Gas to dominate with “new normal” EUR 30 for CO2

Gas is set to continue to push coal and lignite out of the power mix amid ample supply and carbon prices at a “new normal” level of EUR 30/t. 

Listen to the latest podcast and the discussion about the key drivers for Europe’s gas and power markets in the weeks and months ahead.

Host:

• Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel. 

Guests:

• Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy, 
• Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics. 

Transcript

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Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 0:05

Hello listeners and welcome to the Montel Weekly podcast, bring You Energy Matters in an informal setting. My name is Richard Sverrisson, and today I am joined by Wayne Bryan, senior Energy and Commodity Analyst at Alpha Energy and by Paola Coghe, president of Consultancy at Acousmatics. A warm welcome to you both. I thought today what we'd be talking about mainly is the gas market and what's happening, the general dynamics. Here and also what the implications are for the wider energy complex, the, the fuels, et cetera, the power market in, in, in Europe this summer. Gas prices touched historic lows, Wayne, didn't they? Um, although they, they, they've sort of recovered a bit since

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 0:44

we slightly recovered, but we've seen a softness again over the past couple of days.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 0:48

So what, what's happening, what's going on?

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 0:50

I think I mentioned to you this before, um, when we looked at the gas markets a few months ago, and even the, the conferences that are presented at for you guys. One of my main concerns and big drivers for the market was what's going on globally in the economics. Um, and you've seen the last few days, I think Chinese industrial production was at a 17 year low in terms of growth. You've seen all the bad PMI numbers indicating to a slow down in manufacturing. Uh, yesterday you saw the US and the UK yield curves, invert. Which can give a sign that we could see a recession. So all these for me. Aside from the usual fundamentals, this is something that I've been looking at as a potential, well, I say potential as a downside driver for gas markets, and we've seen the last couple of days. What that downturn and lower growth outlook for global economics has done to carbon. When I left the office earlier, it was 26, I think 80. So three, three week low crude, pushed down to round the 50 eights again, when I left the office earlier, uh, coal prices, I saw that through Rise Price for 2019. API, uh, sorry. 2020 has been revised down by UBS. Mm-hmm. Uh, and again, they're pointing to the changes globally in terms of outlook. Uh, and for me. So that's had a big impact. But also, as I mentioned to you before as well, we've seen the supply, there's been very robust throughout this summer we have seen some, what we'll call commercial flow reduction coming from eor, um, in terms of what's coming through, which has had an impact, but we've seen that's large in the last. Few days or last, well, the last month or two, last month, we've had a few spanners in the works, right? Yeah. Which has helped boost the price, the spot market. But what I've seen, again, something I've pointed out before is what's going on with Russia. They've been proving that they're not really there for price, they're there for market share. If you look at the flows that have been coming out of Russia, have been very strong as well as that look at the ESP, their electronic sales platform that's been really active. Uh, and I think they just, uh, they're gonna keep pumping gas regardless. And I've noted in some instances when we've seen fall downs in Langley, uh, Russia has stepped up and increased volumes. And one of the big things I saw this summer, Nord stream maintenance occurred generally they wouldn't normally reroute, but they rerouted a lot of gas. Uh, I think it was through Nu mm. Um, and we saw. Unexpected amounts of volumes coming into Europe. So that's having an impact. So sos a combination of the macro

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 3:16

and also the, you know, supply and demand fundamentals within the gas segment. Do you, would you agree Paolo that Yeah. The, the, the global environment is, is

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 3:24

definitely pretty precarious. Wind makes my job easy. I agree with everything. Everything he said. I will. Truly do. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I will add to that, that, that what we are seeing is this globalization has helped us in terms of gas helped, I mean, has, has given us lower gas prices, plenty of supply even with, uh, European demand being sustained. And also it has exposed us a little bit to geopolitics on the, on the flip. Side, right? So we are seeing also the, you know, tariff war with China coming through with, you know, with the LNG side. We are also seeing the sanctions making their way in, if nothing else, in terms of concerns. So, all, all to say, I agree and geopolitics exposure has increased in this, in these days,

