Gilgo Beach Murders Solved: Former SCPD Commissioner Rodney Harrison on LISK Rex Heuermann Case

How did law enforcement finally solve the Gilgo Beach murders after more than a decade? In this gripping episode of True Crime with the Sarge, former Suffolk County Police Commissioner Rodney Harrison joins us to reveal how the Gilgo Beach Task Force, formed with DA Ray Tierney, helped identify and arrest Long Island Serial Killer Rex Heuermann.

We go inside the investigation that changed everything—breaking down the strategy, leadership, and forensic advancements that led to Heuermann pleading guilty to the murders of eight women: Megan Waterman, Melissa Barthelemy, Maureen Brainard-Barnes, Amber Lynn Costello, Sandra Costilla, Valerie Mack, Jessica Taylor, and Karen Vergata.

Commissioner Harrison shares never-before-heard insights into reopening cold cases, the role of digital evidence, and the importance of collaboration across agencies. This episode also highlights the victims, the pursuit of justice, and what this case means for the future of true crime investigations.

🎙️ In This Episode:

• The formation of the Gilgo Beach Task Force

• How Rex Heuermann was identified

• Key investigative breakthroughs

• Leadership under pressure in a high-profile case

• Lessons for solving cold cases nationwide

If you’re interested in true crime, cold cases, and the evolution of modern policing, this is an episode you don’t want to miss.

👉 Follow True Crime with the Sarge for more expert interviews and in-depth analysis of the biggest cases in the headlines.

#TrueCrime #GilgoBeach #LISK #RexHeuermann #ColdCase #Podcast #RodneyHarrison #RayTierney

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This podcast contains adult language, adult topics. Listener discretion is advised. TrueCrime with Asarge The Audio Files is owned and operated by Sarge Media LLC. Please consider liking and subscribing to the channel. Eight women, thirteen years, and a case that many believed would never be solved. Today I'm sitting down with my partner Josh Zeman from Sinister and former Suffolk County Police Commissioner Rodney Harrison. Rodney Harrison, along with Ray Tierney, created the Cole Case Task Force, rebuilt this case from the bottom up, which ultimately led to the arrest of Rex Herman. So what was actually missing in the case before Commissioner Harrison took over? This is the inside story of how America's most chilling serial killer case to date was finally cracked. Commissioner Harrison, first I want to say congratulations, excellent job, and welcome back to the show.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Gentlemen, thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_01 1:01

Yes, well, it's it's actually our pleasure. So we just wanted to make sure that uh everybody in the chat saying congratulations too. They want to make sure that uh you get your kudos, so to speak. So, Rodney, I'm gonna start off quickly. When you first stepped in your role as a commissioner, when you started looking at the case, I know you had made some public comments back there, but what led you ultimately to say, you know what, we need a task force to get this thing off the ground?

