France – how safe are its reactors?

The Montel energy podcast – market insights from people in the know. In this week’s episode, we discuss the outlook for renewables in France and safety issues at its nuclear fleet. 

Hosts: 

• Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel. 

Guests: 

• Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien,
• Jean-Christophe Niel, Director General at IRSN,
• Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris,
• Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel. 

Transcript

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 0:04

Hello and welcome to the Montel Weekly podcast. I'm Richard Ferrison, editor-in-chief, uh, Europe at Monte. And today we're in Paris at our French Energy Day. The topics up for discussion are renewables. What France is doing to expand its green energy, but also we're looking at the nuclear and the place it has in the French energy mix and, uh, nuclear safety issues. Today is my great pleasure to be joined by Yara Chakhtoura, managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien. Ian uh, Yara Welcome to, to the Monte podcast. We're at the Monte Energy Day and we've heard a lot about, uh, France's ambitious plans to expand its renewable capacity. Could you tell us a little bit about that and how confident are you that these targets can be met?

Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien: 0:55

Well, thank you for having me first, uh, just, uh, one word about Vattenfall. So, Vattenfall is one of the leading energy provider in Europe, and, uh, we've been in France since 18 years now as supplier of electricity and gas, first for businesses and since, uh, late 2018 for customers as well. So France indeed has set an ambitious multi admiral energy plan, uh, for the next. Uh, five years up until 2028, which we salute in the sense that it does meet the 40% electricity, renewable electricity in the energy mix that France is targeting. Um, now one dark point we see in this multi annal energy plan at the moment. Is, uh, the lack of ambition when it comes to offshore wind targets? Sure. So from our perspective, offshore wind has proven that it is a competitive and a job creating, uh, industry. Um, so on the one hand, if we talk about competitiveness. We, for instance, at Vaan file have proven that competitiveness through several of our projects in 2016, we won the first project that was under 50 euro megawatt hour, uh, Danish in Denmark. And we've taken investment decision for this project late 2018. So we are proving that it is feasible.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 2:16

Absolutely Vattenfall a very big player in offshore wind. Uh, you've committed yourself to, to be carbon free within a generation. But what's, why is, why is France lagging behind here? What? What are the reasons?

Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien: 2:27

Well, first, the first project that we're launched in 2012 and 2014 were the very first project in France. And France has a huge. Potential when it comes to offshore wind, considering their sea facade and as well as the wind conditions here. Now, the first project, were in a regulatory framework that were not specifically adjusted to, uh, the development of offshore wind and those very long projects. So once you won, you couldn't actually change or easily change. The technical description of your project. Otherwise you had to update your permits and then you could again and again be subject to recourses and legal challenges, which drags along and keeps on dragging. Dragging on the projects

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 3:11

sounds very inflexible.

Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien: 3:13

It was. Now the government has made lots of simplifications. Mm-hmm. Over the past years. Uh, in particular, late last year, in 2018, they passed what we call the mm-hmm. So simplification law. Mm-hmm. Which enables now to set up a permit envelope exactly as we are experiencing in the uk. Mm-hmm. Uh, so you can, with that process, you can. Choose the final technology when the project is mature enough to do that, and you will choose the best technology for the development of the sites, both from an environmental standpoint, both from a competitive standpoint, so that you have the best projects in in the time.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 3:49

Mm-hmm. So I think there's a little bit of discussion today about PPAs and that that's a big part of, but, well, it's certainly a part of Rotten File's business in the Nordics, particularly in the Netherlands. In the uk. How about France? Why? Why, why are things not moving so fast here? In terms of PPAs?

Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien: 4:06

Well, in general, as the development of renewable energy continues to. Need for support mechanism decreases progressively, or the extent of that support decreases. Mm-hmm. Uh, now it's a bit, still a bit too soon to get out that support mechanism. Uh, otherwise we'll be sending a wrong signal to the market, uh, as we need to accompany the stabilization of that renewable market. You don't

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 4:31

wanna make, you don't wanna make retrospective changes to subsidies. Exactly. Yeah. Um,

Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien: 4:35

um, so. As of today, CFD mechanisms is a very good stab, revenue stabilization mechanism. Mm-hmm. That should continue to accompany that stabilization and corporate PPA is a complimentary mechanism that provide that revenue stabilization for, uh, renewable projects. Now in. It is developed, as you said, in the Nordics and the UK and Netherland. Uh, but that goes also without hard constraints on signing those ppa, especially having access to the full guarantees of origins of the projects in France, it's, we are still, and in Europe overall, we're still in a emerging market in France. Uh, you can't actually have access to a guarantee of origin as long as you are in a. Premium market, premium environments. So as the project get out progressively of those subsidy, uh, markets, then the market should definitely develop and we see initiatives starting right now. Just, it it, the burgeoning markets, it'll take a bit longer to develop here.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 5:33

It's at an early stage and it's a very early

Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien: 5:35

stage. Yeah.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 5:36

Then if we talk a little bit about. The hydro, um, the hydro concessions. I know al's name actually means water falling. So, um, so how the French hydro concessions, how is that developing in, in, in France? Uh, there, there was supposed to be a, a, potentially a, um. Uh, decision by the end of the year. Um, I know you're, you're more involved with the wind side, but if you could say anything about on, on what's happening in France with the hydro concessions.

Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien: 6:01

Well, for now, as you may already know, we were obviously part of that adventure in 2010 when the French government initially intended to open the concessions. At the moment, we are, we will just wait and see when, uh, the government will decide to make the move and we'll decide accordingly.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 6:17

Are there, I mean, France is a country. Very much dominated by, by nuclear, nuclear power. Are there any sort of barriers from that side in terms of boosting renewables? I mean, are there any, is, does that, the dependence on nuclear, does that prevent the country from potentially, you know, building more, more offshore or onshore wind? How, how do, how do you see it

Yara Chakhtoura, Managing Director at Vattenfall Eolien: 6:39

overall? The French government has sent a consistent signal, which was developing the renewable, uh, base over the years. Uh, balancing it out with obviously the overall budget to support that development. Uh, but consistently now with that new multi annal energy plant, we are targeting that 40% electricity from renewable sources by 2030, which is an excellent news. And the government is gonna update its energy policy to. So we will reach 50% nuclear down from 80% in 2035. So there is an equilibrium that is changing in that direction of developing the renewable market. The big question that we cannot answer today, and that the president has asked to the industry to reflect on is. What will happen next, and we're looking forward to knowing more. And you know, at the moment we actually cannot say, but what will happen after that? 50%?

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 7:36

Mm, absolutely. Thank you very much, Yara, for joining us on the Monte podcast. Thank you for having me. Thank you. Hello and welcome to the next part of the pot from the French, uh, energy Day here in Paris. It's my pleasure to have with me here, Chris Eels, my colleague from Montel, Jean-Christophe Niel from the IRSN, which if I'm correct, is the technical arm that advises the French Safety Authority to have that Absolutely correct. And Yves Marignac from, from Wise Paris, Jean-Christophe, by saying, what, what is your, what is your role? Can you explain a little bit about the work that you do in France?

Jean-Christophe Niel, Director General at IRSN: 8:14

So, IRSN is a public organization assessing the the nuclear risk. Yeah. So it means, uh, at the same time, uh, performing research mm-hmm. To understand more precise disease risk and, and giving, uh, advice based on technical opinion and expertise work to the safety authorities, which have to decide.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 8:36

Mm-hmm. So, so you are performing a very key role in ensuring that French nuclear plants are, are safe.

Jean-Christophe Niel, Director General at IRSN: 8:45

Uh, nuclear safety is a, is uh, technically and scientifically, uh, based. And there I sense is providing a technical and scientifical advice mm-hmm. On the, uh, project of, uh, the industry to, uh, give, uh, advice to the safety authority. Mm-hmm.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 9:02

And so we can be fairly sure that French nuclear plants are very safe.

Jean-Christophe Niel, Director General at IRSN: 9:07

If, uh, I send at any point, uh, showing that it is not safe, we, we would, uh, say it to the new Class Safety Authority and we will sell it publicly. Mm-hmm.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 9:16

Which you have done on, on several occasions and very recent, quite recently, you had an announcement on Tri Kastan. Is that correct? Could you talk us a little bit about your role there?

Jean-Christophe Niel, Director General at IRSN: 9:26

Last year, at the end of 2017, uh, ISL identified weaknesses in the dike surrounding the Tristan plant and recommended to the French nuclear safety that the plant, uh, be stopped and the dike ed to deal with, uh, the safety risk.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 9:46

Mm-hmm. And your, and that, that has now been resolved. That's perfectly, perfectly safe. Following

Jean-Christophe Niel, Director General at IRSN: 9:51

this, uh, uh, I sent as a requested, uh. You have to stop the reactor and to, uh, comfort the dike, which has been done then

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 9:58

to, to round off.'cause I know you are a very busy man and you have to be somewhere else. Um, what are the current issues that you are looking at some of the, the technical issues in the French nuclear fleet?

