Electrifying transport

In this special live podcast, hosted by Nord Pool at their special event in Bergen, Norway, we discuss how to accelerate the energy transition through the electrification of transport and the use of batteries. What sectors can be electrified and which ones will be more challenging? How likely is it that large ships or planes could run fully on electricity in the years to come? And what should you do if you run out of power far out at sea? Listen to a discussion on range anxiety and the requirements for charging infrastructure.

Host: Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel

Guest: 
Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy
Maria Bos, CEO, Plug
Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services

Transcript

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 0:00

Hello viewers and welcome to the Montel Weekly podcast, the live version. We are broadcast direct from Askøy Island, just outside Bergen. Beautiful surroundings. It's bright and sunny outside. I'm sure it's always like this in Bergen, isn't it? Now today we'll take a deep dive. Into the energy transition. We will looking particular at the electrification of transport and mobility. Now, my name is Richard Sverrisson. I'm the host of the Montel Weekly podcast, and I'm joined by three experts and p practitioners of the energy transition. So we're very privileged to have three. Excellent guest today Maria Bos of Plug, Therese Gjerde of World Kinect Energy Services and Marit Meland of Eviny. So a warm welcome to your three. I'm looking forward to this discussion now. I'd like to start Marit by asking you we, as we came to the islands and landed, came on shore, there were two batteries here, can, and that's, they were provided by your company. Could you provide us with a bit more of a bit more information about these batteries? What they're doing how they're used?

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 1:06

Yeah. So this island is not connected to the grid in any way. So there is there is no supply of power here as normally they would power the island by using a diesel generator. But today we have brought out, a huge battery pack to power this whole venue. So the two boxes are actually one, one battery unit and one hub, which is has all the connections and all the controls for the battery. So the. The primary use of these are for construction for powering temporary needs where you have a small grid connection. You need more power than what you can get from the grid or as in this case, where there is no connection at all.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 1:51

Okay. And how do they get charged? Can you. Sometimes they can be used in combination with a micro grid and solar panels so this kind of model could be used in places like Sub-Saharan Africa or Asia where there is no access to the transition grid or where it's more challenging, should we say.

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 2:07

Yeah, there are different types of uses for these types of batteries. You, they can be used in island mode as is the case here where there is no connection. They could be connected to the grid for peak shaving. They could also be connected to any sort of generator where they they get some power from the generator and provide. More power out than what you would get directly from the generator. So if you're using a diesel generator, you can use it at optimum Drive and you'll eliminate idle use or you could use other better alternatives than diesel. Absolutely.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 2:40

More on that in a minute, but that battery out there, how long would that take to run dry?

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 2:46

It all depends on what it's connected to. Okay. So we did before. Deciding on this setup, we had to do some estimations of how much energy we're going to use today. And and this battery has a capacity usage usable capacity of about 250 kilowatt hours. At, at 25 kilowatt pool, you would have 10 hours use.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 3:10

So about the same as my iPhone maybe. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah. Excellent. Thank you, Marit. No, but you mentioned diesel. Now if I can turn to you Maria we came here in a diesel boat but you are in the business of electrifying or helping to electrify the maritime industry ships of all shapes and sizes. Tell us a little bit about that.

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 3:28

Yeah. What we do is that we try to help with creating the infrastructure that is needed for the ships to either connect to the grid while they are birthed or to to charge if they have a battery on board. And our preferred business model is to do that in a joint venture with the port or the. The owner of the key side. And through that we believe that we could do it both faster and in a best be better way than if this were to be done. Like for all separate key owners kind, finding out how to do this by themselves.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 4:01

And what's the sort charging infrastructure like at present? Is it up to is it good enough? Should we say.