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yeah, so there's a lot of different uh uh layers to that response. So I'll just kind of walk everybody through what I saw in the initial phases and uh what I was looking to do uh coming out the gate. So uh when I first got the position of police commissioner, uh Steve Alone, the county executive, he's very passionate about you know rejuvenating this investigation and taking a closer look at it. I actually think that one of the reasons why he nominated me was due to the fact of my uh NYPD, NYPD career and conducting an investigation. So I think that was kind of like the the tilting point of him saying, hey, this may be the right person that can help this investigation. Uh so when I sat down with a couple people over there in Suffolk County and wanted to get kind of like an update regarding the investigation, where things stand, uh, I got a lot of deflection. And uh it showed that this case was not a priority. Like if it was a priority, everybody would know what thing, what's going on with the investigation, what steps are are occurring. And it was a lot of uh, well, I'm not sure, uh, you know, I'll I'll have you speak to this person, I'll have you speak to that person. And that that was deflating to show that uh uh this case wasn't being prioritized. And coming from the NYPD, Joe, you could appreciate this. Uh we eat our own. You know, like you know, if you don't have uh the answers for something, uh we'll find somebody else to to uh do uh do the job for you. So uh eventually I got uh in connection with Kevin Bayer. Kevin Byron is the detective lieutenant for the Suffolk County Homicide Uh Homicide Squad. And I'm gonna be very honest with you, like I didn't know exactly what I was getting myself into, who can I trust? Uh listen, uh people would come in my office and and speak uh highly of Jimmy Burke, which I thought was bizarre, and uh, you know, who was connected with who. You know, you heard certain things about Jimmy Burke and you know how he kicked the FBI off the task force and how he might have been involved with the disappearance of Shannon Gilbert and a host of other things. So I I had some concerns like regarding who I can I trust and how do I uh get this investigation back in the right direction. So I uh I sat down with Kevin Beyer, and I'm gonna be very honest with everybody here on the on that's that's listening. Uh I was looking to get rid of him. Uh I was like, yeah, this guy hasn't doesn't know what he's doing, he's not the right person. I gotta find a way to kind of grill him, let him show me that he is not invested, and that would give me enough reason for me to move on and bring somebody else to oversee it. And one of the things I was gonna do, Joe, is I was going to look to bring in people from the NYPD and I was I was gonna reach out to Joe Resnick, I was reaching out to uh a bunch of uh Phil Pulaski, uh I didn't reach out to Bobby Boyce, but he was on the uh potential request list and and a host of other uh Richard Rudolph uh from Queen's uh Queen's South Homicide. I was gonna see if he you know had any interest in coming over. So I I had a pecking list of people that I was gonna bring from the NYPD to take a closer look at creating a task force internally. And hey, uh gentlemen, you're gonna be strictly assigned to taking a closer look at this case, see what was done wrong, and how can we fix it? And uh I actually presented that to uh the county, and I was I was politely declined and told uh that's not gonna happen. So I sat down with Kevin Byrr and I grilled him for three hours, and I kind of like, you know, Comstated, Comstat styled him and asked him every little nook and cranny about the case, and uh the guy was remarkable. Uh he didn't look at a piece of paper. I've said this over and over again. Uh he knew the case cold, he knew the the time frame and the disappearance of people, he updates regarding uh the cell site boxes um that were created from the from the uh cell hits, uh, and just a host of other information that was uh leading them in a potential direction in the in the investigation. And anytime you speak to somebody that doesn't look at a piece of paper, uh that's impressive to me. Uh that shows me that the person is a real true investigator and uh he is living. Yeah, he actually looked like he might have even had a photographic memory. So the one thing I was saying to myself is all right, well, listen, I can't get rid of this guy because in order for me to replace him, I gotta start fresh and get somebody up to speed with it. And I knew that I had like a certain time frame uh of getting this case solved, knowing that I wasn't gonna be there for a long period of time. So I said, let me let me work with this guy, uh Kevin Byron. He will he will be my guy, Tag Urray. So then I started asking, well, look, like who's investigating this case? And he shared that there was uh one detective that was assigned to the case and not uh only uh assigned to this case um by itself. So, you know, he he was assigned to Gilgall, but if something else came up, he would engage that investigation as well, which is strike one. Uh then the second thing that I asked was all right, well, listen, what other law enforcement agencies are working with us, you know, because listen, uh, this is something that uh is a blueprint in NYPD, where we always work with other agencies. We always create task forces, be it uh doing a gang takedown, be it a narcotics uh in um investigation, even uh a case where there's uh a homicide. So a serial killer case, you would think that there will be other agencies involved, and that wasn't the uh the that wasn't the case. And that was uh kind of like uh strike two. And and then like there was no dedicated uh team of investigators assigned to the case. And I said, all right, listen, we we gotta we gotta circle the wagon here and see if we get other law enforcement agencies to come to come partner with us if we want to get this case back on track and headed in the right direction. And uh the good thing here is Joe, that uh I had uh no relationships with anybody in Suffolk County. I had no allegiances with anybody. So I, you know, I I kind of came in with this mindset of like if in order for this case to go in the right direction, I kind of had had to be like, and excuse my language here, it had to be a little bit of an asshole. And I think that was one of the things that was missing with this case is somebody who was overseeing the investigation needs to challenge the investigators and make sure it's it's going in the right direction. And uh, you know, weekly updates, uh identified a designated location outside of the homicide office because one of the things that I heard, and I'll talk about the FBI in a second, uh, one of the things that I heard is that the FBI was um removed from the case and they didn't have access to the to the case. So there was a lot of little concerns to show that there were some egos involved with this investigation. And by the way, let's make sure this is clear. This is not just Suffolk County. This is all, I don't care where you go. Uh detectives sometimes we don't, we act, we don't, we act like we don't need help. And uh I've been there when I was a detective, when I was a sergeant detective. If another agency came from the outside and started looking over our shoulders, we would be offended. And that's how it was out there. So uh I reached out to the FBI and I uh spoke to uh an individual by the name of Mike Broaddock. Uh I said, hey Mike, listen, we're we're putting this task force together. We really would like for um you to supply a couple of investigators to the team. You're not going to uh have um any issues from the past, and you'll be uh able to have access to the case. And he told me absolutely not. He and he and he's like, Yeah, no, we're not working with you guys because you guys don't you guys don't like to work with us. And every time we come into the office, you know, we we're told to sit in the corner and we don't even have a chance to look at the case. And I hey Joe, I'm gonna be honest with you, I started laughing. I was like, nah, sir, stop joking around, you guys at the FBI, like you know, are passionate about you know solving cases like this. He's like, no, we're not we're not working with you guys. And I and I and I and I I heard his concerns. I said, oh, this is a a real, real issue here. So I said, Hey Mike, listen, I'll tell you what, you're not gonna have any problems going going forward. And I come to learn uh down the road after we made the arrest of Hurriman, he actually told me, he said, Listen, we're gonna give this guy Harrison a try. Guarantee you they're gonna do have the same uh uh playbook and we're not going to help him out. But he said that because I was able to give them an isolated office and give them access to the case is why they stayed on through throughout the the uh the uh the investigation. So then I reached out to the state police and I actually went to see the state police because I wanted to tell them about the the Shannon Gilbert uh situation, and then we're gonna eventually uh share the the audio. And uh had sat down with them because people don't know this, but the state police were the initial people that were supposed to respond to the Shannon Gilbert calls, and they never responded, and we Suffolk County responded, and certain things went right, left, whatever it could be. The dispatcher, if you ever ever heard it, could have could have done a little bit more of a of a of a better better job. And uh it could have brought a little bit of embarrassment to the state police, which is why the audio, the 911 call, was never released, what I believe. So uh I spoke to him and said, hey, listen, guys, we uh we're gonna release the tape. So I'm trying to build a level of trust, try to get people to start coming forward. You know, Suffolk County Police Department had a bad perception of uh uh you know being involved with Gilgo and the body disappearing and the thing with Spota and Jimmy Burke, this and the other. We're gonna try to start trying to change the image of this department. And one of the things to do that is you know be transparent and let's share certain things that weren't shared before. So during that conversation, uh I spoke to uh Steve Utis, really, really rock solid guy. I said, Hey Steve, hey, by the way, you know, we're starting this task force. Uh, do you guys have anything that may be able to help us out with the any any investigators that can help us with the investigation? Because I know you have different databases that we may not have access to. And I wouldn't be surprised at this case may be touching other parts of the state, not just necessarily Long Island. So sure enough, he was um he was all in. He provided us a uh uh a woman investigator, and I say woman and I I apologize, but two things. Number one, women don't get the amount of respect that they do when it comes to police work, and number two is she's the one that was the hammer that cracked the case, and I'll talk about that in a second. So we provided this investigator, we had the FBI come on board, reached out to Ray Turney, they provided some people, I reached out to Kevin Catalina over in the sheriff's office, they provided somebody that we could engage because my biggest thing is I want to make sure we speak to some uh either Jones or sex workers in the cells that might have had uh some type of relationship with somebody that might have been violent or somebody that might have fitted description that eventually that we would uh uh come to bear. So that's how the impetus of the task force was created. Uh there was a little bit of an uphill battle. You know, another story that I'll share is uh I'm not gonna say who, uh, but the unions were very, very upset at me because I was starting a task force. And the way the task forces out there work is if you're assigned to a task force, you get some type of stipend pay or whatever the case may be. And one of the union leaders came to me and pretty much told me, like, who in the hell who are you to start a task force? You know, you got you have to run it by our membership to before you go forward starting a task force. And I was like, this is this is that this is somebody telling the police commission that I couldn't start a task force. So these were some of the uphold battles that I that I had to deal with. Unbelievable. It was pretty uh pretty unique. Uh, but we we got the task force up and running, and then we were we were off to the races.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Wow. Yeah, the the cops are just fighting you worse than anything else. It's just it's craziness.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

That's unbelievable that they would think that they had a say as to whether or not you could start the task force.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Well, well, in defense, that's the way that it's usually worked is the unions are very, very strong out there. Uh and I had a good relationship with them. I'm one thing I'm not gonna do is knock them. But because I wasn't brought up in the Suffolk County culture, the Suffolk County Police Department culture, and I was kind of brought up in NYPD uh situation, the the police commission has a final say so, and that was my mindset. And by the way, I made a lot of mistakes when I when I went out there uh thinking that I could bring NYPD policies out there and try to change the Suffolk County to kind of mirror uh uh the NYPD. You know, and and certain things were good, other things were were met with resistance, and uh there were there was a lot of head bumping uh just from my transition, uh trying to see how I can change the perception of the Suffolk County Police Department, accountability, transparency, and and a host of other things. So uh at the end of the day, we we we were able to meet each other halfway. I had to kind of scale back my policing leadership style. They kind of understood certain things that I was trying to put in place regarding trust and and and a host of other uh recommendations I was putting in place, one of them being the reform and trying to diversify the police department and and and how they responded to mental illness and a few other things. So it was uh you know, uh body warm cameras was another thing and rolling it out to the cops and making sure that they were activated them uh appropriately. So it it there were more, I had some issues not just with the creation of the task force and this investigation into uh the disappearance of these of these um of these women that were discovered on Ocean Parkway, but also just kind of get the ball rolling as being the new police commissioner out in Suffolk County.

