The Black Legacy of Laughter with PBS's Geoff Bennett — Episode 5

The Global I Am's Max Rodriguez welcomes PBS NewsHour anchor and acclaimed author Geoff Bennett for a candid conversation about his memoir Black Out Loud, the power of storytelling, and the role of journalism in strengthening democracy. Bennett reflects on the mentors, experiences, and defining moments that shaped his remarkable journey, offering insights on leadership, representation, and the importance of finding—and using—your voice.

Topics Include:

• The inspiration behind Black Out Loud
• Journalism, democracy, and public trust
• Mentorship and the power of representation
• Leadership through storytelling
• Race, identity, and the American experience
• Building bridges across communities and perspectives
• Finding your voice and using it with purpose

A thoughtful and timely discussion with one of America's most respected journalists on truth, leadership, and the stories that shape our lives.

The Culture. Our Capital.

Global I AM Conversations is an ongoing and archived podcasts of the world's builders, artists, entrepreneurs, thinkers, innovators, public servants, and cultural architects whose lives remind us that people—not capital—remain our greatest investment.   

Hosted by Patrick A. Howell, Founder & CEO of Global Market Intelligence & Media (GMIQ).  Co-hosts include Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair, Bill Huston of Crowd Max and Tara Frater, a wealth advisor and attorney in Barbados. 

Discover more conversations, articles, podcasts and global stories at GMIQ.

"The future belongs to those who invest in humanity."

Global I AM Conversations
The Culture. Our Capital.
© Global Market Intelligence & Media (GMIQ). All Rights Reserved.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, I'm Bill Houston, co-host of Global IM and founder of Crowdmax, a national leader in finance and crowdfunding. I've worked across the global diaspora to bring community dollars into every interaction, every dollar, and every level of consciousness. Since the bipartisan 2012 Jobs Act expanded access to investment, our focus has been turning participation into ownership. Global IM curates this vision for a better humanity. We invite your questions, your ideas, and most importantly, your deal flow as together we make the world better one deal at a time.

SPEAKER_00 0:43

Some places are built on land. Others are shaped by over 650 acres of it. Designed in harmony, Forest Hill. Choose tomorrow today.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Excited about this opportunity, this interview. Since actually crowdfunding uh became legal, and I've helped um 18 companies raise $2.7 million. I focus on um mostly black-owned businesses but minority and women-owned businesses. Uh, and really excited to be here and have this opportunity to speak with you.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Well, terrific. Terrific. And thank you, thank you for your interest in the book uh and in my work. It's uh it's a real pleasure and a privilege to speak with uh the three of you.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 1:54

You're being very generous, uh Jeff. Let's see if you say the same thing after we finished with you. Okay. So my name is Max Rodriguez. I'm uh founder of the Holland Book Fair and publisher of QBR, the Black Book Review. Uh the three of us, uh Bill Houston, Patrick, and myself, work within uh an idea called Global I Am. And uh within that context, um we became aware of your book, uh Black Out Loud, and we knew instinctively that this book was not about African American comedy. It was about how we, the global, we find our way through life, how we how we employ humor, uh, and how we project possibility through humor. Uh, I think we want to start with uh with a quick question from Bill. We know that you are a Morehouse man, you are a Morehouse graduate, that's right, and that you have established a uh a fund, uh a scholarship for uh for Morehouse University. Uh Bill, take it away, Bill, please.

SPEAKER_01 3:14

Great, thanks. Yeah, Jeff, um as someone who came through the Morehouse tradition and now sits in a position of cultural authority at PBS, how do you think about the stewardship of community through storytelling? How did the communities that shaped you influence how you tell stories to the broader American public today?

