First & Focused

Nanotechnology, Venture Capital, and Trusting God in the Unknown with Andy Dickson

• Mark Greaves • Season 2 • Episode 17

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What does it look like to follow God while building at the edge of innovation?

In this episode, we sit down with Andy Dickson—entrepreneur, venture builder, and leader in nanotechnology—to talk about faith, endurance, and long-term vision.

Andy shares his journey from early days at CompuServe to launching companies like SmartPaint, Nanotherm, and now leading Novara.

We dive into:

  • His faith journey and spiritual growth 
  • The challenges of pioneering new technology 
  • Lessons learned in seasons of waiting 
  • How personal trials reshaped his priorities 
  • Why faith-based relationships matter in business 
  • Where nanotechnology is heading in the future 

This is a conversation about resilience, perspective, and trusting God when the path isn’t clear.

Links

 

SPEAKER_00

And then one day uh came in, opened the door, the phone's ringing, apparently had been ringing for a long time because it was my brother who said, Dad's dead. It snapped you into perspective.

SPEAKER_01

But do you look back and think, I'm kind of glad at the perspective shift that took place because of it?

SPEAKER_00

It was six years of I was just lost. Looking back, it's easy to see this pattern now. I didn't see it and I wasn't paying attention.

SPEAKER_01

You're taking on something that has never been done before. What's the secret to the stamina? Like how have you how have you kept at it like this? Is it stubbornness or stupidity? I don't know which. Welcome to First and Focus, the podcast where faith meets leadership. I know you're gonna put me on the spot. I don't know what you're gonna ask me to say. I'm Mark Greaves, and in each episode, I sit down with business and industry leaders who put God first in their work and stay focused on building his kingdom through their calling. I could sit here and talk with you all day. Keep up the great work, brother. Lord is using you powerfully. I love you. I love watching what Jesus is doing in your life. Well, welcome to First and Focused, where we interview leaders from various industries who are putting God first through their work and staying focused on building the kingdom uh through their various callings. Today we are here with Mr. Andy Dixon. Thanks, Mark. Andy, welcome. Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah, I'm excited because uh we haven't had anybody from the tech space really uh on the show yet. We've had finance, oh yeah, we've ministry, uh all kinds of different stuff.

SPEAKER_00

But yeah, this is uh was new for me, and I have become an expert at it, but I certainly wasn't and didn't train for this. Uh so uh but here we are 20 years later.

SPEAKER_01

So we're gonna get deep into the weeds of uh nanotechnology today. Well, some some of the weeds, maybe not deep in the weeds. Right. We have to bring in the experts for that. Yeah. Well, let me rip an intro here for you so people know who we're who we're talking to here. All right, Andy Dixon, you are a seasoned entrepreneur, venture builder, and innovator at the forefront of advanced materials, materials and nanotechnology. Sorry, that was a mouthful. With more than twenty-five years of experience as a founder, operator, and investor, you've built and scaled multiple companies at the intersection of science, tech, and real world application. You're the founder and former CEO of Smart Paint, an Ohio State connected spin-out that evolved into nanotherm, pioneering carbon-based heating technologies that can be applied as ultra-thin films and coatings across industries from automotive to energy. Today you serve as CEO of Novara, a company launched in partnership with Patel to commercialize next generation heating solutions and cutting-edge nanotechnology, bringing scalable, efficient, and sustainable thermal innovation to the market. In addition to your work at tech, you are the founding partner of Carmen Ventures, an Ohio-based venture firm connected to the Ohio State University, where you invest and mentor the next generation of entrepreneurs. You are a husband of Leslie, father to Alex and Jordan, amateur silversmith, which I'm the recipient of one of those amazing amateur gifts, and a lover and follower of Jesus, which is how we met.

SPEAKER_00

That is exactly right. And frankly, it sounds a lot more exciting than it is, but I am a silversmith probably because I was not good at woodworking, and I'm an entrepreneur, I think, because I'm otherwise unemployable. So uh you're a bad employee, a bad wood?

SPEAKER_01

So that's what I should have just led with. Exactly. Here's all his his shortcomings. But hey man, you're you're able to heat silver up to a uh molten level and pour liquid silver around into any things. Which is crazy. Well, I I got my uh my script Ohio ornament, and uh it's since you gave it to me, it's gone up in value since silver prices and spiking. It's getting a lot more expensive to do this. I was gonna say, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, where do you get your silver? Uh well, I melt so far I've been melting down what I have, so I've had a preserve of it, but you can buy it from all kinds of places and then they'll ship it to you in whatever form you want.

SPEAKER_01

Is it different than like silver bars, or do you just get like is it does it come in like different kind of you can get sheets or um wire or whatever you need, but you know, I end up melting it down to roll out sheets to make the ornaments that I make.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. What do you melt it in? Uh uh Well I have a kiln and a crucible.

SPEAKER_01

So oh my gosh. Like you're yeah, you're you're knee-deep in this. Yeah. You're the modern Paul Revere. It's serious. Yeah, it's it's awesome though. I I you gotta have a hobby. All right. So before we even get into the bulkier resume and things, like whether it's you know the tech or the venture funds that you're doing, we met on a trip to Israel. Yes. So we go to the same church. Yes. So that was uh that was three years ago last month. Hard to believe. Yeah, isn't that kind of crazy? It seems like yesterday. But uh yeah, so we got to to go all around Israel and Galilee and then even up to Turkey together. And so that was our initial uh meeting. But my question for you is you know, how did you come to faith and how has your faith evolved over the years? Kind of give us the story of how that took place.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so I grew up, I thought it was pretty typical normal childhood, small town Ohio, and we attended church almost every week. Um so we went and uh and I knew the stories and I heard the stories, but I don't think there was any involvement outside of the Sunday, one hour a week on Sunday, right? And now I look back and think, oh, if you stood in the field for an hour a week, you don't become a cow. And going to church for an hour a week doesn't make you a Christian. But a lot of people that's how uh that's how it works, and that's how it was for us. Um took a during college, really didn't go to school to uh church at all. But when we had kids, we knew we had to get back and show them you know where the well was, um and decided to send them to Catholic schools here in in Columbus, um which I think was mostly so that they would know where the well would be, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And I did ask our pastor about it because we're Protestant. And he said, Look, they've been doing this for fifty years or more, they're not gonna try to convert anybody. Uh it's it's a great choice for you. Yeah. And so we did. And it turned out, you know, uh turned out well for them, prepare prepared them well for college and for now they're they're their uh jobs. Um but our daughter actually brought us to Rock City, she attended an event in Atlanta called Kairos, which they had a lot of worship music, and she came back raving about this and saying, We've got to find a church like that. And yeah, and so we went to one in Dallas called uh Gateway, and it was like Rock City, only about five times bigger. Yeah um came back to Columbus and said, Okay, let's start looking. We found um Rock City when they were at the Arlington High School. Um, pretty much fell in love with it and have gone ever since. Then I got into small groups and started leading a small group and reading the word every day, and things just transformed. It wasn't a magical moment, but it was a evolution.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

