From turmoil to reset

In the last episode of 2020, a year of pandemic and economic turmoil, the Montel Weekly podcast takes listeners on a virtual tour around Europe with discussions about what lies ahead for the continent’s energy markets. We review this year’s key policy milestones, the drive to decarbonise Europe, the latest demand forecasts, and conclude with a plea for peace and love. 

Host: 

• Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel, 

Guests: 

• Andres Cala, Editor Iberia, Montel
• Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel
• Siobhan Hall, Correspondent Brussels, Montel
• Olav Vilnes, Chief Editor Nordic and Baltic region, Montel
• Nathan Witkop, Correspondent Germany, Montel

Transcript

Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster: 0:01

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Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 0:35

Hello listeners and welcome to the Montel Weekly podcast, bring You Energy Matters in an informal setting. In this final episode of 2020, we'll take you on a little tour around Europe to sum up what happened this year and to look forward into 2021 once hopefully. We leave COVID-19 behind us. Joining me in the first part of today's episode is Nathan Witkop Germany, correspondent at Montel and Siobhan Hall correspondent in Brussels. A warm welcome to you both. Siobhan, if I can start with you, what were the main events this year, do you think? Obviously COVID, but I dunno what, from a Brussels perspective, what were the main issues this year?

Siobhan Hall, Correspondent Brussels, Montel: 1:18

Obviously it's been a very unusual year, but actually I'm only gonna pick out one thing that is significant from this year that actually happened just this month, and that was EU leaders deciding to back having a target for the EU to cut its emissions by at least 55% on 90, 90 levels by 2030, and this endorsement by the EU leaders. We'll basically drive all the policy measures that we're expecting to come out next year. So it was a really significant agreement, and it still has to be made binding through negotiations with the European Parliament. But we already know that the European Parliament was pushing for a target of 6% below 90, 90 levels. So we can assume at this stage that. Minus at least 55% emissions target is going to be the absolute minimum of the emission cuts that we can expect the EU to sign up for.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 2:23

Excellent. Did COVID-19 slow down the wheels of the policymakers in Brussels? Did it have any kind of impact? Would you say Siobhan?

Siobhan Hall, Correspondent Brussels, Montel: 2:31

The EU quarter in Brussels was a lot quieter than it normally is, but actually no. The timetable pretty much went as. I would have expected, so everyone switched to Zoom meetings. I saw that the, it was the German Germany was in, had the EU presidency, which was driving the discussions on the 2030 climate target. And I heard that most of those. People stayed in Brussels. Unusually, most of the other delegations went away, but the German delegations stayed in Brussels and worked it out. So it was more difficult, but it didn't slow things down significantly.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 3:09

Oh, interesting. Okay. And Nathan, you are based in Bond, the former capital City or Germany or the Federal Republic of Germany. What were the main events in Germany this year?

Nathan Witkop, Correspondent Germany, Montel: 3:17

I could probably flow in there from what Shavonne was saying, 'cause. She did reference there the the German EU presidency. And I think if anything COVID, sped things up in terms of the green transition because yeah, we got this goal through this year. We also got through a massive stimulus and funding package and I think that kind of allowed countries like Poland to entertain these kinds of high ambitions. So I think we actually got a lot of movement this year. In part because of COVID, because this time around, in contrast to the the global financial crisis, there was a determination to build back better. And that, I think, facilitated a lot of ambition when it came to things like, okay, let's finally get the ball rolling on hydrogen. Let's get the ball rolling on offshore wind. This year's been a massive year in terms of targets for developing things like offshore wind and, the technologies that will complement renewables down the track. In Germany, of course probably the biggest standout thing for Germany alone was the coal exit law. This year, Germany passed this historic law to, to finally leave coal generation. It's a less ambitious perhaps than some countries pace of leaving coal, but you have to bear in mind. Just how central coal has been to Germany's economic development and how central it has been until very recently as well. Germany plans to close, its last 39 gigawatts of coal capacity by 2038, potentially as early as 2035. I personally think that it will probably end up leaving earlier as the pressure to leave will only mount over the coming years and. As we've seen this year, the goal itself seemed controversial because it looked as though. Germany could close a lot more coal, a lot more swiftly as we saw perhaps from the first round of tenders for the first plants that are supposed to leave the market this year.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 5:17

Was there anything that sort of surprised you in the tenders or anything interesting that came out of there, Nathan?

