Solving Cold Cases with DNA: Inside Forensic Genetic Genealogy with Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick

On this episode of True Crime with the Sarge, host Joseph Giacalone sits down with Colleen Fitzpatrick, one of the pioneers of Forensic Genetic Genealogy. Learn how forensic genetic genealogy is helping solve cold cases using DNA and family tree analysis

This powerful investigative technique has helped law enforcement identify unknown suspects and victims in decades-old cold cases by combining DNA analysis with traditional genealogical research.

Dr. Fitzpatrick explains:

• What a forensic genetic genealogist actually does

• How investigators build family trees from DNA matches

• How the technique helps solve cold cases

• What it costs for law enforcement agencies to use

• How someone can enter the field of forensic genetic genealogy

If you’re interested in DNA investigations, cold case breakthroughs, forensic science, and modern investigative techniques, this episode provides a clear look at one of the most important tools now transforming criminal investigations.

Learn more about Indentifinders International 

If you enjoyed this episode on how DNA is helping solve cold cases, please follow the show and leave a review on Apple Podcasts. It helps more people interested in true crime investigations find the show.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This podcast contains subject matter which might not be suitable for all audiences. It contains adult topics and language. Listener discretion is advised. True Crime with the Sarge is a Sarge Media LLC production. Hello, everybody, and welcome to a new episode of True Crime with the Sarge The Audio Files. My name is Joseph Jacqualon, and with us today is Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick. She is an internationally recognized forensic scientist and pioneer, a pioneer in the development of forensic genetic genealogy. She is also the founder of Identifinders International. Welcome back to the show, Dr. Fitz. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Hi, doing good. Doing good. How are you doing? Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_01 0:41

Oh, anytime. Yeah, I'm doing well. So this is a new thing that we've doing. We're doing the audio podcast version of this, uh a little bit different than what we do with the live shows. So uh I got some questions for you that some of our students have requested that if you can answer for them. We're going to start off with something really basic. What is a forensic genetic genealogist? What do they do?

SPEAKER_00 1:01

Well, what we do is we apply genealogy to forensics. In other words, we if you have a forensic case, an unidentified human remains case, or a violent offender case, we have ways of applying genealogy to the specifics of that case, you know, usually through DNA, that helps us figure out, identify either the human remains or the violent offender.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Now, is there a specific process that how this all starts? Is there something that you need to in order to get this process on the on the track of identifying somebody?

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Yeah, we do. Normally, what happens is normally quite often, it's a case that has already been run through CODIS and they've done all the official conventional stuff that people have been doing for 30 years, and it hasn't worked. So what we normally do is an agency will contact us, say, and say, gee, you know, we've done everything. We just can't solve this case. So what we do, what I normally do is I sit down with them and I say, okay, tell me a few things. How much DNA do you have? Um, how degraded it is, and uh, is it a mixture? You know, and I I and each one of those questions carries some weight with it. We we have found that degradation doesn't really matter that much for us. But uh, how much DNA is a good question, and also is it a mixture is a really important question. And after we do that, then we uh you know what I will say this. Conventionally speaking, the way that it this has been done for years is you figure out what DNA you have, what evidence you have, you send the DNA, or that you send the evidence to the lab, the lab gets the extracts the DNA somehow from that, it creates a profile, that profile is uploaded to some database, and then you look for a hit. And believe it or not, we do the same thing with genealogy. We have the evidence sent to the lab. The lab does a profile, different profile, but they do a profile, they upload it to a database, they look for hits. It's just a different lab, a different profile, a different kind of hit, but generically it's identical to what people have been doing for years. We use different markers, we use a different lab, but it's really the same process.

SPEAKER_01 3:25

Now, some of these uh I don't know how you refer to them, I guess, these open source DNA companies. Is that is that what you you use to help try to build these trees out? Because there's only a few that allow this, right? That are kind of like law enforcement friendly, because they've kind of clamped down on this. Could you explain that process too?

