First & Focused

Why Your Money Isn’t the Problem—Your Heart Is with Courtney Markley

• Mark Greaves • Season 1 • Episode 14

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What if the way you think about money is shaping your relationship with God more than you realize?

In this episode of First and Focused, we sit down with Courtney Markley—speaker, author, and founder of the Center for Financial Discipleship—to unpack the deeper connection between faith and finances.

Courtney shares her unexpected journey from the fashion industry into financial counseling, and how God used that pivot to lead her into a calling centered on heart transformation—not just financial behavior.

We dive into the conversations most people avoid:

  • Why money and faith are so emotionally charged 
  • What “financial discipleship” actually means 
  • The tension pastors feel when talking about generosity 
  • The truth behind “storing treasure in heaven” 
  • And how Christians can rethink legacy, giving, and stewardship 

We also explore her newest project, Idle Treasure, where she brings together leading voices like Randy Alcorn, John Rinehart, and Leo Sabo to challenge the way we think about wealth and impact.

This conversation is honest, challenging, and deeply practical—if you’ve ever wrestled with money, purpose, or generosity, this episode is for you.

SPEAKER_01

Really like stepping back and saying, okay, what what's the point of church? What's the point of these different things? Truly, what are we investing in and what's the fruit that we want to see?

SPEAKER_04

Understanding the reason why you do what you do. It's it's good to understand that because it only makes your foundation stronger.

SPEAKER_01

I worked three jobs in high school so I could have more money to chop. Like that's that's what I was about.

SPEAKER_03

You're fueling your the addiction, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Truly. I would just spend a lot of money trying to fit into this world that I very clearly did not fit into. I was just fueling that need to feel loved and accepted.

SPEAKER_04

What you've honed in on is people's relationship with money and their attachment. It goes deeper than just forming a budget. There's a lot of, you know, things you can understand in your head, but where your heart is attached to those things. That's that's a totally different ballgame.

SPEAKER_01

I didn't necessarily realize how that desire and that drive was essentially competing for my faith.

SPEAKER_04

Welcome to First and Focused, the podcast where faith meets leadership. I know you're gonna put me on the spot. I don't know what you're gonna ask him to say. I'm Mark Greaves, and in each episode, I sit down with business and industry leaders who put God first in their work and stay focused on building his kingdom through their calling. I can sit here and talk with you all day. Keep up the great work, brother.

SPEAKER_03

I love you. I love watching what Jesus is doing in your life.

SPEAKER_04

All right, everybody, welcome to the First in Focus show, where as you know, we interview leaders from various industries who are putting God first, not only in their life, but also pursuing Him as part of their mission and their calling. And today we are here with my good friend, Miss Courtley Markley. How are you doing?

SPEAKER_01

I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'm pumped about this because um I've been on the other end of an interview from you several times, and your questions are always clear and thoughtful, and the way that you approach everything that you do. So hopefully I can bring the same uh to some of the things you're doing and highlight some of the stuff that's going on in your world.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, I appreciate it. Yeah, it's funny, kind of this role reversal. I'm used to being on that side. I know.

SPEAKER_04

It's easier asking the questions.

SPEAKER_00

It is easier.

SPEAKER_04

I don't have to really steer the thing very often. It's uh usually you'll take it and run with it. But um let me hit your intro real quick so everybody knows who you are. All right, Courtney Markley, you are a speaker, author, and leading voice in the growing movement of financial discipleship, helping people align their money with their faith. You're the founder of the Center for Financial Discipleship, where you and your team equip individuals, advisors, and church leaders to have deeper, Christ-centered conversations around money and stewardship. Before stepping into ministry, you built a career in the fashion industry. Funny story there. But your journey toward financial and spiritual transformation led you to become a certified Christian financial counselor, now helping others experience that same heart level change that you did. You host the Heart of Money podcast and the newly launched Idle Treasure, that's I D L E, Idle Treasure, where you explore the deeper questions behind generosity, wealth, discipleship, and discuss gray areas hidden within the donor advice fund space. Through that platform, you've engaged conversations with respected voices like Randy Alcorn, John Reinhart, Leo Sabo, and others, challenging the way Christians think about giving and legacy. You're a truth teller, you're passionate about helping people discover biblical stewardship. It isn't just about money, it's about the heart. Your wife to Adam, mother to Austin and Caroline, and a lover and follower of Jesus.

SPEAKER_01

I think that about covers it. Thank you. That's very kind.

SPEAKER_04

No, no, it's awesome. Yeah, and I mean some of the stuff that you've done uh is pretty crazy. And we're gonna get into the transition from fashion to finance. That's not normally a leap people make. I haven't seen a lot of bridges from fashion to finance being built, but um you've done it successfully. But before we get into that, um I've I've known you for a while, and I kind of want to just get into like some of the foundations of your faith. So, you know, growing up, you know, what was it that led you to Christ? Um, do you kind of have that moment or what what's foundations you know were built for you?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh, so growing up, I would say that my parents were both essentially first generation Christian. And so, uh, and I was a kid in the 90s, and so there was definitely um like a big push to have your family at church. And that was one of the things my parents did that was just such a huge blessing for me and my sister. So we were always at church. I say they literally raised us in the church. My mom worked for our church, I went to daycare at our church. Like we were always, always at church, it seemed like and we live there exactly. Um, it was a larger church. I grew up Pentecostal, and so we were, I mean, we're all about the Holy Spirit and hearing from God. And so I learned at just a really young age how to worship and how to just sit at Christ's feet. And we would, you know, if you've ever visited a Pentecostal church, I don't know if you have. I don't think I have. I've heard about them. That would be fun for you. Um like I just remember having worship services where we would just sit and pray for hours, and that was just normal. That was just a Tuesday. Um, and so that was just a part of my upbringing. I remember I was probably around six or seven when I was like playing a game of hide and seek around our house and like knelt to the ground and asked the Lord, you know, to come into my heart. And that was like so sweet. Um you were that young. Yeah, I was really young. I've um and like all of the spiritual like gifting tests and things, faith has always been really strong for me. Like I've never doubted that God exists, I never doubted his love for me. You know, I've just always had that connection. Um, and that's like truly just a gift. Um and so I've always had that from a young age, but obviously, like that doesn't mean things were always really clear and easy. And I I think we'll get into some of like the cultural influences that shape how we think and behave, um, with our money, but with so many other things. And so I I had that strong upbringing, then moved out when I was 18, got married at 19 to my husband Adam, and he grew up Lutheran. And so that was really fun to combine. Okay, he had a really solid Lutheran upbringing, and I had a really solid Pentecostal upbringing. So I'm like, how do we merge these things together?

SPEAKER_04

You probably thought like, uh this girl's weird.

