Staying Human in the Age of Unregulated AI, with Çiğdem Öztabak

Çiğdem Öztabak is a journalist and media-communications consultant who's spent the last decade covering technology at the intersection of media, tech, and the human story — writing for outlets including CNN Türkiye and Aposto, the Istanbul-based digital media company known for its curated newsletters and journalism. Before this, she created and hosted a chart-topping children's science podcast about the natural world, animals, and conservation.

In this episode, Çiğdem and I dig into Humanarium, her project exploring how humans can stay connected to each other in a moment when AI is evolving faster than our ability to regulate it. We talk about the wave of AI scientists who've walked away from the field, what that exodus signals about where this technology is headed, and what's genuinely at stake for humanity if we don't get intentional about using our soft skills — the very things that make us human in the first place.

#TheSustainableArtist #Humanarium #CigdemOztabak #AI #Tech #Humanity #Sustainable 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:00

20,000 people are building AGI, only like 200 people working for AI safety right now.

SPEAKER_01 0:10

Yes. Emotional artificial intelligence, what happens if machines act like mothers? I mean, these are very compelling and important things to talk about. What are you hoping to accomplish through your writing and your work in your media company?

SPEAKER_03 0:26

My purpose, my personal purpose, is that contributing to this planet and in this AI age and machine age to create more awareness and carry the information that I am finding very important.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Like, okay, I'm gonna get out of this information, but we're already on this AI train that's going at lightning speed. When we get this information, what do we do with it?

SPEAKER_03 0:50

Like something more collective and more interconnected. Everything is like do it yourself. DIY. Yeah, DIY.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

DIY your entire life. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

We have to get eye contact. Because when we get eye contact, our oxytocin is working. What do you think? What do you think we need? We need like keep our curiosity and kindness.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

We haven't really had a conversation about AI yet. Or let's talk about it. Kind of like more futuristic stuff. Like you know, I just haven't explored that in depth. Yeah. And so I feel like this will be a good fun opportunity to do it. Shidam Ostebak. Yes. We met on the beach Puerto Rico. Yeah, ocean, ocean park. An ocean park beach in Puerto Rico. Yeah. But you go by she a lot, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:44

Yeah, I know. The meaning is the kind of flower. I love my name because I love nature. And like uh in this technological and you know the uh machine age, you know, we need more nature, and like I I love it. But most of the people in the United States they are calling me chi. You're from Turkey though. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

Which we were talking about Puerto Rico and the island, but I remember when we first met, you were telling me about some parallels too of like being from Turkey.

SPEAKER_03 2:12

Yeah, I'm from Istanbul, and um Turkey is like you know, very cosmopolitan like country. We placement like between Middle East and Europe, and we are very mixed uh like nation. If you love history, if you love like you know, good food, yeah, and like you know, like friendly people, you should come to visit in Turkey.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

Listen, I'm not I'm gonna hold you to that. I know you're living in San Francisco right now, but I'm gonna hold you to my visit to someone. Well, I wanna I wanna go back to a point you said, and I'm gonna read some things you mentioned, you know, I I write certain things, and I'm not sure if people will read it, but you know, maybe I'll connect with one or two things, uh, some of the articles you've written for a postal. You know, putting the universe in the jar is simulation replacing reality. Yeah. The artificial intelligence climate of 2026, the end of the internet, we know. Sam Altman and Steve Kerr, an unconventional conversation on leadership wealth in the future. Donald Trump called Silicon Valley to the table, what was discussed, emotional artificial intelligence, what happens if machines act like mothers. I mean, these are very compelling and important things to talk about right now. What are you hoping to accomplish through your writing and your work in your media company? What are you what are you hoping to obviously we all need to make money. So beyond beyond making paying the rent, you know, like what are you hoping it can do for people or for yourself?

SPEAKER_03 3:50

My purpose, my personal purpose, is that contributing to this planet and in this AI age and machine age to create more awareness and like the carry the information that I am finding very important for us. Yeah, it's like 20,000 people are building AGI, only like 200 people working for AI safety right now. Yes. And um so in human area, like I am trying to understand like how I can like um keep and like protect my skills, not like only hard skills, but soft skills, which is like actually more important than hard skills because AI can do any hard skills that you can do. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

And when you say hard skills, I mean I have an idea of what you mean, obviously, like hard not obviously, but I don't want to assume that everyone understands what hard skills versus soft skills are. How do you define hard skills versus soft skills?

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Yeah, so hard skills is basically like um maybe you are an engineer and you educated about like your field and you can understand like um maybe like how molecules are working, how proteins are functioning, or like how this microphone, like you know, working and how you can make a microphone. But like soft skills is like how I am like a good listener, how I am a good like connector, how I am like um empathetic, how I can like keep my eye contact with you, you know that kind of things.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Do you feel that we're losing that as a society? Like, do you feel we're losing those because of AI, or I mean, has that been in decline for years before?

