Financial freedom for women navigating uncertainty with Genene Wilson

Financial uncertainty can add another layer of fear and vulnerability when a relationship is fragile, ending, or already over. You may be worried about where you will live, how you will support yourself, what assets you have—or whether important financial information has been hidden from you.

In this episode, Jane speaks with Genene Wilson about moving from financial vulnerability and confusion towards greater clarity, confidence and empowerment.

Genene draws on her experience as a former accountant and licensed financial planner, as well as her current work as a business and financial coach, entrepreneur and author. Together, Jane and Genene explore why many women feel disconnected from the structure of their family finances, and why gaining financial knowledge matters even when you have trusted your partner to take care of that area.

They discuss:

• Why knowing your current financial position is an essential first step
• How fear, shame and past criticism can lead to financial avoidance
• The importance of gathering documents, accessing accounts and noticing financial red flags
• Why women sometimes give away too much just to bring a painful separation to an end
• How to prepare for mediation or financial negotiations
• The value of understanding your best-case, worst-case and middle-ground outcomes
• Who you may need on your professional support team
• How to choose advisers who are qualified, values-aligned and able to communicate clearly
• Why financial empowerment is about dignity, choice and long-term security—not simply dollars and cents

Genene also shares stories of women who rebuilt their financial confidence after divorce, loss and even homelessness. Her central encouragement is simple: there is no need to solve everything at once. Focus on the next step you can take today.

Please note that the information in this episode is general education and does not constitute personal financial, accounting or legal advice. Seek appropriately licensed professional advice for your individual circumstances.

Resources

Genene Wilson
Website: genenewilson.com

Live Well: Your Guide to Navigating Divorce by Genene Wilson

Quiet Wisdom
Website: quietwisdom.com.au

If this episode encouraged you, please rate, review and share the podcast so that other women can find this support too.

Connect with Jane at Quiet Wisdom

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello friend, you're listening to Confident Again, your space to reclaim confidence and hope after the experience of intimate betrayal. I'm Jane, and with my guest Janine, we'll be talking about money. Financial empowerment and freedom for women create space for more choices, yet, most women experience financial vulnerability and constriction when it comes to moving forward when the relationship future is fragile and uncertain, or even at an end. If you have questions on how to become more financially secure as a woman, this episode is for you. My guest, Janine Wilson, is an accountant, financial planner, business and financial coach, entrepreneur, and founder of Finesse Advisors and creator of The Prosperity Queen. She describes herself as a wealth architect and is the author of Live Well, Your Guide to Navigating Divorce. Thank you so much for being here, Janine. It's a real privileged to have you with us.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Thanks so much, Jane. I just want to make one little correction. I haven't forgotten all those things I talked about during my career as an accountant and financial planner, but I'm no longer licensed. So I now uh work in a different space, sharing what I know, but not from a licensed perspective.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yes, and I really value that you have that background. So that brings so much more authority to what we're going to talk about today because you really get money finances.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

So, Jean, you and I met at a workshop a little while ago. And as you do at a workshop, I turned to you and I'm like, what do you do? And she said, Well, I'm publishing a book for women who are navigating divorce. And I'm like, I absolutely need to have you on my podcast, especially when I realized that this was a particularly about the money issue around navigating divorce. And so I'm really looking forward to our conversation today about this. Thanks, Jane.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

And it was lovely to meet you at that workshop. And uh, I haven't forgotten the things we spoke about, but I find that so many women, it's such a common problem that so many women don't really know where they stand. They're a little bit in the dark when it comes to their money. And I, when I look at that, I think, well, is that a very traditional, you know, gender-based role? I don't know what the answer is. But you know, my my passion and my mission is to change that.

SPEAKER_01 2:33

I love that. Yes. What why are you particularly passionate about this topic?

