Moments that shaped us

In this episode of Heart Matters with Father Norm and Gino, we reflect on some of the moments from our adolescence and early years that helped shape who we would become. From formative experiences to lessons learned along the way, we explore how those early seasons of life continue to influence our perspectives on faith, relationships, and purpose today.

Have comments, questions, or want to suggest topics for discussion? Leave a comment or e-mail us at heartmatterspcast@tgmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:04

Hey everybody, uh welcome back to Heart Matters with Father Norm and Gino. I'm Gino.

SPEAKER_01 0:11

And I'm Father Norm.

SPEAKER_00 0:14

And uh this is episode three now of our recording our podcast here. And the first episode we talked about how we met, um why we feel like some of these conversations matter. Uh our second episode, we talked about our childhoods and where we come from and some of those stories that shaped us. Um in this episode, we want to talk about um moments. We want to talk about those moments that shaped us. I think maybe a good segue question from our second episode talking about our childhood and our stories, and now you know, coming into this episode is you know, we talked about our childhoods a little bit and not in you know all the detail, but when you look back at your childhood and your experience um that you shared growing up in North Hill, um and in a you know a changing neighborhood and all those things, um, and it doesn't have to be, I guess, relevant to that specifically, but is there a childhood moment or something from your childhood context that you can see really translates to like now you being an adult and having some convictions there?

SPEAKER_01 1:30

Well, you know, I'm grateful that together we came up with that question because what that got me to do, which I really valued, is look back at my childhood in ways I hadn't for a while. Just and just to notice, yes, what are those factors and and kind of rediscovering them, if you will, and how, yep, they're still making a difference in me. One of the biggest ones, and uh give a little brief context that I think I've mentioned, I don't know I've mentioned here, but you know, when I was born in California, my mom, my biological dad disappeared. She met my stepdad, he was from Akron, Ohio. We came to Akron, North Hill, and then after three years, their relationship didn't work out. He had some issues with drinking and also would get mean. And so she took me and we went to an apartment just a few blocks away because my mom didn't drive. But now that's where the whole circumstance comes in. For me, people generally saw me then and now, you I'm sure you won't be surprised, as outgoing, fun-loving, positive, uh, you know, uh rambunctious, I guess, as a kid and all of that. Well, I was at, I wasn't Catholic at the time, and I was at a Sunday school and I was going there, and my Sunday school teacher, now that I look back, when I thought about it, was just a college kid, but I but I was in third grade, and so he was the adult. And this particular time, because my mom had separated from my stepdad, uh, I was going through some issues of uh, oh gosh, I don't have a dad, you know, uh neither one of them worked out. And and so for the first time, I didn't think it showed, uh, but I was kind of feeling lonely and down because all the other kids seemed to have this family, and I didn't. But my Sunday school teacher, first of all, noticed. And I think about that even as a follower of Jesus who noticed people and what we're called to be. He noticed me, and in a way, as he talked to me, I had a real sense that already that the like this is who Jesus is and what he who he's all about and wants to convey to us today. And so he asked me, he noticed, he said, something seems up with you. He said, What's what's wrong? And and uh, and I told him, I said, Well, you know, I don't have a dad. I said, twice now, either father, it didn't work out. I don't have a dad. All my other friends seem to have a father, seem to have this intact family, and I don't. And the one thing that he said, and I can share later about how it stayed with me as an adult, he said, Yes, you do. He said, You do have a father. God is your father, and he will never, ever abandon you. And so not only the statement, but the way he conveyed it in a very, if I look now, fatherly way toward me, really touched my life and has stayed with me ever since. And as I said, I can talk later about uh how that's play played out in my adulthood.