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 4:07

So when it comes to charging infrastructure for the maritime industry obviously in Norway it's very easy to point to the per in industry where we are, I think we're leading and we have lots of perries that are already electrified. Unfortunately, plugin is not part of that segment yet. We would very much like to be that. But for the. The backside of that is that for the ferries, we don't have any standards. So the charging infrastructure that is being built all along the coast is built just for that ferry. And it will only last for the 10 or 12 years that ferry will run from one point to the other, and it's different from. From place to place. When it comes to other types of maritime charging infrastructure we have built at least some charge charges for smaller vessels, like leisure boats and work boats for the fishing industry and for the yeah for the fishing industry. And that's typically the same technology as we see for electric vehicles. So it would be type two and CCS charge charges. So either. Like slow charge charging or fast charge charging with DC power.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 5:16

And if I understood it, stood it correctly, then you would also assist large cruise ships from from Desisting, from Burning Diesel. Why? They're imports, which is quite important for the air quality in a lot of these towns, isn't it? Yeah. Yes.

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 5:27

But the difference is that type of, in infrastructure, that's not charge charging, that's only short power that. Supplying power from the grid to, to the ships. And that's where also Norway's definitely in a leading position in, in, in the world actually. Yeah,

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 5:44

that's sure. Power, which is quite distinct from the charging. Yeah. Now, Therese if I can turn to you and ask more about, these are very good examples of the ways in which we decarbonize our energy systems. Are they not? But there are several challenges ahead.

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 5:57

Yeah. And I think electrification is is of course. Probably the main solution for decarbonization of the transportation industry. But it doesn't solve the bigger problems we have on, on, let's say the longer haul transportation on aviation and also on shipping for those segments. Electrification is not the viable solution today. So we al also need to look at other types of technologies and solutions for those segments. And the three other solutions besides electrification would be hydrogen green hydrogen. It would be synthetic fuels and it would be biofuels. And they all come, including electrification. They all come with pros and cons. If we start with the electrification, the obvious is that it's the infrastructure is. Available, at least to a large degree. And it's the cheapest and purest form of energy in many ways, right? But you still need a lot of investments in terms of the grid infrastructure to digitalize the grid. And also in, in, battery technology for it to be a scalable and a full solution today. Then you have the hydrogen part, which comes with a lot of infrastructure problems. There isn't a viable infrastructure for hydrogen today. And it's also not a very energy efficient solution in its purest form. And of course you need a lot of electricity to produce it, right? So you're back to the same problem with the electrification. And then on the same, on the synthetic fuels or the electro or. Call fuels, as we also call them eels. Also, there you need a lot of power to produce them. You would need hydrogen to produce them, and you'd need a direct air capture to, to solve for that problem. And the cost of that is who knows? Direct air capture. What's the cost of that? Is that even a viable solution? But it is a drop in fuel, so you can use it today, you can drop it into any engine. It has the same qualities as normal type of fuel, but yeah, it comes with all these issues. And last but not least, biofuels is probably the more, most sustainable. Asset is today of all solution, but the feed stock is very limited, and you have all these competing sectors around the world fe fighting over the same feed stock, and extracting those the fuel from the feed stock also comes with a lot of environmental problems. You're using land, you're using feedstock that could be used for other purposes. So I guess my conclusion is that it's not one solution. We need it all. We need to electrify and we need to have all these other solution. But what ties it together, I think, which is important to remember that none of these maybe apart from the bio bio biofuel will come without substantial build out of renewable energy. You need that for all of those fuel types.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 8:33

Does it make economic and other forms? Does it make sense to. To use electricity to create these fuels and then burn them, either to generate power or to drive vehicles or aircraft. Does that, does it make any, not no, not today, no. And it, what would need to happen in order for that to make sense?

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 8:51

You need of course to have subsidy schemes, incentive schemes technology development yeah, r and ds. All of the new business model innovation in business models, all of those things need to happen for it to be, a economical, viable solution.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 9:06

I want to bring up the topic of the regulatory environments Marit in terms of batteries and the development of what you provide, what your company provides. Are you, do you find that the regulatory framework is sufficient, or what sort of additional aspects would you like to see?

