Ep 8: Reviewing Mental Health First Aid

Tommy and Mel review Mental Health First Aid (MHFA) a certified course that Tommy delivers for Mindset Training. This 2 day workshop is often ran by workplaces who want to improve mental health but does it do that? 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Welcome back to another episode of Harden Up and Other Unhelpful Advice, where we read the self-help book so you don't have to. I'm your host, Melissa Harris, former army psychologist, and someone who spent a long time working with people who have tough jobs. And with me is Tommy Pauline, former infantry soldier and now mental health trainer. He works with people in jobs where harden up is still the default setting, and we see where that gets people. How are you, Tommy?

SPEAKER_01 0:40

I'm good, mate. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Pretty good. Pretty good. Excited about our chat today on mental health first aid and what it is, how it gets used, and how workplaces can get the most out of the program.

SPEAKER_01 0:58

Sounds good. Do we need to do a disclaimer at the start?

SPEAKER_00 1:02

What kind of disclaimer?

SPEAKER_01 1:03

That we sell this product in the first place. Um and I deliver it.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Um, I think that works. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13

Yeah. Perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

Well, and I guess um the reason why we're doing it is because we do see uh sometimes people do the mental health first aid program um just throwing things at a wall and hoping things stick. So part of this is about how can people get the most out of it so that when they they dedicate the amount of time and money it takes to put people on a course like this, they actually see the results.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

All right, well, let's start with the basics. So um give us a bit of a background on your experience delivering the mental health first aid course and what is mental health first aid course.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

Um but um then um later on, like when I started working in community services around homelessness and and wanting to you know be able to provide more services, uh, went off and did this course again and then got into decided I wanted to instruct on it as well. So I went off and did that course. Um but what it gives us is the ability to identify what mental health issues are at a basic level. Um then how do we work with those mental illnesses to support friends and family, um, to be able to seek further help? And it's at that base level that we're trying to get people to be able to assist themselves or and their family and friends and work colleagues to be able to get that initial help.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

So, where do you see it being its most useful?

SPEAKER_01 3:24

I actually see it being most useful in community groups um where they're they're trying to support each other, um, and especially around volunteers and stuff like that. Inside the workplace, it gets used a lot. And like you said, some people are just throwing darts at a wall hoping they're going to hit the wall. And not always used with purpose, but quite often it fits the need of those people volunteering to go off and do those courses. Um, and then we got we get good people in those courses. A lot of organizations use it with purpose, and that's around a whole mental health plan inside of an organization to fit psychosocial responsibilities, which is great. So there's a layered approach of um help with inside of an organization. The other side that I see it is a lot of the places I work in, guys would come and do the course not wanting to be there. Um, and then all of a sudden they're having these constant conversations with their mates and other colleagues, and now they've got a a system to use to be proactive and methodical about trying to get their friends help that supports them better in that help giving.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

So, is it fair to say the course is really focused on recognizing the signs of mental illness and then how do you connect that individual to support?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

That's 100% it.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah. And it sounds like your your early experience of the course was giving zero fucks about doing it. Um and that's an attitude that you still see today.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

For sure. Um, especially in male-dominated workplaces where I end up a lot, I also end up in NDIS places quite a bit where they've got a high um mental health IQ with how to help patients and residents and stuff like that. But the basic stuff around helping friends and families and seeing these signs and symptoms. But I think as a young soldier, I was made to do the course because we had a high rate of suicides in one of the units I was in at the time, and quite a few corporals and Lance Jackson stuff were made to go do it. But you know, I I'll go run this on a mine site, and the first maybe hour and a half is just stone cold faces, right? They don't give a shit, they don't want to be there. But all of a sudden, when we're talking about it in real life, how to, you know, support mates and friends and families, and making a I hate the terminology, a safe place for them to be able to talk about some of their stuff, but making sure that we can support each other through those conversations, they see the the need for this training and then further training for a lot of people on how to be a more a better support system inside of their workplace and friendship groups.

SPEAKER_00 6:10

Um, I've done the course myself. Um, and even as a psychologist, I found it um uh interesting, I found it useful. I thought, yeah, people are taking genuine skills away. But one of my reflections was about being very clear about where it's helpful within a workplace. And you used uh the term psychosocial hazards before, um which is such a hot topic at the moment, you know, everyone's throwing it around, right? Yeah. And when I think about where mental health first aid fits into it, it's one of our early intervention measures. So as much as possible, we want to prevent uh harm that hazards in the workplace cause. Um, this is not that. This is not a preventative program, but it's one about early response. If people are starting to develop difficulties, you've got people upskilled in how to have those initial conversations.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Exactly. Like if you're going to mental first aid to prevent psychosocial hazards, we've missed the point.

