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Occasionally Perfect
Occasionally Perfect is a podcast hosted by Lexsi Lewis for honest conversations about evolving, aligning, and figuring it out as we go. New episodes every Tuesday!
Occasionally Perfect
Why Women Are Being Diagnosed with ADHD So Late
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A year after being diagnosed with ADHD, Lexsi Lewis sits down with ADHD coach and late-diagnosed woman Joree Houlihan to talk about what no one prepares you for after the diagnosis.
From grieving the life you could've had, to learning why traditional productivity advice never worked, to understanding time blindness, burnout, relationships, procrastination, and the hidden strengths of the ADHD brain. This conversation goes far beyond labels.
Whether you've been diagnosed, suspect you might have ADHD, or have simply spent years wondering why life feels harder than it seems for everyone else, this episode offers practical tools, validation, and a completely different way of looking at yourself.
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Hey, it's your girl, Lexi Lewis, and welcome to Occasionally Perfect. So today's a special one for me. We are coming up on my one-year anniversary of being diagnosed with ADHD. And honestly, I thought I'd feel more settled by now, but lately I've been feeling more overwhelmed than ever. Um, as I just moved to a new city, I'm building a new business from the ground up, and my daughter has been putting me through it. So yeah, I just a lot's been happening. And because of all that, I really wanted to go have a deep dive today. Not just the surface level stuff, but really get into what it looks like to live with late diagnosis. The things you start to learn about yourself, the moments where it all starts to click. And honestly, I just really wanted to hear from someone who's a few steps ahead of me on this journey. And that is exactly why I brought today's guest on. Jory Hulahan is an ADHD life coach, podcast host, and a late diagnosed woman herself. She has been living with this, learning this, and helping other women through this for a few years now. And I'm fresh. So, like, really fresh. So having someone like Jory here to help me go deeper feels exactly what I need right now. And maybe it's exactly what you need too. So, Jory, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. Oh, okay. So I have been so excited for this episode because since I've got diagnosed, I don't think I've spoken to anyone yet that's has a DHG, that's like in my circle, or at least that's been late diagnosed. So I'm mostly just having internet friends now. So it's nice, it's nice like, oh my god, you've been here with me. One thing that I really want to just start with is I'm curious, because you got diagnosed at 49. And I feel like at that point, people start to get like, this is who I am, this is like I don't need a new definition of my life. I don't need to like take me how you take me on, take me as I am. So what made you go, I think, I think I might have this. And not only do I have it, I want to, I want to claim it and actually work on whatever I need to work on, what comes that with that diagnosis. What made you get to that point at 49?
SPEAKER_00That's a really great question. So the first time I talked to a doctor about it, I was 19. And I was out of hand dismissed and basically just told, well, you're in college now, right? And I, but I also couldn't explain exactly what was going on. It just felt like mush coming out of my mind. Something's just different. And I was like, how do you explain this to people, you know? And over the years, I would I was thinking about this on the way here, laughing about how often I would be like on the L to go to the doctor, and I'd be like, you know what, I should bring this up with the doctor. And it was out of my head before I even got to the next L stop. You know, and after I'd leave, I'd go, Oh, I forgot, you know. And so I would bring it up here and there, and I was always given some variation on, you know, well, you just have too much on your plate, which was not the case. And then uh I got into the the last time I talked to a doctor prior to my diagnosis was eight years before I was diagnosed. And I had a son who was about nine months old, and I knew what he was gonna say before he even said it, which was, Well, you have a kid now. I was like, Yeah, I know, but I was always struggling with this, but now it's like exponentially worse. And he just was like, No, I'm not worried about you. And I was like, Okay, well, maybe I just don't adult well. And that was really how I thought about it.
SPEAKER_05For me too, it was just when I had a kid, I started to get way more overwhelmed, where it made me feel like maybe this is something else. Because it can't be that everyone is momming and it feels like this.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I didn't realize how emotionally dysregulated I was. Like I knew I was dysregulated, but I didn't know that could be connected to ADHD. Yeah, I didn't know that was part of ADHD at the time. And I got into my 40s, and I now have two kids, and I am looking at my life and thinking, is this really all I'm capable of? I just thought I would do so much more with my life. And I started to get really depressed, actually. And then COVID hit, and you know, as with everybody, all our worlds converged into one. And one night, my husband was laughing at some video, and he at the time hated social media, so I was like, What are you looking at? And he said, TikTok, and I was like, ugh, and I had been avoiding TikTok like the plague because I knew it was the exact kind of thing I'd get addicted to. But sure enough, I ended up on there and I ended up almost immediately in ADHD TikTok. Their algorithm is frightening. Yeah. Anyway, but it was not the obvious signs of ADHD that made me reconsider it, it was the not so obvious signs. So things like um that out of sight, out of mind is actually part of ADHD, and that it includes people. That is that hit me really hard too. Yeah. I was like, oh my gosh, that explains a whole lot. And anecdotal communication. So, you know, you have somebody who says, Oh, you know, they start complaining about something their partner did, and you've been through something similar. So you start telling them, Oh, I've been through that, and you start to tell them the story because you're trying to connect with them. It turns out they think you're just taking over the conversation. And I was devastated by that. I was like, oh my god, I have literally communicated this way my entire life.
SPEAKER_05There was this random episode of Tyra Banks interviewing, and it was going all over the internet of being people being like, She always has a story for everybody. And I'm like, that's nice. Yeah. I'm like, that's bad. Oh my god, that one hit for me too. Cause I was like, that is just relating. Like, I mean, we're on the same level. I've experienced what you've experienced. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I just thought, how do you get to know people better if you don't talk about the things you have in common? It's like, I see you. Yeah, exactly. And so that is one I admittedly still struggle with, but so at that point, I was like, okay, I'm really pretty sure I have this. And then I am in a mastermind with two women, and I don't know what I did, but I said, Oh, sorry, I think I have ADHD, just sort of half joking. And one of the women in there, she said, actually, I think you do, and I think it's why you struggle so much. And I think you're always going to flounder until you get this figured out. And people go, geez, I'm like, it's one of the reasons she's my friend.
SPEAKER_05Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I mean, she's very direct, and you never you never question where where she's coming from. And I was just like, Okay, I really need to. And it turns out she had ADHD. She was also diagnosed late. And so she understood what was what was happening. And so I was like, all right, but it was COVID and it was still fairly early, and people weren't really getting in to see doctors yet. So I had to go through an online company, but I was like, whatever, if it gets the ball rolling, and that's how I finally got my diagnosis. And it was almost anticlimactic. I think I would have been more surprised if they had said I didn't have it, but um, but it got the ball rolling and it changed my life.
SPEAKER_05When you got diagnosed, did you go right into getting meds? Did you No. No. I so like you got diagnosed, but then what did you do?
SPEAKER_00Did you think differently? Did you initially I felt relief like okay, my entire life makes sense now? Yeah, I can stop taking all these personal development courses that are not designed for me. I can't even tell you how much money I've spent on.
SPEAKER_04So many courses.
SPEAKER_00Oh my gosh. So much money and time. No, so many. And I was like, oh, I can stop doing that. And in my brain, I thought, well, now that I know what this is, I can totally handle this on my own. And it was actually worse because now I I'm like, I don't have an excuse now. I know what it is. So I have to, I have to have it together. And it just was not happening. And a few months later, the same friend in the mastermind, she called me. And without even saying hello, she's like, You haven't started Med yet, have you? And I was like, is that obvious? Just like a little bit. And she's like, Look, I don't think you're gonna need that much, but I think it's really going to help. And and she's like, and then if it doesn't work, then you'll know that too.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I was like, all right, fine. And so, um, and so I started taking medication. And to say that it was a life changer is an understatement. I had no idea what it would do. And that's actually when I first got angry about the fact that I had that it took so long to get diagnosed. Yes. Because I'm like, wait, this is what people work with naturally?
SPEAKER_03And that's like yes, naturally kills me.
SPEAKER_05I know. It's like stabs me in the heart because that hurt. I'm like, you just wake up every day and just do things, things are just in order, and you're like, I gotta do this, and you just check it off.
