A fresh energy crisis?

As wholesale markets remain nervous and volatile, there are renewed calls for policymakers to intervene to shield large energy users from spiking prices. But are markets failing? And could ill-conceived, knee-jerk interventions disrupt the EU’s internal energy market?

Rising geopolitical tensions and disruption to key global shipping routes have pushed gas, power and oil prices sharply higher in recent weeks. While Europe’s energy system is better prepared than it was during the 2022 crisis, volatility in wholesale markets has revived concerns about the impact of rising energy costs on industry.

In this episode, Richard speaks with Montel’s EU correspondent about the options being considered in Brussels ahead of a key meeting of EU leaders, before discussing with experts from the power sector and energy-intensive industry whether Europe could be facing another energy shock, why electricity prices remain structurally high for manufacturers, and whether calls for market intervention risk undermining the EU’s internal energy market.

Host: Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News

Guests: 

Cillian O’Donoghue – Policy Director, Eurelectric
Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals
Fatima Sadouki – EU Correspondent, Montel News

Editor: Alexandra Carlon

Producer: Alexandra Carlon

#EnergyMarkets #EuropeanEnergy #EnergyPolicy #EnergyCrisis #ElectricityMarkets #EnergyTransition #EnergyTrading #EnergySecurity #EnergyEconomics #CleanEnergy #EnergyPodcast

Transcript

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 0:07

Hello listeners, and welcome to Plugged In - the Energy News podcast from Montel, where we bring you the latest news issues and changes happening in the energy sector. Europe's energy system is on edge again. Gas prices are highly volatile, spiking, plunging, then spiking again. Shipping routes through the Middle East are under threat and memories of the 2022 energy crisis are still fresh. So the big question is. Are we heading for another one? In this episode of Plugged In, we ask whether the closure of key global shipping lanes could trigger a new energy shock. Why electricity prices remain painfully high for European industry, and whether Europe's power market is fit for purpose in an era. Of geopolitical instability. Now I'm joined by Montel's, EU correspondent Fatima Sadouki. Warm. Welcome to you, Fatima. Great to have you back on the pod.

Fatima Sadouki – EU Correspondent, Montel News: 1:01

Hi, Richard. Thank you for having me.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 1:04

Now we're talking about a possible return of an energy crisis. What options does the EU and the EC, the European Commission in particular, have in avoiding another energy crisis at the shield industry from high costs?

Fatima Sadouki – EU Correspondent, Montel News: 1:19

Well, Richard, right from the start since the war started almost two weeks ago in Iran, the commission said that there were no security of supply issues. And this message was repeated this week by the Energy Commissioner Dan Jørgensen who said that the block was much better prepared this time than in 2022 when Russia invaded Ukraine. But a key concern is price. The impact on price. The commission took a while to actually say it would take measures, but we heard the president of the commission Ursula von der Leyen today saying that it is preparing some options and solutions to present next week at a meeting of EU leaders to present some measures, targeted measures including subsidising gas prices or putting a gas price cap among other measures.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 2:08

So obviously we're recording on Wednesday afternoon, so Ursula von der Leyen said this on Wednesday morning. Is that right Fatima?

Fatima Sadouki – EU Correspondent, Montel News: 2:14

That is correct. Yes.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 2:16

Also, is there a feeling in Brussels that the current wholesale market design is under attack from either sectors or from certain member states?

Fatima Sadouki – EU Correspondent, Montel News: 2:26

Yes one could say so, the reality is that the electricity market design was already due for review even before the war started. So next week's meeting of EU leaders was also going to be the space to discuss the issue, but obviously the impact of the war in Iran on gas prices because of the correlation between gas and power prices in the EU is going to be a key topic and a hot topic. We are already hearing some member states like Italy, for example being very vocal about that and calling for drastic measures to, to tackle the impact on power prices from higher gas prices.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 3:04

Fatima, thank you very much for your time.

Fatima Sadouki – EU Correspondent, Montel News: 3:06

Thank you.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 3:08

So as volatility returns to energy markets, the big question is whether Europe is facing a short-term shock or the early stages of another energy crisis. And to unpack that, I'm joined by Cillian O’Donoghue from Eurelectric and Adina Georgescu from European Metals.