SPEAKER_02 16:01

Uh can I Joe, if you mind? So interesting that, and it makes sense, but the tape not being released because it was slightly embarrassing to the state police because of the 911 operator handoff. So that was you, in your opinion, one of the reasons why that tape wasn't released.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

You know, it's funny, I want to suggest that may be the case. I don't want to say that's uh with a level of conviction, but uh, you know, there were some concerns, and I you can't nobody could explain to me, but why did we not play it after all these years? Like what what was wrong with playing it? And I think one of the things that was shared with me was well, you know, there could have been a little bit of a better job by by another agency, this and the other. I was like, listen, we we have to change the perception of this department. We in order for somebody to come forward, which is has been uh something that we've been able to do so many times in investigations in YPD, in order for somebody to come forward, there's got to be a level of trust. If nobody's willing to trust us, then nobody's gonna come forward and tell us, hey, listen, I saw this person that did this, or I heard somebody did that, and such on and so forth. So my main thing was uh how do we build a level of transparency, trust to get people that may have information come forward? And then I, you know, talk about the the Crime Stopper Award. The Crime Stopper Award was was$10,000, I think it was. Uh I I I begged the guy on hand and knee and asked them to raise it to$50,000. And there was a guy by the name of Pat Fazio that was very uh instrumental in allowing that to happen. But that was another level of resistance as well. Like, ah, you know, you know, we don't really need to raise it. And I was like, listen, in order for us to get somebody to come forward, uh$10,000 may not be able to cut it. Let's raise it to$50,000. And that's something that we were able to do.

SPEAKER_02 17:48

I just remember having a conversation with Tini saying, Come on, why can't you release the tape? And he's like, Well, the lawyers don't even allow us to release the tape, but you knew they could have released tape, but it's not that big a deal, like it's not that bad. It's not like somebody hung up. She couldn't say where she was. There was just a mix, a handoff. So it was just so interesting to hear you say that. One more question, if you don't mind. So there was hesitation when the FBI came in, but Sini was making such a big deal about bringing the FBI in, but was it more on a kind of investigator to investigator issue in terms of pushing them to the corner?

SPEAKER_00 18:23

Yeah, you know, it's funny. I don't I don't I don't know why there was a reluctancy from from uh from Seni. Uh, once again, is this maybe there was some resistance from the unions and got pushback where he was just like, well, they don't want the FBI involved because they feel as though they know what they're doing with the investigation, and maybe he was uh trying to play nice in the sandbox with them, thinking that they had enough resources to get the job done. Uh yeah, and listen, uh, you know, Tim is a lifelong uh resident of Suffolk County. I'm sure he has uh great relationships with the unions out there, or at the time frame had a great relationship with the unions. But that's that's kind of like a stepping on people's toes. It's kind of maybe even borderline could be considered degrading bringing somebody else in to do your work. So that's where I think there might have been um some discomfort uh regarding bringing in other agencies to help, you know, look over your shoulder and help you out with investigation. And once again, this is I want to make sure this is very clear that is not just only Suffolk County. Many police departments have investigators that feel as though they could do the work by themselves. And that's uh was probably the situation that was uh going on uh early on in the in the in the uh in the investigation.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I I have to ask, so the night of July 13th, 2023, when Rex was arrested, what drove that decision to say tonight's the night we're doing it, let's get it done right now?

SPEAKER_00 19:55

Yeah, that was that was Ray Turning. Uh, you know, compliments to him. Uh he had some information because we were in a in a in a place where the case got uh it was a long long-term grand jury. Uh he was indicted. And uh we had a date later on that week, but somehow uh there was something that he felt that information might have been getting out there where he felt that it was time to move in at this at that particular time, due to the fact if it starts circulating that hey, the Suffolk County's uh police department has identified somebody and uh the person is this and the other. Rex may be on a run. And now it really turns into a very, very difficult case. So uh that was Ray Turney. Uh, you know, he was kind of like uh the shot caller towards the back end, and that's how that's how life works. You know, the police department does the investigation, the district attorneys uh share, especially a homicide case, they share things that you need in order for the case to go forward, to get probable cause, and then to be able to get an indictment. And and Ray was instrumental in that. So uh he's the one that said he got the information that it might be leaked out. Hey, it's time for us to move in. And uh we we did as such. My biggest fear, just you know, just for this conversation, uh, you know, Rex Sherman had like, I think it was like 97 registered guns. Uh and we had a conversation. I let Kevin Byron make the final decision, who once again I'll I'll talk about him in a second. Um does he carry a gun back and forth to work? Is this gonna be a situation when we roll up, he pulls out, and now there's a big shootout? You know, we know he's a big hunter, and this any other based upon our uh our background on Rick Sherman. Is this something that's gonna possibly turn into a big shootout? So I had some concerns. Once again, is from uh the multiple amount of doors that we kicked in from my narcotics time to my time in Intel, the great work that we did out there with the men and women. You know, sometimes. Things don't go as easy as as planned out. So I I always am worried. Uh I'm gonna make my borderline worry work because I've I've seen things go in in a bad direction, but snap of a finger where cops get hurt. So I did have some concerns about you know how we were going to do it, but uh I I allowed the team to kind of dictate regarding how we were going to move in. And the determination and the decision came to, hey, let's grab him in the city. Because we were thinking, like, hey, this do we grab him in front of his house? Do we do a search warrant at his house? Then he'll, you know, his wife will say, Hey, listen, I'll uh he needs a lawyer. Uh do we grab him in transition from he take used to take the Long Island Railroad from Aspiqua to to Midtown Manhattan? We grab him on a train, that could get a little a little uh um a little hectic. Uh so the decision was to grab him uh coming out of work uh in the city, and uh it was executed perfectly. Uh the district attorney's office provided a a van to transport him back. And that was another thing that came up was do we take him to an NYPD facility or do we take bring him back to Suffolk County? And the decision was to bring him back to Suffolk County and see if he's willing to talk during that hour and a half ride back and share any information about it. But when he was engaged by the homicide investigator, uh he didn't say anything. He pretty much said, What is this about? And he was told that listen, you're under arrest for the uh the murders of the women on Gilga Beach. And he said he had a lawyer. And I'm gonna be very honest with you, and I share this story anytime I do uh guest speaking about this case. If somebody, if I'm grabbed for somebody goes, hey, listen, we're locking you in for stealing a bike and I didn't steal the bike, uh, it's gonna be very, very um, they're gonna get a lot of resistance. Um, they're gonna get pushback. I'm like, I'm gonna scream and holler, what the hell are you talking about? This and the other. He's being told that he's being locked up for the Gilgow Beach case and he didn't say anything. I'm like, like, how do you not say one thing unless unless you're guilty? And I think that was uh an important telling sign of where this case was headed in in the judicial process after the the handcuffs were on.

SPEAKER_02 24:11

Wow. Can I ask a question? Do you remember the moment when uh you heard and maybe it was the state investigator saying this to somebody like you got your first inkling that this may be the guy?

SPEAKER_03 24:29

When was that moment?

