IM Director Clint Morgan

A deep dive into the life, calling, and missionary service of IM General Director Clint Morgan

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hello and welcome to the Unity Community Podcast. This is a place where our church family can hear real stories of life change and discover how God is working through our ministries and missionaries, both here and around the world. From conversations with our staff and leaders to testimonies from our people, we're pulling back the curtain on what God is doing in and through Unity Church. Thanks for listening. Let's grow closer to the Lord as we grow closer one to another.

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Welcome, I'm your host, Tim DeCreasie. Thanks for taking a moment to listen. Today we're stepping back to look at the bigger picture of missions. Not just one field or one missionary family, but the broader vision of how the gospel is being carried to the nations through the denomination. Joining us today is Clint Morgan, who serves as the Director of Foreign Missions for the Free Will Baptist Denomination. Before stepping into that leadership role, he spent years serving as a missionary to Africa, which gives him a unique perspective on both the calling to missions and the global work happening today. So today we'll talk about his journey into missions, what we learned on the field, and the vision for how God is continuing to use Free Will Baptist missions to reach people around the world. So welcome, Clint. Thank you. Glad to be here. Very excited. I know I'm excited. I'm all about some missions. And I want to kind of start with you may not even remember this. When I first got saved, and Terry and I started coming to Unity, I'd already had a pull for I want to go to Africa. And I thought maybe that'd be the Peace Corps. It would have been when I was in the Air Force, you know, but I wanted to go to Africa. So when I got saved, you would come to do this Saturday missions thing. I don't know, whatever. I was excited. I was new, new uh Christian. So I wanted to hear about this. And you stood up and said, Hi, my name's Clint Morgan. I'm a missionary to Africa. And I went, that's how I'm gonna get to Africa. I'm gonna be a missionary. And from that point on, I was sold on missions. Like I just want to do it. Wow. So um I'm so excited to be able to sit down with you and talk. So, but nobody wants to hear from me, so I'm gonna just turn it over to you and you just tell us a little bit about your background and how your faith journey began.

SPEAKER_02 2:29

Okay. I'll just start off. Uh I was born and raised in North Carolina, actually, born in Wolzman, North Carolina. And uh my mom and dad, uh, my dad got saved when I was eight years old. I got saved uh right shortly after that. But up to that point, um, you know, after he accepted the Lord, it just transformed and changed our whole family. But I got saved at a it was a a revival and a little church in Marlborough, Free Will Baptist Church. And and uh Bobby Jackson, that's a name that a lot of people know. Bobby Jackson was preaching, and you know, if you've ever heard him preach, you understand the power of that. And God just really spoke to my heart. And I accepted, I was eight years old. I remember this is one thing I remember about that, and I don't know how it stuck in my head so strongly. But after that, I went home and my dad asked me about the decision I made. And I said, I, you know, I accepted Jesus into my heart. And he said, uh, what will you say if someone asks you, how do you know you're saved? And you know, of course, eight years old, not profound at all. And we talked a little bit, and he said, just always remember John 3, 16. And, you know, and you know, God so loved the world, and we know it very well. And that just stuck with me. I mean, and everybody knows that particular verse, but I remember my dad giving it to me when I was eight years old and repeating it over and over again. Uh, so it it was uh before before he was saved, he lived, you know, sinner's life for sure. But once he was transformed, I mean he was really transformed. They were church planters. My dad was a church planter, planted several churches in North Carolina, um, and always an example. He was that in so many ways. I I honor my dad and my mom. I always like to say my mom and dad were church planters because my mother was highly involved in every uh church plant that he did. But just I could tell you multiple ways he was an example for us. And I'll just share this one because I think it was impactful to me. And that was that he um he I'd never heard my mom nor and my dad ever say anything negative about anyone in the church. That was, you know, I look back on it now, you know, and I thought uh I didn't grasp how significant that was until now, later in life, and you start hearing people and seeing the way people interact and stuff, and you go, wow, that's pretty impressive. We knew there were things going on, especially when we were teenagers, but you know, there was uh and I said later, I talked to dad about it and told him I appreciated I'm not telling him. I said, But dad, I do want you to know we knew things were going on. He said, I know you knew, but you you didn't get it from me. You know, you you did not need to hear church gossip from me and your mom. And I said, Amen to that. So great example. Uh loved what my what my dad didn't, and I will say, uh, people say I built a church, my dad built two churches, and I'm talking about built them, the buildings, you know. And that's where I think I learned a strong work ethic, you know. He didn't put up with laziness, you know. So I learned to work hard and work long hours, and it all of that comes into making you who you are. But the example they set as Christians and as pastor and leader um was uh very, very honorable for me. So that's how I came to know the Lord.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

Um yeah. Well, that's um they definitely had a strong influence. When did you start feeling like um sensing God might use your life beyond just the local context?