SPEAKER_02 3:36

That's a great question. And and and the training I received at Morehouse is certainly foundational. Um you mentioned, Max, that uh I started a scholarship at my alma mater for uh students who are interested in pursuing careers in journalism and uh media. I was an English major. Uh at the time at Morehouse there was no journalism major, so all of our experience was practical. And, you know, I have been in too many newsrooms where I was either the first or the only black man in pursuing this work of journalism and storytelling. And I was intentional about making sure that I would not be the only one in these faces. So that was the genesis of of the of the scholarship. But, you know, I come to this work understanding that for uh lots of people, the the news hour, for instance, is the only place where they get their news. They are looking for us to sort of cut through the noise and to make sense of a chaotic and confusing world. And when it comes to stories about black folks and black life across the diaspora, I feel a responsibility to make sure that there is an authenticity there, that there is a certainly a fairness, and there might be an entry point that would be different based on my telling than it would be for anyone else. Um, and all of that is really infused with the with the learning and the education and the confidence really um that I've that I gained in Morehouse.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 5:11

So so how excited are you about this book?

SPEAKER_02 5:18

I'm I'm I'm thrilled to finally have this book out into the world. I've been I've been working on it for the last three or four years, but I've really had this the question that that sits at the center of it, I've had for really decades. And the and the the overarching question was what was it about the 90s that allowed all of these seminal sitcoms, a different world, Family Matters, Living Single, Martin, Fresh Prince, and Living Color, obviously not a sitcom, but a sketch comedy. What was it that allowed all of those shows to exist at once? It wasn't as if there was a single breakout hit. They were all remarkable and they were all hit broadcast, but hit programs. So, how did that happen? And approaching this with sort of the instincts of a journalist and the heart of a fan is how I started at the 90s and then tracked backward all the way to minstrelcy, which really is the the first commercial origin of black comedic performance in this country. And so the book is the narrative arc of all of that, with the primary focus on 90s sitcoms.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 6:23

It's very good. So the title of the book is Black Out Loud. So I may be wrong, but but Black Out Loud says gives me some social historical context about who we are, our place in society, our impact, and just how we are perceived and how we project. Why Black Out Loud?

SPEAKER_02 6:54

So the title is a play on Laugh Out Loud, but the other side of this is exactly the point that you're picking up on. For decades, for generations, really, black comedians had to perform inside other people's expectations of them. That was true certainly of Minstrelsea and Vaudeville, and even, I would say, some of the early sitcoms. Um and over time, what became true was that as you had black showrunners, black writers, black creators behind these different shows and and and sitcoms, you what you had was black life, different versions of black life in full color and fully out loud. And the the frame for the storytelling wasn't that it was black comedians or black performers trying to translate black life for other audiences. These were very specific, very authentic depictions of black life, primarily for black people. And what we saw, especially in the 90s, was the more specific these sitcoms and shows were, the more universal they became. I spoke with Yvette Lee Bowser, who was a writer on A Different World before she became the creator and showrunner of Living Single. And she talked about the influence that Debbie Allen had, for instance, on the second season of A Different World. If you watch the first season of that show, it was almost a completely different sitcom entirely. It was a the star vehicle for Lisa Bonet, Lisa Bonet, and Marissa Tomei, who was one of the sidekick characters. In the second season, Felicia Rashad went to Bill Cosby and said, this show isn't working. You need to bring in Debbie Allen because she knows how to make this show really resonate and sing. And that's exactly what she did. She came in, she Howard graduate, um, and just looked even down to specific details about the set when she went into what was known as the pit, that sort of collegiate gathering space on that show. She looked at the tables and said, I don't see any hot sauce on these tables. So the set dresser came in and you know addressed specific details like that. But even the the storytelling became more specific, and that show became a hit. Same is true with Martin and Living Color, uh Fresh Prince of Bel Air. Uh, and so uh again, what was so particular about that era is it wasn't one version of Black Life, it was many, many different ways in which all sorts of people could see themselves reflected.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 9:22

It's very good. You you know, the uh so I live in books, right? I I'm the founder of the Harlem Book Fair and and and publisher of the review, and so I I look for parallels. And and the parallel that I see, the apparent uh parallel I see is the Harlem Renaissance, a flowering of uh of literature and art, and this versioning of of comedic expression in the 90s. Is is is it fair to say that they are somewhat parallel? And I think that's I think that's fair.