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Uh that was in late March or early April. Like, I I don't I don't remember the date, uh, but I'm gonna be very honest with you. Uh, when we had an individual by the name of Rex Herman as a client of Amber Costello. I'm I'll be honest with you, I was still in a place where, well, we still got to continue investigation. Yeah, all right, he was a client, but you know, what what does that mean? It doesn't mean that he's the actual killer of all the 10 uh, at the time we thought 11 uh bodies that were discovered on Gilga B. So he returns to a person of interest. And listen, uh, and Joe, you'll be able to appreciate this. And for my investigators out there that are listening, you know, just because you get a person of interest doesn't mean that that's the person. And I'm sure there's been tons of times where there's been a person of interest, you do a background check, you look into them, and the person pans out not being the person. So I did not show a level of excitement. I was I was happy that they're doing their work, and now we could do follow-up and start looking into this guy that was 6'4, 6'6, you know, 300 pounds, you know, bushy hair, ogre, drove a green avalanche. Yeah, he was a client of Amber Costello, but I actually wanted a lot more of other clients to take a closer look at other uh clients of some of the sex workers. And you take a look at Rex Remer, he didn't have any arrest history, he didn't have any arrest history, he didn't have anything of uh domestic abuse. So I as much as it was somebody that we could take a closer look at, there was not one point where I was like, oh, well, this is our guy. I was like, no, but listen, we got to continue the investigation, and that's where you gotta think about it. That was in either late March, early April. I'm still sharing the Shannon Gilbert information, I'm still sharing the audio, um, excuse me, the video of Megan Water and coming out of the holiday in to see if somebody remembers that that situation. And I'm just raising the reward. We're we're doing a lot of different things on the website to see if anybody is going on a website that may you know be somebody that we could turn into a person of interest. So the investigation did not stop when Rex Sherman was identified.

SPEAKER_02 26:39

But but when what was the moment at which you were like, this really he looks real good? He looks like he's real good.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Oh, yeah. So when we started seeing his lifestyle and and what he was about, and he was into sex workers and some of the internet searches from the subpoenas that we that we put out there and some of the graphic and nasty things he was he was looking up, slowly and gradually, I'm like, oh, this this guy has uh the potential of being our person. Plus, you know, once again, is this he lived in Massapico Park where the um cell tower hitch were from, he worked in midtown Manhattan, you know. But once again, is this he didn't have a history of any type of violence, but he was definitely in the world of dealing with sex workers. And as we slowly and and continue to go on, you sort of seeing some of the things that he was involved in. Uh, when his wife would go out of town, and I think she was flying over to Iceland and some other locations, he was very much into uh the sex work activity, uh engagement, I should say, excuse me. But uh, you know, listen, it wasn't anything uh nailed down until the DNA uh came back, which is which is another story that I like to share with everybody. Yes, go ahead. Let's let's let's hear it. Yeah, so um the strategy in the game plan was to go through his garbage. You know, once he dumped the garbage out, it's it's uh accessible to anybody. You don't need a search warrant or anything of that nature. And we got a couple of of uh uh uh DNA from a couple of items uh that were recovered from the garbage, but it necessarily it wasn't necessarily from from Rex Sherman. It was, I think it was one was from his uh his daughter, I think the other one was from his wife, but that still didn't nail down uh Rex Sherman at the time frame. So we, you know, this is one of the things that were there was a bump in the road where we would have like major disagreements in the weekly meetings with the task force regarding, hey, do we do a strong surveillance or do we do a weak surveillance? You know, who's gonna do the surveillance? How do we make sure that this information doesn't get out? Because the media was always so inquisitive about this case. So we started conducting a stronger surveillance into him, and the investigators caught him, I'm sure you know, with the pizza. We recovered it, got his DNA, and we sent it to uh the lab out in Pennsylvania. So now this is where the problem lies. Uh when they sent the items to be tested, I and this is when Joe, you're gonna appreciate this. And the NYPD, we let it be known, hey, listen, this needs to go on the top of your pile of uh of doing a uh a search or connecting the investigation from the the pizza crust to the the hair follicles that recover from some of the sex workers. I wanted to let it be known, like this is a this should be a priority, this should be in the top of the pile. So weeks go, a week, one week goes by. I go to the to the homicide investigators. Say anything, anything come back yet? No, nothing yet. Two weeks go by. Hey, you know, where do we stand? You know, anything come back? No, nothing yet. Three weeks go by. And guys, this is getting crazy. Like, why are we not getting information about a hit? Did we tell them what this case is connected to? Uh uh a long-term, this is not just uh uh a carjacking that happened in Manhattan. This is a serial killer case. Like, why did it take so long for them to do the match? And I and I started getting frustrated, and uh I I kind of did what uh that we do on uh in the NYPD. I I sent my deputy police commissioner Anthony Carter out there, said Johan, do me a favor, take a ride out to this to this uh lab and try to find out what the hell is going on, why does it take so long for this DNA to come back? So he took like I think it was like about a five-hour ride to the lab. Uh he sat down with the with the scientists, and they didn't know anything about the case uh being uh a serial killer case and this and the other. So he explained it to him. The scientist that was uh supposedly uh looking to do the examination was getting ready for a wedding. So, you know, she had her own things going on in her own world where she didn't realize this was something of importance. Once Anthony spoke to her, uh she was able to do what she had to do, boom, came back, hit. And uh now we're we're we have probable cause to lock up Rex here. Oh, that's frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

It's not one thing, it's another, right? You don't know the half of it.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Why'd you tell us the other half? It was borderline. Like I'm I'm actually thinking I was in the twilight zone. Like, why the hell is everything going? Why does everything gotta be so difficult here? Like, why can't we just all work in unison and get the job done? And I I I I I just couldn't understand it. It really was uh a very, very unique just uh uh uh journey out there regarding this this investigation.

SPEAKER_02 31:40

Can we actually break that down for a second? And and we get it. We get it. We've looked at all the, you know, we've looked at all the dirty laundry. I mean, do you think it's just the the the case was so tainted from the earlier issues with Burke and Spota that it was just nobody wanted to touch it because it was so tainted, or was it that plus how difficult it is, plus the issues between tyranny and maybe the rank and file? Like, which do you, or was it just all of it, which do you think was really the worst issue that that that made it what it is?

SPEAKER_00 32:11

Yeah, so um I I will say this uh whatever mistakes happen in the beginning of the investigation, uh I never looked into it. Excuse me, regarding uh Burke, Spota, what was or was not done in the beginning part, I I didn't really get so caught up in, well, why did he do this? Why did they I just kind of wanted to move ahead. I just kind of wanted to kind of rejuvenate the case. What do we have and let's go forward regarding the missteps and the mishaps that happened in the beginning? If I spent time on that, I would never be able to get anything done because there were so many uh shortcomings in an investigation. Uh it's probably the reason why it took so long for it to uh get to the point of identifying a person of interest. But once again, is this I didn't look into that, you know, what mistakes were made, or the one thing I will say this uh Jodine Hart, my predecessor, she did some good things, which I I couldn't even understand this. And just think about this for one second. 10 years later, she does a press conference regarding specific evidence, the belt that had two initials on it. So my thing was this, and I apologize for cursing, uh, so I'm sorry, but why the fuck does that take so long? Like that's specific evidence that the public should know. Hey, have you seen anybody with this belt? How is that not shared right away? I couldn't understand it. So you gotta understand what I'm going through. You see certain things, and you're like, well, maybe there was people in law enforcement involved, and who's working with who, and what's the cover-up, and whatever the case may be. Once again, I didn't look back. I just started looking forward and seeing what we what we need to do to get closer to getting this case going in the right direction, get people to start trusting the Suffolk County Police Department, getting people to come forward, share information, share evidence, and a host of other things that you know could have been done better from uh from uh the beginning of uh of the of the case.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

I fucking asked here now. I asked me, I said, will you not just share one piece of information, you know, so that we can get the case moving? And it's so frustrating to hear you actually say that like it's RH, it's on, you know, or not that, but it's the belt. Oh my God. So frustrating.