SPEAKER_00And then, oh my god, this is I was like, oh my gosh. And it was so it was just I couldn't believe I remember like two days in, and I was like, I I kind of feel like working out. Oh, you know, I better, I better hurry up and do that before that goes away, right? Because I was so used to motivation being so fleeting. And then I worked out constantly, like after that, and because it was a really good combination for me, the medication plus exercise. Last year I stopped because I got bored and I it took me a while to realize why I wasn't working out. I'm like, why am I not working out? I used to love doing this, and I'm like, oh, I'm bored, I'm tired of working out at home. So I finally just joined a gym again, thank goodness. But um, but it was to just it the anger was like, wait, so I've been living my life with my hands tied behind my back and not realizing it. Yeah. And how did nobody see this? And and it was interesting the reactions I would get from people because some people would be like, you don't have that. Yeah. And a lot of people were like, Oh, you didn't know? And I'm like, You knew and didn't tell me?
SPEAKER_03Like, what?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so it was, it's, you know, the grieving period is very real after the diagnosis. And I I always tell people, like, it's okay to experience that. You just don't want to get stuck there.
SPEAKER_05Yeah. Um for me, I'm finding again, I'm I'm fresh in my first year, I'm finding it like go in and out because there is the process of, oh, I'm excited because now I know. But then you get have the anger of I didn't, I everyone else is like this, and I just have to figure it out. And then one thing that you really said that just hit me right now is to basically where I am at is like finding how to actually manage it on my own. Because I think what you said of okay, now that I know I have it, I can just figure out how to do it. I'm just now in the space of figuring out, I just can't do certain things. And I'm like just accepting that. Because I'm like, at first I went like, okay, I have ADHD now, now I can do these things with ADHD because I know. I'm like, actually, nope, I can't do these things. There are some things that I can't do, and that's been weird for me to be like, there's things that I can't do, but I'm so smart, I'm so capable. I can't they can do it.
SPEAKER_00Why can't I do it? Yeah, and see, I was sort of the opposite. I spent most of my life thinking I wasn't that smart because I struggled with simple things. And I was the only one of my friends, not in the National Honor Society and things like that. And I just really struggled with school because sitting in a classroom was really hard. Yeah. And and but if I really liked it, right, then I did really well in it, which is very par for the course for us. But I spent most of my life just not really thinking I was that bright. And then after I got my diagnosis and I started to figure some things out, I'm like, I'm actually really bright. Like, why didn't I know this all my life? I think it would have been so different, you know. And it was the the the point that you just made about how like I, you know, I can there's it is hard sometimes to say I can't do this. Yeah, because I I should be like everyone could do it. And one thing I know is that women with especially late diagnosed ADHD, we are really good at being terrible about asking for help. Yes, I yeah, and um so that again, I can do this myself. I'll just work 20 hours, I'll just yeah, I'll figure it out, you know. But until you understand what your ADHD looks like, it is really hard. Like the internet has all of this information out there, which can get really overwhelming, first of all. But also, if you're just trying everything to see what sticks without really getting to understand your brain first, most people will then say, see, I failed again. I failed again, I failed again. And it's not I'm right there right now. Yeah, I'm like it's I'm there, it's not you. It is how I usually explain it is you know, while the rest of the world has a PC brain, we have Macs. But the Mac brain isn't the problem. The problem is we were given the PC manual to work with. So you are trying to use a keyboard that does different things on a Mac than it does on the PC.
SPEAKER_04This is supposed to be right-click. Like, yeah.
SPEAKER_00So, and I mean of course, everybody's brain works differently on some capacity, but ours works very differently. Yeah. And it's also a spectrum. So things that may be a big struggle for me may not be as much of a struggle for you, and then vice versa for other things. And so I have to, when I'm working with clients, the very first thing we work on is self-awareness. Because for people whose brains want to pay attention to everything, we are spectacularly unself-aware. And so, you know, it is a poorly, poorly named condition because it's not that we have a deficit of attention, our brains actually want to pay attention to everything. Everything.
SPEAKER_05That's interesting. That's interesting. Oh, what is that? Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_04Like a squirrel, like, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And so it just that kind of sets people already off in the wrong direction. And um, but when I work with them on self-awareness, I'm like, okay, so I have them track time, for example, and I don't have them track everything because they're never gonna do it, but I'm like, think about where you lose time the most, right? Like in your day. So let's say it's in the morning. I want you to time, like, write down, and they have to write it down, not keep it in their head, because externalize your thoughts. That's one thing I will say across the board. Externalize your thoughts. But I will say, write down how long you think it will take, that task, then how long it actually takes, and then write out the difference. And that's where you'll start to, that's where you'll see what the trends are, right? And so for most people that lose time in the morning, it's in the shower. They're like, I thought I was only in there for five minutes and it was 20. Right. Oh. And because time blindness is a very real thing. And so then they start to see, like, when it's a task that they enjoy or they're indifferent to, they tend to underestimate by usually about half. So they think, oh, this will take 10 minutes and it'll take 20. And if it's a one-off, right? If it's a one-tast thing where you're off, that's one thing. But if it's your whole day, then that's why you're always behind. If it is a non-preferred task, they overestimate how long it will take, sometimes by as much as three times. So something that legitimately will take 10 minutes, they think will take 30.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And that's where procrastination kicks in.
SPEAKER_05That's that's me. Oh my god, that's me on this back end stuff for the the podcast. It's like, even I actually know that it's gonna take long, but I know that it shouldn't take long, but I don't know that it's gonna take as long as I as even though I know it's gonna be longer. Yeah, I'm like, because when I finally like, oh no, we'll lock in, and I'm like, that literally was 10 minutes, and I've been doing this all day. I've been doing it. I think honestly, it's interesting because in LA I am around a lot of entrepreneurs and just creatives in general. So I also feel like I wasn't really seeing it as much because we're all just there's a lot of creative ADHDers out there. So it's kind of like, oh, that's just how it is. But actually moving to Chicago and having more friends that are in corporate and that have a like I get off at five o'clock, because most of my friends just our hours are whenever we make them. So I never thought about like just setting my hours. And then now that I have a daughter now and she's in her after-school activities and stuff, I'm like, wait, my my nights are not with her if I'm sitting here doing work. I'm like, wait, I know there's a balance of entrepreneurship. I'm like, but I'm really doing it. Like if I'm not actively going to take her somewhere, I'm just always working. Like, this can't, it's insustainable. That's not right. No, I shouldn't be doing it this much.
SPEAKER_00And we have a very high burnout rate. Yeah. Um, because we well, and it's it's so multi-layered because part of it is the time blindness, right? We're like, oh, well, okay, this is taking way longer. So I guess I'll work late, you know, or I'll come in early, that kind of thing. But there's also this deep-seated fear of people thinking that you're lazy or incompetent. And I've been called lazy as an adult. Yes. And so it is really, and that is very internalized, especially with women. And so, you know, and that's also part of why we don't ask for help is this fear of that we're people are gonna accuse us of being lazy or that, because I think too, we have probably asked for help on something, and they're like, What do you need help with this for? This is easy. Right. And okay, you know, and it's like, but what's funny is that like we are great in emergencies, right? But then like laundry brings me to my knees, right? It's like, it's like, how is how does that happen?
SPEAKER_05You know? I think I've been blessed. The one of the reasons why I've always like felt smart is I've been in rooms with people that are just top of whatever field they're in, and I just can always hold conversations with them. And that's always been my favorite thing about myself, is like, oh, I can talk to anyone. And the more that I talk to people, I'm like, oh yeah, and I'll have some random thing that I was really curious about for two weeks. And I'll be like, Did you know about this? And so I could teach, I could teach the specialist something. They're like, I've never heard of this, and then they'll email me or message me back and be like, oh, I never even knew about this. And I'm like, yeah, like our random interest, I think, is really what makes us innovators because we're seeing all these things where when you're specializing in something, you didn't even know that these other people were working on this. So I have always seen that, and probably I'm a Leo, so I'm like a little bit like I'm amazing. But I've always had that, and so it really, it's been really weird my last, especially just becoming a mother, and actually, I'm gonna go back ADHD a moment, but growing up, I was very like involved in everything. I had sport for every season, I was in every kind of club, I was, I was just busy. So I think I had like a thriving environment for ADHD. I was living in my prime, and I don't want to be like, oh, I loved high school. Yeah, but you were I had structure and variety.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And literally every season. So even now in my life where I'm like, okay, I'm like, okay, why do I like that? Why did I like this period so much? So how you were saying you got tired of working out at home, I'm thinking, okay, maybe every season, like it's nice outside now. Maybe I'll run and play tennis in the summers and then I'll go lift weights in the wintertime. So getting that kind of structure of variety and I can have consistency for three months, but then after that, I might need to switch it up. And that doesn't mean that, oh, I can't do this anymore. It just means I need to do something a little like, you know, pivot. I just wanted to take a quick moment to ask you something. If anything you have heard so far in this episode is speaking to you, I really want you to think about who else needs to hear this. Maybe you know someone who has been struggling since their late diagnosis and just feeling lost. Maybe you know someone who has been considering getting evaluated and just has not taken the next step. Or maybe you just want people in your life to understand you a little bit better. Share this episode with them. Send it to a friend, to a family member, a loved one, someone in your community. You never know whose life that one share could change. Okay, now let's get back into it.
