Can Britain Still Deliver Net Zero? Chris Stark on “ungumming the system” and the UK's Energy Future

The UK has set one of the most ambitious energy targets in Europe: a fully clean power system by 2030. But achieving it will require a transformation of the country's electricity network, unprecedented levels of renewable investment, and difficult political and regulatory decisions.

Recorded in Whitehall, Richard Sverrisson sits down with Chris Stark, Head of UK’s Mission for Clean Power, UK Department for Energy Security and Net Zero, to discuss whether the country is on track to meet its target and what still stands in the way.

Can the UK build the grid, generation and flexibility needed in time?  And what lessons could the rest of Europe learn from its approach?

The conversation explores the UK's efforts to reform grid connection queues, accelerate infrastructure delivery, expand battery storage, develop new nuclear capacity and strengthen links with European energy markets. Or as Chris Stark put it the tough choices needed to “ungum the system”.

#PluggedInPodcast #EnergyTransition #CleanPower2030 #EnergyPolicy #GridInfrastructure #RenewableEnergy #EnergySecurity #NetZero #ChrisStark

Host:Snjólfur Richard Sverrisson – Editor-in-Chief, Montel News

Guest: Chris Stark – Head of Mission Control for Clean Power 2030, Department for Energy Security and Net Zero

Editor: Alexandra Carlon

Producer: Alexandra Carlon

Transcript

Clean Power Mission And The Stakes

SPEAKER_00 0:06

Welcome to Plugged in, the Energy News podcast from Montel, where we bring you the latest news, issues, and changes happening in the energy sector. I'm here in Westminster, at the heart of policymaking in the UK. The country has some of the most ambitious energy targets in all of Europe. A fully clean power system by 2030. But with that come huge challenges. Rolling out the grid, investing in record amounts of wind and solar, building batteries, growing demand. Will the country be able to deliver? Earlier, up the road in Whitehall, I sat down with Chris Stark, who's tasked with delivering clean power by 2030. We chatted about grid developments, reducing grid connection cues, public acceptance, and bringing demand to the party. Well, I'm delighted to be joined by Chris Stark, who's uh head of the UK's Mission for Clean Power at the Department for Energy Security and Net Zero. Bit of a mouthful, Desnes for short. So warm welcome to you, Chris. I'd like to start off really by asking quite a big question. So, how confident are you that the UK can meet its clean power targets uh for 2030?

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Well, look, it's my job to drive these targets, and I am feeling pretty good about it right now. So we're as we speak today, we're about two years into what we call the mission uh for clean power, and it has felt like a mission. Um and look, there's still a lot of uncertainty about what happens over the next work that out, four years. Um but what I can say is that in those first two years, we've set this thing up now to succeed. So uh we focused in those first two years on you might say big infrastructure. Um if you want to rush at something and really have a goal at doing something quickly, you have to do that. So in those first two years, we've naturally focused on grid. Uh, we've focused on on the big renewables projects. We've been consenting new projects at a pace that we've never seen in this country before over that period as well. And we've done some wizardry with policy underneath it all to make it come together. And it has really worked, right? You can see the the change in the pace of commissioning for projects is is is measurable. You can see it. So that sort of locks in, I suppose, some of the biggest projects now for 2030. And the challenge is to get those delivered along with the grid projects. Um, and then we can do uh something cool with all of that to try and make that power system as usable and as useful as possible to the people of this country. At the moment, I feel great about that. I think we've done, I think we have really changed the weather. So yeah, I feel pretty confident.

SPEAKER_00 2:46

What's the the single biggest obstacle stand between now and a decarbonised um power system, Chris? Is it is it um politics, infrastructure, investment, public support?

