Ep 9: Reviewing the The Resilience Shield by Dan Pronk, Ben Pronk and Tim Curtis

Tommy and Mel step through the Resilience Shield and its usefulness with both the veteran and civilian community. This book is not for those who want an easy read but its also nice to find a book that trusts the reader enough to not dumb things down. 

Access the Resilience Shield assessment here.    

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Welcome to Harden Up and other Unhelpful Advice where we read the self-help book so you don't have to. I'm one of your hosts, Melissa Harris. I'm a registered psychologist, a former army psychologist, and someone who's worked with a lot of people with tough jobs over the years. And joining me is Tommy Pauline, former infantry soldier and now a mental health trainer. And he works with people in jobs where harden up is still the default, and we see where that gets people. How are you, Tommy?

SPEAKER_03 0:50

I'm good, mate. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Very well. Excited to talk about this book.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

I thought you might be.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Yes. Uh would you like to introduce it?

SPEAKER_03 1:01

Resilience Shield. Yeah, I first came across this book in 2020 when um I was working at Open Arms. And uh the default setting for open arms was to put veterans through uh mental health first aid training. Veterans have got quite a high literacy of uh mental health um as it is, but they've also got very low takeout, like uh they can like they don't put a lot of effort into going to courses or effort in whilst they're there. And so as a peer worker for open arms, the major problem that I was coming across with everyone that I was working with was you know the trouble in that transition piece dealing with teenage kids and um the the type of courses that we're putting on at open arms weren't hitting the mark. So I looked at different um training that we could get. Um, and then I read the book, The Resilient Shield, and thought it was a fantastic um way to look at building resilience, especially in the transition piece. Um, so uh the book just helped, you know, it talks about building a shield. You know, the name is in in there, and the the analogies that they use and the stories that they use are extreme stories. Um, and I found that this wouldn't be right for the veteran. Um, I didn't think it'd be right for the veteran community, as you know, they're comparing themselves against these elite operators. Um, you know, and there's people love hearing those stories, but are they going to see that they can put this in reality? And then the other thing why you know we obviously couldn't take it up or use it was just the cost that they had behind this program uh for their um, you know, becoming a resilience mentor. It was something like $5,000 at the time, so it wasn't scalable. Um, but you know, a fantastic thing. Um, I chose not to go and do it because I ended up going another way for a product that we can use that's scalable. But absolutely thought the book was brilliant. I've given it to so many people. I reckon I've given out at least 30 of these books over over the time. But always like everything I say, I give the book to people that I think it will hit home to, not just to anyone because you know it's you know got SAS operators in there and stuff.

SPEAKER_00 3:19

Yes, and the book is written by ex-SASR operators, uh, and it's um marketed to master your mindset and overcome adversity using SAS resilience techniques. So, I mean that's that's one of the advantages of the book. You know, we've reviewed some trash so far, and books like the Let Them Theory have diluted their message to make it accessible to the lowest common denominator. Whereas this is this is a smart book by intelligent people who are big thinkers about the why and the how of what they do. Um, I've got to admit, I I, as you know, I went into this book with a terrible attitude.

SPEAKER_01 4:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Really massive cognitive bias that I have. So to give a bit of um a summary about what the book entails, um, and I think it must have gone through some iterations over the years since it was. I think it has to, yeah. Um, but the book that we read had six different layers of your resilience shield, where you've got your innate layer, which is about your personality and your values, you've got your mind layer, which is about mental toughness, which is about your health behaviors, you've got the social layer, which is about um your social resources, who you identify with, fit that sense of belonging, and how do you build relationships with people? It's got a professional layer around a locus of control, around um how do you reframe a difficult boss, how do you connect with a sense of purpose and how do you focus? And then it finishes up talking about adaptability, which they kind of say you can't change, but uh I've got comments about that. Um I fucking hated this book without reading it because um their initial iteration of their um resilience shield assessment had BMI in it. And I was completely triggered by an assessment of resilience that factors in body weight. Um, and it just brought up a whole bunch of feelings around, you know, that size is not a surrogate for health. How dare you assume that I lack resilience because my BMI is high? Um, and so I just I discarded this book because of that one factor. And um, I'm really eating my words today because there is so much in it that is so helpful. And I was thinking today, if I wrote a book about resilience, it would look pretty similar.