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah, I I will say when from the time I was accepted Christ as eight and and I'm gonna put an interesting block in this until I was 15 years old. I think I would I consider myself a very serious Christian. Interestingly enough, I was a summer camp. I was 15 years old. Um, that I uh really felt called to go to Africa. A lady was speaking, some people will know this name, some don't. Uh, mom Willie, one of our pioneer missionaries to Cuba, and she spoke. She just showed up. I don't even think she was on the schedule, but she was a powerful speaker. And we all, you know, we jokingly say, if mom Willie's speaking, you answer the call to something. Uh, you know, she was powerful. And but I know beyond what any doubt that God spoke to me and gave me a very clear uh call to Africa. And may I interject here, Tim? I think it's uh important sometimes for us to understand. Uh, I believe God speaks to us in the way he made us. Some of us are emotionally driven, some more intellectually driven, some more practically driven. I would, you know, I don't know if I would have considered real call if I'd not had an emotional upheaval, but that's me. And there are others who they reason out, they look at the needs and they say, Hey, I, you know, uh, this makes sense. I will do it. And then you might know the name Robert West. I don't know if you remember him at all, was a missionary also at Ivory Coast. He accused me, and I say that laughingly, you know, jokingly, he accused me of calling him Domissions, and you know, because we were playing golf one day. And he said, Is there a place for a person like me on the mission field? I said, What do you do? He said, I fix things. And I said, Yes, absolutely, there is a place. And it was at the hospital that, you know, in Africa that that our family worked at. And he came and he served and he served really faithfully there. So it to him, it was a job that could be done, and he just did it. So I I really say that as an encouragement to people who are seeking to know God's will. Know that God's going to speak to you as you are. You don't have to have my experience, you don't have to have anyone else's experience. What's but listening to his voice is very, very is what is uh in you know very important to that. And and as I think about moving from that stage, interestingly enough, the next my next couple of years in high school were some of the worst years of my life. I just uh it's like Satan reached down and just sort of grabbed a hold of me and threw me off in another spin. Came time to go to college. And you you can tell me when I'm saying giving too much information, but you know, uh, you know, but uh and I remember going into my dad, and by then I was doing things that shouldn't be, and wasn't not interested in going to college anymore. Uh, not not to Bible college anyway. So I go and tell my dad. He was very strict but very kind. But I went and told my dad, I said, I think I want to go to Appalachian State. And if you're from North Carolina, you know what Appalachian State's known for. Great teachers' college, but also a great party school. So that's why I want to go there. And my dad gave me one second of joy. He said, You can go anywhere you want. And I go, Yes. And then he said, But you will go to Free Will Baptist Bible College one year. And I go, mm-hmm. And my seriously, and my thought was, hey, and I say this respectfully, it doesn't sound respectful, but it is, I, you know, I'd sort of put up with the strictness of home. I thought Bible college, I was not gonna have a problem there. And to make a very, very, very long story short, I go to Bible college and you know, I was I was living a hypocritical life, I'm not gonna lie about it. And I I met a girl the first my first year who happened to be a missionary kid from Africa. Her mom and dad were missionaries to Africa, Doctor and Miss Laverne Miley. And I, you know, I was not the best for her, but she certainly was the best for me. And I didn't know that along the way. And we freshman year, sophomore year, uh, long story short, uh, you know, got engaged and she broke off the engagement. And I went back my junior year just to be with her. I it wasn't like I'm going to go seek God's will. And how God uses those things is beyond me, beyond me. But he used that relationship to keep me at that school until my junior year. And I'm telling you, uh, Tim, that year we had a campus revival, and me along with the others, and I think you could get them to verify Jerry Gibbs, Dennis Teague, names that you probably know, and some people know, it was a life-changing moment for us. And I remember just that I am no longer going to live be a hypocrite. I am all in. And I don't I can say I haven't looked back, never regret it. And I knew then, although Lynette and I were broken up, my little African girlfriend, you know, as I like to call her, we were broken up. But I said, God, you call me to Africa. I am going to Africa with or without her. And I needed that moment, if you understand what I'm saying. I needed that moment. I needed that return to that commitment to the call. And God used it and then he brought our lives back together. And we went and served 30 years in Africa together as missionaries. So that was part of that. I hope that makes, you know, process of God bringing me. And then God brought people into my life along the way that uh I've asked a question uh to our office staff one day. If you could build your own Mount Rushmore, if you could carve your own Mount Rushmore, who would be on it? And the ones that I put on mine were my father-in-law, Dr. Laverne Miley, Eddie Payne, former missionary to Ivory Coast, Dan Cronk, former missionary to India, Laura Bell Barnard, first Free Will Baptist missionary, and how they impacted my life. All of them are deceased, by the way. These are my all my role models are deceased. But those are the people that God brought into my life during those years. And once I committed to recommitted, I want to say that, to following him, the impact they had on my life is enormous. I can't even tell you the impact they had. And that that has really influenced me even in the way I do ministry and do things today, because I love, love, love spending time with college kids and just and you know, hoping being able to spend some time with them, hoping to weave uh a little bit into them. And I I I I I some people probably don't agree, but I don't like to say pour myself in anyone because I don't have anything to pour in. And what I like to think of us walking that disciple life together, can we walk together, learn together, grow together? And hopefully I have more years and more experience, which I know is a fact. But there's so much you can learn from young people, you know, and learn from one another if we we are willing uh to do that. But I uh yeah, that's a lot said, but I love that transition, how God took me from that 15-year-old boy committed to a rebellious young man to full commitment to him, and then brings people into your life as you say, I'm pursuing your will. What what do you want me to do? And he says, Well, talk to Larbell and talk to Dan Cronk, and you know, these people speak into your life and help make you um just give you perspective that you you really need. So I thank God for those moments. Yes, I do.