SPEAKER_00Yes, understanding that our brains run on novelty, right? It needs to be, we either have to have interest, it needs to be novel, challenging, or urgent. Those are the four things that will get us to do the thing, whatever it is. And then there's also, I add a fifth one, which is external accountability. Yes. To me, that is another That's huge as an entrepreneur, especially. Yes. To me, it is non-negotiable if you have ADHD. You need to be have somebody who you know you touch base with, whether it's daily, weekly, whatever it is, somebody you have a lot of respect for that you don't want to like look bad in front of, maybe somebody of fear a little bit, but whatever. But like somebody that you know isn't gonna be like, oh, it's okay, right? Like, you need to have that because it we do not we don't listen to our own deadlines, we blow right through them, you know. Yes, and we say yes to too many things because we tend to become people pleasers and we're not great with confrontation, and there's a there's a whole lot of things. So when you have external accountability, that's why my mastermind that I'm in that changed my life that alone because I when I when my friend asked me to be in it, I she knew at the time I didn't really, I was sort of like trying to I was switching through careers and whatever, and I didn't have much going on. And I'm like, she knows this. Why is she asking me to be in this? Because masterminds are like I'm gonna do something after.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like it's the real deal. Like, you gotta show, do what you said you're gonna do. And I was like, oh my God. But I was like, well, you know, she's really smart and she's asking me, and I'm like, okay. So I call her and leave a message. I'm like, okay, I'll do it. And then I hung up, and I'm like, okay, how do I get out of this? I was terrified of it because I had never been accountable to myself. And so the very first meeting, I was like, I'm just sort of recalibrating my life. And this was before my diagnosis. And they were like, okay, so what are you gonna do? And I was like, okay. So it was like at the time low-hanging fruit, but it was low-hanging fruit I couldn't get myself to do. And then I was starting to do it because I didn't want my friend to look bad. That was the thing. Cause I was like, I don't want to make her look bad. She invited me into this. And then I started being like, hey, I did the things. Okay. And then I started to look forward to the meetings because now I can say I did the things. And and it just sort of built on itself. And they are really good at saying, Hey, you're getting sidetracked. Yeah. You said you were going to do this, and now all of a sudden you're working on this over here. What's going on?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so that has been very helpful for me because we do. We sometimes end up on these side quests and we don't even realize it's happening. Yeah. And but it's given us a lot of dopamine, and that's all our brain is thinking about. And so I'm like, oh, you're right. Okay. And then I can get myself refocused on what I really need to be working on. Yeah.
SPEAKER_05I also notice a lot of times I can rationalize the side thing because I'm like, it actually has to do with this. Because if I really do this and I could add this into this, then like, but this part's not done yet. And I'm like, you're right. Yeah. You're right. You're right. It's that accountability of the person is so huge. And again, my trigger is I go back to my high school. I'm like, okay, well, I always had coaches. And I had when they when someone would tell me this is what I need from you, I'm like, yes, I got it. Like, I, but when I'm saying I need it for myself, I'm like, ooh, um, okay, well, do I, or maybe I, you know, I can negotiate with he said I can I can go back with myself. So yeah, having that accounting person I'm seeing is such a different maker. And then also surrounding myself with the people that are more structured. I'm that made me realize, like, hold on. Because I tell all my friends from LA now, I'm like, I feel like people are really adults in Chicago. I'm like, I feel like this is where I needed to come to become to grow up because like people expect more things. There's just like the LA was the wrong place for someone with ADHD and no accountability person to be.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I mean, we all like, you know, but going back to what you had asked before about like, you know, understanding there's some things you can't do, right? Yes. And I'm a big believer that ADHD is an explanation, but it's not an excuse. And so I say that all the time. And so, but what's interesting is when people first get diagnosed, a lot of times they will be accused of blaming everything on their ADHD. And I said, I don't think you're actually blaming it. I think you're naming it because you're discovering it too. Because it is in literally every single area of your life. It keeps popping up.
SPEAKER_04I'm like, oh.
SPEAKER_00And so, but once you recognize it, then you do have to do something about it. So, you know, for some things, it is, you know what? This is something that I'm not good at. I don't want to get better at it. I don't think it's a good use of my time. How can I either delegate it or can I just get rid of it?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And but it's also okay to occasionally ask for help. Like, this is something I struggle with. Can you help me with this in this way? That's not you saying, Well, that's my DHD oh well, I'm not doing anything.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because there is a point like where I feel like it gets exhausting, and I was like, another thing that it's affecting. I mean, is it another thing? Because I, you know, you uh when you're a new parent or going into a new career, you just move all of the things you do struggle with. Is this just because I'm alive as a person in the world and that's experiencing whatever the discomfort is? So there's a lot of what is my ADHD versus what is this new life chapter that I'm in? So how have you found a way to kind of figure out is this a new chapter or is this my ADHD?
SPEAKER_00So I think like if I'm working with somebody and all of a sudden something's different, I'd be like, okay, so does this kind of thing happen a lot? Like, has this happened in the past? You know, or is this like a new, like, yeah, is this a new thing that's just kind of now coming in? As women get older, because perimenopause does a number on us, even without ADHD, but with ADHD, it is so much worse. Um, there was a study that just uh came out where they said that women who have ADHD experience perimenopause earlier and and more severely. And so, and we are more likely to have PMDD, right? Which is like really bad period symptoms.
SPEAKER_05Oh my god, this is I didn't know that's another thing I just learned.
SPEAKER_00So, and those are things that, but once you understand that, right, then you can go, okay, so what can I do then to help to counter that?
SPEAKER_05Um I have a rest day. I do not play about it. I will never forget in eighth grade. My basketball culture is like, just run through it. And I'm like, on my first day of my period, sometimes I literally am like, I'll throw up. I'll get really bad ones. So I'm I hope she's watching this.
SPEAKER_00I'm gonna send that to her. But it's it's good that you're like, I take a rest day because sometimes, you know it's only like every fourth one, but yeah, but again, a lot of people don't out of that fear of being labeled lazy. Our our energy is very different with ADHD. So have you ever had had this experience where like you have a day where you're just like knocking out of the park, you're just doing things left and right, and you just get all this stuff done, but then you are for shit for the next two days. Yep.
SPEAKER_03I'm like, why can't I just bottle whatever that was? Yeah.
SPEAKER_00It's like almost like I just can't literally do anything. Yeah. And so what I what I work on with clients because I'm like, okay, let's try to get it so that you have it's more even throughout the week. So it's I'm glad that you got a lot of stuff done that day, but I don't want you to feel terrible for the next two days, right? And so it's like, okay, so how can we divide up the tasks that need to get done in a way that is going to work better with your energy? So like they track their energy, and I've so I'm like, what is the time of day where like you're the most productive and you have the best energy? Because that's when you want to be doing tasks that do require more attention to detail or that are more complex, etc. And then, you know, where what times of day are you more tired? And you know, maybe that's like when you check email, or you know, you just do things that don't necessarily need like the big detail kind of things. And that will change how because so many times we are like spending all of our great focus time on emails. And I'm like, no.
SPEAKER_05And you feel the energy too, but you're like, I said I was gonna do the emails, but you feel the energy, like, oh, I thought I did this, this, and this. And then by the time I'm finally to it, I'm like burnt out. Yeah, you've already used up all that energy.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And so, you know, a lot of people will do brain dumps, which I'm a big fan of, again, externalizing your thoughts, but they will make that their to-do list. And I'm like, okay, there's like 200 things on this list.