SPEAKER_01 2:59

Or all three tickets. Yes, is it yes is the answer to that. It's all of those things. Um look, I it's fine. It's tempting to think of things as obstacles. I mean, you can pick obstacles out quite easily. I mean, I we sort of took the opposite approach today, which is to think about well, what would you need to have in place to hit that goal that we've set um for a clean power system? And we've broadly put those things in place. So now I think you probably can think about reducing at least the barriers a bit more clearly. I I feel much more confident, as I mentioned before, that we've we've set this up well now. But before us there are still barriers. Funnily enough, I don't think so much about the the political barriers, if I'm honest with you, because uh if you do, you'd you'd you'd be in the constant cycle of worrying what the you know the news today is. I think more about the institutional barriers, the regulatory barriers, the physical barriers to getting things done. I think that that has often been the problem, is that in government we have been too focused on politics and not enough on those physical things. And on those things, again, I think we've still got a journey to go, but we have we've we've also begun to unlock those too. So the planning regime uh in in particular in the last two years, we've focused really hard on trying to get the the queue of connections to the grid sorted. Those things are sort of coming into view now as been the next set of things that we will be able to say we've tackled. So I look, there's a constant diet of things that you can portray as obstacles, but we are chewing through them to mix my metaphors quite well at the moment.

What Really Blocks Delivery

SPEAKER_00 4:25

And you mentioned or maybe I mentioned at least public public acceptance. How do you get the public on board? Because these that these are huge infrastructure project projects, you've got grids, you've got the actual, you know, uh generating infrastructure as well. But how how can you get that public acceptance?

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Well, I'm not naive. I mean, I've worked on these issues now for long enough to know that you're never going to get 100% support for anything. And I think in particular, some of the big infrastructure projects will have communities that are impacted by it. So part of what we've done is acknowledge that and put in place things like bill reductions for those communities. Um, not as an answer, we're not trying to bribe anyone, but as a acknowledgement that actually there are difficult things that need to be done if we want to have a modern economy and a modern energy system that goes with it. But the broader story of public acceptance is actually a pretty positive one, even today. And you might think the second time in five years. People, I think interestingly, this time round, really connect the solutions of renewables with the answer to how you get bills down, how you protect yourself from those kind of moments in the future. So I think there is a broad public acceptance for what we are trying to do. But I also think that too often we are in Whitehall having that discussion. We're not actually out in the places where the changes are happening. The the kind of final part of the story is not really about energy or the kind of commonly framed way in which we talk about public acceptance. I think it's actually about whether those communities see benefits to this that are not just about the infrastructure that's built, but actually the jobs that are in the industries that go with that. Um, I stopped about bills, there's it reductions in bills is something everyone wants to see. I think there's quite an interesting story perhaps about connecting all that together. And if we coordinate this well, look, the cars on the table, there will be communities impacted by this, but we need to also show that we've considered that properly and coordinate that infrastructure deployment when it happens. That is difficult stuff, but we should be better at that. And we think we can do some of that uh uh to try and build broader acceptance that what we've done, even if it is an imposition, was that was the best possible way forward. Um, I again I feel I I I feel pretty confident that we can continue to have the public support for that if we get that right.

SPEAKER_00 6:44

And you know, you mentioned potentially loan bills, there are sort of other flexible options that that that companies and and and regulatory authorities can take, but uh it's also involving the local communities, isn't it? Maybe in terms of funding, you know, sort of hospitals or infrastructure or you know, that's also a part of it, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yeah, it is, and energy is fundamental to communities in a in a really interesting way. I mean, i I the place I would direct you to, and it's worth going there, is the north of Scotland right now. So where if you look at the the transmission build, this is basically the stuff that's going to facilitate the flow of power from where it can be best generated in in Scotland to the big demand centres in the south. That upgrade in the transmission system in Scotland is the biggest that we've done for a generation. And really interesting, the the two uh the two big transmission owners um uh in Scotland, SSE and Scottish Power, uh, have gone at that in quite a community-minded way. So they're, you know, SSE in particular is actually building the housing for the workers that will work on those projects. Um, that pro those projects are bringing investment, they're bringing cash to communities and that wouldn't otherwise be there, employment with it. We're also seeing some of the supply chain grow around that, things like cables as a new cable manufacturer going to the north of Scotland. I I think that is part of the story here, but it's not just about the state, the change in the energy system that we want to see happening, it is also about the economic benefits that can come from that. We again we could do better at telling that story, but it's easier when you start to see projects on the ground. And we're sort of at that point now, where really able to say that thing there is linked to the commitment that you heard from a politician two years ago.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

I think that's the crucial element here, because you don't often hear that sort of the positive aspects of this sort of infrastructure build.

Public Support And Local Benefits

SPEAKER_00 8:21

But if I can continue talking about a little bit about wind in in Scotland and grids, I mean what should come first, the transmission grids or more wind in Scotland? Because if you, you know, the the constraints are enormous there and from the north north to the south that you mentioned. Um, should there be a stop on building wind in Scotland until the grid can actually manage it?