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah, that's that's also I don't know that I knew all of that, um, but that is definitely one of the ways God works. You talked about your junior year at the Bible college being that moment, and can you kind of expand a little bit on how that opened the door to you turning your life over to missions? Sure.

SPEAKER_02 14:13

Uh and like I said, if you go back to that fifty when I was 15 and I really felt like I answered the call, and then that time, and this was one of those crazy times in my life because and and I say this almost as an exhortation to myself and to others. There were many people who heard me say I felt called to missions. And when I'm drifting away, and then I said, I'm gonna go, you know, off the Appalachian State and I'm gonna be a missionary to high school kids. No one challenged me. No one said, Oh, I thought you were going to Africa, you know, and God kept me through Lynette, and it really was that relationship with her there. And I think the the whole point of what happened there was there is a decision we make. And I I think there was a time in my life I was there, I wasn't mature enough to grab grasp the significance of it, and that is being resolved to live in obedience to the Holy Spirit every day of your life. And I would love to say every minute, every day, but we all know how we are as humans, right? But it was that moment that I think I came to the reality, and I this is how clear it was to me. You're gonna you're gonna walk away, you're gonna walk out of this auditorium, you know, this meeting, and you're going to leave the school and you're gonna live life the way you want to live. Or you're gonna follow the path that God has for you. And it's such a it's such a dynamic difference in the way we feel, think, and process life, is if you say, and I mean, that again, I'm not trying to tell you that I've been perfect in this, this is not what I'm saying. But when you do, there is that power of the Holy Spirit that just says, Are you are you listening? You said you're gonna walk. You said you were gonna obey me. And you know, it's just sort of like a little nudge in your in your heart and says, Are you obeying? Are you showing, you know, are you living in obedience? Do you really think that's the obedient? And and I love it. I mean, I can say I it's almost the the thing that I have prayed for, and I pray for our students at Welch right now and our other colleges and all Christian young people, that they would come to that point where it's their passion to live in obedience to him. And I think that I would call that the the turning the dial, just saying I'm from following myself and pretending, and boy, there are a lot of hypocrites out there, and especially at Christian colleges, a lot of them. And they are right where I was, and you just want and you know, reach up there. You want to reach out there and play the Holy Spirit and turn that knob for them. But it is truly a decision we made, but it was dynamic for me. I wouldn't, you know, I'm not gonna say that was some people probably say, well, you just got saved. No, I think I was really born again. I just think I had not made that crucial decision to say obedience to him, walk. And life has not been easy, dude. I mean, it's no, no, no, no, no, no. That's that's another thing. It's not, you know, the prosperity gospel is in the world. It has been we've had some tough moments, but uh I love walking with him. I love walking with the spirit, and I think he loves me walking with him too, but you know, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_01 17:30

Well, this is where we could really um get off the well, we're not gonna, you know, get off the road here, but we could dive down deep because I know you have so many stories, um, but I want to talk about your time in Africa. Um and, you know, what did you being a missionary in Africa teach you about just global missions or how did God transform your life as you were sitting there in Africa serving, you know, serving him?

SPEAKER_02 18:00

Yeah, I you know, a couple of uh key lessons that I would say, you know, take away from the field, some of them are very practical and others I think are more profound. And I would say on a practical level, I did not see myself as a disciplined person nor a patient person. And I will tell you, to survive on the mission field, you better be disciplined and you better be patient. And I I again I think that's part of walking with the spirit and letting him guide you, you know, because there are plenty of things that will test your discipline. Uh, you know, I'm and I'm talking about commitment to the task that he's given us to do. You on the mission field, and especially there in Africa, no one's there watching me day in and day out. The the people we were serving, the wonderful uh African people, they didn't know what we were supposed to be doing. You know, they didn't have any parameters to say, oh, I don't think he's really doing a good job as a missionary, you know. They didn't have that. And there are a gazillion things to test your patience, honestly. It felt like, you know, the from the roads to the food to the you know, life and and and there were just a ton of those things. So I think those are two very practical things, you know, learning better discipline. I mean, getting up in the morning and saying, God has called me here to do a job, go, and I hate to call it a job, but to do a ministry, to do be about that task. And and I really felt like I worked hard at it. And, you know, I don't want to ever anyone to question whether I was uh doing my job, doing my ministry as a missionary. I don't want them to say, I don't know what he does out there. I, you know, every day I want to be able to say, you know, this is what it was about. Uh and then that uh idea of patience that continued growth along the way. But then on the ministry side and the spiritual side, I believed in the devil, I believe in Satan, I believed in demons before I went there. But man, you're talking about a wide open um uh you know, the the the scriptural comparison of darkness and light uh is really, really evident in that context. Now, some people have more sentiment about it. And then, you know, and I'm not I'm I don't know where I was, somewhere between feeling it and knowing it, you know, and letting those two balance to each other. But I mean, I know that they the majority of the people there were not Christian, vast majority, not believers. Uh, the vast majority were animists, worshipped idols. So, you know, the evidence there, the the empirical evidence is these are non-Christian people. So that much is there. But then you have that whole spiritual realm that you're dealing with, you know, seeing seeing seeing demon power manifested, uh, you know, in ways that just boggle our minds, and seeing demon-possessed people and knowing the oppression of demonic powers and the the spiritual warfare that was going on daily, you know. Um my son was military, served 26 years in military, and he talked about it, and I'm I'm not a military person, so I don't want to speak out of school here, but talked about FOBs, the Ford operating bases, and they'd be out, you know, in the middle of nowhere, and talked about the, you know, when you're out in the field, you know, and you come back into the FOB, there's where you find your Ford operating base. That's where you find your hot mill and the good bed. And, you know, you can be it, you could be attacked in the FOB, but it's much more fortified. And he said, when you went out of that gate, you were back on the battle. Battlefield. You were back out on the battlefield. You may not be engaged in, you know, bullets flying by your head and bombs going off around you, but you were on the battlefield. And at any moment you were totally, you know, exposed and possibly fall into ambushes and all the other things like that. And I really felt like that painted a picture of what I felt there is that, you know, my home wasn't the safe place, but it was my fob. The church was the fob, you know. But anytime you walk out of there, you just say, okay, you know, we're back on the battlefield. And how is it going to come to us? We didn't know. So I think the realities of spiritual power. You know, I love the way our African brothers and sisters would say it. The um uh, you know, Satan is mighty, but God is almighty. I love that. And you, you, as people came to know Christ, then their lives would be radically changed and they would burn their ideals and lead that way, and you see this radically changed life. You know, I think that was another thing. Understanding that spiritual warfare, but seeing someone really leave that darkness and come into light, that was pretty significant, you know. Um, we uh yeah, there there's you just had this is a big one for me all the way around. Uh so I'd rather you ask me questions and I'll try not to go on too long about anything, but uh it was really, really spiritually an unbelievable experience, I think, in many ways.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

