Following God into Surprising Places with Pastor Ben Douglass

Faith Community Church Lead Pastor Ben Douglass joins First and Focused to share his journey from engineering ambitions to pastoral ministry in the heart of Columbus’ westside.

Pastor Ben discusses growing up in an urban environment, hearing God’s call into ministry, pastoring through the challenges of COVID and social unrest, and helping launch Westside Christian School to bring Christ-centered education to local families.

This conversation is filled with wisdom on perseverance, surrender, leadership, marriage, parenting, and staying in step with the voice of God even during difficult seasons.

Key Themes

• Urban ministry leadership 
• Christian education 
• Hearing God’s voice 
• Perseverance through crisis 
• Marriage and ministry 
• Kingdom impact in local communities

To connect with Pastor Ben click here: ben@wc.school

To connect with Faith Community Church: https://www.faithcommunitywest.com/

To learn more about Westside Christian School: https://www.wc.school/

To connect with Mark: https://www.markgreaves.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

My parents divorced and my mom things got sideways for a while. And she had this boyfriend that she married, and he he told me, uh, you know, you'll never amount to anything. You're a piece of junk. And so I dug in my heart, and this is not good. Yeah. Right? This is nothing good stuff. You're like, this isn't a strategy. This is nothing but just what happened.

SPEAKER_05 0:21

Can you just take us through the backstory that you have around your family and what your kids were experiencing?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

For the first time in my life, I heard him in my head, not through my ears, but in my head, I just heard him say, give me your engineering. Like, I just I don't know how to describe it. And I respect that. I can't. Because I'm the lead pastor. Bro, you better be You gotta live in the thick of it. You gotta live in it with me. Yeah. If you don't live in it with me, I don't know if I really trust you.

SPEAKER_05 0:47

Yeah. Like when you look back at your past, why do you think he took you through the engineering path? Man, God is so much harder than us. Welcome to First and Focus, the podcast where faith meets leadership. I know you're gonna put me on the spot. I don't know what you're gonna ask him to say. I'm Mark Greaves, and in each episode, I sit down with business and industry leaders who put God first in their work and stay focused on building his kingdom through their calling. I can sit here and talk with you all day. Keep up the great work, brother. Lord is using you powerfully. I love you. I love watching what Jesus is doing in your life. All right, everybody, welcome to the First in Focus show where we have leaders on who are in various industries who are putting God first, uh, not only on their work, but in their life and staying focused on advancing the mission of the gospel through their calling. So today we are here with Pastor Ben Douglas. Ben, thanks for coming. Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah, I'm excited about uh about this. We interacted really to start off, you know, through Tithe Foundation and West Side Christian School, which we're gonna get into. Yeah. Um, but really I've had uh just the pleasure of getting to know you and the way that you lead not only your congregation, but also the school and your focus on the community.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

So pumped to have you. Well, it's it's my honor to be here. I love what you're doing. This is a really cool podcast. I've listened to it and I've been super encouraged. These guys on here just sharing wisdom. It's been a lot of nuts. I need that, I need that, I need that. Give that to me too. So it's good. It's an honor to be here.

SPEAKER_05 2:21

Yeah, well, it's it's kind of cool that like in our city, I mean, we've had uh one guest on from North Carolina, but really in our city, there's so many people whose experience and their depth of knowledge on the topics that they're subject matter experts in. Like it's we're really scratching the surface. It's really wild. Columbus is a big city, though. We got a yeah, we got a lot of good people doing a lot of good things.

unknown 2:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 2:41

All right, well, let me hit your intro real quick. Okay. Everybody's getting an intro. All right, Pastor Ben Douglas, you are the lead pastor at Faith Community Church, located in the hilltop area of Columbus, Ohio's inner city west side, a position that you've held for over a decade. You lead the Westside Network Collaboration of Churches and Parachurches, part of the for Columbus City Reaching Movement. You're the board chairman of Westside Christian School that was launched in 2022, delivering Christian education to kids in the Franklinton and Hilltop neighborhoods. You originally studied engineering before hearing God's call to ministry, where you did your master's in divinity from Asbury Theological Seminary. You're a husband to Andy, a father of four, and above all things, a lover and follower of Jesus Christ. Pretty good at uh pretty good bio there. You're doing a lot of cool stuff. So uh just to get started. I mean, the the church and school that you faithfully serve at, obviously it's located in you know inner city Columbus. There's some challenges in the area that that obviously you're pastoring that you felt called to. Um, but you kind of grew up in that same environment from basically the background that I've got on you. Can you tell us a little bit about just kind of like life growing up?

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Yeah, so I grew up in Cincinnati in a place called Forest Park, and I grew up a white kid in a black neighborhood, so I tell people.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

And so um like my Boy Scout troop, I was the only white kid there. Um it was just it was just part of life. Uh so I was a little bit of an outsider, like you kind of like, oh, this is what it feels like to be in the minority group, wherever you are, and so I was a little bit on the outside. Um and so it just changed it just changes your perspective a little bit.

SPEAKER_05 4:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

I mean, how long did you live there? Like how what was the years? Uh I was born there and we moved in like fifth grade. So most of the early elementary school was set in in that place. And my my my family wasn't really healthy at that period of time.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

And so my dad had, I think, PTSD from Vietnam. And um my mom didn't grow up in a great home either, and so it just created this real mess of um of environment for them to grow up in. How many siblings did you have? I have a younger brother and a younger sister, so oldest of three.

SPEAKER_05 4:53

Nice.

unknown 4:54

And so there you go.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

How about you?

SPEAKER_05 4:55

Uh well, I'm the oldest of six.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_05 4:58

So yeah, oldest kids. We we've got a uh we got something in common. Yep. It's interesting to be the oldest kid. Yeah, sometimes you feel like you're getting all the attention, sometimes you feel like you're getting the shaft because you're watching everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 5:09

That's right, taking care of everybody, the built-in babysitter. Pretty much, man.

SPEAKER_05 5:12

That's that's pretty much. Because I was already babysitting four other kids, and I was like, now there's a bait, I'm gonna be babysitting forever. That's like what I thought. That's funny. Oh, that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

But we have four in our my our our kids, and it's so fun.

SPEAKER_05 5:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Like every, you know, you have one, you have two, um, or you have none. Like, it's still good, but like four is a lot of fun for us. Yeah, you start mixing it up a little bit more.

SPEAKER_05 5:45

There's there's a little bit, there's more things you can do. Oh, yeah. Like family game style, like you know, there's all kinds of stuff. Yeah, it's fun. So you gave your life to Christ in your basement. How old? I mean, you were just a kid. I was five. Five years old. I mean, can you can you walk us through that? Like, how do you how did you wrap your head around it when you were five? Like, what was that like?