SPEAKER_00 2:39

It's it's really interesting because I've been married for 43 years. I've never been divorced. However, I have sat across the desks from so many women over the years in my career and even in my personal life with friends and family that have experienced, you know, the intricacies of separating and divorcing and don't know what the steps are. You know, in my family, uh it, you know, when my sister first divorced, she had no experience of that. We didn't really know anyone who was divorced. Um, and so it's really interesting when people find themselves in that position and that they can often just, you know, stick their head in the sand. It's a traumatic time for many, many people and go into yourself and not get the help you need when you need it. But from where I sit, finding the right people to work with, getting the understanding you need and getting on the front foot with it can really make a difference at the back end if it does come to a financial settlement, for example. Because part of the role I see is actually being ready, knowing where you stand financially, and if you don't discovering that, and then setting yourself up so you know what you want in your future, what your f what that's going to cost to live that future, and then take that to the negotiation table in the financial settlement so you know what what you can negotiate and what you can't. And Jane, to give you an example, you know, a couple of years ago, one of my clients came to me and we worked through this together, and we worked really hard on it, gathering up all of the information, and there'd been a lot of um, you know, expenditures that weren't approved and things that were a bit untoward, you know, um, that had been misinterpreted. And uh when it came down to it, we worked out the you know, the best case, the worst case, and the middle ground in to go into the negotiations with. Um and her partner came back and it was below our worst expectations. And so, you know, I took the call from her during these mediation meetings, and I said, Look, he's he's being unreasonable. Um and in this case, I think what you need to do is the next step is the sort of person who needs a little bit of an awakening, and your best approach may well be to talk about what the next steps will cost if you cannot agree on this day. I mean, it was already costing them 12 or 15 grand for the day for the mediation, but the next step would have cost them 80 or 100 grand. And I said, I think he'll respond best to that. So you've got your numbers, we've worked them out. You know, you know that you can stand on those and justify those if you needed to or were called to justify them. However, I think he needs an awakening and you need to go in and and really lay it on the table that what the next step will cost. If we leave you today without an agreement, this is what it's going to cost. Um, and it actually worked.

SPEAKER_01 6:10

And what I love about that is you're giving women confidence that when they know the facts, and it sort of puts boundaries around how to show up in those kinds of negotiations.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

And they don't fold because they are confident and sincere. Um the the they went to the table to negotiate, but to find that the the partner wasn't ready for that was a bit of a bit was a was shocking. And and I think she sort of had a bit of a wobble for a minute, if I could put it that way, and needed that reinforcement from another, you know, professional party to really say, now hang on a minute, we you know, our numbers are solid. This is the approach.

SPEAKER_01 6:57

Yeah, that is that's so helpful. And you know, just from my experience in working with women who are in difficult relationships, there's dynamics present that have been present often for some time or have been discovered that um create a sense of wobble for the person navigating that. And so it's amazing that she not only had facts in her hand, but she has a professional person in her corner who can support her to know what she's talking about when she goes to that meeting.

SPEAKER_00 7:29

I think she found her strength, and and I and I think that's what I like about it. Um, there's no winners when you go to war, in my opinion. So don't go to war, but go in there with a show of strength.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

Yeah. What are um some of the financial challenges, particularly associated with separating and divorcing?

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Look, there are many, but some that immediately come to mind are really around uh not knowing your financial situation, um, having any confidence stripped away from you in terms of, I guess, ego or identity around money. And um, that then leads on to you know not being able to have a conversation about money potentially. Um, it it deters you, you have avoidance behaviors around money, you don't want to look at your bank account, you're scared and really fearful. And I think that it really is is it a generational issue that women have been encouraged to be involved in the spending of money, but really not involved in the structure of money. So there's a lot of darkness around um money, how it flows, um, knowing about things like investing, knowing how to handle money. And I can give you a really strong example. A client of mine many years ago, uh now probably 10 years ago, she didn't understand her position and she was in a a very good position. There was a lot of wealth and money there. However, her relationship with money was limited to her partner giving her a couple of hundred dollars a week to run the household. So all of the bills were paid, everything was paid for. She didn't never had to even you know, I I say this and I say it almost in jest, but I mean it quite seriously. She never never had to worry her pretty little head about money. All she had to think about was I've got $200 or I've got $400 this week to put food on the table and prepare the meals, look after the household, a very traditional housewife type of situation. And she was a mature woman. And um what we discovered was her her parents passed away and left quite a substantial inheritance, which she knew little about. And her husband passed away and left her with little understanding of their financial position. And as it turned out, she was extremely well off, but had no idea how to deal with any of the money, no idea how to pay a bill. All of that was taken care of, and it really left her not just bereft for the loss of the people and grieving the loss of the those relationships, but all at sea in terms of you know, what do I do? What is what do I need to do? How, you know, even how do I put food on the table this week? Because the $200 isn't sitting on the kitchen table.