Okay. Well, I do have a couple questions about that, but I want to back up a little bit when you talked about, you know, uh being on the mission field taught you discipline, patience. Um, from an American perspective, you know, we're sending missionaries out. Um we live in a result-oriented society, you know, as far as America is concerned. What we're paying this, what are we getting back? You know, so when missionaries come back and they say, we're serving in a country like Japan, less than zero one percent are Christians. We had one person convert this year. We sent all this money to have one person be converted. You know, uh is that how you all view that patience and discipline? Like, look, we we have to change a whole mindset of a culture.

SPEAKER_02 24:26

Yeah, let me let me give two, I think, two illustrations, I think will respond to that. I have dear pastor friend, and uh for uh several years their church did not support any of our missionaries, and that that's significant but insignificant in this particular thought. And he said, I want to support an I am missionary, and I sort of knew where he was going to go. I said, Okay, what what are you looking for? He said, You know, a missionary that's really doing it. And I said, Okay, what do you mean by that? And I knew what pretty much what he was going to say. He said, You know, someone who's winning people and you know, planting churches. And I said, You wouldn't want to support me then. And he goes, Yes, I would. I said, No, you wouldn't. He said, Why do you say that? I said, We were in France after we left Ivory Coast, we're in France three and a half years, focusing on Muslim, North African Muslim, you know, coming in. I said, we were there three and a half years. You know how many converts we had? One. And it wasn't even a Muslim, it was a French person. And I said, here's the thing about it, and I hope we understand this. When I went to uh when we moved into Aix-en-Provence in France and started the ministry among Muslims, I said, we did not know one Muslim person, not one. By the time we left, three and a half years later, and we left earlier than we hoped because of health issues with my wife, but I said three and a half years later, there were 32 Muslim people that we knew personally, and we were seeing them every week in a class or at a cafe or in their home or at a restaurant or in our home. And I said, and I want to tell you, every opportunity we got to say and speak for Christ and share the word, we did it. I said, So are you gonna judge me on the fact that I didn't see converts or on the fact that I'm faithful? And I think God has called us to be faithful to do that. And there's one more illustration I think just so well defines this. And that is uh Neil Gill, and a lot of people know Neil, Uncle Neil, as we like to call him, talked to a missionary friend, uh friend of ours who worked up in Mali. Um, that's up in Timbuktu. That really there is a place, you know. You say, I'm gonna slap you to Timbuktu. There is a place called Timbuktu. And but he worked up there for 25 years, and Neil asked him about, you know, how many converts he had working among the Muslim people. And, you know, he talked about how difficult it was that it was hot up there, and they were rejected and they would be spit on when they literally when they would go and preach the gospel. And you know, it's 115 degrees up there, you know, and he talked about all those things, and Neil kept going back, but how many converts, Uncle Frank, was his name? How many converts? And then Frank finally stopped and he held up five fingers, you know, his one hand, he said, maybe five. He said, 25 years, five converts. Was it worth it? And Frank gave the best answer you can imagine. He said, I don't know. Ask them.