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 3:25

Thanks, Richard. Great. Great to be back.

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 3:27

Thank you for inviting me.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 3:29

I'd like to ask you, first of all, Adina are we on the cusp of another energy crisis?

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 3:35

The honest answer would be, I truly hope not because the previous one almost well, wasn't at all pleasant just to be, to be very diplomatic. But we do hope that it's not going to turn into that, although the signs are pointing into a crisis in the formation, it all depends how long the crisis in the Middle East and the closure of the strait will continue. If this is a short term supply disruption or these turns into something more structural, more long term than we will see massive negative impact all over the global economy, not only in Europe, but Europe is the first one affected because of reliance still on fossil fuels.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 4:27

Absolutely. So I think that those are the two key questions. Maybe we'll return to later, is a will the straits of Hormuz is stay closed and how long for, but Cillian, what's your view? Are we on the cusp of an energy crisis? Is that a bit overstated, do you think? Or is that a reality that we're facing?

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 4:42

Firstly, I think the word crisis brings connotations of 2022 which we experienced after Russian invade Ukraine. And I think we need to say we're not there yet, and that is not going to happen. So what we've seen at that time, we're not gonna repeat that. What is true though is that we have seen in the past 10 days a significant spike in particularly in gas prices. TTF has about. 50 euro megawatts hour when I looked this morning. So that's increase about a third. Oil prices, as we know have gone up that probably that's more global, impacts us less. We'll have to see now what the impacts on power prices are for the moment is more we're seeing volatile prices rather than necessarily sustained period of high prices. So that's what we see for the moment and it's hard to know what we can expect. I think with regards LNG, as we know, we import what, 4% of LNG from Qatar, but it's a global market and obviously if you, if we're taking 25 from US now, and then the demand increase from Asia, 'cause not getting LNG from Qatar, we know it's all interconnected. So we have to see what the ramifications, if the straits of Hormuz stay closed for a long time are for global LNG prices.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 5:46

So 2022 versus 2026 Cillian what's different now?

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 5:51

So I think the first thing, the obvious thing is the quantity. So in 2022 with regards to Russia, we imported 155 - 170 BCM of gas from Russia. As I said earlier, we import about 4% of our gas from Qatar today. So the scale is much, much smaller. That's the first thing to say. I think the second thing to say is that the reaction to the Russian invasion. There was a dash for gas in Europe and we basically said we would pay whatever price for Europe. We'll pay whatever price we need to do to get this gas. In hindsight, that was maybe a mistake. I know we felt we need to fill the reserves, but I know traders seen the prices only go gonna go one way. You know, the TTF in August, 2022, it's, it went over 300 euro. So that's not going to happen today. We don't expect that. An increase of a third, possibly 50%, but not the 10 times increase we've seen in 2022.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 6:43

Absolutely. And we saw, you know, power prices top a thousand euros as well yeah. We're not, we're quite a long way off that, I mean, but Adina what for you and your members what are the main concerns in 2026,

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 6:55

Outside the crisis? Or the, current situation

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 6:59

you can take both, you can mention both if you want, that's fine. Yeah.

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 7:02

Okay. So it definitely starts and ends with the power crisis. We are electro intensive, highly electro intensive consumers. It's the power price is the make or break for our business. Just to give you a feeling. One euro increasing the price of electricity translates into 2 million for an aluminium smelter. It is quite quite an impact. We've seen, as Cillian said, that there's volatility in the market that forward prices have increased also by sometimes even by 40%. It depends a lot on the location geo of the operations countries that are less exposed to imports of gas or that are less reliant on gas. They are, they're reacting slower but obviously. This situation continues, then we're going to see a more structural increase in the power price on the whole EU market. Obviously, this whole situation, we're monitoring very closely beyond the impact on the power price, which is the main concern for us. There are also concerns related to all the supply disrupt the supply disruptions on the raw materials value chain. We also see that the shipping costs have increased. So there are, costs that are being, that are rising all over the place and our industry is not in best shape. It hasn't recovered after the 2022 crisis that wiped off half of the primary aluminium production in Europe. So we are very vulnerable. Still and any additional cost just is another nail in the coffin. So it's not just the level of the price is also the volatility. It brings uncertainty, difficult to sign contracts, to secure electricity. We feel, we see that there's panic in the market, as Cillian said. It may be that there's a lot also of, speculation that is, you know, ongoing right now. But it is very concerning.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 9:10

Absolutely. Where, is there a sort of pain threshold for the metal sector here? Is it in terms of power prices, are we talking anything above a hundred or even anything above 50 60? Where does that lie? Adina, can you say anything about that?