Jean-Christophe Niel, Director General at IRSN: 10:09

So the major issue we are working on at the present time is, uh, the, the licensing of EPR. Mm-hmm. The, uh, new Generation three reactor built by EDF in Ville. And, uh, we are also involved the assessment on, on the, on the conditions, uh, to, to, to allow the, the continuing operation of 900 megawatt reactors. Mm-hmm. We are also, uh, uh, involved in the issues, uh, uh, connected with waste management.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 10:42

John Christophe had had to leave us, uh, Yves. But, uh, thankfully, you're, you are here to sort of explain, uh, explain your position. How, how, how would you react to that in the discussion today in, in, uh, at the French Energy Day?

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 10:55

Well, um, I think first of all, first of all, I mean, there's a technical analysis done by, uh, institutional players like IRSN with. Who have, uh, a lot of man work to put, uh, in, in that kind of thing. Our, our position at We Paris is, uh, much more modest. We are, you know, trying to identify, uh, issues, critical issues and develop some, uh, analysis to challenge the institutional one on this. And, um, my concern is less with the, uh, kind of technical assessment that IRSN could provide in the system today than. On one hand with the loss of capacity of the operators to deliver on safety requirements and quality requirements, and on the other hand, regarding the, uh, loss of capacity of the safety authority mm-hmm. To impose. On operators to respect those requirements in due time. So

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 11:54

you don't think they have the teeth that, but that's a SN really, uh, there's a lack of power to, to enforce safety standards. I mean,

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 12:00

what, what, what we are seeing is an increasing level and increasing number of issues with non-compliance, quality of fabrication, loss of maintenance delays in. Starting some works in completing others. Mm-hmm. And that's partly because the operators are not behaving up to. The kind of requirements and the, the level of responsibility that that is there. And partly because a SN seems to lack the, means the power to impose a better behavior on the operators. So the

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 12:41

A SN is the Safety Authority and IRSN who just spoken to, they are just a technical artist, technical organization. So, so could you give some examples of this Eve?

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 12:50

Well, uh, uh, a very recent and, uh, significant example is the delay in completing the, uh, so-called, uh, ultimate Emergency Diesel Generators. Mm-hmm. That, uh, a SN, um, required EDF to install on each of its 58 reactors before the end of 2018. The system found out coming close to that deadline that. The, uh, generators would not be in place and a SN had no other option than accepting for, uh, the, for adfs demand to postpone installing the, those generators by two years. It's not direct threat in the sense that if we don't face the kind of very severe sales make situation, for instance, that would require. Those emergency system to be there. I mean, if we don't face that, there's no worries. But if that situation is happening and since Fukushima, it's a requirement that the plants are equipped to face that kind of situation. So this has been pushed, so it, it's two years delay in. Upgrading the plans up to that kind of requirement. Mm-hmm.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 14:09

So they, yeah. So it's, it's a delay of two years. Um, they sort of, because they weren't able to complete on time and that, that's been accepted by the safety authority.

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 14:18

Yeah. That's been accepted. The, the point is that everyone could see that coming.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 14:23

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 14:24

And there was no, no kind of backup in the system to. To prevent this situation from happening. Um, and that is just one example. The problem is that we have tens and even hundreds of situations of that kind. Not all of the same importance or as emblematic as the one with those diesel generators, but on almost any commitment that the operators would make to the authorities to, uh. Uh, develop studies or implement works by a certain deadline. Mm-hmm. Almost in every case, we found ourselves with delays and, uh, the, uh, authority being kind of forced to accept that.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 15:13

And, and Chris, do you think that, I mean, we talked a little bit today about, uh, potential for, you know, I mean the, the minister said today, or that not, she's not the minister, but she's the head of the engine department at the, at the, the French government. She talked about they were very confident. Virginia Schwar, vision Schwartz. Yeah. She said they were very confident that they would be able to close these reactors and that they'd be, and, and crucially extend all the others. Because as you've pointed out, Eve, it's about extending 44 reactors.

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 15:39

Yeah, well, the, the, to an average age of safety, the, the, the real point is whether the industry can face the challenge of extending the lifetime of so many reactors while upgrading their safety level, uh, up to the, uh, objective that a SN has set, which is coming as close as possible to the safety levels of. A new evolutionary reactor, like EPR. Mm-hmm. So that's a big challenge. And my analysis of the situation is that is actually not possible considering the level of, uh, of, uh, capacities, industrial and financial capacities, um, of, uh, the, uh, industries. So there's a huge risk that we find ourself with a situation where. Safety is challenge on one hand, and profitability of extension of life extension is challenge on on the other end. And of course, those objectives might be, uh, contradictory. Um, so there's a huge risk for the industry and the society ahead of us. And, uh, my, my feeling that EDF is, uh, is, is. I don't know the, the English word for that. Like, you know, uh, uh, pursuing, I mean, there, there's no other way than life extension starting new projects. Mm-hmm. As. I mean the only escape there. And um, I think it's also building, to be fair, they're building renewables, aren't they? They're building and then they're involved in that. They have a whole subsidy, but they can't, they can't do everything at the same time. I mean, the, the, the economic pressure is enormous. And, um, I mean, I really, I really think we are going ahead of a situation where the industry can't cope anymore. Very, very strong decision and changes might be made in the future. How do you

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 17:34

mean? How do you mean it can't cope to cope with that? How the industry can't cope anymore? I mean, what's, what's the consequence of that?