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Yeah, because of not AI, so actually like when we are thinking this social media boom and like internet boom and the older things in digitalize and ads and business change and like basically we change. And actually, like if I ask to you or like to the other people, like do you think like we manage this social media boom actually is like we manage with a good way? No, we we couldn't like if people can like answer actually like yeah, we we manage actually pretty good.

SPEAKER_04 6:35

No.

SPEAKER_03 6:36

And yes, we are getting alone and like we are we are we are more individualist, you know. And this was the like a social media impact to the people. Yeah, be individual, like you know, individualism and like meditate yourself is like you know, manifest or like is you can do everything, you can be a founder and you can you can play this founder game, you can like build a product by yourself, like everything is like do it yourself.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

DIY yeah, DIY like DIY DIY your entire life, yeah. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:14

We had also like a maybe uh small moment like when you compare the social media boom, but also we have like the DIY boom. Yeah, do you remember the Pinterest and YouTube like full of DIY videos?

SPEAKER_01 7:28

I mean it started with I would say like the home, the HGTVs. I don't know if you had a HGTV version in like Turkey, but like all those channels, the Bravo, and like where he's like, Oh, you could redo your home, and then it's like makeover, you could do a redo, like do a makeover, and then the makeup tutorials and all these things, and then now it's everything and anything you can think of is a DIY.

SPEAKER_03 7:49

Exactly. Yeah, DIY, and like right now with AI, and like AI can do everything, and you don't have to think.

SPEAKER_05 7:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:57

So basically, there's a like a one uh research and they publish it from MIT, and they compare to like a human brain who is working with AI, who is not working with AI. Basically, like the people uh like who are working with AI, like their brain functions and like like some areas getting shrinking.

SPEAKER_01 8:21

Oh yeah, I could I can feel that even within myself. I'm like, ooh, I have to push myself a little harder to do things that I would normally like if you're not exercising that part of your brain, yeah, it just shrinks.

SPEAKER_03 8:33

It's yeah, it shrinks. It's not gonna be like getting more developed or getting you know better. Yeah. And it's it they're comparing, like, yeah, it's like calculators in invented and people like stopped to like calculating it in their mind or uh something like that. It's not the same thing. It's not the same thing. For example, I used to ask you, maybe I have a question and I don't know about that domain, that topic. And maybe you are the expert that topic and you are my friend, and I would ask you, like texting you or like calling you, hey Carolina is like, do I I want to do this? And what is your recommendation? What can I do for this? And you will tell me, let's cheat them, is like you should do this, you should start with that way, you should read that book, you should go like see this thing, right? Yeah, and and then we had a like connection. But right now, like we are asking to AI and we are losing our connection, it's a basic connection. Yeah, like this example is very simple, very from daily life. And probably everyone like can have this. Everyone have this.

SPEAKER_01 9:47

Yeah, and it's like if again, if with the connection pieces, like I can just text my AI, my chat bot. Yeah, you know, I can just write a message, ask a question, and get an instant answer versus calling my friend on the phone and da da da da, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 10:02

So or even let's meet. Yeah, like it will be disappear. Yeah. Hey, I want to talk about this. Can we meet and then can we discuss? And can you support me like about my idea? Yeah. Can we do brainstorm? Yeah, it will disappear.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

Yeah. But you see, then there's this other side. I would love your take on this because I do feel there's another side that it is making us more human because we crave the human connection then after a bit. Yeah. Like after we've done the technical hard, you know, skills stuff.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:35

I'm like, I'm like craving human touch, human conversation, and it almost makes it that much more delicious and like rich because now I've had like a day with a freaking chat bot. Yeah. And so I'm like, I'm craving that human touch. So do you feel there's a there's also that happening simultaneously?

SPEAKER_03 10:57

Yes, definitely. And like my biggest concern is like and this individualism like uh it's killing us. And this, yeah, social media and like it's technology is evolving, and we can reach like more information. Yes, science is like you know improving and like faster uh way, and a lot of things is like uh like we are receiving things easier and more like information, like more than like than before.

SPEAKER_04 11:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:35

So this is very good, but like when you are thinking like human touch and we are craving like um human connection, it's like disappearing. And if disappeared and we will forget about our own skills, how will we reflect that? And like if we can forget about our skills, soft or hard skills, how we will think about like what is the meaning of like life, what is my purpose? And actually, like the um what I recommended a book from Ewal Hareri in Homodeus, he was talking about this, like and he was predicting to like um the that um people will lose their life purpose in the near future. So like it sounds like futuristic, but it's not.

SPEAKER_01 12:30

I think it's happening now. Yeah, yeah, I see that. I mean, I see that also because of the upheaval of the world, people aren't really sure what's the point, how do you move in this shifting world that's changing so quickly? Yeah, it's hard to find your footing in that space.