SPEAKER_00

We both thought we were the other one was weird. Yeah. For different reasons.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but we also learned like, okay, what are some of the commonalities? And I mean, we always joke that God has a sense of humor because he and I could not be more different on a lot of different things, but um, like we see God's hand in that in so many different ways because we often, you know, balance each other out. Yeah. Um and and so yeah, so that was that was really fun. Uh, but yeah, being 19 and newly married and also like out of mom and dad's house for the first time, and that's really where I would say my faith started to become my own. And I've even just in the last few years um had to do some deconstructing of sorts. I know that's kind of a popular buzzword right now, but really like stepping back and saying, okay, what's the point of church? What's the point of these different things? And not in a like, it doesn't matter what's the point of this, but like truly what are we investing in and what's the fruit that we want to see? What's the community that we want to build around us or join in?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so it's it's um it started out like really sweet and special and like had that from foundation, but certainly that doesn't mean that it's come really easily or naturally throughout adulthood. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure we'll get into that one.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I think it's good though, because uh understanding the reason why you do what you do and like just re-examining some of the methods and the and the ways that you go and profess your faith in the world, and it's it's good to understand that because it only makes your foundation stronger when you kind of recertify why I believe what I believe, and then what do I want to go do with that? I think that that's good. I mean investigating that from time to time and just doing like a little check on yourself to make sure you're living your faith in the ways that you feel like you're called to from God. I think that's smart.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

It it's hard, it is definitely a growing season, but we're already seeing so much fruit come out of that time, and so it's been um it's been really good. The hand of God is so good, um, and he's with us even in those times of questioning.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. It is good. Well, give us the the background on how because I want to talk a little bit about obviously financial counseling and some of the things that you're doing, but you didn't start that way, right? And I think there's a really cool God story in that where he he kind of he has a funny way sometimes of getting us on the path that his will is for our life. Yours did not go the normal route. So can you just tell us like how did you go into fashion and then how did that leap into finance?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's funny. I feel like I did it backwards. Most people like start out with maybe the more boring career and then they change for the fun thing, and I kind of did the opposite. Not that you know finance is boring at all, uh but it's really exciting.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, we've had a few finance guys on the show, but they're uh it's it's not the most exciting world.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it can be, it can be. Um T's, of course. Um, yeah, so as mentioned, like I grew up going to church and having that really healthy foundation, but at the same time, I'm I'm experiencing the world around me that isn't necessarily Christ-centered and it will pull you towards different things. And so at a young age, I um as I was growing in my faith, I was also um growing in my understanding of just how culture works and how to kind of survive in this crazy world. And I started getting really involved in fashion. I loved clothes, I loved shopping. Mark, you would find me at the mall. Like, if we could go back to like 2005 and you're like, where's Courtney? She's at the mall.

SPEAKER_04

Okay, like that's where I that's definitely a very 2005 thing. It is malls today are not exactly as possible.

SPEAKER_01

That is not as fun, probably. Um But I I mean I lived there, I worked three jobs in high school, so I could have more money to shop. Like that's that's what I was about.

SPEAKER_03

You're fueling your the addiction, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Truly. Like, but uh two of those jobs in high school, I was a seamstress, and so I I learned how to sew at a young age because I was I was just really interested. Like I loved figuring out like how do you take this flat drawing image and actually create something really beautiful out of it that then like has a function and a use to it. I thought that was really cool. And I loved um especially like bridal gowns and those kind of things. So I worked in the bridal industry for many, many years. Uh, and I just thought that was so special. And I assumed I would be making bridal gowns forever. And um, what um the Lord just started doing a work on my heart. So when I was 18, I moved to Chicago to pursue that route. Um and that's where my own personal wrestling with body image and what does it look like to be a female and accepted and in the fashion industry and all these different things just kind of came to a head. And I was working with very, very wealthy clientele. And so I would um I would just spend a lot of money trying to fit into this world that I very clearly did not fit into. Um, my my employer even tried to give me voice lessons so I would sound different.

SPEAKER_00

So I was sort of like sound different, look different. By the way, the voice lessons did not work, like I still just sound the way that I sound.

SPEAKER_01

Um unbelievable, yeah. Yeah. Um, and but I mean we were working with celebrities and like all these different folks, like um, and so there was just a certain expectation put on you, you know. Yeah. So um, long story short, I was trying to, you know, I was a broke college kid, newly married in Chicago, um, just trying to make it. And I was just fueling that need to feel loved and accepted and valued by my peers and affirmed that yeah, I'm in the fashion industry. There's this certain um like street credibility that comes with that. And you're, you know, you're supposed to like look a certain way and do certain things.

SPEAKER_04

And you're in the big city and all your surroundings are validating all that.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, exactly. Um, and so by the time I graduated college, we had accumul I say we, it was mainly me, um, had accumulated about a hundred thousand dollars of debt, and some of that was student loans, but a lot of it was just in my closet. Yeah. Like um, I had really cute wardrobe, Mark, but yeah, I'm sure. Um, but yeah, a lot, a lot of debt. And um, and so that was that interesting place for me where like I grew up again, going to church. I knew the right things, right? I could look you in the eye and quote you, Psalm 24, one, that the earth is the Lord's and everything in it, the world and all who live in it. But I wasn't giving, I was very much putting my money towards like materialistic things. I wanted to look good and feel good and fit in. And I didn't necessarily realize how that desire and that drive was essentially competing for my faith. And I just remember on Sundays when the pastor would stand up and he would say, Church, it's time to worship the Lord with our tithes and offerings, like a priest. And I didn't tell you this, but my mom was also the bookkeeper for our church. And so she so you know, I just I feel like the DAC was stacked in my favor to like be this radically generous person who had a healthy relationship with money and was just like loving the Lord and generosity and doing all these things, but that was not at all my story. Yeah. Um, and so when the pastor would ask us to give money, I froze, and it wasn't because he was asking for money. I know some people can feel funny about that. Um, but I like firmly knew in my heart that he was asking me to surrender an idol, and I was just not ready. Yeah, and so it was easier for me to say, Well, I just don't have money to give, even though I think I'm willing to go in debt for material things, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_04

But I'm not willing to part ways with any of the material for the spiritual benefit. Yeah, it's exactly so um there's a lot of people that are like that that that probably resonate with that that feeling right now, but you've broken free from it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it yeah, and so it's it I mean, it's only by the grace of God. Um so to make a long story very short, um, once I graduated college, my husband and I, my husband Adam is a Buckeye, true and true. And so the the plan was always he would go to Go Adam. Yes. So he would move to Chicago for me while I was in school, and then we would come back to Ohio, which was actually um Columbus at the time. I don't know about right now, but at the time it was the third best city for fashion designers to live in and get work. So who knew? Um, again, the Lord had a plan in that. So we we moved to Ohio, and um, my husband he starts traveling for work, so he's gone Monday through Friday. So I'm home alone uh most most weeks, and I would fill that time with shopping. We lived right down the street from Easton, which is a kid like uh I could have navigated that place with a blindfold on yeah, all the high-end shops right next door. Yes. Um and I started just recognizing in myself just this sense of lostness. Like I was working as a fashion designer. I was very blessed to get the deck job that I wanted right out of school, which not many people can say. Um, and there was this sense of like, well, we're making even more money now, so all of our money problems should go away. And that's not what happened at all. I just kept shopping and and I started to notice just like this like just heavy depression that fell over me. And I started to um really start to butt heads with why I felt the need to shop so much and why I was doing the things that I was doing. And finally, it seemed, I mean, it seemed silly now, but it was like this big epiphany at the time where I was like, I think this all has to do with my relationship with money. And I just remember going to our stewardship pastor. We were very blessed to have a church that had a stewardship pastor, first of all.