The trip to Israel, frankly, was the most transformative, impactful, uh life-changing thing we've done. Um, to walk where Jesus walked, to see things that he saw, float on the Sea of Galilee, be baptized in the Jordan River. These were amazing things that brought the whole story to life, made it all very real. And actually, when I got back, I had to reread all these stories that I knew because now I'd seen it. And same. And yeah, it just changes everything and it really deepened everything. So I think growing up, I had an acquaintance with Jesus, and now I have a relationship, I'd say, and it's getting deeper, hopefully, every day.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I love how you describe it as an evolution because it's not just uh you you know weren't paying attention at all, and all of a sudden there's just like a clear spark moment.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um I hear those stories, but I've never had that happen. Which I think those stories are incredible, and that's what gets reported a lot. But I think that also just as influential, Jesus has a different path for all of us, but for those of us who knew about him in our heads, and then versus you know, feeling the relationship in our hearts, a lot of times there is like a there's a journey that needs to connect those dots at some at some point. Yep. It sounds like that's what you experience.

SPEAKER_00

It is, and it's still happening, right? It the more you know, the more you know you don't know, and yeah, the more there is to learn.

SPEAKER_01

So it's also cool that your uh your daughter is the one that kind of was one of the ones that provided the spark that that really took a turn for this.

SPEAKER_00

Watch her worship compared to watching her endure the hour-long Presbyterian service.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Where you're not allowed to clap, by the way. They won't let you do that. Um it's it's no noise. No noise. Yeah. Uh they're the frozen chosen, which I I always like to. That's pretty funny, actually.

SPEAKER_01

But um Yeah, every denomination has their own little like stereotypes of like different things like that for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So, anyhow, we're we're very glad we've landed where we did and and and love working there and leading a small group there.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, and I see you up on stage uh doing the film crew, which is awesome.

SPEAKER_00

Tech nerds. Uh so we do that. So but that the purpose of that though is to bring it to others, right? The people in prison and the people in nursing homes and the ones who can't make it to church, yeah. They're gonna still still get the message, and we know it has an impact.

SPEAKER_01

So how many prisons are being broadcast now? It's like four or five hundred or even more than that.

SPEAKER_00

There's a lot of people getting the getting that message because we uh put it out on TV.

SPEAKER_01

That's pretty cool. So all right. Well, I want to pivot back into early career Andy before we get into some of these like you know more recent things. But um you started off at CompuServe, which for a lot of people listening, they're not even gonna know what CompuServe is. Yeah, I'm not sure when CompuServe went out of business, but late 90s, I think. Okay. But they were they were like a pioneer, they were on the forefront of technology, and that that took you down to Texas. Yes.

SPEAKER_00

So you know the technology was easy for me. I started writing, I was programming computers at 13, got a degree in CIS or computer science from Ohio State, got a job at CompuServe, and we didn't realize it, but we were all entrepreneurs in a big build in a big company, right? You were changing the world. Everything you can do on the internet, you could do on CompuServe first. So whether it was shopping or airline tickets or brokerage accounts or whatever, it was online there. And um I was I loved it. It was a fascinating time. And um, so yeah, that took us to Texas at a startup during the first internet bubble. So white hot economy. Everything's going public, everybody's cashing up stock options, right? Yeah. And we were gonna go dive into that ride, and it was very exciting. And I bought it hook, line, and sinker. I was working 16 hours a day. Uh you married at this point? Yeah, we were married. I was married and and we moved uh in '97, I think it was. Um, and uh I believed that's the path, right? We're gonna put in the time, cash out the options, buy the ranch, get a boat on Lake Travis, it was all gonna be fun.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And then one day uh we we had been out looking for a home, and um I came in, opened the door, the phone's ringing. Nobody had cell phones back then, and uh it apparently had been ringing for a long time because it was my brother who said dad's dead. And uh I didn't even understand what he just said. Turns out he had been on, he teed off on number nine, did not make it to the second shot. So uh a big life-altering event, right? And snaps you into perspective. So we buried dad in Ohio, and I went back to Austin and sat down with our CEO, and I said, Look, I cannot do weekends anymore. I'm gonna be home for dinner with my wife from now on. And he said to me, he goes, If you don't come in on Saturday, then don't bother to come in Sunday, you're fired. And I feel like we don't see the same world, so um, I'm out. And I had my summer of severance, which um it's good. I mean, I you know improved my golf game uh that summer. Uh but that was the end of the dream in in Austin and the dream of the IPO and all those things that everybody else was riding.

SPEAKER_01

So Yeah, and and at that point you're a young man and you have a perspective shift very early in life. Yes. Um man, are you are looking back now? Obviously you wouldn't think to yourself, man, I'm glad my dad died that day. But do you look back and think, I'm kind of glad at the perspective shift that took place because of it? Like it how do you view that now?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I am grateful for it. I uh wish it had happened when he was fifty or ninety-one, not fifty-one.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

But you know, I've also seen family members uh slowly decline or die of cancer. Um he didn't have to do that or go through it. I didn't get to say goodbye, but it it uh it ultimately was a very good perspective shift for Yeah, the lesson it taught you. Yeah. Uh the priorities for your life. And I believe he's been, you know, one of the guardian angels ever since.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Helping and guiding.