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Well, there's two uh two parts to your question, really. First of all, you have to get the DNA and make data out of it. We use different kinds of data, different kinds of markers. That's the first thing. Now, until probably recently, the crime la crime labs really don't, as a rule, make this kind of data. So normally it's sent to a private lab. It's called SNP data, and it's different. So uh normally the agency would send it to a lab that we suggest. You know, we we work with all the labs. Every case has its own personality, it's only DNA samples. So we generally pick the lab we think is probably suitable, most suitable for the case. Now that's one thing. Now, after you get the data, whatever that is, we have to upload it to a database, and and we have to look at what that data looks like in context of the database. So, okay, that's like the first step, you know, get the profile uploaded. Now, once we have it, that's when the genealogy starts. That's a whole nother process. And that's different companies offer those platforms for building the genealogy. Now, Ancestry recently has come down and said, please don't use our stuff, more like the terms of service change. You can't use our stuff. You can't use our platform for building trees, you can't even look at our census records, you can't look at our databases, you know, stay away. And, you know, there's many uh answers I've heard about why that they decided to do that. So uh, you know, barring that, there are other uh alternatives that are not as good, but there are also a couple of um organizations developing new Ancestry-esque type tools that are becoming more popular. So over time, I really think that um Ancestry, I understand probably why they made that decision, but on the other hand, you know, they I think they should be more open. I will say this, that today, okay, uh let me let me explain it. Uh in the days when the browsers, the the the computer browsers were being developed, you had Netscape, you had Microsoft Explorer, you had Google, Google came later, but you had you know Yahoo, all those. Uh my understanding is the people developing that finally sat down and said, listen, we need to have some kind of common language here, because if somebody wants to send an email from me to you, it can't go through five different systems and finally not get there. We all have to decide on the HTTP protocol, the URLs, how the switching works, where it goes. And they all did that. And it turned out Microsoft Explorer went down because Microsoft would was holding on to their technology, proprietary technology, and they did not want to go there. They wanted to do it. So I think that what's going to happen is that there's a new way called distributed genealogy, which is the same thing, where the genealogy is kind of like, you know, like I if I do a Google alert and I want to find, you know, true crime with the Sarge, every time it pops up, it'll come into my mailbox and I'll see that happen. There's going to be a genealogy day time when you could build a tree on a platform. And if I if say your name comes up in my tree, a little hint's going to come in from outer space, anywhere on the internet, and tell me that I can look there for that information. Ancestry does that right now within their uh structure. You know, if you have a tree and you're building a little leaf, it says I like Colleen Fitzpatrick on my tree. And if internal to Ancestry, somebody posts something where there's a census record, a little leaf would pop up and you click and you look at it. I think one day that's going to be universal, not just inside Ancestry. Just like all those browsers decided to shake hands with each other so I can send an email from me to you and not worry about jumping fences. I think that's what's going to be genealogy. I know companies working on that. So that, you know, yes, Ancestry is limited, but I think they're limiting in it's not far-sighted enough because it's going to be distributed. You know, the inbound information is going to be tremendous from everywhere, but Ancestry may not want to be part of that.

SPEAKER_01 8:11

Yeah, no, it's actually very exciting. I mean, I wish back when I was doing cold cases in New York City that this even existed back then. I mean, we're talking, you know, early 2000s. It was in the infancy stage or thought stage, right? But to use it as cases, we're going to get into some of your techniques about, you know, how you were the first ones to bring these kind of cases into the forefront. But it it to me is very exciting. I mean, are you still excited about the future of the forensic genealogy?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Oh, of course I am, because it's so it's taking off, which means everybody's creating new tools. Like I said, the distributed genealogy is coming into focus, you know, universal access to information, so to speak, like Google. Um, you know, that's that's it's exciting and um exciting also it's spreading to other countries. There's other cases that you know are being addressed and policy procedure being developed in other uh areas of the world, which is good. I've done work for several countries.

SPEAKER_01 9:09

Now, and I'm assuming just like a lot of the new technology, as these things go further out, it'll be it'll become cheaper and cheaper too. I mean, and that will be a really big propel for for getting these cases solved.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

Yes, yeah, and of course, you know, the market drives that, the more, you know, demand, you know, people we're gonna have to supply that demand, you know, we're gonna have to, and of course, you know, the Department of Justice, all that area, you know, you don't have unlimited funds. So, you know, you have to kind of come to an equilibrium on how much it costs and how much people can afford. And um, I see the price, you know, getting more and more reasonable.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Is there a general price right now in 2026 about how much something like this would cost compared to like say when it first started 10 years ago?