SPEAKER_01 10:57

Yeah, 100%, right? And I want to also want to speak to this just for the people who are listening who are in relationships that are difficult, is that we don't get into relationships with the view that it's not going to last and that we're not going to have each other's back and that we can't rely on each other. So it makes sense that some women, in the way that the their family or their relationship is set up financially, is that um the man is meant to have her back regarding all the finances. Sometimes that's and I know that's a traditional perspective, but it also makes sense in context of in the context of trust. We trust that person to care for us. And what you're saying is that um, you know, while she didn't have any money worries because money was provided for her and the bills were paid, she also didn't have financial empowerment because she didn't understand how it all worked. And so when there was a shift in the system, she was sitting in a space where she was all at sea around what her responsibilities and obligations and even her resources are.

SPEAKER_00 12:08

She had no idea. She didn't know if she had a dollar or twenty million dollars. Wow. Yeah. And even how to take that money forward. Uh, in that particular uh case, there was a lot of assets there that were unique assets, and there was no understanding of how to have those assets managed going forward, how to divest those assets, how to, you know, liquidate them, so to speak. And so this confusion went on for quite a long time, just feeling all at sea. And so coming in as a professional in those situations and being able to guide and direct and encourage and educate is just crucial. It's absolutely crucial. Um, because she came through that more quickly than if she'd have tried to do it alone.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

And I think women often try to do things alone or get the wrong help because there's always a willing, you know, a willing friend or family member who wants to support you, but is it the right sort of support that you actually need at the right time?

SPEAKER_01 13:28

Yeah, that's a good question. And even when some of the words you're saying, you know, they come from finance world. Liquidating assets, you know, investing, divesting, like a person who's not from finance world goes, oh, speaking a foreign language. That's how that's how I feel, because I'm not from finance world, right? Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

And so finding the right person is really important as well, because you need to you need to have similar values. Uh, you for example, if you're going to move in into divorce, you want to know that the person that you've got on your team to take you through that has similar values to you. Otherwise, it's going to make it extremely difficult at a very sensitive time to work with that person and get the outcome that you want. Um, and you know, uh there's so many other things around money, Jane. I'm just sort of going, well, what are the biggest problems? Um, you know, so many women have had unpaid work. And, you know, I can give you example after example where women have potentially worked in tradie businesses, you know, the the the person out there on the tools, the tradie, um, is earning the money, but that business might be a sole trader. And whilst the partner has been doing the bookwork and the back office and all of that sort of thing, it's not led to having a pay packet of her own in her hand. And so there's those sorts of things, um, career pauses that interrupt women's ability to move in and out. And so my view has always come from when you're coming from a low base of resources, whatever that is, whether that's money, whether that's your understanding or education around money, your literacy around money, if you're coming from a lower base, you need a lot more resources just to reach parity, let alone move beyond that into more growth. So if you think that you're in a minor situation and you're going to reach zero, but then you're going to go above that.

SPEAKER_01 15:36

Yes. Okay. Yes. So, and that's interesting because in my mind, I'm just picturing this trajectory that we're trying to create here of getting to a place where I'm, like you said, on a level playing field or reaching zero. And then I want to grow from there. So that that's actually really helpful to think about that. A couple of interesting things I just want to pick up again around um the hit to the confidence around identity with and it's with in the case of like betrayal to the the people who listen to this podcast, uh, that hit is far reaching and multi-dimensional. But you talked about it, particularly in relation to money and how uh being in relation in a relationship gives you a certain kind of financial identity, and that when that relationship gets wobbly, that brings that identity into question. That could include things like the living situation and where the kids go to school, and um just the kind of things I do on my day-to-day um could be impacted by that. So I just want to validate for my listeners that that's also part of the process of getting your head around what's actually happening here and navigating grief and loss.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