Nathan Witkop, Correspondent Germany, Montel: 5:22

What was interesting was as soon as they were announced, or as soon as the first round closed, Vattenfall already flagged yes, it had submitted its brand new. Mobo coal plant in the bids. So that's two 800 megawatt units. So 1.6 gigawatts of brand new hard coal capacity that was only built five years ago or so, or completed five years ago. It had already applied to receive compensation to close this year. So a stunning destruction of capital in a sense. But that says a lot about what utilities think the prospects of coal are in the coming years, if they're already closing some of the most efficient coal plants out there. So they flagged that, and then the results of the tenders became known at the start of this month. So in addition to vain files, moberg. A RW also submitted a bid successfully for its Vest Fallon E Unit, and that's almost another 800 megawatts, which means that together with Morborg around half the first round of tenders for hard coal plant closures for this year. Were highly efficient plants built within only the last five or six years. And it spoke volumes about how little room there is for coal in the future energy mix. If even. The utilities that own these things, think that brand new units won't be able to survive.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 6:50

No, that's fascinating. I think incredible moves. There may be, even if we get on the back of what Siobhan mentioned there, the 55% reduction in emissions, that we get very stiffer carbon prices. We could maybe see some of these. Units leave the market before 2038. But Siobhan, if I can turn to you again before we talk about next year, I know we've discussed this a little bit between ourselves in terms of hydrogen, but has the way that hydrogen, green hydrogen has shot to prominence, has that taken you by surprise at all?

Siobhan Hall, Correspondent Brussels, Montel: 7:20

Yes and no. It is really surprising seeing how something went from a very niche product even just a few years ago, and now it is. A massive billboards everywhere talking about hydrogen. It's really what everyone is interested in and one of the reasons is because hydrogen has the capacity in principle to replace a lot of the gas and oil demand, which means that the big oil majors are interested, which means there is a lot of money. Ready to flow into hydrogen and the European Commission and Germany is very keen on green hydrogen, which would be produced from renewable power, which is an interesting market driver for more renewable energy demand and more renewable energy production. And linking to what Nathan was saying. About developing offshore wind, which could be then used to produce green hydrogen on the coast and put into gas pipelines and sent to demand centers. So there's a lot of interaction between the hydrogen market or potential hydrogen market and renewable energy demand. But it's gonna take a while. They're incredibly ambitious Targets like to have six gigawatts of Electrolyzer capacity to produce green hydrogen by 2024, so not very far away. And going up from there, it'll be really interesting to see how that plays out because there is a potential, if there is renewable electricity needed for to produce hydrogen, and there's also renewable electricity needed to help with the minus 55% target. On electrifying new sectors and so on. Then that's a lot of new demand for electricity, renewable electricity, and so that could have an impact on prices.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 9:14

Absolutely. And if we look forward now, Siobhan, it's gonna be quite a busy six months, is it not in or maybe six to 12 months. Wouldn't you say in Brussels? What's on the agenda?

Siobhan Hall, Correspondent Brussels, Montel: 9:26

I'm going to say it is going to be a busy three years. Okay. Is what I'm going to say. Fair enough.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 9:30

Fair enough. Absolutely. Yeah. Fair.