SPEAKER_04This is like, oh my god, it's like a mirror.
SPEAKER_00So I'm like, okay, you can't do all of these things, but up until this point, right, you have spent your whole life thinking, I'm gonna get through all these things today. And then if I don't, I'm a complete loser and blah, blah, blah. Yeah. Well, no. So I always say the the the brain dump guides the to-do list. It's there so that you don't forget things that maybe you don't have to do today. Yeah. But if you don't have it written down, you're gonna forget to do it later. Yes. So I'm like, okay, take a look at the list, and then for each thing, say, what is the consequence? Like, what's the worst case scenario if I don't do this today? And most things don't have to necessarily get done that day. And so then you want to look at, okay, does this, is this like a prerequisite for something I do have to do later? Like if I can't do this thing unless I do this, okay. Well, that's a different thing, right? And then I'm like, now you have to pick only three things to look at. Yeah. See, that's a reaction I get. Like, what are you crazy? And I'm like, I'm telling you, because those three things are probably gonna take you longer than you're thinking. And then if you do complete them, or if they get as far as they can go, maybe you have to wait to hear back from somebody or something like that. Great. Now you can pick two more things from the list. And then you work on those, right? And that's how you do it. Like, and one or two things after that, person, you know, uh, and then but you also brought up a good thing of have working hours, especially if you're an entrepreneur and you work from home. Yeah, and you you like it's so important to have those work hours because you will burn yourself out so fast. The other thing is learning to take breaks because we have that fear of taking breaks. It's like, wait, no, I don't do people with HD don't take breaks. If we stop, we won't go back. And I know this so well. Yes, well, and that's the thing. I and I'm actually all for naps. I take power naps and I'm so happy that I can do that. Not everybody can. That is part of like I know around like you know, two o'clock. If I'm working from home, two o'clock, I go, okay, my energy is not great. Let me, I'm gonna take a quick nap. And then I get a little bit of whatever, and I my kids come home from school, I spend some time with them, and then maybe I get a like a second wind around four. But when I when you are working on something, it's really important to take breaks because first of all, you will you will reduce the risk of burnout. Number two, that whole you get a lot of things done on one day, but then you can't do anything for two, that becomes much less common. That's good. And um and your quality of work is better because if you keep working through it and you're tired. So when I ask people, I say, okay, the last time you did this, right? How long were you working before you took the break? And for almost everybody, it's at least two hours plus, right? Okay, during those two hours, did you hydrate? No. Did you nourish yourself? No. How long were you holding your bladder? You're like, oh my God, are you there? Yeah. It's like, it's like that's our incentive. That's like the reward. That's the reward for finishing. If I reward, if I finish it, so I can go to the bathroom. You're the only people who procrastinate pee, you know?
SPEAKER_03Actually, that's hilarious. I've never thought about it like that.
SPEAKER_00And so I'm like, okay, these are my rules for taking a break. Number one, you need to not work too long to begin with. So, like, the longest I tell you. I say, like, some people will do the pomodoro timer, which is like 25 minutes and then a five-minute break. And for some people that works really well. I say play around with the time, but I personally think don't go longer than 50 minutes to an hour. And then goodness. And then you need to time your break because you'll forget you're on a break. And and all these things I'm saying, I have lived. So there is literally no judgment with this if this is you, because I have lived it. The the next thing is you need to know exactly what you are coming back to do.
SPEAKER_05That's big.
SPEAKER_00Our brains don't work well with vagueness.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And if we're not clear on what a step is, we just are like, well, I guess I'm done. And so write it on a sticky note, put it on like if you're working on a computer, put it on your screen, don't say, Well, I'm just gonna come back and keep working.
SPEAKER_05Or it comes into that jumble and I start thinking about that list that has 200 things on it. And I'm like, I'm gonna pick, I have something to do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_05And then it's kind of like, I don't know, and then it goes to emails.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, exactly. Right. So you write it down, be specific about what you're working on, and then the big rule is no sitting. Oh, on your break. On your break, no sitting, unless it is a fairly uncomfortable dining room chair so that you can nourish yourself. Otherwise, because if the minute you sit down and you start zoom scrolling on your phone, you're done.
SPEAKER_05It's over 17 minutes ago. It was like one minute.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's and that's also why you need the timer because again, you'll forget you're on a break. And don't have it just like go off, like name the timer, be like, all right, back to work, or maybe even what you plan on working on, or whatever. But um, it is really important to do that because people, if you don't take those breaks, and I have had like every client I've ever worked with who has done it the way I've said it, has said this was more helpful than I expected it to be. Yeah, does it work every single time? No, nothing. Not even my medicine works every single time.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no. But I'm like, I did I take my allerol or not? And then I'm like, I think I took it, but I'm not feeling it.
SPEAKER_00I know. Well, the week before your cycle, it will feel like that if you still have a cycle. And then if you're in perimenopause or in menopause like I am, you spend a whole lot of time asking that question because dopamine is connected to estrogen. So when your estrogen drops, the dopamine activation is lower.
SPEAKER_05I was living with my friend and she would send me pictures and she because I would get it out and then I would go do something, and she's like, You forgot to take it. I'm like, oh dang it. I know, right? Oh, I I finally got like a pill thing so I can like see every week. I'm like, okay, I could do it on Sunday so I know if I took it or not. It but it took a couple laying around the house to get it. I actually kind of wanted to go back though, because you said something that triggered a dynamic in me in relationships when you were talking about how you'll have one really productive day and then you'll have two days of doing nothing. I feel like we're applying that to work, but it made me realize that I couldn't even talk to people. I got to a point where it would, I just would be closed off on people. I'm like, I've got to talk to everybody today, and then like this, I can't speak to anyone. And then people will be texting me in those other days, but I'm like, I don't, I can't do it. And so, how do you think just when it comes to ADHD showing up and and being able to in your relationships with your like friends and family of like, oh, I can't what it's I don't know the question, I guess. It's just how do you communicate that that's something that you strive? Yeah, because I've been talking to my friends a lot, especially especially for holidays like birthdays and Mother's Day and all the things when you're getting like a lot of text messages of Happy Mother's Day, and then they'll you know they give specialty ones, and then I'm like, okay, well, I I can't just say Happy Mother's Day. You told me I'm the most amazing mother ever, and I'm doing all these great things. So then I'm going like, I have 20 paragraphs of information to talk about. And how do I explain to friends that it's that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Without just being like, oh, it's just my ADHD, and you know what I mean. So the what how I explain it is I always say sometimes I will disappear.
SPEAKER_05Yes.
SPEAKER_00Because we forget people exist and we don't miss them. Yes. And I spent my whole life thinking I was just a really terrible person because I didn't remember things. My dad would call me and he'd be like, Yeah, just check it to make sure you're still alive. Haven't heard from you in like a month and a half. Now we realize now my dad probably had ADHD, and that's why it took him a month and a half to call me.
SPEAKER_05Oh my god, I'm waiting, I'm literally having such a moment right now because I went to boarding school my last two years or high school. Only now does my mom like call me up for stuff, and I'm realizing we've realized that she hasn't, she just hasn't got diagnosed. But I always was like, why wouldn't she check on me? Oh my god, this is healing. Hold on. Wait a minute. I didn't even think of her having. Oh my God, this is so crazy.
SPEAKER_00Oh my god. ADHD is very heritable. If one parent has it almost always at the end of the day, oh no, we've decided she hasn't.
SPEAKER_05She just said she's one of the, but oh, I didn't, I I used to get really mad. I'm like, how does she not check on me? I left so young and then I was gone away. And now I'm like, I would never have my kid away and I didn't. Oh my god, this is so healing. But yes, with people too. I always like, I know I really, really love you if I actually thought about you in six months. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right? It's like I won't think about them until somebody mentions them, and then I'll go, oh yeah. And then I will be like, I even talk, I really miss them. So what I've done for that is I have a list. No, I don't always follow the list, but I have a list of people that I really that are important to me that I really do want to at least, even if it's just a quick, hey, thinking about you kind of thing.
SPEAKER_05What do you do for me? It's like I need four hours to catch up.
SPEAKER_00Well, so so what I will do is sometimes I'll be like, hey, let's get coffee, right? That way you can like get caught up with them and it doesn't have to be over text because I hate texting.
SPEAKER_05Oh, I am I try to make fun of me because I'm like, why are you always face on like because I need to see you?
