Childlike Faith in a Complex World with Dr. Jeffrey Broadnax

How do you keep your faith alive when it becomes familiar?

In this powerful conversation, Dr. Jeffrey Broadnax shares wisdom from over 30 years in pastoral leadership, coaching, and ministry development.

We discuss:

• How to maintain childlike faith over time 
• What great leaders are missing today 
• His family’s powerful story—from slavery to leadership in just generations 
• Why the Church is uniquely equipped to lead conversations on race 
• The future of Christian leadership and ministry 

Dr. Broadnax brings a rare combination of humility, wisdom, and clarity to some of today’s most important conversations.

Whether you’re leading a team, a family, or simply trying to grow in your faith—this episode will challenge and encourage you.

• GIANT Worldwide https://www.giantworldwide.com/
• Grace Communion International https://www.gci.org/
• Connect with Dr. Broadnax: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dr-jeffrey-broadnax-69571529/
• Connect with Mark: www.markgreaves.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:00

Once you stop learning is when you die. Yeah, that's that's that's a death sentence, right? Yeah, I'm still learning how the gospel is being shared in a 21st century context rather than a 20th century context. We've got to make sure that we are not preparing the next generation for our past or preparing them for their future.

SPEAKER_02 0:19

The perspective shift that happens when they can see things from other people's point of view. The more you can see another person's perspective, it doesn't make everything easier necessarily, but it creates more clarity on how to go operate, what's next.

SPEAKER_04 0:31

That's exactly right. Imagine working for an organization or being in a group where you have something to say, but you're not heard, or you don't feel valued. This is what creates the discontent in most companies. This is when everything shifted for me in a meaning in a significant way.

SPEAKER_02 0:47

Welcome to First and Focused, the podcast where faith meets leadership. I know you're gonna put me on the spot. I don't know what you're gonna ask me to say. I'm Mark Greaves, and in each episode, I sit down with business and industry leaders who put God first in their work and stay focused on building his kingdom through their calling. I can sit here and talk with you all day. Keep up the great work, brother. Lord is using you powerfully. I love you. I love watching what Jesus is doing in your life. All right, welcome to First and Focused, where we meet with leaders from various industries who are using their influence to honor God first and also advance his kingdom through their various callings. Today we are here with Dr. Pastor Jeffrey Broadnacks. I don't know. I don't know which one to call your which one. Jeff you know that, right? Just Jeff. Um I always call you Doc. That's my favorite nickname. Appreciate it. It was hard work. No, man. I love you, brother. And I'm I'm beyond happy that you're here. Um, this is one of the ones that I've been looking forward to the most. So I'm excited to have officially you on the show. My pleasure, brother.

SPEAKER_04 1:53

Look, you you you you say this a lot, but you're one of my favorite people as well. You have just your story, your my my relationship with you over the last few years has shown me so much and given me such not just hope, but gives me it's taken me my mindset out of kind of the boxes that I'm in, even. So some of the trust things that that you've had to walk in and just good stuff. It's a reminder of what I need to be doing as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Well, thanks for being there because I've uh I've I've bent your ear many times uh for different things and we've had a lot of a lot of cool discussions. Yeah. Well, let me hit you with an intro because uh for anybody that's that knows you, you're you're pretty humble, so you would never brag about yourself. So we'll we'll give you a quick intro here. Dr. Jeffrey Broadnacks, you are a seasoned pastor, leadership coach, and trusted voice in ministry with decades of experience developing leaders and strengthening the church. Based in Columbus, Ohio, you've served as in pastoral leadership for over 30 years, guiding multiple congregations and mentoring both emerging and established leaders. You currently serve uh, let's see, as a leadership coach with Giant Worldwide, where you equip leaders to grow in clarity, health, and influence. Alongside your coaching work, you've held national and regional leadership roles within Grace Communion International, helping to develop pastors and ministry leaders across the country. You bring strong academic voice to your work, having completed doctoral research focused on the church's role in addressing racism, combining theology, leadership, and real world application. At your core, you're the pastor, uh you're a pastor, and a builder of people, passionate about helping others discover their identity in Christ, lead with purpose, and faithfully live out their calling in today's world. Uh, you're also a husband, a father, a grandpa, a lover and follower of Jesus, and uh and my friend. So appreciate that, man. So it's hard for me to even know really where to start the interview, but um you're one of four guys, this is true, actually, that have a letter that you've written to me hanging on my office wall. So there's there's people that have have had a lot of influence on me, um, wisdom, you know, that have been poured out. So um, you're one of those guys. So can you just, as we kick it off, um having been in ministry all these years, your faith to me seems more alive than ever. You always have like this childlike faith to you. How have you kept that over the years?

SPEAKER_04 4:10

You know, Mark, it's funny. It's one of those, I'm one of those people that you can ask me how you do something and you don't know. And so all I can all I can really say to you is that it is something that God has just given me. Um I I really see myself sometimes too much, like a like a even still a boy in a man's world, you know. Like I'm 60 years old, but I'm the youngest of six in my family. Um, and so just always being the youngest. And when I started out in ministry, I was one of the youngest in that in the crew of pastors that I was starting to engage with. So I was probably 10 years younger than many of the pastors that I was starting with. So when you're always the youngest in the room, uh now I'm one of the oldest in the room, but when you were when you were one of the youngest in the room, you always kind of are in that space where you're always learning.

SPEAKER_03 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

And and being um a lifelong learner, I I think I am. Uh, I I just I've gotten to the point where I really do believe that God is always gonna be teaching me, and I'm always gonna be his kid, right? I'm always his kid, and I try to help other people realize they're always his kid.

SPEAKER_03 5:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:14

And so if we can, if I can, if I cannot take myself too seriously, and sometimes not serious enough, but I don't take myself too seriously, and I'm always in a space where I believe God's teaching me something, and there's a lot, I realize how much I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 5:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:31

Um I I I normally don't even say that because I when I hear people say that sometimes it's like, okay, yeah, that's the thing you say. But really, I learn, I'm learning all the time. And I've I think I b I really do believe that once you stop learning is when you die.

SPEAKER_02 5:49

Yeah, that's that's that's a death sentence, right?

SPEAKER_04 5:51

So yeah, and so spiritually, um, even as a pastor, I I become the, I mean, I was in pastoral ministry for about 35 years, 36 years before I moved on to some uh national and regional roles. But um just in pastoral ministry, I see pastors doing things in the 21st century that I have no clue how to do. And I'm still learning how the gospel is being shared in a 21st century context rather than a 20th century context.

SPEAKER_02 6:22

Yeah, it doesn't seem like it should be that different. I haven't been having been born in the 20th century, it doesn't seem like it should be that, but it but it is delivery system is, right?