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 9:23

We are working mainly towards construction industry and we do have the biggest city municipalities in Norway have signed an agreement that by 2025, all the public projects in these cities are going to be a hundred percent fossil free and even emission free. And, and in order to achieve that the municipalities have to take on a lot of the costs for the electrification process because as it is today the biggest cost is the actual electric machinery. As to as of today an electric digger. Is about three times the cost of a traditional diesel digger. It's, it is a lot of investments that are happening right now. But we ha we need to start the process and there has to be regulations from the public. In order to get there. And that's just the same as we have seen with electric vehicles in Norway.'cause we have one of the largest fleets per capita in the world. And that is mainly because it's a cheaper option in Norway because of the subsidiaries.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 10:33

Okay. So it has been, at least in the. The outset, it was subsidized and or given exemptions from certain tariffs. Yeah. And that, that helped push it. So is that something you'd like to see happen more or something to, to have those kinds of incentives? Are there additional ones you would like to see?

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 10:51

At the moment it's it's, there are some incentives for the entrepreneurs who are buying this type of equipment. And it's covering about 40% of the additional cost the, from a traditional machine. But but they also need the. Public buyers to set the same standards for all projects because if you buy a machine and you have to pay extra for it, and then you don't know if you are able to use it. So it becomes very costly. And we see some of the municipalities are setting quite high demands in their projects for emission free construction. But still. There is a long way to go and and there is a steep learning curve for everyone connected to electricity because, builders in general are not electricians and they don't quite understand it. And it's difficult and it's new and it's a change. So

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 11:47

change is always difficult, isn't it? Yes. Maria if I can ask you, you obviously must speak to a lot of municipalities and local authorities. Do you find that they are listening, that they, they want to take on board and would like to change and that change is happening?

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 12:01

Yes. I would say that most definitely. Very many of the ports in Norway and also outside of Norway are in fact in the middle of the cities. So as we talked about earlier today emissions from ships actually affect the air quality of CC cities. And if we are able to make. Most ships coming into those ports connected to the grid, we will reduce lots of emissions in the city. And as we are very as the power mix here in Norway is. 100% renewable almost. We also reduce a lot of CEO too. So it's like a win-win situation for everyone. So I think that talking about short power infrastructure and also charging infrastructure to the municipalities and the decision makers is is a, is not a very hard task these days.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 12:49

Okay. Yeah. So that's and do you find that the. The regulatory framework in which you're operating is good enough, or would you like to see some changes made?

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 12:58

I think you need to look at it on different levels. So if we take for instance, the Port of Bergen, which we, which our voyage today start, start, started in the municipality of Bergen has been really on the, for forefront stating actually at a very early stage back in. 2018, 19, that every ship that arrives at the Port of Bergen should be offered shore power. And that's a bold state statement. And it also comes with an, you need to invest the money for it. And the Port of Bergen has done that together with us. And then you have on the national level, which I also see that we have definitely framework conditions that are working. In the right direction. And also on the EU level we see fit for 55 alternative fuels which all kind of points to infrastructure for short power and charge, charge charging. But I would say that on an EU level, it's all about the big ports and the big ships. And we definitely also need to work with the smaller ships. So I would very much like to see also more regulations for the smaller vessels and not just the big ones.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 14:02

Because it's always big is better, but don't need to also learn the micro level there as well. Absolutely.

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 14:07

That's where volume is, right? Yeah.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 14:08

Yeah.

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 14:09

Yeah.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 14:10

Therese If ask you about the regulatory environment, for example, you mentioned biofuel, sustainable fuels hydrogen, green, hydrogen it's what needs to happen to push that along from the regulatory side?