SPEAKER_01

So the reason I I like to unpack these journeys is because when you move back to Ohio from Texas, it's not like you just jump right into what you're doing now and everything's just up under the right. There was this waiting period where you were at Ohio State. Yeah. Well, as a mentor at Ohio State, I had to Tell us about that.

SPEAKER_00

So that was actually the darkest uh period and I would call it the worst suffering I went through until well later, but I was lost. I took a job at a I just missed the wave of the internet, right? The dream's over, find another dream. Yep. Took a job at an incubator to try to find another startup. And in the meantime, I also took uh a position as a mentor at Ohio State. I thought maybe they'll bring me some technology that'll be interesting, and I'll find the next great thing there. And boy, it was six years of I was just lost, uh, not finding good technology. Um I was drinking too much because I was filling in the gap, right? Uh a lot of men do this. Yep. And um so dark period, right? Dark period. And finally one day they bring out this nanotechnology, this multi-wall carbon nanotube. And I I watched as these two students took this powdery substance, it looks like the toner cartridge uh toner in your in your printer, and they made a sheet of it and it heated up with a small voltage. And it was like, uh, you know, that's it. I'm gonna start a company with that. Um it'll change the world, I can be a part of that, found my thing. So I started a company uh back then called Nanofabrics. Uh it has evolved obviously a few times over the time over the years, but um yeah, it was not a uh a particularly good time, but it did lead to where I am, and I didn't recognize it at the time, but uh God was using that period to sort of begin forming character.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Um Paul talks about that chain of uh suffering that produces character that produces well you en you endure that you have the suffering which gives you the endurance, which character, which then leads to hope. And looking back, it's easy to see this pattern now. I didn't see it then, I wasn't paying attention.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, I mean even Paul I just recently learned had had to go through a period of waiting. Like when he went back to Tarsus, he was there was ten years he basically lived in a cave before he went out into his ministry. It was it was a it was a decade between you know his conversion on the road to Damascus and when he actually went out and started doing like real ministry. It wasn't just like the next day. What what do you think that that period of waiting? Why do you think God orchestrated that?

SPEAKER_00

You know, I don't know, but um I did learn a lot, learned a lot about myself as well in that time. But the other thing that drove part of the fear was this fear of disappointing my wife and letting down, you know, failing for the family, not being a success. Every man, well, I believe that women like to see their men on a white horse, right? But we all fall off. Everybody does. And I was so afraid, I was petrified that I would let them down, that you know, I wouldn't ever find that startup and ever find the success and the things that we all chase. Um and uh that was what I think led to some of the the other issues. Um now because of it, I've been able to help other people. Uh I even have family members and and and friends that I've been able to help talk about their addiction in different ways. So I'm I'm in that regard, I'm glad it happened.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. No, it's really cool. Well, I think that uh uh what you're doing now, you're taking on something that has never been done before. Um pioneering anything new is is tough. I mean, especially in like the technology space. Okay, when you're when you're new to market with some new whether it's a material or uh an idea, whatever it is, it's not just immediately adopted. You've been at it for a while. Yeah, this has been 20 years. Um So what's the how what's the secret to the stamina? Like how have you how have you kept at it like this?

SPEAKER_00

Um I think it comes down to well, there's some uh notion of uh whether is it stubbornness or stupidity, I don't know which. But um this is part of the endurance, right? We are supposed to run the race that was set before us.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And uh we don't know how long the race is, we don't know the course we're gonna take, but our job is to just run that race. I wildly underestimated how long it would take for this to be adopted as a as a usable technology. What did you think it would be? A few years, right? Yeah. Uh you you startups back then were, you know, three to four years, you have an IPO and great. Well that was software, not hard tech. So um what it comes down to is nobody wants to be the first zebra at the watering hole, right? They all look around saying, Who else is doing this? Nobody else was doing it. And in fact, the uh a lot of people equated nanomaterials with uh asbestos. They thought it was gonna be uh carcinogen, they thought it was health issues. So we had to get through that. Um but now the other fear that people have is fear of missing out. So when we do get that first one to the first domino to fall, I think it'll be uh you know the race is on, uh it'll accelerate from there. Yeah. And we're close. We're we're talking with a lot of um tier one providers uh for automotive, we're talking with uh we're doing a project out at Ohio State for snow melt and and um radiant heat. And I've been using it in my house, of course, for years. So I don't shovel snow and and we have uh several of the floors are heated that way. So uh I know it works, it's just a matter of convincing others that it works.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the uh the funny thing is we were talking right before we started recording. I I feel like it's gonna be one of those overnight success stories where all of a sudden it's everywhere and everybody's got to have it and everybody knows about it. Um and you'll be like, yeah, I've been I've been talking about this for 25 years trying to get people to adopt it. What's what's been the uh the hardest part? Is it is it the health concerns or is it just the cost initially? It was the cost.

SPEAKER_00

So when I started, a gram of this material was five hundred dollars. So five hundred dollars a gram. That's not a commercially viable price. Now it's about eight cents. Oh wow. So it's come down a lot at time. And that means I can make things and we can we're not doing it in roll-to-roll form, so it's a very thin film. And you can make a million feet of it in uh you know, a handful of hours, not uh so can you describe what it is for the listeners?

SPEAKER_01

Because I the when they hear nanotechnology and when you hear you can heat things up, like what is it?

SPEAKER_00

It's really what I call a functional pigment. So imagine that you can put pigment in a paint and make it any color. This is a pigment you can put into a coating and it may give it new new function. So in this case it's heat or static or uh electromagnetic you know, shielding, those kinds of things. Um we're now putting it in in this film format, which means I'm making what I call heat tape. And anywhere you can put this tape, you can generate heat. And ultimately we want it on airplane wings and and uh places like that. Um and that's what this merger with Patel has been really helpful at, right? Uh they can bring clients to us that we would never get on our own, and they have resources, fast resources, that we won't ever get. So yeah, they're they're bringing us aerospace engineering and and NASA uh type uh opportunities that we were just weren't gonna get.

SPEAKER_01

So can you describe a couple of like functionalities just so people can get an idea? You mentioned airplane wings. Like what what are what are some of the practical applications that it would be used for?

