Sticky Nordic negative prices, will Finland retain top spot?

Since spring 2025, power prices in the Nordics have been below zero, thanks to a myriad of factors, including low power demand and a glut of green power production. 

Whilst this has been good news for some consumers in the region - who have been paid to use their electricity - the prevalence of sub-zero prices has created jitters for investors and many in öthe markets are feeling the impact of the negative downturn. 

In this episode, Richard speaks to a panel of experts from Montel’s Energy Day in Helsinki about why the Nordics are experiencing the most dramatic level of negative prices vs the rest of Europe. We also look at PPAs, the impact of an increase in nuclear energy, and how renewables can coexist with other growing energy sources. 

Presenter: Richard Sverrisson

Guests:

Suvi Paaso - Managing Director, Power Deriva 
Riku Merikoski - Senior Power Analyst, Axpo Solutions AG
Vesa Ahoniemi - Chief Commercial Officer, Winda Energy
Priyanka Shinde - Market Expert Nordic, Montel Analytics

Editors: Bled Maliqi
Producer: Sarah Knowles

Transcript

Richard Sverrisson: 0:01

Imagine if you are paid to use more petrol, broadband, internet, water, or even beer. Sounds too good to be true, doesn't it? But in some European energy markets, this is exactly what's happening. Over the last few months, negative power prices have meant that consumers across the Nordic region have been paid to use electric. Amid a glot of power that's flooded the market. What has caused prices to sink below zero? And why is this causing chaos in the markets and how long will the situation last? We are recording this episode from Montel Energy Day in Helsinki, where discussions of Finland's negative prices are rife. I'm going to be speaking to a panel of experts shortly, but first I'm joined by Montel's nordic market expert, Priyanka Shinde. Welcome back to the podcast, Priyanka.

Priyanka Shinde - Market Expert Nordic, Montel Analytics: 0:47

Thank you, Richard. It's again, a pleasure to be here.

Richard Sverrisson: 0:50

Why have parts of the Nordic region seen an unusually high frequency of negative hourly prices so far this year?

Priyanka Shinde - Market Expert Nordic, Montel Analytics: 0:57

Yeah we do see this interesting development of prices, which also keeps us wondering what's really happening. And it's also about like the supply and demand. Where we see that the supply has been accessed, as you just mentioned. And also the demand hasn't yet picked up as much as we would like it to be. So there is flexibility. I think the flexibility is coming in, but it's also a bit limited. So it, it is creating such situations where we do see more hours with negative prices in the day head market. And it's also about what are the reasons for going behind this? It can be high must run generation, which is coming from the nuclear. Which is not as flexible, let's say. And then there is also you know, more incentives, for example, GOs guarantees of origin. Those are there, there are PPAs, which are also limiting the incentives to react to the price signals. So these are a bit more on a generic level we would say. Some drivers.

Richard Sverrisson: 1:48

Okay. Excellent. And how have power prices in Nordics been over the last few months? Since we've saw the first negative prices for the year back in sort of March and April, have we seen any improvement? Has there been more positive territory?

Priyanka Shinde - Market Expert Nordic, Montel Analytics: 2:00

One thing to highlight is that this is the first summer that we are observing after the go. Live of the Nordic flow based market coupling. And also there has been a big change in the Nordic market in March, actually. So this is also to go into the details of what is actually happening. Let's get into the nitty gritty of not just the incentives to not react so much so quickly to the negative price signals, but also the other sequential markets after the day ahead market. For example, we look at the intraday and balancing market. So there have been also quite some changes there. Which let's take an example. If you are a wind power producer who is selling in the day ahead market at minus one, and then you see that the balancing markets actually in both in Finland and Sweden have been quite going in the downward regulation side, which means that the. Prices you would get there could be even lower. So you can actually buy back in those markets in some of those sequential markets that come after day head markets. So it might be like, if you have the chance to curtail, then you can use that so that you know it, it is also leading to the day head prices to be negative. So the ones who can respond to these price signals actually still have an incentive to do that. And this will not be taken away unless everybody starts to react. So the price levels that we are seeing now. Again, there is connection of the spring floods and so on. Those are also some fundamentals and also the transmission capacity. So there has been also some outages with the connection to Estonia and so on that is also leading to some excess supply ongoing. Transmission, maintenance, et cetera. But in terms of the price levels, we have seen, like the first days it was about minus two, minus one. But what have, what we've seen in the last month and also in, in May and June, I would say that the prices can. Even be the average prices on the days when we see negative prices have been even minus five. And in se one, actually the northern part of Sweden, it even went to minus 16 1 6. So it's not that low, but it is still low.