SPEAKER_02 7:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

You know, we've we've got to be working with people proactively before those things. And a lot of that, you know, comes into trying to build a resilient workforce, a workforce that identifies problems and hazards, whether it's psychosocial, whether it's workplace hazards, um, in the first place. And there's there's definitely better fits for that. And quite often with organizations, it's a bespoke course for those types of people that we're working with.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

That's it. Yeah. One that addresses the specific psychosocial hazards that are evident in their workplace. Now, um, another catchphrase you just used resilience. Everyone wants it. Do we know how to get it? Um you also deliver the resilience first aid course, which is similar to mental health first aid. It's a two-day certified course. Um tell us the difference between mental health first aid and resilience first aid.

SPEAKER_01 8:13

So resilience first aid is actually my preferred course. Um there's a full range of courses from high adversity, general resilience first aid, and started training within um resilience first aid training. MHFA's got a lot of courses that are similar, like a four-hour conversations about suicide, four-hour uh conversations about gambling. The thing I find though is we've got all these workplaces that we're we've we're expecting to have damaged people in. And that's why we do MHFA, how to support those people. With resilience first aid, it's how to be more proactive about being resilient in the workplace at home, in other things that we do. Work on building those skills around, you know, the six domains or what whatever that person needs to become a better product inside their workplace, better able to deal with stress as it rises. And we want to be able to put our workers under stress. We shouldn't be trying to avoid it just because we think that a mental health issue might come up. We should be supporting that person with the skills to be able to do it, not putting a course in place to pick up the pieces at the other end, if that you know what I mean. So one's preventative, and the other one is really a reactive thing that we do. So when I think about what is um, they're great courses to bookend each other. We're not going to be able to avoid injuries at work, mental health or physical. But what we can do is put the people in place to be able to support those people that you know have those early signs of mental illnesses.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Yep. And I think we'll end up having a separate conversation about resilience first aid. Yeah, for sure. It's worth bringing it up at this point because um I I have regular conversations with workplaces who have done mental health first aid and they've found it very beneficial. And they've gone back and they've done the refresher and they've gone, it's just the same stuff.

SPEAKER_02 10:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:15

And I don't want to spend time for my staff to go away and do the same stuff a third time. What do we want to do next? And I think resilience first aid is um a nice um next option when people want to grow their skills around how do you support people more proactively.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Yeah. And on that, there's another course that some workplaces choose to use, which is the suicide assist course. And for me, that's like taking a sledgehammer to a needle. Um, you've got this very small percentage of workers that may um uh look at suicide as an option or um you know take their own lives in the workplace or or be associated with the workplace. So mental first aid sort of covers a bit of that trajectory either side that can support people that you know were around that person and be able to look out for their friends and family. But suicide assist is really about dealing with that one person that's going through suicidalation at the time. Um, and that for me is a big cost for a little um little proportion of that community. Great skills to have. I've I've done the course several times myself. But when I looked at different ways to be able to do mental health education, I looked at what does the community need the most. And the first course was that I ever did was mental health first aid because it was the only one out there at the time. And then when I started working in open arms and seeing that we're missing um the point with mental health education within outside the veteran community, because the veteran community is actually highly educated on mental health issues because of their service.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

But what we weren't good at is transitioning, transitioning from um, what was it for me? You know, from defense outside defense from job to job, but also from your kids, having your kids, little kids transitioning to teenagers. Nearly every peer that I worked with had an issue with their teenagers and how they were dealing with it and understanding them. And so for me, looking at this other course fitted that demographic better. Yeah. So there's lots of courses a company can use, you've got to be targeted of why we're going to use them or why you're going to use them in the first place. Um, and then making sure you you choose the right one. But you can have overkill on some of these courses because you know, you feel deeply emotionally about something that's happened rather than how to support the greater organization more wisely.

SPEAKER_00 12:54

And I think that's a really good point about being very clear on your mental health strategy. You know, what is it that you want to achieve? Um, because one of the limitations of doing any kind of course in the workplace like this is that it's standalone and there's no follow-up for it. So, what advice do you have for workplaces, regardless of what mental health course they're running, what advice do you have that supports getting the most out of these one or two-day workshops?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

Uh like what else?

SPEAKER_00 13:29

What else do they need to be putting into action? Because just running a mental health first aid course and having yellow cupcakes on R UK Day, which happens.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

It does happen. How many times do we get asked to go to things like that?