SPEAKER_04 6:30

100% and and there's parts of the delivery system that I still trust, I still trust what works for me. But I remember I had a mentor who told me, um, I wish you could have met him. Uh John Halfer was his name. And John told me lots of things. He's the one who he he taught me things like Jeff, always try to look at things from more than one point of view. So he says, you know, most people go through a front door every now and then you go take a look through the window because you'll see the same room, but you'll see it from a different perspective. And he told me years ago when we were working with college students and and high school students, he said, Jeff, we've got to make sure that we are not preparing the next generation for our past, but preparing them for their future. Wow. Huge.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

Because it's very easy. Well, there's there's there's four different angles there. There's our, their, past, future. It's not it's it's uh, yeah, that's that's that's crazy, yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_04 7:29

And and and that's true. Uh because if we put if I put people, young people or people in a box that I've already walked, what's that saying about what got where God is going to be taking them? Yeah, he's not taking them back there. That's right. That's right. So we'll talk about that a little bit, but uh, but I think what we're supposed to take with us are the lessons, are the are the impactful encounters that we've had with God. We take those into this unknown future. But you can't relive the past. All you can do is take the lessons from it. But it but that was a that was a game changer for me as a as a young leader.

SPEAKER_03 8:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:05

And it's something that I've that I continue to remember. So that that forced me. How old are you when you learned that? Oh, when I heard it, I was in my 20s. When I understood it fully, I was in my 30s. But as I started using it and being aware of it and trying to make it a part of me, I was probably my 40s and 50s. But it was it was it was just one of those things, man. I you get it academically? It to me is that difference between knowledge, understanding, and wisdom.

SPEAKER_03 8:32

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:33

You can know something and it makes perfect sense. So, yeah, that's cool, it's great knowledge. But then you understand the depth of it, right? But you can know it and understand it, never use it.

SPEAKER_03 8:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 8:43

And so now the challenge in gaining wisdom is learning how to use the things that God has taught you to help you know and understand. So I I would say it's just been in the last 20 years or so that I've that it's become a natural part of my interactions with people.

SPEAKER_02 9:02

Well, you just inadvertently answered, in my mind anyway, part of how you keep this childlike faith. Because you're going through the layers of depth of relationship with God, because you're hearing it, then you're understanding it, then you're peeling it back, you're implementing it, you're do by trial and error, you're seeing how it works, and then you're using it better and better and better throughout the course of your life. So I feel like staying in touch with God in those ways, He's gonna continually show you new things on your path and through your story, because the same thing that you heard about in your 20s is now playing out in your life very differently in your 60s. There has to just be moment after moment where you're like, oh yeah, God, oh yeah, God, oh that that's all I see how that's working now.

SPEAKER_04 9:45

It is, it is that is so much in my daily life, right?

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:48

Uh we talk about this all the time. It's like I I'm still, I still read read the scriptures, and I'm like, has that always been there? Really? Has that has that always been there? Yeah. Because it it is a it is a moment where God shows you something and you can read it the same way, but today you hear it differently. Yeah. Or today now attached to other things that you've learned or other things that he's taught me, I can go to I ask different questions. Right? And I I just I just feel like that has been a part of my my learning. I mean, I years ago, I I'd say this is probably 20, 25 years ago, this is probably when the shift happened. I've been studying Samuel and kind of going through that whole Samuel thing. Uh when Samuel was a kid and you know he heard the voice of God and and he didn't know it was the voice of God. So Eli basically told him, Look, um, next time you hear the voice, just say, Here I am, speak Lord, your servant is listening. For years, when I went to conferences or meetings, I'd take a notebook and I basically wrote down everything because I'm that guy. I want to be able to go back and look at it later. But I realized I didn't look at half of it, right? Most of it I didn't look at. And so what I started doing about 20, 25 years ago, 20 years ago, is I started writing whenever I would go to a conference or a gathering, I'd write the letters speak now, your servant is listening. Speak Lord, your servant is listening. S L Y I S L. Right. And then my prayer was got the stuff you want me to write down, let me write it down. So that I'm not just taking random notes.

SPEAKER_03 11:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:30

But that's that still, I'm still trying to trying to learn, trying to figure out what is it about this gathering? Everything's important, but some things are vital for me.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:41

And that's my my problem is I still take on take in too much stuff, and I'm trying to I'm I'm still trying to learn how to weed out what God wants for me and what's his good information.

SPEAKER_02 11:52

Yeah, that's good. Well, uh hard to learn, probably hard to decipher. Yeah. But good that you're still attempting it. And even at 60, you're still trying to learn, which is crazy. So you already kind of mentioned this. You were the youngest of six kids. So uh as my next question, because because I'm done it, what were you like growing up? Because you're in these leadership roles now, but being the youngest, like you don't necessarily think of it like the youngest being a a leader. A lot of times it doesn't happen. So what were you like? Um obnoxious.

SPEAKER_04 12:24

I I was just I how I felt about me. Here's the thing, Mark. How I felt about me and how others told me later they saw me were two different things. Yeah. So when I was growing up, you got older brothers, you got old, I got three older brothers and two older sisters.

SPEAKER_03 12:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 12:42

I have a brother who's a who's a year, we were a year and a day apart. And you know, so my brother, he was more athletic, he was better looking, you know. He he That's hard to do.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

That might be a lie, right there.

SPEAKER_04 12:54

He he was more he was more courageous, right? I was a chicken, right? And so I always saw myself as just the nice, the nice kid. I was gonna be, I was a rule follower, you know, I hated getting in trouble, I hated getting yelled at. So um I was just I was a rule follower. And so I I would learn to, I learned to do things, right? And so I didn't see myself as a leader very often. Um and because of my family, you know, my my my dad and my mom, while they while they taught us um to work hard, really work hard, we weren't, we weren't really, it wasn't really encouraged for us to enjoy successes, right? Because it was we didn't want to get the big head, right? You won't you know, it was like that whole thing, you want to be humble, you don't want to get the big head. And so you and frankly, I really never learned how to enjoy successes because it was always once you succeed, it's time to move on to the next thing. And so I never saw things as really as valuable as they really are. And so everything was once you accomplish something, you just kind of move on. So I was a springboard diver and I was a top diver in the city in direct leagues, right? And that kind of thing. And I was a ran track, I was really good, but I was never really able to fully appreciate them. So I never saw myself as like the real leaders. I was a leader, but I wasn't like the real leaders. Yeah, you know, kind of thing. And so I always saw myself in that space. There were always those people who were um who had the positions in power uh and and responsibilities and the trust. And then there were those of us who who could get things done and people relied on us, but they didn't exactly treat us like we were the leaders.

SPEAKER_02 14:39

There was no formal yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:41

And so you learn to lead from within. Um and that that's probably what you see now, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

Um it is, yeah, I I guess that's that's the way to do it. I when I was a kid, um, I learned to work hard, I learned to value people. I spent a lot of time. My my my parents spent we spent a lot of time around older people. And so my upbringing is really two generations above me, right? They we we spent time sitting with older people. Uh I mean, my dad's 85 years old, and he still every weekend goes and visits people to nursing homes.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

He's going in there, too.

SPEAKER_04 15:18

He's going he's going to nursing homes.

SPEAKER_02 15:20

Yeah. He's probably ministering to people younger than him.

SPEAKER_04 15:22

Yeah. So yeah, he is. And so he he would take us when we were kids and we would sit and we'd so we'd hear these old people stories.

SPEAKER_03 15:29

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

And so I live my life kind of in an in an old person world.