SPEAKER_01 27:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:29

And great, and then you go ten years later, 15 years later, and there's 250 believers because someone was faithful to the five. Now, that's not going to happen in other places. There's to be there are going to be those over there that are going to, man, they're going to hit it. I and I said this and I mean this honestly. I said, if if in Africa, the difference between Africa and Europe for me, ministry-wise, Africa was difficult to live, easy to minister. We could have literally had millions of decisions for Christ, but that's not what we were looking for. We want to see people truly converted, you know, lives transformed. That's what you want. But we, I mean, I think it was a, I would consider it a fruitful ministry. You know, then you go back to France or Spain or Japan or, you know, somewhere like that, and faithfulness, and that's what I want to hear. So, you know, that patience, you ask that question, I'll go back to that. Yes, that patience. Do you have that patience? And uh, you don't want to be driven by numbers. You don't want to be driven by that. If that's your measurement for success, some people will fail miserably. But if you go by faithfulness also, uh, some people will fail miserably. You know what I'm saying? So going to that point of understanding, there it's different. And I that's one thing I would say if we could get pastors and people to please understand, some places are very fertile and they're going to give fruit quickly. There are other places that are very difficult, but we should never use the the fact that it's difficult as an excuse for not being faithful. I don't know if that's too much of an answer or if that's where you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 29:10

No, that's that's where I was that's where I was going. I want um, you know, that faithfulness on the field as you're going, because ultimately we know the Bible teaches us this, you know, some water, some sow, but it's God who gives the increase. So if you're being faithful, watering, you know, putting the seeds out there, that's what you can do, you know.

SPEAKER_02 29:30

So in some yeah, I tell our missionaries that in the difficult places, I said, talk about the people that you're talking to. Tell those stories. If it takes five years, you know, people want to know that you are doing what you're sent to do, and that is share the gospel with the lost people. And some there are some who are good at big crowds, and there are others who aren't. You know, and there are those who are very good one-on-one, and there are those who aren't. So knowing your giftedness and understanding that and allowing, you know, just walking with the spirit and letting him say, okay, well, you you're, you know, you've got this personality temperament that God's given you. You're very open. Get out there and meet people, talk to them. You have this more conservative, uh not conservative, more reserved way. Find some close friends, pour deeply, you know, give deeply, you know. And I think God totally uses us the way, exactly the way He made us, with the giftedness that He He's not asking us to do things He's not prepared us to do for sure.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

For sure.

unknown 30:35

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

So that goes to the you know, the discipline and the patience side of what you were talking about. I want to get more into that later on. But for right now, then you talked about in Africa, you know, just the spiritual darkness that was there. And I know you and I have had this conversation before, you know, it you know, for ET. Um like let's talk about you have a new convert, and because this isn't the way necessarily American Christians view life in this way. So I remember you telling a story about the the lizard in the grain bin.

SPEAKER_02 31:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

So um, I'd like to our listeners to hear kind of how you work through a new believer in as a role of a missionary, kind of pastoring them and growing them spiritually.

SPEAKER_02 31:27

Yeah. I I am really pretty glad you asked that question. I do like this story, and I'm glad you remember it. But it was a uh a market day ministry. We, you know, if you don't mind throwing in one little principle of mission, and that is you either go where people gather or you create a situation for them to gather. And marketplace in Africa was the gathering place. So that was one of our primary ministries was going to market and preaching. One of the people who got converted was a man named Kifate. He was a witch doctor, very powerful witch doctor. And you know, he got converted. And a couple of things that, as they're growing in their faith and understanding what it means, they're going to want to burn their idols. And when we burned his idols, it was just a massive amount because he was so powerful, you know, and he had idols, little bitty things, some big, you know, like in his yard to protect him against scorpions and snakes and wild dogs and thieves, and then, you know, one in his kitchen, his wife's kitchen to keep her from poisoning him, and one from him keeping keeping him from poisoning her. You know, they had all these things, just a big stack of them, and we burned them, we we crushed them, then we buried them. And that's very symbolic of being dead to that old way of life and now following Christ. And the story you're talking about. And he asked me, you know, okay, he said, I want to obey God's laws. How do I obey? You know, what are God's laws? Well, I had my Bible with me, and I said, This is God's laws. And, you know, his he got a little downhearted about that. He said, I really can't read. And, you know, as I think about that as a Christian and in the perspective of missions, what can we think about what I've just said? What can we do to help him? And that was a that's not a good question, by the way. Um, you know, uh, because it then it becomes all about us. And I'm I'm I'm I'm confessing here because that's what I'm thinking teach and read, Bible studies, blah, blah, blah, you know, and all the good things we could think of. But then, I mean, again, that Holy Spirit working there just like, how about me? And it's almost like that question came to my mind, and that was it. And so I say to this guy, you used to have Satan's spirit living in you. Now you have God's spirit living in you. God's spirit knows God's laws better than I do. You go and you live your Christian life, and if you because they have so many things that in their world I've I have not a clue about, but God's spirit does. And I know that and I believe that. And so I said, you go live your Christian life. And now, in in the Lobi language, the Lobi people were the tribal people we work with up in the northeast corner, very, very primitive people, really. And uh, you know, um, you know, this whole world spins around those idols. So he no longer has them. But one of them, they have some interesting expressions too, which is interesting discussion for later on about contextualization. But for them, the heart is not the center like the liver is. And so, and they almost flip hot and cold because if we say someone is warm-hearted, they're good. You know, if they're cold hearted, they're bad. For them, they don't talk about the heart, they're talking about the liver. But a cold liver is good and a hot liver is bad. So, you know, and so and and I explained that, you know, I just said to him, so if you you do something and you have a hot liver, you send and I'll come down and we talk about it. A couple of weeks later, you know, you send someone up. I went down, went through all the greetings, all the good stuff. And I said, So you have a question? He said, Yeah. And the question was, is it okay for a Christian to have a chameleon in the grain bin? And for us in an American mindset, that means nothing. And one thing I do believe that really helps me, and I I really count on the Holy Spirit to direct and help me in this, and that is asking questions. I don't have to have all the answers. I I want to depend on him to give us all the answers. You know, and this is what happened that day. And so uh I said, these were the questions I asked. He said, uh, I said, uh, what does that mean? Have a chameleon in your grain bin? He said, Well, if you have a chameleon in your grain bin, she lays eggs, you're gonna have a good crop. Do you believe that? I asked him, he said, Yes, I believe it. That's all he'd heard all of his life. And then I'm thinking, you know, as a missionary, uh, you know, how did it get there? Well, the spirits put it there. He didn't put it there, the spirits put it there. So now you've got to deal with that spirit world again. And, you know, I'm thinking, okay, how do we go through this? And again, I just want to say, I believe God's spirit just helped us navigate that kind because I could have said very easily as a missionary, and we'll stop at this point and say, very easily as a missionary, that's ridiculous. That's a superstition, take that out. It's attached to the spirit world, don't do that anymore. I don't feel that that is a good process. So I, you know, and ask him, I said, okay, T Fight, who gives you life? God does. Who makes sunshine? God does. Who makes their I'm giving it to you rapid fire, you know, because we discussed in between. Who gives makes a rainfall? God does. You know, who gave you strength to go to your field? God did. Who gave you strength to harvest your field? God did. Who gave you strength to build your grain being? God did. I said, What's the answer to all your questions? God. So what does the chameleon have to do with it? I never told him to take it out.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Right.