SPEAKER_00 4:39

Yeah, no, that's that's um strong. And I actually I resonate with a lot of that. So for me, I think I even shared here before, but you know, me not knowing my biological father growing up, um, and my stepfather being there ever since I was three, um, and it not working out until like I think uh my stepfather and my mom got a divorce when I was eleven. And um I remember, and this is going to answer my part of the question, but I remember as a kid growing up around family and things, and there were certain dynamics and tensions that I picked up on as a kid, but I didn't understand the context of things. So like I always thought that my stepfather was my biological father, but I did notice a difference in like the relationship with that side of the family and me and my little brother and that side of the family. And so there was like just different things that I didn't understand. And in contrast, I think for me in my childhood context, the big thing that I think my grandmother um, or I I I just can remember all these different moments in my childhood context where my grandmother made sure that I knew I had somebody in my corner. Like she was very intentional about being uh the ki I always say the gift of presence. Um my grandmother had this ability, um, and she even uh many people who uh uh spoke at her funeral and in the remarks had made reference to this feeling of of her ability to make uh people feel like they're the only person in the room. And I think for me that conviction uh and even part of the thing of I feel like in my own little way I can like carry on her legacy is by making people feel that. Making people feel like um that they're the only person in the room, uh regardless of whether the big CEO or you know, or if they're a homeless person on the street. If I have an interaction with them, I want to make eye contact, I want to have those those intentional like listening and all those different type of things. And so for me, I think that's the thing for me in my childhood that in my childhood context I feel like really translated into my my adult convictions is is that that idea of and and I can identify with it as I mentioned earlier, saying more that that Sunday school teacher, you know, like I'm what 78 years old?

SPEAKER_01 7:23

I was I was eight years old. This is 70 years ago, and I still remember vividly this story. And and as I got older, a couple things as uh you kind of mentioned with your grandmother, that uh I I I came to realize the importance of of really being attentive to people. And like I said, that this uh this Sunday school teacher was attentive. Because I've been in situations where people wouldn't notice or preoccupied with well, he's a Sunday school teacher, ironically, preoccupied with the lesson about Jesus and missing the opportunity to be a presence of Jesus. But no, he noticed it. So that stayed with me even in ministry over the years. Yes, how to have that sense of presence, how to be attentive, people, how to even notice, and then to respond in some way. And the other way he responded, he didn't lecture me, he didn't even quote scripture, uh, you know, there can be a place for that, but he simply said, you know, how are you doing? And then and then even being able to say, uh, you know, God is your father. So that as I grew up, interestingly enough, the impact on me, uh almost ironic, is as a priest, people call me father. And I remember, well, here there was that fatherly presence, and uh, and as an adult for me, realizing what a sacred responsibility that is, not only like you, you're a biological father, but even for men, a lot of men, just being able to father, sometimes men father other men, you know, and I've seen that in my life, and and and and recognizing the value of that. And and I think uh for that, having that spiritual dimension to it too, when he said, God is your father. I've never forgotten that. At times I drifted away, at times I where God are you, you're not the way I want you to be. But then I'd always come back because of what he said that stayed with me, resonated, and I said, Yeah, I need to remember that one more time.

SPEAKER_00 9:28

No, that's good. Um there was something you said that reminded me of just the father and being like men being that for for men who I so for me growing up I remember um feeling that disconnect with what a father is and my father, and how do I relate that way, and and I and really throughout my adulthood I wrestled with that that identity thing of like who is my father and what are the qualities of the father and what are proper expectations of a father, and what does fatherhood look like, and and all those different type of things. And there's speaking of moments, there was one moment years and years later, um, there was this organization I was a part of called the the takeover, and we had these different assemblies that that we would do. And I was in faith and everything, and I came to faith and was walking with Jesus or at least trying. And I remember this event and Isaac Middleton, shout out to Isaac, uh, but he it was right before the event started, and we were saying hi to everybody, and you know, I'm clapping hands and doing all this stuff. And I went to go clap his hand and he wouldn't, he just hugged me. And it was a weird, like, I was like, I was almost like thrown, like I was throwing back, like, why is he I don't know him like that of why he's hugging me. And then I remember just remember him like pouring time into me that day, and just like asking me those questions. Are you good? Like, just asking those questions. And I felt like in that moment, like something broke in me that made me more curious about pursuing like what does that mean? What is what is manhood to manhood, like uh affection and connection and relationship look like in a healthy way? Because I felt like I had only been exposed to unhealthy ways, and and so yeah, but maybe that's a good question. Um so we talked a little bit about those moments in our childhood context, but as an adult now, um are there or is there like a main turning point moment that you feel like you know after your childhood that this thing happened and everything changed from that?