SPEAKER_03 12:50

Exactly, and like it's right now that I am seeing like builders when you're uh like watching the builders, like who is you know working in this AI industry, like big names like Sam Altman, like Elon Musk, like uh Dariandra Meida, like an anthropic CEO and founder, co-founder, and the other people, and like you are seeing some of the people are very optimistic about that, some of people like very pessimistic, and they're actually worrying about this um you know concern, they're raising concerns about the like human connection, about like education, about like kids, and like how we can protect them. And like a lot of young people, minors actually committed the suicide because of the chatbots and this AI chatbots this year in 2025. We started hearing that and like these are like major cases, yeah. Like if like the miners are like committing the suicide because of the chatbots, we have a major problem.

SPEAKER_04 14:05

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 14:06

Yeah, we have to point that and um I actually like the other recommendation I would love to mention the AI doc, like AI documentary, the release like recently. Actually, like I had a chance to watch screening in New York, okay, and that was so good. Everyone has to watch that. What's it called? The AI dock.

SPEAKER_01 14:32

The AI doc.

SPEAKER_03 14:34

Yeah, the AI doc, and like you can find in online, and not like online, but you can find to like where they are screening right now. Okay. Hope like, you know, this biggest streaming platform can release that kind of content, yeah, that like everyone can watch it.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

Because I am already like working in this in that domain, and I am researching and I'm aware when I'm watching it, that I am just like, you know, adjusting my uh like thoughts and yes, exactly, like this. But like is I I would love to like um if Netflix screens that kind of documentary, for example. Highly recommended. And um you can see the like uh different different people from this domain, like optimists and like pessimists, yeah. And they're talking about like optimists are talking about the universal income, how we'll increase the universal income, and how will we get like health treatments for free in the near future, which I don't believe that. And and you can also like listen to other people, they are working for AI safety and they're more like not optimistic, and also they are not anti-AI people. I am not anti-technology people, I love technology, I love like reading and what's happening in our world. Like, that's why we are sitting in this chair right now, right? I'm I'm grateful for everything, but like, yeah, it's um definitely uh human connection under the endangered. Yeah, yeah. That I'm feeling it.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, yeah. And I guess when I hear that too, it's like, okay, you know, I definitely want to go and see this documentary. And I get this sinking feeling at the same time, or not sinking, but just like I guess concerned, yeah, that it's like, okay, I'm gonna get out of this information, but we're already on this train that's like going at lightning speed, this AI train that's going at lightning speed. And it's like I think what a lot of people are feeling now, and I'll speak for myself as well, is like this kind of defeat is defeatism or defeated, yeah. Like it's just like, okay, so it's it's gonna be horrible, but it's uh we can't control it, you know what I mean? Like we're also fighting wars and dealing with tyrannical leaders and all of these things, you know what I mean? It's like when when we get with this information, right? Uh what do we do with it? Like, what do yeah, what do we do? Like you you're taking a particular angle, and I'm not saying you have to have the answer for that, but I'm just saying, like, why is it still important to get the information, even though we're still on this very fast moving train that we don't really have a lot of power to stop? Yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_03 17:32

Yeah. Right now it's like million people edicted on social media, like million people edicted on social media, edicting on porn, and like you know, the stating apps, and like people forget about the like a you know, um basically like a human connection, and they're like um they're creating a distance with like themselves and also with other people that like who is the closest people, you know, and so like with this information I'm like hundred percent sure we will uh get addicts on chatbots and like with AI. And I don't know like how many hours you are spending with the chat GPT or like the cloud and with like chatbots or creating art and like you know we like didn't mention but also like generative uh AI media also like growing, yeah, and more people are creating art, design, and like voice design, voice cloning, like everything. So is even like right now, like millions, millions of people edicted on social media. So what we can do, and like we we have to be intentional intentional about our lives, basically. And like I think um like I'm checking my notes here and I am thinking like um actually like this planet has had enough of individualism. Yeah. I think we're okay. We learned we we are totally fine being individualism, right?

SPEAKER_04 19:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 19:32

And I think we need to move forward like something more collective and more interconnected. So what we can do with this information is basically it's starting be like being in being awareness, being aware of like is how can I manage my time, how can I spend my time better? And like even like if you have a like a relationship, if you are married or like if you have a romantic relationship, even like if you have a like a you know work-related relationships, we have to get eye contact. Because when we get eye contact, it's like we are um our oxytocin is working. So we need oxytocin, we need endorphin, we need dopamine, but like if you are releasing your dopamine systems, like you know, everyone is talking about the like dopamine releasing, like Andrew Hüberman, and you can like uh watch him and listen to him. I'm not a neuroscientist, but I'm just like learning about like how I can protect myself, like and like it's a lot of distractions and things. It's like attacking me, and like I am like getting tired of consuming everything. I am tired of consuming LinkedIn, I am tired of like consume of like content.

SPEAKER_01 20:52

Yeah, so everything is gone.