SPEAKER_01 8:44

Well, you asked me, it's like quite an easy question to answer that. You asked me which could come first, which should come first, transmission or or generation. The answer is transmission. So you you should have grid in place before, preferably you connect a project to it. Uh, that has not been the way that we've grown the system in the last 10 to 15 years. So we've got this dysfunction, I suppose you could say, of generation, often very good value generation being contracted ahead of the grid being available. And we are with lots of things that we're trying to do to resolve that situation. But I fully acknowledge what we're trying to do right now is is pretty high stakes because we're building the grid and the generation at the same time. The reason we're doing that is because we see a situation in the 2030s when the demand for electricity is really going to start to pick up. So we need to be ready. We need to have a system that's sized for that. So I think it's the right thing to do to build these things in lockstep. It does mean that some of those early projects will be constrained more so than I would like them to be, but we're also resolving that. Our project is based about the grid. We need to build that grid. Where I think that will take us is removing that dysfunction after that point. So from 2030 onwards, we will have uh a much better uh sense of what the system needs to look like. And that will start with grid. So, you know, you should have a much clearer view of where the grid is in the country so that we then can have the options that we want to have about what we connect to that in the right parts of the country. And that is not a sort of one two-year project. You've got to you've got to plan for that too. So, my role is in 2030, of course, to get the 2030 system in place that we want to see, but it is also as we do that to put the steps in place to have a strategic plan beyond 2030. We want to be sort of, I say this occasionally, we want to be match fit by 2030 so that we don't have the system that we uh the the the the the the very difficult situation that we've inherited essentially of having uh that in the wrong order. Um again, none of this is easy. Uh I'm super confident though that we've put the right steps in place.

SPEAKER_00 10:40

Because it doesn't it doesn't stop at 2030, does it? I mean that's it that's when the it really starts going, you know.

SPEAKER_01 10:45

I mean, I am aware there is a world after 2030. I mean, I uh but it's it's uh it I I I think it's really important to say that the 2030 project is framed around 2030 because it's largely what you do in a single parliament. So this idea of having a a a mission is that it's a it's a it's a really exciting thing to be part of because what we are seeing is over that parliament we can write the ship. We can get ourselves in the right position for where we need to be uh into the future. Um that does involve difficult things. Like we are doing things that are not always popular, they're doing things that uh in more benign times perhaps governments would probably want to push into the future because they're they they they're about hard choices. We've taken the hard choices. I that will put us in in the right place at the end of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

I think I want to stay with grids for a little bit. And um, I mean, just a a sort of technical question, if you like. Do does the UK have enough engineers to deliver the grids on time?

SPEAKER_01 11:40

This two years ago, if you asked me that question, I would have been really worried about that. So um just on grids, um it is definitely true that we need to train up more engineers. It is also true that the reason we hadn't trained up more engineers is because we hadn't given given clarity about the transmission program. We've sort of addressed the transmission program now. And if you look at the plans of the three TOs, as we call them, the transmission owners, National Grid, Scottish Power, SSE, um two years ago their supply chain plans, which would have included the uh challenge of finding the right engineers, were all flashing red. And if you look at them today, they're flashing green. And that's because they put in place the right programs to bring those engineers on, to sign the supply chain contracts. Um, like this is the thing that takes us right out into the 2030s. Um, we will have done a great service to the country by giving the clarity that I think we really needed to give about the the extent of the transmission build that the country needs. And that involves them training up new entrants to the workforce, taking engineers from some other sectors as well. Um, I mentioned some of the novel stuff that SSE is doing. We're giving them housing uh in parts of the country too. None of that was in place two years ago. Uh so again, on supply chain and on skills, uh, we've really turned the ship around. But let me say this: I think there is much more to do on that. So you can see in key parts of the country that uh we need to have a clearer sense of what the pipeline is, and that goes beyond grid. So to take it beyond grid, we're also building offshore wind, we're building substations up and down the country, uh, we're putting uh new solar projects in place, and we're doing that at a time where we're also trying to have house building and and and new construction across the country too. So these are not entirely transferable skills, but we need to be very clear that there is a high-quality, high-skilled workforce that can that's ready for that energy part of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And I think there is more still to do on that. So I think that that's new infrastructure and new grids. Obviously, that's absolutely vital.