SPEAKER_00

So we're gonna put it into electric vehicles in passenger heating, in battery heating. Um uh in the old world, they're using this what they call microme wire that's just stitched into the car seat and uh it heats up. That's that technology was patented in 1905. Nothing has changed it.

SPEAKER_01

That's what the heated seats are in the car right now. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And so uh we have this uh very thin film, and it becomes more important in things like drones and EVs because it's so lightweight, uh, it heats up instantly and with very little voltage. So we're able to generate the heat we need with about half the power that that it currently takes. Um so in a Tesla, for example, you turn on the heater, it's 3,000 watts of power. When we were using our uh films to heat the entire car, it was about a third of that. And if you're only heating the driver, which is most of the time, it's about 10%. Wow. So now we're using 10% of the power to do the job that you know, which means the cars go farther.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but the battery life lasts way, way longer. Right. Yeah, so why isn't this everywhere already? Like that's the that's the question I have, is like now that it's been the cost has been reduced.

SPEAKER_00

It really I think came down to manufacturability. Right. And so now that we can make it in at great scale, uh that should happen much faster.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So we've partnered with a company that has been doing films for 25 years. Some of their films are already on cars. Uh so some of those hurdles are are now getting a lot shorter.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so the lid's about to come off a little bit. Yeah. You've got to be excited for that. I am.

SPEAKER_00

I think we're still in the hope phase, but we're looking at the harvest, so it's coming.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So d this isn't on our script, but like let's say that this all comes to fruition. Um is it hard for you to imagine like what's next in life because you've been trying to tackle this problem now for so long? Like what how do you have vision for the future?

SPEAKER_00

Well You know, it well we'll get to that other story later, but I am comfortable, number one, I used to think I was keeping a scoreboard for myself, right? I had to have a certain amount of money in my bank account by a certain age. And I've been uh that perspective is now gone. I know is all for the kingdom. So I want to end this world with nothing left in the bank and give as much as I can. So every day when I get up, I'm on mission. I am glad of that because I always thought, and what I was taught in the Presbyterian Church was if you want to be a missionary, you've got to go to a jungle somewhere and build a house, or you've got to go to Africa and go well. I didn't want to do that at all. And recently I've been in this men's group for a while now, and and uh he's been very good at convincing us that no, every day at work is your mission.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh when you get up and do this work, that's what's for. And so I know now that what I'm doing is for the kingdom.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Which, by the way, all the anxiety kind of goes away because now you're not carrying the weight of the outcome, you're just carrying the weight of the endurance. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Just get up and do what I can and keep just keep going. That's a really good perspective. Because God owns the outcomes, but uh to get up and go do what we're called, that's what he says, pick up our cross daily and follow him. Yeah, the endurance part is up to us. The outcome, it is up to him. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and we can't do it without him, and he won't do it without us, so we're working together here to change the world.

SPEAKER_01

Wow, that's really cool. That's really good perspective. All right, so I'm gonna shift gears because somewhere in the mix of this, um Leslie is when you know your wife, she comes down with a a pretty difficult, you know, situation medically. Um cancer combined with um another pretty rare condition, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yes, very.

SPEAKER_01

And uh I know obviously, you know, whether it was your your father dying earlier in your career, and then your wife all of a sudden now it's looking like her life maybe hangs in the balance. That does a lot to shift priorities, I'm sure. So take us through that, and then what does that what did that teach you about your marriage and the way that you prioritize?

SPEAKER_00

So, yeah, Leslie was diagnosed with amyloidosis, which uh and multiple myeloma. And very rare condition, but and and when and when it happened, I couldn't even pronounce that word. I didn't know what it was. What was the word again? Amyloidosis. Amyloidosis. It's a defective protein that's folded and it is sticky and it attaches to Why don't they just name it something we can say?

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_00

Well then they couldn't get paid what they do. Yeah, that's true. So uh it turns out that the only way to fix that is through a bone marrow transplant. And there were two specialists in the country at the time, one in Scottsdale, Arizona, and thankfully one at the James at Ohio State. So we had world-class care available five minutes from our house, and we began that process. And so uh ultimately what she had to donate it was an autologous bone marrow transplant. Um, but the chemo completely wipes out your immune system. So she has a zero immune system for a period of time. We're at the James for about two weeks, uh, getting that whole process done. And then the recovery was about a year. Um and thankfully, by God's grace, she's in remission. Uh, in fact, we're gonna celebrate her fourth birthday here coming up. Bone marrow transplant uh people get a second birthday, and so I've been joking with her since she's catching up to me. In fact, this year she'll pass me in in age. Um, she's been doubling up now for exactly. So she doesn't see it that way. But um during that time, I was actually reading Revelation for Comfort. Uh and and we Oh, that's a nice comforting book. There you go. And I was wishing, honestly wishing that I could have cancer for her. I uh so when you get to a point in life when you're reading Revelation for Comfort and you're wishing you could get cancer, then you're not so worried about your cap table and your Series A and your you know what didn't get done at work. Yeah, what investor has what to say?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's uh things, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So in fact, I was um we were looking for a replacement for me at at uh Novara. We were looking for a new CEO so I could just be at home. Uh ultimately didn't need that. But you know, it does shift your perspective a hundred percent and reminded me again. I don't I didn't mention it the first time, but you know, James tell tells us your life is a mist.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh and there's my second reminder now of that same uh uh concept. And I know it's true. And uh so these reminders help shape your your character. And and in this case, I knew at this point God was absolutely doing this uh and carrying us through that storm.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. How long have you guys been buried? Thirty three years, thirty-three or three. Have you gotten closer because of it? Oh much, yeah. I'm sure.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

In fact, that was one of the things we got to be baptized together in the Jordan River, and that was uh a pretty special uh moment. It just felt different than than any other uh other time. So yeah, it it does bring us it brought us closer together. Um and you know I just can't imagine uh any other outcome. So I'm so glad that that uh we had world-class care and I'm glad that God gave them the the smarts, the wherewithal, to be able to do what they do.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Can you imagine they take your bone marrow out, uh, fix it and put it back in?