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 9:25

We don't, you as associations, we're not allowed to, as you can inspire, we're not allowed to have information. This is a confidential commercial information for companies, but even right now in Europe, we are well beyond the pain threshold. Yeah. It depends obviously on the sector, the electro intensivity of each industrial process. So you have metals that are highly electro intensive than you have others that are less, but we are above that already last year. The average wholesale price in Europe was 85 euro per megawatt hour. So that's way above what other countries, other industries, our competitors abroad are seeing. So we're active on global markets, so we are exposed to such a global competition.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 10:13

Of course Cillian. What's yeah, would you like to comment on that? I think obviously the aluminium sector and the metals, generally they're important customers of the power industry. So it's important that you keep them in Europe, is it not Cillian?

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 10:26

Yeah, a hundred percent. Obviously, you've. For, from our side, we want industry to stay in Europe. We want industry to electrify and grow. They're a very important consumer base. And also, politically it's unacceptable to see a de-industrialization of the continent. So from our side it's very important that we kind of work together with energy intensive industry and find win-win solutions. What I would say, kind of following from an earlier point, from Adina is when we have discussion, it's important to break down a few elements. I think sometimes a bit of a lazy kind of comments that US is cheap Europe expensive. It's much more nuanced than that as Adina talked about, parts of Europe are expensive. Parts of Europe are very competitive, richer. I know you're based in Norway, you're from Iceland, so you know that very well. We also see some good stories. We see, again, discussions on, aluminium melters maybe locating in Finland. That's the most retro intensive industry, as Adina knows well. So there is some good stories in Europe, but what we do see. And it's also something Edina touched upon is that certain member states, particularly those very heavily exposed to gas, are seeing very high prices and very volatile prices. So I think that's an important distinction, distinction to make. Secondly, we are seeing that certain industries in Europe are very, much, much challenged. And I think for that we need kind of straight decision to say, okay, what is the plan on these certain sectors? And a non first Methodist sector, which is very important for the economy also has been very important for the Senate defence sector. If in certain parts of Europe, these cannot be competitive based on prices, then we have to assess what do we do? Are we prepared to let them leave Europe or do we want to keep them in Europe and have state aid and certain approaches accordingly? That is a bigger decision, but that's one discussion we probably need to have at some stage.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 12:05

That's one of the solutions, but one of the options anyway on the table, potentially Cillian, but what are your members most concerned about in this current crisis in 2026?

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 12:16

So I think the biggest thing we're worried about is we need regulatory stability. Okay. So we did a review of the electricity market design, and we had the crisis in 2022. Then we had the revision in 2023, and we are investing on that basis. To put in context, we need to invest about 5.6 trillion from now to 2050. So we need to deploy huge amount of capital. To provide the electricity needed for the transition. But when we hear all discussion, oh, we need to change the market design rules, we need to get rid of margin pricing, we need to change the whole thing around. That has a big impact on our appetite to make these investments. So that's the biggest thing we're saying is we need a right to stability. We think, as I mentioned earlier, there is issues with certain energy intensive industries in Europe. That is the issue, and we need to find solutions there. And we think solutions are linked to taxed, linked to state aid, linked to support for industrial decarbonization. They're the solutions, but this idea, we need to completely overhauled the market. From our side doesn't really make sense, and that's why we've been so vocal against it, the ahead of the upcoming European Council, that which will take place on 19th and 20th of March.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 13:24

I'd like to return to that and the calls for intervention and changes to for example, ETS which Italy's proposing as, as well as other aspects of the Italian degree. Adina. What do you think? Your members are based all over and in some markets that are very much exposed to the gas price as the marginal price set. Do you think the current market design is fit for purpose or do you think it does need changing?