SPEAKER_00 9:58

Um, yeah, well, um, you know, 10 years ago it wasn't people didn't, we didn't know what we were doing. 10 years ago, it's more like 2017, which is not quite 10. Um, you know, we were basically, you know, begging and help, getting help. We're trying to do this. Now it's formalized. So you do have price lists. And I think the price of a you know, whole genome sequencing, there's several ways you can do this, but say 8 to 10k for uh for an accredited lab to work on something. And whereas uh I know an unc a lab that's extremely good but doesn't have that accreditation, and uh that would lower that price more to something like um, let's see, 6K maybe depending.

SPEAKER_01 10:48

A lab that's not accredited, you think there would be a good source though for let's say unidentified human remains where you don't have to worry, right?

SPEAKER_00 10:57

You don't have to worry about going to court, is the thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:01

Right. So that's still that's another option for for law enforcement agencies, too, right? You say, okay, it's not accredited, but we're not gonna go to court. We just want to find out who this person was, give them back their name, right?

SPEAKER_00 11:10

Right, that's very popular. Yes, we work on a lot of cases like that.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

And and it and I think that's uh the the right thing to do, too, from law enforcement perspective, right? To put IDs back to this. I mean, you look at a place like New York City, who has uh you know thousands of people buried in unmarked graves, and and you know, you don't know who they are, and it's it's just a shame that they'll they're gonna end up doing that. But um, like I said, money becomes an issue with a lot of things, but hopefully as this technology improves, yeah it's it it should be exciting. If I wanted if Joe wanted to be a forensic genetic genealogist, what path would you suggest that I take, right? Because we have a lot of people that want to do this now because it's becoming popular. What what's the the let's talk about what's what the path is, maybe some education background that they would need, and then we can discuss possible job markets in that respect.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah. Well, um there I get that question a lot because uh you know, true crime and genealogy are both very big hobbies in this world we live in. And you have genealogists that type with one finger, you know, and you have people that watch true crime all the time. So let me say that this is a lot harder than it seems. So if you want to jump in, you you have a road ahead of you. It's not a question of we occasionally get a um an email saying uh something like, hey, I was working on my husband's genealogy last night and I was listening to forensic files in the background, and I suddenly realized, gosh, I could get a job getting paid to do this. Uh no, no, that's not the approach. Because the job market is extremely tight. There's only about two dozen paid jobs in this space that are not, I'd say, not law and part of already part of law enforcement or a cold case unit. So if you want to just get up to speed, there are some steps you have to take, but you know, you have to work hard on it. The first is to um you can um do just a lot of adoption searches, you know that that's a very popular hobby. Um, you know, just friends adopted, have them take a DNA test, you know, learn how to do that, how basically how to do that. But what you really need to do uh at some point is get notch it up and get it into forensics. Because forensics, you know, has a lot of confidentiality. You can't do a lot of things that you could do ordinarily out in public. So if you were doing an adoption search, you could do um, you know, you can use Ancestry. They have what 30 million people in their database. 23andMe has about 20, maybe 15, my heritage. So you have about 50 million people that have taken a DNA test that you can try and match with. Um, but when you do forensics, we only have family tree DNA database with 2 million people, and JedMatch, which has 2 million for an unidentified human remains case for a total of 4 million, and if it's a violent offender, we only have half a million. You have to kind of limit, you know, you have to opt in and agree to that. So you are very restricted when you do forensics, you're operating undercover, so to speak. You you're going ahead and doing all this work, but you can't contact anybody. You can't say, Oh, the guy came up with a first cousin, I'm just gonna call them to see if their aunt had a baby that was adopted. You can't do that. You can't you have limited data, much more limited data, and you can't reach out. You know, it's not as easy. So when you go from an adoption search, a search angel, you do well with that, and you go into forensics, you're gonna have still have a tough time. But if you want to do it, so you could get into you could go to Ramapo College, they have a certificate program, that's pretty good. And then you could go to University of New Haven. Those are the two big organizations that offer a training program. Uh, New Haven, it's part of their master's program. You don't have to do the whole master's program, but it is accredited as a master's program by the state. Um, and you could do that. That's a little pricey, but you know, if you want to go that route, fine, it's a really good program. And even after you get out of that, you're competing for jobs against people that have already been through those programs. Some of them are law enforcement officers retired, some are forensic biologists, some have been in the labs, some are attorneys, some are DNA analysts. So you, if you have an extra something like that, it helps. You still you're at the next level of competing. Now, the other thing I tell when people I talk about, you know, get some training, go to one of these programs, but the thing that you really need to do is go to forensic conferences, meet all the stakeholders, meet the the uh, you know, people that are giving those talks, learn everything you can about forensics, not just about genealogy and about uh DNA, but learn, you know, about forensic anthropology. You're gonna work with those people. You know, forensic toxicology, that may come up, forensic on dontology. Learn everything you can and be a presence in the forensic community. Go on LinkedIn, comment, you know, go to when I was talking to uh a gal recently, maybe a year ago, same question. I she was an attorney, had worked for a cold case unit. I won't mention her name, you may know her. And she had gotten out of that, she wanted to go into genealogy, she was in the state of New York, and I told her, make sure you go to a forensic conference. And she was on while I was talking to her, she was online looking up at American Academy of Forensic Science when it would be and if she could get off work to go. And she sat next to me in one of those meetings. She was on fire, and she ever she met people she didn't already know. Some people already knew her, and she's the kind of person I would I would really consider hiring because she's on fire. She came, she took time off work, she spent the money, she went to that conference, she met everybody, she sat in the front row, she asked questions, and she's also, you know, already, she's already had the experience of working for law enforcement. So if you're just at night looking at TV, forensic file, that's not enough. You really have to put the pedal to the metal and compete. We hope to open the door to more job opportunities in the future. It's coming, but you're still going to have to compete. There's just tons of people that want to do this, it's very popular.

