Plugged In: the energy news podcast
Coming from the heart of the Montel newsroom, Editor-in-Chief, Snjolfur Richard Sverrisson and his team of journalists explore the news headlines in the energy sector, bringing you in depth analysis of the industry’s leading stories each week.
Richard speaks to experts, analysts, regulators, and senior business leaders to the examine not just the what, but the why behind the decisions directing the markets and shaping the global transition to a green economy.
New episodes are available every Friday.
Plugged In: the energy news podcast
Is solar set for a bright future?
The Montel energy podcast – market insights from people in the know. In this week’s episode, we take a close look at the outlook for solar power in Europe. The sector says “solar is back in business”, but is its optimism justified?
Hosts:
- Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel,
- Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster.
Guests:
- Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe,
- Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar.
Hello listeners and welcome to the Montel Weekly podcast, bringing New Energy Matters in an informal setting. I'm Richard Sverrisson
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:and I'm an Anna Siwecka.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Anna is a radio journalist and a podcast specialist. Today we are looking at solar power and the way it is changing energy markets. It's come on massively in the last few years, and it's now the cheapest form of power generation. It can be built without subsidies, and as such, it's quite a threat to the business models of many traditional utilities for several reasons.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:Please don't be mysterious. Tell me the reasons, Richard.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Well, firstly, demand for power and gas will fall as people install solar panels and that maybe becomes cheaper than what they're receive receiving from the supplier. So the incentive there to stick to expensive energy companies who many are perceived as, as not being the good guys in in the market, then I think you will find an incentive for people to install their own panels and be in controller of their own power. Indeed they can also sell it to each other. I mean, we are seeing pilot projects in several possible, like the Netherlands and elsewhere, where peer to peer platforms are emerging and use of solar power. They have the excess, they have an excess of, of energy and they'll sell it to the neighbor or to someone a hundred miles away. So these are at a very early stage. They're quite embryonic, but it's a very exciting prospect and, and a development for all the way to integrate solar, solar power into the market. But also there's the, the aspect here that solar obviously generates in the middle of the day and. And traditionally these have been the times when gas fired units have been active, so the demand for these gas fired plants is falling. And so the profitability of these plants as well for they're often the backbone or, or they have been utilized by the utilities in the past, but that's all changing
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:so richer. Where are Delia traditional utilities doing?
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Well actually, you know, some are, are responding quite well to this. I mean, accidentally, they're, they're creating ancillary services. They're installing these solar panels. Some companies are installing in combination with batteries and EVs, and I think markets, well, like the UK and Germany are certainly at the forefront here. But the potential for other parts and maybe more sunnier parts of Europe is, is quite, quite amazing. Even IKEA has home installation PV kits that you can put on your roof. So.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:Do it yourself. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. DIY solar. Exactly. DIY
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:energy. Yeah. Absolutely.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:You mentioned some of the markets. What are the biggest markets in the European Union? I've heard a little bit of an excitement in Iberia in Spain, the solar, uh, power market over the reviving after di abolition of the controversial tax on, um, sun. Absolutely. Let's say that 7% was that
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Yeah, absolutely. That's one reason. And they also were unfortunate and they took some retrospective changes to the regulatory environment. So they cutting the subsidies that they'd granted before the onset of the economic crisis or the financial crisis in around 2010, that they granted much higher solar subsidies than they cut it. So yes, you're absolutely right. It is a, it is a very growing market, uh, exciting at the moment. There's still only around seven gigawatts installed with Italy, about 20. And Germany, by far the leading market with, uh, close to 50 gigawatts. And, and you know, Germany is not as sunny in some parts of the country, but generally Italy, Spain and France show massive potential.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:And, uh, which country do you do you reckon need to push? Well. Hmm. Interesting. Yeah. Or it's like underusing, the potential that they have.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Well, I think France is one country, but I think one of the interviewees that I interviewed recently, uh, will come back to that and they, you know, you can hear it from the expert later in this podcast.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:And where are the biggest growth areas, not only countries, but like, um,
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:well, according to Solar Power Europe, which is a, a lobby group for, for the solar industry, Germany added nearly three gigawatts last year, which is close to 70% rise year on year. So massive growth there. Um, the Netherlands added 1.4 gigs and France 900 megawatts. Italy installed about half a gigawatts last year. And actually it, it's interesting, the, the plans in the Netherlands, again, the Northern European country, uh, are quite surprising. They're very ambitious. Uh, I spoke to, uh, one of the members of their solar industry, um, recently, and they said they plan to have 23 gigawatts installed by 2023. Up from four gigawatts at the end of last year. So that's enormous. That's massive. That's massive. And you think, oh, where's it all gonna go? Are they gonna put them on canals? Are they gonna, you know, um, it's a tiny country. Exactly. And where's they, but he assured me they could put it on, on top of, um, you know, canals or waterways even on the side of airports or roads. So he said boats as well. Of course. A lot of canal boats. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:What type of solar is there?