SPEAKER_00Yes, or I do voice text, and they're like, why don't you just call me then? I'm like, because then you can listen to it when it's convenient for you. Yes, but it's uncomfortable about you. Yeah, and it's too complicated to do. And like my finger, I'm like, no, I hate texting. And I overthink it, and um, we're really good at that too, overthinking everything. Um, but that way then they start staying top of mind, right? So even if I don't necessarily get around to them that month or whatever, I they're still on the list. I will do it eventually. But otherwise, like, I mean, Facebook has been a blessing and a curse because they remind you that it's someone's birthday, but then it's like, oh, I can't do it.
SPEAKER_05Or that they even exist, right?
SPEAKER_00And I'm like, oh my God, so many people that I probably would have long lost touch with that I still uh but I still know and I've watched their kids grow up and that kind of stuff because we don't live in the same areas. Right. But it it was it is that is a very real thing. And so with relationships, you know, I will explain, like, if I'm gone for too long, like don't don't hesitate to reach out, like I'm not mad, I'm not mad or whatever.
SPEAKER_05I love you, so I actually probably like that's my best friend, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And it's like, and I know it sounds terrible to be like I'm not missing you, but I I like I love them, but it's just yeah, because our brains pay attention to everything that's in front of us, if they're not there, your brain is just doesn't go there.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I'll have friends that I'll like go to every time I go to New York, I hit them up, and they're my college friends. And one of my friends, she was like, Oh, I was so happy that you hit me up. We know I I just didn't know that you would hit me. And I'm like, What are you talking about? Like, you're my one of my favorite people in the world. And so she was like, Really? And I'm like, Yeah, I'm like, I love you. I would never come to New York without seeing you. And she was just like, she thought that I wouldn't think of her anymore. Cause honestly, it probably had been a couple of years since we talked, but I'm like, no, I love you. Like, what do you mean? And I feel bad because I'm like, I don't, yeah, I just don't think to do it. But in my head, if we were good when we last talked, we're still good. There's no time can separate that. And if we come back and then it's not good, I'm like, okay, well, but if you didn't do anything, I'm still in my head, you're still one of my best friends.
SPEAKER_00Yes. And what's interesting is that I have found, especially with people who also have ADHD, even if they don't know it, you could go two years without talking and then you connect, and it's like no time has passed at all. Yeah. And and both people feel that way. Yes. And it's just the weirdest thing. But time is very different for us. So, you know, there's now and there's not now, and not now doesn't exist. Yeah, right. Exactly. So, like, even if it's in the same day, right? You know, it could be five minutes from now, depending on the thing. But how it changes, like, you know, they say that as you get older, time moves faster. And like my son just graduated high school. Yeah, kids, and I and I've I've had friends say, Oh, high school goes so fast, and I was like, Yeah, okay, whatever. No joke. But there's so many things that I kept thinking, oh, we still have time, we have time, we have time. And and for us, like when I think about how fast just even the last four years have gone, and then I think, is this faster or slower than somebody who doesn't have ADHD? But it is very we have to be careful with the procrastination with that part of it because we keep saying, Oh, I'll do that later, oh, I'll do that later, and then next thing you know, it's six months, and you're like, wait, how did six months pass? And it's so fast. And you know, that that's one of the ADHD taxes, right? Like, we don't, oh okay, I'll pay that bill, I'll pay that bill, I'll get around to it, I'll get around to it, and then it's late. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_05And so then when you have a Oh my god, and I did that that, and I always lose my debit card. So then I even if I put it on, I'm like, it's on, it's already taken care of. And I'm like, wait, why did I just get an email? Oh my god, I forgot to update the card. Yeah, I mean, yeah, the ADHD is taxes are real, and I mean I always talk about this with friends and stuff. I'm like, I have to have money because the amount of late fees or things parking tickets, pardoning tickets. I have to pay right. I take it off my car and I have to pay it right then because there's no other way that it's gonna get paid unless my car is like. I've been that's one of my really big things about the now though. If if it's something I can take care of right now, let's take care of it right now. If one thing that I've been getting better with friendships is if they hit me and were like, oh, we should plan something, and I'm like, no, let's let's put it on the calendar. Like, let's actually put it on the calendar so we can have it planned out. That's been so big for me, where it's been I've been able to like show up as the person that I want to show up as. It's like, no, let's not say we're gonna catch up, let's like plan the day to have a talk, especially now because being in Chicago and most of my friends are in LA. So I'm like, no, let's schedule it. Like, let's be intentional with talking and stuff. And even with my daughter, I'll like schedule times to catch up because if it's on the count, I love a calendar now.
SPEAKER_00I yeah, I I learned pretty early, like if it's not in my calendar, it doesn't exist. It really exists on there. Yeah, it really does. But what I was finding was when they'd say, Oh, well, make an appointment with yourself. No, that I didn't. Yeah. If it's with other people, I'm on it. But yeah.
SPEAKER_05That's why the when you're saying about finding someone outside of yourself, it it is because it's not that I don't like love myself and think that I'm urgent or whatever, but it's kind of the shame of I want you to see me away, so I'm gonna remember to do whatever I say with you. I think that's kind of a little bit of myself, and I've always tried to make businesses with my friends or just always want to do something with them. I'm like, I need a way to make me accountable, but myself is never gonna be the reason. And I know that I want all the success and all of the wonderful things for myself, but if I only make that with myself, it's not happening. So how can I bring anyone else along with me? It's so I can at least be like, I gotta be the leader for them, I gotta show up for them.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's well, and especially because success with anything does require consistency, which we are not great at, especially if it gets boring, right? Especially when it's for it, yeah. And so you have to find the things that will get you to do the things, right? When it is in that boring phase, because every business, every whatever, the you have the boring phases, right? And some of the things you can't delegate, so you have to do it yourself, and so that's why that external accountability is really good because if nothing else, it's like I gotta do this so I don't look bad in front of them, or I don't want to have to say I didn't do it, right?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because oh me say I didn't do it.
SPEAKER_00Oh no, yeah, but there are we are, I think, like five times more likely to be entrepreneurs, people with ADHD, and yet we have the worst executive functioning to do it, right? And so that's why it is so important to understand what are your strengths, not just what are your challenges, what are your strengths? Yeah. One of the things that's really sad is when I get a new client, I always ask them, like, so tell me what your strengths are, and they never have any. And I have been like, how do I get people to come see me before they feel completely broken? Because that is like there's just so much more to you have to work through so much more at that point. And I'm always like, You're not broken, you just have a different operating system, and you need to figure out how that works, right? But I'm very big on you know, working with me is no, it's a no-shame zone, right? Like there's no shame, whatever. And I can't tell you how often I've had people say, It's so refreshing to talk about this and not feel ashamed for it. Yeah, but it's still, you know, like I said, if you don't do the homework, don't not come to our session, right? Because that's a good that's easy. Because that will tell that tells me something. Okay, so what was the struggle? What were you feeling resistance to? Yeah, right. And those are the things, and you always want to do it from this lens of curiosity, whatever it is. Because we have we are our own worst bullies in the world. I mean, it's like whatever someone said to me, it's like, oh, I already thought about that 10 10 years ago. I would never speak to another person the way I talk to myself sometimes. And so learning to give yourself grace, learning to just ask curious questions. Okay, I'm feeling resistance to doing this. What am I feeling resistance to? Something's going on here, right? And usually it comes down to one of four things. Either the task feels too boring after time. Well, yeah, I'm like, that's usually the last one I'll bring up. Like it's boring and there's no dopamine in it. It feels too big, it feels like it's gonna take too much time, or you're not sure what the next step is. And so if you can kind of break it down into one of those four, then you can do something about it, right? So if it's boring and you don't have to do it yourself, then maybe that's something you can delegate, or you gamify it. And then you have to play around with what works for you. Like some people love rewards. I, you know, if I'm like, okay, if I do this, I get a cookie. Yeah, I'm just gonna eat the cookie. Like, I'm just gonna eat the cookie. I bought the cookies already. I can eat the cookie.
SPEAKER_04I'm just gonna eat the cookie.
SPEAKER_05Who cares about this other thing? Yeah, that's gamifying doesn't work for me either. Because it's again, it's to myself. I already take care of everything, I could do anything.