SPEAKER_01 17:59

Yeah, no, I mean, and I'm I'm thinking about eventually down the road, police departments even hiring from within, right, to do this for themselves. Having, you know, hiring. There already are.

SPEAKER_00 18:09

There are any many units, have their own in-house uh genealogy units now. They do.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Right, because the FBI we know does it, right? They've been doing this for a for a for a bit. I mean, I believe they did the Coberger case, correct? Do you know that?

SPEAKER_00 18:25

Uh yeah, they worked on that. Yes. I'm aware they worked on that.

SPEAKER_01 18:29

Yeah, so I mean it's it isn't it it's an exciting field for sure. I mean, it's new, sort of. You know, when you think about some of the other kinds of jobs in policing or in law enforcement, it it's brand new. And it is kind of uh exciting because they're they're putting names to people who who haven't been named for decades, and it's uh it's it's a good thing. Is there is there a difference? I I hear these terms used a lot. They say I hear genetic genealogy, I hear forensic genetic genealogy, and I hear forensic investigative genetic genealogy. Does they do they all mean the same thing, or is it something different? Why why do we have that kind of I hope I get this right?

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Genetic genealogy is just plain doing an adoption search. You're adopted, go take an ancestry test and find out who your parents are. Okay, uh forensic, uh, let's see how to say genetic, let's see, there's forensic genetic genealogy, investigative genetic. And there's forensic investigative genetic genealogy, fig. Forensic uh genetic genealogy, I think, is the part up front where you're going to make the SNP profiles and you uh try and get the matches and you see how close the relatives are. The investigative part is when you start building the trees. And I mentioned that earlier, there's up to a lab, and then you start uploading, you know, and then you start doing the ballet dance with the genealogy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:53

So so there is a difference between all these terms because you kind of hear them and you almost think that they're, you know, they kind of it interchange, that they actually mean the same thing, but they don't.