So, Jane, can I just pick up on something there? Many people know that there's a part of your brain called the RAS that looks for things you want, but equally there's a part of your brain that looks for looks and counts the things that you don't want, like disappointments. And it creates it's called the habanula, and it creates this situation where it's counting all of those negative impacts, and it can lead you to avoiding things. I mentioned avoiding looking at your bank account, avoiding learning more about money because you've been made to feel inadequate or stupid or you know, whatever word you know, we're talking here with people who have been through difficult situations. Often language is really, you know, nasty and dirty, and you know, you've been made to feel somehow inadequate about money. So your brain is actually counting that, if you like, you know, click, click, click. And that leads to these avoidance behaviors. And it it counts it because your your brain now starts to realize that there's this pattern, this expectation of it being negative. And so if you've been criticized or shut down or embarrassed or made to feel not good enough about something, particularly let's talk about money, you know, maybe you're an overspender and it gets just gets worse. Or maybe you're really frugal and you're cutting the top of the toothpaste chip, whatever that is, however, you've been made to feel about money, your brain's actually counting those things up. And that pattern um can accelerate, particularly when you're going through very difficult times. Because if you're a woman who's left a relationship and you don't know where you stand financially, that's a very difficult time. And what are you thinking about? You're focusing in on the money and you're focusing about whether the next dollar's coming from. How am I going to put a roof over the kids' uh, you know, kids' heads, how am I going to keep the lights on? How am I going to do this, that, and the other? And a lot of it comes back to money. And so your brain, you know, it's dragging you down, if you like, it's dragging you underwater because you're counting all of those things. And it can be a really difficult pattern to escape. And it's not always about the discipline of it. Sometimes this is just about your brain protecting you from harm.

SPEAKER_01 19:30

And I love that because you're actually normalizing what happens when we're under duress. And so I'm curious about what are some ways that we can most helpfully respond to that reality.

SPEAKER_00 19:45

Well, I'm not sure that I'm going to perfectly answer your question, but what I would say is that when you have the right team of professionals around you, particularly where you're going through difficult times, having those professionals there can help to guide you back, can help you turn your thinking around a little bit and start to focus and look at more the positive sides of it. And that is a result, really. I talked earlier about being ready to go into negotiations. Just going through the process of that becoming ready can help turn that around because you're starting to focus on the future. What is it that I actually need? What is it that I can negotiate? What is it? So you're starting to look for the future. So your brain is kind of flipping that switch from looking for the bad stuff and protecting you to looking for the good stuff and helping you find it.

SPEAKER_01 20:42

I love that. It's almost like you tend to go in the direction of where you're looking. So if I'm looking at where I might be headed, not in a dreamland fantasy way, but just in what is the hard reality of my future, then and what do I want that to look like, then I'm going to be able to sort of harness my brain's energy to direct me in that way with good support. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah. And it is about having a team. I mean, people come to me, and I've wrote about it in the Live Well book. You know, who do you need on your team? Most people think, look, I've got a limited budget or I've got budget, I'm I, you know, got some money available. Sorry, I'm using financy words again. I've got my I've got money available. Um, and I've I need to have a lawyer. Okay. But they don't necessarily think about the fact that they might also need a financial advisor, a financial planner to see what the future could look like in terms of best worst case scenario. You know, what's the middle ground? They might also need an accountant. You know, they might find that they need an accountant because there's a business associated there, or, you know, they might not have had their tax returns done, or something like that. That or they might need to borrow a small amount of money depending on them circumstances to get them to the next thing. And so, you know, having that team of people around and knowing who to talk to and at what the right time is, and you know, whether there's some free resources available, or you can do your own research, or if you need to be paying for resources, or if there's some, you know, government-funded resources you might be able to use. So finding those resources and getting the right help at the right time that's within the you know, within what you can personally fund from a money perspective can really help you. And I think if you avoid doing that, let's use the same language, avoid it, then you're going to be a lot further behind because uh look, I've had clients um over the over time where one one member of the partnership, as in the the relationship, possibly already knows beforehand that they're leaving, or they might have already mentally or physically left the relationship. And if the other person's unaware, well, the first person's got a long way ahead of the game, right? They could already have sold resources, sold assets, they could have already, you know, got rid of investments, um, you know, hidden money away, transferred money to other people, done all sorts of things, you know, sold the business for not enough money, whatever it is, um, and the other person is unprepared or unaware of that. And so, you know, having an awareness is important, and having the right people on your team is important.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

What kind of things would I be asking or looking for when I'm looking for professionals to be on my team?