SPEAKER_04

And yeah, many do not have that.

SPEAKER_01

No, and so I just remember essentially coding to him and being like, I am broke and I am broken. And I think it all has to do with my relationship with money. It's not about how much money we have, but it's about like what I'm doing with it and what it's doing to me. Um, and so that just started this domino effect where I started getting involved in the classes he was teaching, and then I started volunteering at those classes, then I started leading the classes, and he was the first one to unofficially train me as a financial coach. Uh, I started volunteering through our church and simultaneously I was still working as a fashion designer, and so there just seemed to be um just more of this pull going in this direction of every time I was talking with someone about God and money, I was like, I love this. This doesn't feel like work to me. You know, I was doing it volunteer, I was spending all my free time doing it. I've been where you're at.

SPEAKER_04

I've I'm freed from it. I want to help you get free.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's yeah, and so that feelings irreplaceable. It really is, it really is. And so that's where I started. And then um, right after I had my first son, um there was this moment where I was like, I can't keep, I can't keep doing what I've been doing. I really feel the Lord calling me to step out in faith, and I want to be faithful in that. I want to be a good example for my son and any future kids that we had. We had a caroline yet. Um I was like, I want to be a good example to my kids that they can say yes to whatever God asks them to step into. And so um I think Austin was maybe three three months old or so when we just took that leap and I started getting like officially trained to be a counselor.

SPEAKER_04

So well, okay, so that's a perfect segue into this because people are very familiar with financial advisors, financial planners, a lot of different titles, right? But financial counseling is not a title that most people are familiar with.

SPEAKER_00

Correct.

SPEAKER_04

But what you've honed in on is people's relationship with money and their attachment, it goes deeper than just forming a budget and understanding a PL or you know, there's a lot of you know things you can understand in your head, but where your heart is attached to those things, that's that's a totally different ball game. Can you just give us a glimpse of like what is financial counseling? How do you how do you practice it?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Well, I normally start off by first telling you what it's not. So for financial counseling, as you mentioned, it's not financial advising. So I don't sell any financial products, I'm not telling people how to invest their money, I don't manage money for anyone. I also don't teach financial literacy. So this is how money works. Um sometimes we help people with budgets, but that's not the primary reason why they're coming to us. Um, we help people understand why they behave with money the way that they do. And so since we started the Center for Financial Discipleship, I think most of the people who naturally gravitate towards us are Christ followers in some varying degree. And uh what we'll hear a lot is while I understand how money works, most of them are very successful financially. They know more about how money works than I do, probably. Um say, I know how money works, I know what scripture says. Why am I having a hard time putting it together? And so that's where we step in and help people understand uh why they behave with money the way that they do, kind of similar to my stories like I knew all the right answers, but I had this strong heavy pull over here, yeah, and that's what I was leaning into, and I wasn't fully understanding how my relationship with God really was influencing my relationship with money. So we step into those spaces with people.

SPEAKER_04

It's a it's a tough space. When you look back at your own situation, what was the attachment? Like when you diagnose yourself, yeah, was it a comparison? Like what what was the yeah?

SPEAKER_01

Um there's a couple of things, um, without going like too, too, too deep, although I'm an open book. Um there was a few things. One, I learned at an early age that if I dressed well, if I looked good, then people will like me and life would go well for me. Uh so there was this deeper sense of wanting acceptance, like wanting love and acceptance. Uh, and that's what that was the main driver. Uh, and then there was also another um layer. Again, you can kind of see how we go kind of layers deep in the counseling world. Um, there was another sense where that was kind of my disguise. Like, if I could put a certain image forward, then you would already have kind of an idea of who I was or what I was about, without me needing to be vulnerable or to really share like who I really am or what I really think about things or anything like that. So it was also kind of this way for me to feel safe. Um, and just put up a wall, a barrier between me and someone else. Cause I can give you this certain image, I can tell you I'm a fashion designer, and then we can have a very superficial conversation about those things without me ever feeling like I actually need to like expose myself or be vulnerable in any sort of way.

SPEAKER_04

Is that okay, what are some of the typical things you see? Because like obviously that's one. What are some of the other attachments or some of the maybe like the misalignment of you know heart and head and like how what what are you letting go of? What do you see normally?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I mean, there's so, so many. Um, but it when we work with someone and we start to kind of walk back, what are their what are the things that they're um the feeling and what's compelling them to act a certain way? Um, we see a lot of people grip to money uh as their source of safety and security. Uh, we see a lot of people, whether they can name it or not, looking at money as our source of validation in some sort of way. It may not be like physical appearance like mine was, yeah, but like for men, it could be a, well, I earn a certain amount, which means my value as a provider is up here, right? Like there's so many different things. Those are just like a handful. Those are just a handful. But when we start to trace it back, like I think of a client story I can share. Um, someone, when they came to me, they were approaching retirement age. Um, they already had close to a million dollar net worth. They were, they um tipped that scale as we were working together. So they had um very low debt, healthy savings, healthy investments. Lifestyle was kept very minimal. And yet um the husband especially just was gripped by money fear. And when we started to peel back the layers, because like your normal advisor might look at them and be like, Well, your numbers are great, like you have nothing to worry about, so just stop worrying.

SPEAKER_04

Um, the spreadsheet looks good.

SPEAKER_01

The spreadsheet looks good.

SPEAKER_04

That wasn't what it was, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

No, exactly. And when people experience anxiety, um, it's not rooted in logic and reason. And so it's rooted in deeper emotions. So just looking at a spreadsheet doesn't solve anything. And so when we started to peel back the layers, what we found was that this particular person um grew up with a father who was an alcoholic. And he learned at a very young age that there was just very few things in life that he could control. And as he got older and started earning money, he recognized, like, oh, I can control money. I can control this, I can count it, I can watch it grow, I can tell it where to go. For him, like money was a way that he could move out of the house, right? It gave him freedom, it gave him a place to run to. Yeah. Um, and so a lot of times we develop these unhealthy attachments to money, not because we're waking up one day saying, Well, I'm just tired of trusting in Jesus and I'd rather trust in money.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Like, I don't know, no one's ever said that to me like out loud, like blatantly. But it's more like we live in a broken world and we experience brokenness and bad things happen to us, and we learn unhealthy habits as a way to protect ourselves. And so with this particular client, he saw money as that source of control, and that was his like safety blanket, right? And then decades later, as he's starting to make that pivot from his earning years to his spending years, he started to feel that loss of control again, and it was just starting to spiral. So, what we find that's where the fear comes in, yeah.