SPEAKER_03 15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:33

And then we'd go play with my friends, but we we spent time in that old people world. So I I kind of learned to kind of navigate with older people. That's good though. So yeah, so that how I saw myself was um, you know, obviously you get a little full of yourself when you're when you're the senior or when you're when you're the top dog. But for the most part, until I got into college, um I didn't really see myself as a leader leader. And after college, it it started happening.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Like, well, how did that change? Because obviously you went into ministry, you've had leadership in ministry, and then one of the next places I want to go is like like your giant leadership certified, like you're you're you're a leader within that network. Like, how does that work? Okay. What what's the transition look like for you?

SPEAKER_04 16:17

I I'll tell you, it the transition was people pouring into me. That my that mentor I told you about, I had people who were who were good to me, but there were when I was probably in probably in my it was 20, 20, 21. This is when everything shifted for me in a I mean in a significant way. We had a camp ministry, uh, our denomination had a camp ministry, and so we had a big camp. We'd bring a thousand young people a summer to this to this camp of Minnesota. And um the director and some other uh leaders there just poured into me. But when I was a senior in college or junior college, my this mentored man became a mentor. Um, actually, you know his daughter, uh Judy Hoban from over at Trial Eye School. Yeah. Judy's dad was my mentor. Judy's dad married my wife and I in California. Yeah, so um, so my we go back a long way. So that's a whole nother story in itself. But he invited me when I was in college to be his faculty aide. And he was one of the first people to believe in me. Yeah. And then we would go up to the camp, and the camp director and the person who ran the basketball and volleyball program, which uh I I worked under him, he was one of the best coaches and one of the best leaders I've ever known. One of the best teachers I've ever known. He believed they believed in me. Dave Gothels and Kermit Nelson. They believed in me. And uh, and there have been others like Jared Barry Burton, some others, they believed in me, but these guys gave me opportunity and they trusted me. Yeah, and it was the first time I felt trusted.

unknown 18:03

Right?

SPEAKER_04 18:03

They would release me, and that changed everything. Yeah, there's a di there's a difference there. And and that allowed me to actually believe um I'm not just kind of in a role, but I'm trusted to lead that role.

SPEAKER_03 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:18

And it was little things. That's where you start taking ownership of it. That's where we start taking ownership. And so that became a part of the way I try to lead. That like we we ran a gym, right? So we ran basket, we were doing teaching basketball and volleyball all day, every day for three weeks. And I would run the gym. We had a staff of about 15, and so the way I was taught, they trained me, those guys would let us take run the entire program for the day. So when I began leading the program a couple years later, I led it for about five years. That's what I would do. Every one of my staff, you have you have the hour. I'm I'm online with you. I'm I'm I'm a teacher, you're the head. And so empowering them to lead the whole it was a structured program, it was beautiful. And uh, but you know, so by pouring into me and giving me that opportunity to lead, I began to see myself as a leader.

SPEAKER_03 19:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:11

Changed everything.

SPEAKER_02 19:12

So it's not much different than that in corporate environments or in ministry environments. It's a lot of it's about trust, responsibility, ownership. I mean, obviously the competence and the character and all those things have to be there in the individual in order for that to be like, you know, fully given. But it's not much different. What what do you do with Giant? How did that all come about?

SPEAKER_04 19:36

It's funny. Our denomination, I mean, my my role, it's adjunct with Giant, but uh my role is I'm the US director of ministry for Grace Community International. Um, that's our denomination. So our denomination, we had gone through a presidential change back in the late 20, like 2016, 2017. And so as a part of our uh leadership change, our new president was he's a he's a leader, he's a he's a he's a visionary leader. And so he had come into contact one of our other leaders had come into contact with a guy from Giant, uh, who was talking about transformational change within uh leadership structures. And so Greg, our our president, Greg did a little bit of training with like five guys that uh who were the key leaders at the time. And um they got involved with Giant. So in the next wave, they got me involved as one of the other regional leaders. And it was Giant, Giant actually is a it's a it's a business leadership um development group that works with shifting cultures or transforming cultures.

SPEAKER_03 20:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:45

But it began in the it began with the church. All every every one of the giant tools came out of the church.

SPEAKER_03 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:51

Jeremy Kubachek and Steve Cochran, those two guys, they're believers, and they offered this stuff to the church, and the church really wasn't ready. And so they took it to the corporate world. Even though it's still in the church, they brought it to the corporate world. But so our denomination went through the giant material and it was transformational for us. Our leadership culture shifted dramatically. It wasn't that it was bad the right before Greg, but it was it was it needed a shift, and it shifted dramatically. And so I ended up uh going through additional training and becoming a certified guide.

SPEAKER_03 21:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:26

Uh, and becoming a uh a trained leader to train others. And so it is it it was it's been a game changer for me. I truly wish I knew the things I've learned in Giant 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 21:41

I really do wish that.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

So Johanna Hill has told me about uh a training that you've done at Tree of Life. W what is that training about?

SPEAKER_04 21:49

Okay. The the the central training of um Giant is called the Five Voices.

SPEAKER_02 21:56

Yeah. Right. Can you take us through that real quick because quickly uh Uh he talked about that training. He's like, man, you got to get Jeff to do that at some point. And I was like, go for it.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

All right. So you most leaders have taken Myers Briggs and you've taken all the inventories you take, whether you're an ox or an otter or an eagle, you know, red, blue. Oh, yeah. Disc testing. And all of those things, what ends up happening, and when I was doing my counseling degree, that that we had to learn all of those equippings and kind of structures to try to figure out how to help people learn their leadership. But what happens often with those is that people get typecast. You become a four-letter code. Yeah. You become a color. You become this or that. And that's not how we're wired. And you don't stay in the same leadership approach throughout your entire leadership life. So what those guys did, they started out of Myers Briggs. Steve Cochran, I think, was a was a leader in Myers Briggs and helping with that process. But what they decided to do was they they realized that there was something missing. And the spiritual component of it was missing. Part of that is how are we wired? Not just how do we lead, how are we wired? Most people, they say our leadership style comes from three places: nature, how you're how you're wired, nurture, how you've been brought up, or choice, the things you've decided to do. Most people stay in leadership based upon either choices that they've made, because they're in an industry and they've risen in this industry. It doesn't feed their soul, but they're in this industry. Yeah. Right. Or they operate out of how they've been nurtured, or maybe they've had good leadership or bad leadership. And so they default to what they've been, how they've been brought up. But what would happen if people would figure out how God has wired them? How he's wired you, and then you can lead out of that. Right. And so they they found that, you know, there are five, we they call them voices. They're not, they're called voices, not um, and if you you can attach them to the fivefold ministry, but I'll do that another time. Um the the five voices that we all have access to, all five. It's just some are more easy to access. Okay. So there's the pioneer voice. The pioneer voice is the strategic voice, it's the it's the leadership, it's the one that's not afraid of any challenge, right? And it can move, it can strategize, and it can lead people with with a passion. Yeah. Powerful. Most of your CEOs are pioneers. Yeah. Most of your leaders like that are pioneers, they're drivers, right? Now there's there's positives and there's negative to each one, but the pioneer voice is that strategic voice. Some people are just wired that way. Other people are not. Another voice is your is your creative voice. So imagine people who are like drones. They they can get up and they can get a thousand feet up and they can see the future so well. They can't always explain what they see, but they can, but they see it and they see the good that's ahead, and they see some of the negative things that are ahead. And and yet, and they have such a clear picture of it, they wouldn't be able to get you, you know, how to how to get there, but they see those things and you need those people, right? Very few people that are like that, right? Uh, you have you have the connectors. Some people are just born connectors, they are the people of relational connection. They uh relational partnerships, right? They they're they're just gifted in that. No matter what you what you need, they either know how to do it or they know somebody who does.