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 14:21

That's a big question. I think the complexity of the regulation and it's really hard to navigate. So I would welcome harmonization not only in EU, but globally on the regulatory side. But obviously more incentive to drive investment is needed. Infrastructure, especially incentives to build out the infrastructure, to enable the build out of hydrogen is really crucial. But I think overall the decarbonization is. Being faced with a high complexity on the regulatory side, which makes it challenging.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 14:52

Exactly. And you need to, at the same time, provide signals and potentially are more subsidies the answer, do you think? Or should you want that subsidies rather than market signals or price signals, do you think?

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 15:04

I think you probably need both. I think in especially in the beginning, you do need subsidies. But. Yeah, with more transparency throughout value chain definitely we should open up for more market powers and market forces. But yeah, subsidy is needed to get started. I definitely think so.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 15:20

As we've seen for renewables, the renewable sector across Europe. That subsidy push, gave the, a big helping hand to, to that sector. Marit, if I I, there's been a lot of talk in recent months, even maybe, further back about, the batteries. And the rollout of batteries given the global regulatory environments, and if you look at the US with the IRA, a lot of battery manufacturers have considered, not, maybe not shutting down operations in Europe. But, or in the Nordic region, but certainly not opening new ones and looking to, to the us and setting up factories there. Is that a concern do you think for you as or is that doesn't really affect your business?

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 16:00

No, not directly because we are not we're not involved in the production. So we go out and look at manufacturers and we do have, we do have a few manufacturers in the Nordic countries, which are building larger factories as we speak. And and they're also wanting that is very important for us and also for our customers. Is is the lifecycle, evaluation of the batteries and the resourcing of of all the components and how sustainable they are built as well. And we think that in in the focusing on that you don't have to focus on only the getting the cheapest and the most, I lost my track there, but No, I meant, but going for the cheapest production we also want it to be a sustainable production of batteries and and we feel pretty secure in that is withheld in in the Scandinavian countries and also further in, down in Europe as well.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 16:54

But then is, we hear constantly in the post pandemic and in the context of the war, there are certain strains on supply chain. So you, are you noticing that as well?

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 17:04

Yes. So we do give, get longer lead times for a lot of things at the moment. We. We are working to get agreements up ahead for things that we think that are coming so that we can secure the components that we will need. Even though the. The batteries or the chargers that we also have aren't going to be built right now, but we know that we are going to want more of them in the future. We make agreements with suppliers to do these investments now so that we are securing the components that we need that are longer lead time, set moment.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 17:38

It's very much a global market now, isn't it?

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 17:40

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 17:42

M Maria if I'm gonna turn to you what sort of interests me? When you're driving electric vehicles and I'm, I am the owner of one myself as well. So I count my, as part of this, count myself as part of this. But there is certain ways, a bit of range anxiety, how far have I got? And when you see the kilometers ticking down very rapidly, yeah. You start to get a bit worried. But on a ship, if you're stuck out here in a fjord in off the coast of Norway what do you do? Is that also a major factor in the rollout of, electrifying the maritime sector?

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 18:10

Oh, absolutely. Doing electric boating is actually like driving uphill all the time because there's so much you need to pull away the water all the time, right? So it's it's not in that case, not very energy efficient, but that also calls for quite quite a lot of infrastructure for this work. And if every one of us were to have an electric. Boat and go out fishing and do, and be out for a whole day. You could, with the technology and the boats that are on the market today, you could. You could do that if you didn't have to go too fast, you could almost go like a whole day and like really slow and do your fishing and then go back. But if you wanted to go like 30 knots and then and then perhaps do some water skiing, a wakeboard and things like that, you would definitely have to have a forced charger on shore in order for that to be possible. Range anxiety is definitely also an element in electric boating, but it's it's often, I think com you could also have that by having a fossil boat because you could run outta fuel with that as well, and it shouldn't be any worse basically. Yeah electric boating is possible, but we definitely need more infrastructure for it to be an option for everyone.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 19:20

And what could be the answer? Say if I'm stuck out in a fjord and suddenly I run out of juice what do I do? Just float to the next harbor or call out an emergency. It's a road Toho