SPEAKER_03 6:10

Yeah, it's it covers off every other sort of book of resilience as well. Like when we're thinking about it. Well, sorry, every other good teaching of resilience out there, there's some real crap out there, right? Yeah, but you know, so they've covered it off really well with some great stories, um, which makes makes you want to read it. And so that's one of the selling points for me when I'm working with somebody, especially from the veteran community or somebody that's you know, police and ambulance. Um you know, and I often talk about building that scaffolding around yourself, building that um um protective factors so that you can achieve in your transition, um, in your workplace, you know, when when you're going through stuff, recovering from injury is another big one about preparing for that um that that time. Um, so you know, I think it's um very worthwhile. Um, and it overlaps with a lot of other good teaching as well, which sort of sits in really well for me.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

And it it brings in good science, it brings in good examples, it brings in a bit of pop psychology, you know, all the great TED talks about mental health strategies are kind of in there. Um, there's a bit of a shout out to one of our friends, Dr. Kate Bacher, and her grounding techniques in there.

SPEAKER_03 7:35

You know, there's a so much good stuff that I'm I can remember after reading this book going, you know, I'm working at open arms now. Um if I don't have apple cider vinegar, will tequila do? Uh I I saw the text recently, it's 100% a will.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Um one of one of the things I like is like the will to win, you know, is just um just such an important undercurrent to the book. And one of the things that you and I have discussed is how when veterans leave defense, that will to win somehow disappears. And I really like that what what these operators talk about is not just how that um perseverance and the will to win help them to get where they were in service, but how it was helpful after transition as well.

SPEAKER_03 8:30

Yeah, you know, Ben talks about his um uh transition into um mining, I think it was. Um oh sorry, Dan talks about his transition into mining and and how you know he's standing at parties, and there's so much stuff that people can relate to, right? Where he doesn't feel like he knows anyone in that room, like they don't know him, they don't know what he's been through. And you know, when we're when I'm working with people in this space as well, it's you know it's quite often about who we are and how we fit in. It's not the other way around how you know we fit into other people. Um, it's not gonna work that way. So you know, I got a lot out of um his analogies, and especially I don't know if you remember when we first left the fence, we were going to business after fives and networking and RSL sub-branch meetings, and at no point did we feel like we fitted in with the business networking meetings or the RSL. We didn't fit in with you know, you being female didn't help, you know, couldn't work on that a little bit. Um, you know, because the RSL clubs we we were going to weren't progressive enough or uh weren't ready for you know, people with can-do attitudes. Like we got out of the military, wanted to achieve stuff. I wanted to heal from my injuries, recover from them, and and find gaining you know, meaningful work and use my sense of service like you in another way, and therefore our will to win came from our for me, our uh our link to sense of service. So, how can we still give back to the community whilst benefiting ourselves?

SPEAKER_00 10:18

And one of the things I really like about the book is the level of vulnerability that the authors show in that process, you know, in around what was unhelpful for them from, you know, I think um it's Dan that talks about CBT, you know, and the importance of getting therapy and and why that was important for him at the time. Um it there's just great masculinity modeling throughout the I I really I was surprised at how much I enjoyed that. And I I hope that it's accessible to to non-veterans as well, because there is a lot to take away from that version of it's not weak to speak.

SPEAKER_03 11:02

Yeah, the the way that he he delivers stories, it's one of those things, it's not the rosy baddie, it's not a trauma dump. Um, he's very articulate, like obviously the guy's very smart. Um, but I I like the way that he does delivers his trauma stories. Um, it's with a point, and it's not like it's not a trauma brag. Um, and he's delivering it so that there's a learning outcome with it. You know, when you go to some of these you know, people speaking about suicide or you know, it's all about the trauma. All the excuse me, all these current, you know, ex-criminals that are getting out there, you know, there's still trauma bragging about their crimes and stuff, and you know, their recoveries that you know, and a little bit that's happened coincidentally, not because of effort, right? Where these people have had great lives, you know, put effort and time into that. The end result from that is you know a trauma response, but working on that afterwards, um it's still um builds that framework for them.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

And the purpose to like the the trauma description is very clear and it's often the concept that they're talking about and connecting it to you you do something about it and things get better. Um a bit of context for your Rosie Baddie comment, because that was my experience. I saw Rosie Baddie speak. I've seen her as well, and seen the same thing, right? Where uh she has a very interesting story, however, um she still speaks from the wound, not the scar, of what happened to her. And I saw her speak at a well-being lunch that was all about women's well-being. Uh, and I looked around the room and I saw people dissociating, I saw people in tears, you know, and there's a time and place for those kinds of conversations, but um that the context wasn't right for that, and it was just a very repetitive trauma bombing without a specific purpose, which is usually some kind of growth outcome, is what we expect from those experiences.

SPEAKER_01 13:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

Um, should we talk about criticisms of the book before we look at the things specifically that we like?

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Um, yeah, what criticisms do you have?