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 13:48

Yeah, the way the market is organised is just reflects the reality of what's happening in the market. So what we see right now happening is just, the market reaction to any kind of increase in the price of the marginal source. From our perspective we also cherish investment certainty. It goes both ways. Investment certainty that the power sector needs for their investment. We need the same investment certainty for our investment. So a constant increase in the prices in the cost of operating in Europe is not equal to investment certainty. So what we would like to see is measures, a combination of measures, not just one single bullet that will sort out the lack of competitiveness of the industry in Europe. And I think it would be a dangerous path to go and pick favourites because everything is interconnected to the supply chains and the value chains are very complex. So we need everything over here in, in Europe, particularly in this very uncertain geopolitical context. While we do have member states that are enjoying, a lower electricity prices, we need to make sure that, this is throughout, this is happening throughout Europe. Not only in, just a part of it, and that would be the essence of a true internal single market. So what we see is needed, particularly, I mean, there are longer term we can separate the measures for short term or medium or longer. But in this particular moment we are looking at the potential crisis. So for that we need certainty that the industry and the industrial consumers, the electro intensive ones particularly, will be shielded from such a crisis. And what we see right now in the legislation that was adopted after the previous crisis, was that the mechanism that was embedded is extremely restrictive and the conditions for each application at the moment, those will be fulfilled and the mechanism potentially would be triggered at member state level. So also it won't be something throughout Europe. Those conditions, when there will be fulfilled, there will be no industry here in Europe. There are such high standards that are set that is, it'll be too late. We need to be accepting Europe that the world has changed and that we need to have mechanisms, clear mechanisms that are triggered quickly in times of crisis. And that such mechanism can offer the legal certainty, any certainty to both power sector and to consumers to avoid those knee-jerk reactions that happened in the previous crisis where you see a whole, diversity of measures taken at national level to reduce to pOE from marginal rent or whatever. So these kind of situations, they need to be avoided. They fragment the market. We do not want that, but we need a level to take crisis situations seriously and to have mechanism, that mechanism embedded that can be easily triggered.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 17:17

And that's something that you were mentioning as well, Cillian, maybe sector specific mechanisms. But do you, we are seeing the pendulum now swinging back to towards potentially in some member states anyway about, market intervention in the Iberian way, the Iberian intervention, the Iberian mechanism, the Italian market splits. We have, it's a patchwork of different different proposals. Our market's failing. Surely there's a supply squeeze and markets are reacting the way they should, which is prices are going up.

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 17:46

Are markets failing? No, I would say no. I think the market is working very effectively and I think we have to look at what markets do and that is decide how it should be distributed and to give investment signals. And they are, they're doing that. So I think the market is reacting the way it should react.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 18:02

And what do you make of these kind of this sort of patchwork of calls for intervention and to change market design? Because that's also almost an admission that, in some quarters that the market is failing.

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 18:12

Yeah. So I think we need to really break them down individually, I think. The wholesale calls for a revamp of the current market design. I think that has died down a bit in recent weeks. And I think people by and large accept that the current market design we have is pretty good and now we need to implement it. But what we are seeing is in certain member states particularly in Italy, certain mechanisms they want to introduce, one they're trying to do in Italy is taking to take the ETS effect out of power. I think we have to really caution against this. Firstly, I don't think these things will lower power prices in any shape or form. Similar to our brain mechanism. All you're doing is taking from one hand and given to the other. So that's the first thing. And secondly is we need to be conscious that these things totally undermine the internal energy market and we need to avoid go to launch strategies. So whatever is agreed to, in terms of reducing energy prices, it should be done at EU level and it should not impact the internal energy market. And just the last thing I would say on that is, the Italian idea is just a proposal. Which would be submitted to the European Commission and particularly DG competition. I think when you analyse the scheme, it's very likely to be rejected on the ground that it distorts the internal market. So we also have to assess how credible this proposal is in reality.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 19:28

And what kind of mechanisms I would you like to see then in times of crisis Adina? What for that would, would you like to see a price cap? For that, is EU wide or what, what would help in these kind of situations?

