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Plugged In: the energy news podcast
Navigating PPA complexity
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PPAs are a crucial way to finance new renewable energy as countries phase out subsidies and companies are looking to consume more green energy. This week´s pod discusses the current state of the PPA market and highlights ways to overcome regulatory barries and other risks.
Host:
- Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel.
Guests:
- Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL,
- Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD.
Hello listeners and welcome to the Montel Weekly podcast, bring You Energy Matters in informal setting. My name's Richardson and I'm joined today by Caroline Brun Ellefsen of DNV. We're standing in the lobby of the hotel Orco in Amsterdam, so listeners apologize. Apologies for any any odd noises you may hear in the background. But, but Carolina, we're here to talk about a project or a platform that d and e just launched. Can you tell us a little bit about that?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:Sure. Hello, so my name is Caroline Bruen. I'm the Global head of Intrust at DNGL. We are now releasing the beta version of Insta Trust, which is a marketplace. For corporate PPA. So basically we're trying to bring transparency and liquidity in this market by enabling buyers to identify and search through PPA options and project developers to identify PPA demands.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Okay. So what, so can you tell me a little bit more about the platform? What is it and how, how will it help the market for PPAs in general?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:So when, when we look at the, um, the development of the, of the PPA market corporate PPA market, it's very much today this bilateral agreement between corporate energy buyer and project developer. And we see that it's moving towards more digitalization. What we are offering is a online platform, to facilitate the connection and towards automated matches. So suggestion to buyers what kind of project they should look at and what risks they are exposing themselves to for each project. Of course, it's one of the step towards more features. We will move towards aggregation of several buyers to scale up this market. And also offer a scoring of the projects. To help buyers identify the risks.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:So it's more electronic or automized matching of a buyer and seller on a platform, because the market, as I understand, is very, very complex. There are so many PPA contracts out there, both synthetics, lead corporate, physical. So your platform will offer all of those kind of products.
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:I cannot say about the exact roadmap as we were in a beta version. But what I can say is that as a first step, the connections between two parties who want to sign an agreement and aligning the expectations on a more transparent manner over time it'll evolve in more assistance. To the buyers for, for the structuration of the PPA. And at this time we are launching mostly the, the matchmaking platform.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Okay. What, what are the next steps? You say it's a better version. What, what happens after this?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:The next features we are developing are very much focused on scaling up the market. So we are looking at the PP market and it's there's exci exciting deals being signed, but it's. Still very small compared to the role it should play to enable renewables to strive in this merchant risk renewables. So that's features around aggregation of buyers and it's also features around risk mitigation tools. And the next phase is. Is for us to also allow the buyers to issue tenders on the platform.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:So when you say merchant risk, I mean it's basically because they're subsidy free and they need to find this is the best way to finance large scale renewable build or to, for companies looking to, to procure more, more green energy. Is that right? Yeah. And what are the other risks involved here on, on both side buying and selling side that you're helping to mitigate?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:We couldn't sum up the, the risks on fuel risks, operational risk and price risk. So when we're talking at the fuel risk for renewables, it's mostly about yeah, the intermittency and variability of of the resource. So looking at what kind of structure by buyers agree with. So pay as generated or pay as consumed. Then of course the higher penetration of renewables brings also challenges and, and, and risks because you'll have to, to hedge for, uh. For risks when the, the prices are very high as a buyer in some of the structures that the credit risks stay one of the biggest risks, especially look at one of the main risks for investors. And fi Finally, operational risks are still sometimes allocated to buyers while they don't have any control on. Yeah. The performance and maintenance of the assets.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:So it's quite a risky business. The PPA world really isn't. There's a catalog of different risks that need to be addressed and yeah. Yeah, if.
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:Could just add on, on the history. If you look at the history of the PA, it's actually when you look at, uh, when it started, it was contract between utilities and fossil, fossil fuel, uh, plants. So really players that, there's quite
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:an old, it's quite different.