SPEAKER_03 25:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:32

And they can bridge you and they can help other effective communicators and they can help people connect with the strategic vision, but also for the people who say, okay, well, how's that strategic vision going to hurt people or help people? These people are the bridges who could help those people come together.

SPEAKER_03 25:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:49

Then you've got the nurturers, the nurturer voice. The nurturer voice is a voice that is always about relational harmony. You all these people will do anything, no matter what you're doing, they're always concerned about the family, the connection, the how does this apply to other people? What is this going to mean for the lives of people? And they they don't like disharmony, right? They will keep you bonded. They will, they will be a glue, right? They're like a relational glue. And then the last group, the last voice, is the guardian. There are those people whose gift they're wired for systems and processes. They're wired to make sure that they work. And they don't just work, they're repeatable, right? Because you can have a great idea, but somebody needs to be able to pick that thing apart and say, will this be repeatable? Right? Not just why, but how. How do I put some order into this thing?

SPEAKER_00 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:44

And they're and they're and they're gifted that way. And so what the five voices really gets to is that in every group, you've got people who fit into those five categories, right? About 30%, about 43% of all groups, and this this is this was done research-wise, right, for them, uh, business research, about 43% of the population are nurturers. That's a high percentage. Almost half. 30% of the general population in any group are guardians.

SPEAKER_02 27:17

So think about this. Three out of four just want to keep the peace and make it work right? That's pretty much how you're saying. Uh-huh. Wow. And then you have about um nine percent that are creatives.

SPEAKER_04 27:32

Okay? Okay. So you got 82% of people. 82% of the people, generally, those people are the ones who don't get heard very easily because the pioneers and the connectors are the ones with the strongest voices. 100%. So imagine working for a for an organization or being in a group where you have something to say, but you're not heard, or you don't feel valued. This is what creates the discontent in most companies.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:58

Is that these this group of people, huge group of people, don't feel heard or valued. So then you've got um 11% of the population are connectors, right? 11% are connectors, and 9% are pioneers. So when you think about that, but the pioneers and the connectors are the ones who can can share their vision really clearly. They can they can captivate a room, yeah, but they also suck the air out of the room.

SPEAKER_02 28:27

Yeah, for sure. Wow, and that's not so different in the church. Uh you're right. You're right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:32

The vast majority of most churches are your leaders, are your guardians and and and nurturers.

SPEAKER_03 28:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:39

So what Giant is striving to do is, you know, if you started, I'm sure you've done this to you in the corporate world. Most with the for your first day on the job, you learn about, you learn how to align. You get your you get your your book, you understand what the what the values are, the mission, the vision, the values, you know, you learn your job description, and your job is to align with who the company is. And then is to execute your job.

SPEAKER_03 29:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:03

Right? And then build capacity. What giant did was realize that, okay, that works, but that creates the the problems that are always there. And if you get in your mind like a bike pedal, if you start with the with the with the uh with the pedal down here, you gotta do some work just to get it, get it moving. Yeah. So what they decided, what they said was, what if we started with these two aspects of communication and relationship? What if you could learn as a strategic leader how to communicate clearly to the nurturer? Because they're opposite voices. Yeah. If you could learn to communicate with them and build a relationship with them, now you've got the momentum for the alignment execution and capacity.

SPEAKER_03 29:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Right? And so, what giant, what the whole giant framework of the five voices is, if you could help your organization understand how how you're what your organizational structure is, what the leaders are like, then you learn to communicate with them and learn them to communicate with you. Because many pioneers don't understand what it's like on the other side of them.

SPEAKER_03 30:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 30:07

They don't. And you've seen it both both ways, right? Yeah. And so, but because each one has a strength, but each one also has it's a there's a downside to that voice. 100%. And so what if what if you as a leader could understand the strength and the downside to your voice? Every way, what if the guardians could learn that and the nurtures could learn that? Now your communication changes. Now, when you align, you're communicating.

SPEAKER_02 30:34

The the connection of people to each other and the perspective shift that happens when they can see things from other people's point of view. Because one of my favorite quotes is we don't see things the way they are, we see things the way we are. That's right. And it's it's just the truth.

SPEAKER_00 30:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

The more you can see another person's perspective within an organization, and it you can it doesn't make everything easier necessarily, but it creates more clarity on how to go operate what's next.

SPEAKER_04 30:58

That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

And that's that's what a lot of people are looking for, is clarity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:02

And so with Giant, one of the key frame uh phrases is Giant is trying to help leaders know themselves to lead themselves.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:10

Because once you know yourself to lead yourself, now you can lead your team.

SPEAKER_03 31:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:13

And it's all for giant, it's it's really the desire to liberate leaders, to give them high support, to give them high challenge.

SPEAKER_03 31:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:24

To liberate them to be who they've been made to be. Because what happens when everybody can operate in their giftings?

SPEAKER_02 31:32

That's where the real magic's at.

unknown 31:34

That's where the magic is.

SPEAKER_02 31:35

Yeah, because then all of a sudden those strengths are coming out, and people are you're fully giving of yourself the best things that you have to give, and that's where the ultimate satisfaction and things come from, too. So your your whole team is probably more fulfilled as a result. And so that's what we've been trying to do as a denomination with our pastors.

SPEAKER_03 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 31:53

And their teams. That's really good. Help people see who God has made them to be. Yeah. And then live in that. And then how do we come together with that?

SPEAKER_02 32:02

That's just it's cool to hear the perspective of you know how you're laying it out because you're in leadership within your denomination, but you guys are tackling more than just kind of the nuts and bolts of having church and and going through the moat and doing the Sunday stuff. No, no, no. You're really thinking like, how do we go be the best we can for our flock so that we can lead more people to Jesus, so that we can incorporate their gifts and their strengths, so they can become great disciples and go lead more people to Jesus. Like it's it exponentially fans out.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

And it's exactly what Jesus did. Look at the twelve. Look how different they were. Yeah. And look at how he used each one of them to do to be who they were meant to be. Yeah. I mean, in the chosen, it shows a lot, right? Yeah. So when you watch how Jesus, Jesus didn't ask Matthew to do the things that he was going to ask Peter to do.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

That's true. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Or Z to do, right? Yep. He let Matthew be who he Matthew's a guardian in that space, right? He he's the one that's jotting down everything.

SPEAKER_02 32:55

Specifics. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:56

Peter couldn't have done that to save his life. Right. Right? That's not who he's wired to be. That's true. And so what would happen if we were to come to grips with how Jesus has made us, the gifts he's poured us. Romans 12 talks about how there is, we're one body, we're differing gifts. So if this is your gift, use it. And if this is your gift, use it. Be fitly framed together while every part does its work. That's the mindset. No one part greater than the other. No one part greater than the other. Just unique. Yep. And even the ones behind the scenes. Even those those look, let your kidneys not work, and you got a problem.