SPEAKER_02 9:58

And it was also true that there was a similar system of patronage. So there was a patronage system that allowed the Harlem Renaissance to flourish, and that was true in the 90s in a completely different way, but I'll explain. So I spoke with Barry Diller for this book, who created, founded Fox Broadcasting Network. And he said that he was really intentional when he launched Fox because he wanted it to be different than the big three NBC, CBS, ABC. That in prime time, those shows, those sitcoms were, in his view, fairly indistinguishable. And that he wanted Fox to be different. He wanted it to be edgy. And he told me that the first pilot that they got, the title for that pilot was not the Cosby show, because the producers of what would later become Married with Children knew that they had to be different and countercultural. And so that was the that was the sort of on-the-nose title that they gave this pilot. And once that show was a success, Diller told me that that basically wrote the formula for everything else to come. And so, you know, he was intentional about finding King and Ivory Wayans. And when King and Ivory Wayans developed in Living Color, the pipeline for sketch comedy was really only built around SNL, Saturday Night Live. So he had to go out and basically find David Allen Greer, Jim Carrey, all of course, you know, they're all his brothers and sisters uh who and ultimately ended up on that show, who were now household names. But it was really because there were network executives, Barry Diller being the first, who were intentional about giving black creators the freedom and the space and the money to have these shows. And keep in mind they were doing it similar to the Harlem Renaissance in their late 20s, maybe early 30s. They were fairly young, but had a lot of agency, had a lot of money, and found a lot of success early on. And as is always the case in Hollywood, success begets success. So you have a successful living color, so that gets you Martin. Uh different worlds doing well, so you get living single. And so that's how all of these shows flourish simultaneously.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 12:10

My my. So that patronage, that support. So in the on the book side of things, we had the Renaissance, and then we sort of flatten out a bit, uh, and individual writers sort of take center stage, uh, center stage, and there was a a reawakening of sorts uh in the 90s around books. Um what do you foresee as a next iteration of of expression for comedy uh uh or comedians going into the future? We've had this sort of expanse of of black comedy. And what next?

SPEAKER_02 12:58

Well, I think we're seeing it. It's it's young people on their phones creating you know short clips that they upload to TikTok or YouTube shorts, and that's that's where it lives. And that's where, in many ways, it's getting financial support. It's with brands deciding that they want to connect with a young person who has a substantial following and a certain level of engagement. What's different though, I'll say this the good thing is, you know, when I was growing up watching these shows, I could pick from any what eight to ten different programs and see versions of myself or my family members or friends reflected in those shows. Now, potentially, a person who is at the age I was then, 11, 13, 12, 13, 14, they could see potentially 8 billion versions of that because it's anybody with a cell phone who who is recording what they find to be funny and uploading it. But what we have lost is that there is no more monoculture. We don't have shared reference points. It's not the kind of thing where when I was growing up, I remember when that rap group, crisscross, was on in Living Color, and the next day everybody came in with their clothes on backwards because that's the that's how they that was their trademark. They turn they flip their clothes around and perform with their clothes on backwards. So we're we're missing a lot of that. We're missing the shared reference points. And I think that adds to a sense of cultural cohesion that we're also missing these days. People aren't watching the same things, they're not laughing together, you're not seeing families sit down in the living room and turn on the TV at eight o'clock and watch a half-hour broadcast. And so that's that thing that is really sort of tearing at the culture, not just that. There are all hosts of reasons for why there's a lack of cultural cohesion. But that's a that's a big one. I think comedy lowers people's defenses. And in some of these shows, they're able to slip in certain truths, and you know, for cross-racial audiences who didn't have familiarity with black life, they're able to see aspects of black life reflected there that they're not necessarily seeing it now.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 15:02