SPEAKER_02 36:51

Never. But he and you know, I'll give you the whole story, but he did take it out. And then you know you have to ask the question, well, did he have a good crop? Yeah, he had a good crop. But I think part of that discussion, too, was very important because I asked him, I call him the 1 Corinthians 8 and 10 questions. I said, T Fite, if your unbelieving friends find out that here that you have a chameleon in your grain bin and you leave it in there, what are they going to think? He said, Oh, they're going to think I believe that way. Still believe in the you know, in the fetish way in the idols, spirit world. I said, Do you want them to, do you want them to think that about you? He goes, No. And if a Christian hears that, what are they going to think? He said, they're going to think the same thing. Now, if you can go to the scenario, and this is what I think makes a big difference in this time, is if one of his friends came to you, hey, I, you know, he'd be all excited, hey, T Vite, heard you had a communion in the grain band. Yeah, but took it out. Why? Because the missionary told me to. That's one answer. But if he comes, take the same scenario. Non-Christian, hey, heard you had a communion grain band. Yeah, took it out. Why? Well, God gives me life, God gives the sun, God makes the rain, God gave me strength. You know, now he's able to bear witness of why the transition that took place in his life. And his focus is no longer on that spirit world, his focus is on God who gives him life and strength and rain and sun and all those other things. So, you know, and then for me personally, and this is why I say I really believe this, that we learn together. And uh when he uh a couple of weeks later, I'm out in the village and I'm teaching, you know, I'm talking about sin. Uh, these are Christians, and I say, some of you may have a hidden sin, like you might have a chameleon in your grain bin. And see, up to that point, I'd never heard of that. But now, because I was taught by him being taught and we learning together, you know, that's what I say. We're walking this road together, and it was such a great thing. But it was so funny because I'm sitting there and I use that illustration, and some guy, you know, in the African way, they go, which is their like what? You know, it'd be really, really surprised. And then he said, How did a white man learn something like that? And I was able to tell him the story. And I said, God's spirit teaches us, God's spirit for us as believers, he lives in us and he gives us a hot liver if we're not doing the right things and everyone, you know, and then you invite these others by telling the same story. Now you're inviting others to do the same thing, to allow the Holy Spirit to to work in their lives. Thank you for asking. I love that story. I mean, I really I love telling because I just think it's I learned so much through that. Just yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:32

I want to, you know, and maybe this is part of the same story, I don't quite remember, but um, you know, in America, we don't necessarily see God work in these amazing ways. So, like there's the you know, we know the story of Elijah, fire coming down from heaven. Yep, you know, we know that story, that's a Bible story, but that doesn't happen today, which I offer that up to you to say, I know you have a different answer to me saying, Well, that doesn't happen today. And maybe that goes along with you know, burning those idols because you have a very similar story. Yeah. I'm hoping you would share.