SPEAKER_00 6:05

You know, it I I wouldn't I didn't know it then. I didn't understand it then. There was um, we had this book that talked about Jesus loves you, and I just remember feeling something supernatural and not knowing that's what it was, but just feeling like I felt my sin, I felt the weight of my sin, I felt the the love of of God in Jesus. And so I was like, Yes, I want this. Now I have a five-year-old. I'm like, how on the earth, how on earth did a five-year-old, but they do like they're so sensitive to the Lord. Yeah, and my even my five-year-old today, she's very sensitive to the Lord, and so it's just a wild thing, but yeah.

SPEAKER_05 6:45

Is that you do you feel like that's just because kids are like the innocence is still there? Yeah, of course my phone's going off. I'm sitting here doing this podcast. You're good, dude. It's crazy, isn't it? No, so I I do feel like there's something about the innocence of kids. Yes, and I I don't know, there's like the world hasn't gotten a hold of their mind, they don't question some of the things of of God like adults do.

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Yes. I see you see it. We you know, we're an inner city driven church and we work a lot with kids, yeah, and they're so sensitive to God, like they know God exists, yeah, and they're open to God, even when the adults in their life aren't, they will have this love and desire for Jesus. Yeah, and it's just evident that's cool.

SPEAKER_05 7:30

All right, so moving a little fast forward into your story, yeah. Like you did the engineering thing. Yes. I mean, you don't see a lot of engineers turned pastors, that's not like a normal route that people take. It's really not. Like what yeah, what was that? Like, how in how did that all come to be?

SPEAKER_00 7:50

So I, you know, as a young kid, I was I loved computers, I was into math, I was totally a nerd. Like that's just reality. Yeah, and so my parents divorced, and my mom things got sideways for a while, and she had this boyfriend that she married, and he he told me, uh, you know, you'll never amount to anything, you're a piece of junk, and all that kind of stuff. And um and so I I dug in my heart, and this is not good, yeah. Right? This is not a good stuff. You're like, this isn't a strategy, it's not a good strategy, this is just what happened. So these are not like please don't copy this. If anybody's has a small child, don't listen to me. But I was like, Oh, I'm gonna do this, yeah. And so uh you're you're an entrepreneur, yeah. Like there's something about the entrepreneur, I'm gonna dig in when you feel resistance, you go harder. Like, I'll prove you wrong. I'll prove you wrong, bro. And so I was like, just dig it in, and so I said, I'm gonna do this. And so I think it became honestly an idol in my life, and not knowing that it was an idol in my life, yeah. And so um it was in my junior year, it was February 2001, before 9-11 hit, and uh we were worshiping, and as we're worshiping, at this point I'm doing stuff in the engineering world, I'm leading IEEE or whatever. And I'd been serving, I was in crew at the time, and I was leading some a Bible study and disciple in a guy, but um while we're worshiping, the I heard God for the first time in my life, for the first time in my life, I heard him in my head, not through my ears, but in my head, I just heard him say, Give me your engineering. Just like a like I just I don't know how to describe it. Yeah, you know, and the guy describes it to you. Really? I said, No, and it was like like looking back, it's the stupidest thing you could say to God, but I've already proven that I'm just a crash course for what not to do with your life. Yeah, and um then I heard him again. He just it's almost like a wave, give me your engineering. And then I felt this weight on my body, and it's the weight I I think of of conviction, yeah. When you know that you're like when somebody calls you out in a meeting, you're I just felt this weight like God was calling me out, and I just felt this burden on me, and it was just getting heavier by the moment because I knew that what he was asking me was something I didn't want to give him. Sure. And um then I felt this burning in the back of my throat because I was about to cry. I was about to have the big ugly cry you don't want to have. Sure. And so I just started bawling. I said, God, whatever you want, wherever you want me to go, whatever you want me to do, I'm all in with you. Just whatever you want, I'm all in. And so that changed my life. Um they they put me in a leadership and crew, you know, and um went on summer project, I don't know what they call it today. And um that fall I was leading, we were at Wright State, Roddy Raiders, but uh, we were we were at campus led org. And so um I was leading this group of 120, 130 kids, teens, young adults, whatever we are. Yeah, and um it was wild. You just got to see God moving, and it was like I'd felt the presence of God in church before, and now I've heard the God of voice, the God's voice once, but like to see him just moving in people's lives, it was like, whoa, what this is what it's all about. This is what it's all about. It's addicting. I mean, not in a bad way, but it's like, whoa, dude, this is incredible.

SPEAKER_05 11:42

I'm only there's one thing to be addicted to, it's witnessing the move of God.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Oh, dude, it's so amazing. Yeah, among yeah, that's pretty cool. And so I um I quit. I when we graduate, I graduated and I started working as an engineer, serving in my church at the time, and uh just as like a lay leader, but I just couldn't shake it. Like, you weren't just called to lead this org, you were called to be a pastor, and so like I took a year and a half praying through it, researching it, trying to, you know, I'm an engineer still. What do I do? Like, how do I do this? You got a whole blueprint in front of you. That's right. I was trying to figure everything out. And so I as I've gotten older, I quit that. I've just given up on that. Like, yeah, with God, you you you don't get to plan your steps. Yeah, like that is so it's like it's just that isn't how God works. So it's just follow me. Yeah, just walk out by faith. Amen. Man, I mean, it's it's kind of funny.

SPEAKER_05 12:35

So, did you actually graduate with an engineering?

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so you stuck that out. I stuck it out. You have a bachelor's in electrical engineering, minor in computer science. And you've never used it? I used it, I used it for a year and a half. Okay. So I worked at uh right pat uh doing DOD stuff for a little bit. Um, and I worked in the church. Just I, you know, I served we started 20s ministry, and I got to see, so that was confirmation for me. Yeah, I was kind of like, okay, is this really what God wants me to do? And so we started a 20s ministry and it was rough. You know, just entrepreneur, you know, some things get rough for a while. It was bumpy for about six months to a year, and then it started taking off.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:14

And when it gets wings, it starts going. And it was like, whoa, okay, okay, let's go. Let's just do this.

SPEAKER_05 13:20

Why do you think uh like when you look back at your past, why do you think he took you through the engineering path? Just to take you off of it. What's the learning been from that?

