003 "Women In WoW Panel"

In this episode of Sparey Sessions, I sit down with three incredible women in the WoW community — Hula, Sam, and Aimee — for an honest conversation about what it’s like being a woman in today’s gaming spaces. 💙

Together we explore the complicated, funny, frustrating, and deeply meaningful realities of building identity and community online through gaming.

This conversation touches on:

- navigating gaming spaces as women
- community, belonging, and finding “your people”
- the pressure to prove yourself in online environments
- how gaming culture has changed over the years
- toxicity, resilience, and protecting your love for the game
- the unique connection women often build through shared experiences in gaming

✨ Disclaimer: This video was recorded during a live Twitch broadcast. Portions of chat engagement and community interaction have been lightly edited for pacing and clarity.

📌 Watch live & join the Sparey Squad on Twitch:
👉 twitch.tv/spareystreams

📍 Connect with our guests:
🎮 Hula:
Twitch & Twitter/X: @Hulahoopsy

🎮 Sam:
linktr.ee/scfplays

🎮 Aimee:
linktr.ee/aimeelawho

💙 Subscribe for more Sparey Sessions — I bring you real talk with creators, leaders, and folks who make the internet feel like home. Next week we’ll explore how connection shapes our stories, healing, and creative lives — hope to see you in the chat!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hi, welcome to Sperry Sessions with the Unofficial Wow Therapist. The conversation you're about to hear was recorded while streaming, so there may be some interruptions due to engagement with chat. Thanks for listening. Super, super excited for this sperry session. We have some beautiful ladies here. We've already been uh just warming up, chit-chatting and all that stuff. Um I first and foremost think that every single person that plays WoW is very just, you know, very cool, obviously. Um, but these guys especially. So I want to give you guys know who I am. I'm the unofficial WoW therapist. Um I've been around and all that stuff, and I love having conversations about mental health, about being human, about what it just means to be to people that share the planet. Um, and I think that helps us be a little bit better for ourselves and for everybody else. So I want to have each of them introduce themselves, um, tell them a little bit about them. Uh, pretty much like the the highlight reel of what got you into gaming, how long you've been gaming, what you do now, that kind of stuff. So um in my little square, I have Amy in the top corner. If you wouldn't mind going first, my dear.

SPEAKER_06 1:18

Um, hi everyone. For those who don't know, I'm Amy LaHou. Um I've been gaming since I was a child. So I got into WoW back in high school. Um, and primarily I stream a lot of um Raid and Myth uh Mythic Plus content, and I uh my favorite thing is to get new players into high-end content because it is nerve-wracking, and I love seeing new people coming into the sphere and kind of like beating that fear. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

Hello, thank you for joining us. Thank you, thank you. And I do love that like you've been breaking into I think since I've known you, each season has been a new benchmark for you. Like you just keep on improving, and I think it's the same for Sam and myself as well. I think everybody here has been like hitting new new limits, and it's just like the coolest thing to see. So the fact that you can bring other people along with you is awesome. Um Hula, you're next on my screen. Would you mind go in introducing yourself, telling us a little bit about your background and what you do now?

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Of course. Uh thank you for having me. I'm really excited to to chat with all of you lovely ladies today. Uh so I'm Hula. I am the general manager at Raider IO. And uh I I've been gaming all all actually since I was a child as well. Um, a little little further back than Amy. Um, but my uh I rem our first was not an Atari, but uh something similar to that. Um and then grew up with Nintendo, played a lot with my sister growing up, and I got into WoW when it first came out. I was in university and used it as a mental health break, actually. Uh I was writing a thesis and I needed just breaks, and oh, this it was in Best Buy one day, like, oh this game looks fun, and uh grabbed it and started playing, and that's kind of where my entire life took a different turn. Um and now I'm here. Um I you know went a different completely different career route than I uh originally thought, and then it pivoted, and now I'm working uh at Raider.io and I love it. It's fantastic. Um I've been playing the whole time. Um I play both retail and classic right now, actually. So I'm on the anniversary servers as well, just casual rating and in classic, and I I got back into keys this season, actually. We love it. So I might skip there on the uh your main is a havoc demon hunter, right? Correct! I was a holy paladin for like 20 years. Uh really known for that. I um I I actually competed in the MDI at one point, and it was a Pally and a Mistfever, and I moderated the Paladin Discord, and then at some point I was like, I need a new alt, and I played a Havoc Demon Hunter, and I'm like, This has been my whole life. Yes, I I found what I was meant to be doing. It's the it's the best class ever. We could have not demon panel. I'm kicking with yeah, exactly. But uh yeah, so that's why I'm I'm really excited to be here today and uh and and chat.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Yay, thank you, thank you. And then last but not least, Sam, if you wouldn't mind.

SPEAKER_00 4:20

Hello! Uh well, yeah, same thing with me. Got into gaming really young. My dad picks up World of Warcraft from Best Buy because he had seen like one of those commercials on TV and was like, oh, that looks cool. So we went and got it from Best Buy, never returned it. Uh and I've been playing it ever since. I was literally five years old when I started playing this game, and here I am at 27, still playing to this day. And like you had said, Sperry, like every day I log in, I feel like I'm getting better and better because I've found people that I want to see them be successful, but like they want to see me be successful as well. So we're just feeding off of that positive energy, and it's changed the outlook of this game for me entirely. I used to play solo or just with my dad, and now here I am making new friends literally daily, and just enjoying this game through such a different lens. And like I help a lot of new players, like my Discord, my guild, there's a ton of new players in here, and I think Midnight saw such an influx of new players that there really wasn't like they they needed somewhere to go, and I think all of us here, especially these four in this group right now, like we're trying to help them and guide them through this crazy world that is the world of Warcraft. So I'm so happy to be here today and talking about the game that I love so much and will never quit playing, even if it goes dead.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Also, if you guys didn't know, Sam started a guild called Only Floors, and I love that so much. Uh so it's floor POV only. That's great. Um, so yes, I I love it. And I think that like, I don't know, there's something that's so beautiful about the shared world and shared experiences that all of us like we are talking about. Yes, we have the super fun experiences of getting better and the immersive experiences of just getting into the world and meeting new friends, but also like tied to all of the real life memories, tied to the you know, the people or the timeline of our lives. Like, I feel like that's it's such a cool crossover that WoW has seen for so many people in being a multi-decade game. So it's just awesome. Um, thank you all so much for being here. Uh, really, I wanted to highlight the experience of multiple different obviously, we can't speak for all women, you know. Um, I would love to see just everybody put their voice out there and share their experience. Hopefully that you know conversations like this will encourage other people to share your story, share what um WOW has meant to you or gaming in general. Um, but I have a couple list of questions here. Um I don't want to dive in initially though. Uh I actually since Sam finished and she said, you know, she's making new new friends every minute. I think it's I share this experience with her. She also got her husband to play wow with her. Um, and I know that like Amy found her partner through this game. And I don't know your personal background, Hula, with you within your marriage, what that looks like. But yeah, I think it's We met on Warcraft.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

It's so wild. 2009.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 7:43

So the original, the original Wrath of the Lich King. Um, I don't know if you guys I don't know if you all played back then, but this is back when servers were kind of like an actual thing. Like your server was your home, there were forums. I was on Crush Ridge, which was one of the original servers. And um I was in the best horde guild, and he was in one of the best alliance guilds, so little Star Crossed.

SPEAKER_01 8:07

And little Romeo and Julia action.

SPEAKER_02 8:09

Yep, and uh our server had a bounty system, so the best players who were out there, there was a bounty system where if you could kill them and prove it, you you know got gold or whatever it was, and he was on there. Um, and uh he because he was actually the only hunter on this on the entire server who ever got Thoridol, which was the legendary bow from the Sunwheel.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 8:31

And he was kind of just like a little bit infamous, and he became friends with the hunter in my guild. And so one day we're all just you know hanging out, and he joins our I guess it was Vent back then, Ventrillo. And and and I'm like, Oh, it's him, right? It was one of those moments, right? Where yeah, I kind of knew of him and everything, and then um he kept he would join our our vent here and there, and um he you know he wasn't happy with his guild. He was friends with some of the guys in my guild. They're like, you know what, just and there were no faction changes back then, right? So like you can say what start a new character on hoard, we'll power level you, we'll get you up and you can join us. And he kind of wiffle waffled on it every now and then. He finally, finally caved, he leveled, he started, he's like, Okay guys, I started a new character. Happened to be the like two hours after I had just started New Alt. Oh, and so they were like, Well, who actually just started New Shaman? Why don't you guys level together? I'll bring you through some dungeons. And this is our friend Wick, and he power levels us through some dungeons. We spent the whole day together. He had to go, and we were like, Do you want to keep leveling? Sure. And a year and a half later he moves from Florida to Canada and we get married. Oh wow. We're engaged forever, but yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Oh my gosh. No, and I love that uh in chat Joe's saying uh Amy's part uh boyfriend. I'm gonna say boyfriend or partner, I can't, my brain. Um, but he said that Crush Ridge was also his OG server as well, so that's so cool. Oh, really?

SPEAKER_02 10:01

Yeah, like the original Crush Ridge? Oh my goodness, do I do I do I know this person?

SPEAKER_06 10:05

Yeah, it's cool. Way back when I don't I don't know if you play, did you play uh Alliance or Horde back in the day? Alliance we're in chat keeping going.

SPEAKER_02 10:16

I was I was in Rampage. Okay on Horde. Played both sides.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Oh my goodness. That's what I double H now.

SPEAKER_06 10:29

I was I was originally on Storm Rage back during uh Wrath. So and now I play on like a bunch of different servers.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

So my first like my origin story with WoW was um my high school boyfriend got me into it, and it wasn't like, oh hey, here's this, you know, game that I think you'd like, which I actually had a little bit of experience with from my friend's house that consisted of me like begging her to use her family computer because that was what it was, and um yeah, I he was like, I play he played a Drani Paladin, and I he was like, You're I play a paladin and I tank, and you're gonna play a shaman and you're gonna heal. And this is your laptop. It was like his laptop, but he paid for my account, he get gave me his laptop, he's like, These are the buttons you push, these are the add-ons you're gonna use. Like, I basically, it was just like, Oh, okay, yeah, that we're gonna do this. And I I loved the game at that time because it was like time with him, but now I get to love the game for myself and just like enjoy and experience it, and I'm not just like, oh yeah, like my girlfriend can come heal for us because you know, whatever. Um, Mr. Sperry says, This sounds like what you made me play. So I I yeah, I hassled Mr. Sperry for a long time um to be able to um to be able to get him to stop playing Greenscape and to start playing um start playing WoW. So he started playing last August, two Augusts ago now, right? Yeah. No? I don't know. My timeline is gonna be all messed up. But basically the first AOTC that he got was undermined. So um, and yeah, he's been crushing it. But I I'm interested to know what the the lead up was for you and Tyler, Sam. Was it similar? Like, did you have to hound it? Because he was like notoriously anti-WOW for a while too, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:29

Oh yeah, he used to call it World of Warcrap every time I would talk about and um so we had been dating for well dating for like eight years and would not play it. I kept begging him, like when he would come over, I was like, oh my god, like I have my PC, like you can try and play, like and he would just yeah, like it's so stupid, it's a fantasy game, it's so stupid. And then I started streaming it, and he was like, Oh, like you got friends, and like oh like like I could surprise you had friends. I I think it was that, but he had like a little bit of FOMO, I could tell. And then he was like, Oh, well, let me just you know, let me try classic. And he made a gnome called Let Me Seat Him and A Gnome. I know I should have divorced him right then. No, he tried it and he like slowly fell in love with it, and then I was like, Okay, well, like now I got a new PC. Here you go, you have a PC, like try it out, download it. What's the worst that happens? Like, you hate it, you uninstall it. Okay. Then he started playing it, and I told him to go druid because I was like, druid is so versatile, you can do a tank, a heal, 2DBS. Like, there's nothing you can hate about a druid. And he tried it and fell in love with it, and now like he plays probably World of Warcraft more than he plays any other game. And like you said, like it's like quality time between the two of us, too. So it's a mixture of that, and that he's a little bit obsessed. But I'm just grateful that he gave it a try.