SPEAKER_01 34:35

I'm sorry. Yeah, it would have been definitely something. Right, Rodney. This would have been like City would have thrown it out the day one. Hey, listen, we got this belt. But I I always say this too, and it sounds funny because we we we're gonna circle back quickly because we kind of glossed over because we were getting involved in the other thing. The the investigator from New York State, you know, finds the car, right? Within six weeks of you putting this together. I mean, that finds the avalanche, right, and gets this case off the ground. I mean, is that the like seminal moment that that's that launched this case into the stratosphere, so to speak?

SPEAKER_00 35:05

A thousand percent. And uh, you know, uh, you gotta think about it. The case wasn't digitized, by the way. That's another thing. That uh we had to send it down to Quantico. Compliments to Anthony Carter, he knew somebody and got the case digitized. Um uh we tagged somebody with with doing it, and uh they bit by bit started taking things down and getting the case digitized so anybody and everybody could have access to uh the uh the investigation. Uh but when she was able to go through the case and she started looking, and Joe, you're gonna love this part. She started looking at the part about Amber Costello's roommates. Everybody's saying he was her pimp. Uh, I think they were just roommates for for whatever reason. And one of the things that they used to do is they used to rob some of Amber Costello's clients. So you know, she'd come in and she'd set up an appointment with somebody, this and the other, and the two roommates would rob the the Johns. And they were gonna rob Rick Sherman. There's only one problem with Rick Sherman, that reason why they didn't rob him. Guy was 6'4, 6'6, 6'6, 200 pounds, big. They're like, all right, no, we don't we don't want that smoke. So we they they left him alone. But they do remember him driving off in a green avalanche, and that was documented. So the state police have a database called TLO, where she took in uh that database, and it kind of connects them to uh DMV, where you could put in green avalanche in a certain area and identify uh registered owners. And by the way, I you know it's funny, is I don't know how many registered owners have green avalanches in Massapico Park. Uh, but I do know this. One came back to it in a registered owner called Rex Sherman. And then he started looking to Rex Sherman and a lot of other things, and he realized, oh, this is the person who the roommates were talking about. Oh, yeah, look a little bit deeper. Oh, he is a big guy. Oh, wow, he's looks like an ogre. Oh, he does have bushy hair, you know, oh, he does live in Massapico Park. And that's one of the things where we're like, all right, well, this is a nice piece right here. This is a nice nugget, Joe. This is something that we got to start running with and seeing if he's connected to this investigation. Or was he just a John and just left and and we have to move in a different direction?

SPEAKER_01 37:33

Yeah, no, I I I always said too, I try to explain this to people that you know, as a supervisor in the squad, if I would have missed something like this, or the detective would have missed I honestly I and I know for my old job, I don't think that this case would have lasted much longer after seeing the green avalanche in the case file, right? It would have been a lawman search, it would have been it would have been down to town going, uh, what about this avalanche, guys? What what are we doing with this avalanche?

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Well, you you know, you know, and and and Joe, uh, it's funny you said that because you know, one of the the things that I got kind of got chastised about when I went out to Suffolk County is I started creating a ComStat. We didn't call it a CompStat, we called it a CPR and um uh command performance review, excuse me. And the pushback that I got challenging commanding officers, I I can't even explain, but so much great work was done because we started creating this CPR, you know, quasi-comstat meetings, and we were able to hold commanding officers accountable and investigators accountable and this and the other. So believe it or not, that Comstat accountability, you know, going through people's cases, challenging them, it works. And it worked out in Suffolk County, it worked in this case, and it worked in New York City, and it and it works in New York City, excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 38:50

Yeah, it's dumb and it keeps you on your toes, too. Especially, man. The boys are gonna go. Can I ask you? I go down there, you embarrass me, you're done.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

You know, you can because Joe and I have talked about this. Is there a reason? I mean, you must have seen all the original police files when you went. First of all, it was digitized so quickly, it must have been on the top of the pile, right?

SPEAKER_00 39:11

So, number one is uh I didn't go through any of the case files, I just got updates. I got weekly updates. Uh, you know, I think a lot of people um think that I went out there and interviewed people, went through cases, uh, did surveillances, this and the other. I actually believe it or not, you know, it's funny. I actually did my own surveillances in the beginning based upon the information I got and other information. People were sending me letters to my house regarding, hey, this is the perpetrator in the Gilgo Beach investigation. And I actually ran with a lot of the stuff that I used to get and do my own surveillances because I didn't know who to trust. You know what I mean? So when I heard about the Massapua thing, I kind of did I just drive around, look at certain areas where would this uh somebody meet up with sex workers? I got information about uh uh a retired uh police officer that might have been involved and a whole it was it was apps, I was all over the place trying to do my own investigation because at the time frame and initial stages, I did not know who to trust. And that was one of the one of the difficult parts about it. But uh once we got Rex Sherman on our radar, um the most important thing is I just wanted updates. I just wanted to let them, hey, all right, what do where do we stand? What's what what did you do last week? What are we doing going forward? And if it wasn't done, they gotta explain to me, well, why was that not taken care of? And I wouldn't take uh, well, I had a couple days off, so I didn't get around to it. That was that there's there is absolutely no excuses that that would fly past me. Once again, is based upon my getting my my uh asshole chewed out in NYPD. So that's kind of was the mindset going into Suffolk County. I wanted answers, what was but done, and what are we going to do going forward?

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Amazing. Um, you know, when you think about it, you look back. I guess it's always they always say it's easy to Monday morning quote you back these things, but but some of these things you just kind of say like it was it was glaring. It was right there, yeah, it was right there. This wasn't like pulling a rap.

SPEAKER_02 41:07

Did they tell you that the previous invest that the previous detectives had already interviewed Dave Shaler four times and giving him in the line up with the trucks and all that stuff? They did.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

He did tell me that they spoke to him uh regarding connecting it to Rex Hurman. Uh that was well, that wasn't done because it was done by the by the uh state police investigator. But that's something that I was wondering, and by the way, there was a host of other things that they shared with me where I was like, well, well, why why do we not do that? Well, why are we why we not do this and such such and so forth? And I had a lot a lot of questions and and and certain leads that I wanted them to kind of take a closer look. And some of them were right, some of the things I shared, you know, was going in the wrong direction. These are these are things that investigators go through, especially dealing with when it comes to homicide investigations. There is no cookie-cutter way to conduct an investigation and act like it's always going to go in the right direction. There are always going to be turns and misdirections and going down the wrong road, and you got to come back and then start all over again and look at a different person of interest and you know, find out that that person had nothing to do with it. It's it really is uh a science project behind what you need to do to be able to catch a killer.

SPEAKER_01 42:30

Let's talk a little bit about the search warrants. I have, like many other people, the storage unit, right? We get the Emmy comes and then we never heard an end of that. Can we get a little insight on that?