Grid First And Skills To Build It

SPEAKER_00 13:40

But there is a problem also with grid connections because they're quite a challenge for the energy transition. Um, how serious a problem is this and what needs to happen to unlock that those grid constraints or the the grid cues, if you like, the the the connection cues?

SPEAKER_01 13:56

I think the most radical thing that we've done in those two years is on connections. So we are not alone in the global economy and having a problem of a congested grid. Um we were unusual in how congested the queue to connect to it was, and we've really tackled that. So the way that we tackled it was to say, look, by 2030, we have a sense of what sort of power system we want to have. That is uh uh a very ambitious plan that has a set of key technologies that we want to see operating on the grid uh by the end of 2030. Offshore wind, onshore wind, solar batteries, uh you can go on. Um if we want to see that happen, interestingly, the projects are in development somewhere. So that was the novelty is to say here we have a five-year, six-year mission. Um, those projects are already in development somewhere across the country. Question can we curate the queue so that the ones that are most ready to be developed and most useful to that feature energy system can be at the front of the queue and not stuck behind a set of other projects that you know just happened to submit before them. So, what we've done is sort of bitten the bullet and taken the very tough decision to first of all lay out the strategic goals that we want to see for the country for 2030, also going out into the middle of the 2030s, 2035. So we've laid out a path for them too, for those key technologies. And we turned national goals, ranges as we call them, um, into regional goals and then used that proactively with the support of uh our energy system operator, NISO, to put the projects that are most ready at the front of the queue. Now, I don't mind saying to you that has been the toughest thing that we've done. So we've had to, we've probably cut on maybe two-thirds of the of the of the queue out. Um that's not an easy thing for any government to do. Um, we've put, I think, the right projects at the front, but we still haven't got to the point yet where all those projects have received their new connection offers. As we speak today, we're almost there. So, in terms of the 2030 projects, um, we're now at the point where those developers are able to sign the contract and start get going. And the interesting thing is that that is when the acceleration takes place because the developers all the incentives that they need to get onto the grid once they get that connection agreement agreed. And that is the point we're at now. So that the the sort of pedal to the metal stuff now happens after this point forward. And uh it's quite exciting because I would love to be able to talk about that story now instead of how difficult this has been. It has been extraordinarily difficult.

SPEAKER_00 16:21

But I think a lot of countries and a lot of TSOs across Europe would look at this with great interest and how you've done this. I wanted to sort of delve a little bit into how you curate that and what criteria you move certain um, you know, connection applications to the front of the queue and move others to the back. I mean, where how does that work in place?

SPEAKER_01 16:38

It starts with a plan. So the first thing we did, like I I have a longer history on this, so I've thought about having a clean power system for um well over a decade now in various roles that I've held. Um, I did a uh I was responsible for a report uh while I was at a different institution called the Climate Change Committee in this country that looked at how you quickly you could decarbonize the power sector. And we did that report a few years back. It was that that Ed Miliban picked up and started to think about whether you could take that and actually accelerate it even further. So I have a sort of longer history on this. Um and the key thing is if you want to see that future power system, you've got to have a pretty strong sense of what range of technologies you want operating. So I came into this job with a set of ideas about that. But what was really important is that we went straight to the energy system operator to say, what do you think can be done? You are the independent system operator. Uh, we have set a stretching goal. Now you tell us what kind of system you would like to see in operation. And they basically gave us options. So within the first couple of months of government, we received this very high quality piece of analysis from the energy system operator about what they felt could be an operable clean power system by 2030. That was useful in all sorts of ways, but one of the ways in which it was useful was to say these are the technology ranges that they felt they could cope with. Um and we then used that as the plan uh for going into that queue and uh and reordering it. So the first thing is having the plan, and then secondly, taking that plan and turning that into a set of strategic goals. And then we looked for the projects that were most aligned with that. So across the country, literally hundreds, possibly thousands of projects that could be in the mix for 2030 and into the 2030s. We wanted the ones that were most ready. So, did they have evidence of being ready? They hadn't just, you know, found a field, but had they actually started the earnest development of that project. And the most obvious way of showing that was that they had planning permission, they had a permit. Um, so those projects that got to the front of the connection queue were largely those that were aligned, firstly, with the strategic totals that we set for each technology, but secondly, had the planning permission in place. Um, and they were already ready because we'd set up most of those projects, we'll have some sort of government-backed contracts to start developing. So we're we're at the point now where those projects are going to start being developed quickly.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Because it's quite you know important then to to weed out those who just take an opportunity to punt and saying we, you know, and so you know, and and and because there are a lot of serious uh companies and players involved here, but there are also some people who are just like, you know, send in an application and hope for the best.