SPEAKER_01 14:01

Yeah, yeah, no, that's impressive. I I'm glad that he switched it up and that he's not playing no Mr. Sperry. Luckily, was like, we're playing, I'm playing Horde because he had some background in WoW from like back in the day. Um, he he knew enough of the story and enough of WoW that he was like, Yeah, we'll we'll go this. And his first tune is a it was a Torin druid named Musifer. Um, and so I'm like, yeah, spot on, spot on. Um, I do have kind of leading into the conversation today. I'm interested, do you normally tell people in game that you are a woman or not? Like, I think I think all of us play like female apparent characters. I can think of a couple, like I know I saw Gfo's name in chat. She she uh her like Studly Night Elf is um all all man baby. Um, but I'm wondering like what interactions have you had that it could have come up? Um, or have you disclosed before? I know Amy, you do have some adventures on Moonguard, so that comes up from time to time.

SPEAKER_06 15:18

I was actually about to say, most people know I'm a girl because they recognize my pink-haired demon hunter, because you know, all of my tunes are demon hunters because I have a problem. Um, but they recognize her from like all of her dance videos or from like streams. So I will literally go into Goldeshire a lot and people will be like, I know who you are, I've seen your videos. So they automatically know I'm a girl right away. Um it's not in WoW that I have to disclose I'm a girl or feel like the need to not or do. It's it's on other platforms where I have to defend my girl.

SPEAKER_04 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 15:57

So, um, but but most of the time people in game know I'm a girl, and especially in every raid group I'm in, they know who I am.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

So yeah. What about you, Hula? Has that ever come up, especially from like being probably the longest standing WoW player in our group here?

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah, actually, I so my very, very first character was an undead warlock. And I was new to MMOs, new to the new to the experience, and um definitely had some, you know, I'm a I was a woman on the internet when it was stuff was still relatively new. Let's just say I saw more penises than I cared to. Um and you know, and it was one of those things where it's very early on where you know you join a raid group and you join Vent or Skype or whatever it is, you say hello and suddenly BAM DMs. Um and so actually when I uh when TBC first came out and they introduced blood elves and paladins to Horde, um, I was like, I want to be a paladin, I wanna be a blood elf. And I made a male blood elf paladin. And I leveled it outside of my guild. Um I didn't guild up, I leveled without a guild, I leveled, and I did not tell anyone who I was. Because I wanted to know what it was like to play the game because not knowing I'm a woman. Wow. Um and it was a very different experience, especially back then. Wow. Um because that's that's the weird thing, is women have always played WoW, like from the beginning. We've been there. But it was always still back then considered, you know, very much a man's game.

SPEAKER_03 17:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

Um, and if you were a woman, you were like the only one in the guild and the only one in the raid type thing. The token will be. Yeah, I leveled yep. So I leveled my paladin um as a man and uh and didn't tell anyone who I was or didn't speak in voice. Uh just oh sorry, my mic's broken, right? So uh it was a very different experience. It was just I just got to play the game.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

So tell us tell me a little bit about the differences because that immediately is like, okay, well, tell us how side by side the experiences compared, because I'm very interested in that.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

So in into it very interestingly, as when people knew I was a woman, they were either much more open to my to if I made a mistake, like, oh it's okay, I've got you, don't worry, right? Wanting to coach me, wanting to be my mentor. Um, and or really harsh.

SPEAKER_04 18:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:35

Just I had to perform twice as well to do half as, you know, to be considered half as even. Yeah. Um, which is, you know, of course, is something we experience across the board. Um, but it was it was one or the other. There was no just middle ground of like, hey, you're just the person playing the game.

SPEAKER_04 18:51

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:51

Um, but when I when people thought I was just some guy playing a a paladin, um, you know, it was just like, oh hey, good job. Um, that was it. So I would go do I would go do a pickup rate or you know, I would I would go to something here, I would just file leveling, because leveling back then took a long time.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:08

Um, you know, and it was very much just like, all right, cool, good dungeon. See you later, dude. And I'd be like, wait, that's it. There's no DMs, there's no, hey, can I ask you as a friend? Hey, do you want to go do this? And you want to like, no, I don't want to get to know you better. Like, I just want to play the damn game. Um, and so it was very much a I think the thing that that I really enjoyed about it is I got to pick when I wanted to become more social with the people I was playing with. It wasn't thrust upon me. Yeah. Where, oh, you're a woman, do you want to be my friend? Do you want to be my pocket healer, right? Like, do you want to see my dick? Like the unsolicited.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Like, oh, we read a dungeon. You must want to see what's in my pants for sure. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

Yeah, pretty much exactly. Obviously, that's the next step. Um, so yeah, it was it was definitely a different experience where I just got to play the game and I did and I got to choose when I wanted to build relationships. Not I didn't have to defend not wanting to build that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah, yeah. I was gonna say in chat, Hey Hannah said um in Pugs, people seem to default to he him pronouns when talking about others in the group. And 99.9% of the time I don't correct them. Uh I have the same exact experience. They're like, okay, lads, or okay, but guys, or whatever. And I'm like, yep, we're I'm just one of the guys just hanging out.

SPEAKER_06 20:28

Um I had him with the I had him with the uh thank you, girly pops. I'm a nude.

SPEAKER_01 20:34

She Uno reverses. Um yeah, it's crazy. Mr. Sperry said all the guys love coaching Sperry too, and only Vats offers to coach me. So we're very, very lucky. Um that esteemed guide maker Vats uh is in our crew in the Sperry Squad, and he I think uh has a lot to do with the growth that Mr. Sperry had. So honorable mention to Vats. Um very grateful for him. Um, but yeah, we'll forever be a lock-in ladies type of gal, says Pixel. Yeah, make sure you start, make sure you start the energy right. Um, what about you, Amy and Sam? Have you had experiences where, like, especially when you started playing while you were a child, like that's a whole other stratosphere of like how were the protections set up? If there were any, was it just kind of like we're gonna teach you, like, hey, like just don't answer random whispers, like try not to read trade chat if you can help it, especially you know, depending where you are in the world.

SPEAKER_00 21:41

Well, I for me, I kind of had like a similar experience to Hula because I played a male night elf. My dad had made the character and then like just told me that I could play him. So I was like, I'm not gonna do that instead of leveling another character because it took forever. So I played a male character, but when I I I did my first raid in Wrath of the Lich King and we were doing Ice Crown Citadel. They wanted to go in Ventrilo, and my dad was like, You are not going in there. Like you are not talking to anybody. Good dad. Good dad. He was like, even if you just like hear them, like if for some reason you unmute accidentally, like you don't really understand what you're doing, you have no idea what these people are gonna say. Because I if you guys have ever been in a raid and you hear some guys really getting going, you know, they can say some really interesting things. So I had a little bit of a protection until I kind of branched out on my own in Legion, and then I I you know I was old enough where I was like, Oh, I'm gonna join it and my dad's not gonna know, and then did like get some weird messages because I didn't have a Discord or anything really set up back then. It was just like in-game messages, and every once in a while just weird things, but I just brushed it off. Like I wasn't gonna try and make a big deal of it because like what was I gonna do? Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 23:04

Yeah, I I think I so I was definitely a part of the generation of like don't talk to strangers online because you never know who they are. But I did play, I played a ton of WoW, but I was solo, so I was solo up through Mist and Pandaria, and then I took my college break, and then when I came back in uh Dragonflight, that's when I was the first time I had joined a guild because I was like, I'm an adult now. It can't hurt me. So um oh how we learn. Well, look, that's what life is about, is it's about learning. But uh I yeah, I didn't talk to anybody. In fact, my parents fully knew what I was doing. Um they were just like, Don't talk to people on the internet. Yeah, but one thing I did the thing that I didn't tell them, because I was 17. I uh one thing I didn't tell them was I was playing a blood elf hunter. And anybody who played back then knows that the better your armor is, like stat-wise, the less clothing there is, especially if you play a female character. And at 17, I'm like, I can't let mom see this, she's gonna freak out, but I need the higher armor rating.

SPEAKER_01 24:14

It's gonna be like, Why are you naked?

SPEAKER_06 24:18

So I'm like, thank god that's not always the case now. Of course, now I'm like, yes, to chain kinis, but like at least I have the option. But that was yeah, strangers of the internet wasn't really a thing my parents worried about because I I did not, I was too nervous too, because I don't break rules, you know.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

I love what Ghosty Bat says. Um, I was 10 and kept pissing a guy off in PvP, and the guy whispered me a lot of terrible shit talk. My dad was like, let me message him back and blocked him. Oh my gosh, good dad, good dad. These are good dads, good dads. I also love what Joe said um in chat. Said, uh, so there's an interesting phenomenon there to unpack, I think. On the one hand, there's a tendency to treat women differently because we're taught we're supposed to, but on the other hand, there's also the bros supporting bros portion of things where dudes don't like to coach or mentor other men because it's emasculating, but we're taught that we should help women wherever possible, which might just be a bigger issue with society. So I think that this really comes down to like the social conditioning of the world that we live in. And I think, you know, luckily we're living in a in a world today where we're more aware of all of these uh kind of subliminal messages that have gone on and some very intentional like gender rolling that has been thrust upon us, um, as you know, Hula had mentioned earlier. So I think being able to take I I like to look at WoW as like a lab for the world because the interactions that we have here, um, depending on the people that we're interacting with, they can have you know moderate consequences compared to the people that we're interfacing with IRL. Um, I'm thinking about like pugs and stuff. Obviously, the exchanges that we have with our guildies or people in our raid or people that are we're close to, those are gonna have some lasting consequences. But um, yeah, I think it's very, very interesting to see how it kind of messes up the ability to just let people be people. Um, because there are the should messages and the should not messages, and I have to be this person or that person. Um Joe in chat said that's wild that you'll have to deal with that all the time. Like it happens to me sometimes, but it's more the exception rather than the rule. There's only been two people that have sent me random messages over the years. I still talk to both of them. Uh, one is Mad Lad and the other isn't around anymore, but we had some good times before they just vanished. Yeah, it's it is very interesting to think about just the amount of noise that men and women deal with, like the levels, the noise levels. Um, and I think it's very interesting too the way that our brains compute things. When I am working with a couple, I usually help um husbands understand how to support their wives without adding on more to the decision fatigue. And I'm like, look, everything in the room is talking to her. The clutter on the floor, the dishes that aren't done, the TV show that's on, the toddler that's bouncing up and down, like everything in the room is talking to her, not just you. So try to just see what ways you can make things a little bit quieter, and I think it's the a similar thing with all of the noise that we're trying to interact with in-game, socially, whatever's happening in our world, all of that kind of stuff. Um, because I think sometimes it's much easier for I don't know, men to like lock in. I either see everything or I see nothing. I see like the one thing, and I think that that's just part of the ADHD superpower. Doodle Ablei. You're okay. Um But yeah, I I just the idea of these things.