SPEAKER_00 13:31

Man, God is so much smarter than us. I don't I so I worked, so I was bivocational as an urban inner city pastor. You just got to be bivocational. Because our you're a small church plant. So for eight years, I ran an IT department here in Columbus. And so it provided food while we had small kids. And uh, but I here's what I really think was going on. I'm a builder. Like there's different types of pastors. I think God has called me to be a builder, and so he allows me to be part of uh building new things and starting new things. Um and so like we able to start the West Side Network, we did learning centers during COVID. Like, there's just all these little things that you get to build and be part of. And so I think the creative building kind of thing is is kind of my neck. Now, speaking, it's not my thing, but I'm a pastor, so like you have to figure out to do it, you gotta do it. So you just figure it out. But it's funny how God does those things. That's awesome, man. Yeah, so how'd you get to Faith Community Church? That's another good question. So I think um because of my background of growing up a white kid in a black neighborhood and having all these friends, and then when we moved and I became a white kid and a white, everything's white majority, you kind of you miss it. You miss it. Did you feel weird? Oh, dude, I was an outsider my whole life. Yeah, so I started a white kid in a black neighborhood, so you're kind of the outsider. Yeah, then you moved to a white neighborhood, and the neighbor the culture was so different. Yeah, so I was like a TCK, third culture kid. So like I'm like in this world, and I'm already a nerd, so it's already kind of uh it's gonna be a little weird, but like I didn't fit in, I couldn't catch the cultural cues that I was supposed to be catching. And then after a while, you kind of settle in this is who I am. Yeah, I'm just always an outsider. Well, it actually works out great because in my neighborhood, I'm still a little bit of an outsider because it's a different culture. Yeah. So even in my neighborhood, I don't quite fit in. And so that's just how it goes. Even today.

SPEAKER_05 15:39

Yeah. Yeah. So what took you? So you were still living in Dayton at the time. Yes. When you moved here, was it for the job at Faith Community?

SPEAKER_00 15:45

Or how did that be? Yeah. So that's sorry, thank you. You got I get off track easy. My uh, the people that started Faith Community Church were about five years in when we came, and they had been praying for help. And so they had been praying, God, you have to send somebody to help us because we're we're we're burning out. Yeah, like church planning's hard, inner city church planning is really, really hard. And um my wife's mom had cancer at the time, uh, terminal cancer. And so we were looking for something that was nearby Cincinnati, Dayton, Columbus, Indianapolis, something. And um, they were looking to send us to St. Louis or out to Pittsburgh, and we like, man, there's got to be something closer. And so we found this little church plant called Faith Communities, they're just getting started. They were practicing what we call CCDA, Christian Community Development Principles, best practices for urban ministries, basically what it is. Started by John Perkins, if you know John Perkins. And so, like, we were looking for some kind of church like that. And here was this church, and just seemed right and we came, and it was amazing. It was really amazing to be part of it. So we we thought two years and we're going to Cincinnati and we're going to Dayton, we're getting out of here, we're going back home. And we couldn't. It was like, no, I have called you here. And we just, okay, Lord, whatever you want. We're just we're sticking it out.

SPEAKER_05 17:04

That's crazy, though. So you've told me a little bit like you pastored that church through COVID.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 17:10

And George Floyd. Yep. And it's one of the inner city churches, and that's obviously, you know, different demographic than what you are. Yes, yes. What was that like? What was the learning through those periods of time? I mean, it's take us through those moments.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

So, one of my favorite embarrassing moments in in that was when George Floyd happened, we were trying to reach out to pastors, and we realized that the network that we had on the west side, we were sitting in this conference call, all these other pastors, we were all white. You're looking around, you're like, wait a minute. Oh gosh, there's somebody missing at this table. Who is it? And so it was all these African American pastors that are bivocational.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:54

And so it was hard for them to be at the table because you're you're working, yeah, you're juggling a church in crisis, and now you have George Floyd. And so it's like, uh, what are you gonna do?

SPEAKER_05 18:06

Yeah, even more just lots of confusion, flare-ups, emotions, a lot of feelings, and it's and and so um the kind of the the ball got put back in my court because I'd been there longer than anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Like everybody else has been there a couple of years at this point. There's something about sticking, and I heard Scott Arnold talk about this. There's something about longitivity. Yeah, when you're there a long time, man, you just have these roots and these opportunities that you can't get if you jump around. Yeah, like when you stick it out, there's some blessing in it. And so I called all these guys, and uh, it was a really cool thing to do together.

SPEAKER_05 18:45

Well, I do feel like, yeah, some of the blessing is it it's not just longevity, but it's also just like the trust that gets built where people know they can come to you, yeah. Like you're a leader who they can trust to give wise counsel and also is gonna be there for them, you're not gonna abandon them. Right. Yeah. So that's an interesting thing. When you look back on that time, is there anything that changed or shifted within your church community? Oh yeah. Either for the I mean hopefully for the positive, but yeah, no, uh we replanted in 2021.

SPEAKER_00 19:16

Like um the planting pastor and his wife um had to leave. And so when they were when they left, the whole planting team minus us left with them. And a lot of the connections because church is so organic that they also left with them. And so it was really, it was like this moment, God, what do you want us to do? Do we just close the church at this point? Do you want us to stay? And um it was so turbulent because uh, you know, everybody was fighting about uh masks and shots and how you do church and what it looks like to to respond well. And you couldn't win. You were gonna you were gonna lose people no matter what you did. And so it was really depending on the Lord through it. And because we asked the Lord, what do you want us to do? And we felt like he said stay, we saw God bless it. And our church grew. We grew out of the building that we were in, and we started meeting at the local school across the street, and um, it's it's just a crazy thing. So I have it's almost like I've had two churches in one life in the same church building with this, you know, same name. Um, and so it's kind of fun how how God does that.

SPEAKER_05 20:35

All right, so but uh we're gonna pivot on a couple of things, but before we do that, this isn't on our script. Yeah. Um but I just know that this is true. When you planned a church in the ways that you've done, I mean, it's almost like starting a business. I mean, it's you got to assemble teams, you gotta raise money, you gotta have a vision for it. People have to buy in. Yeah, uh, there's a lot of logistics, a lot of things that need to get coordinated, paid for, set up, tear down. I mean, it's it's it's a it's a whole thing. It's a whole thing. For the business guys that listen to this show, how can they help you? Because I feel like there's a lot of synergies between some of the planning and the preparation and the scheduling and then the funding that business owners get. How can they come alongside pastors and really help make those visions come to life or at least take some of the burden off you guys?