SPEAKER_01 19:09

Well, but I it's important to say this. So we occasionally hear this talk of zombie projects. Uh it's not a term I particularly like because I think most projects are serious and you know they they start out wanting to actually do something. What we found was that the the the grid connection process, which is for first come, first serve process, largely defined in the past when what we were connecting to that grid was coal fired power stations, had got to uh a situation where it was just unable now to function. And you basically had to do something radical to fix that. So we definitely did weed out projects that had speculatively gone in several places to the country to try and develop. And I I understand why developers did that. Um and you know, that's often what I think of as a zombie project. You've got a single developer looking in multiple places to try and develop a uh, you know, uh a project somewhere. So definitely a lot of that happened. But we also did take projects that were you know meaning more meaningfully developed in particular. And we had to say to them, this is the hard stuff. We had to say, look, you you can have a good connection, but you can't have it quickly, you're gonna have to be later. So it's not often that government decides to do something like that. And we of course had to take it on the chin because the developers are not best pleased. So I the the reason for doing that is that we ungun the system and actually does make it easier to develop projects in the future. But uh big part of it was to acknowledge earlier that we were gonna do that difficult thing and then be ready for the for the uh for the outcry. What's I think was interesting is how well the industries accepted it actually. They all could see that it something had to be done about it. So I think we have modeled something that other countries might wish

Fixing The Grid Connections Queue

SPEAKER_01 20:48

for.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

I mean, I travel around the UK and around Europe and and permitting is one of the major, major issues or most talked-about topic that people want solved and want some sense of urgency around. So I think a lot of that will be music to to many companies' ears, um, Chris. But you mentioned batteries. So the plan is for if correct me if I'm wrong, but about 20 gigawatts of batteries by by 2030. Um, how will that impact the market and how will that uh how will they make money? I mean, if it's 20 gigawatts, you know, it's quite a yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

It's important to see. So we set out goals for each technology, and amongst them was batteries. And on the the batteries is a slightly unusual one because batteries is largely it's largely a merchant market. The one wrinkle in that particular story is that we've also said that we want to have long duration energy storage on the system. And for that part of the market, we've also said we've put in place what we call a cap and a floor of for revenues, a a scheme that we borrowed actually from the interconnected regime. Um so there will we very as we speak, actually, we're probably days away from an announcement about how much of the long duration energy storage that we'll support through that cap and floor. And my best guess is there will be some lithium ion in that market. So that There is a bit of the market that will that will get some sort of price certainty, but the rest is merchant. So the re the thing that's different, I suppose, about the about the 20 gigawatts is that um it's kind of up to them how much of that we develop. We've certainly got the pipeline, but the question of whether they're in the money and whether their projects can be developed is largely down to their view of how much volatility volatility there'll be in the in the market for the to allow them to make some revenue. So whether it's the full 20 or whether it's a lower number is largely determined by that because I'm confident that there are enough projects. So I I sort of take the view with batteries. I don't want to be laissez-faire about it, but what I the view I take of batteries is it'll be there if you need it. But we've got to deliver the connection agreements to allow that to take place. So we're at the point now where that is largely what we've done. We've said to the said to those battery developers, it's on you now, guys. Here's a good connection offer. Um, if you want it, now's the time to take it. So I suppose with batteries, it's a bit like we'll find out now, and we'll find out how much of that will be developed. I am very confident it has to play a big role in the power system. And we see the role of batteries in other parts of the world. We often talk about Australia, for example, and the impact the batteries have had on their power system. So I think we're going to see battery developments across the country. But the full extent of it, it's just quite exciting. I don't know the extent of battery development because it's so driven by uh the variability and the flexibility that you need to have in that power system and the price signals have got to be there for that.