SPEAKER_03 20:58

This is enough. But please listen to this. It's not like we are living in like a you know, like a dilemma almost, right? We need to protect ourselves and like and it we need to manage our relationship with others, like keep eye contact because it's a good thing, it's like good for your physical health, yes, good for your brain, yeah. Keep your exercise. It's like everything is connected actually.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Work with your hands, work with the earth, exactly, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:30

Exactly, touch the grasses and like it's and just we have to be like more aware because like uh even like I am worried about like we will not have enough time for being aware of these things because we were we will be so busy to consume and like create something. Oh, I have an idea. Let's let's work in this like this AI tool, but it isn't like really Necessary. Right, right. And also like you are consuming energy. Like with your energy and also like from the earth energy. Energy from Earth.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

Yeah. So what are some do you implement do you find yourself stopping yourself throughout the days to say, okay, I need to be more human? You know, do you do you do that? And if you do, what what what are the things then aside from like eye contact and things like that, that you're implementing in your daily life? I would love to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:35

Yeah, I would love to, but like is everyone is working, everyone is like, you know, has a different age on that. It's hard to like meet with your friends. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

But you meet you a lot. Yeah, I feel like you are very social though. Like you feel like you know somebody everywhere and you're constantly traveling. And like I feel like you're always with like a community of people. Yeah. At least from what I see on your social media.

SPEAKER_03 22:57

Yes, I am. I love traveling. And actually, like for me, and like this is my you know personality when I am traveling, when I'm connecting with people, that's like when I am feeling more human myself.

SPEAKER_01 23:13

I could agree with that.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

Because I don't have a like any agenda, just I am having fun and like learning, and like you know, I'm open-minded, yes, and I am like myself. Yeah, yeah, I am not performing, I am just like laying down at the beach and trying to get some some some sun. Yeah. And like, you know, like some ocean breeze, yeah, and like watch the blue sky and that just that.

SPEAKER_04 23:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Like I am traveling. I'm more like I want to do more like you know, traveling, but also like it's not easy to move. And but like in daily life, definitely I want to like human connection, and I'm feeling it. When I'm like meeting like with my friends, even this conversation, it's like giving us to reflect and also like we are feeling in present time, yes, and there is no distraction. You and me, yeah, and we are sharing our thoughts, and this is like very beautiful, and like even like we cannot, you know, see what's happening in our brain, but like we are bonding, yes, yes, yes, yes, and this is so beautiful. So uh when I am like feeling I am too much into social media, I am too much into like a chat boat. Sometimes I'm stopping myself when I am like working with AI tools, like I'm like, okay, I'm tired, so like why I'm doing this? It's okay, stop it, yeah and go and read your book. So I am trying to like journaling with my hands because I don't want to like lose my like writing skills. Um and yeah, reading, like journaling and trying to connect with people, even like if I'm going to cafe, it's like I'm intentionally trying to be like you know talk talkable. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? Yeah, yeah, social. Talkative, yeah, social. Like I am trying to like eye contact with even like a baristas, and then it's giving you like a you know, it's nice thing. And some people are like who I know, they're really like thinking, like, you know, in United States, especially when you're going to cafe, it's like the baristas is like saying, Hey, how are you today? Like, I like your earrings, I like your t-shirt, you know. It's like this is the thing, and some of people like my friends, they are thinking of this is a like uh it's not sincere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right? What do you want from me? Yeah, it's not sincere. You don't want to say hi to me, actually. I'm not thinking that way. If you actually like something is uh better when you pretend. Yes, because our brain is like our brain duty is like you know keep us live alive. It's like not like the other things. Yes. So if you if you if you can be like, you know, if you can pretend, yeah, hi, I'm good, how are you? Yeah, it's like yeah, I like your hair also. Yeah, like so wow.

SPEAKER_01 26:21

In spontaneous things have, I mean, that's what happened with you and I, right? Yes, like we were dancing, I was dancing on a beach. It was like, hey, I wanna have fun too, and whatever, and then you build a friendship out of it, and you never know how that's gonna end up.

SPEAKER_03 26:36

Exactly. Yeah, and where we are here, yeah, it's it's so beautiful. So, like I am doing this like intentionally. Sometimes I'm feeling and also like you know, um, spend time with animals, also like really good for like our oxytocin level, and which like um for man actually is more important because as a woman we are uh as I learned, and hopefully it's a like uh accurate information that I'm giving right now. I think as a woman we are producing oxytocin uh more than man, like four times more than man. And actually, man um as a species, they need uh eye connect, eye connection, eye contact um more than us, more than women.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 27:27

They need more to do that.

SPEAKER_01 27:29

Yeah, and I mean they certainly need more oxytocin because from what I've heard is that they have a higher suicide rate by far than women.