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 19:30

I would say that you do exactly what you would do if you run out of view. That's my first answer. And then then the best or the good thing about electric boats is that they're much, much smarter than the, the the boats that we have today. So there, there's actually a take, take me home function. So if it's, it seems that you're getting too far away from home, then it's like now you need to slow down and it's almost turning you back. So yeah, tech. Technology will help you.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 19:57

Yeah, exactly. Technology answer, yeah, is very good. Excellent. I know you there should be, you said there should be more focus on the smaller units here. But if we turn to the big shipping, I, as in cruise ships, ferries big shipping yeah. Big ships basically. Yep. Is Electri electrification an option there, or should they be, should, is our alternative fuels that, that today I mentioned, are they more of a better option should we say?

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 20:22

At least with the batteries that we have today? I have to agree with with you. Electrification is. Probably not an option for the larger ships. For the ships that kind of go along the coast really slow and have lots of stops, it's probably possible. But for the larger ships, we definitely need a emission fuel that would take. Them from one port to another. And it's I really do have so much respect for the vessel owners of today that are gonna make the decision of what type of fuel they're going to invest in. That's not an easy decision to make,

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 20:52

certainly very, and could be very costly as well.

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 20:54

But then again, from my point of view, connecting to the grid while at birth will always be the most cost efficient alternative because then you don't have to, as you mentioned, use the fuel. Yeah. Two times basically. Yeah.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 21:08

So we were ta talking earlier, Therese and you mentioned, in a way that, that a lot of people use airlines and flights. And planes. What's the future for the aviation industry here? Stop flying or try and beget more or get more sustainable in. What form, yeah,

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 21:23

I think it's what you say there about stop flying is definitely something that I think all of us need to take in, right? The consumer behavior because we do consume more and more energy and we do travel more and more, we do ship more and more. So there's definitely element of kind of that aspect of it and also energy efficiency, right? Optimizing the routes we take either shipping or aviation, which is probably an under. Valued area of discussion. But for the aviation today I don't really know the clear answer. I think it's a little bit the same as for shipping. It could be it could be eels but with all the same challenges. It could be electrification if that goes the battery capacity increases and decisive batteries. Or it could be SAF, which is probably today the solution, right? But again, SAF comes with a lot of challenges as well, and. And it's not the viable or available solution to cover the demand at all today.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 22:16

And carbon offsets or

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 22:17

carbon offset is a, it's an offsetting solution. And yeah, it's a solution, but it doesn't solve the problem, at least here and now.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 22:25

So it's, again, as Maria said, it's a question, it's a very difficult aspect of the airlines that they need to answer these these issues. Yeah. What would you, so Therese, these are very good examples of the decarbonization agenda, how we wean ourselves off hydrocarbons. What would this do to energy demands, electricity, demand, Yeah. The, and is the supply there to match what's coming on online?

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 22:50

Yeah, I think I mentioned it initially as well. It's heavily depending on electricity, right? If it's hydrogen or if it's e fuels or if it's electrification. The basis of it is the build out of electricity. And the build out of the grid, which is also very important, right? With all the new intermittent energy sources there are coming in and all the technology coming in the kind of robust grid infrastructure is more needed than ever right now going forward. So yeah, the electricity demand is going to go skyrocketing thing, that's for sure. Yep.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 23:24

And are the in, there's often, do you find that the incentives to invest are there because in these kinda major infrastructure projects, 'cause often the mixed signals coming from policy makers makes some of these big decisions a bit diff, bit more difficult.