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Like Oh my god, you're on uh level 37 in Governor Macquarie Tower, you know, in Circuit Key and the yellow fucking cupcakes, you know, and with these highly educated people that would rather be hearing, you know, a real lived experience story.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

My thing was if you my thing is have a whole of business approach to it. There's no point in just having your basic workers or your your frontline workers doing an MHFA course with no supervisors and managers, um, then having a peer network uh to be able to debrief with, um utilizing your EAP company for after you you've supported somebody in a so building your policy and procedures around somebody that's supported somebody through a mental health first aid event, and then being able to um make sure that we look after that person. Now, every time we have these conversations, we learn a little bit more about the mental health continuum, about how we can support other people and what knowledge that we get out of it. So um making sure that you know there's there's a whole of life expectancy for the training that we get and that we get the most out of it refreshes at the three-year mark, is what we expect. A half-day course at three years. You need something in between there. Um so two hour workshops, and I'm saying this knowing that we run these things, but like two hours, you know, boosters every three to six months, because you've already put these people in. Sometimes they, you know, one of the companies that we just recently did, 30 odd people now walk around with mental first aid stickers, either on their laptops, on their shirts, and they're they're put into a position where they now get, you know, people know to go to them for support.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

Yeah. So you increase the visibility of that capacity.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

But you also, yeah, you're also increasing the amount of time somebody might go to them. So we've got to keep upskilling them and making sure that they're supported throughout that role as well.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

Yeah. And I think ongoing professional development and supervision is critical for mental health first aiders in the workplace.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

It's something that keeps um me protected as an as a facilitator of mental health services by having um opportunities to learn that I talk to people about my practice. I think we need to be using a similar model to support appointed mental health first aiders within a workplace.

SPEAKER_01 16:24

Yeah, otherwise what you're actually doing is causing a psychosocial hazard. Yes. So in your quest to try to fix the problem.

SPEAKER_00 16:34

Yeah, you've actually created a new hazard.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

But it it's actually really great because if you want to take um mental first aid embedded inside of your organization, it's quite easy then to just embed toolbox talks. Once every two or three months, have somebody come in and do a one-hour session about one of the continuums that we see in the mentor first aid or something else on you know, sleep hygiene, you know, some of those resilient type stuff.

SPEAKER_02 17:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Um, and we're continuing that conversation going. Or um coaching circles, which you know you run quite a few of.

SPEAKER_00 17:09

Yeah. And I was going to mention that because that is something that can become um self-sustaining within an organization. And I've seen that done really well with a um a food manufacturing company that I worked with that ran mental health first aid and then had quarterly uh coaching circles as professional development and supervision. And it was based off Atlassian's coaching circle model. You can Google it.

SPEAKER_02 17:39

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:40

Super helpful. Um, and so I led the first uh three coaching circles, and then they just ran them after that. So it's not like uh organizations become dependent on the the providers like us forever, but it's about building systems that the people can maintain so that they're operating safely within those roles.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 18:07

Uh this is a tough question given it is a product that we sell. But criticisms of mental health first aid, like where isn't it hitting the mark? Uh put you on the spot. But that's what we do in our podcast. Like, we have a critical look at some of these services because nothing is perfect.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

So where it doesn't hit the mark, there's a few places, right? Uh sometimes our client will push people into uh these courses that are there because they're going through something themselves, and they might be the right person to be on this course at the time when they're coming thinking it's a pseudotherapy type situation. Um the organization thinks that it's going to solve their problems, and once you put on time limits and you know crams it in where sometimes this course might push out an hour, or you know, 40 minutes an hour, depending on the conversations and stuff.

SPEAKER_02 19:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

The instructor. Now I'm a really big awkward peg. I might be for every organization. But what we know is the organizations I work with is because we get repeated um feedback about. And I know that I I move away from certain organizations because you know, I don't gel with them. You know, I I mightn't I mightn't be the right fit for them, but we've got other people that we put into those organizations that do really well. Um, but your instructor, how many times have we worked with an organization that's said, you know, the last instructor we had that run this really didn't gel with the the guys or the girls? Um and it it was the wrong fit.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

And unfortunately, because most of the instructors that run these courses are probably sole providers, they don't have the option of you know, understanding that they're not the right fit for this. So therefore they take the job um and a lot is lost in interpretation, and because people switch off.

SPEAKER_00 20:08

Yeah. Um I think it's a consideration that whether or not it should be consideration, it is around cultural fit. And, you know, to give an example, um the local council who came to us recently, the um the OD manager said basically, we don't want someone in a pencil skirt, you know, and she wasn't being deliberately sexist in that, but what she wanted was someone blokey for the blokes to resonate with.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:39

That's really hard if you've got a very corporate persona and you're working with, you know, your 55 plus outdoor workers, that there has to be some kind of connection, and it's much harder the more different we are. And so while diversity in this is incredibly important, there is also scope for it's more powerful when someone similar to you is delivering a message that's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

And we get that constant feedback with with the organizations that we work. And we're pretty lucky we've got a female as well that you know that the the organization doesn't want us that uh she's happy to go and run the courses as well, and similar build and fit as me, like ex-services and um but fits into uh the organizations that I might. But it's the MHFA is so aware of this, right? That's why you've got to have lived experience, and yeah, they've got Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander specific courses that can only be run by Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander, they've got veteran services that can only be run by veterans. Um and um there's quite a few of these where you've got to hold the qualification, and part of that qualification is the lived experience. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:56

So my criticism is not necessarily of The course, but it's more in how workplaces might use it as a bit of a weapon. Um, that when the workplace doesn't genuinely care about mental health, and they start people off on this course, and they the workplace's perspective is we're paying for you to get this training, we've got an EAP, what more can you want?