SPEAKER_02 28:16

Yeah, one thing actually that that stuck out to me when when Joe made that comment about how, you know, because I think that was in relation to or in response to my thing, how people would either be like try to coach me or they would expect too much of me. And I think there's like there's definitely something to that where they would treat me um very well and like coach me and like wanna, oh, how can I help you? And let me like, oh let me let me get you some cloth for your tailoring, and very much that until I proved that I was as good or better than them. As long as I stayed where I was supposed to, being the little girl in the corner who was just here to have fun and wear pretty dresses, you know, then I got that really excellent treatment. But as soon as I was like, I'm doing more DPS than you, suddenly, oh, uh, she's not good enough to be here. She made one mistake, whereas other people make 20 mistakes and it's totally fine. And it was like as soon as you hit that threshold where you feel where I'm guessing I'm not a man, but they feel threatened. Because as the woman, you're not supposed to be as good as them at a game like this, right? I'm not supposed to do as much damage as them. Um and I think there were I definitely as I got better at the game and started realizing I'm pretty damn good at this game and started, you know, good going better and better guilds and stuff like that. As soon as I started realizing that, that's when I started seeing that shift um personally. And then of course, I'm not saying this isn't everyone. Like I had some guys who are like, damn, you're good, let's play. Right? Like that's that's those are the kind of people that over time I I found myself more with, especially and I see this a lot um with my exposure to the race to world first to the very high-end guilds, is at the very, very top, they don't care. Yeah, yeah. It's it's can you do the job? Can you execute the mechanics? Can you do the damage? Can you do the healing? I literally do not care what you look like, how you identify, anything like that. And you know, and back in back in the day, you know, I I got to that point where I was playing in those guilds, and they're like, I don't care, just do your job, just help us get, you know, server first type thing. Um, I still walk around with my magic seeker title, which is World uh Realm First Malagos. Oh that's that was my my guild my guild had um this is back in the Crusher Inch Days, we had one competitor guild on Alliance, and the only reason they got all the server first is they started Raid an hour earlier than us. We would normally kill within 45 minutes of them, so technically we would have to beat them if we'd started at the same time. But but when we went to Malagos, when it opened up, they were the leg was so bad, they eventually gave up. We had spies over there, we're like, are they going? Are they done? So our deal was like, We're not, we're not, we're not leaving till this dies. Like they gave up. This is our server for the first time.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

Like we have to get this server first.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

Yeah, the leg was horrible. We ended up getting it with one person alive.

SPEAKER_01 31:06

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 31:07

Wow, yeah, and it was really bad. And so, but I wear that, I wear that title proudly.

SPEAKER_01 31:12

Yeah, no, you earned it. That's a that is an earned title. Take that forever. Um yeah, I think that it's honestly just a crazy thing to hear all of the stories that everybody has, and like also, I had seen a couple comments in here. Um, there uh was a study that found this is from Abso, who uh fun fact, if you're new to the Sperry Squad, Abso is my one IRL client that I have a dual relationship with. Um, and we have uh we're lucky enough to know, you know, his insight from how it is to be my client as well. But he said there is was a study that found more that more insecure men express higher levels of hostility to women gamers and more uh deference to male gamers with deeper voices. Yeah, it's very interesting. So it uh it really is the automatic systems in your brain and how regulated your nervous system is. So, as all of us have experienced, I'm sure, you get the adrenaline rush, you get the cortisol rush as you are pushing certain content in this game. That's already present. So you're already primed for a uh for a fight or flight moment. And I think that a lot of our worst versions of ourselves come out in the fight or flight moments. Um I'm thinking about like it makes sense to me when people will say heinous things in game. What doesn't make sense to me is like when you put content out or when you share a milestone. And um, I'm thinking about when we were putting information out for Sam's um women co-stream, and people were like, Oh, but they're all guys in real life, and we're like we all literally stream on camera.

SPEAKER_04 33:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 33:07

I'm so confused. Like, why is it important to you? Because I I think that there is this instinct to just cut whoever down a peg because they're like, Oh, I need to feel like I am secure in myself. And it is, like Abso said, it is usually the most insecure individuals that need to disempower others in order to feel like there's some even ground. Because it's like, dang, like if you were if you were secure and confident, you would recognize that there's room for everybody at the table. Like it doesn't, yeah, doesn't have to be.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

I wanna know what was the worst part about those was the women actually s saying things. Like that was a important yeah. It like there was a couple comments that were like, um essentially like you know, what why do you need to draw attention to women? We've been here the whole time, which yes, yeah, we've been here the whole time. For sure. Um, and then they were like, This isn't how real women play. Wow, real women do this, that, and the other thing. And you know, when I come back and I'm like, okay, well, well, what's 3K? What's AOTC? What's yeah, you know, yeah, then they go quiet because they don't think that I guess I can do both. Like, I don't understand where that, but like it's it's worse seeing another woman not in support of something that's beneficial for them. And I I just I don't understand it.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

This is something that I've actually I wrote a paper on this, not for school, just for fun. Yep. Because more nerds. Um, we love it. And um it's something that uh we've also talked about in uh Visage, um, about top bringing bringing awareness of this is internalized misogyny in wow and in gaming, and it's huge, it's pervasive. And you know, as has been clearly made obvious, but not explicitly stated, I am a little bit older than you ladies. Um and uh I had that period of time in my life. Um I'm not ashamed to say it because I think we all have. Um, I think the most important thing is being able to recognize it and move past it. Yeah. And understand what it is and why it's making me feel and say certain things. Yep. Um, because again, it is it's something that is indoctrinated in us, right, from the get-go. And one thing that um, you know, in my previous career I was a lawyer, which is also a very male-dominated space. And I think when we have these discussions, one one thing I like to envision is we're in a boardroom and there's 20 seats around the table, and three of them are women. And all the rest of the women that want a seat at this table are for some reason vying for those three seats. We're fighting against each other for those three seats at the table. And I'm sitting here going, There's 17 other fucking seats, ladies. Right.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

Let's take those. Yeah, why aren't we taking it in this room? Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:03

Why are we fighting against ourselves for the three seats out of 20?

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

When we should be making them like, excuse me, sir, you're in my seat. Yes. You know, and I think that we really need to, and that's why I think things like these discussions, groups like visage, groups where we're where we're sitting together and saying, Let's take those seats because we belong here. We deserve to be here. We certainly worked our asses off to be here. And why are we fighting each other for this small piece of the puzzle? 100%. That's something where I think it's really important in a world like gaming where we are constantly being told, you know, we're not enough, we're not good enough, and we're like, no, sir, you're in my seat.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah. Oh yeah. No, seriously, that's so good. No, sir, you are actually in my seat. 100%. There's so much more room for everybody here, and the the lie that has us, you know, competing for this much of the pie is just insane. Um, so leading into that, what's what's something people outside gaming misunderstand about women that play games? Like, I know I know we've all joked about this. Uh Amy and Sam specifically, I know the three of us have joked about, like, oh god, the people that I work with are gonna see my content. Um, but I'm interested, especially for you, as your career is gaming. Um, like, if tell me, tell me more about what your guys' experience has been as a woman that like we don't just like lightly play games, like we are in it. We are gamers, we have invested our time and our money into this thing. Um, so yeah, share a little bit about what that's been like.

SPEAKER_06 37:50

Well, I can tell you right now that one of my coworkers has already found my content. She's an average Twitch person. Funny enough, she met her husband on Twitch. So she didn't think anything different of me. She was just like, that's cool, I don't play wow. Um, but I think she the thing that always like makes her that made her kind of giggle is that I'm very put together at work. I'm very Southern Bell businesswoman, like corporate kind of. But when I come home and I change into my sweats, I'm in Gribbling mode and I'm on stream, and she's just like, I didn't know what I was expecting. I was expecting either or not both. So I think it's the duality that some people think that women gamers can't have, that we can be both like stereotypical pretty, but also at the same time, like give me my Diet Coke, my hoodie, and my dog, and I'm good for the next four or five hours. Like, you may have to remind me to drink water, but you know, like I just water me from time to time.

SPEAKER_01 38:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:59

And then also my cursing goes up during rain. Oh, yeah. Um, and I don't curse at word, but then she was like, I've never heard you drop so many F bombs. And I'm like, Well, you know, if the tank would just stop dying in the middle of the fight, we don't have the anymore.

SPEAKER_01 39:16

That was our experience last night. I bricked Sam's key so hard, and I was like, I'm pretty sure they're ready for me to stop fiddle paddling around over here. Oh god. Um, but yeah, no, I think that that's hilarious too. Like, cause there is the level of like anonymity to some degree when you're in game, but when you're streaming, that's a completely separate thing. Yeah, it's like insane. But I I do think that there is a little bit of like there is like the you know, women, any role that women can do gets fetishized. You know what I mean? No matter what you are, you could be at the top of your career, you can be just, you know, raising your kids, you can just be hanging around, and literally everybody can somehow twist that into some sort of sexual fantasy, which is hilarious and terrifying all at the same time. But anyway, um, so Amy, I love that experience. I feel like, wasn't there didn't somebody at church know about the fic? Or um no, okay, so wait, important background, Hula. If you didn't know, Amy and her boyfriend both are fanfic writers. And also, yes. And they're very good and talented fanfic authors, but yes.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

I I am an AO3 enjoyer.

SPEAKER_06 40:38

I'm um, so fun fact, before my boyfriend and I started dating, we known each other for a while through Twitch and World of Warcraft. He I had like challenged him as a writer, as a friend writer, to write me a fanfic of me with Illidan because naturally as a demon hunter, Illidaddy is king. Um that one. So, I mean, and then through that, and like because we do writer, like we'll get together and do writers and talk and we start dating. Well, someone asked a church or story. And if it was any of anyone that was my age, I would not have had the issue of telling them the story. But it was a sweet old lady, a sweet old southern lady that would, you know, give you give her give you the shirt off her back kind of deal. And I'm like, I I can't tell her this story, but my mom was like, Didn't he write you a book? And I was like, see, my mom knows what a fanfiction is. Yep. She knows. Sound right, but this little sweet little old lady, I'm like, how am I supposed to expect it to tell her that we started dating through the course of him writing this 200 word 200,000 word fanfic of me falling in love with a half-naked night demon team thing.

SPEAKER_02 42:02

Um is it fanfic available for reading?

SPEAKER_06 42:06

Um, I think part one is.

SPEAKER_01 42:08

It's on DBNR. I will send you the link, Hula. It's yes, I got you. I got you, my friend.