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Well, I think there are two main elements which we've touched on earlier. There's, there's the rooftop, so householders or commercial buildings that put pull panels on their, on their roofs. And there's also the massive utility scale or the kind of power plants, which can range from like 20 megawatts up to uh hu several hundred. So that's very common in sort of desert areas. I think Chile has been a, been a front runner in, in developing those industrial scale or utility scale solar. So those, the main types, but, uh, who knows? Um, maybe we'll be, we'll be driving around cars with, uh, with panels on the roofs and then charging our batteries as we go along.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:And, uh, tell me something about the policy environment. What's happening here?
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Well, our guest interviewees will, will go into the details here. Um, and they're, they're the experts really, but I think. A key aspect here is, is what's happening in, as you mentioned, the tax on the sun, changing that. Then there's also enabling prosumers. So prosumers are the ones that produce and consume. So enabling them to access the market and be integrated into the market, um, is now. Enshrined in the next renewable energy directive. Now, I think that could have far reaching effects in the market. But interestingly, the UK just recently, at the end of last year, I think it was decided that the producers or the households that have these panels cannot sell their excess power to the grid. So they could just have to provide the excess power freely to the grid. Now I think that's in direct contravention of this new legislation because the legislation says that renewable self consumers individually or through an aggregator, are entitled to remuneration. Now of course, Brexit makes this all very complicated as well. Cloudy. Cloudy, exactly. And, uh, very opaque. So. But still, I think the directive will, will apply in large parts, but of course, parliament could make, uh, changes. So I think that's an area that we all see, you know, could, could, could develop in many different ways going forward. I.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:I'm very interested in who you manage to speak to when it comes to our experts on today's podcast.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:So it's Solar Power Europe, which we mentioned earlier in the pod. They have an annual convention, and I spoke to Sonya Dunlop, who's the policy advisor there, and I also spoke to Leia Sharpier, who's the head of European regulatory fairs and government relations at First Solar, which is a company that provides PV and solar energy solutions.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:Female voices today.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Absolutely. Solar is very three of them. I'm outnumbered like solar. It's very unusual. Very unusual in an energy, energy world. Well, I'm
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:very happy. I'm very happy because this makes our podcast and our production here much more diverse. So good. And I'm not
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:unhappy. Uh, with me, Sonia Dunlop, senior policy advisor at Solar Power Europe. Welcome, Sonya.
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:Thank you. Thank you very much, Richard. Yeah.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Uh, Sonya's gonna tell us all about the, the development of solar in Europe and, and the outlook for it generally, uh, in the coming years now. Um, Sonya, we're at your annual, uh, conference. Can you tell us a little bit about the sentiment in the market at the moment, uh, in the solar market?
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:Absolutely. For the solar PV market in Europe at the moment, the sentiment is really one of solar is back in business. Mm-hmm. We had two very good pieces of news last year. Mm. The first was the removal of the minimum import Bryce EU import duties on PV modules being imported from China, from Malaysia, from Taiwan. That means that overnight, the cost, cost of PV in Europe dropped. By a considerable amount, and it means that suddenly that unlocks new markets, new deployment suddenly just shifts the business case and the economics of PV all over the eu. So that was one piece of good news last year. The other piece of good news is that the EU passed this package of legislation called the Clean Energy Package. Hmm. Which will make, uh, electricity markets, uh, more fit, more, more, more able to accept renewables and more able to accept solar all over the eu. Hmm. And has mandated that by 2030 the EU has to reach a 32% renewables target. Mm-hmm. So that and many other things besides in this clean energy package combined with the MIP means that we are very optimistic and we predict. Growth in the European PV market going forwards, steady growth over the next five years, which is, is, is fantastic because if we look back over the last five years, we've been through a period of, of, of stagnation, of decline actually. And now that we are seeing these new ways of driving solar demand, we are. Confident that we're gonna see growth in the next couple of years in the European PV market.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:And, uh, costs are, are very low, aren't they? I know we've heard today at, at your annual conference, which is kind of explains some of the hub up maybe in the background listeners. Um, but. We've heard that it's actually cheaper than, uh, than all other forms of, of power generation at the moment.
