Rex Heuermann’s Wife Speaks: Josh Zeman on Asa Ellerup & Peacock Special Breakdown

In this gripping episode of True Crime with the Sarge, retired NYPD Sergeant Joseph Giacalone sits down with acclaimed director Josh Zeman to unpack the story behind Asa Ellerup, the wife of accused Long Island Serial Killer Rex Heuermann.

Following the buzz around the latest special on Peacock, this episode cuts through speculation and headlines to analyze Ellerup’s perspective, her public statements, and the broader implications for one of the most notorious serial killer investigations in recent history.

Zeman, known for his deep investigative storytelling, offers unique insight into the making of the documentary and what viewers may have missed. Together, we explore key questions: What did Asa Ellerup know? How does her story fit into the timeline of the Gilgo Beach murders? And what does this reveal about the personal lives surrounding alleged serial offenders?

This episode delivers expert analysis, insider perspective, and a no-nonsense breakdown of a case that continues to captivate the nation.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode:

• Key takeaways from the Peacock special on Asa Ellerup
• Analysis of Rex Heuermann’s case and the evidence timeline
• Behind-the-scenes insight from director Josh Zeman
• The ongoing impact of the Gilgo Beach serial killings investigation

Transcript

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This podcast contains adult language, adult topics. Listener discretion is advised. True Crime with the Sarge, the audio files, is owned and operated by Sarge Media LLC. Please consider liking and subscribing to the channel. Good afternoon, everybody, and welcome to a very special edition of True Crime with the Sarge. With us today is our usual guest, right? Sinister Sarge Sunday. But Josh and I are in person for the first time ever. So this is kind of cool. Very exciting. It's actually pretty cool that you finally get a chance. How many it's been what almost 10 years we talked on the phone? Is it really? 2017, I think it was the first time. Jeez. So finally, right when the case is ending, over. We managed to get it together. But still, so we got a lot to talk about today. This this Peacock documentary. It didn't really provide a lot of answers on certain things and then kind of answered other things. But I mean, your overall takeaway was what? I was shocked. First of all, it felt like a reality show with a serial killer's family. Like it didn't feel like a documentary, like I'm used to. So that was interesting in terms of like how they got how they discussed all their feelings. And the the the days, the four days. That was crazy. Um but um it also made me feel really uncomfortable. Yeah, now there's a couple of things, you know, we're gonna get into it as the show progresses, but I thought there was a couple of things that were kind of gratuitous. The reenactments, yeah. The reenactments, I thought yeah, I thought that was unnecessary because you you're I mean, listen, the guy standing at the top of the staircase. I don't have you know, want to do something for boating, I get it. Yeah, but yeah, some of those other things I I thought were really unnecessary. No, because they had so much good information, right? So you didn't need to go that far. And it was actually kind of I actually I watched it twice. Okay, you know, the first time I watched it took notes, and the second time I took even more notes because you you miss certain things. So yeah, anybody who didn't see it, you know, it's just a this is a spoiler alert, folks. We're gonna oh, yeah, we're gonna talk about just about everything and anything. So if you didn't see it and you want to see it, you might want to come back for the replay. But uh, we'd love to see you stay here for the live. Also, we want to welcome everybody in here, and we're gonna get we're gonna just jump right into this. I think there were a couple of like wow moments, and I think one of the big wow moments for me was when Rex finally decides to tell Asa what happened, and she goes to the meeting, and she comes back and she speaks to the therapist and the attorney Bob Macedonio. Yeah, and when she's like, What did he say? And he's like, Well, he killed eight women and Macedonia, eight, like he that was a genuine, like right, you know, whiskey tango foxtra moment, you know. Uh but but he had already mentioned that in the proffer agreement. We assume, right? They just didn't know about it, right? They didn't know about it. Yeah, the defense they you know the Oscars didn't know about that, right? But you assume that Suffolk County DA's office knew about it because he had mentioned it in the proffer. Yeah, the timeline we want to get into a little later on. The timeline kind of see for me, that's the biggest thing. Oh my god, Joe, eight months, yeah. And what was going on? There were DNA fights, there was all kinds of crazy stuff, but we're gonna get into that because I have many questions. I was like, wow, you know, I mean, geez, it was it was it was surreal, so to speak. I think the biggest problem, even today, you know, Asa still kind of like is on the fence. I mean, she still loves this guy, she still, you know, I know she said, Yeah, I probably been married to a serial killer for the last 29 years, but I don't think that stops her from from still like thinking about him in a good way. No, I mean you saw that she smiled when he called, and and they, you know, he like they're talking about like I'm not done with you yet, you know. I put up with you for so many years. So scare you away. I didn't want to scare you away. So strange, it's very obvious that um there's some kind of codependency, and I don't want to um we keep saying this now, and I think it's important uh you don't want to um armchair psychiatric somebody. Oh no, but but there's definitely some uh issues. Yeah, I think issues are a good word to do this real bad, and uh, you know, it's it's kind of planning. I I am surprised people saying, Well, she still had something to do with it. Uh you know, I think watching and seeing it, it kind of puts that issue to bed. It's just more sad than anything. Listen, one thing is the takeaway out of this for me the same way Rex picked his victims, yeah, people he can control, people he can manipulate, people he can dominate, is the way he picked his wife, too. Because another big moment for me was when when they started talking about the first wife, and she's and Oz was kind of like blowing it off, like you know, that's the big deal, kind of thing. And then she's like, Oh, like you know, he didn't pick me because he could control me. And then the the therapist jumped right in there. I like her, I liked her, yeah. I liked her a lot. But when she jumped in and said, Oh, what did she say? What did he say about her? Yeah, oh that she said, she's I she started off with the word crazy, yeah, and then uncontrol and she stopped, control, yeah, couldn't control, and then she that was like with a light bulb moment. That's what I had. I actually wrote down light bulb moment where she realized that you know, tag I'm it, yeah, that's sad. I mean, if anybody thought, I think that she had any involvement in this, I mean, you watch this thing. I you have to feel sorry for her in so many aspects, yeah. But the like the that whole that whole situation where she's sitting with the therapist and she's just like, oh no, and even then but mob Macedonio jumped in too on top of it, like kind of carrying, you know, just like totally said, like, well, geez, you know, he kind of he could do all this with you. I I think as a documentary, I'm thinking in my head as a documentary director, and there's stuff in shooting that I could never shoot, not in a million years, like I couldn't just do, I couldn't do it. But do you think a lot of that stuff came out? Okay, actually, this is a brings up the point. Eight months before the plea deal, they were all talking about this. All this information was on the table. They knew about this so long ago. Yeah, and they and then the next thing I you know, I have an issue with the defense attorney on some of these things. Well, because he knew his client was guilty, and I understand that he has to, you know, that's rare that a defense attorney will find out that your client did it. They don't want to know, they just they don't want to know, right? You know, because it makes it easier for them to deal with the with the um compartment, yeah, compartmentalization, just like serial killers, apparently. Oh my gosh. Uh, but no, when you think about this, he knew about this and he was still doing his motions and he kind of kind of softens that blow a lot because I think he knew he was gonna get blowback on this. Eventually, somebody was gonna point it out and say, dude, you knew your client killed eight women and you were still doing they did the the the DNA stuff was still going on, the motion to separate was going on, all this stuff was going on during that time frame. Yeah, but he said, I needed to give my client the best possible what do you which is true. I understand that, but I'd like to know like how many defense attorneys find out that your client is actually guilty and still have to go through the motions. I'm sure for him it was like it was like it was tough. Oh my gosh, yeah, conflicting. Absolutely, yeah, because here you are trying to defend the guy and get him out of jail, knowing he did it. Yeah, he did this. Well, uh I mean the question do you really think he was ever he ever thought