SPEAKER_04

That's where the fear comes in.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and so like you could show him on paper he's gonna have ten million dollars, right? Like it didn't matter, it didn't matter.

SPEAKER_04

The number the number, the starting point didn't matter. The fact that it was drawing down and he was no longer in control totally of correct its accumulation. Yeah, it's you had to break that off.

SPEAKER_01

Correct. That's exactly it. So I've learned um I've learned to just really enjoy talking to people about their money for these reasons. Like I um I just always anticipate that there's some sort of healing. Sometimes it's not that traumatic, right? Sometimes it's very nuanced. Like I had a very like healthy upbringing, and yet like there were still these things that I grappled with, right? Um, so sometimes they're really traumatic and sometimes they're really nuanced, but it's amazing just as they snowball like how big of an impact they can make on us and how we show up in the world and how we um experience God and live out our faith. Yeah, so it's really fun to step into those conversations with people.

SPEAKER_04

How do you okay? Money and faith are two of the three things or four things that people typically don't talk about. I've always like don't talk about religion and politics, don't talk, don't talk about money, right? You pretty much just step right into the middle of the faith and money conversation. It's in it's filled with anxiety, it's filled with fear, there's a lot of stress, it's like a heavy space to be in. So, what do you do to like manage the weight yourself? Because you're you're in these conversations every single day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

So how do you how do you handle it?

SPEAKER_01

Uh a lot of prayer, a lot of prayer. Um there there have definitely been moments where most of my clients I meet through Zoom nowadays. So we we work with people all over the country, but there have definitely been days where I close my laptop after a session and just cry for a minute and just like, oh my goodness. Um, just like have to like give some things over to the Lord. Um, it is a really heavy space. But I also just see so much beauty in it and I see so much goodness. And I the reason why we started Center for Financial Discipleship is because I wholeheartedly believe that money conversations are the easiest way to start having gospel conversations with people. Um, even though many of the folks nowadays, when I first started, even up to the most recent years, it was about 50-50. Half my clients were Christian, half non-Christian. So it was great to be able to insert those gospel conversations. But even when people come to us and they say, Yeah, I believe in God, or yeah, I'm a Christian, there's still so much to unpack there. Like we never assume anything. And what we often find is like maybe they believed in God as a kid and they've slowly been drifting, or they haven't gotten plugged into a good church community, or they're um one one woman recently disclosed, like, I believe in God, but I don't feel any kind of connection to God at all. And so, like, I just get excited to get to step into those spaces with people, and so it can be really heavy and it can be um somewhat burdensome, but there's also just this I want to say like restfulness that I get or this peace of mind, knowing that it's truly like God working in their hearts and stepping into these conversations, and I get to um kind of facilitate, which is really just really a big blessing. Yeah. Um yeah, but it it's certainly um it's really heavy. And I um I've had people kind of curious about financial counseling. That's one of the things that we're doing at CFD is helping to train and equip other people who also want to step into this work because there needs to be so many more uh people doing this work. Um, but we we definitely have times where people are like, I think I want to do what you do, but I'm not sure if I do want to do that because it they are uncomfortable conversations much of the time.

SPEAKER_04

Well, speaking of uncomfortable conversations, I know that part of how you guys have structured CFD is also working with pastors and how to have some of these conversations with either their congregations from the pulpit or one-on-one with you know those who maybe want to invest in the church and you know, maybe are a legacy partner of a church, and there's there's things that they want to do with their money, but pastors a lot of times feel not very equipped to have money conversations. What would you say to like the business people sitting in the pews and then the pastors on what's the disconnect that you're finding? How are you coaching pastors to be able to basically talk people through this?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Um I think you um hit it on the head that most pastors don't feel equipped to step into money conversations. Um, because the majority of pastors I speak to have not been taught, like when they go to seminary, they haven't been taught how like a theology of money and possessions. They haven't been taught how to lead people in financial discipleship. And so money is kind of this taboo topic, even at church, it seems like, which is such a shame. And I don't I pray that it's not always like this, and that's why we're doing the work that we're doing. Yeah, um, because God has a lot to say about money, and it's not um it's it's not all like guilt and shame and condemnation, and this is what you should be doing, but it's like a really beautiful thing that he's inviting us into. Yeah. So that's the first thing is helping people understand that most pastors have and and ministry leaders too, have not been taught uh a proper way to engage people in money conversations. And so we're taking a little bit from scripture and we're taking a little bit from like outside perspective of like fundraising and things like this, and we're trying to put it all together for people. So, for the business leaders, the first thing I would encourage them to do is have a lot of grace with your pastor. Um, because more and more pastors are recognizing the need for financial discipleship, meaning, let's not just talk about a giving moment, but let's actually create disciples who look and act like Jesus with their money. And that's not just about a single giving moment, but this is how we live our entire life, right? It's a lifestyle. Uh, so a lot of pastors are starting to recognize that hey, this is a really important piece of the Christian walk. Um, but the discipleship aspect takes a really long time. I, you know, I can't disciple you over one lunch and then you're good to go, right? So a lot of pastors are trying to balance this. I want to create disciples, but I also run a ministry and the church has real financial needs today. Yeah. And so there's this kind of like push-pull, this uncomfortable tension that a lot of pastors and ministry leaders sit in, where we need money today. Uh, but I also want to invest in you long term because it's not just about this giving moment, it's about truly like how is God shaping and influencing every area of your life, including especially in the West, like how you use money. Um, and I say especially in the West because it seems to be the one thing that most of us don't want to surrender. And it's like a really big struggle. Um so that that would be the first thing that I would say for business leaders is have a lot of grace, but also don't shy away from uncomfortable conversations. Um there are there are ways to to talk about money well that lead to you know stronger relationships and flourishing of all kinds, and then there's ways that maybe don't. Yeah. And um I I would encourage people like if if that's happening where you're like, oh, this is actually making me feel a little icky or it's making me feel a little uncomfortable in certain ways, have have some grace and assume that that's not the intention. Assume that the intention is good.