SPEAKER_03 33:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:33

That's what that's what we're striving to do. That's what Giant is really trying to do in the church, but also in the corporate world.

SPEAKER_03 33:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 33:40

Because there are people who are silent in every meeting.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

All right, you ready to shift gears? Shift. All right, I'm shifting. So I've known this part of your story, and I think it's just such a beautiful part of your story. We've had many conversations about it. And the way that you approach this, um just the words that come out of your mouth are so full of love, and just the ways that you've explained kind of some of the doctoral thesis work and things that you did. Um, they just always intrigued and inspired me. So um your great-grandpa was born technically, maybe not in the slaves. You said he was born in 1864. 1865. I've always thought in my head he was born into slavery. That's not that many generations removed. That's three generations ago. So you have a great grandpa born into that environment in Mississippi. Three generations later, um, you're getting your doctorate. I know you were able to visit his his grave site um after you achieved that, which is a really cool moment. Yeah. Awesome milestone. So, first off, like what did that feel like to you? But then also, how have you in your family, how have you guys operated through this? Um, knowing that that slavery is in your your family tree, yeah um, but that never really defined you guys. Your relationship with Christ didn't um I'm just kind of curious to hear your thoughts on that, how that worked.

SPEAKER_04 34:58

I I have to say, I I truly recognize how blessed I am, right? Um my family, my dad's side, um, I came from loving family, both sides of my family, my mom's side and my dad's side, incredibly loving families, right? And and connected families, but loving families. But my dad's side of the family were religious and spiritual, Christian. My mom's side of the family were not necessarily Christian.

SPEAKER_03 35:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:24

So the journey that I'm on, I'm sure had there were parts of it that my mom's side would help with, but the the spiritual face of my worldview came from there. And it was it was such a an amazing thing as I think about it now. My my grandmother, my dad's mom, her brothers were pastors, her father was a pastor, um, and they were pastors in the church that I grew up in before moving on to the church that I'm in now. So when I was growing up, my dad, there's six of them, and all of us, my grandparents and all of our kids, all the kids, we all grew up, we went to the same church. We were there every Sunday. All of us were at church together in one church. And that was the the mindset was we were a believing family. My grandparents were believers. Um, and so my my grandfather, my great grandfather was a believer. I mean, he he what what I know of him, what he gave my grandfather and and his brothers and sisters was a trust in God.

unknown 36:32

Right.

SPEAKER_04 36:33

And I I just have to say that has shaped how I see everything in the world. Um I could tell you with 100% certainty, I never once in my life saw my grandparents, my mother, my grandmother, my grandfather, or my dad's eye. I never saw them say one mean or nasty thing to anyone. I never saw them do anything that wasn't honorable in my mind. This is again, I'm a kid.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 37:06

My grandmother lived to be 97, and my grandfather lived to be 87. I never saw that. What I saw was believing Christian, Christ-loving, loving people. Uh and I would go to church with my grandparents sometimes when my parents didn't go when I was a kid. And that shaped, it just shaped my understanding. So to have my great-grandfather be born in 1864 in Mississippi, which he was probably conceived during during the year of emancipation. So and in Mississippi, as we know, Juneteenth didn't happen in Texas until 1865, and Mississippi's right next to there. So you're you're that whole part of the world was still in Reconstruction Jim Crow South. My grandparents were born in Mississippi, and my grandmother was born in Alabama. Not a real easy time. Not an easy time. But what gave them the ability to not be overwhelmed by all of that was their reality that there was a guy who loved them. So no. My grandparents never owned a home. They lived in apartments. They raised six kids in a three-bedroom apartment. And they never had lots that we never wanted for anything. And that translated to my parents. Now it's not doesn't mean we haven't had drama in our lives. They've gone through some major stuff. Yeah. But it was always because they knew that God is real, that Jesus is real. And he would see them through. So that shaped my understanding of how I saw race, how I saw racism. We I mean we grew up uh in an integrated world, right? I grew up in an integrated world. I was born in 1965, but we grew up in an integrated world. My best friends growing up were white, and from from four years old on. My best friend was a white kid, and he we went all the way through school together from kindergarten on. And then, you know, I've I've had white friends, and and and so we've been that's been my world. So I never, I never, even though racism would touch us, yeah, it didn't shape me. Right? I was never burdened and weighted down. And I have to believe that was because my grandfather, my great grandfather, when he was going through having having to farm and being taken advantage of and being treated like he was in Mississippi, I can only attribute it to the fact that he knew there was a God.

SPEAKER_03 40:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 40:04

And he did not want his grandchildren or his children to live in that. And I so when I when I finished, my my grandfather, um, my great grandfather, he he did go to school. I I had thought for a while that he he couldn't read, but he he did go to school. I I had misread the census data, but he had a he had a very short education, but he ended up owning a hundred acres of land in Mississippi. And yet, what was his dream? Because he never was able to really leave there. What was his dream? What would his dream been for his son or for his grandson? He d my my dad was three years old when he died. And so when I finished my degree, my doctorate, I took my robe, I took my hood, and I went down to him and my great grandmother's grave in Mississippi in a run-down cemetery, and I laid it out. And I just thanked God for him and her and all the generations that came before them who don't know anything about his dad.

SPEAKER_03 41:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:17

I thank God that I was able to be an answer to his prayer. I I can guarantee you he prayed that his children would have my life.

SPEAKER_02 41:27

Yeah. Look at what the the loving power of God, too, because the perspective that you have and that your family's had the entire way through. Jesus' love overpowers any other thing that could possibly have entered through your guys' minds or um the way that you approached your life, um, just the the loving power of God in and through your entire family tree. Um what a special legacy that he left that now is is being played out in your life daily. Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_03 41:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:59

I look, I I and I I wish my I wish my kids could could experience that same thing. I mean, that that has kind of gone away from in and generational.

SPEAKER_02 42:10

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 42:10

But my reality is I know that I am an answer to prayers. Yeah. I remember my grandmother told me, she had because her again, her dad was a pastor and her brothers were pastors. She wanted one of her kids to be pastor. And it didn't happen. And then I remember she was in her 90s, and I'm visiting with her, pastor, and she told me how proud she was of me. And that she said, I prayed for you. And I I'm a firm believer that I'm a I'm I'm in pastoral ministry because Rebecca Old Broadnecks prayed for her grandbaby.

SPEAKER_02 42:51

Yeah, probably. And I'm I'm in. All right, so I know your your doctoral work that you did was on how basically the church should lead on this topic of racism.

SPEAKER_00 43:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 43:04

Because um, who better uh to be able to speak into this than those that have the loving power of Jesus and the Holy Spirit? Um can you just take us through some of your work and then your findings on this? Because as you've explained it to me, um it just makes so much sense. So maybe maybe some of the positives on like why this should happen, and maybe some of the reasons why it isn't. Um I'd love to hear your perspective.