SPEAKER_00 23:25

And location is everything there as well, isn't it? Because you don't want them in places in the grid which will add to constraint, you want them to ease some of the constraint to it, you know, and it's a it's a two-way

Batteries And Long Duration Storage

SPEAKER_00 23:34

thing. Yeah. Um another technology that's often talked about and and often much flouted is is is nuclear. Um, you know, how much is is is is that a a part of the plan and uh, you know, what kind of what and and SMR is crucial to this? I mean, how much nuclear could we see on the grid by the mid-30s and in what form will that be take? I mean, we've got SISO C, you've got Hinckley Point, but there's obviously SMRs are a big part of that uh debate as well.

SPEAKER_01 24:01

So for 2030, we have mostly talked about renewable power, and the reason is that we we can have neuro neuro new projects developed in that time frame. Nuclear is a harder sell for that that time period. So what we've done is commission uh a bigger uh nuclear fleet than any government since the 70s. So we have really gone hard at the nuclear story, but it will be a post-2030 story in the main. We already have quite a lot of nuclear providing zero carbon electricity in the country, and we want to, if we can maintain that as long as possible, but there will be closures. We are going to see some of that nuclear fleet fall off. And that will leave us uh at some point, it's always difficult to know because there's a safety issue. But if the safety case is there, all of those stations can keep running until they say they can't. But we will be left ultimately with uh Hinckley Point is the big gigawatt scale project that's been developed by EDF in Somerset. Uh we have size wheel and then size wheel C alongside that. And then the bit that the kind of interesting story that goes with that is the one that you've referred to, which is the the SMR fleet, the small modular reactors. We've also decided to contract with uh with Rolls Royce for those two. So uh it's very exciting. I mean, you see the nuclear thing play out now in a way that it wasn't uh in the last government or the one before it lost promises, but not not signing the checks. Um the question though about how much of it we need is going to be uh one that I think is probably the issue actually when it comes to uh a longer-term piece of work that we're also doing right now called the strategic, well, it's hard for the hard to say, the strategic spatial energy plan. Okay, well done. I got out of it. Um the SEP, as we call it. Now, that will define some of the pathways for nuclear. So what we're doing with the SEP um is looking beyond 2030. We're sort of picking up what we've done for 2030, actually, and the lessons of that and the success that we've had in taking, I suppose you'd say, a more muscular approach to that, and government saying this is what we want, uh, and private sector responding. Well, picking the lessons of that up, we're we're gonna look beyond 2030, uh right out to 2050, again with Nisso, our energy system operator, they're giving us um what they call pathways to 2050. And from uh uh we're down to six now. They've at one stage have more than 50 pathways for the future energy system. From that, we will select a sort of illustrative pathway for the future energy system. Uh that'll be a hard thing for ministers to decide because it has choices within it about things like nuclear, uh, the extent of nuclear versus the extent of of renewables is one of the key issues. But the key thing is if we make that decision, what we should arrive at is coming back to the question you asked me earlier, a much clearer view of the future grid. So the network build, and actually it's that that gives you optionality in the future. So if you landed on a clear view of the networks, you have then options about what you connect to it. But it's gonna be very obvious in that it's a spatial energy plan. So it would be very obvious that there are parts of the country where it's very good to generate wind. There are also parts of the country where it's a good place to put a nuclear power station. I think the question is the degree to which you look at those things and then the design follows that. So again, this is these are questions that previous governments have ducked, and we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna take tough decisions on it. Because the thing that has blighted the energy system so much in the last 15-20 years is the lack of decisions um from governments over the age.

SPEAKER_00 27:29

Yeah, there's been a lot of talk, but very little of the actual action.

SPEAKER_01 27:32

Yeah, and I think uh we I'm very aware of this. Like the decisions we take today probably give you benefits ten years hence. So there's a duty to do this well, I think actually. We might not get the immediate positive return uh uh out there from uh from people in the street and the voters, but uh it's really important to do it. I mean that this is it's a serious we're making a serious attempt to do energy policy.

Nuclear Choices Beyond 2030

SPEAKER_00 27:55

We're we're sort of very close to the 10-year anniversary of Brexit, uh Chris. How how important is re-entering you know the European the the internal energy market and and and sort of uh you know linking carbon prices also to decarbonisation?