SPEAKER_00 21:24

That is a really good question. Um, really gave me lift was in 2019 that um my denomination said, Hey, we're gonna cover the other half of your salary for two years. And so because they were willing to do that, that gave me the freedom to quit my job and to be full time with the church. And so at that point I had experience on what it looked like to be I was in their neighborhood a decade, and so I was like, Oh, I know it I know how to do this.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

And so it just gave me the ability to run. And so there's another pastor that was bivocational in our West Side Network. And after I became full-time a couple of years later, I was like, dude, you have to go full time. You got to do it. You got to find somebody. And so he's got a sister church in Dublin that they're part of their denomination network that supported them and allowed him to go full time. And it's released him to be uh to do ministry. And so in an inner city context, very for small churches, it's very rare that the child the church is self-supporting. And so 30% of our income still today comes from people on the outside that give to support urban ministry. And that just frees us up. Like I couldn't be full-time if the people on the outside weren't giving. So I know it's kind of weird, but I think of it as part of the way that we help each other in the larger church community that some of the more affluent churches or some of the more affluent Christians can give back to support churches where like these guys are working at Walmart, they're working at warehouses, they're trying to hold their car together. We have two cars in our in our church congregation where they're just held together by like duct tape. And we've got one guy that can fix the cars, but he's trying to get get there when he's not working. And so it's like, how do I get there? And it's raining, they're working outside on the street, and and so it just changes things. So they don't have a lot of extra capital to be pouring into the church. And so it takes, it takes two, two things, I think. One is I pray, God, would you send me one healthy, financially stable couple for every four families that you send from our neighborhood?

SPEAKER_01 23:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

That we would have some kind of ability to one, to disciple people and then to financially support the work that you're doing. Because you can't just constantly give out money without money coming into it. Yeah. It just doesn't, it's there needs to be a nice flow there. Yes, there needs to be a good flow in and out. Yep. And so that's been helpful. It's been higher for us than that. It's probably about 30 to 40 percent of people from that come from affluent backgrounds that they've now started moving into our neighborhood. And that is an incredible thing. When we first started, it was unheard of to move into the neighborhood. Now they move to the edges of the hilltop where it's nicer. And I I respect that. I can't because I'm the lead pastor. Bro, you better be you gotta live in the thick of it. You gotta live in it with me. Yeah, if you don't live in it with me, I don't know if I really trust you. Yeah. And so we live in the in it, but um, it's just part of the adventure.

SPEAKER_05 24:48

Well, one of the things I and I don't know if this is true or not, but without being full-time, yeah, would you have had the opportunity to do what you're doing with Westside Christian? No, not at all. Okay, so let's let's pivot into that. 2022, West Side Christian starts. Yes. And I know it wasn't just your church, it was like a group of churches, right? That supported this. Can you just take us through the backstory that you have around your family and what your kids were experiencing? Yeah. Why Westside's been such a blessing to your family. Yeah. That was one glimpse of why this needed to be created. But then just also just give us the whole story.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Okay. Yeah. Um so I'm gonna start back in um the fall of 2019. So is it 2019? No, 2018. Wow, fall of 2018. There was a kid in uh that lives in our neighborhood, I call him Jason. And so he um grew up, his d his dad's an alcoholic, his mom's a drug addict, his house is totally in shambles. And uh I did a funeral for his for his aunt, and so I saw him invited him to youth group, he came, he gave his life to Christ, he got baptized that Christmas. And it was like so cool. It was like I had uh almost like I I I tried to adopt him as a son, like, hey, we want you to be part of it, we want you to be part of doing this thing with us. And in the spring of that year, which is now 2019, I think the spring of 2019, um he begged me one day after youth group, he said, I'm supposed to go to the local high school and it had a really bad reputation. There was um kid's throat. The kid was trying they tried to murder this kid during the school assembly. I'm trying to keep a PG for your audience. Wow. And so, like, they tried to kill this kid during the school assembly, and so um he it we just knew he was in the the middle school he was in, like they were jumping, they're trying to fight with the police, they're pulling guns out of bags, it's nuts. But he he desperately didn't want to go to the high school. He had a 3-4 GPA, he was on the basketball team, a really sweet kid, and out, and so when he asked me to give him out, we said, Yeah, sure. Well, so we took him to um a Christian school in Grove City, and we looked at it together. We went through the whole process. I vouched for him because you have to have a believing parent to get into Christian school, because you know, like they don't want yep, dangerous kids in the school, they want they want to reserve it. And so they want the influence to be right.

SPEAKER_05 27:14

It's like, hey, if you're if you're here, Jesus is the priority. 100%. So we can't have a bunch of people who don't believe in Jesus anymore. Right.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

We have there's other schools for this, correct, but not not a Christian school.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

And so we went through the process, and like I was so dumb on education at this point, I didn't really know anything. And so it's like, oh, we're gonna get you in. I was like, money's money's not an issue because we'll we'll cover it, we'll figure it out, you know. Um, grade, you have a three, four GPA, you're a sweet kid. Aces. Yeah, we're in. And uh we get to the process. I remember we're sitting across from the principal with with Jason and his mom, and the principal says, We've looked at your test scores, and you're the bottom 20 percentile in math or English, I don't remember which one, and you're the bottom 8% in the other one. And the principal said, You will fail every single class if we admitted you here. You're so far behind, so we can't take you. And that crushed him.

SPEAKER_05 28:15

Yeah, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_00 28:16

He quit coming to church, he quit coming to youth group, he quit going to school, he started hanging out with some dudes he shouldn't be hanging out with. And it was it was like world-changing spin in my life, like what just happened, God. And we uh I remember I called the school up afterwards. I'm like part of me wanted to be like, bro, don't do that to us. Yeah, like tell me before we walk into this meeting, so at least I'm not blindsided by what's about to happen to him, and maybe just say you don't get in, you know, it was just a misstep. We all make mistakes. And I called him, I said, What do we what do you do if we can't get him in? And they said, You can't wait till high school, you can't wait till middle school. Yeah, you have to get him out in elementary school. And I was like, Or else the system just passes them by.

SPEAKER_05 29:12

The system passes them by, and you can't catch back up. You can't catch back up. When you're year when you're years behind like that, right, because the the curriculum doesn't slow down, right? It speeds up. So yeah, it's man, what a problem.

SPEAKER_00 29:25

What a problem. So that summer there was a gal in uh our in our our church that graduated high school, she was the smartest kid in our youth group, and she had gone to Ohio State straight out of high school. She went to the better of the two high schools on the west side. And so I thought, oh, she's a shoe-in. Like she's like, she's sharp. And she dropped out. She had a scholarship to the to Ohio State, and she dropped out before the first semester, and it she's like, I can't do it. I was like, what is going on here? Um I really didn't have a category and my daughter was going into second grade at the local public public school. So I grew up a public school kid, I went to public school, went to public university, I only went to seminary um in uh grad school. And so I just had no clue what Christian education was. Um so she is my daughter's now in the fall of second grade, and she quit eating. Like she wouldn't eat, she wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. She was crying and pulling the covers over her head and begging us not to send her. And I remember when I I remember standing in her room with her covers over her head crying and begging us not to send her, and my wife standing next to me. This is the problem with being the oldest kid. You and me know this. Yeah, parents are still figuring things out. We were just figuring things out. Sure. Absolutely. Like, oh wish we weren't here, but that's where we were. Sorry, Ellie. And so, like, uh we knew we had to get her out. Yeah, we can't. My wife is the PTA president, she was in the classrooms, my daughter had straight A's, but my daughter was being tough, and she wasn't telling us what was actually happening in the classroom. And so when we found out what was going on after we told her we're pulling her, um we were like, oh yeah, this isn't this isn't good for anyone. And I remember my wife being burdened. Um she's more she's compass she's more compassionate than me, just naturally. Yeah. And she said, We we can't leave the kids in our church behind.

