place. We want to help them discover the contrast and draw them over here. So that that's part of that whole message. It would be like, how do we understand the dynamic of what's really happening here?

SPEAKER_03 1:04:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:29

You have the opportunity to escape this. Please, I beg of you consider it.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:35

That's really good. Yeah. What one wants your ultimate demise and destruction, and they're gonna deceive you any way possible to get you there. And the other one wants nothing but is what is good, what is loving, what is perfect, like what you were made for, the gifts and strengths to like fully be exposed, not just for yourself, but for the betterment of everybody around you for the glory of God. Yeah, unbelievable. That's really good. Well, this has been a lot of fun for me. Me too. Thanks for inviting me. Thank you for coming. And I mean, you've like I said, since we met, the first time we met, uh, you've been a leader that has been inspiring around town. A lot of people say that. I I said that in your bio. You could have done a lot of things in your career, you could have taken it a lot of different paths, but what you chose to do was something that was hard. You've stepped into you know places that are dark a lot of times, and you bring the light of Jesus in and through it, and you've been at it for 30 years. So thank you for just the obedience, the willingness, your leadership. Um, for all the kids around town and our city that you've influenced over those 30 years, just thank you for everything that you do.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:34

Thanks. It's kind of you to say that, but uh, I'm I'm grateful that God God gave me the opportunity, frankly, and called me into it. Yeah. Because he could have picked somebody else.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:45

Well, we'll put all the uh all the links to YFC and all the different various ways that they can volunteer and all the different organizations. We'll put all those links in the show notes. Yeah. Um, is there anything else that where they should go or anything coming up that people should know about?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

Um, well, of course, we have our our spring be the story. Um which is it is a fundraiser, but it's it's where we you know it's funny. What we showcase there is God at work.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:07

It's not YFC at work, it's God at work um in the lives of kids. We want people to come and see what God's doing. And then if they if they feel called by God and move to help us financially and join that team, great. And if not, at least they go always seeing God at work in our city, and that's profound.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:21

So do you guys have a date on that yet?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:23

I'm sure we do, but do I know what it is? I've got to look at my account. Well, I'll find it and I'll put it in April.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:28

I'll put that I'll put that RSV that link up there as well. Vicky, we'll strike this from the record if never if the question was never asked. No, well, thank you for being here. We'll put all the put all the links. And uh for for all uh past shows and for future shows, uh, you can get books, resources, and then uh more links to the podcast at markgreaves.com. We're over and out.