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:It's utilities have yeah. This trading capacity. They have a diversified portfolio and the fossil fuel plants are dispatchable. And, and we transfer this to corporates that have. A completely different risk profile and renewable plants that are intermittent and variable. And of course it has been adapted in some ways, but the fundamental risk allocation hasn't changed. And, and that's a big issue for the market to scale up.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:What is the role of utilities at the moment then in, in a platform such as yours?'cause they're, they're often, I mean, I suppose it depends on the type. PPA, but what, what's, what's their role?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:We consider any counterpart selling renewable energy as a participant on our platform, which we can join as sellers. And of course all time as a platform business for PPA will match your. There could be more users to those platforms, including the traders utilities other kind of service providers that want to join and offer the services on the platform. But currently we open it to buyers and sellers of green power.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:And what kind of scale are we talking here and what, what are the numbers? Are there sort, you know, anything from one megawatt to, to 500 or.
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:Yeah, we are more focused on utility scale or quite large projects because it's has been the kind of companies who supported us and tested the platform with us. But if we want this kind of platforms to play a role in scaling up corporate PPA, it has also to be smaller projects. For smaller buyers. Yeah.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Which would then be aggregated as well, or there's a role for the aggregators to come in and offer
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:Yeah. That green thousand, of course. So that's one of the feature we are working on is this aggregation of several buyers. Based on the standardized contracts and also building portfolio of smaller projects for a buyer to match their load. So also including this. More multi technology, PPA portfolio that could benefit their risk profile.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Yep. Where do you see yourself being active? Which geographical areas are, are you looking to, to, to grow in or to, to, to develop the product in?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:So, um,
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:the platform. Yeah. But being,
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:being at the resource now, it's, it's. Very much European customers we are starting with for this beta version, there's no restriction on the features in term of geography. But of course we see some of the markets where conditions are Yeah. More beneficial for, for corporate PPA. And it's. More likely that it'll take off.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:What markets would that be
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:beyond Europe. There's of course the us where this existing similar solutions. That's quite booming anyway, isn't it? Yes. But I mean,
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:thinking more in Europe, which countries in particular Yeah. Do you see most potential in or, or,
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:well. Uk, Spain, Italy. Netherland. And then we are looking at France and Germany very carefully. Of course there's some regulatory barriers that needs to be removed, but a lot of discussions in those two countries. And a lot of also advocacy to remove those barriers. We'll come
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:back to those barriers because I think that's quite an interesting develop. Well, that's gonna, removing those is gonna push the market even further, isn't it? But I think, um, what my next question was really. Gonna be about the competition. I mean, we've, we've heard here at this conference in Amsterdam, there's, there's, there was three platforms offering similar, similar kind of PPA deals or possibilities to, to match buyer and seller. Would that be a correct understanding of it? That it's, it's, it's becoming more of a competitive space?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:I think slowly. But it's also a very good sign. It's very healthy. I think to have several solutions being pre-launched or launched today is, is good. And it's also very interesting to see that each company behind this. PPA platforms come from a different angle. So we are a technical advisor. We are a third party independent advisors. Some are providing materials, others are more startup technology with no previous experience in energy. So I think having different background also brings the, the priority for the features, uh, on, on yeah, different levels. And that's. Interesting for the market
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:for sure, because it has been a lot of discussion about the complexity of the deals, the length of time it takes to, to, to complete, um, the negotiations. But would platforms like, like yours then cut this right back? A add to transparency and b, cut the time it takes to reach such a deal.
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:That's really how our hope and our vision I think a lot of the informal discussion between buyers and sellers take time. And also a lot of time is spent on aligning expectations, revealing the preferences. And that could be time saved using platforms like INS Intertrust. And then there's I think we're still at a phase where there will be structuration and negotiation offline. I think it's important to mention that we're not at a. Stage where any of the, of those platforms offer a fully digitalized experience and tradable commodity for the PPA. But it's not from tomorrow
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:anyway, but no, no, not for
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:tomorrow. But it's, it's, yeah, it's a step by step crotch, I guess.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Sure. And returning to those regulatory barriers or the obstacles to really push this, this segment forward, could you, could what, what are they, I mean, they, maybe they're different in different countries. Yes. But you mentioned Germany and France. Maybe we could start with those.
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:But in France and Germany, the transfers of geos are not allowed if projects receive remuneration subsidies. And that's a big issue because of course, uh, the, the incentive for corporates is quite low. They don't get this certificates. And another regulatory issue that. Is a lot of discuss during this conference is the cross-border PPA, where we need to facilitate those deals. And especially the, the transmission line availability on the long term to allow cross-border PPAs. And although the most effective deals for buyers.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Mm. So what, what needs to happen there on the, you know, the regulators need to sort of overhaul their, basically the rules or, or, because in new renewable energy directive there is Article 15 which says,
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:yep,
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:member states have to do all they can to enable. To incentivize, to remove the
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:barriers, not to remove
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:barriers for corporate PPAs in particular.