SPEAKER_05 31:51

We can't get our own kids out and leave everyone else's kids. Yeah, not to mention these are the kids that are like surrounding our house.

SPEAKER_00 31:58

These are our neighbors, these are our neighbors, yeah. That's right. So we can't abandon, abandon them. And we were so, you know, in our our zealousness, we were trying to be so we're for the neighborhood, we're fighting for the neighborhood, we're gonna lean in and we're gonna change the neighborhood. Bro, some things feel impossible. And um, during COVID, um we uh we did a learning center. So we started a learning center, they started all over the city. It was a really cool opportunity, and we got to witness in our church kids that we were working with multiple hours a day. So we had an after-school tutoring program for about 20 years um at the as a church, and then we did the learning centers, and it was like, oh, it doesn't matter what we do, you can't do enough to catch these kids. They like you just said, There's not enough time, yeah. You don't have enough time. Yep, like it just builds on it. The academics build on themselves every year, and teachers are working their heart out just to get them one year in advancement. Yep. And now you have kids that are growing up in a you know, if you grow up a kid in poverty, you have so many obstacles in your life. You often don't have a dad in your life. Not every kid, but a lot of them don't have really dads in their life. You grow up in an environment where the teachers are trying their heart out. Like we knew the we knew the teachers, we knew the principal at the school, they were busting their butt trying to help these kids, but it was chaos, and there were still all these problems going on. Kids are staying up too late. There just all these problems when you grow up.

SPEAKER_05 33:36

There's no reinforcement at home, and then you're you're just trying to keep the peace inside the walls of the school. Yes, yes. And the amount of learning that's going on is probably very minimal. Yeah, it's it's tough. And so I yeah, no fault of the teacher. No fault of the teacher.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

It's just it's the reality. It's yeah, some classrooms are harder than others, and you just cram so many kids in. If you have one, they've you know, there's a study done. If you have one kid one year in your classroom that's just disruptive, you lose $80,000 of lifetime earning. And so they tracked it. If you have one kid all the way through K eight or K 12, like, bro, you've lost like a million bucks.

SPEAKER_05 34:09

Well, because that's a uh I mean, just the amount of time that it takes to get order restored in the room, right? And that's all lost opportunity that could be actual learning versus everything else that's going on. Yeah, it's just all kinds of opportunity cost of time.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

And there's just there's just there's there's a there's not just one kid. Yeah, there's multiple kids that are having a hard time because you're growing up in hard circumstances, you have people in your family that are dysfunctional, you're not getting the sleep, you're getting you're getting neglected. Yep. And we just saw it over and over and over again. I had one kid in our youth group tell me, um, I failed every kid, every class, I failed every one of my classes, but they're gonna pass me on. And I said, What?

SPEAKER_05 34:51

Yeah, the stat that I saw was in the district that you're in, I believe that only 15% of the students can read at grade level. Uh it's something crazy like that. Yeah, I wouldn't be I don't I don't I should know that much. I mean, but but it's um when you look at those statistics, you're like, how are these kids ever going to succeed or find their way out of that environment or those situations they're in? Right. And what you're saying is it seems impossible because the reality is a large percentage of them won't, unless they're removed from the environment and given a new environment. Yes, which is what you guys did.

SPEAKER_00 35:25

Yeah, so we did, you know, I would love I I want every kid to succeed. Yeah, like I'm not against public schools at all. I think there's some things that they could do, they could instantly change the dynamics. So we talk about smaller class sizes. There's a national study done, actually international. It was done in Great Britain and Sweden and the UK, or I'm sorry, uh Australia, the United States. Um, and they found Hong Kong, they found if you can lower the size between 15 to 17 kids, you will see these kids have lifetime better achievements. So when we started West Side Christian School, um, not because of this, but because we have smart people that know these things, yeah, we made intentional small class sizes. And we have um it's a Christian environment, and parents are selecting to they want their kids to be working in this education. One of the largest uh best markers of academic success is if your parents are engaged in your education. Doesn't matter if it's public, private, or uh charter. If your parents are engaged, you're gonna do a lot better. And so you have these are kids from my neighborhood in the school. The first year it was a little rough because I remember there's some stories I probably shouldn't say on air because our principal may kill me, but like she had to draw a hard line, and these teachers are drawing a hard line. Oh, you will not do that here. Yeah, you know, and every once in a while they still have to draw some lines, but it's been incredible to see the kids from my neighborhood flourishing academically, meeting Jesus, giving their life to Christ.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:01

Um, and it's just been it's just this beautiful thing. And I just think the legacy that they have because God did this.

SPEAKER_05 37:09

I mean, I you probably don't know it's only how many years old now? This is like what fourth year, fourth year, fourth year. What's the expansion look like coming up?

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Yeah, so we're uh every year, God Lord willing, we'll be adding a year till we get to eighth grade. And then once we get to eighth grade, that's a whole nother conversation because high school, you can't just our little school is just a blip on the west side. And really, I would love to see, like I said, I'd love to see public schools make a big, big, big shift, but it's it just feels it's not my call, it's somebody else's call.

SPEAKER_05 37:42

But even getting through eighth grade, yeah, and then in your community is the best that your ability, your worldview is pretty well set by 13, 14. Yep. So then if those kids are leaving west side and re-entering public school and high school, obviously there it's gonna have its challenges because now you're gonna be, you know, the shock of the new environment going back into the old one. Yes, it's gonna be a little bit interesting. Yeah. But hopefully they would be able to influence the culture around them. You might be able to see some of those things change.

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Yeah, and I think uh there's prayerful considerations about what to do for high school. Yeah. You know, one is a partnership with where my daughter goes to school. Yeah. I don't know if I what well, I don't know what the rules are for this, but she goes to a really great uh school. Shout out to Todd. Yeah, there we go. You know, like it's an amazing school. And so maybe we partner with them, or maybe maybe we work with Harambe. They're another one of our dear friends, yeah. And we do some because they have kids from the hood, and we have kids from the hood, and the culture is very different.

SPEAKER_01 38:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:43

And so, how do you help them have a flourishing environment uh beyond that? So that's a God thing in the future, he has to figure it out. And like you know this, and I know this. You don't get to decide every every decision you make. You just say, Okay, what's the next thing you want me to do? And I'll take I'll be faithful in that. I can I can dream about it, but I can't decide it.