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 4:08

but the element of that geopolitics is also a move towards more protectionism and more, you know, keeping, you know. Breaking down some of that, that free trade has existed up until now. Yes. And,

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 4:19

and, and to, to elaborate on a point that, that, that Wayne has made is, is, um, that is the fact that Russians are interested in having their gas flow. It is always been the Russian story, right? Yeah. And they stand by it. By, and you can see it by observing the flows. So these, these, so you could look at the European Union every year has this sort of winter packages and you concerns will the, with the Russian gas flow or not. And well, I think that over the last 15 years, at least, even though we have had those, you know, January crisis with the Ukraine back in, back in the day Right. It was almost like a regular event. Mm-hmm. Russians have proven that they're in. To extract their gas and flow it to where the market wants it. Now, the mo, the modern version of, of this story is also though they are, have focused on LNG Yes. And Asia, right? And, uh, if one wanted to be a bit cynical, would one would also add that they are perhaps making the best of climate change, right? Mm-hmm. Because the arctic root mm-hmm. In summer is, you know, more open so than it was correct. Than it was in the past.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 5:26

Yeah. So it makes that l energy more, more freely available. Mm-hmm. As, as well as the pipe stuff. But then, I mean, that what's interesting, so if there's a full, a drop in supply from one, one country or one supplier, it seems that the others coming in and, and replacing that. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that's quite an interesting dynamic. So, correct. That would indicate that. These low prices could be here to stay for a

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 5:48

while,

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 5:48

Wayne,

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 5:49

or, well, I always, whenever people say that stay for a while, I'm always not concerned, but slightly, uh, I always like to put a caveat in whatever I say. Mm. And in terms of that respect, if all things remain equal, status quo remains, then yes, I can only see some downside, but. I've been working energy long enough to know that there's always something around the corner. Yeah. And even though we see this, and this is a word that you might know, actually, smorgasbord, I quite heard this word. Yeah, I've heard it before. Yeah. A couple of times. Swedish. I think even though we see this smorgasbord of, of bearishness in global markets, and when I say smorgasbord, I'm talking about Italy. Uh, Argentina trade wars. Brexit. Look at all these concerns around the world, uh, building up. But again, on the, on the flip side as well, uh, in terms of there is still some sustained demand. Like you said, we did see a, we've seen more increased gas for power demand, but overall, I think if we see things remain equal, I can only see a bit more downside, especially what's going on. Economically. Yeah, I don't see, there's not much outlook, uh, for markets or equities especially to start getting a bit bullish again. And in the near term, things may change. Trump might put out another tweet today. Yeah. He's quite good at, he put out a tweet last week saying that we're gonna. Halt some of the taxes until December. You saw equities rally. Yeah. Oil rallied. Carbon rallied gas and power rallied. So again, east have an influence. So I'm still not, he's the main price driver. He is. So I'm still not sure about what, but at the moment, yeah, I'm seeing, uh, more downside again, we're going to, we'll see a test over the next few days.'cause saw gas for winter was last traded, uh, 48, 80 or 90 this morning. Now, if you look back previously, that was the sort of level where it bounced from. So I'm interested to see where that goes down. My always, my thought was always that we'll start seeing prices in winter really start to go down once we get into the winter. Okay. But not before. Not before, but we, we will see it down before, but I think we'll really see it when we get into it because we've got, we'll have the usual concerns, but let's not forget where gas storage is. Mm. Last year we had a, so many problems at once, a coal price was a hundred dollars. Mm. Uh, oil was around 70, I believe. Mm. We had concerns around storage, which was at a real low LNG. Where was it? It wasn't forthcoming and we still managed to get through the winter.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 8:03

Yeah, yeah.