SPEAKER_06 42:17

Also, there is a scene between me and Ilisana that I uh had to bar.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

I was gonna say it's an it's an Illidon fanfic, but the tension between you and Ilisana is uh that's not me, so who's gonna read it out loud this time?

SPEAKER_06 42:37

We do readings, um, but we keep it TOS friendly. Like I don't go into any of the spy scenes.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 42:44

Um but it's it is uh we keep it TOS friendly. But yes, it is available. Part one is available. I don't know when he'll do part two or when he'll edit part two, but I think Sperry might have a copy of it. Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

And Caleb said, let's read it out loud at Blows Kanhula because we have more welcome to.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

We had uh we had an adventure at North Rend Live.

SPEAKER_01 43:07

We sure did. It was it was a time. It was a time. What is that called?

SPEAKER_02 43:15

Um Um so for those that that don't know, uh Sperry uh was at North Rend Live, uh, which was the community event in uh in uh Toronto. Caleb was there as well. And after the event, a bunch of us went back to the hotel and we ended up hanging out playing trivia until like four in the morning, um, in the hotel lobby, and it it became very unhinged, uh, which was the best. And at one point I mentioned I was aware of a fanfic of a Pandarin named Manopaw and her it was an erotica fanfic, and her uh relationship With Gorfiend, Terran Gorfiend, specifically the one from Hellfire Citadel. So if you played back then, you know I'm not talking about humanoid Terran Gorfiend. I'm talking about giant demon who eats people, Terran Gorfiend.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

Um the giant hole in his gut, his bulging, yeah, pulsating gut. Listen to that, please.

SPEAKER_02 44:23

I would very much like to make it clear I did not write this. Um I was it was it traumatized me so much that to this day I remember it.

SPEAKER_03 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

Um that's what it was. It was one of those ones where there were just it's it started out fine, and then there's this one sentence where it just goes off the rails. And we had Ileana read this out loud to the group. Um and I think it got filmed, which is I feel so bad for that.

SPEAKER_01 44:52

I have the I have the recording.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

Me too. Um, so yes, it was Mr.

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Sperry says the plot moved quickly, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_02 45:02

Right? It was like kind of like, oh, there's Gorfiend, and suddenly bam. Um, it was it was definitely a thing. Um, and I think we need to recreate this moment with Amy's Illa Daddy uh fanfic at BlizzCon. No kidding.

SPEAKER_06 45:19

I should not be at BlizzCon. Oh no. I have I have an elderly dog who if I were to be further than two hours away from him, I would not function. Yes. No, no. So um I told I've told multiple people video call me, like I like I will be there in spirit, but I have to take care of my elderly dog who who's blind. So he being in like weird environments and being gone without me for so long, he like freaks out. So he keeps me home, okay. So but I will but I will gladly be video called into this reading of of Joe's fanfic that he wrote for me. And now it it comes on a uh like his seriously, like the level of like I don't know, the levels now that we're dating and that we have no issue having these discussions with each other. Um, I don't know if further writing will be leaked game before Lee because at first when he was Yeah, at first it's just it was the imagination, yeah. And now it's just like it was a challenge.

SPEAKER_01 46:27

Hmm. Hmm.

SPEAKER_06 46:31

It was also slightly therapeutically healing before we started dating, and in fact, like I literally finished the end of part two. I closed up my my book and I said and I messaged him, I said, I need to have words with you, and then that later that night we started dating.

SPEAKER_01 46:46

Oh yeah, yep, literally that night. I still remember when they told me it was fantastic. Um I was gonna say, Sam, uh, I'm interested in your experience in the office because does anybody you know, like, did they know that you game, that you stream? They don't know that you game at all.

SPEAKER_00 47:09

They know I play video games, but then when they ask video games, I tell I divert them. I'm like, oh, I just play like Rivals and I play like Palea. Yeah. Like I'm cozy games. I send them on a different I remember when I was um I I was like, oh yeah, I'm gonna be going to like um this convention in September, like I'm gonna be needing time off. Like my manager like starts grilling me. She's like, oh, what is it? And I'm like meeting up with some friends and oh my god. We know each other.

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah, no, people hear convention and they're like, oh, is it like professional development?

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Yeah, yeah, yes, it is.

SPEAKER_06 47:51

In a way, it is learning in a way, it is.

SPEAKER_00 47:54

Yeah, it's not leadership training, yes. So I I try and keep it like so secret. I I remember we had an intern over the summer last year, and none of my social media is my real name. It's all SCF plays. This guy was trying to find me, like his life depended on it. And he was like, I've Googled every name I can think of for you, and like I'm like, I you can't find me because I don't want to be found.

SPEAKER_01 48:19

Yeah. If they know the game, they would be able to find you quickly.

SPEAKER_00 48:24

Definitely does not, and like, even if you type in like to know SCF, even if you just type in SCF, it's like a college or something. So like I was good. You're not finding me.

SPEAKER_01 48:38

Oh my gosh, I'm a sleeper agent.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Um I I have a very different experience currently.

SPEAKER_01 48:48

Yeah, because you this is your this is your life, this is your world.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

I definitely was in that same boat as Sam though when I worked at a law firm. I would take time off for like an expansion launch and they'd be like, oh, you going on vacation? I'm like, no. I'm just gonna stay at home. Or I would just flat out lie. I'm like, yeah, might go visit some family in-game. Um, and you know, yeah. So basically I would I would not want people to know this part of my life because it wasn't congruent, right? People don't, especially in a profession like lawyer, you know, people don't want to know that you have a a social life.

SPEAKER_03 49:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

Um they don't want to know that you your clients don't want to know that you spend your off time, you know, reading whatever it is. Um they want to think that you spend your spare time literally just like reading law books. Yeah, reading books. That's that's what that's what they think. That's what they want to think. They want their lawyer to be someone who just spends all day floor. Um but like no, we don't want to do this at all. Um I also go full gremlin mode as soon as I get home. Um, but now it's such I can't tell you how much of a beautiful feeling it is to have a career and a job where I go to my boss and say, Hey, I'm not gonna be around Thursday to Saturday because classic TBC is coming out and I'm going full gremlin leveling. And his response is, cool, have fun.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

Yeah, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 50:13

Like that's it's it is honestly just like an amazing feeling, and where I can just be upfront about what I'm gonna do with my time. Um, and it's it's a job where I I get to be fully myself. Um I don't have to hide a part of me to present a s a different part of me.

SPEAKER_04 50:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:32

Um I can just be and like don't get me wrong, I'm still professional at work. Um, you know, my my role isn't just you know be a gremlin. Like I have I do a lot and you know I still we and we still have to be in I'm in meetings all the time with with with other you know professional people and like I have to be presentable and stuff like that. Um but it's a world where my colleagues and the people close to me understand that I'm still like after we finish for the day, I'm off playing games. Um so it's uh it's a it's a it's definitely a a wonderful thing that I get to be myself at my job instead of for and you know unpacking that. It sucks that we feel like we have to hide it.

SPEAKER_01 51:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:12

You know why like it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:14

I think it goes back to what you were saying about how there has to be this caliber of performance in whatever field we're in, that it has to be this like overdone, like upper echelon. I am doing the most and I'm doing the best, and it's kind of like paying for the the woman role taking a man role, you know? And it's like we don't have to do that, we don't have to do the payment system. Um, we can just be here just like anybody else. And I think it's really cool because I see I am missing a quite a bit in chat. Um, so I apologize. If you guys do want to have a question answered, just do the exclamation point ask in any of our chats, and it'll put you in a queue. Um, but I have seen a lot of really incredible men that play this game that are very supportive and want to know how to best support their friends in you know our in our gaming, in the in this industry, and also just generally and like making spaces more friendly to everybody. But um yeah, you said that it's like there's an expectation when you're a professional, especially if you're a lawyer. I've noticed the same thing as a therapist, um, and that was a big thing for me with starting to create content was like really normalizing authenticity. Um, and you know, uh when I first started, there was somebody in the newbish dads community actually that his partner was looking to go, she was looking into uh becoming a therapist and also wanted to stream, and she's like, Well, what do you do? Like, are you afraid that your clients are gonna see your content? And that's that's happened. Obviously, one is my mod. Um, one of my young adult clients just recently found the content and has been interacting and stuff with me. Um, but I'm like, you just are the same person in every room, you know? Like, you are this person here, and I have the luxury because I have virtually nothing to lose. Like, I I've been in like when I worked in group homes and detention centers and stuff with uh with teens, I was not as outright with what I disclosed about my life, but I'm very privileged now, um, as a contracted private practice therapist, that if people don't like me, they can find another therapist, you know. Like if my colleagues don't like me, they don't have to talk to me. Like, it's fine. And I think it's really refreshing to see that every single person has their own life. And I, you know, it's really important that we we work to pay for the life that we want, but we shouldn't be living just to work and like put ourselves in that like cog in the machine type thing. Um this this question I think is interesting is do you think WOW has a different culture for women than other games? Or do you think that there's a lot of crossover and why?

SPEAKER_06 54:05

I I mean, so I played Destiny, so full disclosure, when I was taking a break, I had I was married to someone who hated WoW and deleted my launcher off of the PC twice during Legion, so that's the reason why I didn't come back during Legion for Illa Daddy. But we were a big Destiny house. Yeah, I know. It was that may not have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but it was definitely one of the straws on the camel's back.

SPEAKER_01 54:30

It was one of the contributing factors.

SPEAKER_06 54:33

Yes, but we um but we were a big destiny raiding household. Like massive destiny rating household and Halo too. So we were a bungee household.

SPEAKER_01 54:44

Caleb said, imagine being jealous of a pixelated night elf.

SPEAKER_06 54:50

I mean, I'm still slightly jealous of Savannah's, but for other reasons, and we're not gonna get into that. That's not that's kind of fairly function. Um but uh so uh in the FPS world, women can't play FPS well. And we we would follow a lot of um major league gaming shows, like especially with Halo, and there was an all-girl Halo team, and no matter how good they did, they were still treated like dog shit because in the FPS world, women don't do well. For some reason, and they are never treated as nicely as I have been treated in WoW. Even even the meanest dudes in WoW are so much nicer than the FPS world. Yeah, like FPS world, they treat like it's it's very sexist to a point where it's um like you don't even belong your computer, go back to the kitchen and make a sandwich, kind of like vibe. Whereas here they they're like, oh, go back to playing your team thing. At least I'm playing wow with their insults, like yeah, yeah. Go back to your house. Yeah, now it's go back to your wow house. It's like okay, I will think I um I I and even in the WoW community, it I I and I I've experienced this in mostly in like the top, and we've kind of already gone over how the top players are usually your nicest people. Um that's not the case in the FPS world. They are super toxic and mean, period. But in WoW, if like let's say Caleb, I know for a fact is you know is Mythic Rader and he's a dude, he doesn't care. He's just here to have fun and you know get the job done, and super helpful and nice and kind. And every single person that I've met that's in a high competitive guild, super nice, don't care, willing to help you, give you pointers. Joe's one, although he's a healer. We he doesn't know well, he knows DPS. What am I talking about? I just would never heal him in a dungeon because he stands in more stuff than I do now. But um, I think he does it to punish me for all the stuff I stand in. Um, but they're far more willing to help. Don't heal that I am far they are far more willing to help and be accepting in the WoW community than in most any other video game community that I've ever been a part of. Um, especially the F FPS community, which is one of the reasons why I don't play Marvel Rivals, even though it's not really FPS, but it's pretty close. Yeah that game is toxic.