SPEAKER_02 40:10

And I think Tifate, that whole story is one of those stories where you just think, you know, it's gonna, and and I asked when I even when I tell that story, sometimes I will ask students or whoever, do you believe God gave him a good crop? I think it's an important question. And I said, Yes. And I actually used what you just say, and I said, the answer is yes. And when you go and and I said, I know it's not like Elijah and the prophets of Bell, but when you put the prophets of Bell up against the prophets of God, you better know who's going to win. You know what I'm saying? Um, you know, and uh there just seeing God's power manifested in in those ways is so striking. I'll give you one so simple, it does it won't even be impressive in the American mindset. It will not, but in the African mind, it was amazing. I'm riding my boat motorbike, I'm going up to a village to do uh a school evangelism. But so I'm I'm riding my motorbike up there. I have my backpack on the back of my motorbike, and the roads are really bumpy. And when I get to the school, the the backpack is gone. Okay. And I turn around, go back to look for it, can't find it, can't find it, can't find it. So, and I have money in there for my own, but I also have money for the other missionaries because after I go up there, I was going to go to the city 50 miles away, which is a joke. Okay. But I was going to go get some supplies for our other missionaries, uh, not on my motorbike, but but now I've lost their money, my money, my passport, everything I've got. And I go back up to the station. We have the hospital, and I told the hospital workers that it was, you know, uh, I lost my thing. And my feeling is that it's gone. And, you know, people said it will never, you'll never see that bag again because you had money and no one wants to be found with that money. And it was a moment, honestly. So I asked several of the staff of the hospital that I think were strong in their faith. I said, let's just ask God to bring that bag back. And I promise you, we're standing there in a circle, uh, praying and asking God to bring that money back. And three guys rode up on their bicycles, sweating like bullets, you know, and they said, and they held up the bag. They said, We found this on the road. And I'm telling you, uh the the effect that it had on those people there praying that day was enormous. Now, like I said, you know, that sounds like the right thing to do in in our world, but in their world, you find$100 in a bag or$200 in a bag, you're not going to bring it back. You're going to take it, throw everything in the bush, you're going to keep on going. But and I know it's that's why I said it sounds simple, but for them, they would tell that story afterwards. That's when we were standing there praying, and these guys bring this money back. And everybody, whoa, you know, it's just like, wow. And you know, it was a thing that God did, and we know that. And uh, yeah, I I don't know if that's too simple, but it really was, I remember that as an impactful moment for a lot of our Christians. And there were other times in the spirit world where you know there were curses put on us. I one time I loved uh those. This is another uh question we can ask later about contextualization, but we like to talk about quiet time, reading your Bible, praying. I said, How do you do that in an uh in a non-literate world? That they cannot read, you know. So that's just another question. But I was talking to a young guy one day who was literate, and we were sitting there and uh I was taught them the importance of you know prayer and reading your word and studying and letting God's spirit direct you and understand like that. And I said, sometimes it's very exciting, sometimes it's not. And I said, like for the last two weeks, Madame and I, that would be my wife, and everybody, you know, just called it Madame. And uh my wife and I've been just fell like that. Our prayers aren't getting them outside the room. And here's this African guy sitting by me, you know, a good, solid Christian young man. And he he says, I know why. And I go, okay, buddy, you know, help me out here. And this again, I'm a great example of learning from one another. I mean, just the things. So I'm sitting there thinking, you know, that's just the normal process of sometimes it's great and sometimes, but you do it anyway because it's uh it's a life discipline as part of it. And but he goes, I know why. So he knows why we're not having effective feeling, the feeling and effect. I go, okay, well, tell me then. He said, You know the guy you fired two weeks ago from the hospital for committing adultery? I go, Yeah. He said, he went to one of the witch doctors here and put a curse on your family. I go, Wow. I mean, and I believe it 100%. The power of those spirits were very, we didn't, we didn't get sick, we didn't die, obviously. But and then he said, and what do you, you know, what do you do now? And I said, and it was a great teaching moment. I said, you know, we will fast and pray. That's what we'll do. And ask God, thank God for the victory. He's protected us because the guy really wanted to make us sick. I mean, he wasn't necessarily trying to kill us, but his I his thing was to make us sick. And, you know, that probably get us out of his hair and leave the country or whatever. But, you know, those are things, the moments where you just sometimes are so obvious to us, uh, but not so obvious either. And just taking those moments that God brings to you and learning from them is pretty significant. And I could I can tell you a lot of other stories. So you can chase this rabbit any way you want to go.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

Yeah, I mean, I think that goes back to, and I this is probably maybe something I had said the last time we talked about this is um, you know, we don't necessarily expect God to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we can ever ask or think. You know, we know that verse, but we don't. I don't I just makes me wonder how much do we actually believe it? Because we just don't see those things in America as we do hear stories like you're telling in other countries. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:18

Another interesting story. One of our pastors, this was couple just a couple of years ago, and he's up preaching at night, you know, on a on a Sunday night, and an owl flies into the into the church. Well, you know, people are, by the way, and that's another whole story, but they're afraid of owls. They think owls are bad omens. So this owl flies into the church and starts circling around the pastor's head and tries to attack him. You know, of course, he's shooting him off, and finally the owl flies back out. Uh, just a couple of weeks after that, a woman from his village up in the other country comes to stay with them, and she's really, really sick. They don't even know, they can't figure out what's wrong with her. And he tells the story, his wife is a super strong Christian, lovely woman, you know, and she actually would sleep on the floor with this woman and pray for her at night. And she got saved. I mean, really, you know, transformed her life. And she, in her testimony, said the the spirits had made her sick. And she asked the pastor, she said, Do you and they had not talked about it. She she said, Do you know the owl that came in and tried to attack you in the church that night? He said, Yes. She said, That was me. Transformed into an owl, you know, came to really to attack you. That, you know, we don't know those stories. We don't understand that. Uh, but then again, you see the transformation that God takes place, and then this, you know, confession and forgiveness and things that take place, and then her life is, you know, transformed because of that. But that world was there all the time. I mean, it was it was a constant. It was a constant. So it was you didn't you didn't it wasn't like you couldn't see light, but it was very dark.

SPEAKER_01 48:06

So you know, these are stories that happened to you, you saw with your own eyes. So it's I mean, I know you have probably a hundred other stories that we could just spend hours talking in. So what would be your advice to, or what is your advice to missionaries that are out there on the field right now that are dealing with things like that?