SPEAKER_05 39:03

So I gotta ask that. So you you go rewind to the you know, the young man you were trying to get into, the Christian high school. Yeah, you know nothing about education, you're sitting there, you're blindsided that the principal's saying you're not allowed to do it. It was still blindsiding. Two just a few years later, yeah, you're the chairman of a school. Right. That was a pretty big leap from knowing nothing about it to all of a sudden now there's a school that's been formed, yes, that's fully functioning, that's expanding up and through eighth grade, yeah, that you're the chairman of.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:30

How in the world, I mean, do you how does God just like that? He switches things on you to where now all of a sudden unequipped or equipped, one way or the other, this is happening.

SPEAKER_00 39:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 39:43

What do you see in that?

SPEAKER_00 39:45

Man, it's so good you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Sometimes that is a good thing. It's a really good thing because you would say, I can never do this. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_05 39:56

Um do you think half half of it is that you didn't know how difficult it would be?

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Oh, 100%.

SPEAKER_05 40:02

So you're just taking step, step, step, step, step.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

And well, there's another guy named Jim Swearingen that helped start uh Harambe with Alex Steinman. And so I heard Jim's story because we were part of this cohort of inner city churches doing stuff together. And he's he was on the board at CCDS, like, yeah, we can do this. You have no idea how hard it is. And like, you can't do it. Like the reality is if God doesn't move, you'll never get there because you have so much like Satan's real. You know, first thing they'll change your life, God's real. The second they'll change your life, Satan's real and he he doesn't like you. Yeah, and so he's coming after you. And every step along the way in ministry, whenever you do something significant for the kingdom, I've felt spiritual pushback.

SPEAKER_01 40:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:46

And it's been sometimes it's been really hard. Um, but God is able and he overcomes. So he brought, I just mentioned Todd. Todd, I went to my daughter's school and I said, Would you help us start a Christian school? Because I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah. And so we talked to Todd and then he introduced me to this guy named Aaron with the Center for Christian Virtue. Yep. And so I thought Aaron was just like a dad that wanted to do something with his kids. I was like, okay, well, maybe we'll and I go and it's like, oh, this is like a whole like company or group, you know.

SPEAKER_05 41:19

Oh, yeah, it's a big thing.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

It's a big thing. I was like, oh, okay. And so then God brought in um a guy named Troy McIntosh, and he brought a principal Brenda, and he brought this board together. And so, like 100%, I had no idea what I was doing.

SPEAKER_05 41:33

What the cool thing is now is there's a template. Yes, like it's almost like uh here's a school in a box kit that you can like open up. And if you have a church who is a willing partner that has a building that's suitable for a school, yeah, now there's this framework that can be followed. Yes, and a school can be opened. Yes, like it's how easy is it now compared to when you guys were kind of blazing the trail? Like if you were a pastor, let's say that you're a pastor and you're and you have a church and you want to start a small Christian school in your community. What's that look like? Uh it looks like you you call it OSIN. Yeah. But did did OSINT exist when you guys were opening yours? No.

SPEAKER_00 42:12

No. OSIN was a thought.

SPEAKER_05 42:14

And OSEN's the Ohio Christian Education Network.

SPEAKER_00 42:16

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So we got in ground floor. So I remember um Troy was getting started and we had coffee, we ate coffee over on the west side. And at this point, we've already talked to Aaron and talked, talked to Todd. We've already walked through the different locations, we've already picked the location. Yeah. But like, if it wasn't for Troy, we wouldn't have been able to do it. If it wasn't for Brenda, who had all this experience in being a principal and teacher, yeah, we wouldn't have been able to do it. And if we didn't have, we had financial partners, we had a business partner. You have to have capital. Oh, yeah. It's it's a whole thing. And um having OSIN there at our backs to help push for us and help change the law. So the choice would be um increased amount of funding. That also helped us significantly. And then the new SGO that that that that CCV was part of and saying, hey, we need to breathe this application.

SPEAKER_05 43:15

Plug for SGO, if anybody doesn't know what that is, it's a scholarship granting organization. Yes. And you can go, if you're an Ohio resident, yeah, uh, it's up to $750 per person, $1,500 for a married couple. Yeah. And each year you can donate that to a private school of your choice. Yes. And that gets back dollar for dollar tax credit on your return. So it's a way to basically repurpose money going to Uncle Sam, send it to your favorite Christian school, yeah, and you get it right back.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

It's so good because it's not just taking money off of like, you know, your general income. It's it's giving your taxes to help the scholarship program. And it's it's essential. It's essential for our school. When when I talked to Alex Steinman Harambe back, In the day about this dream, he's like, Well, we raise over a thousand dollars a kid every year. And I just thought, like, bro, how are we gonna do that? How are we gonna do that? Yeah, like I don't even know how to raise a thousand dollars, much plus thousands of dollars. And so the SGO really has fills this gap between the ed choice and what you need in order to make it a survivable school. Yeah. Now it's still like schools like Tree or Grove City Christian, like those kind of schools, they raise a lot of money so that they're able to and in order to create really nice, like they have STEM programs and they have soccer fields, and they do incredible things. And they're doing that through donations and fundraising, and so it's really good.

SPEAKER_05 44:44

Yeah, it's really, really good. All right, so we're gonna pivot a little bit, but yeah, um, thank you. When you look at your future and you kind of see like where things are heading, knowing that you could never have predicted where you are now in your past. Yeah, how do you hear God's voice today? Do you still hear him wave over you like you did during worship? Or you know, you're a pastor, you're probably talking to him all the time. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 45:08

How do you hear him now? That's a really good question. You know, um that God speaks through a variety of ways, but he also burdens you through things that he's calling you into. And so uh Henry Blackaby and Experiencing God talks about you're trying to find where God's working and join him in. And so I'll find that he like brings this up and he brings it up, and sometimes it'll be through people, and so this person will say it, and this person will say it, and this person will say it, and you say, Oh, God's saying something. I need to be listening, he's he's speaking right now, or like this burden that my wife felt first. I said, Yes, this is right, this is what we need to do, and so um I don't I've had very few times in my life where I can say I know that God spoke audibly into it into my into my mind. There are some things he says like, I love you, or those kind of things as you're sitting there, you're just listening, God, what do you want to say to me today? And you're just kind of sitting there listening. That's one of the practices I didn't have most of my life, but I've picked up in the last five years, is just sitting with the Lord and saying, God, what do you want to say?

SPEAKER_05 46:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

And just He doesn't always talk. He doesn't always talk.

SPEAKER_05 46:34

I just started doing that really over the course of the last year. Yeah. And sometimes it's like, you know, you're you're done reading the word and like you're you prayed. And like sometimes I'll just be like, All right, Jesus, I don't know if you got anything.