SPEAKER_00Well, it sort of depends for me. So some of my gamifying is also making it challenging. So, for example, like cleaning the bathroom is like one of my least favorite things to do. So I'll be like, okay, and I get my visual timer, always have like visual uh analog everything, and I will set it for 15, 20 minutes, I'll be like, okay, how much of this can I get done in 15 and 20 minutes? I have a raise, that's good. Yeah, so it's it's a little challenging, right? And a little urgency there. So that is what gets me to do it. Cause I'm like, because I'm very competitive with myself in that respect. So I'm like, okay, and then if I think I remember to do it, I'll try to remember a before and after picture because then I really is like, oh yeah, okay, I got a lot to do. You swipe them back and forth.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Um, but then you know, if it feels too big, okay, well, let's break it down a little bit, you know. If it feels like it's gonna take too much time, okay, so just work on it for commit to doing it for five minutes or even two minutes, you know, 30 seconds if you have to. Because what people don't realize, I don't know if this is true for people without ADHD, but for people with ADHD, the motivation never comes first. The momentum has to come first. And that is what brings the motivation. So if you think about it, like so the example I use a lot is when I'm doing laundry, laundry is my nemesis and it will taunt me for weeks. And then I am like, okay, I just I need to do this. And so I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna hang or fold three things. And then if I'm truly done, then I'm done. And I did what I committed to. But more often than not, I go, okay, okay, I can do three more. And then I'll be like, all right, I can do three more. And then the next thing you know, it's done. And so getting started is always the hardest part because the dopamine is what gives you the motivation. Yeah. And we're low. Like it doesn't we have low activation of it. And so when you can find that workaround of like, okay, just take the smallest possible step just to like get moving a little bit and just see what happens, right? That's usually all people need.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, they always say that when I get motivated to clean your house, invite some friends over. Oh, we do that all the time.
SPEAKER_00We're like, okay, we need to have somebody over.
SPEAKER_05See, let me, you know, who's coming on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, my husband and I do that. We're like, okay, we need to have people over. The house is a mess, you know.
SPEAKER_05No, it's so funny, like, there's just so many random ways to go. I think that's what's interesting too about ADHD being the spectrum, is there's so many things online of I can try this and I can try this and I can try this. And then that overwhelm does start to come when you're less like, okay, it's not working. I don't, I don't, is it kind of just like a trial and error thing? I mean, I guess you kind of said really learning yourself first.
SPEAKER_00Yes, and understanding that it will work until it doesn't. Because that's the thing. Yes. Because we have a brain that runs on novelty. But here's the thing this is what people tend to do. We also have all or nothing thinking. Okay. So we we have the things here. We have a system, and then one day it doesn't work, we're like, see, the whole system's work, and we throw the whole system out.
SPEAKER_05Oh my god, this is like my first five businesses. I'm like, you know, we gotta change the whole thing.
SPEAKER_00Yes, yes. And so it's like, okay, no, we don't have to do that. So let's take a look. It was working fine until what point, right? Okay, so maybe that point just needs to be tweaked. Yeah, you know, maybe it's just a cog in the machine, not the whole machine, right? Sometimes you do have to throw the whole thing out. But so for example, this is a this is an easy one. So reminders, right? After a while, first of all, don't have reminders for everything because your brain will tune it out so fast. Yeah, have it for just the really important things you do need to remember. If you have an iPhone, they now have a setting that says urgent, so it will stay on your screen. It won't beep necessarily, but it will stay. So every time you pick up your phone, you'll be like, Oh yeah, I still have to do that thing. But uh if you start tuning them out because you just don't hear the sound anymore, like change up the ringtone. And then your brain will go, oh, what's that? And that will get your attention again, right? Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna do the thing because we also don't like being told what to do. And so I promise we're amazing though. We really are. We'll talk about strengths here in a second, but that one is one that I did a real once where I was talking about how like we're resistant to things like alarms and timers because they are basically telling us what to do. You're literally making so many things. I'm sorry. But like that we don't like being told what to do. Like, I didn't even think of an alarm in that way of being my boss, yeah. And think about like something that you maybe even wanted to do, but if somebody tells you to do it before you get around to it, then your brain's doing that. What do you mean? And then your brain's like, Well, I'm not doing it now, you know.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I just I had a in high school, my mom got to a point where she had to start waking me up again because I started to just dream about my alarm. And I feel like it's so I'm so defined that my dream is like, no, in my dream, I would hear it and I would just be running to find it. And so I was in a journey, I'm like, I'm not getting up. I hated morning so much, and I was like, I'll get there when I need to get there. Like, oh my god, that's so funny. I never thought of it as being like a little boss to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we don't we don't like that, but but in terms of like when things like if things stop working, just remember you're not broken. The system just needs a little tweaking, it's gonna happen your entire life. Because also, too, we evolve and we just change and our brains change and everything else. So sometimes something that's been working for a really long time suddenly doesn't. It just means maybe you've evolved and you just need to to have that evolve with you.
SPEAKER_05I think that's a good just perspective in general to just I can't get used to whatever I'm system I'm using, but I can get used to them to the fact that I'm gonna have to change, and that is it's not it's not working. So, okay, oh, it's a time to change it again. And and thinking more of it in that way, we're like, oh, it was working and now it's not. And what did I do wrong? Yeah, yeah. And I'm broken. I love that. I I think I kind of had it a little bit when I realized that, like, oh, I had a sport every season and I liked it because you'd have preseason, then you had a season, then you have a championship, and then it's like, all right, next for the time for the next season. So I think, yeah, just being comfortable with the idea that things are gonna keep changing is such a little switch that makes such a difference in how I'm judging me not liking this activity that I used to like. That's so good.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's really I it because we actually really do have a lot of strengths. Like, you know, we are very creative, we are creative problem solvers. Yeah, we see we have great pattern recognition, we see gaps where that's one of the reasons that we're really good at that's why we become entrepreneurs part of is because we're not always great with like you know, people and corporate stuff. But it's also, you know, we will see a gap in a company that we're working with all the time. And all the time. I have told, you know, business leaders, I'm like, you need to pay attention to your neurodivergent people because they're trying to tell you things, and what's gonna happen is they're gonna quit and they're smarter than you, and they're gonna fix the problem, and then they're gonna do better in their business than you're doing in yours. So they're gonna become your competition. Yeah. So you need to pay attention to what they're telling you because very often they you know we get dismissed.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, it's I mean, I think about even my friends, like I always say one of my strengths is I was like, Oh, if you come to me and talk to me for five minutes, I can and you don't know what you want to do about a problem, I will find the solution for you. I'll see it so I see the solution to things instantly. Yeah, because it's just like this is this is this problem. Okay, well, you gotta do that and put that together. Like, oh my God. Yeah, that's exactly.
SPEAKER_00I'm like, if you've been trying to solve a problem and you've been using logic, come to me and I will find a way to do it.
SPEAKER_05And yeah, and they're like, I just didn't think of so many people that I feel like are smarter than me or at least more educated to me, they'll come to me about something, and I'm like, Yeah, why don't you just do it like that? And they're like, oh my God.
SPEAKER_00And it's because we see these things and and we do have a lot of energy, and and when we are using our energy properly, right? And we come up with really great ideas. We are great storytellers and tangents and all. I'm like, yeah, well, you need you need the backstory, but you're gonna be in the environment. You're gonna be invested.
SPEAKER_04You're gonna invest all the characters what happened to them when they grew up, because it's important for the plot. Yes, exactly.
SPEAKER_00Because our brains can't prioritize in real time. So we think every detail of the story is vital to the telling of the story.
SPEAKER_05And yeah, but we'll have the energy to back it. That's true, though, because that's what my friends will always say too. It's just like there's the energy of like when we're passionate about something, the passion. If you want someone selling something that blade, if they believe in your product, like get a neodivergent person because we are gonna just sell it to the gods. Yes, seriously. When we believe it's a good product, oh my goodness. Because you can only see like this is the problem that you this is the this is the solution for your problem. This is it, and no one's gonna be more passionate about finding a solution to a problem, exactly.