SPEAKER_00 57:45

I was just gonna say, like, Rivals is essentially the same. Like, yeah, I can't like this I and Tyler will attest to this, like I try and stay quiet as much as possible because like the second they hear a women's a woman's voice, like they will throw sometimes, like just just fuck up your gameplay, excuse me, mess up your gameplay entirely. And it's just like like in wow I and I like honestly, the biggest difference I've noticed is wow, it's just like stupid things. It's like oh, you're a bad player, you suck at the game, goodbye, go back to your house. In those types of games, they are coming for you, like it's every insult under the sun, like brain dead, stupid, you're fat, you're ugly, like all the obviously they don't know these things, but they really go for the jugular in those games, and uh even if you have thick skin, eventually it wears down, and it's just like you know what? I'm gonna step away. And honestly, I don't like the person I become when I play those games. Like if I play for too long, I start to become that person, and I'm like, I need to I need to step back because like this is this is changing me into a different person that I don't want to be. So wow is definitely better.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

Yeah, that makes me think of me at like hockey games or like live music. I just say I'm like I'm genuinely like an armpit of a human being. I'm my worst self when I can feel the electricity of the mob mentality, and I'm just like, ooh, I just gotta rage. Like I keep it all inside all the time. So this is the time that I get to let it out. Um, but yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:27

I I I don't play any FPS games. Yeah. Um, which is probably a good thing. The reason the main reason being is I'm really bad at them. And if I pick up a game and I'm not instantly amazing, I have no interest in it. Um I mean I don't I'm like it's I mean that's not entirely true, but it's it I get frustrated because I'm not doing well and I'm like then I don't have fun. Um the other the only other game that I've really played, I play a lot of solo games, um, just just to kill time, but the only other game that I've really played that's kind of com uh cooperative is League of Legends. And I'm sure you've heard stories of League of Legends community being pretty toxic. Um I personally haven't experienced that much because I don't play high level. Um I don't actually really play ranked. I will just, you know, play here and there and stuff like that. The one thing that I found very interesting when you compare WoW and League is women have roles. In League, you are you're like you're you're support main, right? And in WoW, you're a healer, right? You are just assumed to be in the caretaker role because you are in fact a woman. And it's like, no, um, I'm gonna play NASA's top, sorry, you're on your own down there, or no, I'm gonna play Demon Hunter and I'm gonna just I'm I'm only here to do damage type thing, or I'm gonna tank, right? Um honestly, shout out to the women tanks out there. Like, that's a role that is tough and is very often like um Vitamin P works at Raider IO and she is a phenomenal player, really good tank. She she tanks high, high keys, always has. And I can't tell you how many times she's had a story where she'll take a key, they're like, hey, great job, and then they find out it's a woman, like, what a woman just tanked my key? What? Imagine she did it really well. What? And it's just this like, why is that so surprising to you? Um, but yeah, no, it's it's one of those things where I've I've found that to be an interesting where you you're you're allowed to play these games, unlike the FPS where you like, you know, Samu said. And I've I've seen um there's a streamer, I don't know her what her name is, but she'll do she'll she'll put out clips of her content where the men are just disgustingly volatile as soon as they find out she's a woman, but then she kills them all and it's hilarious. Yes, um yes. And uh, but like they will they will intentionally sabotage their own gameplay and their own success rate just to bring her down. Whereas in games in WoW and League, I think one of the differences is it's more of a cooperative game. Like we're not playing against each other unless you're PvPing, which is another realm entirely. Um, but you know, we're working together to do something, whereas and they're like, okay, fine, you can you can come along and be part of the team, but you have your quarter heal me type thing. Yeah, right. So I think that's kind of the in in other games that's kind of the where I've seen that that weird dichotomy is you can play the game with me, but yeah.

unknown 1:02:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:30

But I think that's the nice thing with uh Joe being the healer in our so in our relationship, Joe's always been the healer, and I've always been the DPS. So we get the fun um dynamic of me being the problem child, especially being a demon hunter, right uh with ADHD. So I'll he's always gotta make sure I take my my meds before race. So but uh but Joe it it it flip-flops. We're I don't like I mean, I guess Joe in a way is a caretaker, but he's just being a supportive partner. Um, but uh it's it's really fun when I tell people it's like, yeah, Joe's actually my pocket healer. And I was like, and I can never be his pocket healer because he likes to make me realize how much I stand in when he GPSes. Get out of the fire, Amy! Yeah, exactly. Amy, you're standing in stuff again. You're standing in the bed. Or he'll do the dear sweetie love of my life. Your your HPS went from like 100% to 2% in 0.2 seconds. What happened there?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

If you're gonna stay in the mat, press a defensive, do something.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:40

I thought I was I thought I was out of the front hole.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:48

I know.

SPEAKER_06 1:03:50

Well, I see like I'm a devourer now, so I'm like, I couldn't shift out of it. Or actually, this actually saves me from more stuff than Felrush ever did.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:59

Fox says it must be a bug. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:04

Obviously a bug. I can't tell you how often Felblade has gotten me into trouble. Yep. I have a clip and mail, I didn't mean to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:14

Yeah, I have a clip of me, I think it was in um Theater of Pain, ventril retreating off of one of the platforms and fell rushing to get back on. And I was like, oh I am playing video games right now. I am doing gamer things, and there's another one of the Dementius fight where I did the opposite. I fell rushed off of the edge, but I ventual retreated to save it. And I was like, you know what? Thank god I play a demon hunter because I I have the mobility to cover for my own flaws, um, my own fumbles. So all of this, you know, conversation of the problem, all of the conversation of just kind of like where things are at. I'm interested in your experience. Have you been in a guild or a community that has actually gotten it right? That has not made you feel like a sore thumb, like you're sticking out like a sore thumb, that has not felt like they were tiptoeing around you, that has not looked down or changed the measure of you know your skill. Have you actually been in a you know, in a group that's gotten it right? And how do they do it?

SPEAKER_06 1:05:27

That's the only play with I guess oh go ahead, Amy. No, um I think all of the groups I play now, there are individuals in said groups, but as a whole, the leadership um I get treated, uh I think all it's all except one guild or one grade group is predominantly men. Whereas in my Saturday night group, I think it's about 50 50 ish. Um, but all the other ones, my Tuesday, Thursday, and Sunday night is predominantly men. Um I still get treated just. Like one of the guys. They don't care. And that's and that is and that is literally how I'm treated equally. And that's fine. That's the way I want it. Like I grew up with two older brothers. So I I understand the whole like we love you, so we're gonna jab at you kind of mentality. I'm fine with that. That's what they got right.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:20

Um, and the raid leaders are always super watchful of anyone who comes in who's new who wants to say something, and then they're like, hey, you know, there's like three girls that play in here. And we're like, hey!

unknown 1:06:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:34

So but um hello, we don't talk very much because we're DPS, but we're here. Um, but yeah, that's kind of uh uh that's how they did it right. We're just one of the guys, and not in like a weird dynamo. It it is literally just we'll should talk and we should shit talk each other because we care. So like and there's no hard feelings at the end of the day.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:57

Yeah, teasing is a love language, I think, in in groups like this. But uh Sam, what were you gonna say for that one?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:05

I don't have like the raiding experience because I never really have raided, but I was a part of a guild for many years, just like a silent player. Uh the guild is Pennsylve. I don't know what realm they're on, but that guild took absolutely no bullshit. I remember I was on one time and they had like a lot of LGBTQ. They had they would do events for people's birthdays. Like this was a guild that was like really big. Yeah, they were really big into their own community. And even me, like when I would go to these events, I was kind of just like the wallflower sitting in the background. But they would make me feel welcome. And I remember one person did join the guild thinking it was a raiding guild because there was like four or five hundred people in it, and when they found out it wasn't a raiding guild, they went on like a tirade in chat one night and just kept spamming disgusting things. And the guild leader reported them, banned them, removed them from the guild, and just put out such a good message into the Discord channel that essentially was just like, we don't stand for this. There's no way that we're gonna let somebody like this ruin our piece that we've built, whether you're new here, you've been here, you're a part of this community. And I was like, you know what? That's like that was such a shock to me because I've only ever seen it potentially be so negative from things you see online and everything. So I was like, I can't believe I'm part of a guild that's open and willing to support the people around them.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:35

And then now obviously I do it myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:38

Yeah. I was gonna say you you do get to set the tone. I think that that's like a whole other level of responsibility. And I know we've talked like in in our group, especially with like other guild leaders, like I'm thinking about like Numbish dad and stuff, but like people in leadership and Mackie with her group, um, like being uh the person that's responsible for the culture of the group or the company, Hula, I'm sure that's a massive undertaking, is just like making sure that the culture reflects just safety and security for everybody, mutual respect, shared, you know, um, you know, equity and everything like that. Like, tell me what that's like for you guys, because I feel like it's something that not everybody knows how to do right, you know? Uh there's another question that I had in conjunction with that that was like, um, what are some of the silent, like, what are some of the silent ways that we quietly push women out, even if we're not overtly hostile, uh, in some of the guilds and the communities that don't do it right, but I kind of want to combine those. So, like, how are you watching for that as a leader? What have you noticed has been, you know, something that has impacted you? Um, I know I was Valk and I were in a guild that was really quietly uncomfortable because of some of the messaging from like the guild leader to the women specifically, and the way that women were talked about, and I'm just like like there's not anything overtly wrong, but this is really uncomfy, you know, like this is just not great. So tell me a little bit how you set the standard to protect the culture of your guild or of your company or of the the group that you're you know playing with.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:31

I so I've been through um I've been in a number of guilds over the years, and sometimes that's the reason I left and found a new guild. I was like, this isn't this is a toxic environment to be in for as a woman or just generally. Um and I would say the first group, so even even the guilds back way back when that like the Crush French days, like when I was like raiding really hardcore, um, where I was respected because I performed well, but there was always this like I can't tell you how many times I got asked to help the officers, and it would be like, Can you take notes? Can you do admit? I'm like, Am I your secretary?

SPEAKER_01 1:11:12

Like clerical work immediately.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:14

Essentially, and it's like and and you know, and that that also I've I've seen that in in the law world as well, like where if you're in a meeting and you're the only woman, there's just this unwritten, you're the one taking notes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:26

Yeah, get the skirt on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:29

Exactly. Did you not take notes? No, why? Like uh so yeah, so I've I've been in yeah, I've I've definitely been in those guilds. Um I find the what the the ones very where you're talking about where it's not like overtly hostile, but you're like, something's not quite right here. I've been in some guilds where they're almost performative in trying to be accepting.