SPEAKER_00 46:44

Yeah, do you have anything here?

SPEAKER_05 46:45

But I'm just gonna set a timer here for five, 10 minutes. Yep. I'm just gonna sit here.

SPEAKER_00 46:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_05 46:49

And if you want to tell me something, this is your time to speak up. That's right. And I'm just gonna quiet everything else down. I'm just gonna sit here. Yes. And then sometimes if my mind's racing on all the things I've got to do that day, right? I'll just pray. Like, hey, my mind's racing, God. Yeah, if you want to interrupt it, it's yours to interrupt. That's right. If you don't interrupt it, I'm just gonna go and do what I was gonna do. But if you want to like alter that course, yeah, shove something into my brain that yeah isn't in there now.

SPEAKER_00 47:13

Yeah. So I'll like, I'll that's I I totally I totally track with that. Yeah, I'll pray for people in our church, and as I'm praying for them, I'll feel an extra burden for this person and I'll text them. Yeah, how's it going? What's going on? And I'll just keep going through the list. And I there's just these like little prompts. Like, can I just go like back when I talked about Jason? Yeah, the reason he came to our youth group in the first place was I was getting into my car to go to youth group, and I saw him across the boulevard down the street, and I just felt this prompting. Like, hey, you should invite him. I was like, I'm not gonna invite him. He's so far away. I'm looking like an idiot. But I I just I just felt like this, you should do that. Yeah. And so, like, they're just little prompts. But if I hadn't yelled, Dad Jason, you want to come with us? He's like, All right, I'll come. Like, if I hadn't done that, I never would have been on this trajectory with him, yeah, and then been through this suffering with him on the other side, yeah, that then birthed something beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 48:12

Um Yeah, every little piece of that story kind of led to the desire to start West Side Christian school, which yeah, would have never taken place other than that.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Right. And so you just think like when you're just listening to the little daily prompts. So I actually think of like there's five spiritual practices that help people grow. And the third one I always talk about is learning to listen to the voice of God throughout your day. Just the little prompts that he's saying, like the little nudges that he gives you along the way, the things you know you should be doing, but you're not comfortable doing them, whether it's praying for a coworker, asking this guy a question, the things that just put you out just a little bit outside of your comfort zone. Man, God might be doing something incredible.

SPEAKER_01 48:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:53

If you'll just step into those times with him and say, okay, I'll do it.

SPEAKER_05 48:57

It's kind of an interesting point because I'm just cycling through my head right now. I can't really think of any off the top of it. Yeah. Where has God made any kind of a significant move in through any one of us inside of our comfort zone? Like I can't, I can't really think of any. Right. You know, he's always gonna stretch us. If he wants to do something significant, it's always gonna be beyond what we think we're capable of. Yes. And we're gonna have to trust him and have a faith step and then see what he's gonna do. Right. I mean, West Side Christian School is is case in point example for that. Yeah, that doesn't exist because that was something that you had the skills and the knowledge to create. Not at all. No, you just had the the faith, and then he planted the desire in your heart, and you took the step. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. It is, it's so crazy. All right, so two more. Yeah. Um one, you've been married for 18 years, right? Yeah. 18 years, four kids, 18 years. Yeah, and it's not like you guys have taken an easy road. You're kind of walking the narrow road together. Right. Yeah. Um, what are some of the secrets that you guys have put in place that you've been able to navigate some of the twists and turns that life's thrown at you?

SPEAKER_00 50:04

Um we pray together every every day. Um I think that really matters. And when you're going through something together, we stop and we'll pray. And like he is he's the center of our relationship. And then I think if you marry well, that probably doesn't hurt. Yeah, you know, like my wife is an incredible person. Yeah. And um it helps when you have hard days and you can talk together about the things. So, like uh yesterday was a hard day for me, for instance. Last two days actually have been pretty hard for me. And um, it's always like, how much do I share that doesn't destroy you, don't want to destroy the other person too, but like talking through things together. And I'm I'm an overshare, that's my wife will my wife knows that. But like we share the burdens that we have together, and we pray for each we pray through those things, we encourage each other and build each other up. Um and I think uh she's been really helpful for me. I don't know if your wife's done, I'm sure she has. Well, well, it's actually funny because we're gonna be married for 18 years as well. Oh, yeah. Yeah, this yeah. Nice, yeah, dude, it's awesome. Yeah, and so like there are times when I'm doing I'm going too far, and she will let me know. Uh, you're you're off in the deep end.

SPEAKER_05 51:39

The women know that before we know that. She totally did. Yeah. I uh so I spent a lot of my marriage not paying attention. Now I'm like, if Danielle speaks up and she's got an inkling about something before I do, I'm like, I'm gonna I'm gonna actually like err on the side of listening to her. Yes. Because nine times out of ten, she sees it coming way before I see it coming.

SPEAKER_00 51:57

It's the Holy Spirit speaking through your wife. Yeah. Um, I remember one time I was working on this sermon that was especially heavy, and she knew it was heavy because we talked about it. And she came in and she said, Hey, what are you talking about? I explained the thing. She goes, Okay. She went off and she prayed for me because she knew that what I was working on was really heavy. And she says, as I was praying, God brought this to mind. I said, That's exactly right. I need to use that. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna shift my sermon based on what you've said, and now I'm gonna redirect it in a way that's more compassionate or more more wise.

SPEAKER_01 52:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:36

And so, like, uh marriage is a blessing if you're both going rowing in the same direction.

SPEAKER_05 52:43

Yeah. Well, and it's also cool because uh women's perspective on things and the way that they perceive things is very different than ours. So it's great that you guys can share that because then she can kind of give you those glimpses of it's not just men sitting in the pews. Right. There's gonna be women out there too. Yes, maybe throw this in, maybe talk about it in this way. Like it's that's pretty cool.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

She doesn't do it all the time, but when I'm really stuck, the Holy Spirit kind of brings her over and fixes things for me. Thank you. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 53:11

All right, so the final question I have is what's your favorite sermon to preach? Or is there a favorite passage that like you love making this point or favorite one?

SPEAKER_00 53:24

Okay, so this is my little soapbox for right now. Is that okay? You go for it because I i I don't know how many times you've preached, probably what, thousands? I don't know. I have no idea. Probably probably something like that. Yeah, probably thousands.

SPEAKER_05 53:36

Yeah, so what's what's your favorite stuff?