SPEAKER_01

No, it's pretty incredible, actually.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's it's gotta be interesting being you in the space where you're like on the on the cusp of innovation and you've been working with Carmen Ventures for so long and seen you know these different ideas and things coming, and then also get to experience it now, like in your in your wife's life, like, hey, look at how technology, because of its advancements, was able to keep her alive. Yeah. It has to give you a little bit a little bit of motivation of like, hey, these new things are worth spending time in pursuing.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. They're gonna they're gonna change the world and they're gonna they're already changing the way we treat diseases and and and treat uh these kinds of conditions.

SPEAKER_01

So I'm I'm very uh excited by it all. So speaking of Novara, um I want to pivot into this because uh you've told me the stories like you're you're investors now. A lot of the the folks that have been key and critical in like the advancement and the investment of this, they weren't connected to you because of a pitch deck or because of you know some potential financial return. Like you actually identified at the heart level through faith first. Yeah. Can you kind of tell us that story and like what why is that relationship different?

SPEAKER_00

So, yeah, actually the most obvious example of that came after we had the Israel trip. Uh, a couple years later, they had we Rock City offered a trip to Greece where you could go in the footsteps of Paul.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And uh and knowing what the Israel trip meant to us, uh, I jumped right at it and said, We're going. And um, so we did. We went to Greece and we were on this long bus ride from Philippi down to Corinth, I think it was. And uh I just went back to the back of the bus and started talking to a couple we had just met. And she says to me, Uh, when we get back to Columbus, I want to come by your office and see what you do. And I'm like, Okay, that's fine. Sounds great. Um, she did. You're probably thinking, like, why? Yeah. Why do you want to come watch me make uh make heat tape? Yeah, exactly. So she did that, and turns out not so much later, she became the lead investor in the company. Wow. Um, and that's not a LinkedIn post or a pitch that I made or some PowerPoint deck. That's just God putting connecting the dots, and uh I see that happening all the time now uh as well. He's making connections happen that otherwise would never have happened.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it doesn't surprise me anymore. And in fact, talking about these investors coming to us, I cannot tell you. I'm I meant to go back and look so I'd have a number, but I don't have the number. How many times in this journey has our bank account at the company been under a hundred dollars when an investor comes forward or uh a partner pays us? You know, there were probably a dozen times that has happened. And always right when we need it, the amount we need to keep going.

SPEAKER_01

It's pretty unbelievable. It really is. It seems to be a recurring theme um on this show that that happens a lot. I've asked this question to uh uh several different people. Do you ever wish that God would give you a little bit more runway where you could see a little farther down there? Because he does seem to show up when you need him, and he does seem to provide exactly what's needed for the next step. He just doesn't provide for 15 steps in a row. But you've got to take the step, right?

SPEAKER_00

You've got to take the leap. And he gives it's kind of like uh you can see as far as your headlights will light up. Yeah. That's kind of it. He's the lamp to our feet. Um it doesn't go beyond that, and it certainly didn't go by my timeline.

SPEAKER_01

I I've never really I I know that verse. He's a lamp for my feet my feet and a light for my path. Um I just never really thought about like my lamp for my feet, doesn't I it's not like I have brights on, like when I'm driving in my car where I can see a mile ahead. I it's the lamp for your feet is for your next couple steps. Yeah. That's really good. Well, what I think is interesting about the investor story is if it's me, they got to know you first for who you are on that grease trip. Yeah. So before they really understood exactly what the product was, or before they saw it in action, they knew you, you know, the founder and the leader. And arguably, I think that's maybe even more important than the technology itself. I think it is.

SPEAKER_00

You have to have a relationship. And in fact, one of my investors, he invests in dozens of startups. And he called me one day and he said, Why these other CEOs, they'll call me in pure chaos. The the business is in chaos, they're frantic and they're asking me to write another check so they can make payroll. And he goes, Every time I call you, you're very calm.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it's like I told him, I said, because I know I'm not in control. I'm just here to, you know, answer the phone and keep things moving. So he's observed that, which means something has happened. Um I the you know, I said the anxiety has melted away, and I'm quite sure that's the reason.

SPEAKER_01

So Yeah. So this isn't on our script, but when you think about like the product of your work, how do you quantify it now? Because you mentioned I'm working for the kingdom. All of this is for the kingdom. Do you have things in mind that you're trying to do for the kingdom?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, 100%. I oddly enough have this goal now to we believe that there's multiple exits in this business in architecture, in mobility, in aerospace, in medical, military. And I believe that we can give $100 million to the kingdom while I'm alive. Um, maybe more. And the reason I love that goal is because it's completely unattainable on my own. Yeah. And my financial planner laughed out loud when I told him. So that's when I knew, okay, we've got something here that only God can do.

SPEAKER_01

See, what's crazy is uh when you when you see the opposition and when you see people looking at it in terms of just what's possible from an earthly perspective, that's where you get excited because you're like, well, we'll just wait to see what God provides. Exactly. Five loaves and two fish fed how many people.

SPEAKER_00

Exactly. And I I've even said out loud now, I wonder how much more we can give.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I wonder if that isn't a big enough goal.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um so we're doing all the things you have to do technically to get that done, set up the donor-advised funds and things like that, and I've got great people helping.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh, but we're we're ready to go.

SPEAKER_01

It's just inspiring to hear because work matters, it's important. Changing the world and creating something that's better than what exists matters. And God reveals ways for us to do that. But the motive and the mission behind why we're doing it, that's what's really important. Yeah. Because how empty and hollow would it be if you wanted to make a hundred million dollars just to have a hundred million dollars just to die and leave a hundred million dollars behind? It was um that doesn't sound near as exciting than I want to create this mechanism to go fuel something that God wants to do in the world in other people's lives. Yeah, and then I'll go see those ripple effects in heaven someday.

SPEAKER_00

I think both things I'm working on and my hobby are all things that will outlive me. So I want Carmen Ventures to be funding entrepreneurs and buckeyes well after I'm gone.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

I believe that this technology, of course, will be changing the way the world works, uh, how we build buildings, how we make and use heat, uh, the medical things we've already talked about. That's gonna live well beyond me. And the silver ornaments, well, you know, they'll be out uh on somebody's tree a hundred years from now and I'll I'll be long gone.