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:Of course, it varies from market to market in Europe, it varies from country to country, and it varies depending on whether you are comparing utility scale solar with the wholesale market price or. Roof mounted solar with the retail market price. Mm-hmm. But yes, in a lot of countries around Europe, the levelized cost of electricity, of generating electricity from PV is well below the wholesale market price.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Mm-hmm. Italy space. So it's good. Good business sense,
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:good business sense. If you can make the financing work, if you can find a long term offtaker, if you can, be sure that someone will take your power at a good price over a long period of time. In
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:the form of A PPA, for example, in the
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:form of A PPA, for example, or in the form of some kind of government support scheme, a tender, whatever it might be.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Hmm. Excellent. I mean, but where are the growth areas now? So geograph geographically in, in, in Europe, and where do you see the, the major kind of hotspots, if you like,
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:growth areas. We just heard from the Netherlands is a market, a small country, but big PV market. Actually last year they were over one gigawatt in size. There's a lot of potential for both roof mounted and ground mounted solar. There a lot of interest and, and what we're seeing is these new markets are becoming more and more relevant as levelized cost of electricity comes down. Mm-hmm. And. The situation around subsidy scheme stabilizers. Mm. But also we're seeing that Spain is garnering a lot of interest as well. Big tenders forecasted there. For the next couple of years, the government there has really put, pulling out all the stops to meet its 2020 renewables targets.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:They've had some re regulatory issues there in the past, haven't they? So, and they've
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:had some regulatory issues. Which means that, um, the sun tax, which was for a long time, really impeded deployment, uh, self-consumption systems there is now, has now been removed. So, so there's a lot of good news, but it's not just that in France we've got some big tenders happening as well. Some big government tenders in
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:France is a little bit behind, isn't it?
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:France is a little bit behind, but we do forecast it to be a good size market in the long term. Mm-hmm. France for a long time had a slightly strange feed and tariff system, but France is really back in business as well now, I think. Mm-hmm. And. And so we are really excited about all these markets, and Germany, of course, is a stalwart of the European, uh, PV market. So, you know, Germany, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Italy, also a very promising market for PPAs, potentially as long as some issues around credit risks get resolved.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Mm-hmm.
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:There's a lot of interesting markets going on and,
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:but what you mentioned both rooftop. And commercial utility scale, PV or solar, where is the bigger growth area? Or is it happening in, in both or in all three, uh, segments? You've
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:gotta think of them as totally separate markets actually. Mm-hmm. There are two sides to the pv. Phenomenon there is the utility scale, big Grand Mount Solar Farms that are com, that are feeding their power into the grid and competing in the wholesale market against other power stations. And then there's the self-consumption market. Mm. The calculations that power consumers are doing. And the calculation is basically this. Can I produce electricity cheaper myself by putting solar on my roof? Or is it cheaper to buy it from my retailer at the, at the retail price? Mm-hmm. And if it's cheaper to put it on your roof, that's what a lot of people are doing because they know they can save money on their electricity bills. Mm. So there are, it's two totally separate. So
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:the retailers, retailers must be quaking in their boots here a bit.
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:Well, what we would hope is that the big utilities that are going through a period of transformation anyway would see that their business needs to change. They need to go beyond just selling kilowatt hours and kilowatt hours and kilowatt hours. They need to start offering additional services, getting a stronger relationship with their customers, therefore, and offering solar as an add-on. To the, the services they provide at the moment? Some do,
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:of course. I mean, some, some do,
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:some do, absolutely. But we want to see more and more of them doing that because they have an advantage in the sense that they already have the relationship with the customers. So if they choose to do this and do this properly, they could really make this work.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:You touched upon an interesting area here, Sonya, which is consumers. Choosing to put panels on the roof instead of going with a retailer. But what does that mean for the grid? For example, the local networks, if, if they're not part of the no network or they're not paying for the upkeep of the grid, the local network who does pay, then the people who can't afford to infor in, you know, uh, put up solar panels, they're, they're the ones who end up footing the bill is, I mean, where, where do you stand here? This is the sort ofum argument that may be. They're, you know, running away without paying the, paying the bills for the upkeep of the grid.