SPEAKER_03 27:37

Yes, that you can you cannot feel uh oxytocin and you cannot have that oxytocin that you need uh from machines. Yeah, no, you cannot like eye contact with the hu one of the human aid robots and you don't have to, uh b basically, yeah, and but like do more like human connection and like feel the scene. Yes, you know, feel the scene, feel your presence, and your presence uh more meaningful with others. Basically, we are living and we are like you know connecting each other to witness our lives. Everyone like wants the someone to like witness some witness like and witness like to your life, yes, yes, yes. And this is like a a basic like like our um human basic like for a human being.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

Totally, and it's so something we so take for granted, just the being witnessed by another human being. Yes, we don't even think about it because we've never had to really question it or but with the with the with the entry of robots in our lives with artificial intelligence in our lives, these things become that much more noticeable now, or at least if we're paying attention, right? If we're like assessing what's happening, yeah. The eye contact, the touch, like you cannot do any a hug. Yeah, you know, somebody rubbing your back, somebody listening to you, knowing who you are. Like I went to dinner with to brunch with two of my oldest girlfriends, we've known each other since high school, and you know, I started to say something, and they were like, Carolina, don't do that, or whatever. Like, and I'm like, Don't do what? And they were like, We know what you're gonna say, and I'm like, damn, these girls know me. And I was like, oh man, they know me, like they really know me. And I just I had forgotten that even because we we hadn't hung out in a while, and I just it's like people that understand you on so many unique levels because they've seen you grow up, they've seen you, you know, and that was like that was such a telling moment because especially as you get older, you know, you don't you become more insular to like you have less friends, and I was like, wow, there's nothing that can replace that. Yeah, that human understanding, you know, like you can get some perspective. Like, I will I definitely have put you know AI to task with like personal things, you know, like emotional relationship things, and a lot of it too is a scientist in me, because I do want to see what it will say. I'm like, how will you figure out this hard emotional problem? Yeah, yeah. That's something that I'm just curious about. I'm like, how will you figure out this emotional problem if I give it to you? Yeah, and then I'm delighted, you know, because then I'm like, oh, you that was a new perspective that I didn't understand, or like it can it it reaffirmed me in some way and validated me in some way. But it it is that thin line of then how do you then continue to nurture your, you know, and I find that with me at least, while it's good, I also am like, well, I do still miss my human connection and those those people that know me very well. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 31:01

No, it's like loneliness can like actually like you know, uh you can feel it. You can feel as a physically, you can feel in your body, you can feel like is you need a friend. This is like very like how how should I put like you know, it's a there is no word in English, but like I will just throw like a feelable, like you know, you can feel yeah, yeah. It's like it's a recognizable, yeah, as a like a human, like uh physical. Yeah, so it's like yeah, they are the tools are the models, they are pretty good, like on like uh mental health, psychology, and like and immediately like uh they can please you, they're really targeting like pleasing you, and also like you can like learn a lot of things. So when I am like putting like maybe like um intimate information, like if I am asking something, uh even like I I am asking it that way, like hey, can you tell me like how how would you deal with that like you know emotional struggle? Yes, even like I'm not saying, hey, I'm feeling this emotional struggle. If I'm not saying this, yeah, the AI is like considering you are you are you are like you this is about you.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

That's the equivalent of that.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

Um it's asked I'm asking for a friend, like and it's like everybody knows you're asking for yourself. So it's like yeah, they're like, yeah, sure, you're asking for a friend. No, it's for you.

SPEAKER_03 32:34

Yeah, and like it's actually like I am putting like give me a source, like give me sources, and please like I am asking like brawls like all the like scientific, you know, the articles and bring me information from like these sources and always like give it to me source.

SPEAKER_01 32:54

Are you asking that intentionally? Because you is it because you don't want it to know that it's about your intimate details, or is it because you want it to go and seek out information for you?

SPEAKER_03 33:05

Yes, I'm going I am seeking out like information, like legit information. Yes, not like you know, browsing all like because the AI tools like browsing all the internet.

SPEAKER_04 33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:16

Twitter is like they have a like a um a legal case about this with YouTube, Twitter, and like X and um the other platforms, the major uh media companies, New York Times, suing open AI because of this, because they are thinking, okay, you train your model like with me, with my content, and you are like making money from it right now. You can't do this. You have to pay to me, or you cannot like use my information, use my like platform to train your models. So the these tools, and like when you're asking something, they're going to like you know, browsing all the data they hold it, yeah, and they're just like throwing to you. But I wanna learn, I wanna know what is your source. Give me a source that I can decide still. I am like taking the control, I am taking responsibility, and like that I wanna know the source, you are like giving this information to me. If I find this information, this source is legit, okay. I can use that information. Right. I can apply it on my life or mindset, or I can train myself because we are also as a human constantly improving ourselves, and we are really into the improving ourselves because of the age we are living in. Because all this individualism thing, you know, like take care of yourself, love yourself, and you know, meditate like by yourself, like everything. Yeah, yeah. When there's been enough.

SPEAKER_01 35:02

We've had enough, enough already. No, it's so true. When it's like you find that, you know, maybe I need some studies to quote for this, but I know that there has been research on how you feel when you do something for another person versus like for yourself, and you find like that there's like so much more satisfaction in, you know, even like somebody gives you a hundred dollars and they're like, okay, you could either go buy something for yourself or buy something for somebody else, and you'll get so much more joy from having bought something from somebody else for somebody else, even if you're in need, which is isn't that so fascinating that that's like amazing what we are as as as humans is that we actually get more joy from that, yeah, you know, yeah, from that from creating that bond or connection with someone else.