SPEAKER_04

The sticker I have, I'm gonna botch it, but it's it's from one of your uh CFD events. But it was like, is my relationship with money bringing me closely closer to Jesus, right? Like that's the goal is our use of these tools and our use of these resources, all of it should be growing a relationship and bringing us closer to Jesus.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_04

So I think if you're just like someone listening to this and you're like, is my relationship with money good? It's like, or is the ways that you're using it, do you feel like you're growing closer to the Lord and closer to his heart and his will for your life through your use of the tools and resources that he's provided? Or is that a barrier to him? And like a gut check moment, like I think everybody kind of knows like what side of that am I on, and do I have some work to do? Like, I don't know, is that why you guys asked that question?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's exactly creates a lot of clarity. Yeah, exactly. Because I think um in the Christian context, we've kind of been taught well, if I'm giving a certain percentage, then I've checked that box and I'm good. Um, but that's not in scripture. So I think we have to look at it holistically. And so we use that question is your use of money drawing you closer to Jesus?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because it kind of reframes our mindset so that we're not asking, well, like what percentage am I giving, or how much am I giving, or how often am I giving?

SPEAKER_04

It's not a dollar amount, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's not a dollar amount, and it's not only about giving, right? Like there's so many other ways to use money for for God's glory, but it's is my use of money drawing me closer to Jesus, yes or no? Um, so yeah, so we use that to kind of reframe the conversation that it's not solely about fueling this certain cause or whatever it might be, but the whole point is drawing our heads. For you to get closer to God. Correct.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I I love that. All right, so let's pivot to idle treasure because I I've been dying to get to this topic. Um, I love the series, so I would love for you to describe what it is. And I said in the intro, it's I-D-L-E. A lot of people think it's I D O L.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Like money is an idol. No, no, no, it's idle, like it's sitting on the sidelines.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

There is treasure that has been designated for the kingdom that is on the sidelines right now, to the tune of $325 billion with a B sitting in donor advice funds. In America, right? Or is that worldwide?

SPEAKER_01

That's in America.

SPEAKER_04

That's just in our country. Yeah. $325 billion that's already been set aside for charitable works that just hasn't been deployed for charitable works. So I would I would love for you to tell us what donor advice funds are and what you did through Idle Treasure, because the guest list on Idle Treasure, some of my favorite guys that I've never met before who have mentored me and kind of established my viewpoint on money and how I think about things. Like one's Randy Alcorn, the the first book I ever read on generosity of any kind was The Treasure Principle. It changed the way that I look at things. So um, can you first tell us like what is a donor advice fund? What's this $325 billion number? And then take us through why you made idle treasure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Um, I'll start with the setup a little bit. If you go, yeah, go ahead. Just unleash. I'll start with the setup. Yeah. Um, because I'm in the counseling space, I'm kind of that neutral party, right? I don't sell any products, I don't invest money for anyone. So I get a lot of people's money questions, including financial advisors, people in the generazity space will come to me and I get to hold a lot of questions for people.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And uh a little over a year ago now, I was at a conference with a lot, I don't know, like 2,500 Christian financial advisors. And I was sitting with my friend, actually listening to Randy Alcorn, who is Randy, who was talking. Randy, if you're listening, we love you. We do. Mark's a big fan too. Um and he started doing an audience QA. And my friend leaned over to me and she was like, Well, what I want to know is why isn't anyone talking about the money sitting in donor advice funds? And because I'm, you know, I'm not the practical, like, you don't want to come to me for all of the financial tools. Uh, I'm the like touchy-feely, let's talk about your heart and emotions and all that. I was, I half knew what she was talking about, and I half did it. And I was like, wait a minute, what's a donor advice fund again? Okay. And so I had to start with first of all, like doing my homework. Like, what is she talking about? That's really intriguing. And so I was asking her some questions and she was educating me. And then it was one of those, you know, have you ever had a conversation with something? You learn something new, and then you hear it everywhere. Yeah. That's exactly what was happening to the point where I was like, all right, God, like, is there something here? Is there a story here that you want me to lean into? Um, again, because I get to be that neutral party, I don't gain anything from people using donor advice ones or not using them or whatever it is. So um I take that as like a unique position that I get to sit in. Yeah. And so, long story short, I interviewed a ton of people, not even thinking about a podcast or anything. Um, but I just interviewed a ton of friends and was trying to figure out is this a problem? Is there an opportunity to encourage generosity? Like what's really going on here? Because you know, people can look at big numbers and they can cause a fuss about things. Sometimes that there's no reason to fuss over. Um, so I was also just like, is there is there a problem here? Is there not?

SPEAKER_04

Because 325 billion is a big number.

SPEAKER_01

It's a big number.

SPEAKER_04

It's 325,000 million.

SPEAKER_01

That's right. Um, so when I got to the heart of it, almost everyone that I talked to said, yes, this is a problem. We want to be talking about it. Um, and they wanted to like lean into that conversation. And so that's kind of how the podcast portion started. So, what a donor advice fund is for people who are listening who are like me a year ago and they're like, I have no idea what that is.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, the basic definition is it's a charitable savings account. Anyone can open one, you don't have to have millions and millions of dollars. Um, so they're seen kind of along the same lines as a private foundation, except that anyone, it's like very simple to open. Anyone can do it. Again, you don't have to have a lot of money to use one. And there are like DAF sponsors, like National Christian Foundation is a really popular DAF sponsor where you can go to them and they'll help you open and manage your donor advice fund. So as soon as you put money into it, again, it's that charitable uh bank account. So as soon as you put money into a DAF, DAF, um, you receive a tax benefit because you have technically designated that money for charity. So you can never get that money back for yourself, right? So you can't put money into your DAF and it's invested, it's growing, and you're like, oh, just kidding. I want to take my family on vacation. No, you can't use it ever gonna be.

SPEAKER_04

It's like you gave it to charity, it just hasn't been deployed to a specific one yet. Correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so um people use DAFs for a wide variety of reasons. One, let's say, let's say you got a big bonus at work and you're like, oh man, I would love, I would love to give this to charity. I'm not sure who I want to give it to yet, but I want to like set this aside. Well, you could put that money in a DAF. Um, you would receive the tax break right away. So you wouldn't have to wait for that. And it ensures that that money will go to charity. It can't go anywhere else. Uh, so you could set that money aside until you um figure out exactly who you want that money, where you want that money to go. Um, there are other folks who um are used to writing big checks, bigger numbers, and they want to remain anonymous. Well, your DAF sponsor can write those checks for you so that people don't know where the money actually came from. So that is one thing that's really attractive to a lot of DAF users is they can deploy money without anyone knowing where it came from.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And then the other biggest reason that I found people use them is if you're used to uh giving money to a lot of different charities, uh, and at the end of the year tax season, you're getting all of these receipts and things. Um, sometimes that can be overwhelming for people. A DAF keeps it really simple, you get one receipt. Um, so if you are someone who gives to 25, 30 charities throughout the year, a DAF could be helpful for you. Um, so there's good things to them for sure. But what we're seeing happening is people are financially incentivized to put money into the DAF, right? As soon as I put money into that account, I get a tax break. That's great for me. Um and then we're also seeing this kind of sticky territory where your financial advisor or your DAF sponsor, whoever's managing that money for you, well, that's invested money. So it can continue to grow until you deploy it to charity. They're financially incentivized to keep the money there, essentially. They earn income off of the money that they're investing for you through your DAF. Um, so I as a user am incentivized to put the money in. They technically, unless they're very like kingdom-oriented and kingdom-minded, they're incentivized to keep the money.