SPEAKER_02 22:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

And when there isn't also a genuine commitment to addressing the issues that impact on mental health at work, that that poor fit between what we're saying and what we're doing just creates a disaster.

SPEAKER_02 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:40

And so it's a criticism of the course per se, but you have to meet the organization where it's at. And sometimes it's not the right fit because actually their attitudes around mental health are kind of back 10 years, you know, that they they're not quite caught up yet. And so we often look at other interventions while we build the appetite for something like this.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

And we're pretty lucky we've got the ability to do that, both you know, with the amount of trainers and training that we've got with inside of our organization. But when it's a one shoe, one-size shoe that somebody's bringing to a company, that's what they want to deliver. And what I get worried about is that talking them into the course rather than talking it becoming part of the plan. Yes. So, you know, we've seen it, we've seen we've got we've seen organizations do it where they've got a multinational company and they've got a corporate structure up in Brisbane somewhere, and the mine side or the um the manufacturing plan is not located at the same place, and they'll come up with a strategy for this organization on the ground. And when we get there, we've got faces that are blank or angry, like because the two aren't talking to each other. So there's another thing there that you know, doing a mental health training uh needs analysis is one thing that you know I like to see put in place. What is the organization already know? How many people are already qualified in this? Is this the right course in the first place? Because sometimes you're dropping 10, 20 grand. You know, you need to make sure you're getting the most bang for your buck. Um, so you know, we can design that training needs analysis in that mental health space to make sure it's fitting, you know, the problems that they've had already, the the problems that you know we foresee that's coming up, you know, what's the people on the ground? What do they actually want? What do they actually need? And if it's going to the organization, they're getting that information. If it's coming to us or, you know, a third party, then they're more likely to speak to us about what they actually need. And how many times do I run these courses and I'll get 15% of the stuff that's about the site and 85% is about what's happening at home. And I still think the courses need to happen, even if all that stuff's coming from home, because the more we can deal with the stress outside of work, the less we bring into work as well.

SPEAKER_00 25:14

And the more we can increase our mental health literacy across our community, whether it's workplace or personal, I think the healthier we are all gonna be. 100%. Love it. Wonderful. All right. Any final points, anything you want people to take away about mental health first aid?

SPEAKER_01 25:33

Well, well, if you ever need one, come and hit me up. If we're the right fit. Um we're not going to use this to sell our products, but you know, in a way, you know, that like I love, I do enjoy teaching this course. And the one of the big reasons I enjoy teaching it is the feedback I get years later. You know, you know, the random walking through Brisbane Casino, you know, one night, yeah. And this big bloody miner jumps on my back, and hey man, you know, and you know, not to share his story too much, but you know, I was in a really dark place until we did that course. And after the course asked you how to get help, um and you went through the MHFA plan with me and got me LinkedIn. And you know, there's several of those stories over the years that have that stick with me, and that's why I probably kept renewing my MHFA license when I love teaching other courses just as much.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:34

And who'd you do your course with?

SPEAKER_00 26:37

Uh, you delivered my course.

SPEAKER_01 26:39

I'm lady playing with it.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

I wasn't queuing up waiting to speak to the instructor after that one, though. I think we were married at the time, actually, or just beforehand. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 26:52

Right on the cusp of finishing that relationship.

SPEAKER_00 26:55

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 26:59

I'm gonna check your um date on your um your information.

SPEAKER_00 27:05

Um, but it is something that I do love. Um, the cue of people to speak to you after these kind of talks to get more information and linking with Tommy.

SPEAKER_01 27:22

Your bloody stepson.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Um, it's just it's one of the most beautiful things, especially when I see men lining up and asking you, where do I get help? And I think this that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Yeah, I agree. Like, you know, that's why I love doing this stuff. Um, it's people finally finding this somewhere that they can go to and ask, and whether it's me or whether it's them, being able to use those words is really important. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 27:48

Wonderful. All righty. Well, that was our episode on the mental health first aid course. This is part of our resilience series. So our next podcast will be on the resilience shield. Um, bit of a a deeper book I'm finding as we're getting into it. Uh, but we'll have a lot to talk about. So um thank you for listening today. If you've got any feedback, feel free to um put it in Spotify, email us, find us through the website mindsettraining.com.au, and looking forward to chatting soon about the resilience. Bye.