SPEAKER_04 43:28

Yeah, I mean, I uh one of the things that has frustrated me in my lifetime again. I grew up in 1950, I was born in 1965, so the civil rights movement was going on. Um between Kennedy's death and King's death. And as I as I listen today, I'm so frustrated with the way race is portrayed or the way what the the role race, racial division has in our country. It doesn't mean that there isn't racism that I I don't I believe there is racism. I believe there there is Wretched racism. But it, I believe it's also powerless. But that's my own, that's my view, and I'll tell you why. And so what I began to, what I began to look at after after George Floyd, um, I think what sparked me doing the work, doing the doctoral program, the way I was doing it, was that shooting in South Carolina at Mother Emmanuel Church, where that young man went into that church while those folks were praying and he shot them. That did something to me because the responses of those people in that moment was the response that my grandparents would have had. They'd have prayed for that young boy while he was doing the very thing he was doing. And because they because they knew they they they know, okay, God is God. But when I watched the movie afterwards called Mother Call of Emmanuel, you saw the whole range of the families and how they approached it. Some were able to forgive, some were not, and they were believers. Some were not, some were just struggled with how bad it was. And that was a catalyst for me. And I couldn't shake that. And then George Floyd happened and Brianna Taylor and all the other all the other things that have built up. And I what I saw was that things were getting racially worse. And so I asked the question if Christianity has the answer to all racial division, and I believe we do. Yeah. Name is Jesus, then why don't we see that racial unity in the life of the church? Because if we have the answer, knowledge, understanding, and wisdom, why don't we see it in the life of the church? And then I had a second question. Second question was if Christianity has the answer to racial division and all division, all things that separate, then why isn't the church the leading voice in bringing it about? Those are great questions. And the answer hurt me, but the one I believe what I believe the answer is, is that we've never embraced the true answer. We've attached him to the answer, to our own answers. We've used civil rights, we've used protests, we've used all these other things, we've used these reconciliation weekends, we've used all that stuff to try to solve the problem when the problem's already been solved. We attach Jesus to our activities as opposed to starting with Jesus as the cornerstone.

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 46:32

Because if he's the cornerstone, then it says he has broken down all walls of hostility. And he has reconciled all things to himself, all things to the Father. He's reconciled everything. So there is nothing that is not reconciled in his life, death, and resurrection. So what would happen if we would start with Jesus as the first stone in and then as the capstone, which is what the church talks about him as? How would that change our approach? And what I found, I started, I just studied the life of the church. In particular, I studied the life of the black church, but I looked at the church as a whole. And the church as a whole, we we talk about the impact of Jesus, but we don't start with him. So that even today, in 2026, over 90% of the Christian churches in America are homogenous. That means there is one predominant race in the church.

SPEAKER_03 47:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:31

S the 11 o'clock on Sunday morning is still the most segregated hour of the week.

SPEAKER_02 47:38

That's an interesting thing to hear, but it's I think it I it's true. Like as it's hitting me, I'm like, yeah, that's true for the most part.

SPEAKER_04 47:46

Yeah. And so our the the question becomes what would happen if we set aside the political right and the political left? If we set aside the um the things such as um liberation theology or black power movement, or even getting on this side where we talk about colorblindness, you know, where we don't see color. You you have to see color. Yeah. It's obvious God made us that way. What if we moved away from the extremes and all started pointing toward Jesus? You can be progressive, you can be left and work toward Jesus because then you'll be coming closer to the other. And you can be conservative, but if we're working toward Jesus, then we're solving, we're starting with Jesus and looking at you as brother, sister, or neighbor. Right? That's what we haven't done. And so my work was building a case for what I called Christ privilege. Not white privilege, not black privilege, Christ privilege.

SPEAKER_03 48:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 48:51

Because if we start with our identity, which is as beloved children of God, it changes how I see everybody. This is, you know, one of my favorite passages, and it's a life passage for me, is 2 Corinthians 5, where Paul says, if anyone's in Christ, he's a new creation. The old is gone, the new is come. And it talks about how we can no longer see, because we are compelled by the love of Christ. Again, the cornerstone is love of Christ. Because we are compelled by the love of Christ, we can no longer see anyone from a worldly point of view, even though we once saw Christ that way. And it built goes down and talk about how we are ambassadors for Christ and that we have been given a ministry of reconciliation, and we've been given the message of reconciliation.

SPEAKER_03 49:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:39

To tell everyone to be reconciled. The reconciliation has happened. Be reconciled.

SPEAKER_03 49:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

Stop seeing each other from worldly point of views. And we can see it, but again, we can understand it. But what's it look like in real time? And if the church was sharing that message without the political stuff on either side, if we were sharing that message of being brothers and sisters in Christ, he says, even if your brother or your sister or your neighbor comes at you as an enemy, the response was 100% the same. Love them.

SPEAKER_03 50:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:23

Love them like I love them. Now that maybe me had to tell a hard truth.

SPEAKER_02 50:28

Wasn't that the new command that he gave us? I think it's the only one he has said, I give you a new commandment. Love them like I love them. Yeah. It's number 11, I guess. I don't all this other stuff hangs on it.

SPEAKER_04 50:39

And so yeah, so my my work, the doctoral work, and I'm I'm actually writing a book right now on that process of not just um seeing it that way, but living that way. I'm using the story of Joshua. Um and the title of the book is called We Are Well Able, because it's that same mindset. There are giants in the land. There, there was walled cities, but God had promised that that land was going to belong to them. He settled it. If they went in with the mindset that it's settled, it was settled. If they went in scared of the giants, if they went in scared of the walls or scared of all the things that were happening, or letting all those things get in the way, they would never do, they'd never be able to live free in the promised land.

SPEAKER_03 51:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:28

That to me is the mindset that racism and racial division and all these other divisions, that's what it's done. They're giants. Well, God said, God didn't say uh if there's giants there, you can't go in. He said, go see what's in there. But these are all the things I've already delivered to you.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 51:47

So how do we as believers start focusing and start teaching on and start speaking into the racial divides, which is a spiritual problem? How do we address it as a spiritual problem and not as an interpersonal problem? It's lived out interpersonally, but it is a spiritual problem.

SPEAKER_03 52:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 52:08

That's my that's the that's the worldview of the of the work that I did there. That's that's what that's what I'm working on right now. But because it to me, it's it's not just simple, it's profound. And it is it is definitely something that will take humility and it will take courage, because we don't want to do it that way.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

True. I think that's the that's the that's the follow-up question of this is that how do you convince the church to adopt this and move forward as the church is called to do versus the way that it's already going about?

SPEAKER_04 52:47

I'm so glad you use that language. How do you convince the church? I'm firm that this is something that the Holy Spirit has shown me about this issue. That in in Latin there are two two in English are two words, convince and convict. They both mean the same thing. Convence means to conquer with, right? Con with and convince means to conquer. But you can convict, vict, victory, con means to conquer with. They both mean the same thing, except that they take on different issues. When you convince someone, you're convincing them here.

SPEAKER_02 53:32

Yeah, you're you're basically persuading me that it's a good idea in my head. That's right. I'm pushing you through, right?