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:Absolutely. I think this is very typical barriers that are discussed nationally. I'm aware of what's happening in France, and that's one of the barrier that it's discussed. Is this transfers of geo that needs to be possible. Cross-border PPA question is more a European question that that needs to be settled between the different member states.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Sure. Is it possible then also to, to purely, uh, match buys and sellers of GOs on your platform? Or does it have to be in conjunction with the, with the, with the power purchase agreement?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:So we have decided not to offer the unbundled certificates on the platform. We've considered it, I think other platforms are emerging in, in. Singapore for SP and in Norway there's a big core there's the Energy Web Foundation working on it. There's initiatives in the US for sure, certificates seems to be like a more commoditized product that many started with for the platforms. But from our discussion with many buyers. They wanna move away from the sandburn certificates to make sure they can claim additionality. So our Okay. Decision has been to focus on a more complex, but maybe longer term solution of the PPA
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:in terms of additionality. Just for, for those listeners who aren't aware of that term, that's basically for new renewables build, is it, is it not?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:Yeah, I think it can be defined as the ability to claim that you are adding capacity to the grid. So you, contributing to a project being built in finance by signing this long term power purchase agreement. Well for the certificates, it's usually one year purchase. So it doesn't, and, and the price doesn't allow the projects to be built. It's an additional, uh, cost for the buyer. It's an additional revenue for the, for the developers.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Mm-hmm. Perfect. I just finally, I just a question about how your platform and others will co-exist with sort of power exchanges, where, where power is traded, both physically and financially varying from, from, you know. 15 minute products to, to, to many, many years further out in the curves. How will your platform coexist with, with those exchanges?
Caroline Brun Ellefsen, Global Head, Instatrust, DNV GL:Yeah, we, we followed very closely the, the offer from the exchanges of this longer term contracts. And I think you mentioned earlier, 10 years. And I think it's very complimentary and not a competition to any corporate PP market growing and striving in some condition, in some cases for some buyers to make more sense to go towards this players and, and sign this agreements. But again, on the additionality issue, it's not. It doesn't have the same the same spectrum of additionality, let's say.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Caroline, thanks very much for your time. Thank you much. Thank you. Joining motto weekly podcast joining me at the resource of event in Amsterdam. Where the topic, the hot topic is PPAs, is Mariana Heinrich from W-B-C-S-D, if I have that correct. Mariana
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:That is correct.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Welcome, welcome to you.
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:Thank you.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Obviously. The key issue here is is the PPA market in Europe. Could you say a few words about that? We heard earlier from another guest who was talking about the use of PPA platform to bring buyers and sellers together. I'd like to discuss more generally the market, how you, how you perceive it at the moment in Europe. Uh, has there been a slow down and. Or not?
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:Yeah, that's an interesting question. So corporate renewable power purchase agreements. So PPAs have historically developed in the US and started really around the year, sort of 2013 to 2015 to slowly to, to slowly grow. Now, hence that movements and slowly spread across the globe. And of course also Europe. And so in the years of 20 15, 16 17, we started to see a. Slow but steady pickup of, of corporate renewable PPAs also in, in Europe in 18, 20 18, we had a record year with several gigawatts of capacity being added. Now, when you look at the statistics from today, I understand why you are asking me the, the question about the slowdown. And really I don't think we are seeing a slowdown as such. I think we are actually seeing that. A lot of corporate buyers are learning. And hence they are taking a little bit longer to sign their deals. Because as the market is maturing we see more innovative deals. But obviously as you're doing them for the first time, they take also more time to negotiate. And I think by the end of the year of 2019, we're probably gonna see around the. Same figures that, that we had for 2018, maybe even more. And one other point that is really important to note as well is that not all corporate PPAs are made actually public. Okay. So there are a few companies who may be signing deals. But because of their business strategy, their climate and energy strategy, they might just not, they might decide to not make those publicly known,
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:so they keep it quite hush hush. Yeah. Um, yeah. So in terms of numbers, Mariana, could you just run through what, what, what, what we saw last year and, and and what for, was it we mainly wind, or mainly solar and, and what, what are the expectations for this year?