SPEAKER_02 48:30

I'd say number one, I mean, your personal walk is so extremely important. What is your personal relationship with God? And, you know, I I still, I mean, just in the last week, you know, reading through having quiet time and everything, there was something uh in the book of Romans and just realis realizing all that God has done for us and you know, just get so excited about it, you know. And I hope number one, I hope I never lose that enthusiasm. And uh, you know, but I would say number one is have, and I it's almost like you don't want to get in an animistic mindset. It's and this is what I'd say, you know, people sometimes present that uh quiet time in the morning. If you don't have it, something bad's gonna happen to you. You know, I don't believe that. I just believe you're going to have that every day because you have you desire it, you know. And I think that's a part of a strong discipline is you know, you're doing it uh the days that your bones hurt, you know, you still get up and walk, you know. And I would say that in the spiritual, you know, some days you just feel a little weak, but you still get up and walk. So those spiritual disciplines I think are extremely important. And learning, being willing to fast and pray. And, you know, I think that is, I think that's very important. And again, I don't want it to be like this ritual, I've got to do this. And but there's so much about that. And uh, you know, humbling yourself before God and those the verse talks about try me, oh Lord, you know, just going before Him and saying, Don't let me ever be. Can you can you think about how crushing it would be to know that your life is a stumbling block from someone becoming to know coming to know the Lord, or that your unwillingness to serve was or your uh yeah, there there's a lot of things we could say here, but just having that discipline, carefully guard your walk with the Lord. Find time to rest. You know, I I know and you know, I want to say be careful about this. You don't have to rest all the time, you know. You ought to be at the task every morning when you know you get up, it's it's you know, you prepare yourself for that day. A great example of this. We had the the girl I was talking about that was converted in France, and she went off to university, and you know, we had talked to her about her quiet time, getting up every day. And I called her one day, we were talking to her and asking her how she was going, and she said, Any sin you want to, any sin you want to commit is available right here in this university in this dorm. She said, I get up every morning and I spend 45 minutes to an hour reading and praying, and I still do not feel resource for the day. And I think it's a great question to ask us, you know, are do you feel resource for the day? You know, what what's ahead? You don't know. And if you, you know, if you're if you're not full and you're working hard, you're gonna go hungry and you're gonna get yourself in trouble. But if if you are walking in him and you've prepared for that day, I I have asked our missionaries, even you know, when we were on the team in France, I'd say, I want you to take every Thursday morning and I want you to be alone with God, refresh yourself, be alone with God. I'm not gonna ask you if you do it, I'm not gonna ask you anything about it. I'm just trusting you to say this is important. And when we we we would get together as a team on Thursday and we'd have lunch and we'd pray together, but not go back to the reference that morning because that is a personal discipline. But I would say go back to discipline and patience, but that personal discipline of quiet time resourcing, being walking in the spirit, you know, there there's enough happens around us that is normal life. And then when those big attacks come, you know, when the missiles start flying in, um, you know, nothing tests a person's commitment, like having their commitment tested. Does that make sense? Yeah. So uh I think that's a it's a big thing. But we have missionaries, I think. Right now it feels like, and this just being transparent, it feels like there's a big attack by Satan on our missionaries emotionally. Yeah, there's a lot of depression, a lot of uh those kind of things that are going on. And we're we're doing what we can, but and I don't think they're weak. God forbid that anyone think that I'm saying our missionaries are weak or you know, because uh we all went we all go through that. But I'm saying this is that fortification that's needed, that feeding on the word, the walking in the spirit, uh you know, it's a it's a constant, you know. You don't need to be on a crash diet here.

SPEAKER_01 53:34

You know, well, look, let's you you have shared so much. This is definitely gonna have to be a two-part podcast. So I think this is probably a good place to end as we've kind of talked about your experience as a missionary um and what you've seen out on the field before we transition into maybe what your vision is for missions and how we can that will be episode two. So let's just kind of let's just stop it right here and we will pick up um at a future um episode and we will go from there. So for today, I'll just say I appreciate you so much and all the work you're doing as a missionary, as a leader, as a um an example to so many people. Um, just thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 54:22

Well, thank you. And I hope, and if there's anything else you need to know, you know, want to ask for today, that's fine. But I'm certainly excited about doing part two and three if we need it. But whatever you feel like is good, let's do it. I'm with you. And I appreciate you doing this. Appreciate the this is a great opportunity. I always love, I think you know, I love to talk about missions, but so to have this opportunity, especially with the church like Unity, who is such a great support. Your pastor is on our board at one time, and then you guys, and you have missionaries and you have laymen also, don't you? You have lay people out of your church that go consistently. So I'm I'm privileged. I'm really privileged that you asked me. So thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

All right. Well, thank you. And until next time, we will um we will catch up with you. All right. Thank you. And thank you, listeners. And remember, as God is writing the story in your life, go and tell.

SPEAKER_00 55:18

Thanks so much for listening to the Unity Community Podcast. If today's conversation encouraged you, we'd love for you to take one or more next steps. Join us this Sunday morning for worship at 9 or 1030. Get connected to a life group andor find a place to serve. You can learn more about Unity and how to get plugged in by visiting the links in the show notes. So until next time, let's grow closer to the Lord as we grow closer one to another.