The uh just switching back to uh to Morehouse, to that scholarship uh at Morehouse, um, how is that developing? Uh, what are some of the fruits of your vision uh at this point? Uh how do you support it? Do you go to Morehouse and and speak and and have a leadership and active leadership role in it? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I do. I I don't go back as much as I would like. I was just there a few months ago and and spoke with the students who run the school newspaper. I was editor-in-chief of the of the school newspaper when I was there. But the but the scholarship is funded annually, and the idea was to support four students a year for the next 10 years. And that could be sophomore to senior. It's so often true that for a lot of HBCU students, the the they tend to sometimes run out of money, frankly. And so junior to senior year, they're looking for support to stay in school. And so I kind of had that in the back of my mind. When I was at Morehouse, I was a resident assistant for three years. And I too frequently saw really talented young brothers who just would run out of money. And Oprah Winfrey had donated a substantial amount of money when I was there. And I would always tell them, well, go to financial aid and ask for the Oprah money. And in time and time and time after time, that would always do the trick. And it was because of it was because of her, her, her intention in giving that amount of money unrestricted, that allowed so many students to matriculate through Morehouse. Now, granted, I'm not wasn't giving money at that level, but you know, I did have in the back of my mind that yeah, if I ever got to a position where I was able to create something to support students, especially students who went into uh journalism or English or media, I would certainly try to do that.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 16:55

That's really good. The so you, Oprah, there are others. What is the call to action that you would want to share with those like you, like Oprah, who can? How do we, those of us who lead and who have benefited through hard work, intelligence, and application, how do we sort of turn in and look to see where we could help, especially in the way that you have?

SPEAKER_02 17:25

Yeah, especially when it comes to the arts or to, again, to journalism or English or media, I think it is much harder for young people to find their way in in those fields. Um even as there are fewer gatekeepers, and so much of that work has become democratized. In some ways, having gatekeepers is helpful because there is a system. You know that there's a system. So, you know, for instance, if you want to work in news, you start at a local market and work your way up. That doesn't exist anymore. So, in a lot of ways, it's it's more confusing and more frustrating for young people coming into the working world today because they have so many options and there's no one clear path. Add to that the rollback and affirmative action and diversity initiatives, so many of the things that so many of us benefited from in ways that we're not entirely sure how we benefited from it, but we just kind of assume that we did because those systems existed, reparative systems for hundreds of years of systemic discrimination. So I say all that to say for folks who feel the inclination to help, reach out to your local HBCU, local college or university, and ask. For those who can donate, certainly donate. But I think also the the gift of your time, the gift of your experience, the gift of your insight can be really helpful to some of these young folks who don't really feel as if they can reach out or they don't know who to reach out to. So just extending yourself as a lifeline, I think, is helpful.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 19:00

That's really great. Bill, feel free to jump in uh whenever you like. I'd like to sort of switch back to the book for a second. Uh I enjoyed sort of the the historical trail uh that that you shared. You you interviewed many people uh in your in your work. And I want to talk about the impact. Well, I we'll go right there. I want to talk about the impact that you have found that black comedy has had on on America. And and let me offer this as a possibility. So uh my thinking is that you know, people like mom Mabely and and and Red Fox and you know, all of those, you know, uh early earlier, I'm sure that they are who is there a first black comedian? Is there such a thing?

SPEAKER_02 19:58

A Billy Kersans or a Bert Williams, I'm thinking from from the vaudeville and and and minstrelsy days, who of course were navigating in the narrow confines of what was allowed for them, but even uh Bert Williams found ways to to humanize his act as best he could. Um but to be clear and to be fair to our history, the first comedians are folks we don't even know. They were enslaved people who were finding ways to infuse humor and jokes as a as a survival tactic. We don't know their names, but we certainly know we benefited from their sacrifice. And so that that DNA is what exists through those days, through Moms Mabely, through Flip Wilson and Dick Gregory, to Richard Pryor, to Monique some more, uh, Dave Chappelle today. That that has always been true. That that comedy has been the thing that has really gotten us through. I was speaking of Sinbad as part of my research for this book, and he said that he was influenced by Richard Pryor, as have so many of the modern greats. And he talked about how his father was a preacher, his mother was a mother of the church. But Sinbad got his hands on one of Richard Pryor's albums, the name of which I probably can't repeat in polite company. But he was playing it and he said, you know, his two super religious parents heard it in the hallway and they were laughing. And he made the point that Richard Pryor he got to everybody. Um, but even Richard Pryor's story is interesting because he started out as a clean comic because he was emulating Bill Cosby. And the thought was, well, Bill Cosby found success doing this, so I'm gonna do it too. And it took Richard Pryor, you know, finding his own voice, is true for anybody who works in comedy or media or whatever, finding your own artistic voice, uh, realizing that the more specific and authentic he Was the more success you would find.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 22:03