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:This is an argument we've had many times before. Mm-hmm. And the thing is, what we want is we want all power consumers to have access to the benefits of having their own self-generated, self-consumed solar electricity. Not just the rich, but also the poor, not just people who live in single. Family houses or in single occupancy buildings, but multi occupancy buildings too. Mm-hmm. And I think one of the really exciting things that has happened in the PV market in Europe over the last couple years is that we've seen these new business models emerge that allow people who live in flats that allow. Hmm. Office buildings that have many different tenants in them that allow shopping centers that have lots of different shops renting and using electricity within them, allow those kinds of buildings to also deploy PV on their roofs and then submeter that PV to the different tenants within the building.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Okay. Interesting. So there are models out there dealing with this.
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:Absolutely. In Germany, in uh, in France, in other countries, digitalization and smart metering is a catalyst for being able. To Submeter and then sub sell the PV electricity on, on a shared roof to multiple tenants within it
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:to reach the eus 2050 targets. Solar growth need to, needs to expand quite massively. We've heard today at, at this event that this means up to 30 to 40 gigawatts a year. I, I mean, is this achievable?
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:Absolutely. It's achievable and I think the market and the economics of solar will deploy that almost on its own. Mm-hmm. One of the points that was made in the event is. We have to make sure that we integrate that into the grid effectively and that we, we build a flexible energy system that is able to accept and to absorb such high shares of variable renewable energy. I think there are two things. There is a 2030 targets and then there's do a 2050 target where we hope the EU will set a target of being carbon neutral, net zero carbon by 2050. One point to make is that in many of the modeling that we've seen done on how to get to net zero carbon by 2050 across the eu, solar does not play as much of a part as we think it should. And we think it's because of this, because a lot of the, the statistical models that try and forecast how to get to net zero carbon are not sophisticated enough to take into account distributed small scale generation of on domestic roofs, on commercial industrial roofs and so on and so forth. These models generally look at big projects and so and so we are trying to commission. A new model, which does indeed take into account both distributed solar but also new technologies such as, for example, trackers and bifacial modules. So double-sided modules that have a higher level of energy output.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Very interesting. It's certainly a much more complex market than when my mother put solar panels on her roof in 1984.
Sonia Dunlop, senior policy adviser, Solar Power Europe:Wow. 1984. Absolutely. That is one of the pioneers
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:in the solo tv. It made the world. It's a very, very hot. We also spoke to Leia er, who's head of European Regulatory Affairs and is involved in lobbying at, at the European level for a company. Not so much the association. So she tells us more what's happening on the side of the companies and how the market's looking. There I have with me Leia. Who is head of regulatory affairs at, uh, first Fur Solar? Uh, Leah, welcome.
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:Thank you.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Could you tell me a little bit about First Solar? What do you do?
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:Sure. Um, first Solar is a, well, the official terminology is we're an energy systems company, so we manufacture MO modules, but we're also vertically integrated. So. We do solar development in a number of regions. We can be EPCs, we offer o and m services. Mm-hmm. And we're a bit of an exception in the solar industry in the sense that we also offer our own recycling scheme. Mm-hmm. I, uh, represent them in, in Brussels with the regulators. I follow regulatory developments, making sure that everything, both in terms of. Energy and environmental policy takes into account the reality of the solar industry, um, as seen globally and not just European, in a European level.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Can you tell us a little bit about that regulatory environment here in Brussels and how, how receptive are they to, to companies yourself?