SPEAKER_04

Just based on the numbers, correct. They're they're incentivized to have assets under management. A donor advised fund is no different.

SPEAKER_01

Correct. And so no one's technically financially incentivized to actually deploy the money, move the money from your DAF account, your bank account, to an actual charity.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so what we see when we hear that $325 billion and it's growing. Um, if I'm remembering correctly, the numbers the last few years have grown by about 20, 25% each year.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I thought it was like uh, you know, something like it was like a 30% increase from 24 to 25.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's it's a lot. Yeah, it's a lot. And remember that money's invested, so it continues compounding, right? Um, and more people keep putting money in. And so there's just a lot of things that go into it. Um, but yeah, so we're seeing this this amount of money that's sitting there on the sideline. So it's idle, and it's technically been designated for charity. It can't be used for any other reason, but it's sitting there, just not deployed, just not being used. So it's like, yeah, it's like I I promised to write you a check, and I put the money in my savings account to write you a check. But I never actually gave you the check.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So it's just sitting there. Um, and that it's interesting. You know, a lot of people I talk to that I've interviewed for this project are really frustrated by that and they feel this sense of urgency. Like time is short. I recognize this in you too, Mark. You were also interviewed for idle treasure, I should say, which was for the We're running out of time.

SPEAKER_04

Every day we're running out of time. How long do we want our tools and our resources, our talent and our treasure to sit on the sidelines versus making an impact for eternity for the kingdom of God?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. It's a it's a it's a really interesting question. And I think you've had some awesome guests who have been urging people with some of those answers and solutions for years on the show.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I'm not going to speak for you. Transition to the show. You tell your own story.

SPEAKER_01

Sure, sure, sure. I'm just so excited about it because it's so good. Excited about it. Um so the so I took a lot of time again, just interviewing a ton of people, um, knowing that I feel like I sit kind of in the same seat as the listener, um, who I'm like, maybe I don't know a ton about this problem and I'm trying to learn. Uh, so I took that posture of I'm really just here to learn. I don't know if I have an opinion yet. Like, I want to just like hear all of the things. Like, so if you think that, you know, it's okay for money to be sitting in DAFs, great. Tell me why. Like, what are you seeing happening? If you're like absolutely enraged by the money sitting in DAFs, great. Tell me why. Like, what are you seeing happening? And so I tried to, as best I could kind of sit in this middle space and hear from all the different angles. And so I interviewed um a ton of financial advisors, DAF sponsors. So folks from National Christian Foundation came in, uh, which was really kind. Ron Blue, who helped establish like the modern donor advice fund and like the Christian financial industry, which is like so fun.

SPEAKER_04

I'm sure his vision in the beginning wasn't that this would all just accumulate and sit in these accounts, right?

SPEAKER_01

Right, right. And so it's been really cool. And then a ton of authors in the generosity space, like Randy Alcorn, um, like John Reinhart, and then also some biblical scholars, uh, like Dr. Gary Hooke, Dr. Craig Blomberg. Uh so we're trying to get it from all these different angles to see, like, okay, and then also like we got to inherit uh interview a young inheritor who is managing a DAF as her uh vocation, uh just like getting to hear all the things. That was a really cool story.

SPEAKER_04

Like her vocation is giving this away well.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. So there's there's some good things about DAFs for sure.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. So we're trying to just like examine all these things. So um, if you're to listen to Idle Treasure, what you'll hear is that this isn't just a story about donor advice funds, but this is really about all of us. Like, because even if, let's say you and I don't have a large amount of money sitting in a donor advice fund, well, we probably have some money in our personal savings bank account, investment accounts that could be deployed to Kingdom Causes that we're hanging on to.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so, and again, that's not meant to be a point of judgment, but just simple observation. Like we're all doing this in some bearing capacity for the most part. Yeah. Um, just the interesting thing with DAFs is like, well, you've technically already given it away. So what it's just way more obvious. Yeah, it's just way more obvious. So much more obvious. I think we would all be just like scandalized if we collectively counted how much money is in our own accounts that aren't being used. Yeah, this isn't finger pointing at all. Right.

SPEAKER_04

But this is just calling out a situation where uh that money has already been designated for charity. We can't say it over and over again.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Knowing the level of need and the gaps that need to be filled and the opportunities that are out there to go fuel the work of Christ in our communities, that's what it is. It's like that's it's the lowest hanging fruit.

SPEAKER_01

It is. It's the easiest thing to point at. And so what we do with Idle Treasure is we kind of use the DAF story uh kind of as guardrails to bump up against, but at the same time, we zoom out and we look at the Christian walk in general, like what's happening in our cultural moment uh and how people are relating to God and money that's making this happen because it's not a one-off. Like we could also, and we mentioned this in the podcast, like we could look at private foundations that has close to two trillion with a T dollars sitting in it. Same story, like money.

SPEAKER_04

You can solve almost all the problems with that amount of money.

SPEAKER_01

It's insane. Like it's again, like our minds can't comprehend how much money that is.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, though you can't you can't solve all the heart level problems, and because it's the the Holy Spirit has to do that, but you can meet a lot of the tangible needs with that money. Like, I don't I'm not sure that there's one that couldn't be met with that amount.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and so yeah, so it's easy to point out those things uh and just start again get curious about them, not judgmental, but let's be curious about it. But then let's also like have a heart check for ourselves to say, like, what about this story is true of me and what might God be trying to reveal in my heart about how I see him, how I relate to him, and how I'm how I'm using my mind.

SPEAKER_04

What have I been holding back? What have I felt compelled by the spirit to do that I've been unwilling to do? Where I know that my obedience would impact eternity there, but my temporary holdback, whatever that is, is still in my way. Yeah, there's yeah, there's a lot to be looked at from that angle.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, so it's I wanted this to feel like uh a project with friends, you know, and I I'm very blessed to call a lot of these folks friends who have um uh participated and been interviewed for it. And it's been really it's been really special just to see it unfold and how people start to react to these.