SPEAKER_01

But yeah, they'll be on somebody's free for yeah, for sure. Yeah. So that's a really cool perspective. Okay. That's really good. All right. So I had these three words. When I think about Andy Dixon, trust, surrender, and endurance. Um, so that's that's literally me knowing you, I've watched you have to trust God. We just went through it. I mean, you're whether it's the bank account being under 100 bucks and having to trust that he's there for the next steps, um, the surrender of just, hey, I don't know where this is going. Um, you've you've had to sit by your wife's bedside totally unaware of what would happen if she would live or die. Um, and then the endurance of just like this long endurance. Do you think that that accurately describes you, or how would you describe yourself?

SPEAKER_00

Actually, uh those are good words. I think surrender is the key word. It un kind of unlocks the other two. Um when you can surrender fully, then you can trust God and it gives you the power to endure the other the other storms that that happen. You know, it's funny. I when when when my dad died, I used to have these dreams where I would be at the tombstone and I'd pick up a a phone, you know, a corded phone. That was common then. And you just dated yourself there. It made sense, right? Because you're talking to a distant. Did it have a rotary dial or not? No, no, dial, just the just the speaking part. And I would talk to him, and this happened for six months or maybe a year after uh afterwards, and I did not have that dream for a long, long time. And then recently, not not all that recently, a few years ago, it happened again, and he said two words. Finish surrendering. And I'm like, okay. I mean, that was it. And I knew uh just can you still hear his voice? Oh, yeah. Like what he sounded like. Yeah. And and you don't I didn't necessarily see him, but I feel the presence and and the voice is crystal clear.

SPEAKER_01

So neither in dreams. Uh-huh. Man, I it's it's interesting that you're bringing up dreams just because I I had a conversation the other day. We I think that we discount things that happen in our subconscious. They didn't seem to do that in the Bible. Like when I read my Bible, there's a lot of dreams that uh they use for direction and to make decisions.

SPEAKER_00

I'm lucky. I don't have, you know, I've I've talked to people who say that they they talk to God or they hear from God, and I believe that they do. I've never had that, but I do have these 4 a.m.

unknown

moments.

SPEAKER_00

It's always at 4 o'clock in the morning, and it's either what I'm working on, what product I'm trying to figure out, how to design some new thing, uh, or who should I connect with that day? And and I'll get a name or uh an idea at four, and if I remember it, when I get to work, I'll be able to implement it right. So that happens all the time. Uh and these dreams I'm sure I didn't keep track, but I'm sure when I was talking to dad, it was probably around that same time.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that's crazy. And do you wake up and remember them? Mostly, yeah. Wow, that's pretty cool. That's really, really cool. All right. So when you look at the future, uh obviously this is going to be in our everyday lives. Like where where do you see the nanomaterial at play for the average person?

SPEAKER_00

It'll be invisible to them. It'll just be in the in the walls, in the floor, and all around them, in the materials that we use to build the world. Um, they'll be lighter, stronger, just better uh materials. And you'll never really know, I don't think, why things work so much better than they used to. Uh but they will.

SPEAKER_01

Do you see yourself doing this for the rest of your life?

SPEAKER_00

Well, you know, I'd like to be there's an a lifetime of opportunity here, but if either I decide or somebody at the board decides for me that I'm not the right guy to lead Navara, I'll be happy to move on and I'll just go run with Carmen and find and fund the next entrepreneurs. That is so energizing to me to be able to hear a new pitch about a new company or a new idea, and then get dig into the details of that, and then help them take those steps and hopefully help them avoid some of the uh pitfalls that I went through and build redemptive businesses. Uh and the real key, by the way, for Carmen is not the money we put in, it's the network. We're gonna leverage the alumni of Ohio State. We've got 630,000 living alumni around the world. And what I want to do is leverage that network so that they can get involved in the companies, mentor the companies, serve on the board, and make connections that otherwise wouldn't be and that's much more valuable than the money we give them.

SPEAKER_01

That's really cool. So I want to pivot into this question. I know what you want to do for the kingdom through your work with the proceeds. Is there anything that you've been able to do incorporating your faith while at work?

SPEAKER_00

To the extent I mean, I've been told not to put Bible verses in our business plan. I've been told not to put it on our website. I we do start every week with our, you know, what are you the gratitudes and that sort of thing. What's that about? Just having everybody go around the table and tell what it is they're grateful for. So we can start the week with that frame of mind, frame of reference. I don't think we're quite as uh sophisticated as you are at tithe, where almost every meeting probably starts in prayer.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, but the the gratitude is a good start because uh you who are you grateful to for what? You can be grateful for something, but there has to ultimately be a source that's pr the provider. So even if it's not a direct connection, that that's an indirect connection that you're making with what you're allowed to do. Right. I think that's good.

SPEAKER_00

And then uh we do start the board meetings with prayer, uh, so that at least for a few minutes we settle the chaos and and set the stage for you know what we hope is a productive session.

SPEAKER_01

You start your board meetings with prayer? Has that always been that way? No. Is everybody a Christian? Yeah. Okay. Well that's that's good. It helps.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that helps quite a bit. Yeah, it does. Um so I think it's the right way to frame that setting. And I also probably do it so that when they're in an executive session and I'm not in the room, I get to keep my job at the end.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah, that's but seriously though, starting with prayer is I feel like it seems like it's low-hanging fruit, but it's not. I mean, why not have a direct line to God and ask him to to guide the session and guide our thoughts and our directions and the things that we're gonna aim to do for the people we serve? Yeah. Just makes sense. Yeah, I think and we start all you know, every meeting you have with our financial planner, we start with prayer uh because we want to be making those decisions with more guidance than we what would you say to the like there's there's a lot of entrepreneurs and business guys who are just afraid to to take those small steps? I think they want to. I think there's a lot of people who want to, because Jesus is alive and well in their heart, but for whatever reason, they're just embarrassed, and there's still there's still some attachment to other people's opinions about it. So what would you say to somebody who maybe wants to live their faith more actively but just is starting to baby step into it?