SPEAKER_00And you mentioned something earlier about how like one of your passion projects or whatever, and so you were passionate about it for like two weeks, but you learned everything about it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, because there's not because you're learning in a not framework kind of thing, you get to go where your curiosity goes. Oh, the ragged. And it goes like this. Where if if you have a curriculum, let's I always say this is a thankful thing of not schooling, because with schooling, you definitely feel like there's not holes in your learning, which is great, and you need that, especially if you're a specialist and you're gonna be working in the capacity with someone else. So I want you to be specialized in it. I want you to have a minimum amount of education in something, but it's still like a lot of times it gets to be where you look, you went down this road and you've like, okay, well, I did what I needed to do, so now I know what I needed to know. I'm like, but you didn't think about this. Yeah. So that curiosity really leads you to things that are again are not maybe just right here, but it's adjacent to it and it's related to it. And that actually might be the thing that solves the problem because you didn't even know this existed.
SPEAKER_00And because we created a neural pathway learning how one thing related to another kind of thing, then when we are seeing it, might not necessarily be apples to apples, but when we see it in a different context out in the real world, we go, Oh, wait, let's try this. And you don't even know necessarily that that's where it came from. Yeah. But our brains just our brains are we have it's very fast connections. So I saw this reel that was awesome, and he was talking about what he called dolphining. And he was talking about how like somebody will be talking, and then somebody with ADHD will suddenly come up with a topic that's over here somewhere, and they're like, How did you get there? Well, it's because you said something that really made them think, and they have all these connections going, and so like a dolphin going underwater, and that while they're underwater, they're thinking about all these different things, and when they pop back up, they know how they got there. Yeah, and I will I can almost guarantee anybody else in the conversation who is neurodivergent will also know how they got there. Neurotypical will not. They'll be like, wait, how what? And then when I explain it to them, they're like, Oh, okay. Like they get it, but they're like, What?
SPEAKER_04But I don't know why that encouraged that, but okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but again, though, like I think it helps us come up, we're we're innovators, we're inventors, we're writers, we're very creative, so many creatives. Um, and we are we have to me, we are incredibly resilient because we have to be. Yeah, we're very persistent because we have to be, and we have a really great sense of humor because we have to have one. But those are all really great qualities. And I want to be around people that have a sense of humor. Exactly. And in spite of the fact that we may forget you exist, we are very loyal to our friends. Yeah. We are very good friends. We struggle though with the little things like remembering somebody's birthday or just the communication aspect.
SPEAKER_05Yeah because I'm definitely I'm gonna like all of my friends are like, Why are you doing this thing? or or I'm so like giving, or and I'm like, it's you're my friend. Like, I don't I have the ability to do this, I'm gonna do it because you're my friend. And they're like, Well, people just don't do that. I'm like, why not? If you're my friend, like I don't I don't have to hold on to anything that a resource or the opportunity or anything because I'm gonna always get what I need. Yeah, so why wouldn't I put that to you? So that's a really good attitude. Yeah, like why wouldn't I put that to you? So it's it's definitely oh god, it's it's I hate that because I'm like part of me feels I'm like, oh, I am a great friend, but then I also know I'm like, yeah, well, if I don't call you on your birthday, that's not the best feeling. Because I I just recently, my friend, I I always make a big deal about her birthday, but I was just so busy for her birthday this year. And then because I know that I miss her birthday, then I'm like seeing her post on stuff. I'm like, I can't like like things until I talk to her about it. And then I'm like, then it's been like two weeks, and I'm like, I didn't call her yet. And the longer and then I was like, you know what? I'm coming to LA tomorrow. I have to call her because I can't not see her when I'm in LA, but I can't. I was like, I call her and she goes, Yes. And I'm like, I know, I know, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And she's like, Yeah, I noticed. I'm like, I swear I love you. I know. I'm so I begging to, I'm like, I know. And I and I hate it because she she'll tell me, she's like, no, I I am a great friend. I'm one of her everything friends, and she can always come to me, but she's like, Yeah, girl, I don't know the communication thing. I'm like, I know.
SPEAKER_00It is that is hard, and and it is one of those things where then like the you kind of demonstrated that, like, then it's like, well, I can't do this unless I do this. And then, well, and I can't really do this until I talk to them about this. And I just need to like find time to call them or text them, and then it's like, oh, but it's been so long. And then, and we again we it's the overthinking, yes, is a big component of that. Um, and I also just kind of wanted to quickly touch on one other thing. It's really great that you you're like, you know, it's a good thing I have money, and that money for most people with ADHD is a struggle because of impulse shopping and out of sight, out of mind, meaning like you may want to be saving for a house, but in the moment, oh yeah, that's my thing. The emotional dysregulation.
SPEAKER_05My bills are paid right now. I don't even okay, who cares about later on? I'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, emotional dysregulation is a huge part of ADHD, which most people don't realize. And so, and that goes both ways, both you know, the not so great feelings and also the really great feelings, right? And so it'll be like, ah, drinks are on me, kind of a thing.
SPEAKER_05Oh, that's me on accident all the time. After, oh my god, that just had a memory. You wake up the next day and you're like, who did I think that I was? I mean, all these people drinks.
SPEAKER_03That was not me.
SPEAKER_00So I do encourage people who really struggle financially to like again get accountability with that one because the the statistics for women, a lot of women, especially if they were diagnosed late, they won't be able to retire. You know, they may never own a home. Yeah. Um, there's more instances of homelessness and things like that. So I I did want to mention that um because it is a it is a big component of it. But once you do start to better understand what your ADHD looks like, that's when it becomes easier to start putting structures in place that are going to that are gonna be have a better chance of sticking. Yeah. And but I can't stress enough, if it doesn't work, that doesn't mean you failed. It just simply means that it just wasn't the right choice for you.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, we gotta find it. And maybe just not the right choice for this season because it might it might be what you need in six months, but and our stuff changes literally season to season. Yeah. So yeah, no, I'm I'm really putting together like a list because I usually find that I go back to the same things. So I'm like, okay, let me have like a list. So once this thing gets boring, I can like pick from my list of what's my next thing. Because I want to learn certain skills. I always want to learn the same language, the same sport. Like, there's like, you know, my five or six things. I and I'm like, you know what? Let me stop thinking of it as I as I quit. I'm like, I'm just done for the season, you know? Yeah. And that little thing, it makes me not have the guilt of like, oh, I keep saying I'm gonna learn it. And I'm like, no, I don't, everything's not gonna be like some business that I'm starting, it's just a hobby or whatever, which that's a whole hobby. Oh my gosh. That's a whole another hobby graveyard, the the the planner graveyard. Oh, yeah, planner. I wanted to say too, just even with the the money thing, one thing that's really helped me with money thing is like having starting with very low amounts that automatically come out that have accounts that I don't ever see. I'm talking, I started with $20 and $30 things every week for just especially my daughters. Hers are great because with a trust and things, I can't even take hers out or touch it. So it's like that's good for her. But then things that I can touch, still making it making it an unnoticable amount where it doesn't feel like, oh, now I want to go to this account because it took so much out and I actually should use it for this. But once it's those small amounts, and you then you can start to see the momentum of it growing, then that gets exciting. Yeah, once you really get over that hum. But I think definitely just having the thing that I'm not gonna notice 20 bucks, I'm not gonna notice 30 bucks. That changed me so much being able to start to save. Because if I I'm not gonna remember to do it every week or month or whatever. No, but if I do a large amount, then I'm gonna be like, oh, I just put $2,000 into that. And now I'm like, oh, actually, I needed that because my brand is a little short because I didn't buy that dress that was yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00And especially too with the long-term planning stuff, because again, that out of sight, out of mind, right? And then now versus not now, that's way down in not now, land. Like if you want to retire. Oh yeah, like that's not even on people's radar a lot of the time, and you're like, no, you really need to pay attention to this. But that's why, again, that external accountability is such a vital part of learning to manage your ADHD because it it just it it's just an it's a tool, right? All of these things are tools, medication is a tool, it does not cure it, you know, which was very un I was not happy to hear that.
SPEAKER_04But what do you mean? That's what I'm supposed to do. Why does my mind still wander when I'm reading?