SPEAKER_04

Well, I would encourage anybody to go check it out because it's not this isn't just like a typical podcast where you're sitting down just interviewing somebody kind of like we're doing now. This is a story and there's an arc to it where the way that you lay it out, there's a pretty deep level of understanding that I think is obtained if you if you listen to the whole story. I've listened to everyone so far. Um, but also each one's convicting in their own way, where they do that to you. They make you look at your own life and they make you re-examine some of the ways that you have a relationship with God and money. Um, it's been really good for me. I'd encourage anybody to to check it out. All right, so let me transition to this. This is a question I have to ask you because um store your treasure in heaven is a quote that we hear a lot. Like in Jesus says, like, where your treasure is, your heart will be also like store it, store it in heaven, where it's not gonna be destroyed, where it'll it'll last.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

This can be confusing to some people, and to uh especially if you haven't spent a lot of time examining this space. So there's not gonna be dollars used in heaven. Like when when Jesus tells us to store our treasure in heaven, when you're coaching your clients, how do you make that make sense to them?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's a great question. That's a really great question because you're right. Um, a lot of folks, again, we haven't been taught the theology of money and possessions unless you really actively are seeking that out, right? Uh, and so that can sound really confusing for people. And even the idea of um like having rewards in heaven can um make people feel a certain way or feel a little uncomfortable or uneasy. So that idea of what do you mean like storing up treasure in heaven? Like I love to unpack that with people. Um so it comes very famously from Matthew 6 19. It's directly out of Jesus' mouth, right? Do not store up for yourself treasures on earth, but lay up for yourself treasure in heaven. And then he goes on to say, you cannot serve two masters. You either love one and hate the other, uh, serve one, despise the other. Uh, you cannot serve God and money or God and mammon.

SPEAKER_04

And pretty specific. Very clear.

SPEAKER_01

I'm so um, you know, one of the folks I interviewed for idle treasure, they were like, Jesus was kind of vague about a lot of things, right? Like kind of cloaking things in parables and different things. He's like, he was really clear when he spoke about money. Like he didn't like he didn't want to leave anything up for interpretation. That's true. Like, here it is, folks. Um, and so yeah, it doesn't necessarily mean that there's gonna be literal like dollars and cents up in heaven. Um, he does say like create for yourself treasure in heaven. And even I'm thinking about um when Jesus was talking to the rich young ruler, he says something almost identical, right? Go sell all your possessions, give to the needy, and store up for yourself treasure in heaven. And so um there's all kinds of scriptures you can we can point to some good books that people really want to get into like the knee deep, like what does this mean? But um, Jesus is very clear that how we use our money can have eternal implications. And so I think about a story that I heard several years ago about um about a gentleman who was leading a financial class for his church, and a woman came into his class and she was an atheist. So she didn't really want to be at this church, but she was in a place where she was financially desperate enough where she was just looking anywhere for help and she came. And um I can't remember if it was her first time there, you know, a few times uh going to this class. They're in a group setting, they're talking about just specific challenges that people are currently facing, and this woman starts to break down and cry. Um, single mom, and her car keeps breaking down, and she can't afford the payments anymore, and it's like she doesn't know what she's gonna do. And the the man leading the group looks at her and he just has love for her, right? Like Christ loves this woman. And he hands her the keys to his car and he says, Here, this is yours now, take it, right? It's like it's paid off, it's yours if you don't owe anything. This is just for you, this is a gift. Um, she gave her life to Christ.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And I'm like, it's like the trade-off of that, right? Like I give you a car and you give your life to Christ. Yeah, that's incredible. That's incredible.

SPEAKER_04

It's a good example of what shows up in eternity and what doesn't.

SPEAKER_01

Right.

SPEAKER_04

The car's staying here, but right now that person's soul will live forever.

SPEAKER_01

That's exactly right. And so we can use money in a way that influences eternity and crisis will be rewarded for those things. And I don't think it's wrong to necessarily like I don't think it's wrong to get excited about that. You know, there there's all that I mean, it's all throughout scripture that God is a good father, he loves to give good gifts. And I think when I talk to someone who's excited about their eternal rewards, what I often find it's not someone who's doing good things purely for their own benefit and like ha ha ha, I'm gonna get all these rewards. I'm gonna get all this treasure later.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it's someone who is just like so looking forward to like being on that side of eternity, being with God, they need to experience like his tangible presence, and they're like, and like all of these good things are gonna come to us. Like, this is a good time where we get to step into God's promises, and I'm excited about that. Yeah, so that's typically when I when I meet someone who's like really pumped up about eternal rewards, like that's where their heart's at. And and so I think it just helps to reorient like what are we aiming for? Because you and I work for rewards all day long. Yeah, like most of us go to our work because we anticipate some kind of financial reward, right? So essentially what God is saying is anticipate the kingdom rewards that I have to offer you, right? Live into eternity and don't live as if this life, this present moment, is all that you have because it's not, there's something so much greater going on.

SPEAKER_04

The people that I have witnessed and I've I've just experienced it in my own life. When you freely give here, it's just an irreplaceable feeling. And I always feel so much closer to God in those moments. Like I'm already experiencing the spiritual, the heavenly treasure because of just the communion that you have with your creator. When you freely give of the gifts that he's given you, he's the giver. We're not, you know, we're just we're a conduit of his love. So when we allow ourselves to be that, that's where I feel that's where I think that feeling comes from. Like whenever I've had the biggest highs, it's when I've been freely giving of what I've been given, not when I've been getting stuff or accumulating or thinking of myself. Right. That actually doesn't feel that good, to be honest. I mean, the other way around, though, I feel like it's um you get a glimpse of it here too. Yeah, I can't imagine what it'll feel like when we get to heaven, but um, when we participate with him in that way, it just it feels so good even here on in the temporary earth. So pretty cool. Absolutely. All right, so I gotta get some some good stuff from you. You have a really holistic view of generosity, the church, like what's going on? Like what are some things that are giving you optimism that you're positive about?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um, I mean, we were mentioning earlier there's a lot of things that we could point at that aren't maybe going so great. Um, but there are things that are going well. And some of the things that I see happening in my space is more and more pastors are starting to recognize the need to talk about money and recognize the need for more of a holistic approach. So it's not just about helping someone get out of debt. It's not just about encouraging someone to give to your capital campaign or whatever it might be, right? But it's it's about their wholeness as a disciple of Christ and how are we using money in a way that draws us closer to Jesus. So we're seeing more pastors really coming to this reality of um potentially even um potentially even saying, Yeah, I've been shying away from this topic for a really long time, and I recognize that that's not good for anybody and it's not good for the church, it's also not good for the people going to the church. So we're seeing more um curiosity starting to come up. We're seeing people look at it more holistically, which gives me a lot of hope. And then we also have uh just amazing, amazing ministries uh who are there to support the church. So CFD is one of many really great ones. Like we have the gospel patrons movement happening, which is really exciting to see, and they're being just embraced by the church. We're seeing things like generous giving now has um uh a whole curriculum for pastors and churches, and that is really exciting to see. Um and all kinds like RBI, Ron Blue Institute, they are creating all of these really fun things and piloting a lot with churches, and it seems like a lot of us in the ministry space like care so deeply about the church, the big C church, and seeing it flourish and seeing it really um just uh return back to what we all like dreamed that it could be and would be. Yeah and uh money conversations must be a part of that, and so there's a lot of us coming together, even in collaboration, to say how can we all do this together? How can we uh encourage the church and equip the church together? So it's not like one organization trying to pump up their, you know, brand or whatever it is, but it's like we are all here to serve the church, and it's really uh it's really exciting when any of us gets you know success in that space and more churches are coming to understand what it really looks like um to embrace financial discipleship as a whole.