SPEAKER_00

That's an interesting question because I know when I started my career at CompuServe, you did not talk about politics and you did not talk about religion. These were just two topics that were verboten, right? Now both of them seem to be almost everywhere, and uh it's kind of sad that politics is everywhere, but at least we're able to push back with our faith. And um you know, I was thinking about leaders today who are in that boat and thinking about what happened in Austin and what happened with Leslie. And I I was remembering when I grew up, my grandfather r ran the cemetery in the small town where I grew up, and so I would take walks with my grandmother in the cemetery, and you know, seven or eight years old, and I'm trying to do the math on a on a tombstone, and I'm like, okay, 1867 minus 19 or 1912 minus 1867. Okay, the guy's 46 years old or whatever. And she would say, Well, instead of trying to do all the math on these numbers, why don't you just imagine the dash? Imagine what's in that dash between the numbers. And so I know now you don't get to know that last number on the stone, and you don't get to know the last number in your bank account. But whether you are paying attention or not, you're becoming that dash. Yeah. And you need to be intentional about it and you need to uh consider that. Even if it's it sounds a little bit morbid, you don't write your own obituary or things like that, but at least consider what you're doing while you're performing that dash.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um and you know, guys who uh get caught up in that, and sometimes it's because they want to be distracted from all the things that are going on. But at least in the chaos of this world, we can push back. And and you'll see it a lot in sports now, you'll see it a lot in in culture now, and I think there's something going on in this city. You see it at our church. Yeah, for sure. Um thousands now are standing up on a on a regular Sunday weekly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And even the younger crowds, so we have this youth night, or not youth night, but young adult night, 18 to 25, right? On a Friday night, we'll get 700 people in church. When I was at that age, you know, that's not what I was doing on Fridays, yeah. No, it was it was High Street or or you know, something along those lines.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm so encouraged by that and encouraged by what I see in the young, in the younger crowd, that you know, there is still hope. And by the way, I think Part of that is they're tired of being lied to. They they know they're being lied to and they're pushing back on that. So that's great.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think there's uh there's a there's a lot more people just seeking truth. And like is there's something they need some sort of a bedrock that hasn't changed that they know that they can count on.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And they're yeah, they're turning back to the Lord. So it's a good segue because you've got two young adult children. And the the question I I have two kids and they're not adults yet. Um starting to try to act like one every now and then, which is good. We've we're getting there. Uh, what's it like seeing your kids now out in the world making their mark on the world?

SPEAKER_00

That is actually my favorite topic in the whole world. I I know now that if the company went away and I ended up in a coma, I did my job because they are remarkable. We're blessed with super smart uh people who my daughter just started her work as a PA at Ohio Health in the bone marrow transplant group. Oh, wow, really? So she'll be helping patients go through exactly what her mom did. What a full circle thing there. That's um did she choose that because of oh wow, that's awesome. Originally she was going to be a vet and then decided, you know what, seeing what Leslie went through, uh, I think I can apply this talent in a better way. So she's doing that, started this week. Uh my son graduated Vanderbilt and then went to Manhattan to work at BlackRock. Um I don't know how he tolerates Manhattan, but I know he's doing what what he's supposed to be doing right now, and he's making a difference. And uh hopefully he'll find his way back to uh the Midwest.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh at some point. But you know, we'll see, we'll see where that lands.

SPEAKER_01

It's just still good. Yeah, it's it's gotta be rewarding, see, and like all the little lessons and all the the compounding years of work that you tried to do to like instill something in them, they're using it.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it's gotta be uh and I hope that one of the lessons was I was home for dinner. You know, be home for dinner, be home on the weekends.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because too many people I think take the I've got this work to do. That work will be there in the morning. It'll be there on Monday.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

By the way, uh not related to this topic, but uh one of the things I've been doing lately is uh in form of Sabbath. So the phone goes in the drawer at six o'clock on a Friday night.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Can't touch it again for twenty-four hours or more. Uh been so it it changes everything. And I look forward to Fridays now because I know I can get rid of the phone. I also don't touch it for an hour after I wake up. So those are two little things that I think are are great little practices that that uh you know take us back. Give us give some margin for God. You have to create that margin.

SPEAKER_01

Has anybody ever gotten on you about that?

SPEAKER_00

Like where they try to get a hold of you and they can't and it's no. Um I do I will turn it on if Leslie's leaving the house and I, you know, if she needs to call me or something happens, I want the phone to on, but I won't look at it. You're not gonna go over there, but yeah, you turn the ringer on just in case. No, but nobody else. If it's work, it'll be there when I get to it. Yeah. Uh so I think it's great practice and I want to keep it.

SPEAKER_01

It's good perspective in like the the never-ending world we live in now where it seems like we it we have to be hyper focused on it all the time. We're on the treadmill nonstop. Nonstop. We can turn it on. We are still in control of that. Yeah. Uh but for some reason a lot of us have convinced ourselves that we're not. Are you gonna do it now? Yeah. Oh I would think I yes, I would want to. Uh I'll tell you what, I'll try it this week. All right. I'll try it tomorrow. I'll try it tomorrow night. Or do like four hours at a time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Try four and then work your way up.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, a whole day. It's it I think I feel like depending on the industry that you're in, it can feel like it's impossible. So for people that are in sales and things like that, like when you have customers that call, the problem is letting go. It's like you have to let go of a sale in order to achieve that Sabbath because customers are pretty impatient. So if you don't answer, they will go to a competitor or they'll go to somebody else because they want their answer now. Like when they're in that mode to make a decision, regardless of what it is, they're gonna go find a place to make that decision through and get the information that they want. Yeah, we've been conditioned, I think, to expect instant gratification. So you you have to be okay with knowing that, like, hey, there is a trade here. I'm trading potential business for my peace of mind and my soul and to get my spirit right with God. In my mind, it's a good trade. So I'm like, I'm convincing myself right now I should probably do it. Uh so I'll I'll probably be taking you up on that. Well, good. Yeah. I at least I think so.