SPEAKER_00 23:54

That's a really good question, Jane. Thank you. So I would want to make sure that I know what I value most. So, what are my values? Are my values family or money or um wealth or independence? You know, what are my personal values? And if I'm in business, what are my business values? And then I would be looking for people who align with that. Um, so for example, I mentioned a lawyer. You know, lawyers can become quite litigious or aggressive, but if I'm not somebody who wants to um engage in that sort of behavior, then why would I get someone who is, you know, litigious or aggressive? I wouldn't want to work with them personally, and I really wouldn't want them representing me because I don't know that I believe that that's necessary. Like I said before, I don't, you know, no one wins in a war. So why go to? So I'd be looking for somebody that was more aligned with my values that I want, you know, I want what's best for, you know, even though this relationship is ending, I want what's best for my family as a unit in the long run, even though that might now be in two separate households. So I would be looking for people that understand where I'm coming from and can work with me on that basis. And I'll give you an example. When I was a licensed financial advisor, I spoke very, very much so to women and women's financial independence and build building up the tools and resources for women so that they could achieve financial independence. And in doing so, that didn't mean I worked exclusively with women. In fact, I worked with quite a few men who were going through separation and divorce as well. And what that taught me was that there was possibly two reasons for that. That they our values were aligned, or that they wanted to be seen to be the good person in the relationship, in the end of the relationship, and ease that through when it went through the process, through the courts or through mediation or whatever it was. They wanted to be seen as the good person in the partnership. Um, and so they've they've felt there was value in that. I've never quite understood the actual answer to that, but it occurs to me that, you know, having been someone who only spoke to women still had men as clients. In fact, I think over my years of as a financial advisor, I had more men as clients than I did at women, which is quite interesting, isn't it? It is. Yeah. Um so there must be something there. I'm not sure I understand what it is, but um I think the point I'm trying to make is it's really important to have someone who's aligned with your values to to do your homework, to go out there, make sure the people you're talking to are properly licensed, they're properly insured, they're they're you know properly skilled in the area of expertise that you're engaging with them for. You don't get a plumber in to fix your cabinet in your kitchen. Right, right. You don't you don't get the electrician down to fix your car. So great. Get get the right person for the right job that you need. So making sure that they're properly licensed, properly expert in the area you need, um, that they're affordable within the money that you have available, and that they're going to be available to do the job you need them to do. And that you can work with them. You know, as a woman, I don't want to be going to a lawyer who I'm scared of. If I've come out of a relationship that had some trauma associated with, or my partner was domineering and controlling, I don't want to go and work with someone who, you know, a lawyer or a financial advisor or an accountant who makes me feel inadequate. I want to go and work with someone who I feel like I'm happy to sit in, you know, sit across the desk from, that I understand what they're saying, that they can speak to me at my level, that has my values in mind and understands, seeks to potentially listens more than they talk. So that they understand what it is, who I am, what it is that I want, my identity, and you know, what my expectations for the future are and how they can meet that need.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Yeah, that's really helpful, um, Janine. How would you actually get that information?

SPEAKER_00 28:42

Well, most people ask for referrals of family members or friends or somebody who's been through it before. But I always suggest if you don't have that, or even if you do have that, you still want to have a conversation with someone before you're signing up to work with them. So you want to have even a brief meeting to understand more about it. You want to go and have a look at these days information's everywhere, isn't it? You know, go and have a look at their Google review or put it into Chat GPT or Claude or whoever and ask, you know, to here's the three people I'm thinking about this for this particular activity. You know, go and do some research in the market and tell me about these people and where their expertise is and you know what people say about them. You know, there's so much information in the market. Be resourceful and find it and you know, have a conversation, make sure that you're comfortable. I think it always come back to am I comfortable with this? Because if it doesn't make me feel comfortable, I don't want to, I don't want to buy into it. Because remember that and look, I'm gonna say something else which might be a bit difficult to hear, but some people are very, very skilled in the professions of making um people feel like they're they're understood, that they're you know, this know, like, and trust is developed very quickly. So you need to often look behind that. And you know, sometimes you might meet with someone and think, oh yeah, that that's great. But what about the second time you meet them? What about the third time you meet them?

SPEAKER_01 30:23

Yeah. Yeah, and I think as a betrayal trauma specialist, one of the things that's coming up for me is you can trust your gut around the vibe that you get from a helping professional. And it's okay if it doesn't work for you. There's other people out there. And I want to validate also that sometimes we can be in a bit of a panic. And it's good to have if if in addition to getting helping professionals, have friends in your corner or family members in your corner that you can just debrief what it was like for you and sort of get some clarity around where your head and your heart and your gut is at after meeting with a professional like that, so that you have help processing the information and the and the relationship. Because it is a relationship too, isn't it, Janine?