SPEAKER_04 53:38

But when you are convicted, you're convicted here. Yeah. I believe that what God has called me to be a part of is helping the church experience the conviction of the Holy Spirit that this is the way to go. The convincing will come after the conviction. They gotta feel it in their heart first. It has to, because out of the heart are the issues of life. Yeah. How the mouth will speak. So my my prayer is that the information, and this is one of the challenges that I have, because we live in such a uh an information-based world, right? Yeah, a convincing world, I have to convince you that why why well why wouldn't this work? Why wouldn't this be the right way? Well, here's the reality: if we can be convicted that we can no longer see people from a worldly point of view because of the love of Jesus, now I gotta think about what I've got to do. So I'm gonna have to be convinced by God as to how I'm supposed to approach this.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

That's that's the plan. I don't know about you, this isn't on our script at all, but I I do feel like the time is now for that kind of a conversation. And the the reason I feel like that is because I feel like we've been convinced a lot of different ways to stay divided for long enough. In my own world, I just see so many more people waking up to some of these lies. I I think I feel like the lie has gone on long enough to where um for whatever reason we're seeing it clearly. Some are seeing it more through spiritual eyes than through these these temporary lenses that we're wearing. And we're looking around at each other and noticing that my neighbor is not my enemy. Um the other political side is not my enemy. Another race is not my enemy. Our enemy is one enemy, and it's it's the devil. And that's what he's doing is he's deceiving and he's lying and he's distorting. And I just I feel like for whatever reason, um he's played his card a little too too far, and people are starting to wake up and realize that. I don't think they know what the solution is yet, and I don't think they can articulate it the way you just did. But I do feel like the timing may be right that more people be receptive to the message. I don't know if you're feeling that too.

SPEAKER_04 56:05

Yeah, I hope so. And you know, as you know, I talked a few months back. Um this has been on my agenda for five years, almost six years, and I've I've been I've talked myself out of stepping up because, okay, well, who cares what what you're saying? Or, you know, well, what what about all the good that's being done by things like the civil rights movement and continue moving away? What about all the good that's being done? And I I don't want to diminish the good that has been done.

SPEAKER_03 56:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 56:37

But I also want to recognize and acknowledge that that isn't changing anything. True because it's not changing hearts, it's only changing systems. If you truly want to change it, wow, that's a good quote.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

That's really true, though.

SPEAKER_04 56:51

If you truly want to change systems, yeah, fully change, if you want to trans, no, we're changing systems instead of transforming systems. God didn't come to bring change, he came to bring transformation. I mean, to go literally from one form to another. So if if our if the systems that we're trying to change are socio-political, you're just transferring power back and forth from one person. God's not working in socio-political areas, he's working in spiritual areas, which will leak out into socio-political ones. But if all of our efforts are focused on the socio-political uh or the economic or the um power-based or the relational, then sure, we'll have some great stuff, but the hearts won't change.

SPEAKER_03 57:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 57:45

And it for some people that's not enough because they, you know, they don't the argument will be, well, you're just being so heavenly minded, you know, earthly good. Okay. And I I accept that that's how that feels, but I don't accept it as the full truth because here's what Jesus said to Paul. He says, we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. We are wrestling against principalities, powers, and spiritual wickedness in high places. So if we are trying to use human means to solve a spiritual problem, it will fall, and we will have deluded ourselves to believe that we could accomplish that.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:25

When it's already been accomplished.

SPEAKER_03 58:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:28

Jesus says, you go proclaim that. You go tell people, I have freed them. It's like Juneteenth.

SPEAKER_03 58:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 58:37

It's the reality of Juneteenth. On January 1st, 1863, slavery was over.

SPEAKER_02 58:46

On paper.

SPEAKER_04 58:47

On paper. Yeah. But for a thousand days, for two and a half years, there were slaves in Galveston, Texas, and other parts of the Dental South who didn't know. Yet their reality was they were free.

SPEAKER_03 59:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 59:04

Their conditions were they were not. So when General Granger came in and said, We need to read something to you. You've been freed. Our reality is we've been freed for 2,000 years. It plays out in human power struggles and power dynamics and political lefts and rights and country stuff. But Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. And he says, No longer are you to operate like that. Tell the disciples. The Gentiles and the other rulers of this world, they like to lord power over people. Not so of you. This whole race thing and the whole political thing is about power. And we want power in a world, but we are citizens of a different kingdom. Yeah. That sounds like it won't make a big difference. How could the church ever say that? Because a whole bunch of people without education turned the world upside down with a liberating message. And I and I just believe that that is the time is now. And I pray about this for me because I'm not the only one. There are so many others who are saying similar things. I do believe that God has given me a unique voice in it. Well, I believe that too. I I don't have to be the voice. I'm one of many. But I do believe my voice in the sphere of influence that God has granted me, that I need to stand at cost. I think it'll come at a cost. Uh I don't think our society wants to hear that.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:53

I don't think people who are fighting for power want to hear that. They didn't want to hear it when Jesus was alive either, though. Because what you just described of wanting earthly power and authority and um whatever whatever that's disguised under seeking justice or equality or whatever that's that's it's underneath an umbrella of something that sounds good. But it's the same as the Pharisees wanted their their power on earth to remain. They didn't want to submit to spiritual authorities in the bigger picture like you're just describing. Yep. And they killed them for it. So it's I mean I don't think you hopefully won't endure that. But it's a sim a similar thing, you know, it's um uh earth like you just said, like we can't solve spiritual problems with earthly solutions, it's just not gonna work.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:38

You and and you you can't what happens when how do I convince someone that the definition of justice is not human-defined, human-devised, yeah. The definition of justice is God's justice. How does God see justice? Yeah, not how do we as humans want justice? How does God define justice? And when you are convicted of that, when you're convicted that justice and mercy and truth, there is right and wrong. There is the application of it though, that reads heart, not always just action.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:26

We have to lay down our stuff. But what was throughout the scriptures, what is the what is the number one issue? It's idolatry, it's worshiping other gods and yielding ourselves to other the the gods of other thinking. That's a hard thing to say, but when we are accepting a worldly premise or a worldly approach, and we're using it and trying to attach Jesus to it, yeah, it's like setting up an altar and putting a bail god next to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:03

That's my view.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

It's interesting.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

And I believe that's that's kind of what's happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:06

Yeah, we did all these things in your name, but I never knew you. That's uh it's uh I know that's exactly right. Well, man, I I give you a ton of credit because it's not easy. Um it's not easy to step into these kind of spaces and conversations, but I give you a lot of credit for for doing it. Um Thanks for encouraging in it, actually.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:24

Well, no, and I'll you've been a big encouragement in that.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:27

Well, I'll continue to pray for you because I think that you're you're you're speaking words that the Holy Spirit's gonna clearly come out of your mouth, and I think he will convict hearts. Now the question will be whether or not people respond um to the pull that the Spirit has on their life to go play their part in it. But um man, like I said, the the way that you describe it and the fact that it's already been done, it's just such an interesting concept. It's so simple, like you said, but so profound. It's already done for you. It's over. You don't have to keep living in this. Well, thank you for sharing all that. Oh, please. All right, I'm shifting to gears again. Okay. Um I've got a chance, had a chance to meet your wife. Yes. I know that you guys have been. How long has it been now? How many years? 39 years next month. So you're coming up on 40. Man, that's pretty crazy. So, what's been the secret to long and successful marriage with her?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:28