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 17:40

Well, the, the, the consequence is, might be both on the level of safety. Mm-hmm. Because, because the industrial, uh, and financial capacity is not there to deliver, uh, to the, uh, required level on one hand and, and on the, uh, economics. Of the, uh, electric system and the, uh, financial situation of EDF on the other end. Mm-hmm. It's, it's likely to be a mix mm-hmm. Of, of those two, uh, problems. And, um, I think that, I mean, the, the, the current situation where everyone pretends to believe that it could go on. For one or two decades without any big change. It's clearly a, a huge delusion. Mm-hmm. And, uh, we are going to come in, in the coming years to, uh, real hard challenges and stronger decisions, uh, to be

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 18:36

needed. Mm-hmm. And are you confident that the, I mean the, the government and the board of directors at EDF is capable of making those tough decisions?

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 18:46

I mean, it, it's, uh, a kind of matter of, uh, preferences between, between short term interest, which is of trying not to change anything and long term life threat, EDF, it's whole industrial strategy and the whole governance system around it. Need to change dramatically to survive the next decades. Mm-hmm. But the pressure for not changing anything in the short term is actually dominating on this. Need for a deeper change, the push for, for profitability, et cetera,

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 19:23

et cetera. So what, what's the outlook then? What does this mean for, for renewables in France? And we talked a little bit, and I talked to sort of people, uh, earlier, um, that, that in, in this pod about that. So what's the outlook there, especially for wind and solar? I mean, it's, France has a huge off coastline. Yeah. It's very sunny in the south.

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 19:40

The, the potential is enormous. The desire of many players is, uh, is strong. Um, it's a, it's a huge opportunity for the French industry if it would jump on, on these new markets instead of sticking to the old, one of the, uh, of the nuclear industry. The concern is that if we stick to the current strategy, which is. Pretending that we can keep much of the nuclear fleet in place while developing renewables. I mean, we, we come to a conflicting situation in economic terms 'cause that leads to, uh, oversizing of the, uh, French electric system. And that is going to cost. Um, so the, the risk is that we keep nuclear with potential issues with safety and profitability, but at the same time. Without developing renewables as much as we commit to because there's no room for them.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 20:37

Mm, exactly. Either economically or in the system or, yeah. Yeah. I mean,

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 20:42

no, no, no room from, uh, an economic and institutional perspective. Yeah,

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 20:48

I might, some would say, because you are sort of an, um, uh, an anti-nuclear campaigner that you would be typically very, very critical of this. So that's, you're bound to say this.

Yves Marignac, Director at WISE-Paris: 20:57

Well, I'm, I'm really, um, denying being an anti-nuclear campaigner. Mm-hmm. That. That's really not my point. I mm-hmm. I mean, turn, turn to, uh, people at Greenpeace or, uh, in nuclear, and you, you, you would see, how are you different? How are you different? You would see, you would see that they, they they have, and they develop very different positions from mine on, on some critical issues. So it's too simplistic to say that you're, and, and, and, and it's, I mean, I am, and not me, but Weis Paris is really trying to develop critical analysis with, which is. An expertise, and I mean, you, you don't provide good expertise if you start with an apriori, which is poor anti. So, uh, I mean, we, we develop critical expertise and yes, it's our role to challenge the institutional expertise. So, I mean, it would be pointless for us to, uh, develop the same kind of view and the same kind of analysis that. The operators or the, uh, I mean the industry, uh, the, uh, technical support organization or the authorities. So we are there to challenge, uh, their views, but based on the same requirements that apply to any kind of expertise. Mm-hmm. Coming back to facts, explaining our analysis, assumptions, conclusions, and the whole, uh, reasoning behind it. So an independent so that it could be, uh, argued. Um, that's what we, we are here for. And, uh. I mean it, yeah. I think it's a, it's a really important role considering the current situation that some players develop this, uh, yeah. This kind of challenging analysis to the system, I think

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 22:41

desperately needs it. Needs an independent, unbiased, yeah. Analyst such as yourself. Yeah. Eve, thank you very much. Thank you for joining them on TelePod today. Thank you. Thank you for inviting us. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the Montel Weekly podcast. You can find us on iTunes, Spotify, and on the Montel website. Keep up to date with all the latest news on Montel News and follow us on Twitter. Goodbye.