SPEAKER_03 1:11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:51

I joined one guild where like in the meeting, um it was uh myself and another two other friends, one another one of whom was a woman, we wanted to join because our guild was kind of falling apart and we wanted to raid together, and we were talking to them and and like they volunteered the information that oh when we have a trans woman, but it's okay, we we still like her. Oh. I'm like, wait, what did you just say? What? Wild. It's like oh okay. Yeah, um, like just making sure we knew that there was a trans woman and she is accepted here. And then you realize as you go through and you raid with them and you see the language they're using, you're like, oh, you can't actually accept her. Yeah, yeah. Um and so yeah, it was one of those things. I've been in those guilds too. Um, I'd say the first group I really felt comfortable in was um a technically an open do you guys remember open raid? Are you old enough to remember that? Yeah, so it was a group in Open Raid that started in Open Raid, but I joined through a friend. Um, this is back in I want to say WAD. Okay. Um, and the leader of that was a guy named Chris, to to this day I'm still very good friends with. Um, and he created this environment where it was just like, we're just here to play. And it was an open raid group, so it's like we're not even here to do well, we're just here to play.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:17

And it was the first time I kind of really felt that environment where I didn't feel pressured to do something or take on a specific role, and it really opened my eyes to be like, oh, we could just be here to play. And it was very much just a casual kind of thing, and there were no expectations, there was no but he also didn't like and it because it was an open rate thing where people had to sign up every week, if someone did not act appropriately, he was like, You're not coming back. That's just how it is. Like he's like, and he could cultivate. And I think that's kind of what it comes to, like cultivating the culture is he had he had this just like ability to like, oh no, I didn't like you last week. You didn't, you know, you weren't either you didn't play well, you know, or like you you died to everything, you wiped us a bunch of time, sorry, or um you were a dick. So bye. Um and it was just I think the the virtue of being technically a pug group made that easy for him. Um but I learned from that, and then um I ended up leading my own guilds, so I uh after Tumusar Garris, um I decided to to stop raiding five days a week. I was like US 30th at that point. Um and I'm like I'm I'm gonna take it easy. I still want to get my mythic CE, but let's just and so I created a guild with Chris actually, um, and we made a two two day-a-week guild. We're like, we're gonna mythic raid, we're gonna have fun. And it was very much we cultivated our own culture, and part of that we were mythic CE, so performance. It was performance-based. Uh, but it was very much like I don't care where you come from, what you identify as, as long as you did I mean, I and I was kind of ruthless. I actually removed someone mid-raid um from the raid group, not the kill, the raid group because he was in the wrong spec.

SPEAKER_03 1:14:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:58

Um I was like, why are you this spec music? Because it's fun. I'm like, it does half the damage of the other one. We're progressing mid thing. What are you doing? Like, no, you're out of here. I was a little bit I was a little bit ruthless. I this was a performance-based guild, and we made that clear from the onset. Um we're raiding like four and a half hours a week and we want to get C E, like you have to play well. Um, I think it was a Death Knight, and I think I made him cry. Anyways. Um but uh you know, but it was one of those things where it was like, you know, we we got to set expectations. I think that's the biggest thing. Yeah. Cultivating a culture. If you set your expectations, you're clear on them, and you enforce them.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:37

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:37

Um, you know, we've I've had min tournaments and stuff like this, and you have rules, and I said, a rule is not a rule if you can't and don't enforce it. Yeah, it's so true. And so if you're creating a culture in a company, in a guild, in whatever you're doing in your social environment, you can say all these things, but if you don't follow through with them, you're not actually creating that culture. Yeah. Um so within within Raider IO, um, our culture comes a lot from our founder, Ja. And he's he's the boss. Um and he has created a culture where I think it's more just he's been playing this game since the beginning, he loves this game. Raider IO is actually his passion project, technically, it's not even his real his main job. Um, and but he he when I first started here, there were only about four or five people. Half of them were women. And that was great to see, and then you know, I I rose up pretty quickly because I started just kind of I'm a little type A and I just kind of started taking control of things. And he's like, Okay, you're just in charge. Yeah um, but he very much was very it from day one, it was very much I don't care who you are, I care what you do. And that's what it really comes down to at Raider IO is do you love this game? Do you like the people around you? Do you treat them with respect? And do you do a good like do you care about your job? Do you care about the people around you? And if you do, you belong here. And if you don't, I will have a meeting with you. And you will not enjoy said meeting.

SPEAKER_03 1:17:04

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:04

Um, but it's and and then I think that that could it's you know, I'm sorry, I'm I'm taking over a lot of time here rambling. No, but I think it a lot of it really comes down to in a leadership position, either as a guild leader, a raid leader, uh general manager of a company, is I need to earn their respect, not by my position, but by how I treat everyone around me. And you know, I don't I don't say I'm the GM, therefore you respect me. It's I will treat you with respect, I will treat you well, I will care about you, I will care about the work you do, I will set expectations for you, and I will expect you to meet those expectations. Yeah. But if you don't, I will work with you to meet those expectations. I will say I always say to everyone that that works works at Raider IO is my job is to make sure you have the tools and resources you need to do your job. That is literally my job, is to make sure to make sure everything goes well, I need to make sure the people that that report to me can do their jobs. Yeah. Same thing as a guild leader, as a raid leader. If I'm not providing you the tools that you need to perform well in this guild, to execute the mechanics, and to have a good, respectful time doing so, I'm not creating that culture.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:14

So that needs to be my job is to make sure you have what you need to enjoy your time here and do well.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:20

Yeah, that's so good. And that's Fox said signs of a good boss. Yes, 100%. 100%. I think people feel very unsteady with uncertain expectations. Like it's the worst thing. I've seen very well-intentioned people that have surrendered their backbone for the sake of like public niceties, like they don't want to rock the boat, so they're like, ah, like they they meant well. I'm like, uh most everybody is not trying to rain on anybody else's parade. Most everybody is operating with the best intentions that you can expect. Some people, yes, they're a little antisocial, they want to rock the boat, they want to ruin the thing, and you know, they they they're fewer than we think. The people who mess up or that don't do well usually do it on accident or because they were ill-equipped. And so I love what you said where it's like, okay, I'm going to make sure people have what they need in terms of expectations, in terms of resources, in terms of knowledge, so that they can, you know, adequately do the thing. Um, I think part of the challenge when it comes to the, you know, the dynamic of being a woman and gaming and things like that is there are now certain pockets of conversations like this where it's like, okay, well, how do you know who does it right? What do you want? How do you want to be treated? And I feel like initially, if somebody, I have had people that have been like, okay, like, how can we support women in this game? How can we support, you know, women that are our friends? And I'm like, genuinely, for me, who's literally this is my job to help people articulate certain things in their own lives, I'm like, I genuinely don't know until I experience it. And kind of what Amy was saying, like, I I enjoy not looking like some sort of mythical alien that nobody knows how to talk to. Like, that's great. If you can like look at my eyes and speak to me in English, then I think we can figure figure it out. Even if you start spitting some bars in Spanish or Russian, I can I can make uh make sense of it. But yeah. Oh, look at the kitty. Oh, it's like I'm out, actually. Yeah, yeah. Little cameo. Um, but yeah, I think it's it's tough to nail down. Exactly. Can you put your tinfoil hat on for me, please? Yeah, literally, man. But I think it's we do. It's like we're either a threat or we're a unicorn, like and a prize to be collected. And I'm like, I don't want to be that, you know. Well, no, let me let me disclaim. I want to be a trophy wife for Mr. Sperry. Mr. Sperry can treat me like a unicorn, uh, a prize. He could show me off and make me feel just like this pretty dainty thing that makes his life better, and that's fine. Nobody else gets to put me in that position. Nobody else gets to put me in that role in their life. Um, I literally built a life with him and walked down an aisle and said vows and said this is for life. And that's that was my consent right there. Um, but Cory, you're insane.

SPEAKER_06 1:21:44

Corey. Corey's literally, I know.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:49

Um, but yeah, I think that it's it's refreshing. Even an exchange like that, like I think as relationships get a little bit, I don't know, more meaningful, you get to know somebody a little bit more, you are allowed to talk to people in a way that you like just the general public doesn't get to speak with you. And I think that that is something that throws a monkey wrench in the the gendered conversations or the gendered roles that we're in. Because for men, it's easy to have this camaraderie of like bros, right? But I think back to the social conditioning of it all and the things that we learn in our society and in our culture is like women are supposed to be protected or treasured or pursued, they're not just friends, and so the scaffolding by which that relationship is built is very different, and I think that that's something that can be uncomfortable for a lot of people. So, yeah, I'm wondering like if there have been I can think of pretty much every guy that has been in this chat that's in our shared communities, that you know I've had the pleasure of interacting with, like, there there aren't any that I've really struggled with. I know that again, I have my husband on stream with me quite often, so I think that there is a little bit of uh protection there for me. But I know Sam, even though you literally stream with Tyler on with you, I've been in chat when people have said some crazy things to you. So, and I've seen you handle it, and you handle it beautifully. You're just like, well, you know, like that's ridiculous. Like, you're gonna be timed out, like you wouldn't say come here and say that to my face. Like, that's it's very strange that you would want to say that to me, you know, in stream. But tell me more about like how to navigate that and what you've done, and if there's anything additionally that you and Tyler have talked about offline. Like, I've had to talk to Mr. Sperry about like how do we as a team, how are we deciding to handle things if they get crazy in chat? Yeah. Um, and I know that obviously, like now Joe is more present in your streams as well, like even on screen, but specifically Sam, I've seen you do this in action, so tell me more about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:16

I mean, I like I think it just comes down to the type of person that I am. Like it takes a lot for somebody to actually frustrate me and like get under my skin, and for me to actually be like shaved out because I have heard everything under the sun being a woman and the way that I look personally, and uh so like if people come in and they start being creepy, like I usually my rule is three you say it one time, okay, you said your thing, you moved on. Like, I'm not gonna hold it against you. Maybe you were testing the waters, whatever. If you do it two more times, you are gone. Like, I I don't take any BS with it anymore, especially even if I wasn't married, like you don't you shouldn't do that to anybody, right? Whether you know they're married, they're in a relationship, they're single, whatever. You shouldn't approach people and like pretend to be one of those like mating birds and you start doing your little dance and going back and forth, and you're like trying to see what I'm exactly like trying to see what I react to. Yeah. So I mean, in terms of like what have Tyler and I talked about, it's just I he is obviously my main mod because he's usually here when I'm playing and stuff like that. And I have like a like I'll signal him if there's somebody to really like get rid of. But it I've even had to have the conversation with him, like, is there stuff that makes you uncomfortable? Because some people have come in and said things about Tyler, and I'm like, oh thank god, it's not me. And I'm like I'm like, you need to set your boundary too, because it might not be your channel, but your face is still on there, and you can be just as uncomfortable as I can be, but you have to let people know where your line is because if you just let them come in and keep saying things and you don't ever do anything about it, they're gonna see that as acceptance, and that they can just keep coming back and do the same thing, and nothing will happen to them ever. Yeah, but again, like I I truly think it's I am an OBS person and I I go from like zero to sixty very quick, like I'm the mellowest person, and then I could switch it off and find out where you live, find out who you are, where you work, and I will blind home in life, I will go full taken mode. Um, so yeah, that's just my experience with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:38

Yeah. Um, I am interested in what helps all of you keep loving the game despite the negativity.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:49

Oh, community.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:50

You guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:26:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:54