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 8:03

Fast forward 12 months. Storage is at 83% apparently today. Uh, LNG slow down has happened, but that's for other reasons. We can come onto that after and demand is falling. But so far the weather outlook, I looked at some models the other day, seasonal forecast, all the signals. Offer a, a warmer start. Mm. September, October, November. Still look above average. And after that there's still no real signs of any chance of a beast from the east. But again, that could occur. So for me, yeah. But then the, the

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 8:32

forward prices seem to be that there's bit dis jump between, correct, between the near curve and then, and the forward prices is that

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 8:40

they're quite resilient. I, I'm looking at summer 20 especially for, for, for of my clients and that, that price is resilient. And again, uh. What you've gotta look at, we spoke about Ukraine, there's concerns around that deal, which, uh, expires the end of December. Yeah. So that for me is one of the things, potential that's built in potential. There's some risk premiums built in. I do believe that will get resolved and what we were talking about earlier, alludes to that. And the Russians wanna send the gas out and they're gonna come to an agreement. It's all about the timeframe I think of this agreement. Six months, 12 months, one month to, that, to me is the problem. But Ukraine need the finances and Russia. They don't wanna seed any market share. So I believe that, uh, that will get resolved and we'll see some of that risk premium come off once we see an agreement. Mm,

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 9:22

yeah. Interesting. I mean, what, what does all this mean for, for European utilities? There's a lot of talk or fuel switching. So in addition to low gas prices, we've had carbon almost touching 30 euros. It's come off a bit since, as Wayne mentioned, but what, what does that mean for, for, for fuel switching in Europe? Because it's not, it's not possible everywhere, is it?

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 9:44

The, the correct answer is, it depends, right, of course. But, um, but I think the story here is, is a story of a world that has changed. I don't see, right now, I don't think with the possible exception of, of gas prices. We are not in a world of commodity price extremes. Coal at 60, oil at 70, okay. Power at, you know, high forties, um, power in Germany. Um, so it's not a world of extremes, and yet it's a world that has changed with the respect to the last time we saw this switch between. Gas generation spreads and coal generation spreads in Europe. We could go back about 10, 12 years. Mm-hmm. And we were just coming from a period where cold spreads were higher than gas spreads, so advantage to, to coal, uh, generators, and then gas. Spreads came up. Now this is exactly what has happened now. The big difference I see between then and now is that back then nobody was thinking or mentioning coal phase out. And, you know, the, the, the threshold for that was Paris 2015, where now it's clear that the world has, maybe it's too generous to save the world, but certainly here in Europe we have moved towards. A situation where we are actively phasing out coal. Some countries sooner than others, some countries are more dependent on coal than others, and this is definitely having an impact. And so in this context, carbon prices at 30. Now if the question is, is that an extreme or not? It's a mix A little bit may, maybe sometimes carbon gets a hold of ahead of itself. But the reality is that I believe that this 30 price is the new normal for carbon and that. If that is true and that is not going to change, then what that means, uh, is, is not good Times ahead for coal and ignite generators, which are clearly, you know, much more polluting, you know, about twice as more polluting, um, as gas generation is.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 11:37

Absolutely. Have you, I mean. We've seen some, in some company results that have come out, you know, in, in July and August that that Lignite's generation has fallen substantially. Um, RW is said they've fallen by almost 25%. I think PL said something the other day about gas, 25

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 11:57

OTT hours. Sorry, down 26%. Yeah, sorry. Juniper said something there as well about increased, uh, gas fire generation in comparison to Lignite and I think, and

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 12:06

so in that, in, in that sense, um, it's. Tough luck. Yeah. In other words, ignite, um, and call. This stage are price takers, right? Mm-hmm. In the, in, in the merit order curve in, in, uh, in Germany, for example. And so if gas prices go down and they have gone down, what that means is that power prices are going to follow and go down as well. And there's nothing that Ignite generation can do to, to, to change that, right? Now, the, the historic advantage of Lignite generation is that its costs are so low. That for the longest time it has been able to. You know, withstand, uh, this, this situation and keep some margins positive. Now with the latest combination of prices and the relativities of, of, of prices, this is no, has no longer been possible for Ignite generators in Germany,

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 12:54

isn't it? What key question as well as you alluded to here. Is it a short term dynamic or is it more, more this is the way, this is the way it's gonna be normal in, in my opinion, normal.