Siobhan Hall, Correspondent Brussels, Montel: 9:31

You're referring to the fact that the commission will come in June, 2021 with a massive package of legislative proposals in order to make this. Minus 55% target achievable. Absolutely. And that's going to involve changing the EU emissions trading system. So that could have an effect on carbon prices. The goal would be to have an effect on carbon prices. It's about raising the targets for renewable energy and improving the eus energy efficiency. So again, that's going to be promoting renewable electricity, but also in heating and other sectors. Energy efficiency is likely to reduce demand. Like a higher energy efficiency target is likely to reduce demand more for gas, so renewable electricity would end up having a bigger share overall as fossil fuels reduce. There's also plans for a carbon border adjustment mechanism, which again is gonna be linked to carbon prices somehow, or the ETS and so on, and that's about making products produced in the EU under a stricter carbon regime. Ensuring they're still competitive with products produced outside the EU under less strict carbon regime. And the interesting thing there is that EU leaders want that mechanism in place by the 1st of January, 2023 at the latest. So normally it takes a couple of years to get new EU legislation agreed and in place, but that implies they want to go quickly on this package. So even though it's enormous. And they're looking at lots of different things. And I would normally say that means it's going to take at least a couple of years. It sounds like there's gonna be lots of intense work to make it ready quicker than it might normally be.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 11:20

Interesting, I think.'cause obviously it's gonna keep you very busy in the weeks and months ahead, Siobhan. But how about in Germany? What's on the agenda here? What can we expect in 2021?

Nathan Witkop, Correspondent Germany, Montel: 11:30

We still have to see what the rest of 2020 brings. Bearing in mind that as we speak, it's around halfway through December and we still don't have. A reform of the Renewable Energy Act agreed it has to go through. By the end of this year, we still have to clarify what's going to happen with all of the onshore wind turbines that started receiving feed in tariffs 20 years ago under the first Renewable Energy Act law. And those tariffs are due to roll off at the end of this year, and that means from next year we could start to see around four and a half gigawatts of old turbines. Simply retire unless it's clarified. What happens with how they can earn money. Because they're so old and because power prices took a very big hit this year, it's not clear if they can make enough money through PPAs. There's supposed to be some form of bridging mechanism agreed within the latest Renewable Energy Act reform to guide them through this period. So that they can be either updated and upgraded at the sites where they are into new wind turbines. But even there the issue is that new turbines don't necessarily have the, or can't necessarily get the same approval to exist where the old turbines are. Because nowadays wind turbines are significantly bigger goes with the efficiency and they don't necessarily have the same permitting. To be that close to settlements or wherever they're located. So there is a a mess. It's supposed to be cleared up with a reform of the EEG right now, but that reform still hasn't been agreed. It was supposed to be agreed in November, and the wind industry fears that we could lose above four gigawatts of wind next year. Very quickly unless something is agreed.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 13:17

Nathan and Siobhan, thank you very much for talking to us today. Listeners, it's time for part two of our whirlwind trip around Europe. In this part, we will talk to Chris Eales, editor France, Andres Kala, who's editor Spain and Olav Vilnes, who's chief editor for the Nordics and the Baltics. So a warm welcome to you, Chris, Andres and Olav.

Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel: 13:37

Thank you very much, Richard. It's always nice to come onto your podcasts.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 13:42

Excellent. I think if we can start with you, Olav. We are both sitting here in Oslo. The idea today is to talk a little bit about what happened this year and what were the important developments in the Nordic and Baltic markets. Of course, COVID is number one, but apart from COVID. What can you say, Olav?

Olav Vilnes, Chief Editor Nordic and Baltic region, Montel: 13:59

I think what everyone thinks well of when you go out of 2020, of course COVID is what everyone is talking about. But I think also if you talk about the power market in the Nordic region. Definitely the low prices. You haven't seen lower prices in this market for 20 years, and that's almost as long as it has ever since it has existed. Average prices around 10 euros. It was close to 41 year ago, and I looked at a 10 year average, which is close to 36 euros, so it just tells you the magnitude of the price. Low prices. That of course, has hit earnings of producers. It has caused concern for people who want to invest in the future if they can get us as well paid as they previously expected.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 14:38

But this is just a temporary blip. Do you think, or is this situation gonna last into 20 21, 22, 23?