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:I think generally they're quite interested in what the, the solar industry has to say. I mean, I think we're, we're entering a phase that's quite interesting. Um, historically, you know, the discussion with renewables was about. Cities, and it was about how the government could drive demand. Now we're gonna be entering a discussion which is much more about disruption. Hmm. So how we're challenging certain incumbents and how they do things. How quickly they might have to actually take certain old installations offline, what that means for the grid, what that means for formally vertically integrated utilities who don't necessarily have the same appetite for change, other organizations. Do. So I'm actually really looking forward to this next phase of dialogue. Mm-hmm. Um, but it's always, you know, a little bit tricky when you're forcing people to think differently. Of course. And also I think the regulator needs to maybe come to realization with the fact that they're going to be less in the driving seat and more about creating, um, the right, the environment that is conducive to this new wave of changes. So it'll, it'll require a certain subtlety and diplomacy to make sure that happens. But I think, you know, these are, it's an exciting time to be in solar and I think the, the regulators feel that as well. Mm. Um, you just have to deal with people who've been doing things for a certain amount of years. Of course, of course. Their willingness to go about it differently.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:So we're at the, um, at the, the Solar Power Europe summit, the annual summit. So that maybe explains some of the background noise here. Sure. Um. But you talked, uh, you, you mentioned here that disruption. Are they the, the, the traditional utilities or the traditional energy companies, they're being hit from both sides here in a way, aren't they? They're being hit from the demand side where people are installing rooftop installations. Mm-hmm. And also from generally utility scale, uh, installation. So can you tell me a little bit about the, you know, what does that mean for the, the market going forward in terms of the structure, uh, and, and the role of. Disruptors such as yourself?
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:I think most utilities see it as a, as an opportunity. I mean, they, they've identified that renewables is a growth market and that they can't afford to not be part of it. Mm-hmm. Um, you're dealing with relatively big bureaucracies when you're dealing with utilities though, who sometimes, you know, you will have some people who are convinced to absolutely understand what needs to be done on the renewable front, but they're also responsible for other assets. And they have to play a relatively uncomfortable balancing act at times. Um, it makes it sometimes a little bit difficult to know where they stand. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, you know, some of these utilities have very specific relationships with the authorities. Mm-hmm. You know, some of them are partially owned by national, uh, entities. So their appetite for change will also be defined by how the regulator itself sees things. Um, I'd say it, you really see the full. Array of those realities and the discussions you have on a daily basis. I think, you know, times are changing. There's always, you know, opportunity and risk in, in any change. Um, when,
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:but when you mentioned utility scale, is this something from anything from say a hundred megawatts to or even heard, discussed, like one gigawatts? I mean, sure. I mean, is that something that, uh, can be done in Europe? It can be done. And where can it be done? I mean, there's not, there's not, I mean, they needs enormous amounts of land, doesn't it? So
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:we've had a, an interesting discussion internally with my colleagues. Realistically, the idea of having artificial limits is maybe not the most constructive way of having this discussion about how big utility scale can be. I mean, in a large extent it's defined by, you know, your land availability. If you've got a big site, consider a big project that's. Where you're gonna get most money for your investment. If you've got a series of smaller sites that you could all build together, well, maybe that's the best way. Mm. And we find it's usually better controlled in the context of, you know, what's your land, what are your permitting requirements? What is, you know, the level of interest from the local communities, how close or not you are to, to people living? And then find the best economic outcome within these parameters. So instead of choosing abstractly 20, 30, a hundred megawatts. Mm. Which won't necessarily apply to all the realities. Mm. Define very clearly in permitting what is allowed for specific circumstances, and have that be the guide more than just some abstract notion of you can only participate in French tender if you're putting together a project on 30 megawatts. Yeah. But what if you're, what if your land can accommodate 50? Why put together two projects? Sure,
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:sure. Absolutely. So it's very context dependent and dependent on the, on the environment. And I
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:think in a way, you know, we, we are really dealing with solar being the cheapest energy source, you know, today and increasingly in the future, where the moments where your cost is your main driver have a very open discussion about scale and what that may mean. If cost is less of a driver, then maybe, you know, other parameters come into play. Mm-hmm. But I, um, I think there's a little bit of work and education and open discussions to be had about utility scale. I mean, we are talking about taking offline a lot of aging assets. Mm-hmm. You're not going to replace those gigawatts of coal factories or nuclear power plants with rooftop installations. Let's just, you know, be very honest about the fact that that's a myth. And then discuss very openly what is acceptable and what is not, and how big certain projects can get. Um, you know, if you are worried about having a dip in your, um, in your energy supply mm, you might wanna just put, you know, a few big installations out there. That's probably the most cost effective way of doing it. Mm. If you don't have the land to do so, then you'll be looking at another solution. What we just want to raise to do is raise awareness of the fact that that is probably your cheapest, lowest cost solution. Mm-hmm. So be very honest about that when you're looking at the options going forward.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:So the issue of, uh, acceptability layer that you, you mentioned when you, when you were leading a, the panel discussion very well, may, may add. Thank you. Um, is it more acceptable to have to be living next to a solo? Farm then to, uh, wind Park, would you say? I,
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:I am not that familiar with the, with the wind discussion. I think in, in a way there's been more experience with large scale wind mm-hmm. Than there has been with large scale solar in Europe. Mm-hmm. So maybe they're, you know, showing signs of what's to come with solar. I mean, no matter what we need to learn from their experience. Mm-hmm. Um, so far, I don't think acceptability of sore has been much of an issue. Mm-hmm. But as we're looking at the volumes, you know, France has. An objective of 4.5, uh, gigawatts of solar deployed by year. Mm-hmm. This is really going to change the, the proximity people have with the technology. Mm-hmm. And we need to be prepared to have a discussion with people who are going to be living a lot closer to these sites and it's gonna be part of their everyday life. Maybe there is a difference of acceptability. I just think that overall you owe it to the communities you're moving into to do a certain amount of education with them. Sure.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:You mentioned the 4.5 gigawatt. Annually growth in France. Mm-hmm. Is that, is that achievable?