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:Yeah. In 20 15, 20 16 and 2017 we saw a gross of, of corporate PPAs sort of between four to six gigawatts of capacity annually now in 2018. Then we had quite an increase topping out at 13 gigawatts. And that is a, sorry, that is global numbers. Now if we're just looking at the European numbers, then it is, two to three gigawatts on average over the years, 2015 to 2017. Then a bit more in, in 2018 which is sort of around four gigawatts and to date, um, in, in 2019 we have one gigawatt. And that is figures as of there's the middle of September 2019. So I expect that at the end of the year, we are gonna be hitting again a number between sort of three to four gigawatts, um, for, for the European market. Looking further ahead, we think that corporate renewable BBAs are a great method for, for companies, um, to source renewable electricity for their operations equally. They're, they're not for everyone. So there are other alternatives like onsite solutions that could be made in a direct investment or in a corporate PPA. There's also the purchase of guarantees of origin. That is an option for some corporate buyers. And equally some companies may decide that they prefer to work with their local utility and think about how the local utility can actually offer them a green tariff. For. For the operations.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:So it doesn't have to be A-A-P-P-A, you know, but these are, these are quite complex, both contracts and negotiations. Is there a case for saying that these should be simplified?
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:Yes and no. Okay. So. Really, it depends on what type of company we're talking about. So if it is a small to medium company, then their appetite to sign complex deals and negotiate for six to nine months to have one deal signed is not gonna be high. So for small to medium companies, we hope that standard corporate PPA agreements will become easier. However there will always be risks involved and every company has to evaluate those risks against the opportunities and benefits that they do bring. So, yes, we do need simpler deals for those companies. Equally, I think when we're talking about big multinational companies, then. They often have a very strong, um, business strategy, climate and energy strategy and, and sustainability strategy that determines how they want to source electricity for their operations. And hence, some of them might decide that a standard deal is the right thing for them and. Others may see that they need something a bit more specific that really fits to their operations, fits to the time of the day, for example, when they source the most power or also fits to their sustainability story. And what we often forget actually, is if we're looking a little bit beyond Europe, that when companies are sourcing electricity for their own operations, then. Often that doesn't only benefit their own operations, but also the people that live, for example, in the community around them. So many companies when they're sourcing electricity in, in economies that are just developing then they wouldn't only look to supply their own operations, but also see how they can help the local communities with supplying power to them. And hence these type of considerations will also influence. The decisions that that corporates take.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Sure. What are the current barriers, I mean, preventing the growth of, of, uh, of PPAs and, and how can they be, you know, reduced or, or, or taken away?
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:In Europe.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:In Europe, yeah. Specifically in Europe.
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:In Europe, we have, I think, two big barriers that if. Removed would unlock the potential of corporate sourcing of renewables even further. The first one is around regulatory barriers. So we now have at the European level the renewable energy directive number two. And re two. And he that enabled. Or gives the framework for, for national regulation to adjust in line with that European directive. So they're the barriers really, how quickly and how thoroughly will the European countries implement the European regulation. And you know, some of them. Are already compliant, others are not compliant at all. And hence, it's gonna take a little bit of waiting and seeing on who will be the markets that are implementing it first, hence opening up to give more choice for corporate buyers to purchase electricity there. The second item that is really important to unlock the potential of, of corporate sourcing, of of renewable electricity is European market harmonization.'cause ultimately what a company wants to do is supply their operations now. Well, country, country barriers. Country borders, of course e exist from a political point of view. The electrons flow throughout Europe without consideration of where country ends and starts, of course. And hence the different market prices that we see across Europe. Make it difficult for companies who have, for example a load in in France. To supply that from, with power from Spain, Spain. And as companies are trying to, to purchase for their, for their operations from different facilities across Europe or maybe even, um, try to purchase from just one facility, like a big asset in, in one location and. Supplies several of the European country loads With that it really comes down to how different are the market prices of those two locations. And I'm not necessarily saying that it is a corporate buyer who has to take on that risk and manage that risk of the different market prices. It could also be done by the developer or by a third party, but. It's gonna be, there's have to be one party who, who deals with that risk. And hence that is one fact why we see not so many what we call cross border PPAs in Europe to date. Now if market harmonization will, will increase. And there there's, there's various factors of how, how that could be achieved and an increase and in interconnection between countries is one of them. Then. That risk will not go away. But it will become smaller.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:So that was gonna be my, my next question really is, um, part of the whole area Energy Union and, and what, what the commission is trying to do with, with, you know, with the clean energy package is also to, to boost cross-border links and border, cross border trading of electricity and, and gas. But, uh, sticking with electricity so that then what you're saying is. The barrier to doing similar moves in PPAs are the price differentials and the price spreads between the different markets. Are there other barriers preventing that from happening or how do you see those, those, um, barriers being, being removed?