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 13:04

You know, just like, like Wayne was saying earlier, you know, never say never, right? But, but the trend is most definitely going in that direction. Right? I do not see a bright future for Ignite generation, for sure. In Europe. Mm-hmm. Uh, for coal generation as well. Yeah. Uh, and then, you know. Single country specifics or single company specifics can change. You know, somebody you know may be able to hold on a little longer through some smart commercial action, but the reality is that these doors have closed.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 13:33

If you're a company utility or producer generating both gas and lignite, how do you hedge this, this, this, this new world or this new normal? I mean, you've already seen some. Companies, you know, with, with a different kind of hedging strategy?

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 13:48

Yes. Well, that depends on how strong is your view based on fundamentals and how strong on the other side is your risk appetite. Okay? Right. If you are in a company that has a strong enough risk appetite, right, and, and, uh, very strong belief in its own view, then you may want to to behave in a certain way on, on the markets, right? Mm-hmm. And, and you would do this through your, your hedging. You would hedge an unh accordingly.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 14:13

Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, how, how do you see this, Wayne? Do you, you know, some of your clients are obviously looking closely at, at the way the prices are evolving or how they're developing, they want to sort of lock in Yeah. The prices. Have you noticed any change in, in

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 14:27

behavior there or hedging, uh, activity? Some clients, again, especially with the market, has been in backwardation for the most part, the gas markets and the power markets for the past few years. We saw a little switch, uh, earlier in the year, but now we're clearly back into backwardation again. So, yeah, if the price fits within their budget. People are locking in further along the curve, uh, than they used to because there's opportunities. And even though we may say, well, you know, if you take this today at say, you know, 35 pence, a ther, uh, for say 20 20, 21, we could get close delivery and it could be, you know, it could be 25 or 30. However, they, again, there's always the risk, it's higher. So companies are now more, uh, likely now to hedge out further than we used to see due to the opportunity that's been presented. In terms of the backwardation, because it's quite a strong visual tool. If you look at a chart and see backwardation, it's like, ooh. It's like if you said to you, can you get your car insurance? You know, for three years, 30% cheaper, you'd think that's a great deal. Mm-hmm. So we've seen a lot more of, a lot more of that, and I think we will see more of that moving forward. Even on the flip side, clients or anybody on the spot. Day ahead, et especially this summer, has done very well. Mm-hmm. Had a few clients on day ahead products throughout this summer. Mm-hmm. And the prices have out turned very well mm-hmm. As we come to the end of the month and we see how that out turned. So yeah, definitely an increase in, uh, more hedging further down the curve because the opportunity's presented. It's like if you. Look at some of the yield curves in fixed income, et cetera. It's a similar kind of thing. Yeah. You're locking in those low prices. Exactly.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 15:55

But again, Paula, I mean, how, you know, we are seeing the switch away from Ignite and coal, but can these gas plants, can they replace them? I mean, can you know, can they run 8,000 hours a year? It's, um, and the question is then how, it certainly can, but

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 16:09

it's country that the answer is country specific. Mm-hmm. You know, or in Germany you will still need. Coal and ignite to some extent. Correct. You can, you just don't have enough gas generation, gas, fire generation or a combination of gas, fire generation, let's call it more baseload type of generation plus renewables that would allow you to, to, to completely do away with, uh, coal. Another, you know, just to give an example of another country, France. Right. Well. Gas is not, not a big, not a big factor there. And, uh, we've seen, you know, nuclear, um, generation volumes recover a little bit. You know, 2019 is ahead of where 2018 was, and we've known, you know, sort of the, the huge picky part of the nuclear crisis in France is, is behind us. So, so again, country specific mm-hmm. Is the, is the answer. I