SPEAKER_00 20:00

Well, they don't, but everybody interchanges them mistakenly. So if you're confused, so am I.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Right. Well, well now we have a little bit of uh insight on exactly what they are, so we can kind of do this. Now, you have a unique place in history in all this, being the pioneer of investigative genetic genealogy. You brought the first cases ever before way before the Golden State killer. We have two cases. We have the Sarah Yarborough case and we have the Phoenix Canal murders uh by was it Brian Patrick Miller?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, so it it's very rare do we any of us have the opportunity to speak with the actual individual that started all this. So it's kind of exciting for our listeners to to really tune into somebody who was there from the actual beginning. And we're not talking about ancient history either. We're talking about within, like you said, two, you know, it's what 2017, 2016, around that time frame. So let's walk us through, let's let's let's talk about the Phoenix canal murders, right? Let's let's discuss that case because it's it's it's interesting on so many different levels. You had two victims uh that were on the trail in Arizona, right? They're found within a few days apart. Tell us the story about how you got involved in that.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

Um, well, first of all, people ask me, how did I get involved with forensic genealog genetic genealogy? We call it fig sometimes, and I say, I didn't, I invented it, right? So this is uh was a turning point, this case where um it became real in a way, in in a sort of way, um, because I had been uh one day, one night in 2010 ish, I was falling asleep and I said, Do you know the why markers that the genetic genealogy people use for predicting the last name for doing their Last name. I had my brother tested for Fitzpatrick to see if I could match other Fitzpatricks. I said, those markers are the same as the markers they use for uh cold cases. For they use them for the Y filer and PowerPlex amplification kits for the Y profiles that the forensics use. And I said, I wonder, you know, when you do an adoption search, you have a guy who comes and he doesn't know who he is. He gives his DNA and you try and match against a name to find out his birth father's name. I said, you could do that with a cold case or unidentified remains. You could get a Y profile from somewhere, throw it into the databases, and if you got a match to a name, that would tell you the probable name of the of the person that donated that profile. So that was like falling asleep one night, believe it or not. Okay, that's really interesting. So uh that started. Uh, you know, you mentioned Sarah Yarborough. That that prompted me. I was actually going to Seattle, and I went a day early to talk to the Seattle police about my idea. Now that I can't say that went over real well, you know. Uh a little old lady coming in and saying, Hey, I got a new idea. No, no. Uh, but there was a um DNA analyst in the room, uh, Jody Sass, who I knew kind of understood what the conversation was a little bit better than I did. And she promised to send me a case, you know, and so hey, there's a case that keeps coming up. And she wound up uh directing me to the uh directing the King County Sheriff's Office to me about Sarah Yarborough. So um so anyway, I you know took that and I worked that, and off and on, I wasn't really interested in developing a business or you know, I just wanted to see if it worked. So then uh in 2014, late 14, I was going to Phoenix to the ISHI Conference, International Symposium on Human Identification. It's every year. And I went, uh really enjoyed it. And so beforehand, I called the Phoenix Police Department, same hat trick. Hey, I'm gonna be in the town, I have an idea of cold casework using genealogy and why the YSTRs. And they said, Okay, uh, the woman who answered, I forget who it was, uh, she said, Okay, I can I get back to you. I have to ask my supervisor or whatever. I said, Okay, whatever. And I didn't know until very recently that they couldn't know what to do with that call. You know, they they didn't know if I was a crackpot or not, and they debated it because they looked me up and they figured out they saw I have a big fancy degree on the wall, and they said, you know, Titanic baby and all the other stuff I'd done. And they said, you know, we really don't know what to do. Well, we might as well talk to her, whatever. And um, so I went. So somebody from the um the department was at the conference, a couple of guys there, and they brought me over to the police department, and I gave my talk on the, you know, I didn't just sit down, I had some slides, and I was um, and you know, they actually listened and they were very thoughtful. You know, and on the way out, they said, Well, we do have a case we'd like to give you. And I said, Okay, you know, you say, Okay, I'll be glad to. You have no control, you know, whatever. And then they wound up sending me the Y profile from a case. Now I didn't know it was the Phoenix Canal murders till much, much later, because up to that point, genealogists going to police departments were nuisances, you know, were annoying. You know, it was more like uh I haven't, hey, you know, can I help you with your coal cases? And the police department said, Yeah, what can you think? What do you think you can do to help us? Well, I don't know, what do you think I can help you with? Well, what can you know, and then click, you know. So I I think I was the first person to really walk in with an idea that might help. And I wouldn't say I got a, you know, I I did make other calls, I can't remember. I tried to get to other departments, and I may have talked to one or two. Um, and but the Phoenix people really took me seriously, in spite of, you know, they thought I was a weirdo. They did take me seriously. And, you know, because I think because I had something to offer, I had a technical background, you know, real solid hard science background. So they couldn't, they really couldn't dismiss what I was saying. They couldn't, and they were really dedicated to um, you know, the cake trying anything on the case. That's that that was a very big factor in Sarah Yarborough and Phoenix because they would try anything to solve this case. And somebody came up with a new idea and they would try anything, and it worked. So um both both worked in their own way. Um so um it was there were so many interesting um aspects to that. And personally, one thing I haven't said much about was when they gave the so I let me say I didn't know it was Sarah Yarbrough, I didn't know it was Phoenix too much later because I didn't want to ask. I didn't want to be that annoying person that, oh, can you give me the case file? I'd be no no no. Let's keep the the fence there. You give me what, I'll give you back. You can tell me later. Well, when they sent me the sheet with the Y profile, it's a string of numbers basically. It was a table and it had more than one. And accidentally I misunderstood and I compared the other Y profile in another column to the genetic genealogy databases, and I got a last name. I sent it in, and the detective said, no, that's not the right column. That DNA is from a piece of chewing gum we found in the area of the first crime scene. And it occurred to me at that moment, this was 2015, and the murder probably was in '92 or '93, that based on what I had in front of me, I could tell you who was chewing a piece of chewing gum at that location back 20-something years before. And that kind of struck me as being a really interesting thing. And then, of course, I corrected that, and then they um it worked. The magic worked. Within they had 2,000 people in that um case file within 20 minutes of getting the name Miller. That detective had a person of interest after 20-something years. And they told me later that one detective was going taking all those 2,000 people, and one detective was going from A to M, triaging the suspects, and another detective was going from Z to N, triaging the suspects, and they planned to meet in the middle and discuss what they had found. And the guy's name began with an M. Oh my god, can you be so lucky?