SPEAKER_00 42:42

Yeah, you know, it's funny, I don't know all the all the details about every little bit of evidence that was recovered. A lot of things uh occurred uh post uh my my time frame once I left in no in November. Uh once again, is this the would share uh certain items that were recovered? But there was a lot of work we're going to the different locations, be it South Carolina, be it Nevada, uh the storage facility in his house, uh going underground and looking for things where anybody's discovered uh in it in his backyard and a lot of different other layers of work. But regarding the every little bit of evidence that was recovered, I didn't dive that deep into the questioning. Uh once again, is this the most important thing is we had to start getting ready for the judicial process, the discovery, and making sure everything was going to be transferred over to the defense team.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Uh you you spoke about those original Google searches. Do you remember getting the Google searches and kind of looking at them? Like, what stood out in your mind about the Google searches? Is there any one that particularly like whoa?

SPEAKER_00 43:43

Yeah, the the one that that creeped me out the most was Nazis raping Jewish Jewish women or something like that. Uh when I saw that, I uh I was I'm gonna be honest, I was freaked out. I was like, oh, this guy is really a uh disgusting, disgusting human being. And listen, uh, you know, internet searches are internet searches, you know, everybody may do kind of certain queries, wherever the case may be, for for certain reasons. Uh, but you know, that coupled with the other searches that he was involved in, uh, showed what type of animal he was. And uh, you know, it wasn't like it was just a one-time search and looking into something. This was something that was coupled with a host of other very, very nasty types of searches that uh really uh really grossed me out, man. But it just kind of shows you, and and you know, and you know, it's funny, it's funny that you asked that question. You know, one of the things that I wanted to do is I wanted to make sure in our one of our meetings, and as we were getting closer, I was saying, listen, just in case this thing eventually, you know, just say hypothetically he ends up being our person and we end up being a problem cause and ends up going, we have to show what type of person he is, what type of character he traits he he has, and showing that these internet searches and you know his uh his engagement with sex workers and a whole lot of other things just kind of strengthens a situation while now you're in trial, you show what type of person he is, type of character he is, which will help, of course, a juror, a jury, which we we didn't have to get to, but a jury to say, yeah, listen, this this person here is is really got some issues.

SPEAKER_02 45:26

Uh it was interesting that there was uh a search for um Asian twink and transsexual too.

SPEAKER_00 45:33

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which that's why I'm not ruling out uh John Doe, uh the Asian male that had uh women clothing on. Uh unfortunately, uh that individual still has not been identified. But is there a chance that Rex Sherman one day wanted to try something a little bit different? I right now I I'm not ruling anything out.

SPEAKER_02 45:54

Well, based upon his internet searches, he wanted to try a lot of things, correct? Yeah, a thousand percent.

SPEAKER_01 46:02

And we don't know, I mean, half the searches, right? Because they only put in some of the affidavits, and I even think the district attorney said basically we can only put in the ones that we can we can put in there. I mean the house. Are we are we 100% convinced that these uh well we'll let's call them cases, these these incidents happened in the basement?

SPEAKER_00 46:22

You know, I'm not even sure if that's confirmed. Uh I know that there was uh conversation that they were that they were looking into it. Uh, did Ray Tierney share, once again, there's a lot of things happened post uh my my my time frame um uh uh time frame as the as the police commissioner, but I'm not even sure if that's confirmed that the bodies were uh killed in the basement or were they killed in his uh in his truck or wherever, the hotel, you know. And listen, there's probably still a lot more work that needs to be done. The task force needs to remain intact. Um, listen, between the eight bodies, between 1993 to 2010, uh, you just take a look at different places where body parts were discovered, everything from Fire Island to North Sea to uh Ocean Parkway to Manorville. Uh, you know, I I got some concerns, and my only request would be to continue to keep the task force together, start looking at any other sex workers that are still missing and see if they're anyway connected to to Rex Sherman. Or are they connected to another uh psychopath that went out there and killed sex workers? So, you know, that's something that I think should be uh taking a closer look at. And uh how they came up with uh Sandra Castillo all the way out there from 1993, Rex Sherman was about 31, 32 years old then. Uh and from there to 2010, you know, I the search should continue to go on. And and not just in Long Island, by the way, maybe even the state, because I know he was a hunter. We know that he used to go down to South Carolina, we know that he used to go out to Nevada. You know, we have to make sure we're working with all our law enforcement partners to continue to search going and be able to bring some type of closure to families that have lost a loved one to this to this animal.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Yeah, I mean, I I I think everyone remembers you coming up to the podium and saying this guy is a demon. I and I I think you might have been you might have been speaking too nice of him, you know, when we're finding out all this stuff after the fact. But, you know, um I've known you for a long time, and for you to come up and say that about somebody, I said, wow, this guy is a really bad dude. I mean, we we were and we can only imagine, like you said, what's going on. I mean, like you said, Asian male doe, um you Carmen Fargas' name has popped up in the conversation. There's been a lot of these cases that could be fit in his ML. You know, I mean, I'm sure you guys were looking at all these way back when, right? You did the same thing. You said, hey, how many missing persons' cases, how many identified human remains, how many different things? I mean, do you have a do you have um like when you were talking about this, was there a was there a number that ever came up, like saying, hey, how many this could fit in the pattern?

SPEAKER_00 49:11

You know, the the there wasn't a number, and you know, uh, that's a really good question, Joe. You know, the first thing is whereas the the Gilgo 4, which we believe were connected to Rec Sherman because they were all within the same uh uh vicinity. Well, you take a look at uh the other ones that were a mile away, two miles away, you know, we were trying to figure out whether it was maybe it's a dumping ground, or is it something where uh, you know, he dumped bodies over here, dumped bodies over there, dumped bodies in other places as well. And once you take a look at Castillo being out by the Hamptons, uh you take a look at Valerie Mack uh and and uh another young lady that escapes my mind right now, but uh where they were discovered with Mandeville being uh dismembered and um uh some of their body parts being put over there in Ocean Parkway, you know, it it it it it makes you it really makes you wonder Karen Vrigata, you know, being uh situation on Fire Island and her skull being discovered over there. You know, uh it really the the investigation should not should not stop. It really needs to continue to go on and see, you know, are there other sex workers out there that have not been accounted for?

SPEAKER_02 50:27

You said originally we thought 11. So I assume you know Peaches was kind of in that group. Were you surprised by the arrest of Andrew Dytz in the Peach case?

SPEAKER_00 50:37

No, I wasn't. I wasn't uh you know, when you have a situation where you have a, and once again, it now goes to maybe there was a little bit of a dumping ground situation here. Uh but uh you know, the more you look into the peaches, and then once you find out that she was in the military, uh you kind of realize that this might not have been a situation when it came to to uh somebody that's involved with the sex workers. Um so that's one. And you take a look at the situation with Shannon Gilbert, you know, a lot of people are trying to couple Shannon Gilbert with the the other, we'll say, eight, eight bodies that were discovered there. Uh her body was discovered five miles, anywhere between four to five miles away from from everybody else. That is a is a very, very long way, if you if you take that into the equation. And not only that, it was also on the opposite side where the bodies were discovered. So if the bodies were discovered on the south side, hers was uh was discovered on the north side of Ocean Parkway, and her property was recovered. In contrast to everybody else, nobody else's property was was recovered um near where where their bodies were found. So there's there's a lot of differences from that case. Uh, unfortunately, uh Shannon Gilbert's mother, who was a very, very vocal person in the beginning part and had her levels of frustration, I you know, want to say might have uh kind of made this case a little bit more of a priority, but uh I truthfully believe it was an unfortunate incident and a tragedy that what happened with her when she ran from that location and and ran into the march. And unfortunately, uh what I what I I believe is that she drowned, based upon the information that I saw.