SPEAKER_00 31:09

Yeah, absolutely. And that's a you know, a great plan of attack. Sometimes you might need that support when you're going along. Certainly, I've had people, family members or close friends, come into meetings with prospective clients or with clients to support them going through it. In fact, I had a young woman come in with both of her parents every meeting. Both of her parents came because that's what she needed to feel genuinely supported and just have that you know, second, third set of eyes and ears to debrief and download, as you suggest, Jane, so that you're very comfortable making that decision. And you know, it's about deciding, giving yourself permission and being ready for that next step. And if you don't know like and trust and not trusting your gut as well, if you're not ready for that next step, then ask yourself why and keep asking questions until you do feel that way, until you do have that certainty, yeah, particularly where you're vulnerable.

SPEAKER_01 32:14

Yeah, I love that. So can you um outline some areas for us where financial we like if someone's listening to this and they're like, Man, I feel in a complete fog around finances, I feel disempowered or vulnerable. Um, what are some key areas where they might get a couple of quick wins to gain some traction?

SPEAKER_00 32:36

I always come back to knowing where you are right now financially. So doing some doing some homework, doing some digging, being an archaeologist if you need to to find out precisely where you you stand financially. Hopefully that's a quick win, but sometimes it may not be. And sometimes you do just need to keep digging until you find the truth behind the truth. Take a step back and take pause and really think into are there any things that I have signed, or were there any red flags that I should now be considering? Um things like you know, have I signed personal guarantees for loans? Did I sign documents that I didn't really read or didn't really know what they were about? I just got told to sign. Are there any of those things? What could they be in relation to? How will I find out what they are? Um bank accounts. Um, if you have joint bank accounts, things like talking to the bank, letting them know your situation, potentially freezing things with the bank so that you know that assets cannot be stripped away. And by assets, I mean like money in the bank, I mean share portfolio, maybe some property investments, uh, maybe a car. Um you know, you might have thought you had cash in the bank, but suddenly the cash isn't there. Where did it go? Was was did somebody buy a car with it? Did they buy a house with it? Or did they just transfer it to somebody in another country that I now can't get that back? You know, what what are we talking here? Really look at what's going on with the money and think into it. You know, were there any red flags? One of my clients' husband, they were building a home, money was flying out the door, as it does when you're building a home. And uh the partner took oh, I look 10,000, 15,000, a substantial amount of money out of the bank one lunchtime, and then didn't really turn up from home at the right time, and you know what's going on, and they put that money through the poker machine at lunchtime. They were supposed to pay one of the trades, didn't pay the trades, money went through the poker machine. And so start to think are there any red flags about other relationships? Are there any red flags about monies that's sort of gone missing or got a bit, you know, grey where it went? You know, are they red flags? And what are they? Because often that can be where you need to start looking first.

SPEAKER_01 35:20

That's sobering, actually, to think about that, Janine, and what that means in terms of disempowerment and even financial abuse. And I just want to say to anybody who's listening, um, if talking about this is triggering for you, it's okay to acknowledge that you're triggered by it and to do whatever you need to feel more calm and regulated and reach out for support. So I want to encourage you to do that. Um, because for the audience that I talk to, Janine, often those are part of the elements that are at play. Not always, but for some, sometimes it's the financial piece that opens the door to Pandora's box. And so it's um it's a huge thing. So make sure that if you're listening to this, that you have really good support around you, people who will be there for you and have your back that that care about you. Um because that can be a tough place to be and and very upsetting.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Good point, Jane. And I think some of the things that come into my mind as well are things like uh, you know, if you if you're separating households, you know, it's it's more expensive to run two households than it is to run one a lot a lot of the time. So that can put a strain on the finances just by having to separate two households. You might have, you know, a rent and a mortgage, um, you know, food in both fridges, you know, two lots of electricity bills and all of those things can really put some financial pressure on on households and things like you know, negotiating where the you know children are going to be and all of those sorts of things, you know, uh uh separating or or getting to that point where you're going to uh divorce is is probably the easy part. It's all the things around that. You know, every step along the way can feel difficult for many people.

SPEAKER_01 37:23

Yeah, there's emotional and logistic challenges, plus the financial, legal, domestic, you know, there's so many things that are happening there. So again, I think we're back to make sure you have good support around you, professional support and friend and family support.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

Yeah. And people can often be um misunderstand just how complex their situation is because they just don't know. And and there can be so many entanglements out there, really. Um these sorts of things don't necessarily end neatly.