Uh you probably ought to ask her because she's the one that's had to show the most grace. Um it's funny, you know. I I told you about uh the guy who married us, John Alfred he married us. Yep. John said something to us earlier on, and I and I felt like two things. He said two things. One thing he said was listen, Jeff and Karen, you are going to have sparks in your marriage. Just make sure they're welding sparks. That's good. Cause fire's good in the fireplace. Yeah, it ain't good in the living room floor, yeah, right? So the sparks that you have, use them to build something. And the second thing, he prayed this over us um when we were at our at our wedding. He prayed over us and he asked God to let the product of the two of us be greater than the sum of the parts. Um I first learned about synergy that day. I didn't know what it was, I didn't know that was a name.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:26

Um, and that became kind of a life word for me over time. But he he he asked God to help the multiplication of us, not the addition of us. The product of the two of us be greater than the sum of the parts. And what that was going to mean, because we are so different, as you know. My wife and I are so different. Um and it meant that I had to become like more like her, and she had to become more like me. Yeah. And so if If I'm, you know, it's that whole thing, like what I was talking about with the change. If if I'm always trying to to drag her toward me, right, then we got a tug of war. But if we're both trying to come closer to Jesus and I'm trying to get closer to her and think like she thinks and see her how she sees, it'll make a difference. And and to be honest, um we've had some we've had some stuff in our lives. We've had some some major, major blows in our lives, some soul shakers. And I will say beyond a shadow of a doubt, it wasn't just the knowledge of those two things that Halfred Holmes, but it was the fact that we trust God. We know that Jesus loves us and that if it touches our lives, we may not like it. We may have to go through hard times, but he's dead. And that has been the truth for 39 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:58

So that that that's it. That's all I got for you, boss. That's pretty cool, though. Oh, yeah. And have a very patient wife. Very, very patient wife.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:06

All right. So here's uh here's another not a curveball, but after all these years, you preached a lot of messages. Um, you're getting ready to lead a large influential men's group tomorrow uh morning. On it's we're sitting as we sit here today, it's Holy Thursday, so tomorrow will be good Friday as you're taking us through this, heading into Easter. Um what's your favorite thing to preach on? Either either topic or passage.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:28

Yeah. Um I've got I've got a few life verses, right? That the the ones that just kind of they've shaped who I am. Second Corinthians 5 is one of the ones that shaped who I am, right? Uh and that's been a long time. Luke 4, uh call it Jesus' mission statement, where he reads Isaiah 61. Um, and we we kind of take it as his mission statement. Yeah, the Spirit of the Lord is sovereign orders on me. He's anointed me to preach good news to the poor, and we he goes through the prisoner and the and the captive and this and this give sight to the blind and bind up the brokenhearted. The part that's often missed, where he stopped reading, right? Or he he he in in Luke it says, and to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:12

Most people don't recognize that as the year Jubilee.

SPEAKER_03 1:08:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:15

And the year Jubilee was the year everything was set right. He came to declare that everything has been set right, that all debts are canceled, that people who've lost things have them restored. That became a part just of my that's a part of my life verse.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:33

And he wasn't talking about like our mortgages and our car payments, he was talking about our our sin.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:38

Yeah, our eternal death. Our eternal death. And and so even in even in uh Leviticus, where it's where it's from, it was talking about the year Jubilee, but he's talking about the spiritual truth. To take all debt, all sin, all pain, all everything, and I'm gonna take it on me, and then I'm gonna offer you the key, which is a relationship with me, and your life will be free. You are no longer what you were. And then 2 Corinthians says, you will be a new creation, the old is gone. Born again. That does not happen from a human being, and the beauty, the the reason those are two of my favorite passages is because they center on the center. None of it. All we get to do is embrace it. We don't do anything to receive it, we don't do anything or do anything to earn it, we don't do anything to make it happen. We receive it as the truth, and then he says, Now I'm giving you a message. I love you and I love you this much. And now I'm gonna send you. So if you ever get an email from me at the bottom, it says, Live loved and live sent. Because that's he he sent us, he has sent us to proclaim what he has done for all of mankind in every situation. Yeah, those are kind of my life verses. Uh the last few years I've been I've been stuck in in Joshua and Judges, right? I've been stuck there for the last few years. But uh, but again, that's just the courage, you know. And this gets back to where you start, where we started. What I see how I see myself as a leader, I I know that God has blessed me to be a leader, but I don't always have the courage that I know he has called me to have. And so I shrink sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:41

And so I've just been reminded of the fact that that was Joshua's world. Because Moses had to tell him, and God himself had to tell him three times, four times in two two verses or three verses. Listen, I'm telling you, be strong and very courageous because I'm with you. Right? So that those are those are if you if you ask me, those are my those are the ones that the Lord speaks over my life.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:08

Um, and allows me to speak over the lives of others, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:14

Well, I can tell you from a character and confidence perspective, you've got that oozing out of you, which is why people look to you as a leader. Um, your influence is felt far and wide, not just around our city, but you know, probably all around the country and even beyond. So I know that you've been massively influential in my life. So there's zero reason for you to not have any courage at this point, brother. Like just take the steps. Take the steps. But um, I I can't thank you enough for being here. I mean, it's people have gotten a little bit of a taste of the wisdom and the stuff that just kind of comes out of your pores through the results of this interview. Every breakfast, every every lunch I've ever had with you is like this.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:56

Yeah, this this is what we're like, except I I they they don't realize that that I I I pull out of you. Yeah, you do. You you are the same guy, right? I mean, you you you you you drop and it overflows out of you, right? The the the the God story in you, and I'm not just trying to just shift shift to focus, but it's the truth. You've been doing these and I've watched them. And Mark, the humility with which you do this is a is a testimony to the fact that what you put first and what you focused on. Yeah, that's good. And that and that I I just I want you to know that I'm I'm not just gassing you up. You you are a you are a leader among men. And and I'm I'm glad not just to be in relationship with you, but to learn from you.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:46

I really am. Well, what I've what I've enjoyed is uh is learning just how different God's made each one of us, the gifts that He's got. And then for for those of us that really let it go run and put it out into the community, um, where you can just kind of see the fruit of just fully embracing who God's called you to be. It's so much fun. So when I get guys on the other end of the chair that are doing that, um my hope is through this this podcast, the whole reason we're doing it, is to help inspire others who are listening to understand, okay, how has God uniquely gifted me? Where does he have me right now? What's he calling me to go do? And give them the courage to go respond to God's call by seeing people who are actually in response to it already. So I'm hoping that that's uh you you've given us a good glimpse of that here. I appreciate it, man.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:32

And look, it's it's what we're called to do. Yep. We we are called to help people. However, there are people who will hear me and it'll resonate. And there are other people who'll be like, uh-huh, okay, that's cool. And it won't resonate. Again, back to the voices. There, there's some voices that can be able to speak into a world.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:51

And I mean I know you've just got so many different, so many different groups of folks, but being on this journey together, it is it is such a cool journey uh to watch Jesus do what only he can do.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:06

He he is the center of our lives. That's right. And joining him is his mission is the point of our existence. It's the meaning of life. And so being able to know who he is and celebrate that is a powerful thing. So thank you. Thank you for doing it. Thank you for inviting me.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:23

I appreciate it, brother.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:24

Absolutely, man. Well, if you want more access to uh prior shows, uh resources, books, uh, newsletter, you can get it at markcreeps.com. But we're over and out. Thanks for being here. All right, guys. Thank you for watching the First in Focus show. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to hit like, subscribe, and then share with a friend.