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 16:56

completely agree with that. Yeah. It's definitely, it's like when I did a presentation for you guys in Spain this year, we're talking about coal again, that's another example of a country specific different. Energy mix, et cetera. And also on the subject of coal light, you said, I agree with you 100%. I said it, I've said it a couple of times now. The future of coal is bleak for me. And I've had coal trade as an analyst, uh, not enjoying that statement, but for me it's a, it's a true statement. I think the future is pretty bleak

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 17:23

for coal. Yeah. And then, and if you're an analyst, you know, uh, you can see the writing on the wall sometimes. And so there, there is examples from, uh, from, for example, companies that have made certain decisions. One, one that comes to mind is Sipm. So sip E. Is an Italian company that builds infrastructure for essentially oil platforms. And these types of infrastructures. And a few years back, they made a choice to actually. Put their chips on natural gas infrastructure development, and they just were awarded a huge contract, a couple of huge contracts in the last month or so, one of them having to do with, with Yamal sanctions, not withstanding right. They've been, they've been rewarded by deciding actually to go for gas. Okay. Yeah. So, so again, the writing is on the wall, but, but sometimes this thing move very slowly. Right. And you have to have the, the staying. Uh, strength or the patience to wait. Sometimes, you know, if you are right, but ahead of time of your time, you might as well not be right.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 18:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's very true. But you also have to be quite nimble, dynamic and be able to make those decisions, you know? Yeah. Quickly, other examples in, in the gas and oil sector where, you know. These big, big oil majors are looking to to to to green. To green themselves. Correct. To green their portfolio. Correct. How much they can all succeed in. That is a of course, another matter. What I was gonna ask you, uh, Wayne as well, is you, you mentioned very robust supply, mainly from Russia, uh, gas supply, this is, and also Norway, do you expect? And America. And America, of course. From LNG. Yeah. How, how do you see this? Do you see. I mean, brush has been pumping at record levels the previous two years. Uh, Norway's been around, so 112, 115 BCM. Do you, do you see that piped gas? Do you see that continuing on those levels for, for, for 2019? For this year, definitely.

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 19:15

Again, I mentioned there's been some, um, commercial flow reductions or interruptions, shall I put it? Uh, this year we've seen a bit more. Uh, evidence of that, uh, from EOR and what the volumes we've seen through Lang led. But Russia's been pretty constant. Mm-hmm. And I've read some of their recent statements. I think they had, they had a conference recently and they were talking about prospects. And even for this year, they were gonna outdo last year in terms of volumes delivered to Europe and how they're continuing on this path mm-hmm. Uh, of providing Europe the gas it needs and providing the security it needs. Um, so I think. In terms of Russia, it'll continue Norway. Yes. Again, uh, they'll continue pumping that gas. And again, America might come back into it now because we saw a lot of LNG the first few months of the year, and then when prices dropped to where they were, it became uneconomical for them to send them cargoes. Um, but now I've saw that, uh, is it the Henry Hubs at three year low? Mm-hmm. Summer price was the weakest for 20 years in the spot this year. Mm-hmm. So again, we might see more, uh, some more LNG cargoes from America.'cause they, you can tell they want to participate not only for for financial reasons, but also I think for political gains. Mm-hmm. You look at the Nord stream, I know we're gonna talk about the Nord stream too, and the potential sanctions on that, and they seem quite intent to disrupt that. Also as well, you've seen Trump, not only Trump, but some of his advisors, they've been to Europe, they've been involved in conferences talking about LNG and how they're gonna get more LNG to Europe. So I think. In terms of supply, we are looking pretty good. And also I think you're gonna see demand from other places start to fall, especially China. Uh, China are moving massively in the way of renewables. They've got that pipeline now as well coming from Russia that's gonna start up soon. And also they're getting a lot more LNG, uh, from Australia. Because that there's a lot more trains coming online from

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 20:59

Australia and that part of the world isn't there. So that's, that's adding to this. It's adding, I mean, we, we've been talking about this, a potential flood of LNG for years and years, but now it's finally, finally come through. It's finally