SPEAKER_03 35:50

Yeah, yeah, definitely. Like when you're like connecting with your friends or colleagues or someone, like this is my favorite thing like about this life. I love learning things from books and internet or like whatever, but like from like human, from you, from the other person. It's so fascinating. And then like you are thinking, okay, so when you are learning things, you wanna like separate the word, and when you are sharing and the like the information is like you know, the information is starting like this journey, yes, to like you know, to it can reach to the Puerto Rico, yeah, right? Yeah, yeah. And like it's it's kind of fascinating, yeah. Right? It's this is a technology, and but like when you're learning things and when you're not sharing, and when you don't have time to share, when you have time when you don't have time to meet to need people, or like with your friends, what will you do? So everyone is doing podcasts by yourself, yeah, by themselves, right? And like all the short videos and like things, okay, we are learning from it, but we are learning from the screen, which is okay, really good, easy, accessible, yeah. But also, like let's consider to like this human connection that we need it.

SPEAKER_01 37:22

You know, you know what's interesting, and then I want to get into a little bit more about um humanarium. Did I say it correctly this time?

SPEAKER_03 37:29

Yes, humanarium.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Humanarium. Um, then we'll get a little bit more into humanarium. Um, but like I see now, even like Oprah with her podcast. Yeah. Podcast in air quotes, I put because I just feel like that's just Oprah show. Like it's like you just revive the Oprah show. Yeah. Um, no shade to Oprah, like whatever, you know, do your thing. But like um, it's interesting because she brought back this audience, like audience setup, right? Where she's that is so refreshing to even see the audience there. Like, yeah, I'm like, oh my god, if there were an audience here right now, how much more energy would that be? But like you'll see that there's an also there's an uptick in like live shows, you know, sales, like all of these things, because people want that human experience, right? They don't want to be looking at a screen anymore. But even just seeing the audience in the show and hear like even seeing their head nods and the and the connection that they're making and how things it's such a refreshing, like deep, kind of like fulfilling thing to see. Just that sm you know, that change. So I totally, I totally hear you. Like to create, it's great to have information shared digitally because it reaches wide audiences, it helps a lot of people, it reach you know, it goes far, yeah, you know. Um but we must counterbalance it with the community aspect, yeah, you know, that releases this individualism.

SPEAKER_03 38:58

It's very important. Communities are very important.

SPEAKER_01 39:01

Yeah, yeah. And so for you now, trying to find community for humanarium, how has that been? Because you're saying there's only this like very f like a fraction of the people working in AI who have these kind of like code of ethics and just like are grounded in what humanity should what we should be holding on to when it comes to our humanity. Yeah. So how has that been, like trying to find community for you doing this work now?

SPEAKER_03 39:26

Yeah, actually like um what you mentioned about the operas and like you know, the she collect this audience again, like it's really maybe like a old school format. Yes. And I want to bring back this old school formats actually. Yeah, you know, it's um maybe like we are really lucky to witness in New York and like there's a lot of like you know, communities and like people used to here in this city and like uh doing things together, yes, and this is so beautiful, yeah. Yeah, I'm feeling like grateful to like chance to see in the city in this community like based lifestyle. So in human area, actually like I'm working with very data-driven research. Research about like is you know this like people are quitting and like what's happening in the like ethics and even like moral space. And um and then I wanna like I don't wanna like do something or participate something boring, you know, like one of the person like lecturing you or like is yes informative, like being informative is the best necessary, but not like every time. So we need to bring back to this old school format to get together and like share together and eye contact, like be like represent our presence, feel seen, yeah, and yeah, we can find very creative way to do that. So what was I I am thinking the other day? So this eye contacting, how powerful, yes, how powerful. And what if like we can test and like we can get together and like all the people and eye contact each other intentionally and like as even like stranger, and like let's push like uh each other to do that, and also maybe we can bring a robot and like some of them trying to eye connect eye contact with the robot, and we can measure even like we can measure our emotion level and even like we can excuse me, we can measure off like I don't know, some like brain activity.

SPEAKER_01 42:01

So you're saying have a room. I could already hear the New Yorkers groaning, like oh what eye contact with people in the room? Um but basically have a room with individuals, strangers and not strangers, create eye contact and then have robots in there as well, and then measure the differences between you know what that does for us emotionally. How would you measure that anyways?

SPEAKER_03 42:29

Oh, there is a lot of startup, like is the or companies and they are working on it like it's actually like I'm really happy to when I am discovering them. There they can measure your uh you know, like emotional level, what is what what's happening in your body, and like your oxytocin level, your brain activity. So there's a like um in our brains, like some part of our brains like represents like our emotions. For example, when we are feeling sad, angry, or like is a negative emotions, like your adrenaline is like increasing. And when you are feeling happy and like you know, excited, and like also like your adrenaline is like going to increase, but your serotonin level also increasing, and they are some way like handshaking to make the balance. So, for example, like it's there's a very interesting research, and I remember just right now when you are seeing the really cute animals like cats, even like babies, you are just like wanna excuse them. Like you're like, I I wanna I I wanna just like you know, like eat you, you know? Yeah, yeah. You are like doing this, you are feeling it. So actually, it was happening in your brain, and like your like adrenaline and your endorphin and serotonin increasing to like it's you know the um very quickly, like same level, and you Are you feeling love and also you are feeling some kind of like uh aggressive feeling? You wanna eat them, yeah. You wanna skew them. So, like excusing something, it's not like happy thing, actually.