SPEAKER_01 52:34

What do you think pushed Rex to finally say, all right, I'm gonna say I'm guilty?

SPEAKER_00 52:42

Let it rip, Rodney Food. His family, his family. Don't don't let him, don't let anybody BS you any other way. He does not want to bring any embarrassment to his family. That's what it comes down to. And if he goes to trial, every little nook and cranny of things that he was involved in will be exposed and the level of embarrassment that comes to his family. Regarding, oh, he's worried about the families of the uh of the victims. I call it absolute bullshit. Um, if that was the case, he wouldn't have waited, what is it, three years now, almost three years, to to take a plea. And now all of a sudden he wants to stand in court with a smirk on his face. Now he he's more worried about the embarrassment that's gonna come to his family. And and compliments to Ray attorney, I'll give him another kudo here. Um, the stuff that he put together regarding the discovery in his case to kind of put him in a corner show that, yeah, listen, maybe it's in your best interest to take a plea because a lot of things are gonna come out that may embarrass you. And and you know, he he went in the direction to protect his family, which is what I believe.

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Right. Well, you built the prosecutable case. You built that, you built that lockbox so that Tony can take it and say, here it is, figure it out, do it just yes, of course, the DNA, the fights and all that other stuff had nothing to do with the police. But you know what? I mean, you think about it, some of these cases 30 years old where the cops did the right thing and and actually save these hair follicles and all this other evidence. To me, it's mind-blowing because if you remember, Rodney, when we first started, this stuff was like put everything in plastic bags, do everything like this, you know, and and you know, and to have it and be able to test it 30 years later, it's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

Yeah, yeah. And I think that's one of the reasons why as a society we're in a better place when it comes to combating and fighting crime, uh, because of the advancement in science and the advancement in technology uh has made us better in law enforcement. Now, also, you know, the criminals have capitalized on that as well. But I think because of uh everything from facial recognition to license plate readers and all types of other technology and the sciences between DNA and latent prints and other things, we're we're we're way more advanced in being able to uh protect communities and hold people accountable.

SPEAKER_02 54:57

Um one interesting thing that's come up, and for some reason, I this wasn't we didn't make this big a deal about it early in the investigation, but bounty towels and the fact that there was a bounty towel found in one of the victims' mouths. Can you explain that whole story for me?

SPEAKER_00 55:15

Yeah, and once again, that information came out post my uh retirement. But uh what I did come to learn is that uh Megan Waterman did have a uh bounty tissue uh in her in her mouth, I believe. And one of the pieces of evidence that was recovered uh was uh a roll of bounty that had the same print as the uh item that was recovered from from Megan Waterman, which kind of helps uh the investigation. Now, I I do believe the FBI was able to take a deeper dive and attach the role of paper towel to the uh item that was recovered from the from Megan Waterman and and put it together. How they did that, God bless them, but that that's the reason why you have to have other agencies involved because they have the technology to attach certain things to to certain people.

SPEAKER_02 56:08

And and were you there at the were you still there at the time when uh you guys discovered the planning document?

SPEAKER_00 56:17

So uh I was, uh, but there was a lot of other things that were recovered post that time frame. But that that planning document was uh another thing that kind of okay, this these are all the things that are going to strengthen the case going further and being able to uh put this individual in a place where uh he's gonna be found guilty no matter what the case may be. So any little bit of evidence that can help strengthen and put layers into the investigation that can prove his guilt uh really was was instrumental.

SPEAKER_02 56:52

But you know, I I I remember being with Joe on the day that there was this planning document, and and he's like, I've never seen anything like this. This is unbelievable in terms of evidence, but just the nature of the document itself. Have you, as an investigator, ever come across anything? And what was the what was it like when you guys said, uh, you know, boss, someone's gotta look at this thing. It's nuts. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:17

Uh, so I don't think I've ever seen a a planning document. Actually, there was there was one case in Manhattan when I was a chief of detectives. There was uh something of a of a planning, how I'm gonna kill this individual type of document. It was a little bit different from the one with that was uh discovered from Rex Sherman. But yeah, that I mean that's just one of the many things that we were able to discover that kind of uh put Rex Sherman in a place that listen, he'll he'll never see the light of day again. I mean, uh this is just great police work. Uh a lot of great investigative steps were put together. Uh listen, Rex Sherman was very sloppy in how he kept things around him. And and uh, you know, once we had him as a person of interest and we were able to make sure, and just think about this. This is actually one of the things that needs to be shared, is the our ability to keep this case under wraps. So it doesn't get out that we have a person of interest by the name of Rick Sherman. Because imagine if that got out. Now he starts getting rid of evidence and start. So he had no idea we were coming. And that's compliments to uh the men and women in Suffolk County, uh, the investigators, the district attorney's office that did a phenomenal job of keeping it low-key. So now we were able to be able to move in and recover a lot of evidence, which was able to connect into the bodies and certain other uh very, very violent things that he was involved in.

SPEAKER_01 58:50

Do you know if there was any evidence that actually um brought him on with the Karen Vagata case? Or is this something that he just did gave up in proffer in a confession? Do you know anything about it? Yeah, uh I don't know like it was weird.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

Yeah, I don't I don't know. Um uh was there something behind the scenes where they were able to connect it? I I'm not sure, but uh listen, that's uh that makes number eight. But unfortunately, I I don't think that uh the investigation is over. I think they need to still continue to work and take a look at sex workers that are unaccounted for.

SPEAKER_02 59:25

Um what are your thoughts about this uh behavioral science unit mention in the in in the plea? Uh strange, kind of came out of nowhere, but what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 59:39

I don't I don't think it's strange. I don't think uh I think it's um a great idea. Uh if you if you ask me, uh just based upon what I've seen with Rick Sherman, I don't know how transparent or forthcoming he's gonna be. Yeah, he said he's going to cooperate. Yeah, he's gonna uh share, you know, his mindset on why he did this and and certain things. Um I don't know. I I I have my my different thoughts of just based upon what I've seen of him from from behind uh from behind the scenes. Uh but I I will say this it will help investigators, especially from the FBI, to be able to get a better understanding with the mindset of why somebody would become a serial killer and commit so many crimes, and that will help out future investigations. That's where the the level of importance is gonna come in because you're able to kind of get a better understanding. And God, listen, one thing we I don't think anybody wants to see is another serial killer case, but unfortunately, the world that we live in, uh, there's gonna be another one. Uh, we have to know the what the mindset is going to be in order for us to maybe identify a character or a person that maybe fits uh a description that would do these types of heinous types of uh heinous types of crimes.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:56