It's like the good ends. Like I wouldn't have stopped playing if if I had never found people, I wouldn't have ever stopped playing. Like I would still play to this day, but I think I have the desire to play so much because of people I can log in and just say, hey guys, and people respond to me. And you know, I can talk with you guys all on your Discord channels and just like this as well. And that just keeps me wanting to come back in a different I I even if I lost you guys all tomorrow, I still would keep that in my mind every time I logged in.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:31

I think I'll also like along on top of the community, it's like for me personally, it's it's the drive for those who who don't know. I was terrified of in-game content for the for several years because I unfortunately was with an asshat who constantly told me that I was bad, partly because of being a woman. Yep. So there there's this drive, and and I know Sperry kind of touched on it at the beginning of of uh constantly setting the bar. A little bit higher every season. Yeah. It's almost like my way of like healing a part of myself that I lost years ago of being that in-game content player again and then getting to that point. Like this season, we're pushing CE for the first time. Last season I hit 3K for the first season, which was a massive achievement because I almost threw it out the window because of Pugs.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:22

But we know we've store.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:25

Um, but it's it's that drive and that push is almost to prove to myself that I can do it. Like I know I can. Yeah. And then also it it helps to have that amazing community that we're all surrounded with, and many of us are, yeah. Um, to help kind of get us to those those goals. And then also the dance parties are um are awesome. Yes, Cory. I remember that floodgate with that warlock that we talk to everything, and I was confused as to why they were being mobs when we had percentage. Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 1:28:58

Yeah. I think it's it's probably similar to me, is it's mostly community. Um I I started really playing WoW as an escape, and it became it became a safe space for me. And you know, as I mentioned in my old career, obviously, you know, things have have l lovingly taken a turn, is that part of me had to be separate, and this was the place where I felt I could actually be who I am. I could be myself. Um you know, I I when I grew up I'm not that old, but like, you know, we didn't have the internet as much as everyone does now. Like when I was in high school, not everyone had home internet, not everyone had home computer, right? It was kind of you know uh this wasn't really there. So you identified yourself with other stuff, obviously. And so I had an identity, which was I was a softball player, that's who I was up until maybe 25-ish around there. If you asked me, like, oh what do you do? I would say I'm a ball player.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:58

Um, I I've I won national championships, I've I played at college, like I played at a very high level, and um that was just who I was, but then it was this weird thing where outside of that, who am I? And I realized I'm a gamer. I love this world, and I love that I can do this, but like in in that in that other world, I couldn't tell people that I couldn't be this unhinged person that's just like, no, pull more packs, like you know, I could I couldn't be that person. Um, so I I loved that I had a place where I could be that, and I think that feeling has always stuck with me, even though now I can be my full self at all times. Yeah, um, the game has always had that for me. So there's always there's a little bit of nostalgia for me. This game has has been this game and I have been through a lot together um in 20 plus years, and that's one reason I keep playing. Number two, honestly, I just enjoyed the game. Like when it comes down to it, like the community and all that, I just I just love the game. Like I love logging in and fell rushing and eye-beaming and pulling all these packs and doing dells and raids and like all that stuff. And I think another reason is it's something I'm good at. And I think we all get enjoyment out of performing well and succeeding and stuff like that. And it's uh something I've always I've always felt comfortable with my performance and what I can do in the game. Um whereas I you know, and we've probably all felt that like I'll go play a different game, like I'll go play League of Legends. I'm like, I'm terrible at this. Yeah, this isn't that fun for me, right? Like I'm I'm bad. Um, what is vision? I don't know. And so then I'll go back to Warcraft because it just feels right. Yeah. Um, but then the you know, and but then I will obviously the community is the biggest part. Like, as I said, I met my husband on this game. I've met so many friends in this game. My current guild, Day Glow, is the best vibes ever. Um, it is a really welcoming space. It's casual, like there's no I will admit every now and then, because I do come from a higher rating background where I'll be like, not everyone here is going to be the same. And I have to accept that, and I do, but every now and then I'm like that mechanic 18 minutes now. Maybe we tried something else.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:16

How about we try looking with our eyes this time? Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:20

I will admit part of me is like, nope, just sh shut your mouth. Yep. That's not the guild you're in now. And but I I will take that, you know, in stride to have the vibes of this guild. Um, because this is this is a very good home for me. Um, but you know, every now and then I'm like, no, no, no, don't say anything, don't say anything.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:41

Fox said, how about we try turning on our monitor?

SPEAKER_02 1:32:46

That might be good advice. Um but uh and I think yeah, that's you know, that's why I keep coming back. It's a great, it's just a fantastic game when it comes down to it.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:55

The community that we've built around it is so much fun. And uh I have a lot of great memories, and you know, it's it's just been a place for me to be myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:05

Yeah, I think that the beautiful thing about WoW is there's so many things now for anybody. Like it can be a cozy game, it can be a competitive game, it can be uh, you know, it can be an MMO RPG, like the way that people accuse it of not being anymore, you know, like you can slow down, and there are four different iterations of the game out currently that are available to people. Like there's so many different facets within one version of it, and if that's not enough, well, guess what? You've got a few others. So I just think that it's a beautiful thing, and I had made a post about this, but um back to the nostalgia thing, it's cool because like the way that your brain, your memory center, stores the memories of Azeroth, it it stores them as real places that you lived through. So this is like truly like where you have had periods of your life, it's just such a cool thing, it's comforting. And yeah, I think uh there are so many things that make me feel naive from time to time, but I refuse to give up being hopeful, I think. And for every I don't know, for every mouth breather on the internet that decides to be a little spicy because they're frustrated and they're in their lizard brain, um, there are 10 more incredible people that immediately flood in to drown out their words. Like I remember one time I had I think I I do not get a lot of like hate messages or anything or just even ignorant messages, but one time somebody was like, Isn't wow too complicated for a woman or something like that? And um literally, I didn't even have to say anything. Chat just did it, they were just like immediately are just like and my husband uh hats off to him. He said, Didn't you know that complicated is a woman's territory? Um and I was just like literally Yeah, I'm surprised it's not too anyway. Um, but I also uh am a firm believer that like part of the work that I do is trying to to see the Lola, it's okay. Stop. Stop. I'm trying to talk to you. Come here. Um I think a lot of what I do is like trying to see the the vulnerabilities that everybody has. And I know I've said it before that like all of the oppositional people on the internet are just inner toddlers. Um they just need their uppies, and that's why they're acting out. They are not acting like an adult with well-adjusted behaviors or emotions, they just need a little help. Um, and if this is for anybody, if you're a streamer, if you are somebody that is playing the game, I I know that that energy doesn't belong in every community. The sperry squad, I have it intentionally so people can practice being better. So if you have somebody who's just kind of a douche, send them to me. I don't care. Like if they are willing to listen, I will talk with them. If they can't understand why nobody can get along with them, I will I would love to to help them and genuinely get to know them and understand why their survival uh their survival instincts are putting people at arm's length. You know, maybe you didn't realize it's okay to say certain things or, you know, like we don't know until somebody teaches us. And I think that, you know, there have been a lot of really great teachers in my life that have helped me understand things like this, you know. Um, and I can probably say the same for you three as well, and as many people in chat. Um, but yeah, people aren't gonna do better unless somebody's willing to teach them that there is better. You know, they're just like, this is a standard. People are terrible to each other on the internet. What do you mean? We have to be nice, like we have to be respectful. That's how uh like yeah, like it's but possible actually to have fun and mutually respectful. Absolutely. Um, so they just won't know until they know. Um, we're coming down to the last like 15 minutes of this. I just first off want to thank you guys for your time. I think this has been an awesome conversation. And there's one more question that I want to finalize this whole conversation with. Um, and that's if a girl is watching this and wondering, do I belong in gaming? Do I belong in WoW? What would you want to tell her?

SPEAKER_06 1:37:49

Yes. You belong in WoW. Women have been involved in WoW before WoW with Warcraft. I mean, yeah. Look at the strong female characters that we have. They've only gotten better since I mean, like, I I 100% looked up to Sylvanas for a long time. And Alexstraza, and they've gotten more depth and beauty, and and so have the women playing the game. So, yes, you belong here.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:23

Yeah, wonderfully put. Do you guys have something to add, Sam, Hula, aspiring gamers or other people that yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:36

My answer is unequivocally yes. You belong. It doesn't matter who you are. Um, I guess I would then turn that to that person is do you think a man is sitting here going, Do I belong in this game?

SPEAKER_01 1:38:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:49

That and yes, you know, and they'll know, then why are you asking? Because you have every right to be here and deserve to be here, and this game is for everyone. Every game is for everyone. Yes. Um yeah, you don't you yeah, exactly. You don't need permission to to play this game, you just need 15 bucks a month. Yeah, literally. Um your money's just as green or purple or red. I mean, I'm kidding. Um yeah, no, it's yes, unequivocally, yes. But then ask yourself why you're even asking.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:23

Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's really good. I would say um the answer isn't, you know, do you belong here? It's are you gonna have fun here? Yeah. And it's, you know, just because you can go somewhere, and just because you should be able to be there or join there, um, you may not have fun there. So, you know, I can walk into a room that I could be in, but I might not like the conversations going on in there. So it's just a matter of you have to actually try it. And uh yes, it takes, you know, potentially blocking out some hate and getting through those rough patches, but at the end of the day, are you having fun? Is it something that you're actually enjoying? And if it's not, then don't play. Yeah, it's not about you belonging, it's uh is it a place you want to be?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:12

That's such a good reframe, and I think that that goes for the things to be doing in WoW too. Do you have fun doing this? Um I definitely was having, I don't know if anybody else deals with like imposter syndrome or just trying to like keep the heat off of yourself. I think from the idea that you have to be perfect, you have to perform very highly. Um, but I was really excited this season because uh, you know, a few seasons back I would uh I would tank for Raid and for dungeons and stuff, and then last year I kind of was like, I don't know, like this this other person in my guild is better than me, and so for the better, like it just because it you know it would be better for the group, it wouldn't take as long for us to figure things out, they wouldn't have to be patient with me, the heat wouldn't be on me, so to speak. You know, I'll defer to him and I'll let him tank and I'll swap my roles and I'll just do DPS and all of that stuff. But this tier, I I did have that same feeling. There are a couple people who are really good at what they do, and they've tanked for a really long time and they're experienced and they're fantastic, but that's what I love to do in this game. Like, I genuinely love tanking so much. Um, and I was like, I'm not gonna get better at this if I don't if I keep on taking myself out of that role. Like, nobody asked me to step out of it. It was literally just like, oh, I should let somebody more proficient at this do this. And this season I didn't do that. I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna stick it out. And there are things that are challenging, and there are keys like we had last night that I'm like, thank god I'm running with friends that are patient and are kind and are telling me, like, hey, by the way, maybe do something completely not what you're doing right now. Because like that's that's kindness, like that's friendship. And I think that uh I was the only one taking myself out of the running. I think sometimes there are people who try to push you out, but I think because of the instinct, sometimes uh we remove ourselves too. So I think any advice that I would share is like along with what Sam said, make sure that this is something that you actually have fun doing, that you don't feel like you have to do. Um, there were certain things that I did when I was younger that I was like, oh, I'm just gonna do this because all the boys do this and I'm gonna be better than the boys at it. Like, I'm gonna skateboard and I'm gonna do archery and I'm gonna go hunting and I'm gonna do blah blah blah. And I'm like, but like, do I have fun? Like, I remember my last my last time hunting ever, it was negative six. I was in a tree stand with my brother, and I was like, this sucks. This freaking sucks. I don't want to do this, I don't wanna drag a a you know, I don't want to drag a deer through the woods. I don't want to have to do all of that. I don't want to sit in the freezing cold. I'm actually totally good on that, dog. I don't need to do this anymore. So, same goes for anything in the gaming stratosphere. I think make sure you're having fun. Don't take yourself out of the running um because that's just you think it'd be more convenient for anybody. But yeah. Um, any final words, any final thoughts, anything that we hadn't covered that you just want to leave people with to think about, to consider, or any final plugs, let people know how to find you on socials as well. Um, just to finish finish this bad boy off. Um, I'm gonna start in the same order too. So, Amy, if you would go first.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:52