Richard Sverrisson: 3:54

That's, I'm sure we return to a lot of these topics in the panel here. But I'd like to bring in the rest of my guests here who are eagerly waiting to share their views. So I'm pleased to be joined by Suvi Paaso, who's managing director of Investment Services company Power Deriva. A warm welcome to you Suvi.

Suvi Paaso - Managing Director, Power Deriva: 4:10

Thank you. Nice to be here.

Richard Sverrisson: 4:11

And Riku Merikoski who's Senior Power Analyst at Expo Solutions a friend of the pod you've been on before warm. Welcome to you again. And last, but certainly not least as, as is Vesa Ahoniemi, who's Chief commercial officer at Finnish Renewable Energy Developer Winda Energy. Warm, welcome to you too. Now Riku, if I can start with you you, so Priyanka set the scene for us here. What has been the impact so far? Of these negative prices in the region?

Riku Merikoski - Senior Power Analyst, Axpo Solutions AG: 4:37

I would say one of the main impacts we are now seeing this year is that we have more and more wind power, definitely curtailing the production because of the prices. And it's not only about the low spot prices, but it also about this very extreme balancing prices to all directions. It has become much more risky. To promise any production if you can't really deliver that. And in a way, the risk is now in both directions. So it's, I think many wind power producers definitely, and possibly also solar power producers have been, let's say, changing their or speeding strategies to the spots so that they much more. At least some of them are rather not producing according to the weather, but according to the plan because now being different from the plan is very, can be very expensive. Also, this current combination of an hourly spot market and 15 minutes imbalances is actually not hardly optimal for anyone because it's part of the reasons which cause very. Nasty situations for the producers. So you'd say it'd have to be 15 minutes overall for, in both parts of the market, yes. That's that's vastly better than the current mixture of things. And so that's why I consider this delay of the 15 minute market is actually one of the reasons which. Makes this year particularly bad.

Richard Sverrisson: 6:00

That's very interesting. I think I, I will return to some of the impact on the Wind power producer and what it means here in terms of terms ofso in a minute. But first I want to turn to you Suvi. How the markets respond to this kind of this flood of negative prices. How, what's the best way to to deal with it?

Suvi Paaso - Managing Director, Power Deriva: 6:15

I would say, of course, raised up already, the flexibility. But I would also bring to the table the. Idea that actually we saw one and a half years ago when there were very tight situation in Finland, especially very cold weather, no wind, some of the power plants outs at the same time. So actually the consumption started to, to kind of take take the consumption figures downwards. It actually created the flexibility model for the consumers too, because it really. Was the tight situation. There were national power grid say, or TSO saying that, that actually please save the energy now and don't use it. But I would say that nowadays when we are getting these minus prices too, so there are not only the consumers who are. Flexible in that sense. Maybe they are then using more when the prices are negative. But on the other hand then the renewable producers have also adapting these kind of more flexibility on their bidding models. And how they are acting on the market. I would say that there has been, the years that they are just running, there have been tariffs, there has been supporting seams. When there hasn't been any kind of concern. Are they getting revenues or not? But but I would say that this, in that sense, the change is good because then you need to adapt to the market needs.

Richard Sverrisson: 7:49

Absolutely. I mean, how do you find that the kind of the climate of investments amid these kind of this kind of very volatile prices? I mean, what's that doing for investments into green projects?

Suvi Paaso - Managing Director, Power Deriva: 8:00

Yeah, that's a very good question that is there any incentive anymore to, to invest here in Nordics? But but of course it depends on the demand again. It's quite fast to build the new renewables. So if we get the demand, it's quite maybe one, two years then to invest in the renewable sources best. I might know better how long it takes, what time in a minute, but I would say yeah but the demand is of course the key question. If we get that here, then I would say, yeah.

Richard Sverrisson: 8:32

Because of course, traders love volatility or feed off volatility, but for investments into renewables Vesa volatility the negative prices maybe doesn't help so much.