You see, and and and thank you, Jeff. And there's there's another part to this story, and that is uh for that, you know, that versioning during the the the 90s that also served to as as as groundbreaking in in so many other ways. Tell me if I'm wrong, but I I think that were it not for that period of time, that sort of opening period of time, we would not know perhaps Ali Wong, we wouldn't know Aziz. I'm sorry, uh we we we we may not know you know Arsenio Hall as a as a talk show host, uh we may not know Trevor Noah as a talk show host, maybe even Oprah, I'm sorry, Oprah. Uh you know, and and and and perhaps Dave Chappelle would not have received a Mark Twain Award in comic.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

Yeah, so not only that, you you wouldn't have a Secretary of State Colin Powell, you wouldn't have a President Barack Obama, a vice president Kamala Harris. So in some ways, what those shows did was it allowed, it worked on several levels, right? You have Ayanna Presley, Congresswoman, you have Stacey Abrams, you have Kamala Harris, who all say that they were influenced by Maxine Shaw, attorney at law, the character from Living Single, who was this high-powered professional woman, a role that had not been seen on TV previously. So they were influenced. You had the non-black audiences who were watching shows like that, who were able to, in their mind's eye, envision what it looks like to see a black woman in charge and unapologetic about it. So it worked on that level. And then because these shows, again, were top-rated shows across the board. So they weren't just resonating with black audiences. If they were, that would have been terrific in and of itself. But they were resonating with audiences across the board. The Cosby show was number one for almost a decade. A different world uh was number three, Cheers was number two, and it was like that for years. Um, and so what that meant was you had these young comics who you mentioned, like Naziz Osari or Ali Wong, watching that and figuring out, you know, well, figuring out structure how to how to structure a joke, how to make a story that resonates. And so in in many ways, you had folks who were seeing visions of versions of themselves reflected on screen, and then for everybody else, it was this is this is just funny, right? These are funny shows. These incomes had to work on that level, first of all. It had to be funny, and that's what made them successful and culturally significant.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 24:41

That's really good. The the and and so then what do you think, what are the um, what's the word I'm looking for? Um what are the connectors? What are the the the connecting points that these comedians and and and black folk, black African American community, they share. What is it that keeps them intact? I guess that's sort of a broad question, but do you understand? Do you hear it?

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah, yeah. So this is this is the thing that really struck me about the 90s is that there was no baton passing because they were all doing work simultaneously. But if you look at the origins of an Eddie Murphy or a Martin Lawrence or even a Keenan, what you have are these brilliant, brilliant young men who, as they were coming up through school in particular, all of them, in looking at their stories, had a teacher who recognized their brilliance. And when everyone else was saying that these guys are being disruptive in class or these guys uh need to get their acts together, these teachers, they each had a teacher in their life who gave them time during class to perform and who basically said, Go up, okay, fine, if you're going to act up in my class, let's just do a deal. You you keep it together, and at the end of the class, you can come up and you have 10 minutes of basically stage time and you can perform. That happened with each of those now legendary comics. So there's a there's a point of connection there that to me just kind of was really, really to me significant and interesting. But the other thing is they all found success by being true to themselves and telling very specific stories. So, in some ways, the the more broader you are, and the if you try to reach everybody, you sometimes end up reaching no one. But with Martin Lawrence being so chaotic, really, and having all those crazy characters like Shine and Roman from Upstairs and all the other different characters, like all of that worked on a just on a cellular level. It all just worked. Same thing with Living Single, you know, Bettley Bowser really had to go to the Met to make sure that she had all the characters she wanted in that show because the network was saying, Well, do you really need a Maxine Shaw? I don't think we really need her. And she was like, No, we need that character. And so that that show worked. Same thing with in Living Color. I mean, again, for for Keenan Ivory Wayans to get all of his family members essentially on that show, and for all of them to have been funny in the way that they were, it was because he was so specific and intentional. So the lesson there, I think, is especially for anybody who's working in media these days, um, there is there is value in finding whatever your niche is and being very specific about the stories you tell, because that is where you find the goal. It's not trying to be um broad in general and trying to reach everyone because you'll never will.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 27:50