SPEAKER_01 28:10

Yeah, it's amazing to say it was 10 years ago. I had my story is I was at Glastonbury, so the big music festival when them when the vote happened, and that and it was uh remarkable experience, it was 200,000 people who I can guarantee you most of them didn't vote for Brexit. So I'm waking up on that day. So it's amazing to think that was 10 years ago. Um we are where we are now with the with with Brexit, and and uh the the the really uh exciting for me the uh world that we're in now is that we're in the middle of what's sometimes called the EU reset. So one of the key issues in that discussion is is our links through energy. So the two big ones are uh the carbon pricing regime to the ETS, the emissions trading scheme. Um we have maintained an ETS in the UK um and question could we link it back to Europe? We are already linked to Europe because Europe has a carbon border. So the carbon border adjustment, um carbon tax around the EU basically means that there is already an implicit link between our scheme and theirs, because if our carbon prices get out of whack from theirs, then money that would otherwise go to the UK Treasury instead flows to Brussels. So that's so there's already an element of linking, but you know, we are keen to see deeper links when it comes to VTS. The other one is the technical one, which I suspect your audience will understand very well, but that is the degree to which our energy markets, and crucially our electricity market, is linked directly. And here I can say that the post-Brexit arrangements haven't worked as well as we hoped they would when they were first designed. So we haven't got the kind of instant link that we used to have and the full alignment of um of regulation uh on either side of the channel. Uh, were we to achieve that um really interesting, it would both it would benefit both parties. So we would see uh more efficient use of the interconnectors and ability for us to use French nuclear when we need it uh and for the French and the Germans and others to use um British renewables when it's uh when when it when the wind is blowing. Um though those inefficiencies uh that we have in the present system, which it lies about how the how the market linkage works, actually cause costs on both sides for consumers. So it's good for the consumer to get us to get this right. And this is not a political point at all, but the deeper that we make those those links, uh it is a it is a physically interconnected system. Uh it is it is being forced to operate inefficiently by the regulation that we put on top of it. So I I'm very keen on that element of the recent.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

So could could for example the UK rejoin is it is that potentially gonna happen before 2030, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 30:43

Well, it's it's it's a negotiation. So um the negotiations take place over this year and into next, probably. So we will find out more through that process.

EU Links Carbon Pricing And Flexibility

SPEAKER_01 30:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:51

It's an ongoing process. Uh a final question, um uh Chris. If if you could what make one major change tomorrow that would dramatically um improve the UK's uh chances of delivering clean power by 2030, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 31:07

Uh gosh. Uh I'm not gonna sit here and tell you that we've spent two years without any mistakes, but it's gone pretty well over those two years. So I maybe I'll I'll I'll tell you what we've talked a lot about the what you might say the generation in storage and great challenges, understandably. If I could do one thing, it would not be those things. So I mean we've got a good plan in place for that and it's going as well as I think it could. Um the challenge for the next phase is on the at the other end of the cable. So it's it's about how electrified demand is, our overall electricity demand, and how flexible it is with that. So if I could do one thing, I don't know if there's one thing, if I could increase electricity demand in this country, we would we would have an energy system that was absolutely operating at at a peak. And um that is exciting because that that what that means is that the increasingly fixed cost of the system that we've built will be spread over a bigger demand base. And the more that that demand is flexible, that is it the demand is responding to when the supply is available, the cheaper it gets for the consumer. So moving more quickly on that now, I think, is the big challenge for the country. So if I had my magic wand, that's what I would focus on. And that is a big and exciting story about electrified transport, electrified heating and cooling, electrified industries. So with it, I think if you can get that going, you also get the story of cheaper electricity going to those sectors too. Um, it's not easy to do that, and let's be clear, this is probably a multi-decade challenge. But if you could magic that future to today, that we'd be we'd be we'd be singing.

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Demand slides are very crucial.

One Change That Speeds Everything Up

SPEAKER_00 32:41

Um, Chris, thanks very much for being a guest on the Montel Plugged in podcast. Thank you. And to you listeners, thanks for listening to this episode of Plugged In. If you enjoyed this discussion, please like, rate, and follow to make sure you get the latest podcast episodes as soon as we release them every Thursday. We'd also love to read your reviews of the podcast. It helps us to keep up to date with what you, our listeners, think of the podcast and what content you want to receive more of. Finally, you can head to monthonews.com for more news and analysis from our team of journalists across Europe and beyond. See you next time.