SPEAKER_04

So yeah, as the body of believers, each one of us needs to get more in touch with our Heavenly Father and his call on our life and and participate. Let's let's use our life to shine a light on him and attract more people to his son. And um, sometimes that takes real resources, you know, and sometimes that takes um generous, that takes dollars sometimes for fuel. So I think that that's great. Yeah, okay. Uh I gotta ask this because it is a I don't know how you do it. You're a mom of two young ones, plus you've got a husband, and and I know him.

SPEAKER_01

He's awesome.

SPEAKER_04

No, he Adam's awesome. Yeah, yeah. He takes some looking after too. You gotta keep him in check. No, so how do you balance motherhood, um, being a wife, podcasts, center for financial disciples, just all all the things that are going on, how do you still stay rooted and grounded in your family and your faith while you're doing all these other things?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, um, it's definitely been a growth journey. And I can say I don't get it right all the time. Um, and I would first just have to say uh Adam is like a huge part of what I'm doing and how I can um even be here doing this right now. Like I watch the kids this morning. Um and so he carries a heavy load for our family and like my ministry work. Like it's truly like our work together. Um, so that is a big, big part. Um and I obviously just regular reliance on the Lord. I think 2025 was the year that I really just felt my limitations in new fun ways, uh, where there's just like this humbling happening, right?

SPEAKER_00

Of like I was raised to be very independent and to be like a strong independent woman, which comes out like softer than most, maybe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, but it was like, no, I can do everything on my own. Thank you. Like, I got it. And um, like I feel like God has been showing me like anyone who's accomplished anything uh has like a team of people working with them. It's not just like a solo person going out and accomplishing all this stuff. Um, and especially as a a female founder and someone who works in whether it's in finance or in the ministry space, these are both male-dominated spaces. Very much so. For sure. Um, they're um like God's growing me through that. Um, and there's been, you know, I think there's a lot of pressure on working moms in general, not just moms who like start companies and things, but there's a lot of pressure. And I mean, I will say that I think the first two years of my kids like life, they had chicken nuggets every day for like for lunch and dinner. I think just getting through it. Yeah, like judge me on that, it's okay. Um, like I experienced like real deep postpartum depression with uh Caroline, and like that's just part of the story, and um so it's not at all perfect, and I have found that I sometimes compare my worst to other moms' best. Yeah, and like I have some amazing friends who are just crazy awesome stay-at-home moms, and just a and that's like a true gifting. Like, I have been a mom long enough that I'm like, that is a spiritual gifting that they're gonna do it. Yeah, um, and I will look at them and be like, oh man, like they're crushing it, and I'm over here like floundering. Um, and so I've also just had to learn like that there's gonna be some things that they do really well, and then there's gonna be things that I get to do really well, and they're gonna look different. Um, and that's okay. And I pray all the time that I'm not messing up my kids in any like detrimental way. Um, but uh yeah, they get to experience mom in different in different ways.

SPEAKER_00

They um assume everyone's mom has a podcast, and I'm sure my kids listen to their podcast to fall asleep at night, which is really fun. They'll probably listen to this one.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you know, and they get to see mom like up on stage and doing all these fun things, and that's really, really sweet. Um, and I hope that gives them courage one day to like pursue whatever God is leading them into. Um but yeah, I I I had to learn that, and I'm still learning that that I can't compare like my worst days to other people's best days. Um but I certainly never want to come off as I have it all together all the time, everywhere. It is always just not possible.

SPEAKER_04

Well, it makes first off, it makes sense that your your kids listen to finance podcasts to fall asleep. Of course. That would put any kid to sleep.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_04

So at least you've got tons of great lullaby material, apparently. But uh just just knowing you and knowing your family, your kids are fantastic. Um, but really, I mean, I I don't know that many people that I can honestly say are going all out for Jesus wherever the path may lead. I've just watched, you know, just hearing your story and getting to know you and Adam and taking you out of the fashion industry, the thing that you thought you'd be doing. You're you're in a totally different world. I mean, you've really just been letting him take you by the hand and lead you. And uh the fruit is evident because you're impacting a lot of people's lives and you're bringing a new perspective to some pretty tough topics. Um, you're willing to take on this donor advice. Fun, you know, monster. I mean, you're this this podcast that you're doing. I know that that hasn't come without you know some of its challenges and anxieties, and not everybody loves uh what's being said on that show, but um I think a lot of people do. I think it it overwhelmingly it's it's been positive response, but I know with anything that you take on like that, there's some negative response too. So um thank you for just following the path and letting Jesus guide you. Thank you. It's it's inspiring. What do you got coming up next? I mean, I know as of the release of this show, Idle Treasure will probably be in its entirety available. So if somebody wanted to go binge the entire series, where can they find that?

SPEAKER_01

Um wherever you get your podcasts. Yeah, wherever you get your podcasts, you'll be able to find it.

SPEAKER_04

And then there's bonus clips and other material on CFD, is that right?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, yep. So if you click on the Idol Treasure series in the description, you'll be able to see a link to subscribe to bonus content because I mean, we recorded, I don't know, anywhere, probably like 30 to 50 hours worth of content for this. And we've distilled it down into maybe six hours, seven hours. So there's a ton of awesome content that just didn't make it in. And so for anyone who's just loving it and wants more, like we want to be able to give you more so they can subscribe through the link in the show notes.

SPEAKER_04

And then uh I'll have all the links and everything to the center, but it's is it financial discipleship.center? Yes. That's the website.

SPEAKER_01

That's the website. You actually created that website.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I'll give you the idea for the dot center.

SPEAKER_00

You did. I was like, how do I do this? This is a really long game.

SPEAKER_04

But no, I I I appreciate you being here. Um, you've been inspiring to me, and it's been awesome to uh be able to call you friend uh these last several years. So uh really cool and looking forward to seeing what you got coming up next.

SPEAKER_01

Thanks so much. Yeah, me too. Uh lots of fun things I think coming up. Um, but I'm looking forward to a season of slowdown and just uh asking God, like, where does he want us to go next? Because there's a lot of different directions, there's never a shortage of things to do. Um, but I'm excited for the for the next thing too.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, whatever it is, we'll we'll have you back on to uh to give an update. Yeah, that'll be great. Cool. Well, thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, we're over now.