Olav Vilnes, Chief Editor Nordic and Baltic region, Montel: 14:43

I think the bearishness is quite strong if you look at the next few years because there's a lot of wind coming online. A lot of new wind parks being invested across the region. You have high renewable targets in all Nordic countries. On top of that, we have seen very mild winters recently, so the demand is also quite low at wintertime. So I think in the short term. The risk of very low prices are high. If you look beyond 2025 into 2030, there's a lot of new demand coming in, so that can lift prices further out. We're talking about hydrogen, we're talking about data centers battery factories, even transport. We'll use a lot more electricity than it does today. So I think all those things are pointing to us maybe a more balanced power market 10 years from now. At least for the next few years, there will be a big surplus of power. So if it gets wet, mild, you will get low prices.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 15:32

Yeah. And just looking out the window, it's wet, mild gray and pretty depressing really.

Olav Vilnes, Chief Editor Nordic and Baltic region, Montel: 15:35

It is. I haven't used my skis for two years almost then in Oslo. And that's that's quite unusual.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 15:40

Absolutely. Some of the, a lot of the market is putting all its bets on a very, so some very bullish forecasts for demand in terms of what you've just mentioned

Olav Vilnes, Chief Editor Nordic and Baltic region, Montel: 15:48

they do and they also vary quite a lot. Really, they do vary. They are disagree a bit on, on what will drive prices, but of course, the price formation in the Nordic power markets will very much follow that in Germany and continental Europe because you have increased transmission capacity, there would be a lot of new cables coming in. You had the first, this autumn, first ever connection between Norway and Germany, which has already led to some high spot prices in Southern Norway during hours with a lot of import when there was a lot of export. And there was high prices in in Germany. New cable to the UK next year. And altogether, of course, these things will help balance out prices and also give them some support.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 16:24

If we move over from Norway to the Nordic region to France, Chris, what were the big stories in 2020, of course, apart from COVID?

Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel: 16:31

If you want me to talk about France apart from COVID, then I'll have nothing to say. Okay then if you must Chris, do touch on COVID then what we have here, it's called the COVID rhythm. It goes like this. Fear, chaos, confusion, spike. That's what we've had in France all year because of COVID. And that is what is likely to carry on, as far as I can tell, because nuclear power in France is so important and it's so important for the rest of Europe. So we can't ignore the COVID impact. Of course not. I have about it because. Such a big part to play in prize formation.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 17:07

So Chris, that's a nice catchy phrase you've got there. Can we have the individual components? So the fear, what's the fear of? Fear of the virus or fear of,

Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel: 17:13

yeah, first of all, of course fear. You've got this terrible disease, you know what's gonna happen, we dunno. Then you have chaos because EDF suddenly says hang on, look, power demand has fallen, LUMS. 20%. So we have to adapt our nuclear reactive planning for all this. We can't use all these reactors, so we have to turn all down. And then you have confusion because the market doesn't know what the hell is going on. And you have different messages coming from media telling you tomorrow potentially we're gonna have, in one example, we're gonna have four reactors that will be switched off. But then nothing of the sort happens. On saying we want some clarity from the producers about what is actually gonna happen, and all this leads to spikes in prices. But doesn't that happen every year? What's different? Doesn't happen to the same extent, does it? You don't have a 20% fall in power demand. You don't have one of Europe's leading power producers cutting their forecast nuclear output by 30% to 300 hours. Those kind of things do not happen in a normal year. Perhaps you can argue. Yes, and the COVID has exaggerated everything else. That's the underlying issues in France around peak demand, that's for sure. And will continue to do I think that's been the major driver right through the year, and continues to be.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 18:34

So are there any bright spots though, Chris? Is it all a bit gloomy and chaotic and confusing?

Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel: 18:39

Yeah, there, there is a bright spots actually if you like, not that long ago. EDF actually said in terms of unplanned outages, that their reactors that there will fewer. Unplanned outages in 2020. So it was up till about November, I think, than there were the year before, which is quite surprising in a way. So that's interesting. They say they've learned, they're learning from the past and difficulties they've had meeting. Aging challenges and maintenance work. However, for that to remain. Of course, unplanned outages are things that are unforeseen, I might suddenly explode. Now we can't prevent that.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 19:15

Thanks for that. I think I'd like to go a little bit further South. Andres, if we can ask you about 2020 in the Spanish or Iberian market was apart from COVID, what were the other major issues? Or was it just COVID like it was in France?