Vesa Ahoniemi - Chief Commercial Officer, Winda Energy: 8:41

Yeah. Currently the issue of negative prices is definitely something that investors are keenly aware of and they look. The capability of a park let's say a wind park to respond to negative prices by curtailing maybe participating in reserve markets, and especially looking at the PPAs to make sure that negative prices don't undermine the business case for the whole park. Also the issue of reserve market participation, all that kind of new flexibility. Questions. They are something that are now being worked on quite heavily. You know, reserve market prices currently are so high that you can actually improve the financials of a wind park. Quite massively. The trouble there is that you cannot really hedge them. You cannot really contract them in the long run. So in terms of bankability the issue is paradoxical in the sense that you look at a wind park, it looks great when you add in the ancillary market revenue, but for a lender or for investor, it doesn't really mean much because they will say that, for a 10 year investment or, 20 year, 35 year investment that doesn't really matter that much because they, the revenues can go away next year. But definitely for the PPAs that, that's really crucial at the moment.

Richard Sverrisson: 9:58

And are you seeing potentially a slow down in, in investments or less interest as a result of negative prices?

Vesa Ahoniemi - Chief Commercial Officer, Winda Energy: 10:05

So there has been a quite a traumatic slowdown already. In finished onshore wind, mainly due to the fact that the capture prices right now are already for a couple of years. They have been really low compared to the past mainly due to the wholesale market cannibalization. That's story in terms of the bankability, PPAs, are now crucial, basically mandatory. So you would have to contract something like 60 to 70%. Of volume or revenue in advance for something like 10 years in order to reach FID.

Richard Sverrisson: 10:36

So a final investment decision.

Vesa Ahoniemi - Chief Commercial Officer, Winda Energy: 10:38

Exactly. And then we come back to the question of who is the counterparty in the ppa A So the customer is always in the center. Yeah.

Richard Sverrisson: 10:45

Very interesting. In terms of PPAs, would hybrid PPAs wind and solar plus batteries, would that help for example?

Vesa Ahoniemi - Chief Commercial Officer, Winda Energy: 10:52

Yeah. The. Thing is that they always sound great on paper. These things where you have, a ton of assets under one contract and then they deliver a stable profile. But the thing is that when you ask a battery operator that, hey, why don't you just, smooth out the profile of PPA then they will say that, look at the ancillary market revenue. So are you gonna pay me the same amount of money? To smooth out some PPA profile, as we would get in the ancillary market and, you don't get a customer for those kind of prices. Also the other issue is that, especially in the central European context, you hear a lot about hybrid PPAs and so on. But in terms of. Project development it's not easy at all to say that, Hey, we do a PPA, and then you have a certain investment for two assets that are completely different. You have different contractors, different permitting regimes. So in short, very difficult to execute. These kind of good, in theory, very difficult in practice.

Richard Sverrisson: 11:48

Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. Priyanka, if I can turn to you now. We've seen more instances of negative prices this year rather than last. And last was also Finland was top of the table, if you like. What why is this the case this year? Why are there more this year?

Priyanka Shinde - Market Expert Nordic, Montel Analytics: 12:01

Yeah, absolutely. This year we are seeing so Finland is a bit above last year, but in se two, for example, the North Sweden, the number of negative price hours, actually twice as high. Then last year, so this is what we are seeing already now. It has just been middle of June and it's quite a lot. So we were, also wondering about what are the nitty gritty, because some of the things can be explained by, let's say, a lot of massive build outs of renewables. That has been the case really in those regions. That demand hasn't picked up in the north of Sweden, and same for Finland. But there has also been issues with transmission outages, prolonged outages also. So the power has not. Found a way out. But that's all also the case. And then also the developments in terms of the balancing markets, which we mentioned. So that also we see that a lot of prices have been like much lower. So then like in the markets, sequential markets afterwards. So we do see that the day head market maybe being negative, but the markets after that are even more negative. So it is also that something which we feel that might be a reason of some benefiting a bit from that you know, of that. Arbitrage. So you like close your position. And then this is also something we are expecting, I mean in terms of, because the new balancing market change that has happened in Nordics just this year in March, it has led to a lot of local activations and that is also a bit connected to the flow based market coupling change, which is also limiting the transmission capacities closer to the real time. So it's bringing a lot more let's say. Local activations, so also incentives for the ones who can act on that. And then I think, yeah, as long as we don't have everybody acting to that, it'll not take away these negative prices which are also leading.

Richard Sverrisson: 13:37

No, that, that's very interesting. So is it too simplistic Riku maybe to say, to blame oversupply from renewables for negative prices? Or is it also the kind of regulatory policy aspects that Priyanka has highlighted here as well?