SPEAKER_01 37:59

Yeah, that's the understatement of the year. And I want to remind the people who are listening and just come back to what you said about get clarity about what your future is going to look like and how you want to land. It's unlikely to be exactly the way you want it. But I think there's a place in coming to grips with, like what you said, Janine, know what your position is so that you have real data to go to the negotiating table so that you can um be prepared to move towards the preferred future out of the options that you have, where would you prefer to land? And I think there's something about that that's very grounding. Um yeah, and we need again just need good support around us because that's also a process of grief.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

Yeah. And one of the things I wanted to raise, Jane, was that, and and this has been my experience with some family members, not just clients, that there's so often guilt and shame associated with separating and divorcing. And sometimes people reach the point where they just they've had enough and they just want out. Now, I know this from family members that they just wanted out. They couldn't take it anymore, and they ended up giving too much away. And in fact, the woman in the household had been the breadwinner. And she just wanted the relationship, the person I'm thinking of wanted the relationship to end and ended up giving too much away. And the ex-partner is now sitting in a fully paid for home, enjoying retirement at the local bowling club and playing the poker machines all day. And um, she's you know, in a high-powered job working her backside off, if I can say that. Um has a mortgage and a substantial mortgage. And so the cost to her in that relationship was that she's now not financially secure as she would like for the amount of work and effort that she put in throughout that relationship. And so I urge people to think about it quite clearly about what are the consequences of those decisions that you're making. Are those decisions fully informed? And what's the long-term impact? And I urge people to think about not giving too much away because look, the average understanding is that it's going to take people seven to ten years to recover financially. But my experience is that it can actually take a lot longer. And in Australia, we're seeing homelessness amongst women being the highest group emerging. You know, women over 55 becoming homeless because they've left a relationship is is growing.

SPEAKER_01 41:05

And that's a that's that's an awful grievous thing. And I just want to also come back to validating that I get it, that when a person is emotionally, psychologically exhausted in a relationship, that they may just go, just take what you want and go because they don't have the power and the will or the energy to fight and to ask the question that you're asking. So, again, coming back to our listeners, validating that experience, but also this is why we need people like Janine in our corner and slowing down the process enough so that we can access what we need to access to make the decisions that we really want to make when um we're not in fight, flight, freeze, and fawn. So it's um there's a delicate balance there, Janine. And that's I think when I hear you say that, I'm like, man, having somebody like you who's not emotionally invested, you're invested in the financial well-being of your client. And so therefore, your voice can be trusted in that when you're just looking at that slice of the pie. So just really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 42:18

And I think, Jane, it always comes back to visibility to me. Oftentimes we can't see, you can't see, you can't see what's outside the jar from inside the jar. Right. And so sometimes you don't have that visibility, and it takes another set of eyes to really see that picture and give you a you know, give you the full picture, and that decision can lead to empowerment.

SPEAKER_01 42:44

Yes. Yeah, that's really helpful. And I think, you know, as a as a person who um sits with women every day who are financially disempowered, I I recognize that part of the the choices that they have to make around spending, because if you're financially disempowered, it means you don't have a lot of money resources. So then thinking about, oh well, I've got to pay for my therapy and I've got to pay for my kids' therapy, and I've got to pay for a lawyer, and I've got to pay for the mediator, and you know, and I've got to pay for a financial advisor and or planner as well. Like that seems like a lot. Um, do you have any comments around why that is imp why it's important to invest in having somebody in your corner financially that's a professional?

SPEAKER_00 43:38

And I've had that experience where I've spoken to women and they just go, look, you know, I I've got limited resources and I'm just going to have to go with a lawyer because that's all I can afford. And I understand that situation intimately. But that's why I say, you know, you don't know what you don't know. So looking for the right resources, and sometimes those resources Resources might be pro bono. You might find an advisor who's willing to take you on on a pro bono basis. And I'll give you an example of that. I worked with a woman a few years ago who had left the relationship, had to leave the children behind, found herself homeless, eventually clawed her way back a little bit, if I can put it that way, got into a boarding house, got from the boarding house into a little bit more of a secure environment in a very small, modest flat, and had by that stage found some modest work. And we just kept the dialogue going over that time. And eventually she found herself in a position where she could actually afford my services and came back to me after about a year. And we went through the process together. And you know, all the time she was very skeptical that she would never get what she wanted, but ultimately she got what she wanted. She was awarded what she wanted. And then, to her surprise, and possibly even mine, they paid. And it was a long process in that particular case. But when that money came in, as it turned out, she, her own money identity wasn't where it needed to be. And um, even though she'd come forward in leaps and bounds, she wasn't ready to now go and invest. And, you know, the money was obviously for her to buy it, buy a home or, you know, do something with that money that was going to give her long-term security, which is what she wanted and we'd agreed on, but she wasn't ready. So then we then worked on her literacy around money and investing so that we could get her to a place where she knew enough to make a good decision about what she wanted to do with that money. Because it's expensive to if you're buying a home and you make a mistake, that's an expensive mistake, right? Yeah. Because there's legal fees, there's stamp duties, there's all of those costs, you know, if there's a mortgage, etc. So that's an expensive mistake. So, you know, getting things, getting her money identity to where it needed to be so that she could actually then make the decision. And she decided not to buy at home at that point. And we invested otherwise in a quite a secure vehicle, um, not a car, uh, an investment vehicle. Um, bit more, bit more financy talk. Um and um and and she was very happy with that. She said, Look, I I'm not sure that I can get to that place in the next five to ten years. So let's look at something I can invest in for five to ten years. That money will have a certain level of um risk associated, but let's keep the risk low, let's get the money set aside, and when I'm ready, I know the money's there and I can then buy the home that I want. Um, you know, I just need to get myself straight before I do that.