SPEAKER_01 29:13

Yeah, no. Let me let me ask you, what did it what did it feel like when they finally told you, yeah, we got you know, when you when you got this profile and they match it up with a name, what was that feeling like? Because this is this was brand new.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Well, that's right. You gotta remember this is brand new. You gotta remember we don't live in that world anymore. Well, the famous story I tell was I was actually minding my own business. I was having dinner with a gal, a friend of mine across the street here, and phone rang at eight, and I saw the detective's name come up. And I said, Um, gotta take this. Hang on, because it's so weird. You remember that we're going back. Detectives didn't call me at eight o'clock at night. You know, nobody got these calls. And he said, Um, you know, you you were right, it was Miller. We got him. We're on the way to arrest him, or we just arrested him. And I was like in shock. I screamed out, oh my god, they got him. And the whole restaurant, you know, was like, what? What's going on? Oh, no, sorry, wrong number, you know, went back. And so I got home. Of course, I rushed home, you know, there was news somewhere about it. And I found out later it was a VDOC case, VDOC Society case, if you know them. That's the organization, Philadelphia. And um, I met, I met up lady with some of those, and one of them said that that was a VDOC case. I didn't know that. And he had been told first that unless something else comes up, it's never going to be solved. And then that's in whenever they presented it. And then I met him probably 2017-18, and I he was the it was Ed Gogan. He was giving the intro talk at a cold case thing I was at. And he's introducing, welcoming everybody, and he says, the magic words, the Phoenix Canal murders. And I sat up and then I started listening. And I chased him down. I said, We have never met, but I'm the lady that helped solve that. And he said, they said that if nothing else, you know, not unless something came up, it never was going to be solved. And then the next call I got was turn on your TV, you know, see what's going on. I said, We have never met, you know, and that and the uh the I will say that when they told me that, you know, when the detective Troy Hillman called me, he said, Don't don't talk to the media because we don't know what this means. And I didn't because, you know, legally speaking, what would how would that affect this going through the court and the arrest? And that was all brand new to me. I didn't want to interrupt anything. I was scared to death. And also I had been bashed very severely by the genetic genealogy community for using public data to help the police, and I couldn't deal with that bashing again, and I didn't want to upset the legal system. So I was under the radar, and I just kept getting they found out who I was. So the Phoenix papers used to call me pretty regularly, and I I finally I was so nervous I wouldn't answer anymore. You know, I just I didn't want to go there because I didn't nobody knew what this meant, you know. I was scared to death.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

Right, and look at what has opened up. I mean, just from the cases that you worked on alone, it's like almost like a who's who. So we had the Brian Miller case, the canal murders. We had the golden, the you had the bear, um, excuse me, the boy in the box.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_01 32:46

Uh and I mean in a handful of other cases and identifications, I mean, it becomes it's it's actually kind of impressive about how far this has come.