he was gonna get at it? He also probably never thought well he probably also thought he was gonna plea, right? When the time came, maybe, but how about this though? He fought that DNA thing tooth and nail because it was so new that he had a good chance of getting that by the judge. Could have that was a 50-50. That was not a slam dunk getting that DNA in there. So, do you think they said he's ready to plea, but let's see what happens with the DNA. Yes, yes, and I actually you and I think we've we've talked about that a couple of times. Like the evidence has just become overwhelming. As a matter of fact, the standing joke was me is like this guy hasn't won a motion yet, yeah. Yeah, right, yeah. I mean, um I spoke to Michael Brown, by the way, oh uh very recently on the phone, uh, because I was trying to set up some interview, and he goes, You and that guy, Joe, you guys were like, every time we had something, you would say you would say it, and we're right on the money every single time. And so I was that was kind of nice. Yeah, that is kind of cool. I guess and I I give the guy kudos. I said he's people who are in trouble that have DNA in their cases. He and the and the other, I forgot her name. Is it Kush? Yeah, her last name is Kush. They're gonna be lining up for these guys because they they have already gone through the the case, and they even said it in the after presser. And and when I was preparing for today's show, and not only did I watch the peacock thing, but I went to those presses after he pled guilty because I was looking to see if there was any clues. Uh-huh. And well, he was too they would talk about the DNA and how they were going to go through the process through the appeals court because of the fact that it was so rare and so new and everything. So they he knew where this was headed right from the get-go, because why he had the quote unquote inside information that his client was going to end up pleading guilty. They both had the information. Oh, of course, the whole team did. Well, I'm saying not just the defense, but the prosecution. Yes. So him saying there's no deal on the table. Now he was being forthright, he was being true, right? Because there wasn't technically any deal. There wasn't a deal. Actually, we talked about Ray Tierney, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I always look at you know, and I we know that that district attorney Tierney watches the show too. Yeah, uh, so that's kind of cool. But they're both watching the show from what we're saying. But he, you know, like you said, he has tells, but he actually, by saying, you know, in hindsight now, right? Yeah, he I didn't because he didn't put the plea on the table. This has nothing to do with the district attorney's office, yeah. They were still ready to go all the way through, all the way through, whether it's whether it's bounty paper towels and whether it's it's the right uh eyewitnesses from Amber, like they had everything ready to go. They're still gonna go through them. Yeah, well, listen, this case was airtight, and we have gone through this so many times. I mean, they built an overwhelming case and just the DNA. Listen, there is I have a list of questions that we still don't have answers to that nobody's asking these questions, right? I thought the when I was watching the after press uh pressers, and when Asa was going to talk, and then that one reporter kept on pelting her. We're like, How did you not know? You live with them, and then then Massadina's like, all right, everybody screw everybody, and I'm like, dude, you just sunk everybody's battleship there, right? Right, by taking away the opportunity for her to elaborate on other issues, right? Where she might have said something that you you would have gotten. I mean, at that point, because there's been very few times where Asa's been allowed to talk, right? Yeah, and let's let's talk about that for a second, right? So she is very able to be molded and controlled, and and even her lawyers are doing it to her. So, you know, I understand. So, Ren, thank you very much for that super sticker. I really appreciate that. Thank you very much. Sorry about the delay on that. We just want to we didn't want to lose our train of thought here. Uh Rex has gotten to a point where he is in the kind of in the driver's seat now. He's gonna have the FBI behavioral analysis unit come talk to him for years on end, he's gonna string him along. But one of the problems that I have with not only with Michael Brown uh saying it, but Asa saying it, like like there's only eight, there's only eight, like Rex kept on trying to like hammer in there's only eight. I don't believe that in any sense of the imagination. Uh well, nobody does. Now we have another person who's telling us first we have Rodney Harrison, then we have Tierney, now we have the best profiler there is, you know, John Douglas, or or there was. So everybody's saying that. I think the eight is the that's my story, and I'm sticking to it. It is kind of tragic that the other victims that we believe, whether it's Carmavargus, Asian Doe, um, whether or not you believe Peaches, or at least uh, you know, baby, Tatiana, and Tanya, they're really getting lost, they're already getting lost in the shuffle. Yeah, and that's why I've actually even you know, because both of us are planning on doing other shows on yeah, other potential victims or just victims in general, have to um of we have to right of other people out there that could fit this whole thing because I do not think in any stretch of the imagination that there's only eight. No, everybody said there hasn't. And you know, I want to get back into the John Douglas thing a little bit later, but uh, since we're talking about this right now, basically he said he didn't stop, you know, he didn't stop, you know, and that's that's something where you and I have talked about this. There's a 13-year-old-year gap between the last time, and they try to address it in this documentary. The the therapist was saying that the reason why because they asked him why'd you stop? Well, I wasn't getting the satisfaction anymore, you know, whatever. And she's she attributed to more of the fear aspect of it, yeah. Where they found the bodies because they were looking for Shannon Gilbert. Yep, they remind me about Shannon Gilbert and Michael Brown stuff later on, too, because he got himself in a little bit of a faux pas there. Okay, uh, you know, and he it didn't do it for him anymore, so he kind of just like stopped. Yeah, oh god, I find that so hard. Well, of course, that because you call BS because the other issue is the planning document somehow writing it all out in the planning document helped him not commit the crimes. Yes, yeah, right. It it settled his urge, right? The planning document, having all the tools and all of the the preparation stuff. I I mean I call BS on that just as much as the same, which so which means I uh I would like to think it's more of the impotence, you know, important, you know, impotent type of thing of you just get so old and you you don't have all the you mean the aging out of crime thing, yeah, yeah. I would like to think it's more of that. And again, looking back at some of the studies that have gone on with Safric saying it's more about aging out and just not having the testosterone, but what about before? Yeah, the third there's a 12-year period where he was still in his 50s, you know. But even what about before? Yeah, well, John Douglas addressed that too. Yeah, he said 30. Oh, uh yeah, he's like, I don't know about 30. I uh what I'm just saying is I'd rather concentrate on before because it feels like between us, between the Web Saluth community, between every one of us, we've looked at every single possible victim after, yeah. But so it feels like everybody's looked at that. Not that's not to say those people aren't victims, but I'm just saying it's really the the lead up is where there's more of a blind, a general blind spot. Yes. The proudest mommy, thank you very much for that super. I really appreciate that. Jad, thank you for the super says. Didn't someone say the they arrested him when they did because he just bought another burnophone? I think he was just using it for a different disposal site. Okay, thanks for the question, Jade. And the super we we kind of had that addressed with Rodney Harrison. This the the had nothing to do with that, right? He said it had nothing to do with that, had to do with the fact that you can't keep a secret in Suffolk County for more than a couple months, and they were uh it was it was going to get out that they were trailing him. Look, right when the arrest happened, what actually happened the day of the arrest in terms of the information getting out? Rodney Harrison had a pre-press conference with Ballone, but right outside the house beforehand. Like they people were jonesing to get that information out. People were manipulating and and jockey for position to be the ones to to get that information out. That's what was happening behind the scenes, right? And you know, that'll like I said, it's easy to look in hindsight now. You look back for some of those clues and you say that's why I went to the press. I think that was a clue. I think that was a clue that we all were like, well, but what's Rodney doing with balone, right? Because you didn't see baloney for anything. We should have a whole can we put on the calendar baloney when he showed up. We should have a balone show. Well, we his name's been thrown around. Yeah, that one's oof. If you notice, he hasn't