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 19:41

We don't have a clear, a clear recipe. What would be ideal in such a situation because, as I said, we both sides, value investment certainty. I think this is the job of policy makers to come with, a solution, that will benefit both sides, the power sector and the industrial consumers. Obviously, if you don't go for price cap, then you have to go for subsidies. And that is 'cause either you lower the cost or you provide subsidy. That's how it works. If it goes down to subsidies, those have to be given, equally to preserve the elect, the internal market that those have to be given at whole year level. Not picking, different member states or different sectors. Preservation of the internal market is key also for our industry. We are, also competitors among each other, not only with the kind outside, others outside Europe. What we see is that, the crisis is one item, if we're lucky. It will go away in a couple of weeks and then we'll all go back to business as usual. But the business as usual, as I said, it's still a structure, still have structurally high electricity prices. That needs to be tackled because then this discussion, can, will constantly come back whether, the market is functioning properly, whether it's the best organisation. So unless we take this discussion seriously, and we try to find some solutions, short term solutions, until, the investments in production in generation of electricity are also triggering they are bringing the lower prices on the market. Hopefully we'll also have lower costs, guys, everything is, we need short term solutions if you want. I think more on the medium term, because short term it really sounds very limited. But I think on the medium term, we need solutions to be adopted in Europe to tackle the impact of the high electricity price, to preserve the competitiveness of the industry.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 21:49

Absolutely. Cillian just, but I know you, you want to come back on, on that subject, but just before that, isn't this a, a stark reminder of the dependency that Europe has on fossil fuels and what happens? So surely one solution here is to accelerate the entry transition and to electrify and to further the pace of electrification.

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 22:07

Yeah I think so. I think 2022 was a clear kinda wake up call and now we really need to heed the message. It's not healthy for Europe to be so dependent on volatile fossil fuel. And even if we look, just take the story of gas, so 2022 we say, okay, we're gonna get off Russian gas, then we to kind of, we say, okay, US LNG is the way to go. Then there's some concerns there. Fossil fuels are something which we've seen from experience, they just, the volatility they bring is not a good basis to do, to plan your economy. So while we see it's better to have something worth more control and there is a solution out there, it's electrification. And I think if we really kind of take a step back and look big picture, we kind of have this petro state in the US biggest producer of gas, biggest producer of oil. We are seeing the development of an electro state in China whose electrification rate has gone to about 32% Now. They're really embracing electrification of economy and as Europe, we probably have to ask ourselves where we want to be in this discussion. We think it's better to push more towards electrification of our system. That's buildings transport, and industry.'cause this is something we can control and it's a better basis to plan our economy. If I can just elaborate on that, just one thing I would say is we did a big security supply study back in 2024. What we see is in terms of electrification is we have a lot of what we need here in Europe, so fantastic sources of wind. We have lots of solar in the south. We have nuclear, which is about 25% very solid base load. We have hydro power in the Nordics. We also have the Alps, and we have the biggest, most interconnected internal energy market in the world. So we probably should put these things to good use. I think that's a much better strategy than increasing our dependence import of fossil fuel.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 23:59

And can you, I mean, Adina then, can you accelerate the pace of electrification and in so doing shield industry from these kind of fossil fuel price spikes, that, that were hit, that hit your sector.

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 24:14

Sorry, I'm gonna have to say that, we are, electrified and we are the first ones to go down, in times of a crisis. And what I receive from our member companies is that although, they, they have, partly in their production, processes, you know the use, they use gas. The exposure is the biggest on electricity price. So we're not the best ones to ask when it comes to, we're the not the poster children for promoting electrification because we are mostly electrified and then we are, also, curtailed or shut down. But it is true that reliance, of fossil fuels, is is what we need to reduce over here in Europe. We need, to consume what we can produce locally. That is correct. That is also valid for what we can, for metals, for instance, what we can produce over here in Europe. We should consume it also, or we should consume it well, is the other way around. What we consume here should be produced in Europe. But coming back to, to push for more electrification. That needs to happen, organically, that needs to be market driven. It needs to be a business case for that. Forcing companies to switch from fossil fuel to electricity, and thats not to be done in crisis mode does not to be done in crisis moments. So that has to be, it has to have an economic value for those particular plants. So then that requires a competitive electricity price that would trigger, would make just a good business from switching into going into electricity. And then what's also needed is to provide these are CapEx intensive activities. So subsidies encouraging the electrification of industry to make the investment, but also opex for in case the price is not sufficient to provide the global competitiveness of that plant once electrified, then opex support is also required. I'm sorry to say, but unless the market offers a very competitive price, for electricity, then we are gonna have to resort to subsidies to make that happen.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 26:39