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:France is having a hard time actually meeting, you know, the deployment of one gigawatt. The French market is really interesting to us. Mm-hmm. Um, it's been, it's been predictable at a time when a lot of European markets were not, you knew exactly what were the volumes that were going to be auctioned off. The auction process was relatively straightforward. You knew what came in and your time to deploy it and to build the projects actually also made sense for, for utility scale. So we have a pretty good experience with the French tenders. We're really looking forward to the fact that these deployment numbers will happen. Um, I think that's what the authorities are too, and even the French solar industry. Um, how fast that will happen or not, I think will depend on a lot of, you know, reducing delays around permitting, grid, uh, connections. I mean, what I hear from the French government is that they're genuinely interested in tackling these, how quickly it will be done. I mean, it's, the proof is always in eating the pudding, right? Absolutely.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Absolutely. I. What are the other challenges going forward Le for the, for the industry, uh, as a whole,
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:pricing and lack of transparency around pricing is always really tricky.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Pricing for, for? For modules? For modules, okay. And sales. So,
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:you know, I mean, with the hundred pound, you know, the thousand pound gorilla, which is the Chinese PV industry. Mm. Really setting the tone, uh, of, of what, you know, pricing and volumes will be available globally. Um, managing to be competitive, managing to put enough money aside to plan your expansions mm-hmm. And sign long-term contracts. All of these things. Um, are very complicated in this context. It requires a completely different type of a, of industrial DNA and, and sometimes when I hear people, you know, EU regulators, um, talk about the fact that we need an airbus for solar. Just going, you know, this is old school industry. Mm. Highly capital intense. You could kind of plan what your demand was gonna be for 30 years. The solar industry as we know it today, isn't even 30 years old. The idea that that model can be transposed to what will make solar competitive tomorrow is, is a little naive.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Yeah. It's, it's new thinking. I mean, it's, it's, it's, you know, we're moving away from the past century and these old sort and you're making sure national champions, et cetera. Exactly. Making sure
Leah Charpentier, head of European regulatory and government affairs, First Solar:you've got enough money aside that you can, you can invest in a ramp up at the right time. That you can stay away from a ramp up if the timing isn't right anymore. Um, that you have long term customers that will shield you a little bit from that price pressure. But fundamentally, you know, this is really. Um, something that decides the actors who are responsible for producing the main component of pv mm-hmm. Have a big question mark about, you know, whether they're going to manage to be around on a certain amount of time. Mm-hmm. And you just have an obligation to stay ahead of the Asian developments, which can be a little bit hard to anticipate. Yep. Well, it makes it interesting. Absolutely. You
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:know, the future is very bright and for Zola, uh, to, to, to coin a bit of a pun there. We talked about solar, we talked about pb, the outlook and, and certain changes that have been made. And to enable the, uh, the market to develop, uh, and to help Europe meet its 32% target for 2030.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:That's gonna be interesting looking forward.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Absolutely. Hopefully we'll be there in 2030. Look back and see what happened there, Nana.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:So you're saying goodbye from very sunny London today when we are recording this podcast. Of course, when we will release it, it'll probably be Cloud Iranian Awful. For more energy news, go to ton news.com and follow us on Twitter at Monte News. Thank you for listening, and tune in next Friday.
Richard Sverrisson, News Editor Montel:Goodbye.
Anna Siwecka, freelance journalist/podcaster:Bye.