no one's even brought him up. You know, we we said uh yeah, we well, we said though, but no, but there was no um, you know, thank you to Kevin Bayra. There was no thank you to Rodney Harrison, but no, you know what? There's no thank mention of Steve Ballone either. He was the supervisor at the time, the executive, yeah, suffer county. So what is that? Yeah, well, because he's kind of tainted with James Burke and uh you know Thomas Spota. He's lucky, but he's lucky, he is. Uh let's get into it because the big story was the of course the Karen Vogata as the eighth victim. Allison, who was the the therapist, says I wrote this down here, says Karen was the pivot point to make him more comfortable for future killings. That's that was the thing, and I wrote that down because I find that odd. I don't know about the pivot point because we had Sandra Costilla first, who was the the only one that was theoretically that was not like fully premeditated, right? And is the only one that wasn't killed in his home, which which indicates the lack of premeditation, right? So which goes into lack of planning, too, because it happened in his truck. That's what I mean. Yeah, the Dodge Ram. Right. So one of the things we're gonna bring Mindhunter into this now, because in Mindhunter, John Douglas talks about trying to identify the first victim that you have in a serial case, because that's the opportunity where the perpetrator made the most mistakes, where he was the most comfortable. Yep. Where if you take a look at this, you know, she's all the way out in North Sea, nowhere near his home. He drives the far, well, Mark Saffric says you drive the farthest for your first victim. Well, that's to dispose. Okay, there you go. All right, well, then that's a different story. But that would be generally your victims, right? But it would actually kind of contradict what John Douglas had said, though, because Douglas says that it's where he was most comfortable, where he lived closer to or worked. But in this case, it might be where he was duck hunting. Uh Sandra Castilla was uh just a couple miles north of a place that we can't 100% confirm, but that um it's the Hamptons um gun club, that gun club that's just south of North Sea. Or he went hunting in that area is all because two hunters found her. Um that makes complete sense. Missy Kitty, the Mindhunter book by John Douglas was the book that we were referring to. It was the one found in Rex's home. Yes, and by the way, uh on Sinister, um, on our if you go to our Patreon, we're going to be doing uh the next book that we're doing is Mindhunter as the book club. Nice. So you should come in and have a look. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, that would that's if if anybody hasn't read that book, it get into it's a it's a good segue into the forensic psychology of these guys. Yeah, I read it as a long time ago and as a young cop because I wanted to get into this kind of investigation. And we were and what's so interesting is that John Douglas was from Hicksville, yeah, from Long Island, yep, Long Island guy. We tried to get John Douglas for the monster podcast series. Called him up and went to his agents in the whole nine yards, and we were trying to get him and trying to get him. He kept refusing, and now we know why he's refusing because he was doing the Psycho zombies already on the P. Yeah, and he's gonna be at Crime Con this year, too. Yeah, so Laura, thank you for that. Super says it won't be easy, but look at Oscar's travel and match with missing women. I don't believe he started killing late in life or took a break to due to impatience or low testosterone. Is it really about sex or hate? Well, they kind of explained it as more about that power, dominance, control, manipulation. You know, unfortunately, these women are get into their your car very easily, they meet out, and you know, which brings up another point, too, about like he did this not on the first date, but like on second dates or subsequent dates, right? They didn't really say it only happens on the second date, right? It could have been the third, fourth, fifth, who knows, but it didn't happen on the first date, which is kind of interesting. Um, and the four days, you know, we had the first day. Uh the four days is interesting, but I think they glossed over it, and I think I think it's dangerous to take to assume that's how it happened for every single one. Well, I do too, because if you look at the Karen Bagata case, right? Uh she disappears on February 14th, 1996. Her remains are found on April 20th, 1996. Yeah, but she that was when she was last heard from right, last seen, not when she disappeared, right? Well, she was last seen on the 14th. Yeah, but she was transient, you know. She could be anywhere. Yeah, well, she was in jail before that part, you know. So I'm just saying, like, just because that was the last time anybody had been in contact with her doesn't necessarily put the time of death. Yeah, and this is 96. Like, we were definitely not so digitally. Well, we could come closer to that time of death because Rex gets married on April 13th in Sweden. Oh, oh, oh, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm saying. Now we really know, right? So, yeah, so now he's getting married. So that was so bizarre. Karen's legs are found in Davis Park on April 20th. He gets married on April 13th, and you know what's funny? When they were on the phone with Rex, when when Asa asked more Massadane, I don't know who asked, like, how. Long was it before you went to Sweden? And he's like, Oh, it's like a week. And she jumped in and goes, Two weeks. And then it was like silence on the phone. Right. So he was once again trying to dupe everybody there. So she puts she puts that timeline now in a in a in a better position where you can figure out exactly when that happened. You know, um, it's it's kind of strange how this whole Karen Vogata thing came out because I guess Rex just mentions it in the proffer.

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And that's it. You know, there's no there's no grand jury. I thought he were gonna talk about possible uh secret grand jury where he admits to this. That's not the case, and they don't have any evidence to prove that he did it, they're just going by what he said. And I thought this puts to bed the whole idea of whether or not she was at the house earlier or the swing thing. I thought it would put stuff to bed, but people are still no, no, yeah, no, nothing's gonna be put to bed. We're gonna do a show on on all those things. Rumors that don't die, yeah. Right. I mean, that whole thing. Uh, you know, so Allison talks about that he divides his world in between like his world and the in the real world, you know, because she's talking about his compartmentalization. We talked about that, yeah, doesn't rig regulate his emotions, yeah. You know, and then she first meant she gave a little foreshadowing because she mentioned four things. She mentioned the prepping, the planning, the playtime, and the cleanup, which I didn't understand the consequences of it until later on in the show, where we find out about his four-day plan that he talked about, you know. If anybody ever thought that he was not an organized killer, well, yeah, folks. Yeah, I mean, I know that because that's that's another argument that he's not an organized killer. Oh, he's very organized. Oh my god. He's a hoarder. Uh, like there's you know, hoarding versus organized and disorganized. It's very interesting. Yeah, I mean, kept his uh, I mean, we're gonna get into the kill room before this show is over. Several things, reason why we're gonna get into that. But you know, Asa fought both the therapist and Massedinio, like the whole time. You know, she was very combative, very argumentative. She was still, she didn't really come out and say, like, you know, I'm still on Rex's team, but there was lots of proof that she is. You know, there's there's an interesting part, and I actually put the time down. At 27 minutes and 25 seconds into this show, Rex calls and interrupts the whole thing about you know why he chose her and everything. And you can see if anybody watches this again, or you're gonna you can see her neck start pulsing on the right side of the thing. Because she asked him the question and she didn't know what the answer he was gonna get, and she starts gearing up for that answer. And Rex kind of blows her off because he is kind of like, Are we on the speakerphone? All right, right, right. Yeah, so he he held back because if that wasn't being recorded, I think he would have he would have told her anything right then and she knew it because I mean you could see it. So if anybody's looking at that, the time happened at 2725 of that show. You can see what I'm talking about. You can see it clear as day. You know, she was arguing over like the planned events, and the others were not playing. I mean, like, what are you arguing about? I I the press has obviously picked up on the idea that she's sleeping in that kill room. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, it's not it's a fact that she's sleeping in the kill room. What do you make of that? There's so many. Well, first of all, neither of us are psychiatrists or psychologists, right? Um, but when I first so I like what? Like when I like you, you're doing what? Oh, yeah, well, they redid the whole place, you know, the daughter's downstairs in the basement, burning sage. Yeah, they're trying to get the spirits out of the spirits out, right? And she moves in there as basically, I guess I don't know, torture herself about this whole thing or guilt. Is it guilt? I don't know. I mean is it to be uh people are saying to be close to Rex, but I actually think it's uh it's it's it's how she's dealing with the victims. Well, she was looking at the pictures of the victims too, just like Rex does, apparently. Yeah, that was another creepy moment when they said, Well, because of the discovery, but but I also think the show, I'm sorry, the show is intentionally pushing like that all that stuff is constructed. Okay, let's have you look at the photos now. Oh, god, yeah. And so he the the director, directors or or the production people, like they know they want to push the connections because it creates these news, you know, it's like fodder for the New York Post. So understand that everything you see on that show is intentional. The boxes behind her that are that are set up to be looking like hoarding, yet some of them say evidence that's completely set up. Like that is not, they didn't just say let's shoot right here. They're like, okay, let's adjust that box and get the evidence. Turn it around the other way, put a light right here, just like we do to set up here. Like all that is constructed, right? Well, folks, here you get a chance from somebody who actually has done this for a living. Yeah, right. I mean, me, I when I was setting up the room today, I'm like, all right, uh, you move to the left, I'll move to the right. Yeah, it's all constructed. Yes. The the question is, did they do the reenactments in the house? Probably. Why not? Why would you go somewhere else? Because it's in fucking bad taste, is white. Well, hey, you know, I mean, I thought it was in bad taste to even do the reenactments to begin with. Of course, but to do it uh inside the houses, it was it. You know, we we we did learn too about Asa. She was at 16, she was molested behind her own home. She said she shortly raped, is it she said molested? Molested, okay. Yeah, she well, we once again it could be like she's blocking out what exactly. Well, that's what I'm trying to say. Blocking out what actually really happened there. Uh, there's no follow-up questions, of course, to that. And then she said shortly thereafter, I'm assuming that it was something really bad because she said shortly thereafter she dropped out of school and tried after after that, and then she tried to do yeah, take her own yeah, life. Um, it must have been bad. I'm just saying it if to hear all that in that short period of time, this was another act of um something really bad happening to somebody, but you you know, you know, she's she's a victim, folks. I I mean, I know some people aren't gonna like it, but you know, she she's a victim. I mean, and the the the the uh Allison there, the therapist is talking about the cognitive dissonance that she has, you know. Hey, listen, hearing all that she all went through and now she's going through this too on top of it. I mean, most people wouldn't have lasted that long. You know, I mean you gotta really feel for the families, though, who are watching this. Uh I hope the families don't watch this. But yeah, but the victims' families, I hope they don't watch it. Um Alexa said the same thing, but how do you mean like you shouldn't be creating content that the families I I understand, I understand. It's it's it's just all I can say is that there's somebody that is a family member and they may be watching the show today or they know somebody who's a family member. Encourage them not to watch this because those reenactments alone, I think I think could cause a major problem for them, you know, in their own psychology behind the stuff. I mean, folks, it was it was really in bad taste. I mean, if you start looking at this whole thing with Asa and the family, I mean it's kind of textbook domestic violence stuff, yeah, you know, and you know, for people I I I've seen this a hundred times. Well, I was gonna ask you I've seen this a hundred times. Somebody who's dependent on somebody for financial support, somebody who's you're responsible for the roof over their head, the food on their table, they're beholden them for everything, they end up playing the submissive role because they don't want to upset the other person and get thrown out into the street. It's about survival, really. Uh yeah, I was gonna ask you, have you seen this in cold cases? Because I'm sure there's cold cases where this truth remains hidden and buried for decades. Yeah, and then suddenly it comes out through your investigation, and suddenly everybody's like, Well, how did how did she protect him for so long? People always say, like, why don't you just leave? Why didn't she just leave? Yeah, it's not that easy, folks. Right. If you think about the situation that you're in and you don't have to do all any of this stuff, be grateful. Because unfortunately, there are so many women that have to be put through this. And as a as a patrol cop and even as a patrol sergeant later on down the road, you respond to these jobs every day. Well, it's it's also so interesting because isn't one of the biggest things in any true crime investigation when the the the husband, boyfriend, or male dominant figure either dies or leaves. Like that's your that's your in. Yeah, that's when life changes. Life can finally change. Yeah, that's when that's the break in the case. Oh, he left, right? Let's go, let's go in. So it just it's just so indicative of of how this follows other true cold cases. Yeah, no, I mean it's it's um it's something definitely the the research needs to be done on this. That's interesting. Like how many, you know, how many times this actually happens. Listen, most people are victimized by someone they know, and it's usually a husband, spouse, significant other, however we want to refer to them these days. It's just it is. I mean, you know, when you pivot to Victoria, I she's in a much different place, though. She's in a different much different place than her mother. Uh, you know, burning of the sage and all that other stuff. I don't know if that was performative or that was something really because did you see the look on the therapist's face? Like, what are you doing? Well, I mean, I guess she thought maybe she was smoking a big joint or something. Long island isn't the most spiritual place, you know. I mean, you know, it's like, what are you doing? You know, it's like I'm burning sage. Yeah, but but then again, that I'm sure the therapist probably knew what she was doing, right? And that's again performed. But that whole interaction was kind of odd, right? So they she's burning the sage because it was planned, right? You think it was that it was planned too, but she comes down, but then but the phone calls can't be planned when Rex is gonna call. This you think you can plan that too? Uh yeah, you can. I think you call when's your when's your calling time? Okay, you have an hour with which you can make the call. Okay, we're gonna do that. You don't know, you don't know how many times they uh granted it's not 100% like completely scripted, but it's scripted enough that you can do that. Yeah, because they couldn't get Asa downstairs in the basement, and so they allow him to call back, yeah, which is another interesting thing because usually like your time's up, pal. Next guy gets in there. Yeah, I that's what I usually we would usually kind of do it like that. We like, okay, he's gonna call in this time, and I would ask with to get him in with this five mirror five-minute window. If you're just joining us now at the halfway point, we have 700 people watching us live. Josh Seaman, writer director of the killing season. His information is being shared by everyone's favorite night bot. You can check him out on YouTube, of course, and of course on his Patreon. And we're just breaking down this peacock uh show. I I kept on calling it the House of Horrors, but it was the House of Secrets, yeah. House of Secrets. But you know what? Technically, it's the House of Horrors, though, because uh, and we're meeting for the first time, yeah. First time in person, so this is actually pretty cool. And we're at you know, we're in Lehigh Valley, just in case anybody knows, where are you guys? We're in Pennsylvania, yeah. W D I Y Pennsylvania. Uh, we had a screening here last night for Checkpoint Zoo, and so we got to set this up. Uh, I went to Lehigh University, I haven't been back in 35 years, so it's just very interesting uh to do all this. Yeah, it's kind of like a homecoming, right? Yeah, but let's get back to the Victoria thing. So they end up going upstairs, and Rex calls they're in the this to me, this was a major pivot point because this couldn't be scripted. Rex is kind of getting annoyed on the phone about what's going on, and he turns to the stepson and Josh. No one can convince me otherwise. The mask slips. Yeah, you have to take care of your you're smarter than the other, but the other two are gonna be sitting looking at each other for 20 minutes and not gonna say anything, right? You know, I was like, Whoa, that was yeah, that was the time when we could get a chance to see a different side of Rex because he's always like, Hi dear, I didn't say good night. That's performative, that's performative. I didn't say goodnight, I just wanted to say goodnight, you know. And she's like, Oh, hi, you know, but but that scene, yeah. I think people, I think even they got it because they they panned the the camera on both Victoria and um Asa's face, and they were like, Well, they probably they probably like the filmmakers definitely