Riku Merikoski - Senior Power Analyst, Axpo Solutions AG: 13:49

I would say actually that if we look. Only to Finland. I would say the regulatory changes have probably, even a bit limited to increase of negative prices this year because probably if we had, hadn't had any changes, we would have probably had even more of them. And then the development in, especially northern Sweden and northern fin Northern Norway, sorry. That's quite much also impacted by the extreme high risk, extremely strong hydrologic this year in northern Sweden and northern Norway because they are like at the all time high. What we have in the statistics and that's combined with all the recent risk capability additions, has created an extraordinary situation. I wouldn't blame the rec very high precipitation recently on regular regulation or anything like that said. So I think that the regulation has had an impact, but the fact that Finland will definitely lose the top spot in European markets, I think that we can, in 25, we will not be anymore. The market with most negative prices in this year. And I think one of the key reasons is this very strong hydrology in the northern Scandinavia.

Richard Sverrisson: 15:04

Okay. Yeah. What's your view here? Suvi, I mean, what's your view in terms of the reasons for the massive amount of negative prices so far this year. Is it, this renewable also the conditions in northern Scandinavia? Is it this cocktail of sort of one-off factors you like? Or is it something that's more, more permanent part of the market, do you think?

Suvi Paaso - Managing Director, Power Deriva: 15:22

I would agree also with Bianca and Riku, that it is the kind of mixed of all things. As Riku said, it's strong hydrological situation in the northern Nordics and, and then we have had quite good situation on the nuclear production this year. Windy conditions also at the moment. So I would say that the yeah, not only the regulation, of course, these changes to 15 minutes MFR are rr is of course causing some really high. Fluctuation in the reserve market or ancillary activity market. So I hope that those will stabilize that it wouldn't be anymore. The system cost, either negative or really high positive prices. Yeah,

Richard Sverrisson: 16:08

I mean, just before we go further, it may be useful Priyanka just to highlight the different types of balancing markets they are. You mentioned FFR MFFR, and then there's AFFR and what? Just for the listeners who may not be aware of this kind of the, these, this type of abbreviations, prank, would you be able to just tell very quickly, briefly the difference between them?

Priyanka Shinde - Market Expert Nordic, Montel Analytics: 16:27

Yeah, absolutely. I love to talk about balancing markets, so it's actually very nice. Manual frequency Restoration Reserve is the MFRR, which is actually the one that is undergone a major change right now in terms of Nordics. So it's basically, a market that is in place to procure reserves. It's it's operated by the TA source and it's the balancing service providers who actually are the ones who are helping them out with this. So it's, it can be anyone who is able to, react to the prices by and respond to the signals by the TSOs. And this has actually undergone it used to be manually operated. It was quite different before. And now from March it has become like a automatic clearing automated clearing market. Which is also confusing us in different ways because the algorithm works in the ways it has been programmed. And I think not everybody understands it very well in the market yet actually it has. Led to a lot of volatile prices. And that's also, yeah, a little bit of those descriptions. So the AFRR, which was mentioned is Automatic frequency Restoration reserve, so that's a different market. That's a little bit just for the fine tuning of the limited imbalances that are coming up in the market.

Richard Sverrisson: 17:33

Okay. That, that, that's a very useful distinction and an explanation. Thank you very much, Priyanka. But Suvi if I can return to you, you mentioned nuclear a nuclear isn't known for its sort of flexible output. How can it, how well can it coexist with the renewable output in Finland? What is it? Is that, is it also maybe part of the problem or part of the issue here if you like?

Suvi Paaso - Managing Director, Power Deriva: 17:51

You mean that the nuclear is fixed. Yes. Yeah. Production in that sense. Of course we need the base production here. We, we have cold winters mostly. We still have a base load consumption also quite heavily. But I would say that they argued mix anyway. And if we get more flexibility on a, on a. Renewable side or some other solution. I think they would be coping here quite well together. And of course nowadays the nuclear has also, its flexibility. They have been renewed their kind of controlling mechanism. And of course all the trees is more easy to adjust.

Richard Sverrisson: 18:32

It's been quite astonishing the way. You, we went from Finland went from a shortage to now almost a sort of glut of power. And that's largely because of Otto three, isn't it? Yeah. So it's both. It's been a savior has also maybe created some kind of issues. Vesa, if I can turn to you what's your view here on the coexistence of renewables and nuclear?