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 23:37

Yeah, it's a, a difficult question to answer. There are good incentives in some areas, but other areas not and I think, again, I think the harmonization of these incentives needs to happen and we can't just build out in one area. We need to look at it from a global perspective. But yeah, it's certainly not enough in all regions of the world. So

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 23:57

that stable regulatory environment was obviously all important. Yeah. Without sort of interventions that are retrospective as well, that doesn't really help that environment. Absolutely. But I'm, we are live a podcast here. So if there are any questions from the floor as we are running, coming close to the end

Unknown speaker: 24:15

I can always squeeze in the question. Thank you very much. It's a, it's close enough, I hope. Very good. Thank you very much. It's been a to share your insights on this complexity. I have a brief question. Why, what would it take for us to, because I'm looking at my mobile phone and we have this multiple charger, and I have to use two adapters if it's a smartphone or like an iPhone or if it's an Android. And then I know there are six different charges for the. Boats so far. We tried to get an electrical boat from Ger and whatnot, and I was wondering why didn't we learn anything from the car industry where they're trying to standardize the charges. Now, why is it, do we need like the muscle from Brussels to standardize everything for the air or can Norway set the standard and it'll be a global standard? Or what will it require for us to have a global standard?

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 25:04

Who are you directing at?

Unknown speaker: 25:06

I'm asking you all four at the same time. I was hoping call standardization, but I think it's, yeah,

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 25:10

I can I can try to answer that is a, it's a very good question. And I think we have learned some at least now as I mentioned for the smaller vessels we are. Reusing the same technology as for electric vehicles and with different power needs, the different types of ships. It's not, I don't think it's a one size fits all. We will not get there, but we need to have at least not too many. But unfortunately what we are seeing is that, for instance, for the cruise vessels, the plugs that we're using are from the mining industry. So they were like really heavy and I think if we were to do it today, we would've chosen something else. So it's it's it's about decisions are made as we go and it's, it's I think that we just need to continue to demonstrate what's working and what's not working. And if things are working, then definitely there's a higher chance of it being a standard going forward. At least what we need is for the same plugs to be to be available both in Norway and on the continent and in, in the us. And if it's not the ideal plug, then still it's more, it's be better that they, that it is the same than it is the, like the same plug for all se segments. But there's definitely quite a long way to go before, before we have a standard for all. Vessels and yeah. The vessel that we arrived on today, for instance, is a typical type of vessel that we don't have any standard for as of today. And it needs to be done. And I think Norway is a great place to, to show what it could be. Yeah.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 26:42

Showcase to the world. Absolutely. Absolutely. Just one final question for you guys, and that's on. If I could grant you one wish and how to accelerate the energy transition. One wish. What would that be? And I Therese, can I maybe start with you?

Therese Gjerde, Vice President Global Sustainability, World Kinect Energy Services: 26:58

Oh, God. I think I would wish that everybody did their part in a way everybody looked at themself and their patterns of consuming. I think that would be my wish.

Marit Meland, Business Development Manager, Eviny - Mobil Energy: 27:09

Yeah I agree with you. And it's because. We have to look at it from two, two perspective. One is reducing the energy that we are consuming. And the other one is producing renewable energy. And as mentioned before, I also think that the way that we are producing energy will not be one quick fix. There has to be different different solutions. And also the energy carriers will have to be more than one type of solution as well. So it's not if we're going from oil and gas over to other types of energy solutions, it has to be a broader specter. It's not one. One solution for everything.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 27:47

So lower energy use as well as diversifying alternative supply. Yeah, definitely. Maria, how about you?

Maria Bos, CEO, Plug: 27:53

So I think I would say that I want more focus on action and not just planning and feasibility studies and targets or the targets and plans and how to do it. I want action because at. At least for the technology that we have today that we know is working, we need to speed up the construction of that. And then we need to have parallel thoughts in our heads at the same time here because we also need to work with what's gonna be the future fuel. But action and not just talking. I think it's really important.

Richard Sverrisson, Editor-in-Chief, Montel: 28:24

I think that's a great way to, to end today's live podcast. So Maria, Therese, and Marit thank you very much for being here on our live podcast and in the trustee hands of Nordpol. Yeah. So thank you very much.