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:Yeah, so. Number one barrier is, is the market price differences. And, um, ultimately those, those apply to what we call virtual PPAs in, in the form of a, of a basis risk or a hedge risk. Which means exactly. Taking away the market price differential so that the, the corporate buyer who, assuming that that corporate buyer wishes to have a hedged electricity cost for them. Then that is, is the biggest barrier. Now there is a second one that particularly also relates to virtual PPAs when it comes to IFRS accounting. So IRF. Lots
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:of, lots of jargon. Yes, lots of jargon. Um, and, and abbreviations. But yeah, absolutely. I think that's an important point though. Um, please, please go on.
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:So IRS is the accounting standard the international accounting standards that typically European companies would be applying and a virtual cross-border. PPA will introduce effectively derivative accounting into into a company's accounting under IFRS. And that is often something that, a CFO may or may not be feeling comfortable with. And hence some companies today to have decided that that is something that, uh, you know, they. Are not willing to take on. Um, but as I said, it, it is related to those companies who are under the IFRS accounting standard. Other companies, for example, particularly ones that are under the accounting standard used in the us gap. Another short abbreviation here. Will, will have an easier time because there, it doesn't necessarily immediately lead to a, to a derivative accounting.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:So there are many different types of PPAs. And what we are hearing at this event here, Inda, is a lot of talk of physical and virtual. How would you explain that difference to the man on, on the street then? Um, for example,
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:right. That's a good question. So. If we're talking about a direct PPA, then that effectively means that the power that is fed into the electricity grid from a renewable asset will be. Notionally transferred to the site where the corporate buyer is consuming the power and that is notionally transferred in a way that the system operator that is operating the electricity grid will make sure that that power gets. Stare. Now, what is important to understand is that it's not the exact electron, of course. Yeah. That has be fed into the grid. But the power is, is notionally in the transmission system flowing from, from one side to another side. So this is a
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:direct or physical PPA.
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:Exactly. And when we are talking about a virtual or synthetic PPA, then. That means effectively that it is a financial tri transaction. So there is no flow of a notional flow of cow from from A to B, but it's, it's simply a transaction that companies are designing to hedge their electricity cost. And so the operator will further on the renewable asset operator will further on feed the power into the grid. But will receive a price from the. Local wholesale market for that power, while the corporate buyer will keep on buying electricity from their local provider that they have always bought electricity from. And then the two parties will settle the difference between the two prices and the agreed PPA price in a way that the corporate buyer as well as the renewable asset developer have made a hedge for their position.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Okay. That, that. Thank you very much. I think, I think, I think, I think the man on the, the, yeah, I think you did it very well. You explained it very well there, Marianne. Finally just could you say about, say a few words about your organization, so W-B-B-C-S-D, what does the company do or the organization do?
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:So the World Business Council for Sustainable Development is a global CEO led organization with over 200 leading businesses who are working together to accelerate the transition to a more sustainable world. So what does that effectively mean is that we are trying to help our member companies be more successful and sustainable by focusing on the positive impact for their shareholders, for the environment and for societies. So. In short, we're trying to make sustainable business also the most profitable business.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Okay, perfect. Marina, thank you very much for, for joining the Monte podcast. That's all for this week listeners. We will be in Paris next week talking about French nuclear issues. So that's all from me. Goodbye. And
Mariana Heinrich, Manager, Climate and Energy, WBCSD:goodbye.
Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel:Yeah. And please follow us on Monte News and also on social media such as LinkedIn and Twitter. You can subscribe on. Spotify and on Apple Podcasts.