SPEAKER_00 32:57

Yeah. Well, it has, and everybody now is not everybody, but it's quite popular. You read that every day, and there's cases solved. Um, I'm a bit part of the extended family on some of them, like Golden State, you know, that's Barbara's case, but I was part of the gold the extended family doing the why on that. Um, you know, the uh yoga shop murders recently, I was part of the extended family on that. So I don't always, you know, I'm not always that person that gives the aha moment, but I'm always there to help, you know, in another background. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:32

The boy in the box case that we know Joseph Augustus Zarelli, right?

SPEAKER_00 33:36

I mean that was a big one.

SPEAKER_01 33:38

Yeah, a huge one to give him his name back. I I just hope one day that they can actually make an announcement of who was responsible for that.

SPEAKER_00 33:45

But yeah, I don't I don't think that will ever we you know you always think you know, right? There's persons of interest, but that was so long ago, they're all gone. You know, they're it would it would really take a more than a miracle for somebody to come forward and say, I have evidence because I saw I was there, because that's already 1957.

SPEAKER_01 34:06

Right. Yeah, it's it's beyond the life expectancy of many a potential witness there for sure. Doc, is there anything that uh you think that I didn't ask you that the that the audience would be interested in in knowing about forensic investigative genetic genealogy?

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Well, I guess what I want to do is a couple of things. I well, uh it's it's a really great game changer. Um, if you want to get in, you really have to put the pedal to the metal. You know, you have to be up there, you gotta be real sharp, you gotta be competitive, you gotta really want to do it. Because I want to emphasize it's hard work. It's not just building a tree and having that aha moment. It's very hard work. And you're not gonna be sitting, you know, just casually doing genealogy watching forensic files. It's hard work. It's it's really and uh just the community, too. Uh you know, being part of the genealogy community is one way, you know, is a is a way of life, or what people do that. When you're part of the forensic community, you're up to ante. You have more professional standards, you have policies, you have procedures, we're going to we're creating accreditation processes. So you just can't be freelance. And you can't, you can't really. One of the uh big deals we're dealing with, we have deal with, we are dealing with is the use of social media by the genealogy community. You got to cut back on that. You can't go online and saying there was one website that said, please don't post any uh negative comments about the police on this, police agencies about this. It seems pretty innocent, doesn't it? But suppose that person's called as an expert witness, that they could challenge the witness by saying, Hey, are you pro-law enforcement? I saw you put that on your, you know, or 10 years ago you were talking about a case and you criticized the police for not doing this, that, and the other thing. Are you anti? You know, it's it's hard. You it's it's there's a lot more to it.

SPEAKER_01 36:11

And that's great advice. And it's advice I often give my students too. Just be careful what you post because it could be it could come back and haunt you. Dr. Colleen Fitzpatrick, the pioneer of forensic genetic genealogy. It's been a pleasure again to speak with you and thank you for spending your time with us.

SPEAKER_00 36:27

Yeah, and listen, everybody stay stay in our even if you don't uh get a job, be part of the cheerleading squad. We need that. We need cheerleaders. We're recruiting cheerleaders. Even if you can't be a fig person, a figster, I call them. Hey, we need cheerleaders. Be out there, bark about us, say what a good job we're doing.

SPEAKER_01 36:46

Well, there you have it, folks. You've been that is your call to action. Doctor, thank you very much. And we're gonna say goodbye to everybody. Thank you again. For more shows like this, check out True Crime with the Sarge on YouTube or on my official website, josephjackalone.com. This podcast is owned and operated by Sarge Media LLC. All rights reserved. Thank you for listening.