SPEAKER_00 13:33

In the book, BMI is still it's still a measure. Um, even though the gents quickly go on to say that in the military, BMI was a terrible measure because you get a lot of very bulky men who are overweight by BMI because BMI is a made-up statistic that doesn't help anyone for anything. So they say it's no good, but they still recommend you go and do it to check in. Um, it's a very minor criticism of the book. Um, I I didn't love personally, I found the anecdotes hard to absorb, even though I really appreciated what they were doing, how they were doing it. I was reading it around Anzac Day. Yeah, it just exceeded my window of tolerance at times because it's there's such heartfelt and detailed anecdotes that I just, yeah, there I think there needs to be a little bit of caution, even though there is a purpose and an outcome to those stories.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:45

My other major criticism is also its strength. It's a smart book. You know, it's written for a um a smart consumer. It it trusts the consumer to be able to decipher the information. But I think it's especially the opening couple of chapters, um their hard work. I think I really had to trudge to get through um to understand their point. And the point is that we live in a complex, dynamic, and multifaceted world where the work um, but it it just I felt like I had to work really hard to get through the explanations to get to that point at the end. Yeah, I think it could be a bit more accessible.

SPEAKER_03 15:34

Yeah, I already are. Fair enough. I suppose my um criticisms, uh firstly, just to talk about the BMI, like we keep seeing that popping up in the um you know, the resilience world. Like it's popped up a couple of different times on things that we're we've worked with, or people wanting to use it in in their metrics. Uh, you know, a council that we work with wanted to put that in as their metric. Um, you know, the BMI for some people, you know, it it just doesn't make sense to use. But if you're smart enough, you know, you know, you train every single day, um, and you're still a you know, a tall or bigger lady. Um, you know, I train every day as well. You know, I'm still massive, like a big guy. Um, but we're not unfit. Um, so the BMI doesn't work for us, and I think that's got to be taken into account. What is your fitness scale? You know, how do you know that you're eating right, working right? And and that's why I like the the resilience program I use rather than using the BMI and that. But I think when people write these books, they aim it at something everyone would know. All right, here's a general understanding of why we use BMI. Um, so and that goes into the problem that I had with using the book, all right. I first started using, yeah, reading this book, you know, to learn more about building resilience, you know, different aspects of it, wanting to hear from different people, um, not just stoicism type resilience, and you know, I wanted a real grounding, you know, how many books would have I read about resilience? Um, but when I was giving this to veterans, or um, so a lot of veterans found it really hard to read, and that's because they weren't at the pinnacle of Ben and Dan and Kurt Tim. So they saw themselves comparing resilience to what they did, right? Rather than to we're building resilience, and when I think about why we build resilience, it's to improve our overall lifestyle, you know, to deal with problems better. Um, you know, if you you want to go climb Everest or Base Camp or some Mount Heard out in the middle of the ocean, then you've got to build a whole framework around it. And this is good, great, a great product to use. But for myself, it was working with people that are already sick or injured, and when you put something, these analogies in front of them and things that they mightn't have achieved in the military, it brings up you know, that psychological injury that they might already have, you know, they got injured in the pen. So it wasn't great for me to use there, and then I found it wasn't great for me to use with severe, like you know, I I wouldn't give it to a lot of different people because they're comparing themselves to these massive stories instead of comparing themselves to the analogy that is used behind it, so that the reader gets lost in the the story, uh, not the learning points to it, if that makes sense. Far away from where they're at to really get to um and you know the the rest of the book I found really good. Like I I've enjoyed it. I I go back to it every couple of years now um to to reread. I think it's well worthwhile. Um, you know, I love what they've done with the book, both writing the book, the business model out of it. Um, so I think you know, for me it's a thumbs up type. Um the six domains of resilience um that I use is very similar. We just word them differently, right? Um I did give this book to somebody though, and a year later I saw that they've made their own shield program. Yeah. I've always thought about telling Ben or Dan or Tim, like, you might want to just check out this bloke. Um and I was like, you know, the guy's you know, I don't have much respect for the guy that's done it. Um his whole emphasis on life is how your body looks, is how healthy your mind is. So if you don't have a six-pack and you know can run uh 20 Ks, then you're not mentally fit. But that's not true. If you, you know, you we work with people that have got quite severe injuries. You work with NRL players that can't do that and don't have that, right? So but they're still the top of their game.

SPEAKER_00 20:14

And I think when I think about who what what kind of groups would benefit most from a book like this, you know, I think um athletes would probably really resonate. Yep. Um, and athletes at all levels, you know. I um one of my roles is I'm the Club Align Psychologist for the Newcastle Knights, and I get to speak to um players kind of at all points at their career, and you know, I can see a lot of the pathways players getting a lot out of a book like this.