like included that to give those who are paying attention a little bit of a clue, which is like all this other because you can't fake that look, right? Right, you cannot fake that look because they were like, right, right. So all this other stuff is performative, like, oh, you know, you haven't scared me yet, but they'll include something like that to give those who are paying attention the the real signal, right? I mean, it was it was it was definitely one of those like old boy moments, and then you know, Victoria is the one that tells us about the the uh dismemberment in the in the basement in the kill room, but she slays out another thing out there that I some people caught and some people didn't. But he has he kills one of the victims in the bed in the marital bed. We'll call it the marital bed so people know that's his private bedroom with his wife. But no follow-up question on who that was. I didn't even yeah, like because your bedroom, your master bedroom is off limits to everybody and everything, and it's it's a huge sign of disrespect if you're gonna have an affair, first of all, you do it and do it in your bedroom because usually it doesn't happen that way, they usually do it somewhere else in the house if they even do it in the house. Yeah, so that's a major sign of disrespect. But the deal is this like, even when you have a party, people don't put your coats in the with the in the in the master bedroom, they put it in a side bedroom, right? Right, you know, usually it was my bedroom when I was when I was a kid, but you you know, that one, like any clue do you think who that might be? I mean, it would be a total guess because I don't have a clue. No, I don't and I thought, I'm like, why doesn't anybody ask a question? Like, who was it? I mean, there's there may be reasons as to why they didn't uh there may be reasons as to why they didn't include that. Usually there's a reason why they usually, as a good filmmaker, you will ask all those questions, but there's just reasons why you can't include it. Could you give us a reason though, like why you wouldn't be able to include that? Because maybe there was an piece of information, a victim, nobody wanted that piece of information, yeah. Couldn't it couldn't be corroborated? Um maybe it who knows. I don't know because you know, he talks about in his four-day planning thing where he was kind to them and it was enjoyable. He talked about that, and then he just snaps and kills them. Yeah, I mean, that's look, he is filtering this through the eyes of the therapist, right? Have you ever, you know, couples therapy or something like that? Like, you know, very rarely, I think, does everybody give away all their deepest, darkest secrets to the therapist. Oh, god, no, right. Yeah, so I think we're getting a very sanitized version, rosy glasses version of his murder and kills. Who knows? We're sitting here talking this as to this four days like it's fact. Yeah, maybe it's not. Maybe it's oh, what I didn't tell you was uh the prep was was a half an hour, uh, the cleanup was five hours was five hours. But what I was you know, when I was really nice to them in the beginning, sure you were. You mean you didn't torture them for two days, yeah, you know, he's he's got a four-day plan. There's no and he in his in his killing document, he talks about more rest, more fun, more playtime. But but but I'm just trying to say, like, the idea that, like, oh, I was very nice to them in the beginning seems to me revisionist history versus no, no, no. I I I brutally tortured these women for two days straight. Right, because he's keep he he's taking this plea for a reason. He's not gonna give you the exact details, he's trying to avoid all that. Exactly. Uh absolutely it would just be interesting to find out if there was only one that happened in his bedroom, and probably couldn't conclude and why I said it was either this or that. How about the the uh when when Victoria told us that he only took two Polaroids or two photos? I find that hard to believe, considering we have what 120 terabytes, uh, over a hundred thousand images. Yeah, a hundred thousand images. I mean, I'm gonna planning just the planning document line is so BS, I was doing it to urge to cut my urge. If that's BS, the whole thing is BS. The whole story is BS about about I was very nice to them. The front of the I was watching, I was watching the second time around with with Maria, and I said, I go, Hey, I got a bridge you want to buy exactly exactly and because she doesn't follow this stuff at all. Yeah, and she just said, Did he just not like did he two pictures? I find that hard to believe. I said, Yeah, welcome to the club. Yeah, you know, exactly. Uh, you know, he talks about his demons got to him, you know. This it's all he he got that from the phone. I was looking for more clues, like in the pictures. Like, where do you think those pictures were of him and her? Like, one looked like it was in the dunes, the other one, he's holding something. Did you could you tell if he was holding a camera? I was looking to see what he was holding. Oh, I don't I didn't know. I'd have to see, I missed that one. I I was because I wasn't listening to what they were saying because I felt it was all bullshit because I knew it somehow all manipulated. You know, I was looking for what is the other things, those pictures were really what what I was looking for. Interesting part. I mean, I don't think we're ever going to see whatever those hundred thousand images are. I don't think we're gonna get that because if there are victims' pictures in there, whatever, they're definitely not going to release that for foyas. I mean, how much they'll be denied, they'll be denied. Yeah, they're not gonna release it. Because listen, he they they're not gonna give us all his his Google searches either. Which you know, part of the entire plea deal wipes that all away, and this is where he knows, right? He knows that this has never gotten out, yeah. I mean, as Ronnie Harrison said, the Nazi, what is it, Nazi something, just like Nazi oh yeah, crazy stuff, sexual assault? Crazy stuff. So Kay Forcer says, Amanda Thunderburg is the unsung hero of this case in my book. By finding the courage to endure Rex's taught taunting, she served a crucial role in bringing him to justice, and also shows just who Rex was. What do you think about that? I mean, I spoke to her, she was a brave. I remember sitting there speaking to her, and she was she was pretty brave back in the day. You know, it was good to see her there and knowing that. Um I emailed, I think, uh, Missy saying how like I got choked up at the uh the idea that she's saying she was always pushing for her sister's justice and now she got her sister's justice. I thought that was really a really nice moment, too. Yeah, there was a couple of um you know the sister in the press. Yeah, the presser, you know, at the thing, and listen, there's gonna be impact statements. I think there'll be impact statements, victim impact statements at the uh sentencing. But we're also told that Rex is going to be speaking. Is that true? Well, he has to say, because they're gonna ask him, have you changed your mind? Have you, you know, has anybody coerced you into that? He's gonna have to ask him all that again. So he will talk. This is why I think this is a whole just like Burke's apology tour. I think we're on the Rex apology tour. You know, speaking to the therapist, you know, uh, like it's couples therapy, like it's couples counseling, wanting to help his wife out. Oh, I was very nice to them on one day. Like this is all BS. I agree. Like I said, I don't believe anything Rex tells me, not a word. And the behavioral analysis unit are gonna have a fit there fits with this too, because he's gonna string this along as long as he's got 700 years he's looking at. Yeah, he's going to he is going to make these guys come back and for for a long, long time, he's not gonna give them anything. Because the idea is this if the daughter and the wife are somewhat like on the fence, then he might think the rest of the world he's that good, he's that manipulative. That maybe the rest of the world is somewhat on the fence, too. Yeah, well, I wouldn't put it past this guy. That's what I'm saying. Think about the double life that he was able to carry right, and what and you know, I can tell you right now, though, the average person is an Asa. Uh, but he doesn't know that, right? Apparently not, because he's kind of feeding us this line of bullshit. That's what I'm saying. Like, he doesn't know, yeah. Like in his mind, he's got a he's got a show, you know. When he he says it twice, only eight, only eight. It reminds me of the Star Wars. These aren't the droids you're looking for, right? The Jedi mind trick. That's what I that's what I think he was doing with that. He did it with his own attorney, yeah. Um Laura Lee Laura Lee says, Thank you for the super. Says, what are the odds that he will turn on Asa or Victoria if they heal and stand up to him? As long as I was uh useful, it was good. Start healing, it's bad. Well, that that could possibly be a thing, especially when she's planning on abandoning him, right? She said she's moving to South Carolina, so it doesn't really, you know. I know Macedonio had said that you know, maybe they can get you know some cooperation with the prison system. Maybe that was part of the deal. Uh she's going to South Carolina. It doesn't matter if he's in at the Canadian border or he's in Westchester County. Who cares? But isn't she going to South Carolina to be near