SPEAKER_00 44:15

Squeezing is a little violent, yeah, it's not like violent, yeah, yeah, right.

SPEAKER_03 44:19

And like somehow, like these hormones, like handshaking and like regulating you and like stopping you to eat them. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 44:31

Even if you have a partner, you bite their you know their arm or something, you just you just you're like, I just you know, they're gonna bite you, you know, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 44:39

Like, and your serotonin is like running and like okay, I have to stop you because you cannot eat this cat.

SPEAKER_01 44:48

Hopefully that kicks in.

SPEAKER_03 44:49

And you are experiencing these two levels of emotions at the same time, right? There's a like a scientific um research about it, and it's so interesting.

SPEAKER_04 45:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 45:01

So I I want to just like you know make visible disinformations, more like, you know, reachable this information and like more like you know uh create an awareness about these things, about our humanity, our our like human skills, yeah, our like mechanisms. So when you are working out at the gym, you are not seeing your muscles actually getting improved, like at that moment. It's not visible, right? You know, inside in it, but yeah, it's like after a month, like maybe after a while, you will see you are like getting fit and your muscles like you know growing, and you will see it. It's like you can see it's observable, right? Right, but like you cannot observe your brain, and then you can check your emotions, you can check your feelings, you can check your presence. How are you feeling it? And human area uh will aim this, and yeah, it's like um I I really wanna like find the people um like who is caring about these things, who is working in this field, yeah. Like uh like we we have to fight with this addiction.

SPEAKER_01 46:21

Do you feel that most tech bros, because it's mostly bros, you know, yeah, um, have just cut off this, you know, because you said there's 20,000 people working in this space, only about 200 of them are trying to kind of look at it from the ethical point of view. Do you feel like it's just that they've ran off, you know, the majority of people that are working on in this space have just ran off, kind of shut that down that human part of them?

SPEAKER_03 46:49

That's a very good question. That's a very good question, and like I actually I don't know. My answer is like I don't know, but like what I am seeing, um two things. So um like the m like major people of AI and like who is working with really high level uh on that field, basically they are saying if things get like dangerous for humanity, like our planet, we have to shut this down. But also like they are constantly saying, and like most of the people um struggling to understand this phrase, which is like we don't know like how these models are functioning. Right, they all say that we don't know how they're functioning, so they don't know how they functioning, so how can I know?

unknown 47:51

Right.

SPEAKER_03 47:52

So it's that's why Geoffrey Hinton quit, like actually, because out of the control. We can wake up tomorrow and like that's why this like is putting the like universe in the jar and like the simulation like theories that word models and they're like crazy theories. Like they're really like is interesting, but like it's not abstract anymore. So we have to take seriously this. And I don't know if it was a PR move or not. Maybe you can um also like you you you have an opinion about that. I um I watched Sam Altman like OpenAI CEO the other day. He was talking about to like actually about kids and like kids' relationship with AI. Yeah and like he was talking about actually like people has to like uh limiting uh limiting their times, limiting like uh their child times with the AI, with relationship with AI. And I was just hmm interesting. Like, and like he started talking about like yeah, we have to prepare ourselves because AI will be smarter than us. He openly said that.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

And you say interesting because why would he being the owner of this um encourage less usage? Or what is the danger that he's seeing for kids using this? Is that they're gonna be brainwashed, they're gonna be manipulated by the AI.

SPEAKER_03 49:34

Yeah. They're already like facing uh legal suits, legal case, um because of the like the unfortunately couple of uh minors committed the suicide and they died. And um so I don't know like if he's deeply caring about this or it's a PR move, or I am not sure because of the like news about him.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

It's hard to say that he would be deeply caring about it if he has stopped, you know, if the if he hasn't been a proponent for creating, you know, real regulation around it.

SPEAKER_03 50:11

Yeah. So is my exactly on it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

So if you're not a proponent of creating real regulation around AI, then that's just talk. Yeah. You're just talking. You're just talking.

SPEAKER_03 50:23

Talking. Yeah, it's still like you know, it's a PR, PR move. Yeah, yeah. It's like it sounds like a PR move.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

It sounds good.

SPEAKER_03 50:30

Yeah, it sounds good.

SPEAKER_01 50:31

So where are you actually investing in these regulations? I don't, you know, I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 50:36

Yeah, they are talking about the universal income and uh, you know, the like all the sustainability field and the companies like uh started payback with the carbon print, you know, and because of today they're consuming the energy from the planet. So what will be in the near future for human is if AI is replacing human, you know, effort? Mm-hmm. Just a question, just like you know.