SPEAKER_03 20:45

Uh yeah, I'd you know, I'd rather see um Ben and Dan instead of the Resilience Project in with the NRL. Like Yeah, I think or even the AFL, like you know, having gratitude's one thing, and but no, like building yourself around this, watching some of those young players that go through uh the the turmoil around their mental health, um that which gets them into trouble, you know, working on those things like co-regulation, you know, uh mindfulness. I think they'd get more from this book.

SPEAKER_00 21:24

I think so as well. I think it's got a a lot more, but that's also one of the challenges. It there's so much. Like, what do you do? And I I can see this book and atomic habits kind of being very good to read in conjunction with each other. Because you get all the information from the resilience shield, but atomic habits would help you in how do you put some of that stuff into action?

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Yeah, um, they do talk about just building micro skills like it along the way. I like that. Um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:00

It's just it's overwhelm it's an overwhelming amount of information. And I think it sometimes helpful to really run out to very specific targeted type.

SPEAKER_03 22:11

Well the other thing that I like about this book is that there's a whole website to go along with it. Um you can go to that website and and grab other pieces of information. If you're working on yourself, read this book in chapters. Um, go to the website, do some of their programs, and you're really going to improve as you go. Now just jump into did you do the the resilience score?

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yes. I did uh and I remember this is what I did. I don't know, it was COVID times when I did it.

SPEAKER_03 22:45

Yeah, I remember you being angry.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Oh I was so angry because my resilience score then was 30 or 40 percent. Yeah, outraged. And I even messaged Dan on Instagram, like an angry, you know, I love the strongly worded email. Um, he never got back to me. That's okay. I probably sounded a little unhinged in my message.

SPEAKER_03 23:11

Um message Kate Mature as well on Dr. Kate Major.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

Like, wow, someone validate my emotions here. Um, but I I redid it. And again, my resilience score is not great. I got 62% of and here's where we've got to be just a smidge cautious. So when I think about the psychometrics of the questions that they're asking, I'd like to see more information about things like how valid are they? How sure are we that it's measuring what they think it's measuring? How um often do people get similar scores across short time frames? What's the test retest for a lot? You know, I'm I'm not confident, I haven't done the research into it, but when I look at things like the social layer, that was one of the things that I would my score was lower on because I don't oh I didn't talk about close relationships with family. But I'd argue that I'm one of the more connected people socially than the than a lot of people we know. Like I've got such a good network of friends and connections that um like it just very felt very unfair that family was seen as friends, like that they're an equivalent type of social resource.

SPEAKER_03 24:36

Yeah, I'd have nothing, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:39

Right.

SPEAKER_03 24:40

After my kids and you know my ex-wife we'll get on all right with um uh like my friendship groups is where all that comes from.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

So like I I just question a little bit about how valid that tool is, but I again that's cognitive bias of mine that I see myself as a very resilient person. This questionnaire says that I have room for improvement and I I want to find reasons to shoot it down, so I recognize that there's that bias there.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

Yeah, you you're also very competitive when it comes to this stuff. So understanding your bias is really good. Hey, I've I've got access to your PR6, which is your resilience score from um Hello Driven, the what the course that I'm in. Sorry?

SPEAKER_00 25:27

That was like two years ago?

SPEAKER_03 25:30

Yeah, two years ago when you did the resilience first aid training. Okay. And oh well, are you alright if I share your result? Sorry?

SPEAKER_01 25:45

Consent, yes.

SPEAKER_03 25:47

You got an 85 out of a possible hundred. An HD I am competitive. But here's the thing, which sort of adds up. You got uh you scored very low in composure. Okay, yeah, so you got like a 55 in composure, which sort of adds up to getting bad news and being able to deal with it. Yeah. And the other one that you scored average in is um health.

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Uh and one of my big challenges is like link very poor, and that brings my scores down a lot. Yeah. Thanks. Thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

Yeah. I I thought it's I sort of thought it made sense.