the brother? Yeah. It's a pain, it's a it's a Rex owns a piece of property, apparently, next to his brother. Right. So so The the oh god yeah the whole cycle continues yeah the whole cycle of violence continues right violence begets violence and this is like standard stuff but if you recall Josh I said before the show even came out that Asa was going to do herself no favors by doing this and and here we are I mean it's it's uh it you know what you can say like it is what it is it is what it is I I think the point is is at some point we should be done with this part of the story and talk about the things that still need oh yeah be addressed and and that's the that's the plan for sure and not just by the way the victims I'm sorry but there's another part of the story that really irks me that I feel that people are getting away with things and I'm talking about the people the corruption that enabled a guy like Rex to get away with oh god yes and those guys have not gotten their justice comeuppance I agree and not just that there's other let's make that happen okay let's do that but also too there are other serial killers out there who could or could not be involved in some of these other cases too you know you're John Bitroffs and even Joel Rifkin yeah Robert Schulman I mean people forget that in 1993 four active Long Island serial killers four folks that's amazing that's insane and i and i i was already a cop in 1993 so looking back on this but i i like i said i think i've said this before but i was a big newspaper reader yeah yeah and i read the news day like every day and i was following all these cases but first of all because i was interested uh it's happening in my sometimes backyard and you you sit there and you're watching this and you're saying to yourself who's dropping these kids off at the you know on the side of the road and I bet you there was one more well there was uh 1993 well wasn't uh Teresa Fus Kelly just on 48 hours with the Belladoo Richard Belladou yeah yeah it could possibly be yeah just on 48 hours so um we didn't even talk about that just being on i was that just on 48 hours yeah it was on yesterday i think yeah hot the hot skates murders yep yeah we well we did cover it we we we spoke about that well i'm just saying is it was interesting to see that it's now getting coverage there mike thank you very much for gifting those memberships oh yesterday national dna day oh yesterday was national dna day so send a a heart to othram yes there you go and make sure you know others got their own YouTube page to make sure you guys have go over there subscribe to them yeah watch the first make sure you're following Josh and of course make sure you're subscribing liking the show today uh it all helps out the algorithm for sure but I thought they they they did a decent job with Victoria where she lays out how old she was with all the victims oh yeah did you like that as from a documentarian is that something that you would have thought about doing yeah I just felt so uncomfortable the whole time because I I don't know where she's like you know I also felt that they made a point to show some of the creepy picture stuff just to make the the the airplane toys and the just to just to just to make sure that there was enough question like they're they're putting the question out there so that it continues to boil up this controversy. Right she watched TV not too far from the kill room yeah but that's where the TV was you know so yes but they but for for the average watcher says oh she was right by the kill room she must have known what's going on folks she was three when Valerie Mack was killed six when Jessica Taylor 10 with Maureen Brainerd Barnes 12 with Melissa Bartholomew 13 for both Megan Mortiman and Amberlynn's the communion thing was interesting yeah well that's on my list of questions communion I mean but they don't get into it why I mean as a Roman Catholic I understand that the well but it's but even her her creepiness even that is performative meaning like when when push comes to shove in the dead of night what does she go back to her communion like even my communion like even when we're talking about God so you know kids and even adults I like to do it too like I still have my little like creepy stuff in the corner and my little horns and everything like that. Like it's you know you kind of like to just joke around but when push comes to shove you know uh you still go back to hardcore religion you still go back to like the things you believe in like really believe in yeah someone had asked here about the uh the pictures that she was drawing back then whatever uh you know there are a lot of creepy things that kids do you know I still think you know well I we don't even know but like liking something is liking something yeah uh part of it because hey listen if they if they have it dumped our Google searches oh my god right the stuff that we've looking at even over the years i i it's and it's like it's 10 years old it doesn't you know look remember all this crap you wrote on your trapper keeper you know if somebody's gonna go and bring those back up in your life and be like see yeah well as Generation X people we don't have to worry about anything coming back and haunting us because we wrote it on trapper keeper and it got thrown out at the end of the year exactly because we didn't have Facebook we had trapper keep like we wrote it on loose leaf on loose leaf paper right ended up in the pail you know but like sure I didn't write all you know have blood and all that other stuff but man we're just going through it with a fine tooth comb I don't and that was from Amy Land she had said any insights on the daughter thank you um yeah I like I said I don't hold anything back I I won't hold anything against teenagers because we were all teenagers once you think back I always tell people think back what you used to do or say when you were a teenager. Right I mean come on stupidest crap in the world I could smack myself there were no videos cameras no iphones back then I mean growing up in Staten Island New York I said I grew up on the mean streets of Levittown I mean unsupervised Jupiter F. Yeah no no no actually well we actually lived in plain edge okay but we didn't have a post office so we had to use Levittown post office so I lived in plain edge where the the Baldwood brothers are from you know and they went to Massa Pico Park but there was the school districts were carved up I was in the island chiefs school district uh so it was really all screwed up you know how they how they drew all the lines yeah and so to speak um you know do I really believe that um well john let's talk about the john douglas thing sure i i was i didn't know they were gonna have john douglas on there i don't think anybody did i heard like rumors yeah like two weeks beforehand that they were gonna have him on and i was so jealous to be honest with you well i mean because he is the he is the man and i wanted to try and i wanted to try and get him on monster because we had mark saffric and it was very interesting um i think i said this i don't know but they mentioned uh last podcast on the left was talking about rex and they mentioned sinister and the mark saffric stuff because they were very interested in the uh ed Kemper conversations how Rex was looking at Ed Kemper and so I really am so interested in this FBI well the whole analogy analysis and and that thing that Tierney suggested Tierney says it was his idea. Well I can believe it but it's a great idea it is a great idea great idea well and the reason why I think it's a great idea is because this guy was using basically their textbook Mindhunter on how to get away with this stuff I think it's a great idea because it they need to find out how they're you know and why they need to find out but it also gives the idea that don't worry folks we are going to get answers because we're not having a trial and I know we all want answers but don't worry we are getting answers but the FBI is going to take care of getting the answers you don't have to worry. Well here comes the problem with this though are we really going to get those answers or are they going to do a research paper and put it out when they find out we're not absolutely not I mean unless Peacock is going to make a deal with John Douglas and have a showdown between Rex and John Douglas. That's what I thought that's what I was hoping and I thought was going to happen that he was going to do a full profile of him and go through everything. That's what I was going to try and have somebody else do. But listen there's a lot more and when the camera's off we're gonna talk a little bit about why this deal might have gone through and then we could try and bring it back on the next show but something we need to talk about okay um but yeah. When Alison the therapy we're gonna get back to John Douglas in a second but I I just saw a note that I wanted to make sure we we cover um Allison first sit down with Rex and he says to her have you ever sat across from a serial killer before this is like one of the opening lines but no I mean so do you know what it feels like to kill someone yeah do you know what it feels like to kill someone and she said that's like a movie movie scene 101 but she's like she was pissed you're like give the face like you're not gonna try to intimidate me and she's like you know you know you're nothing special right you're nothing special mr and she calls him Mr. Huruman now let's go back to when asa called him Mr. Hurriman I said ah she told him to go in there