Andres Cala, Editor Iberia, Montel: 19:29

Richard no pun intended, but the sun shines brighter in Spain than in France, apparently.

Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel: 19:34

I can, I just, I don't think that's true at all.

Andres Cala, Editor Iberia, Montel: 19:37

Yeah. Co COVID obviously must be part of the story, but we, in power, we've recovered demand rather swiftly considering just how bad it's been. At least in two occasions, in the two ways wild. The rest of Europe today is grappling with the second wave. We're already making plans for the third wave, so to speak, but it's been resilient. Turning in power, gas demand ha has never fully recovered. Mostly just because Spain is an export driven economy, which means, yeah, industrial output is still struggling to get back to normal levels. Just because of the economic the global economic downturn, but it get there undoubtedly and I think highlight of 20. The government's plans. And this applies also not just to Spain, but also to Portugal. How much of the Iberian region plans would be, will come to fruition. And we had very ambitious plans ahead of the COVID pandemic. And then in regards to green capacity installations to green tenders, to regulatory objectives, we had a lot of plans and COVID had ran the risk of derailing a lot of this. In any case, when we actually met all these objectives on the regulatory front we act the government managed to pass all the necessary to grease the wheels, so to speak, to set everything in motion. We redirected the huge stimulus money that will be forthcoming next year. Most of it will go into, yeah, the energy transition, which is encouraging. That's where everything is riding on it's not just 2020 or 2021. We're talking about the Spanish plant for a full industrial re revolution. So to speak, and the entire economic apparatus is shifting gears and it's all around energy. A lot of it is green, obviously there's a lot of solar, a lot of wind. We're even starting to consider offshore wind, which it wasn't even the case even a year ago. So it seems there'll be smooth sailing. Yeah. Going forward as I said the tenders are welcome. Addition three gigs a year, three gigawatts a year of green power. That's a huge not just huge target, but that's just tenders concerning everything else we could have as much as six gigawatts a year. For the next at least six to seven years. And that's huge surge power generation. That will go a lot of it to hydrogen. Obviously we've, our demand will not grow at the same pace. That's without even considering COVID. But it will go into hydrogen, it will go into storage. It will be, it will go into re yeah, regear that this farms economy.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 22:20

Excellent. So it seems there's huge amount of development going on in, in the Iberian market. There are very exciting times and. Maybe, I hope some of our listeners are aware we've also expanded journalistically in these markets, hiring new people because we are so keen on, on covering these very fast moving events. But and Andreas, if I can ask you, what would you wish for in 2021? Energy wise?

Andres Cala, Editor Iberia, Montel: 22:42

Energy wise, I think just a continuation. I think the entire market has been very. Positively struck by the, yeah. The ability, not just of the government, because at the end of the day, obviously this is a parliament that has reached a consensus. It is just about the only thing that there's political consensus in Spain. I think the, my wish in that of the energy sector would be a continuation of that, both regulatory wise, money flowing, private investments, flowing, foreign investments flow is flowing strongly. Domestic investment is flowing. Industrial parties meeting its goals. We, yeah it's the whole shuffle that we've been going through, not just because of COVID, but actually for an entire decade. It's finally, it seems to be coming to an end and if anything COVID catalyzed that it allowed our leaders to realize. We need to get our act together. And they did. And I think what I wish for is a continuation of that, not just next year, but going forward.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 23:41

That's fair enough. How about in the Nordics olav, what are gonna be the chief drivers in 2021? More of the same. The weather oversupply