What's your view here, Cillian? What options does the, if this crisis were to be extended in the worst case scenario, weeks or months, what options does the European Commission has?

Cillian O´Donoghue - Policy Director, Eurelectric: 26:49

Okay, so I think from the commission side, in terms of the short term measures, there's probably three things they could, they can do. I think the first one is reduce taxes. Taxes and electricity too high. Tax and electricity are higher than gas, which is perverse. That's the first one. The second one is you can have targeted state aid for certain industries, which are extremely exposed. And then the third thing, I think with regards to the emissions trading system, you can probably give some support for innovation. I think it's also very important that any measures we do not disincentivize investments 'cause it, as Adina said, we need to just produce a lot more electricity. As simple as that, the more electrons in a system, the cheaper power will be overall. So that's what we would push for solutions. And I think a couple other things, which are very important to say is when we did the market design reform three years ago, we basically included that the current market design was working pretty well. But there's two things we need to do. We need to incentivize flexibility and we need to promote long-term contracting. And those two still things still hold firm today. So I think if we can have more flexible demands, then we avoid the peaks, which are quite expensive. I think that's an extremely important thing to push. And that's from all consumer groups. I know certain industries are not that flexible, but we need to incentivize all consumer groups to be flexible. And the second thing is, in this conversation so far we've talked like industry's been fully exposed to the electricity spot price. That's not the case, and a lot of them have long-term contracts, and that's something we need to promote. It's a win-win from both sectors, so I think the more we can promote the long-term contract and between the power generators and the off-takers, the better it is for both parties.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 28:35

And also another flexibility option is of course, batteries. And I'm sure that's a, that's potentially definitely a solution in these very volatile times when you see the huge intraday spreads in prices.

Adina Georgescu – Energy and Climate Director, European Metals: 28:46

I think there's, we have to separate measures that need to be taken to tackle the crisis impact. The structural measures that need to be taken to, further the energy transition and to also provide the, to lead to globally competitive electricity prices in Europe. And so for the, I would, yeah, batteries, yes, they can help with flexibility in the grid, but let's be honest, what we need is measures that can be triggered in the next few weeks. Batteries will not be installed in the next few weeks to actually help us or help everyone in Europe at the end of the day, 'cause it's not just about industry and the consumer. So the discussion needs to be very clear about measures taken for the crisis purposes and then the structural reforms or the structural measures that need to be taken and where yes, we agree that flexibility needs to be incentivized. But it has to take into consideration also the technical restrictions of the technical restrictions of certain plants. And what also needs to be acknowledged is the stability that is brought to the grid by the base load consumers, which is actually lowering the, is saving money to the grid. So there are a lot that we can discuss here, but I think it's important to make the distinction between crisis measures and, business as usual measures.

Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News: 30:15

Absolutely. You're a hundred percent right Adina, and thank you for making that comment. But I, unfortunately now we do actually have to draw this to a close. So thank you very much for the discussion and your insights. Very much appreciated. So thank you both for joining the Plugged In podcast. And to you listeners, thanks for listening to this episode of Plugged In. If you enjoyed this discussion, please like rates and follow to make sure you get the latest podcast episodes as soon as we release them every Thursday. We'd also love to read your reviews of the podcast. It helps us to keep up to date with what you, our listeners think of the podcast and what content you want to receive more of. Finally, you can head to montelnews.com for more news and analysis from our team of journalists across Europe and beyond. See you next time.