SPEAKER_00And but you know, they're all tools, and you know, you just need to figure out which tools work best for you. And again, like depending on where you are in your life, maybe some tools don't work now, but that doesn't mean you can't revisit them later on.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Um, because we evolve, our lives change and things, so then some tools that maybe didn't work before will be work really well in the future. So just don't look at it as because I I say this a lot because it is such a common thing I see with clients, which is I failed. And like, no, the system was not right for your brain at that point in time, and that is okay. Yeah, right. Just love who you are and just be curious about what works and what doesn't, and know that some things are gonna work and some things aren't, and you'll get through it.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I think one thing that's also really hard is when you are connecting with like other people, and again, when they start to be like, oh, everyone has ADHD, and you're like, no, I actually have it, and then when you're telling them it's it's not as an excuse, because like this is actually my ADHD, and they're just like, No, you can't say that. No, you can't say that. I've I've had to stop talking to people in this last year because I'm like, I promise you, I do not want to use this as an excuse. I promise you, I am doing the things, I'm working on it. I am, but there's sometimes like I'm just not gonna text you back because I know that you text me, and if I text you right now, I'm gonna not go back to doing this. And people will just like like it's just simple, just tell me that you're busy. I'm like, nope, because I'm gonna pick up my phone.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, if I pick up my phone, oh so many times I've gone to text somebody, and the next thing I know it's an hour and a half later, and I have somehow ended up I don't even know what I'm doing, but it was not what I and they'll be like, why did I even get on my phone? And I never ended up doing the thing I wanted to do.
SPEAKER_05And so yeah, I had someone that I was talking to, and and he was and he was like, No, like it's something I keep saying to you, and I'm like, Okay, I can fix a lot of things, but if you don't realize that this is gonna not change for me, I'm like, there's there's a couple things that I'm gonna accept aren't gonna change. And me not texting when I'm actually locked in is one of them because the fact that I even got locked in and I need an applause, like I got here, I'm not getting off for nobody. I yes so yeah, it's it sucks when people dismiss it. Yes, and you're online and everyone's like, oh, it's I don't have ADHD too, and it's like a joke, and it because it's like it's real, I get it's funny or whatever, but no, I actually it's it's it can really it can really be debilitating if you don't understand how it impacts you.
SPEAKER_00Some people are very good at creating really good coping strategies, however, as you pointed out, like then you have kids, right? Well, some of those coping strategies go out the window. Yeah, or you get married, or you know, you change jobs, and now it you know you have a different schedule. Like, there's so many things that can take those coping strategies and toss them out the window. And so again, not don't be don't judge yourself because that happens. It's it's just you know how it is, but it is but there for some people it is a very big struggle, and and some of them don't know that there is help for them.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And so that's what's really kind of heartbreaking is when I'm like, I know that I can help you, or that even if it's not even or or therapy or something, but you know, don't just try to white knuckle it the rest of your life because you're not doing yourself any good, you're not doing your family any good, and you deserve to have a life where you're happy, yes, and you feel like you are contributing to society and not feeling like you're messed up all the time, right? And and some people just write themselves off, and it just makes me really sad because and I was that person until you know my friend said that. I I was writing myself off.
SPEAKER_05What's your friend's name? Gigi. May everyone find a Gigi. Yes, seriously, yeah, because even now in someone that I'm dating, he's very like uh, I don't know, his executive function is functioning. Like it's he is, I've just never met someone that's like so on top of stuff. And also he's patient with me, but like just to see how someone else is and to know, like, kind of have a balance to me, I'm like, oh my god, thank you. I need to like, I I need to find friends that are kind of like the opposite of me. And in business now though, too. I'm like, okay, now I need to look for people that are in this kind of thing as an entrepreneur, like, okay, I know that this is in my skill set, but let me find those other people that do think like this. Because I think you do tend to, I mean, excuse me, I do tend to go to creatives and stuff. I'm like, oh, we're like alike, but then I'm like, oh my God, we are getting it done.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, so again, this kind of goes back to that fear of being called lazy. I for years kept trying to be better at the details. I'm not a detail-oriented person, I'm a big picture person, but I for years kept trying to be better at the details, and I would judge myself so harshly for this. And now I'm like, you know what? I'm a big picture person, I'm really good at the big picture, I'm really great at collaboration and putting together ideas and just brainstorming and whatever. And I also know that there was a certain point where it would be smarter for me to say, hey, somebody who likes the details here, do this. Yeah, you know, because there are people who they love the details and they hate the big picture thing. Yeah, right. We all have different callings and we can't do everything.
SPEAKER_05Yes. I think that's kind of just, I mean, the society that we're in is very individualistic too. So it's kind of like you're you can do everything. And I think just yeah, taking that load off of yourself is just such a way that you didn't really know a lot of times. I did want to do like one thing before we like kind of get out of here. If you're talking to someone that just got diagnosed, what would you tell them to do for like their first steps and the processing journey as far as a thing to try or just a mindset to switch, or what what would be your first message to that person?
SPEAKER_00My first thing I would say is if it is feasibly, if it's feasible for you, get a therapist that understands ADHD in women if you're a woman who was just diagnosed. Um, because there's a lot to work through. And you have spent your life judging yourself, hating yourself, um, not understanding yourself, and there is a whole lot to work through. And so you want somebody who understands what that looks like in women, which sometimes you gotta look around for that. Um and then, uh said before, just be curious about your ADHD. Don't judge, just start to notice where you're seeing it show up. And the and this, I'm this is a big ask. Don't start looking for every solution under the sun on the internet, which you will do. I did it too. I know you have done it. It because you will get really overwhelmed. And again, it just sort of adds that feeling of I'm not enough, I'm messed up, whatever. You are amazing as you are. You just need to figure out how your brain works so that you can, so that you know that you're amazing. Like I know you're amazing, but you have to know that. But therapy, and not everybody loves talk therapy, although we do tend to be verbal processors, which is why we tend to talk a lot. Um, it's also where our hyperactivity shows up. Um but there's all kinds of therapy out there now. So if talk therapy is not for you, art therapy, music therapy, equine therapy, there's like so many different things. But finding somebody who understands ADHD is it's a really good first step. Yeah, because there is a lot to work through. And they can also start, they can help you start on the process of uh understanding a little bit of the executive functioning. But what I have found is that therapists really like to work with the emotional aspects of things. And I have collaborated with with um therapists where then I help them with the executive functioning and helping them create systems, but the big part is the self-awareness. Yeah. And so whether you're working with a coach, working with a therapist, just starting to get to know yourself and understanding that you have AHD, and it really is a great thing, even if it doesn't feel like it now. It doesn't always feel like it for me either. There are days where I'm like, could I literally have any other brain but mine? But I wouldn't have a lot of things I have in my life if I had a different brain. So, but it takes time and allow yourself that time.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, and it keeps happy, like it's such a process of you just I when we were talking before you said that you're like, I still have things that come up now, and I've been diagnosed for it. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I realized this year or like the end of last year that I really need transition time between different types of tasks. I, you know, I I liken it to like needing to have a thing of ginger between entrees. Like, I just need a little, even sometimes just five minutes. I'll come home and my kids will be like, hey mom, I'm like, what I need five minutes, right? And whatever. And not everybody needs that, but that was something for me, and I just discovered that last year.
SPEAKER_05So yeah, it's good. Tons of things to keep finding out. Because you're masking all the time. So it's like, is this me or is this the ADHD? Uh yes, masking. Well, I want to thank you so much for coming on today. Can you tell us all the things and ways that we can get in touch with you and find you online?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, thank you very much for having me. This is a lot of fun, and they're probably like, oh my gosh, so much information. Um happy.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_00Um, so uh my website is joryhoolahan.com. Um, I'm also on um Jory Hoolihan on most of like socials, so Instagram, um, TikTok, all that. Uh, and uh my podcast is called ADHD and dot dot dot with Jory Hoolihan. Look it up by Jory Hoolihan. If you put in ADHD, like I did it a couple days ago. Yeah. Put my name in. Um, yeah, so those are the main ways that people can find me.
SPEAKER_05And that is a wrap on today's episode. Jory, thank you so much for being here and for going so deep with me on this. If anything we talked about today resonated with you, I really encourage you to go to listen to Joey's podcast. It is called ADHD and dot dot dot, and it's completely focused on ADHD. So if you're looking for more of this, it is just such a great resource. You can find it in the show notes or in the link in my bio on all my socials. And if you are not already part of the occasionally perfect circle community, I would love for you to join us over there. It's free. We do episode discussions, and it's just a really great place to connect. If you have a story or resource you want to share, that's the place to do it. The link is in my bio on all my socials, or you can find it down in the show notes. Thank you so much for listening and for being on this journey with me, and I'll see you next time.