Olav Vilnes, Chief Editor Nordic and Baltic region, Montel: 23:49

is always the weather, isn't it? It's last year we had a quite normal hydro situation at this time of the year. This year we have, 20 tet hours in surplus of storage. So it means low prices. So I guess if you ask a power producer, what he would ask for is a very cold winter with a little no snow, no rain, just very high consumption. But of course, interestingly, there's also a lot of of things happening in the in the political space as well, which is, can be quite interesting. Next year we have the Swedish another nuclear actor that shuts down at the end of this year. We have already seen that prices can spike quite quickly there when there is a shortage of nuclear capacity in the south of Sweden. And the price differences internally in the Nordic region has been huge this year, varying from less than 10 in Norway to 30 euros almost in Finland and Denmark and southern Sweden. So I think that for a journalist it's nice, it's interesting with all these variations, the ups and downs. But of course for market participants, probably more stability in a sense and and more clarity. But at the moment, there are many uncertainties. Weather is one of them. COVID, another one. And then of course, the carbon market, which also spiraling and it's affecting all the power markets around it. Absolutely. What would you wish for 2021? All love. I would wish for a very sunny year. I don't use to make many wishes but I think my main wish would be a lot of news, an interesting year, controversial statements and prices that goes up and down so we can have a new story every read every day.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 25:07

Absolutely. And on, on a, now we are. Just about to hire a new Nordic reporter as well for your desk. So I think that's great news, so that will hopefully, I'm sure that will amplify the nature of the reporting that we're doing and increase the coverage of the, this very key markets. How about in France? What's gonna, what's your view of 2021? Is it all, is it more chaos, more confusion, more fear? Or are we coming to more of, to an even keel?

Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel: 25:29

I don't think we're coming onto to an even keel. I hope, at least I hope we're not. Otherwise, we'll have nothing to write about. What I can safely say. What I think I can predict is that this time next year, all this will like last. Other than that, I think that, we'll see the back end of, and then we get on with the main event, which is. Destruction continuing of, but no the usual drivers in France will be the weather with January and February looking very tight. So that's people looking at that and possible changes to nuclear regulation in France, the sale of nuclear output with, the decision expected on negotiations between the EC and EDF over a new nuclear reg regulation and potentially a change in the structure of EDF. And any changes to Aaron, the Aaron rate on market drivers, so that's something to look out for next year as well. We'll, there's a large number of 10 year visits. There are four 40 year visits. 40 year visits next year. That means that their, the fourth, 10 year visits, just to confuse people completely, that's quite important because the 40 years, reactors were designed to last 40 years, so if you have a fourth, 10 year visit, that means that they've been around for at least 40 years. So you've got four of those. Those tend to be very long and could be complicated. So that could, that's. Something to look out for and that could be a driver because that could mean more nuclear and availability next year.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 26:56

Are they spread out over the year or are they all in one particular, I dunno the

Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel: 26:59

dates, I haven't got them off the top of my head, but it's quite a volume that is in total, there are six, 10 of four of them are 40 year ones. So that, I think that's quite interesting. What else? Yeah, the EPR discussion will go on, although there's no decision expected next year on that's not coming until after the elections in 2022. But this ongoing discussion about whether France can build new EPRs, that's obviously interesting and a driver in terms of future power mix and how France intends to meet or to continue being able to export its power, et cetera, et cetera. Yeah, and along with these, I talked about potential changes to EDF. Along with that, we are seeing strikes yesterday, unions union backed strikes, cut power, French power capacity by nine gigawatt. These strikes are gearing up now. That's quite significant and there's a real opposition in French Parliament and among energy unionists to the planned restructuring. VDF. So watch out for that.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 28:00

Chris, what would if I asked you the same as asked all over Andres, what would you wish for in, in 2021?

Chris Eales, Editor France, Montel: 28:05

I'd probably wish that, I can keep my job. We'll come back to that. Yeah, no, I wish peace and love. You know what else is there?

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief Europe, Montel: 28:14

Okay, Chris. Thanks for a nice roundup of what's happening in France. That's all listeners from the Montel Weekly podcast for 2020. Many thanks to Andres, Chris, Olav as well as Nathan and Sivan for this special outlook and review episode. Please tune in to the Monte Weekly podcast every Friday. We'll be back in early January and remember to keep up to date with all that's happening in the energy markets on Monte News. You can subscribe to us on Apple Podcast, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from. And in the meantime, wishing everybody a very merry Christmas and a happy New year.