SPEAKER_01 46:58

That story almost makes me cry because I just think here's a woman who was homeless, who, and you use the word clawed her way back. And I there's there's a reality in that that it's painful to hear, but it also speaks to the beauty of the empowerment that she had when she became financially literate enough to make her own decision about how she wanted to use that money, and that just makes me feel like the dignity in that, the confidence that's just grown in that by having the support of somebody like you. Um that just is a beautiful story. Thank you, Janine.

SPEAKER_00 47:41

And I think that that's where I see the value, seeing them realize what they're capable of, and you know, finding that money identity. And, you know, she didn't rush at a decision. She could have easily just gone out the next day and bought a property. But was it the right choice for her? Well, as it turned out, no, it wasn't. So we did something else, and just that that level of being capable of making those decisions just felt amazing at the time because I feel like that was what I signed up for. Life-changing advice. And there's a lot of value in that, and it's not necessarily just in dollars and cents, that's kind of generational change. Because what I would love to and encourage all of my clients to do was to have conversations around money at the kitchen table. That's where our children learn, that's where we learn, that's where we that that's a legacy worth creating, in my view. And that's not a legacy about money, that's a legacy that you can champion, is having children and young people and yourself be financially literate and be capable of making really good, solid financial choices.

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Thank you for painting that vision for us. That's amazing. Um, if there's something that you would like my listeners to particularly remember from our conversation, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 49:10

If I had to say one thing, it is actually when you're in a difficult situation, whether that's emotional support that you're needing or financial support or whatever type of support you need, there's no need for panic. And focusing on the next step is probably the most important thing you can do. What is that one step I can take today?

SPEAKER_01 49:41

I love that. That's so empowering. So, are there any particular services, supports maybe that you'd like us to know about?

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Well, that's interesting. Um if people want a relatively low-cost um, you know, first step, they could have a look at my book. People could reach out to me uh to get a copy if if they need that support, uh, or look it up on Amazon, check out my website, G-E-N-E-N-E Wilson W-A-L-S-O-N.com, and you could source the book there. So that's a relatively low-cost thing to do, and it outlines the things we've talked about and gives some examples, gives you some food for thought on things. Um, there's some you know quite good little infographics that people can refer to. Uh, they could talk to me directly, my numbers on the website, and I can help guide them to really good professionals that can help them if they do need some accounting, financial advice, legal advice. Um, people that I've worked with in the past, more than happy to help listeners if they're in that situation, Jane, uh, find the right next step for them.

SPEAKER_01 50:58

Thank you, Janine. That's so generous of you. And I'll have those links in the show notes for our listeners. So thank you for this conversation, Jean. We covered a lot of gold and we did really um really solid uh points around how do we grow from being financial financially vulnerable and in the dark to financially empowered and educated. And I just really appreciate your perspective on that and what you've brought to our listeners today. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Thanks, Jane. It's been a real pleasure chatting with you. And uh I hope I hope that uh everyone listening really does get some gold out of it and and feels uh able to take the next first step for them.

SPEAKER_01 51:43

Yeah, thank you. And thank you so much to everyone for listening to this episode on the podcast today. If you enjoyed the show, if you got some encouragement out of it, please rate, review, and share so that other people can find that encouragement too. Links will be in the show notes for resources that we've talked about. And feel free to reach out to me anytime at my website quietwisdom.com.au. Until next time, gently does it with your beautiful self. Thank you.