and call him Mr. Hurman see if he get pissed off and see if he dropped the mask or a sign of respect one of the two right well I'm thinking more of to engage his other side that she she wanted a to see the Rex that she wants to see this monster of a guy not the dear hi dear one no she wants to see the one where it says have you ever said across from the you know the from a serial killer before she was trying to bring that out and I think when she said the Misty Herman the light bulb went on for me I mean I could be wrong it's just put two and two together I make it four here. It's fascinating but but she planned she laid out he laid out the whole four day plan prepare which is about cleaning up the place beforehand which is kind of interesting because is he trying to make sure there's once again forensic countermeasures making sure there's no hairs and stuff on the floor making sure all that stuff before he puts his plastic down because then he talks about the prepping and then the playtime and then the disposal happens at night now do I believe that yes but you know what was a really interesting thing that he was timing himself because he knew that it's a vulnerable time when he has the body in the truck Joe go watch killing season Rachel and I timed ourselves with O'Clock about how quickly we could see a light and and how quickly it would pass. Like it just made sense I was like oh my god we did the same thing now granted we didn't jump out and and carry carry a body carry something over to the side but like we were we were we were doing timing experiments on that street. Yeah but here's the thing he started at two minutes and 37 seconds and he's down at 37 seconds by the way that I guess that also puts bad uh puts to rest the whole uh driving up in a boat oh god yeah well I kind of killed that was on the first when I first heard that whole thing on the boat I'm like there is I owned a boat I was a fisherman for years you are not first of all I went out at night but I knew doing what fishing but I you know because you would go get a lot of striped bass and something by the by the uh bridges specifically but going through the back bay through Zach's Bay and all around that treacherous yeah treacherous and takes too long over on the side of the road go but but it's so interesting just that we were we were doing the same we didn't have the stopwatch uh about that part but we had the stopwatch about the other thing yeah the stopwatch it was um was interesting but he was like you know think think about this is this guy is so meticulous so detail oriented and Alison said he's got OCD he's got OCD you know and that's how he's he he got himself basically in trouble too because he kept these those he kept all this stuff to himself in that respect but listen there's no question in mind that he enjoyed killing these girls I mean yeah I just don't I don't care what he says that oh I just don't believe there was like the cleanup and all that other stuff i it's like oh you know if he's so OCD he's he's spending I just it's all all feels whitewashed but you know what to Rex also counter with uh when they were getting into his childhood this is the first time we started hearing a little bit about we didn't hear enough about his childhood his father was out of touch his mother was out of reach but meanwhile us is like oh no she was great and they ask Rex about his wife she's like distant you know he she was not around I mean so we don't know we didn't we didn't get the uh the full story there either yeah meaning meaning uh you can't I don't know well the thing that John Douglas kind of keys in on too in that part of the interview BTK BTK that he said that he he's very similar to BTK and that BTK would be jealous of Rex and then third and Allison was like what and he said yeah because BTK did this stuff in his house but he didn't have a room he didn't have the playtime that he wanted he wrote about the playtime he wanted but he didn't get that time and he'd be jealous of Rex because Rex had the playtime and there was also wasn't there something about BTK maybe reaching out to Rex or there was a newspaper article or something like Rex do something whatever uh it's okay Rex. Yeah it's okay Rex it's gonna be okay Rex. Uh well that that's the weird thing right why did when the police were reaching out to BTK why did they choose the name Rex? It's as as like the code name yeah no I mean that is so weird is it not I put that out like maybe last year like it's gonna be okay is that so I never met a Rex in my entire life the only rex the only rex I ever heard of was the Tyrannosaurus Rex and the and and the BTK the a guy who's very similar to him this is completely independent of Rex Ewerman that's that's the name that they pick yeah how nuts is that it's nuts absolutely nuts coincidence. I don't believe in coincidence I think that all the time and you can you kind of throw these things at me like I'm gonna have to say yeah coincidence you know but you know what the other thing was that was very interesting BTK and Rex Hewerman both in their childhood homes. Yes that was the other thing I had that on my list yeah they both lived in their childhood homes I mean I learned a lot there you know uh they're so similar yeah they're so similar well which is which is in a way is good because you now you have two people to study and they're MO's and and the things that go along to it now there's another part of this go read the Stephen King story there's Stephen I don't know which Stephen King book it is but it's really fascinating where he writes the story of the wife discovering her husband is the serial killer. It's a really good story um it's it's a short story it's in one of his more recent books either it's if it bleeds or something like that but it's it's really a good short story. Highly highly watch it well well yeah you gotta get me the name for that I will but the thing that Douglas was getting in like you know because Alison's saying that you know he started these urges late in high school he's using pornography he's uh the books on death remember that was a big thing in the in the um when the search warrant right people like oh my god it's a crime scene book and you know the death scene books and then and of course that comes well that I mean that is that that sure you know um I don't know what to I don't know what to make about that because that's just obvious right that that well it'd be obvious for for people to see that yeah I mean yeah or it'd be obvious like I I I I have a ton of that stuff in my because I study god you know you do too right I got it you know the Spitz and Fisher's uh you know book which has got thousands of pictures of dead people in it and wounds and everything like that it's it's the one that they teach the medical legal investigators on but it's right it is the textbook on death investigation right and if anybody you know like Joe Scott Morgan you know spits and if you've ever said next time you see Joe say do you have a copy of Spitz and Fisher? I guarantee he's got a copy of it. But um he talks John Douglas talks about this thing called the preferential victim where he picks out somebody based on height weight hair color the whole nine yards and if you look at all the victims right they're all the same height they're all on the same age around the same things except for um Caravagata was much older you know out of all the victims Rex it will be okay is a direct reference to the 2005 capture of Dennis Raider not Rex Herman but how yeah so bonkers yeah so can we uh we I guess we did we talk about it right we we can't put the Karen Burgata swinger thing she was at the house previously to bed yeah pretty much we cannot we cannot because we don't have enough dates yet right but we have a timeline though and it's a well you know she she went she was running through naked in the house and then and then but Asa was there apparently but right because didn't she not want to have sex with the woman because she was African American didn't want to do something according to the story right yeah but right right right right I'm so right so then they she left she might according to that story she must have left and then came back but that doesn't see if that's the case but it does not fit but that doesn't fit the timeline then because she was already in Sweden for two weeks leading up to this oh right that's what I'm trying to say yeah let me not prove that that story doesn't make sense of course can we prove that we're we're close okay we're close can you call me when we actually prove it no no you and I are going to work on it because I got some things that we have to talk about specifically that that wasn't supposed to come up in this conversation but folks there you go you have a little tidbit of uh of maybe next week uh but yeah the timeline it won't add up yeah because this whole Sweden trip the marriage April 13th doesn't right doesn't add up it's yeah it's really tight BTK Stephen King story sorry I'm sorry that's okay and you know what yeah when she said you know he started at 30 and Douglas gotta give you that look and John Douglas gave a look and says doesn't like no 30? He goes like 30 yeah oh okay Stephen King's story inspired by the BTK killer is the novel A Good Marriage which appears in the 2010 collection Full Dark No Stars read it okay it's awesome all right cool you got that folks you got a homework assignment there yeah a good marriage novella full dark no stars read it full dark no stars got it uh it's it's King stated in the afterward that uh he was