You know, you you first of all, you sound like you have fun putting this book together. Okay. I can't I can't imagine writing a book about funny. You know, that's what a gift. What a gift. You know, and there was a moment when you said Maxine Shaw, attorney at law. You know, you you the rhythm of it just speaks to the humor and and and the the ethos that we bring to our humor, to our comedy. So, so well done. Well done with that. Thank you. Uh so uh in in closing, uh for me, uh is there anything in the book, any moment that you found um to be particularly exciting, funny, or unexpected? And and what do you think the reader will find in having uh so here's my idea of a great book. And a great book is is when I'm walking down the street and I have to apologize because I'm bumping into people because I can't stop reading the book. You see, so that's my idea of a great book. But I think I expect that this book will have many people having been bumped into.

SPEAKER_02 29:07

I think that's right. I think for anybody who grew up with these shows or remembers them well, or even for younger people who are rediscovering them on streaming, the the origin stories of In Living Color and the origin story of Fresh Prince, to me is really interesting. And even I did a chapter on Family Matters, and I wasn't entirely sure if family matters really fit with the others because it wasn't necessarily a a black sitcom in the way that like Martin in a different world were. But for a uh for a certain sort of population of young black men who were who were growing up when Urkel was on TV, who were smart and ambitious, we know what it was to be called Urkel, right? So like that's that's why I wanted to include that chapter. And and and Jaleel White even talks about how he was a student at USC and there was a professor who tried to liken that character to sort of like to a like a buffoon type character. Um so that's in the book too, which is really interesting. But the the you know, the fact that Will Smith basically auditioned for that show in Quincy Jones's living room um and was completely unprepared, but he uh had run into tax trouble as a rapper and was trying to position himself and try to pivot from being a rapper to being a TV star. And Quincy Jones all but said, Look, if you want this show, you better go in there and audition for Brandon Tardikov, who was the head of NBC. And that's kind of what happened. And history writes the rest of that story. And with in Living Color, you know, how was it that we got just the list of celebrities that came off of that show? At the time they weren't, but you know, Jim Carrey, David Allen Greer, Jamie Fox, Damon Wayne, Sean and Marlon Wayans, Carrie Annanava, Rosie Perez, Jennifer Lopez, they all had their start on that show. And the chapter about In Living Color explains how that all happened.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 31:00

That's amazing. You say Kari Ananava, and I know her from Dancing with the Stars. I had no idea. Yeah, she was a fly girl. Yeah. My. That's right. That's right. Okay. I so I I am I am full of light and love and humor, and I'm ready to go back and just turn the pages slowly this time. So thank you so much, Jeff. Um Bill, any closing? Yeah, you're welcome. Any closing uh remarks, Bill?

SPEAKER_01 31:30

One closing question. Uh you mentioned Eddie Murphy, and it took me years to kind of look back in reverse because Eddie Murphy had had so much commercial success. But what he really did for black filmmakers, um, when I didn't realize it, and when you when you look at Eddie Murphy and the things that he did with Boomerang and those shows where he had those massive black casts, can you speak to that a little bit and his influence uh, you know, moving forward into the 90s?

SPEAKER_02 32:00

Eddie Murphy was huge. I mean, he saved SNL. He doesn't get enough credit for that, but he saved SNL. Um, he was the first black bankable star. Now, this book focuses on television, but the 90s, in my view, were unmatched in terms of black cultural creation, whether it was film, you know, you had Will Smith as the top box office star, Martin Lawrence was the same, Eddie Murphy, of course. In music, you had 90s RB is unmatched. In fashion, you had Carl Kenneth and EJ cross colors, the list goes on. But Eddie Murphy really spans all across all of it. I mean, he even put out music. Remember that song he did with Michael Jackson back in the day at party all the time, and then he had that song with Michael Jackson. But he was he was influential in all of it, and of course the fashion too. So I don't think he really I mean, obviously he's a comedy legend, but I don't think he gets the credit he deserves in terms of his cultural imprint just across the board. And you know, he had the show on television, the claymation show on television. He was obviously more of a stand-up and a film star than a TV star, but he was so influential to so many of the comedians who ended up on sitcoms, whether it was Will Smith or or Martin Lawrence, um, he was coming up around the same time as K and Ivory Wyatt. And as I tell people today, the nights that he was on Arsenio, um, those nights were unmatched in terms of late-night TV, like those Eddie Murphy nights when he would just pop up on Arsenio and they would just clown for a half hour. I mean, that that that still holds up.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 33:36