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 21:10

here. We see I've seen a slow down recently that's more do with the low price environment and also you've seen a bit more enhanced, uh, maintenance and maintenance has been brought forward. But again, the conditions have, have, uh, laid the foundations for that in terms of what we've seen in China and. The Atlantic and Pacific basins last winter, both mild summers not warm enough to stimulate massive air con demand. Again, it is for me. Uh, the story, it's like the coal market again, the storage levels in both basins are full, close to fullness in terms of time of year. Demand isn't there at the moment, so we've seen supply ease back a bit. Mm-hmm. But there's new installations of Freeport Corpus Christi. There's a couple of new installations in America. There's some new startups. Prelude started a floating LNG, so. I think in terms of supply next year will be sort of more of the same for me, unless again, there's some sort of material shift or something happens, which always can. Yep.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 22:07

You touched upon Nord Stream two and the potential for sanctions. How do you view this, Paolo?

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 22:13

It ties up to what I was saying a bit earlier about this, uh, exposure to, uh, this globalization driving exposure to geopolitics. Mm. I was looking at some numbers recently in terms, um, I think these are numbers from Oxford Institute of Energy Studies on, um, you know, who are the three major exporters of LNG. And if we look at these numbers, Australia comes at number one, Qatar, number two, and US and number three. Mm-hmm. However, when you look at what's. Projected to come online next year. The US overtakes both of these countries in theory, in principle. Mm-hmm. And, and becomes number one. Now, what interest does the US have? Right? Where, where is us fighting? Its its wars, so to speak, on this geopolitical front. Well, I can pick up two adversaries immediately, right? China on one end and Russia on, on the other, right? And so and so, this drive and this pressure to, to sort of renew or put further sanctions. Onto Russia, for example, come, come within this, within this context, right? Mm-hmm. There is, there is certainly a strong push for that. It's always been like this because the technology to do certain things has always been western technology. So it's a, it is a weapon that the west has right in, in this war for, for market share in this case. Mm-hmm. Where the west can withhold, right? And the technology making it more difficult for Russia. But on the other hand, now, if you see China coming into this play and. China needing and being actually one of the largest recent years of LNG, then the Russians have been hindered by one, one side, but helped by the other. Mm. So it's gonna be very, very, I think next year will be extremely interesting from this point of view.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 23:49

Absolutely. How do you see it panning out, uh, when this, this potential that, that potential sanctions North Stream come online, you know, would that be added? You know,

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 23:57

well, I spoke about this in, in Dool. I said at the time that I believe it will still go ahead. And I put, I put up a slide with several quotes from various people. Some in the European Union energy, and they were saying it's, it's more or less completed in terms of the pipe work. You've got the issue in Denmark, obviously, but that'll get resolved. Mm. And I think Germany wants this and they need the gas. I don't think American sanctions will be able to stop this personally. I think it will still Go ahead. Mm. There might be some resistance that we might see it. Drag on a bit longer than expected, but I fully expect the Nord Stream two to be up and running. Very soon.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 24:33

Yeah.

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 24:34

I don't see sanctions really, uh, stopping it to be honest.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 24:37

Certainly lots to, uh, keep track of and a certain Twitter feed to which we, we need to take very, very close. Wait, I've been following it for over 12 months. Exactly. You've got it on your phone, sort of ping notification. Yeah. As much

Wayne Bryan, senior energy and commodity analyst, Alfa Energy: 24:50

as I loathe to follow it, I do. For purposes of. Seeing how much, uh, he's talking and what markets we will move. And it invariably he's been moving lots of markets with one quick tweet.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 25:01

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's about all from us this week, so thank you very much to Wayne and Paolo. Um,

Paolo Coghe, president, Acousmatics: 25:07

you

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 25:08

welcome. Thank you. And make sure listeners, that you tune into our Nordic Energy Day special next week. And remember to keep up to date with all our stories on Montel News. Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn and subscribe to us on iTunes and Spotify.