inspired by the real life case of Dennis Rader he was particularly fascinated by the public's disbelief that raider's wife Paula could live with him for 34 years without ever suspecting his crime sounds familiar sounds familiar so uh that's what do you think about Rex getting quote unquote discovery and looking at the photos and talking to the photos talking to the girls yeah I thought that was disturbing and then also not only that not only did he have the photos of the girls but he had the photos of the dump sites yeah I mean and he's doing it as discovery no he's doing it to relive these things I mean folks come on let's call a spade a shovel here yeah but you can't deny him that that's the problem I understand that that's just the way the le legal legal thing I get it I get it you can't you can't avoid it but I I thought bringing that into the story into this documentary was was they're gonna find everything salacious that they can to kind of like and then there was this you know but it is important and and we'll we could go back to Mike Brown's day you do not one of the most important statements that you ever made is you do not want anybody to criticize the work that Mike Brown did or any part parts of discovery because appeals appeals but what's interesting by the way is technically he might not have had to do such a good job because there if the plea deal was on the table part of the plea not sorry not plea deal change of plea was on the table part of the change and plea conditions which is not a deal is that there was no appeal yeah yeah no hey listen but dot your eyes across your teeth I remember I remember saying that you know I remember saying that but like I said you want to you know I I guess in Michael Brown's defense about we were talking about before about the knowing the stuff is if he doesn't do his best and he decides to change his thing he comes into this half ass once again he opens up to appeal. Yeah there's right right right so he ha he has no other choice right than to go full bore on both sides. Yeah because I know the conversation was kind of beating him up on that and I'm like I understand it I understand it but however folks appeal process is real it's a real problem can you imagine ineffectual counsel real problem look at the A Tom Pates case you know there's prime example you know that's so many years later the conviction is thrown out you know in one of the most biggest missing child cases you know ever. Yep I mean all right so we're uh we're we're winding down here almost a thousand watching us live so welcome everybody you missed our hug before yeah you missed a hug yes uh so here we got all right so let's just we'll end this on this note asa does like a little soliloquy at the end and she says I was turning it off by that okay okay well tell me what she says in some and substance right because it's not word for word because I had just as I was writing it every night I go to bed now remember folks she's sleeping in the kill room every night I go to bed to go to sleep I'm haunted by dreams every night maybe you gotta go upstairs and you know because if you surround yourself with that kind of negative do you really believe that she does that sleep done in yeah I do I believe she does sleep done it I mean the bed was there everything was made they had the photos out the flakes are not painted again it's just so hard to figure out what's cinema cinema truth and what's real truth. I get it right but I think she probably feels wicked guilty that she didn't know. And this is her way of processing it. But the problem is her way of processing it just never looks good. No. Because she's got because there are some bigger socialization issues, if you will, with regards to, you know, it um problems. So they're never going to be satisfactory. And everybody's going to be like, well, why did you just say why didn't you just leave? And I don't think she can leave. So I think she's she's she's between a rock and a hard place. Yes. And I don't think damned if you damned if you don't. Right. And like I said, um, there's you know, this story isn't over by any sense of the imagination on several occasions, several reasons. One, the Oscar story isn't done too, because there's now civil suits of people lining up to sue the family. Right now, question can they really sue because they didn't have any participation? Unless, go ahead. Yeah, usually on the wrongful death thing, and I'm no lawyer, but my research, yeah, wrongful death means that the person is directly or indirectly involved in someone's death. Which you said to me, but is not the issue about the manner in which the uh house was transferred. Yes, if anything, I think the biggest thing is this. When Rex got arrested within a short period of time of him getting arrested, he transferred all assets to the house. Right. And I think that's where his problem's going with the lie. Okay, but the problem is this that some of the lawyers are suing Asa. Are you suing Rex? Because technically, if the defense could turn around and say, Well, listen, the the transfer of the deed was illegal, you couldn't do it because of this whole thing. That's what I thought my clients out, right? That's what I think it the issue is, right? Uh, and from Son of Sam's standpoint, right? I think so. So I think the question is, is we have to find a lawyer who can tell us whether or not that's actually true. It's it's about the to me, like I said, I'm no lawyer, but to me, I think the big battle is gonna be the transfer of assets. So we need to find a we need to find a lawyer, a civil attorney, a son of Sam lawyer, basically. Yeah, well, I might it should be pretty easy because this stuff happens quite often. Yeah, it's like a probate issue or something like that. Well, it could happen in, of course, in probate for when somebody dies, but also in domestic in in in partnerships that break up in divorce, right? If the person one person is trying to hide assets and do things or transfer over to their brother or their mother, right? We've seen this where I'm getting divorced, I put my wife put the house in my mother's name now. But but that doesn't have anything to do with so that's a fair valid argument, right? But what does that have to do with the peacock money from the peacock? That's just be you know, I it's a whole other thing because it's gonna be in her control at that point. Well, she's not gonna have any money left unless she's got money, she's got no money. But but that's what I was just saying, like just worthless at this point, yeah. It but it's all it's all saying, like, she should not have made money, which granted she should have, and she should have also set up a GoFundMe for like the smartest. How would you have gotten out of it? Smartest thing you could have done is take the money and a third of what I get, and you ask Bob and the rest of them that they give money up, and you start a scholarship fund for all of the kids, and that would have that even if it's five thousand dollars for every kid, that would have definitely lessened the blow on her because this was a bad look from the beginning when this thing when this first story broke out. Yeah, but those people around her are really smart, they're smart enough to go get a show, they're smart enough to do all that stuff, they're not stupid, which goes to show you how manipulative that's what that's what I'm saying. They couldn't, they should everybody should have been like, Listen, we want to protect you. You should probably do this, you should probably, you know, there's something you can do, but they didn't give her that. They didn't did they suggest that to her? We don't know, right? We don't know if she did not because she's been denying that her husband was a serial killer from the beginning. Okay, so maybe well they might have said, Hey, listen, you need to do something because you're gonna get some blowback on this. No, no, no, my husband's innocent, I'm not doing anything. That could be a possibility. She's she's pretty steadfast on some of her things when she's I feel I fear like mentally, like we're not even there, right? You know, somebody wasn't that smart, but somebody should have said, if you get anything, whether your husband is did it or not, college fun for all those kids. I I agree, it would have definitely lessen the blow, or sometime, some type of thing, lessen the blow. Annie, thank you very much. Says absolutely love you guys together. Yeah, you know, this was a fun thing to do this in person. It's it was a little too I'm gonna say it wasn't easy trying to make sure we're in the camera talking, having a conversation. I had like a whole book full of notes. I got to almost everything, I think. Wow, but um, it was a lot of fun. Let's not wait 10 years for the next time. Yeah, let's not, let's not, yeah, yeah, we'll have to do something. I I still I still have a plan I want to do this summer, okay. But uh we'll keep that as that. Folks, we're gonna say goodbye now. It's uh wow, we did an hour and 10 minutes. I flew by. I can't believe how fast that was. So we almost reached a thousand people watching this live. So thank you very much for joining us. Thanks everybody for your Sunday with us. We're gonna say goodbye now. I'm gonna end this. You guys, I think some things to talk about. Thank you. Yes, we have a lot to talk about. For more shows like this, check out True Crime with the Sarge on YouTube or on my official website, josephjackalone.com. This podcast is owned and operated by Sarge Media LLC. All rights reserved. Thank you for listening.