So, so let me ask you the impossible question, Kevin. How do we recreate that again?

SPEAKER_02 33:46

It I don't think it's possible to recreate it because there it there is not the financial economic support for it. Um in the sense that the bottom is basically falling out of broadcast television, it's all moving to streaming. Um, Netflix could potentially do it if they found a need. I mean, they've done this with podcasts. So the Breakfast Club, for instance, they were able to basically lure them from YouTube and now they're on Netflix. The problem is uh they're the viewership has dropped for the Breakfast Club on Netflix because people were habituated to watching it on YouTube, and you can comment on YouTube, you can't comment on Netflix. So, right now there's too much turn in the industry to allow for really the Renaissance, to use your phrase from earlier, the Renaissance that we saw in the 90s. What's happening now is people are finding success, but it's really siloed, and it might not be on a visual medium, so it might not be on TikTok or YouTube, it might be on Substack, it might be sort of in a print realm, it might be on Facebook, and so people are all in these sort of very different silos, and there's no one place of convening where we're all sort of watching the same thing. You see it sometimes in tent poll stuff like you know, maybe it might be the BET Awards or the NAACP image awards, or there might be a viral moment that people are sort of talking about. But um what we had 30 years ago in the 90s, I don't think you can replicate.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 35:16

You know, that worries me uh a little, uh Jeff, because for a community that had been historically fractured, intentionally fractured at times, um our our our access to each other is part of our cement, is part of what keeps us intact, you know, culturally identified, uh self-identified. Uh and so here we are with the advent of a technology that uh, to use your word, you know, uh creates silos of expression, uh, which is wonderful, but at the same time also sort of uh supports the idea of of uh not connectivity. Uh yeah. Yeah. So uh so there there there we go. We we leave it to you as a co-host of the PBS News Hour to make sure that uh that our sense of identity and cohesion remains intact because that is very much part of our contribution to American culture.

SPEAKER_02 36:22

Absolutely, absolutely. Well, well, thank you for the the conversation today, gentlemen. I deeply appreciate it. And again, thank you for the interest in the book.

Max Rodriguez of the Harlem Book Fair 36:31

Yeah, it's a great book, and and uh it's a great subject because you know I I I I remember as a kid I used to read my mom's reader's digest, and I would I would always turn to an article which was Laughter is the best medicine. You know, so so there we are. Thank you so much, Jeff. Uh Jeff for uh for joining us. We had an opportunity to speak uh with you about your book, uh Black Out Loud. Uh it's a uh uh an exploration into specifically into the the the 19 the 1990s and and sort of our our flowering into television and comedy and self-expression. And uh I think it's a book that everyone would want to enjoy and would want to remember. It's as much um a telling as it is uh a memoir, a biography, a story of you know our moving through the American landscape. So thank you very much, uh Jeff, for that. Thank you for doing that. That's high praise. Thank you, Max. Yeah, yeah. No, it's good work. It's good work. Thank you. It's important that our stories be told, and not because if they're not told, they're forgotten. You see? And and what I'm sorry, you got me going here. And what's important about what you did is that you've taken on what I call the you know our ancestral mandate, right? We we are tasked with making sure that those that those who came before us are remembered, but not just in memory, but in action and in growth, in building out from where they passed the baton to us. So this is your work. It may be a book, but it's so much more. It's the telling of our story. So thank you, Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Wow. That is that thank you. Thank you for keying in on that because that's what I saw to do. So I appreciate that.