Vesa Ahoniemi - Chief Commercial Officer, Winda Energy: 18:49

Yeah, so we talk a lot with new demand new customers and usually, when you see discussions in the public sphere, you have this. Dichotomy between base load consumers and flexible consumers. And usually everybody says that, hey, all the new consumption is base load, so why would you need wind power coupled with it. But when you actually discuss with the people and discuss with the players, it's usually more mixed or a bit more complex. There's usually some base load component that base load part that you need to have in terms of electricity supply. But there. In addition to that, you usually have some room for flexibility as well. So in, in that sense and certainly in our discussions it has become clear that there is room for wind power. There is room for a mix between solar and wind, and there's certainly room for more kind of innovative PPAs for this new consumption. Talking about hydrogen, talking about even data centers e boilers even. So certainly I think. There, there is a room for coexistence, even though definitely nuclear is a good. Good kind of backbone for Finland.

Richard Sverrisson: 19:55

Obviously you've mentioned here demand is crucial and you're talking about, you're talking to customers. I don't want you to name any names or anything, but maybe talk about the different type of sectors that are interested in investing in Finland. We've seen some very interesting projects with green steel, for example in, in northern Sweden and Northern Finland, and then here in Finland. But what. There is also concerns in other parts of Europe about possible de-industrialization and flights to other parts of the world where power port prices or energy prices are a lot lower. What are, where is demand gonna grow in in, in Finland or in the Nordics Vesa, do you think?

Vesa Ahoniemi - Chief Commercial Officer, Winda Energy: 20:30

There's basically three major groups. There is something a bit less sexy and more on, on the kind of background. Behind the scenes is e boilers electric heating that they are very quick to build. They're quite economical at the moment. So that's a huge component. Growing not huge, but still significant. And then the second one also in terms of kind of timescale is data centers. And now everybody and their grandma has a data center project in the Nordics. Absolutely. They are very different between each other. So in some project developers you have energy experts, really good idea of how to source electricity. In some other developers, you have the same person buying paperclips and buying electricity on the side. So very different kind of levels of. Understanding. And then the third major category is the efu slash hydrogen component, which is quite a bit further ahead perhaps than what has been forecast for a long time. But at the same time, it is crucial the E fuels ammonia. Ees a, those kinds of components really important. And there are, they are mostly projects with a lot of electricity expertise as well. So they really know what they want and they are really willing to, look at and slightly more innovative solution.

Richard Sverrisson: 21:47

The radiation or shipping or transportation. Yeah, generally these, the fuel for those. Yeah. Excellent. I mean, Riku, if I turn to you what do you, what are your expectations for demand in Finland? We heard that. I think the tso, if I ood it correctly, said 160 terawatts hours by 2030, is that something that you would agree with?

Riku Merikoski - Senior Power Analyst, Axpo Solutions AG: 22:04

I am slightly turning from being very negative on being maybe not so negative. So I would say that now I could. Just about believe their moderate scenario, which is the one that which they present rather in the low end. But now we are going to a direction that we will at least see some growth, which is quite a change from the 25 year flat trend. So we really haven't had any demand growth. So now I'm turning from. Let's say being a pessimist to being at least, if not an optimist, but at least that we will finally have some growth. But it'll be far below what some very ambitious things say. I think we in Europe in general are, we are the masters of preventing investments and stalling. So I think we will find that ability also this time much before we get over investment in power demand. I would say I, I think. We are really unable to cope with extreme growth. I would say it's very hard to. Maintain a somehow a stable political environment and all that, which would you would need to maintain to have an extreme growth? We are not ready for it in some And is the infrastructure ready for it? The infrastructure is actually one of the problems in there. Although in Finland we are maybe somewhat better in building that. But for example, some of the changes which the government now plans to do to make practical wind building harder, is definitely not helping if they. Come true with that because it would make the increasing the production harder and that would clearly also affect whatever demand estimates we could have in future.

Richard Sverrisson: 23:47

What kind of view do you have on demand outlook? Suvi?