SPEAKER_00

Um so I was gonna ask you, am I allowed to ask you questions? Yeah, you can fire away. So I think you and I sort of got serious about tithing roughly at the same time when our uh our pastor challenged us on it, text me in this. But you went from zero to like tenth gear. All of it. Yeah. Right up front. What we're serious about it now, but we're not tying the foundation. Yeah. What um do you think drove that? Was it the competitiveness in you? Was it?

SPEAKER_01

No, I think uh honestly, I think God gets to us all in different ways. And uh one of the things that clicked in my heart about it was I I was coming from a place where I had worked really hard to climb a ladder and I had achieved what I thought I wanted, and it was it was feeling empty. I wasn't able to connect my work to anything ultimately fulfilling, at least not in my mind at that time. And I was in the in the process of making the transition to where I'm at now, where I'm I'm pursuing what I think God has called me to um through Tithe Lending, Tithe Foundation, some other different avenues and things like this podcast, like helping other business folks and and really even nonprofit ministry folks connect their gifts and where God has them to a real ultimate purpose of serving God and building the kingdom. So my work and and money were two things that I just wasn't feeling fulfilled in anymore. So when I heard this message on tithing for the first time and really unlocked what it is, not only is it transferring treasure to heaven, it's creating this repeatable mechanism and rhythm in my life where every paycheck, every bonus, every you know, PL, every quarterly earning, whatever, whatever it is where there's any kind of an increase, that moment is directly transferred into a rhythm and a repeatable mechanism that is building God's kingdom. I'm in partnership with God in this work. So it wasn't just about, it's not giving, tithing is returning. So it clicked in my heart that, like, wow, God has been my source this whole time, he's been my provider this whole time. This is his return on investment in my life. And we get to do this together all the time. Now this is just like a product of what I'm I'm doing on a weekly and bi-weekly basis. Man, that's it, it changed the way that I feel about working. So it gave me like new life and new hope. Yeah. Because now it has a different purpose, right? Right. So I realized it's not it the money is irrelevant. Yeah. It fuels what we're doing. It comes in handy here on earth, right? Right. But um the dollars are irrelevant. He wants to be in partnership with me not just once and not just every now and then, but on a regular and repeatable basis. And the tithe built that into my life. So that's where it became such a like a powerful thing. Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_00

I gotta tell you that those quarterly events when we listen to the pitches, you gather a room full of of like-minded, self-selected believers who want to make a difference, have an impact in this world. We get together and look at the opportunities in front of us, vote on them, and then the next morning you're making a difference.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it's just great to know that there's a tangible benefit from it. We're surrounded, we're all in a room with everybody who's aligned in that interest.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And uh I I love it. I think it's one of the best things that's happened. I'm so glad to have been you know, asked to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_01

Are you kidding me? I mean, so you you've been somebody that's championed really everything that we were doing from the beginning, because when we were on that Israel trip together, this hadn't kicked off yet. It was about to kick off. I had I had left my old job. Israel was kind of like right in the middle of but when I was between what I had left behind and what I was starting. Um so you got to hear like the concept before it was that, which is kind of what you do. Karma, you see, you see that stuff all the time. You're when you're Carmen stuff. Um, but you'd heard about, hey, this is what we're planning on doing before there was any evidence that we were actually going to put you know real activity behind it. Yeah. Um, but then ever since it's been off and running, you've been an awesome supporter. So it's been great.

SPEAKER_00

Um so actually, I don't have a tithe foundation, but I do, I was so impacted by those trips. Yeah, and even the trip to Turkey with the Church's Revelation that I wanted uh Leslie and I have been talking about it a lot, and we decided we would sponsor a younger couple to be able to go on those trips. Yeah. So that take the affordability out of it and let them go and have that experience so cool. And uh, you know, I hope it makes a difference.

SPEAKER_01

It will, because I think about that all the time. Like I I wish more people could experience this at younger ages. I do feel like a lot of people go to Israel, they take trips like that for whatever reason. I see a lot of people that are retired or like older doing it. Yeah. I'm like, man, if they could just experience some of these things and make the Bible come to life for themselves when they were younger, what would that do to their faith and the way that they live the rest of it? So I think you're right on the money with that.

SPEAKER_00

I think it's a the most, like I said, the most impactful trip we've ever made.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh if you can do that when you're 25 instead of 55. I would say go for it. It's worth the investment.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You know, it's uh I mean, heck, of all the trips you take, I mean, instead of going down to Cabo or Cancun or something like that, try to figure out a way to go to the Holy Land. Now we'll have to wait a little while with this. Yeah, a little complicated right now. Yeah, right now. My mom was actually supposed to go in February with their church. And it was um maybe like a week and a half. I think they would have been there like a week before everything really kicked off over in Iran. Yeah. So it was like uh they didn't go. Yeah. And yeah, they were almost gone. They were about ready to just go for it, but they didn't go. Maybe that's the uh Guardian angel keeping it. Yeah, well, the whole the whole trip got canceled because it was like, hey, it looks like these escalations are like about ready to like really like the people that they have on the ground, they're like their counterparts overnight, they're like, Yeah, this things are getting real squirrely over here.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So uh yeah, looking back, it was like, yeah, good timing. But well, thank you for being here. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's really great. Yeah, not only have you become close friend, but you're somebody that's inspired me, you know, quite a bit. Uh your st your story is obvious endurance, you know, surrender, like all those things that I just mentioned about you, those are things that you model all the time, not just for me, but for a lot of the people that you have influence on. So it's great to hear.

SPEAKER_00

Um I just hope that somebody, like I said, in their 20s, hears this message. And if they're uh if they're starting a company, don't think you have to do it all on your own because you don't, and you're not in control of any of it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Um, so you know, forget that notion and just trust God. Um I say uh uh you know uh keep fighting but stop struggling. Uh that's good. Um be content but not complacent.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Uh you know, uh work hard but be home for dinner, and then open your hands, keep your eyes on Jesus, and just keep running.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Well, I appreciate it. I'm sure those words will be uh words of wisdom that'll go far and wide on this show. Yeah. So well, brother, yeah, we're over and out. If you uh if you want to get access to more shows, newsletter, uh books, and other resources, you can do so at marcreaves.com. But thanks for being here. Thank you.