SPEAKER_01 26:44

Like, um and feedback is a privilege. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:50

So I didn't do their score. I I would prefer to opt out of doing any um testing, uh uh preemptive testing, right? Um, I know where I'm at, both physically and mentally. Um, and I've done my PR6 and I don't score well on my PR6, but on paper, I've got a great job, you know, good home life. Um physically, I I get to do everything that I want to do, even with quite severe um physical injuries. Um, I put work into the maintenance of them. So I find uh come to do these things, like uh, you know, whenever I'm asked to go do another scan, like I'm like, what's the point in doing this scan? We already know. Are we gonna find out more bad news that you're gonna preempt? So I've got unconscious bias or biases, sorry, they're conscious definitely from the medical system whilst I was in defense. So being told that I'd never walk more than 500 meters again in my life, and I've got to get used to this has made me very skeptical of the medical profession. So any type of preemptive testing, I I I back out of as much as possible, and I sort of call it playing the referee. What have I got in front of me? Like if I've got something wrong and I need to get a test, I'm going to go and do that, right? But preemptive testing for preemptive testing, it's it's not my bag, but um, what are my deficits? So, if you know you do a SWOT analysis on my training or stuff like that, what is the evidence there that I'm doing well? Um, is sort of how I do it. But I chose not to do the resilient shield. Like, I don't I'm pretty sure I did it years and years ago, maybe. Um, but yeah, I haven't done it again recently. Sorry, say that again.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

We would have strongly encouraged you to do it when I did it.

SPEAKER_03 28:42

Yeah, I'm pretty sure you did because we're locked in the house together at the time, and I was making bow and arrow targets with cardboard and wrapped up tightly wrapped up blankets, and yeah, you're trying to get me to do something bit more proactive, productive soon.

SPEAKER_00 29:04

Yeah, all right. Uh so great book. Um, it's a 10-hour and 45-minute listen on Audible. So um probably probably worth the time, but what's your number one takeaway? So when you think about the the little nugget that you've actually put into practice, what has it been?

SPEAKER_03 29:27

Well, for me, there's one on on my professional side, which is safe storytelling. Storytelling with a purpose. It's been a big passion of mine working in the veteran space and listening to veterans just trauma dump on crowds. Um, but when I'm working with people as to become instructors, to become mental health professionals, um, you know, safe storytelling in workplaces for mental health first aiders and resilience first aiders, it's about tell your story with a purpose. So for me, it's about what they did, how they did it. Um some of the other stuff, you know, like there's so much there. Um the the other thing there for me is recovery. Like we see it in the veteran community all the time that there's so much negative crap out there about recovery. Recovery is not meant to be easy, and everyone's expecting it to be handed on a platter. No, we've got to get out there and earn it again, and that's how we get recovery, not just from physical injuries but mental health injuries, but psychologically, we become stronger when we put effort into recovery, and therefore our community becomes you know, the sh stories we share, our community becomes uh stronger as well. So the recovery and you know that transition piece for me, that's the bits that I use the most.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Uh I've got two specific takeaways. Um, one is just a consolidation of something that I already think is incredibly important, which is about self-reflection. And they use the after activity review as a framework for that. So, what happened? What went wrong? And when I think about a big part of being adaptable with our resilience, it's about having a process of reflection. So that's something that is a huge part of my not from the book itself, but that really resonated. Um, from a personal perspective, I had a really tiny little shift about something. So one of the anecdotes talks about a CrossFitter who refuses to sit on the ground, bend over, like have any of the behaviors that show defeat. And that after a big, like high-rocked workout, like he's up straight and tall, chin up, you know, and he's just looking triumphant. And there's just something really small about that that I took into my training about I don't ever want to show defeat from a workout. Like no one is looking at this stuff, but there was something to the just that will to win around um like the psychological battle, you know. And one of the things the book does talk about, it touches on very briefly Amy Cuddy and high power posing and how our body language actually communicates to our brain and we change our neurotransmitter activity if we stand in a high power pose, like the Superman pose. Um, so that's uh such a tiny little takeaway, but never showing defeat after a workout by appearing like I'm gassed. Like I have something left in the tank.

SPEAKER_01 32:42

Yeah, I love that.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

I really like that. Oh dear. All right. So uh sounds like we're both giving it thumbs up, yeah, for sure. Yeah, it's got a niche audience potentially, but I think there's something for everyone in a book like that.

SPEAKER_03 33:00

Yeah, and today's been a lot about the military context and how we use it in the military context, but I do believe like the civilian population would get amazing things out of it. Um, unfortunately, like we've we've both got that military background that that brings our story out today. Um, so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:19

So if there's any comments, anything that you loved about the resilience shield, our listeners, please feel free to post down our socials, send us an email, let us know what you think about the book. Uh now, the next podcast that we're going to record is going to be on resilience first aid, which we've made mention to a couple of times. Tommy spoke about the PR6 and the six domains of resilience today, which both come from resilience first aid. So um, disclosure, we do sell that as a course. Um, but I think it's important to talk about what that product is and how individuals and workplaces can use it, you know, how it fits in when we think about things like psychosocial hazards and mental health in the workplace. So look forward to that one as our next episode.

SPEAKER_01 34:11

Awesome. Thanks a lot.