Suvi Paaso - Managing Director, Power Deriva: 23:50

Yeah. I would say that the our view is also that a moderate growth in the demand. Next 10 years, maybe 10% growth. Somewhere there and mentioned already these electric boilers, they are coming behind. Nobody's speaking now. We are speaking about it. And, but then Simon, Eric mentioned it earlier, but but electric boilers are easy. They are coming in. Also the I would say that the, maybe on the heating side, some fuel side, there might be new innovation, which would be kicking in even though we don't. See it yet, but but of course these bigger ones are the main thing that we need to get in. And of course there have been some hydrogen or this hydro. What are these? For example, rain gas has got this support from their investments. We start to believe that the demand is starting

Richard Sverrisson: 24:44

to start to creep crop a bit. You referred to Simon Eric Fortum who was speaking at the the the Nordic Energy Day conference. I just to round up here briefly with one question as what do you think negative prices will disappear from the market? Say by, by mid 2030s? If I can start with you.

Suvi Paaso - Managing Director, Power Deriva: 25:02

Probably they may not vanish fully, but most probably the markets start to saturate in some point of time in the future.

Richard Sverrisson: 25:10

That's not, what's your view on negative prices?

Vesa Ahoniemi - Chief Commercial Officer, Winda Energy: 25:12

Yeah, I think that, I also think they will not disappear completely. I tend to think that, we talk about negative prices, but really from the point of view of a wind owner or wind. Developer, it's just price risk, right? Price can be high, price can be low. Negative is just very low. They may disappear on some time for Horizon, but I think just the overall tendencies towards more flexibility from all kinds of assets. So that should help. There's. The tendency towards a bit more realism perhaps in terms of the supply side of wind power. So you have let's say potentially in the future fewer mega projects, but instead a bit smaller central European type projects. Where the risk is not that high.

Richard Sverrisson: 25:56

And Riku, what's your view?

Riku Merikoski - Senior Power Analyst, Axpo Solutions AG: 25:57

Yeah I'm also very much convinced that table will not disappear. And as a bit like in the standard I think we are a bit too focused on negative prices because practically, if the price is plus one or minus one it's not, and it's, it doesn't produce a profit for anyone. I think that at least, significant periods of very low hours are with us for a very long time. And one thing which will keep, we be, let's say, maintaining them here is also the extreme. Surge and pressure to build solar power in central Europe. They will have such an oversupply of solar that they will dump it everywhere, including the Nordics. And because that's a very much subsidized capacity that will anyway produce at very low cost because someone, taxpayers in Central Europe pay for that. So that will also push our prices to very low levels, even if the Nordics in general have, let's say bit better design subsidy systems.

Richard Sverrisson: 26:53

Yeah, no, that's a very important point as well. And also plus one minus one. There's not much difference when we get to sort of minus 50. Of course we're talking different. Yeah.

Riku Merikoski - Senior Power Analyst, Axpo Solutions AG: 27:01

That's a entirely different case, but really, but you don't often see it in Finland though. Yeah, that's context of negative prices, often not that negative. And I think that's one of the signs that we, in the Nordics, we have done something a bit better, is that we don't see those extreme negative prices because we don't have. Such rich taxpayers pay for everything.

Richard Sverrisson: 27:20

Exactly. That's a very good point. Priyanka, if I can just finish with you what's your view on on, on the long term here, outlook for negative prices?

Priyanka Shinde - Market Expert Nordic, Montel Analytics: 27:27

Sure. I think I would leave the discussion with a bit more optimistic view and also a little bit on the positive side. That means so lifting the prices a bit from negative to the positive side. Yeah, actually it'll be really a combination of how's the demand picking up, and I'm optimistic about that. That it'll be better more coming in, more demand coming in. And also the incentives, I think about the regulations, I think what Riku said is really a very important point to understand the underlying factors and the incentives to react. Really, I mean if there are certain regulations, they are changing. They will also impact, and I hope like these situations will then. Really be resolved over a period of time because everybody's observing this. So if the Nordic starts to import, from the central Europe, those negative prices. So it's, that's because the markets are connected after all. So what are, what is happening in the regulatory side that's also going to be very important. And yeah, I think the market will learn and improve and then we will, yeah, hopefully see a very positive future and not so many negative prizes, but they will still be there a little bit.

Richard Sverrisson: 28:24

That's a perfect point. Vesa, Riku Priyanka, and Suvi. Thank you very much for being guests on the Montel Plugged In podcast. It's been an excellent and insightful discussion. I hope you agree, listeners, and thank you for tuning in to this episode. Our podcast episodes are released every Friday. For the latest news from Montel, please visit montelnews.com and you can follow us on LinkedIn, Bluesky, and other social media channels. See you next time.