But can you just oh I'm sorry, can you just you said from what you saw behind the scenes that you don't think he's being transparent?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:02

Can you I don't think he will be transparent.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:05

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:06

I just why why do I say that? Listen, uh, you know, just him not uh coming forward in the beginning. Listen, it took him two and a half years to finally uh take a plea, him smirking in the courtroom, uh other things that uh that kind of troubled me with how he carried himself. You know, now he's gonna be in a prison cell and now all of a sudden try to open up his mind why he did why he did what he did. Uh I I could be wrong. I could be wrong. Maybe he is, maybe he will be forthcoming, but uh maybe it's just me being pessimistic. But what but in in essence, it will help our future investigations uh down the road, knowing the mindset of what what a serial killer does and what makes them what makes them tick.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:51

But uh what what troubled you in terms of your conversations and like what you know as an investigator, you must have interviewed tons of people who lie and do all this stuff.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:00

What was the tell? Well, I never spoke to Rex Rem. I never met never spoke to him, never met him in person, uh, never saw him up close. And I I say this all the time. I was a police commissioner. That's not my job. Uh, that's the job of the investigators. Uh, my my job is to make sure that they have the appropriate resources to do their job and whatever I could do to help them out. But uh when it comes to any engagement that I worked, Rex Sherman, I think that would be a smack in the investigator's face of saying, hey, listen, I I want to meet, I I didn't want to do any anything that I didn't need to do. The most important thing as a police commissioner is get the fuck out the way and let these guys do their job. Well said.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:42

Did you get a lot of phone calls when Rex Sherman was arrested, like from different states, and saying, hey, we want this guy's DNA?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:49

Uh actually, we we did not, but we did a lot of outreach ourselves to see, you know, based upon certain places that where he went and uh see if we could uh attach it to other locations. I know there was uh something in Atlantic City, if I recall, where there was a couple sex workers that were missing that we weren't able to connect. Uh, we of course I said this before, uh Nevada, where he had a timeshare, South Carolina, we reached out to that department to see if they had anything uh that matches this situation. Uh, but it's good that the word gets out. And I'm hoping, and once again, this might be something that might have happened uh post my time there. You know, there may be other police departments out there that may say, hey, listen, we have some sex workers that were missing over here. Is any way we could take a closer look? What has it happened, maybe? Uh, but I apologize. I don't I don't have the answer for that. Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:40

Well, once he gets his conviction, New York State will put it in the federal databases, DNA too. So I'm assuming we might hear something something then, right? I mean, there's also besides the Shannon Gilbert case that just never, you know, so there's some people that just won't let that go. The other thing is the district attorney and even yourself made it abundantly clear that uh Asa and the kids had no idea what was going on. Could you talk about that for a second?

SPEAKER_00 1:04:07

Yeah, you know, uh once again is I um it's it's it's it's it's hard to be able to determine if they did or did not. Um the type of lifestyle that he that he lived and a lot of stuff that he did uh was when she uh was out of town. But were there clues or certain things that might have raised her suspicion that, hey, my my husband's involved in some type of activity, I'm just gonna close my ears and my eyes and just let him do whatever he has to do when I when I'm out of town. Uh, I know when the uh investigators first told her that, listen, you know, your husband's been locked up for uh the Gilgobeach serial killer case, you know, there was a a high level of denial and there's no way this and the other. And then once there was a little bit of an explanation, uh what I was told was she came to her senses. So regarding uh her having any role, it it's it's hard to say regarding her having any knowledge that he was involved in sexual uh worker activity. I I I I I wanna bel I I wouldn't be surprised if she knew something.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:22

Yeah, I mean, especially when you say, you know, when you bring up the belt, right? I mean the belt, I mean, is it is it the grandfather's belt, or you know, did we ever get any final word on it?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:32

Yeah, well, supposedly, you know, has the grandfather's initials, uh William Hurman. Um, but you know, everybody doesn't watch the news. Everybody doesn't turn on the TV and say, oh wow, I remember my husband had that same type of belt. So as much as we want to sit here and say, well, how does she not see the news and not see this belt being distributed and not connected to her husband and this and the other, uh, as much as I want to sit here and say that she might have had some uh knowledge? Of some of the things that he was involved in. I I can't necessarily sit here and say that everybody watched the news and saw that press conference that Geraldine Hart uh put together.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:12

Josh, you have a final question for uh Commissioner?

SPEAKER_02 1:06:16

Well, I well, it's very interesting because both Tierney and yourself had are pretty adamant that there are other victims out there. Uh, and and now the work is to get to those other victims. So do you you believe there are other victims out there?

SPEAKER_00 1:06:33

So, you know, I I could be wrong. Uh, but once again, it's this from 1993 to 2010 was with the the last body that was discovered, eight bodies altogether uh dumped in different parts, mainly on Ocean Parkway. Uh, there were periods of two to three years on some of them, and some of them were back to back. Uh, I will say this, uh, I think Brett Sherman thought he was able to get away with it. I think he thought he was invincible. Um uh I find it hard to believe that there's only eight bodies between 1993 to 2010. Uh and are there other dismembered bodies in other places in in Suffolk County? Um I I I don't know. I don't have anything necessarily to share to say yes, absolutely. But my gut believes just knowing uh the type of animal that he is, I would not be surprised if there's more bodies out there. And you know, it's important that we continue our investigation, or they continue their investigation into uh going into different people and seeing if there's any connection or information that could come forward to share a discovery or a missing body of a sex worker that has not come home over a long period of time, and is it connected to Rec Sherman and follow uh another case or open up another case into that investigation to see if there's a connection?

SPEAKER_01 1:08:12

And I just want to have one final question, Rodney. So when the last body is discovered in 2010, I mean, from the time from 2010 to 2023 is a long time. Were you guys worried that this was, you know, this could there is another basically dumping ground? I mean, do we really think he just stopped because of the bodies were uncovered?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:33

No, I think I I I I uh and by the way, the other name was uh Jessica Taylor. Jessica Taylor and Valerie Mack were the other uh bodies that were discovered over in Ocean Parkway, so I apologize. Um but uh yeah, there's the you know, there in Suffolk County, there are a lot of parkways, a lot of rural areas where bodies can be can be dumped. Uh listen, it's it's gonna be virtually impossible to scan the whole landscape of Suffolk County to see um where there or are there other bodies out there. But the most important thing is try to work with individuals that are in this lifestyle that may have some information that can maybe hopefully identify uh some other sex workers that disappeared, haven't been discovered. You know, try to track down where they might have been last seen and conduct another investigation. And it's and it's only it's only the right thing to do, especially for the uh for the family members.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:35

Well, on that note, Commissioner Harrison, I want to thank you for spending your time on a Sunday afternoon with us. This has actually been enlightening, and you answered every one of our questions. If you could just guys hang out one second while we say goodbye to everybody in the chat room, it'd be great. Thank you for all. Thank you for all the gifts and everything. I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to call out each one individually, but I just want to let you know I saw them and I appreciate it. Thank you very much. You guys have a great night. We'll see you. For more shows like this, check out True Crime with the Sarge on YouTube or on my official website, josephjackalone.com. This podcast is owned and operated by Sarge Media LLC. All rights reserved. Thank you for listening.