Final thoughts. Um you did not prepare us for this one spare. You prepare the didn't think about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:04

If you need a pass, then we could pass, but no, I'm not gonna pass.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:07

First, I'll start off with first, you can find me Amy LeW on everywhere. I'm the same, everywhere, um, except for uh BNET because they gave us beautiful four numbers at the end of our tags. They did. Um But uh I I guess my last thing is don't ever let anyone like dampen that flame. If you love WoW, play Wow Um and do it in a stinking hot outfit. Uh if anyone tells you that you have too feminine of an outfit, just be like whatever, like I'm gonna slay these monsters with my butterfly wings. Yeah, it's why I have them on every raid night because it's ironic and hilarious. Although it sheaths my blades away and I don't see them, and I can't wait for that update to change. Yeah. Um so uh but yeah, like just just wear, just just just play the game how you want it. I think Wow is beautiful in the sense is that it has so many sub-genres in one game. Do whatever you want. If someone tells me you're playing a game wrong, you just look at them and you just say, If you don't pay my sub.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:21

Real real. If you're not paying for me to play, don't tell me how to play.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:26

And girls remember that. Ladies, remember that. If if he's not paying your actually, even if he is paying your sub, yep. It's your mouse and keyboard. Yep. So too bad, so sad. Yep. It's my time. I'm just gonna so no, he would never tell me how to play this. But uh yeah, so that yeah, that's my that's my closing my closing argument. My thank you, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:48

Thank you. I like it. I like it too. Hula, how about for you?

SPEAKER_02 1:45:52

Uh I would say a couple things. Um, something you actually touched on yourself, Sperry, is you know, we're all gonna get comments that are emotionally triggering, uh, negative hate. For every bad comment, every good one shines out two times more. And you said yourself, like in your stream, you had someone who said something completely inappropriate and chat just jumped on them. And I want people to know if you're that person and you have the ability just to make that good comment or to reverse that, it has a bigger impact than you probably know. Please don't eat that rapper. You're a cat. Um and um just really quick, so um, for those of you that don't know, I was just uh re recently on the raceful first for Team Liquid. Um I did the small little Radero recap in the evening, and I was very apprehensive about doing this. I've cast I casted the Raceful First uh a number of tiers ago for Echo um during COVID and pieces and aversion, and um my experience was both good and bad. Um the very first day I casted for Echo, I was super excited to do so. I was pumped, I was ready, I did so much research, and I saw a comment in chat that said, She's so fat, I hope she dies.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:13

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:15

And that was not the only comment of the like that I got. Um and I will say emotionally, like, ow, that hurts, right? Yeah. Um and but there I had to, you know, and so after that I didn't look at chat, but then every now and then I would, and there'd be some comments, but every time that happened, ten people came to my defense. Yep. And every time that happened, it made it worthwhile for me to keep going. And um, I also, you know, would logically have that re that rationale. Like if someone sees me on on camera and they've never seen me before in my life, they don't know anything about me, they don't know who I am, and they feel this compulsion to write that out and hit enter with their whole adult chest, and they think that this is a good thing to say. There is something fundamentally wrong with that person, and I have to come to that realization that it's not me, it's them. Um, and like again, like my weight makes me an easy target. I'm aware, like, oh my god, she's so like no shit, like I have a mirror and eyes. Um, and but I then realized I would watch the other streams, and Aya makes Nagura, they are objectively the gorgeous women, like they are beautiful women, and they would get so much shit too. And but it would be different, it would be like, oh, who's that slut on the broadcast, right? She must be sleeping with all the players. Literally, and I would see that then I go, it is not because of my weight or what I look like, it is because I am a woman, I am successful, and how dare I, right? And I had to come to that realization that this is why. And you know, it's one of those things where you sit there logically, you're having this discussion with yourself, but it still hurts. But then every time I would see these comments, or there were a couple times where I wasn't on, I wasn't on shift, and I would just be watching, and I would see people go, Where's Hula? When's Hula on next? And the just just that one brief positive comment made me realize that I can do this and it's worthwhile and it made me want to keep going. So I guess that's my that's my kind of takeaway from this is there's gonna be bad actors out there, there always will be, there will always be negativity, but if you can inject just a little bit of positivity, you will change someone's life.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:37

Yeah, you never know. Say the thing. I I've been in that position where it's like, oh, I feel like some of you may have gotten messages like this from me before, but like sometimes people will just be on my mind, and I'm like, oh, like I I don't know what it is, but now I always, always, always will. Reach out to them, be like, I know it's kind of weird. You are on my mind. I just want to let you know I'm grateful to know you. And I think that you're, you know, I think that you're great. And you know, I'm glad to, you know, whatever it is, whatever the general um kind word is. And I'm like, I get in my brain, because I'm like, who am I that I think that they need this from me? It's not that at all. It's I just don't ever want to go and feel regret for not saying the kind thing. Um I'm I think Amy's smiling. I think you probably have had messages like this from me before.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:34

There have been a couple of how many times have I cried at work because Sperry sent me a message helpless or the Sperry moment TikToks where I'm in the doctors the parking lot in my doctor's office. I'm like, cool. And I have to go and explain to them that my my friends Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:56

There are so many. Let me tell you, as a therapist, one of the things that I'm learning about hearing the insight to people's worlds is first of all, there's way more than anybody lets on. And I know that like logically we know, like, oh yeah, there's a story behind every face. No, like legitimately, you have no idea who is going home to be assaulted every night. You have no idea who's driving around with $2 in their pocket and they're trying to figure out how to feed their kids. You have no idea who is surviving on WoW because their actual life is complete hell. Like, you have no idea the depth of true despair people experience. And those little things that you say truly are tethers to getting to the next day and the next day and the next day. And if you can just get people to recognize, oh, I'm I'm somebody noticed me, and I'm not a nuisance, and they're not saying mean things, and they're like Hula said, they're looking forward to seeing me. They like the things that I'm contributing. Like it is healing to pe people as individuals, but to us as a society as well. And heck yeah, I stand on it. Say the kind thing. Um before I knife. Yeah, it's really not. It's free, it's literally free. It's free to say anything. It costs you nothing. Um, but yes, Sam, finish finish us off strong girl. Uh, final words, where to find you? Oh, hula, where can we find you on socials? I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:32

Oh, uh, you can find me at Raider.io, I'm kidding. Um I don't stream company plug. I don't stream uh but Twitter uh at hula hoop C with a Y because at Hula Hoops is taken by a chip company.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:48

Oh, how dare they?

SPEAKER_02 1:52:50

Nice. Yeah, I guess the hula hoops in the UK are like a corn chip.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:54

Oh well, the more you know, the more you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:58

So hula hoop C with a Y for both Twitter and Twitch, but other than that, just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:53:02

Perfect. Thank you. Okay, Sam. On to you, my friend.

SPEAKER_04 1:53:07

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:08

Yeah. Okay.

unknown 1:53:12

No.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:13

Um, just a couple things. So like this is taken from like my perspective as to like given how long I've been gaming, games I've played, and then making content, and it's something I've also learned in my professional life is that angry people are the loudest. Like quiet people or happy people, they might like leave you a good review on your business, on Google Business, but they're not necessarily going to call you up and tell you what a good job you did and leave these glowing recommendations for you. It's always when something goes wrong that people speak the loudest about it, and that's why it seems that there's always so many angry people out there is just because they're the ones we're hearing. We're not hearing the happy people. So when you have people come into your chats or write messages on your posts or anything, just keep that in the back of your mind that like maybe this person's having a bad day, we have no idea what happened, maybe they're dunking coffee spilled on the sidewalk. Like, we don't know necessarily what's giving into it, and let's just if it continues to happen, we'll address it. But everybody needs, you know, a moment to vent and get that frustration, anger out. It's not always personal, and that sounds like such a customer service training guide, right there. Yeah, but it's true. Yeah, it is true. It's it's just unfortunately the reality of it. But if you are having somebody continually do it, I would just say take that negativity as fuel. If somebody is saying you're an awful player, well, that's gonna fuel me to become a better player, even if I don't necessarily need to. Like it's gonna drive me to, well, you said I can't do it, so I'm going to do it now. And especially I'm that person naturally. It's like every you know, you tell me not to touch the button, I'm gonna touch the button. So it just makes it makes me just want to be a better person. And then my other piece of advice is branch out. Like, I regret playing solo and being a hermit crab for so long of my life, not just in wow, like in life too. Like, I never really had friends until now. Yeah. Um, so like don't be afraid to like, yeah, like put yourself out there and I guess shoot yourself uh shot, but yeah, it can genuinely change the way you view everything in this world and the way things make you feel when you know that there are people supporting you just as much as you're supporting them. So those are my thoughts. And then SEF plays everywhere.

SPEAKER_01 1:55:44

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Thank you so much. And yeah, I think it's very important to do the thing afraid. I've said this multiple times on stream. Um, but talking about uh shooting your shot, saying the kind thing, all of these things, one of my favorite quotes is speak up even if your voice shakes. Like it does not matter, you do not have to prove to anybody anything, but your your insight uh matters and your kindness matters, and the things you have to contribute to this world matters, both virtually and IRL. So, um, guys, thank you so very much for this conversation. This is I've been wanting to get back into this. Um life has been super crazy, and this was just a really refreshing way to get back into the the waters of content and things like that, and I've been wanting to have this conversation since uh Sam's huge you know women's month uh collab, which was incredible. I don't know if you saw that, Hula, but there was how many 16 different female streamers, I think.

SPEAKER_00 1:56:50

Oh my god, I think it was closer to 20. Yeah, there was a lot. We raised so much money to give to the winners. Like we had I was lurking a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 1:56:59

Yeah, it was so much fun. It was so much fun, and I I love that. There's there's things that we could say all day, but just to finish this conversation off strong, I just want to thank everybody for being here. Um, make sure that you know you guys are continuing to share more about what your stories are like. Uh, please follow all of my friends. Um, they are here for a reason. There are many, many incredible women that uh I've had the privilege of knowing. But yeah, these guys are are real ones and they're awesome and they're willing to have a conversation about just anything in game or out of games. I hope you enjoyed this very session. If you'd like to join us live, follow me on Twitch and add to future conversations. Talk soon. Thanks again for all your support.