SPEAKER_01 51:08

Yeah, I don't know. That's a good question. I would ask you a bit. I mean, that's the question. What will be the human role essentially if AI continues to replace the human?

SPEAKER_03 51:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:21

Right.

SPEAKER_03 51:22

Yeah, it's a tough question. And actually, like, let me check is like I wanna uh mention about uh uh one of the organizations who is working uh on this field. And anyone you know interested in this, you know, questions and like you know, asking questions. If you started asking questions, what will happen to like human effort? And like really, I don't know, Carolina. It's like it's that's why I wanna know. Yeah, that's when you're researching. I I wanna know, and I I want to like uh I want to have at least like some opinion about it, some clarity about it. So there is a one like um organization, non-profit organization, Center for Humani Technology, and the co-founder is Tristan Harris. Tristan Harris is like he was also uh a Google employee back in time, and he was like a this famous documentary in social dilemma. And he's also obsessed with this, like you know, uh protect the human skills, human connection, education. Like they're like big non-profit company, and they're they're like really good team. And they're like asking actually these questions, and they're constantly creating contents and putting themselves under the spotlights. He was uh on the Kara Swisher podcast the other day with Scott Galloway, and he's like putting himself on this topic. And so I would like I'm following them.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

That's one resource we can use.

SPEAKER_03 53:14

Exactly. And like who is interested to in this topic and who is worried about the future, and also he who who is wanna know, you know, the like about the technology, like you know, the um like updates and everything. Yeah, it's great to follow. Yeah, well that thank you for people.

SPEAKER_01 53:36

Yeah, and thank you for that research. I mean, that's gonna be someone that builds your your community, and yeah, we need to find those people because you know, as as I guess we've seen, um the ones that are vocal are few and far between. So um, okay, so I I have I have a couple closing questions for you. Um, you know, we started talking about this off camera before, but you know, the question that I ask every guest is what do you consider to be a sustainable artist, right? And that is a very open-ended question I ask every guest, and I want it to be under your interpretation, like what does it take to be a sustainable artist? Um you know, and you mentioned, you know, for yourself, yeah. Like, you know, well, I don't really consider myself, you know, an artist. I think you were to thinking about it a little bit differently. Whereas the one thing I will qualify is that to me, an artist is anybody creating, which we are all creators, right? Yeah. To one extent or another. But given the context of humanarium, the work that you're doing, the research that you're doing, for us to be able to sustain, right? Um, what do you think what do you think we need?

SPEAKER_03 54:48

Oh that's a very good question. And I think um maybe I will repeat the same thing, but uh we need like keep our curiosity and kindness. And like this when I'm like thinking when I when you when you are asking to like what is the being a sustainable artist in this age, yeah, I'm not considering myself the like you know the artist, and you told me like like everyone is like artist with some ways, the creators and and I was like actually yes, like is the protect is uh like maybe um sustain your cognitive um actions. I think I am like desiring to like sustain my cognitive performance with curiosity and with kindness and how can I contribute to this AI machine age to serve the humanity? So we are going to moon and we are just like you know, we are about to discover other galaxies and the big pe big tech, you know, uh people like Elon Musk they're talking about to um accelerate to um the sun energy and like receiving the energy from sun, producing energy from the Jupiter, the crazy things. So we are just like you know um expanding to the space. Things are getting more interesting. Yeah, biohacking and like longevity, they are like developing and evolving rapidly. Yes, and so we have to keep so I want to keep my curiosity with a lot of things because I want to be aware of what's happening around me. It's I am feeling you know less less anxiety if I have that information and if I trust that information. So sources and stations are really important and trust as a like you know abstract um agreement um between people is getting more important. I want to keep like uh curiosity, I I want to just like um sustain my cognitive performance for like being a sustainable artist, creator, and writer, and like I think is necessary and also like build a trust with humans.

SPEAKER_01 57:31

With humans, with other humans, yeah, with humans, yeah. I love that answer. I love that answer. Thank you. Um I mean and the very last question is kind of in the same vein, you kind of answered it already, but if you could imagine, right? If we can have our guests and like our listeners like um imagine a sustainable future, what does that look like to you? If you just want to paint a quick picture.

SPEAKER_03 57:56

Quick picture is basically like together.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Yeah, together.

SPEAKER_03 58:02

Together, definitely together. At the beach or you know, on the desert, yeah, or like you know, top of the mountain. Yeah, but stuck together.

SPEAKER_01 58:14

I love that. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 58:17

Thank you. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

I can't wait to see what Humanarium does. Um, so I hope that everyone can follow your work and read your writing on Apostol and CNN Turk. You just have to translate it. Yeah, if you don't speak uh Turkish, right? Um, but yeah, thank you so much for the work that you're pouring into this new uh chapter that we're that we're in. Thank you for having me. Oh, so good. How do you feel? Good, yeah, great conversation. Oh, I'm so happy we did it.

SPEAKER_03 59:00

Me too. Thank you so much. Absolutely.