SPEAKER_00 53:38

Um I think that the thing that I see as an inner city pastor is that people are living the American dream. But the American dream is not the Christian aim. And so our time here isn't about Disney World. Like it's not it's not No, you go for it, man, because I think I I think I'm probably gonna agree with you. I don't know if all the listeners will listen. Yeah, but like the goal is not Disney World, the goal is not vacation. Like, I I I know folks that every time they get they're on vacation, they're on vacation, they're on vacation, they're on vacation. And so what it feels like their purpose is is to just rest. I just need to rest. But the the the the American dream, you know, the pursuit of happiness specifically is not the Christian aim. Like Jesus is coming back, and how we live our life now, if we're living on mission or not on mission, matters.

SPEAKER_01 54:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:39

And so the way I use my time, the way I use my energy, the way I use my finances, it needs to be on point with Jesus. What do you want me to do? It's okay to rest. Like we're taking a break this summer and we're gonna go spend time together. And so I'm not condemning vacations, but it's like so much of the American is all about me, me, me, me, me, me, me. Yeah. And it's not about me. Like the longer I'm a Christian, the longer you're a Christian, the more you go, man, it's about God.

SPEAKER_05 55:10

It's about it's uh it's a it's a continual transformation of that thought process. Because I'm with you. I mean, I like vacations too. Who doesn't like them? Who doesn't like vacations? Right. But what I see a lot of times is it's it's sometimes it's the pursuit of rest, but sometimes it's just pursuit of running away from the reality of their current life. Yes. And I feel like it's I can speak from experience on this. Yeah. When your life is oriented all inward towards yourself and towards your aims and goals and accomplishments, that becomes a pretty lonely place and also becomes a pretty miserable place. Yeah. So vacations is just a way to escape it in your mind for a brief point. It's a way to just like put it all to rest and just forget about it.

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 55:51

Versus if you're pursuing happiness and it's all around things or accomplishments or vacations, right? It's you're never going to find it. Right. But if you actually get on board with a real mission and the purpose of your life is to glorify your creator and you're really on board with Jesus, happiness doesn't, you don't have to pursue it because it ensues. Yes, it just pours out because you're experiencing the life that is truly life that he came to provide.

SPEAKER_00 56:16

Yeah, you have this joyful flow that's happening in your life all the time. And so I don't want to say that you can't have happiness, but the American dream aim is not really the Christian aim.

SPEAKER_05 56:29

I wonder where that came from.

unknown 56:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 56:31

Because the American dream really morphed. I mean, I feel like what what it was maybe when like the country was founded versus like what we were raised to think it was, like when we were in the school in the 80s and 90s, like I don't think it was the same thing. I don't think it was either. I think we got sold a different dream. I think we did too. I don't know when that happened or how that happened. I don't know when it shifted, but like you know, originally it was like, you know, have some freedom, like raise my family, like maybe work some land, like be able to worship God without the government getting in my way.

SPEAKER_00 57:03

Right. Yeah. And it's like, hey, we're we can be we can be happy here. So that kind of happiness I'm totally fine with. Yeah. But the uh it's like this candy-coated, money-filled climb the corporate ladder, or entertainment thing driven is just not the real, the true purpose of the Christian life. And so I think it's just a misstatement.

SPEAKER_05 57:24

So do you think now, this is uh last question? Yeah, do you think because that is how it was sold to us, and because you've seen people let's play it out where they've they've aimed at that, yeah, and it doesn't seem to really be working. Yeah, right. There's there's not a lot of people that I know that that's still their aim, and they're like, Yep, this is totally fulfilling. Yeah, this is what I'm doing, and I love it. Right. Usually there's a lot of there's there's pain, there's there's realizations that this isn't fulfilling. Right. Like now, who am I? There's like identity crisis is happening all the time. Yeah. Do you feel like that's a real opportunity for people to shift into what following Jesus really looks like? I think you're totally right.

SPEAKER_00 58:04

Yeah, I think that's it's a great opportunity for us to to recapture the wonder and the and the joy there is in following Christ, the whimsicalness. Man, when you're on an adventure with God, it's insane.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:18

You get to see God do stuff every day, and it's it's amazing. Like you get to see it with the tithe, yeah, and I get to see it as a pastor. And like I think so many people are thinking, oh, I serve at the as a parking lot guy at church. Brother, that is not your identity in Christ.

SPEAKER_01 58:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:35

Your identity in Christ is how are you living this out Monday through Friday? How are you living this out in your workplace? How are you living this out with your family? How are you living this out with the people that you're engaging with?

SPEAKER_01 58:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:45

So that you're really pursuing God and all these things. And it's just, it's like the Christian life is just book of acts. Yeah, it's like the book of Acts, and we're living in it. And most people are stuck like, oh, I checked, I checked my card on Sunday morning, I'm going home. That's true. Bro, you're missing it.

SPEAKER_05 59:03

Yeah, no, I think it's just the simple, the some simple mindset shifts. Yeah. When you're in your day-to-day, whatever it is you do for work, it's like, who is it for? Yes. Is it for me? Right. Or is it for him? Yes. And if it's for him, he's going to show you doors that are open, opportunities to talk about him, conversations to have, questions to ask. He's going to let you step into eternity in your temporary. Yes. If you redirect it and say, hey, this is for you. This is to honor you. You put me here for a reason.

SPEAKER_00 59:29

What do you want to do today? I remember I was an engineer and working in my work in my office, and every day for months, we had a spiritual conversation with somebody every day. Yeah. I wasn't even trying to do it. I just said, God, would you create an opportunity for me to talk about you sometime today? And God would just bring these conversations over. But you were open to it and willing. Willing. And when you would see the door, it would be like there's these moments where God was doing something. You'd say, Ah, I think that's a God moment. And you just say, Hey, what about that? And it would just take off. It was amazing. I was like, oh, bro, like anybody can do this. And it's just right there and they don't know. So you were a pastor even while you were an engineer. Exactly. Nothing really changed. But see, we're all ministers, right? Like the Ephesians 4 says we're here to equip the church for the work of ministry. So that means you're a minister, I'm a minister. Everyone in business is a minister. Yeah. And so, like, the the there's a shift that we have to get that the pastor is the coach, not the football player. The football player is the guys going out Monday through Friday. We're just kind of cheering you on from the sidelines. Go get him, go get him. We're trying to bring him in to feed them, send them back out. Yeah, man. Anyway.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:40

That's awesome. Well, thank you for everything you do. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for just like the your willingness to A, be in the community that you serve. Yeah. And then not just be there, but actively looking for ways to improve it, starting the school. I mean, the story is inspiring just all by itself. But um, yeah, thanks for for you and your family and everything you guys do. Thanks, man.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

Well, I appreciate you, and this is a great podcast. So keep listening, subscribe, hit the like button. Yeah, there you go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:05

Speaking of that, yeah, so we're over now. But if you want more uh access to shows from the past, uh newsletter or the resources, you can get it at markreeves.com. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for watching the First in Focus show. If you enjoyed today's episode, make sure to hit like, subscribe, and then share with a friend.