SPEAKER_01 12:05

Yeah, yeah, for me, for starters, uh in high school, I mentioned that even though I, yes, I believe God was my father and and was touched by that early childhood experience, but I got away from it. In high school, I think I was declaring, like a lot of people do, their independence. Even independence from God. You know, did I believe in God? Yeah, but not real relevant or make a connection in my life. And then uh in in high school, an interesting thing happened. I shouldn't even call it interesting. It was I wrecked my car and right in front of North High School in front of all the kids, and they called me Crash from there on in. So that was so for so I was being dragged down for a moment there, and then some good friends uh uh because I I didn't have a car, and my mom didn't have a car, and I was I was dating at the time before I became a priest. People need to know that, you know. So I was dating and I wanted to double with somebody, and my friends, uh, most of them, nah, they just wanted to be on their own. I get that in high school. But two good friends, Fred and Eileen, that are still friends, they said, Oh yeah, you we'll double date with you. So I was in Fred's car with Eileen, and eventually years later, they got married and went to the homecoming dance and to the Christmas dance and to the prom, all double dating with them. Well, what that did then, because I hadn't been close to them before, but making that connection, then they asked me one time, would you like to come to church with us? They were Catholic. I at the time I would have said I was nothing. You know, a lot of people go through the nothing stage. And so anyway, I said, well, they said, yeah, it's Easter time. And I remember telling them, I think, because I wasn't that much into the religious sensibility, I said, well, it's Easter, it's going to be crowded. So that was my reason. So I got off the hook in a way. Well, they then asked me the week later. They said, Well, it's not crowded now. Why don't you come? And I remember thinking, and talk about ego, but I hate to admit this, I went with an attitude, well, Fred and I have been so nice. I've double dated with them. The least I can do is go with them to church since they asked me. You know, what a wonderful friend I am. And ironic, God could use that because I went, and at that particular time that I went to church, because they invited me and I hadn't gone anywhere for years, somehow, some way, probably going back to the early childhood, a religious spiritual sensibility came over me. And the crazy thing about it in the Catholic Church is the Sunday after Easter, the whole gospel every year is about Dowdy Thomas. In the story, doubting Thomas is the one who wasn't there when Jesus first appeared to his disciples. And oh, I don't know that I believe that he's really alive, and Jesus comes the next week and then says, you know, look at me, you can see the nail prints and so forth. I am risen and do not doubt, have faith. So that there I am, that's the gospel I'm hearing, and it's like it's striking me right in the heart, because that was me, you know. Had I believed in Jesus, yeah, but that was like a childhood thing. Now all of a sudden, and that turned my life around. I started going to church regularly with Fred Eileen for a while, and then the following fall, when I went to the University of Backron, the Newman Center was a Catholic student center. Again, interestingly enough, with the themes in my life, the priest there, who they called father, he was 35, I was 18, he was new there, but he was wonderful. And I began to take instructions and talk with him, but it was not just about dogmas or doctrines, it was about life, difference Jesus can make in our life. So, in a way, in those young adult years, and I see how important that, he was he was fathering me in a way that I didn't even realize I needed. So, from Fred Dylan to Father Tom Dunfee, to all of that, redirected my life so that it wasn't long after that that I heard the call of Father God calling me to be a priest. And just briefly I'll say, Well, wait a second, God, I'm not serious enough to be a priest. Because I wasn't. I was always a cut up and being lighthearted, but I can tell you this, and it never went away, because this was not long after I became Catholic. I heard the Lord say, when I thought, okay, that this is the reason he'll say, You're right, you're too, you're not serious enough. But instead of that, I heard the Lord speaking, that voice deep within saying, that's why I'm calling you to be a priest. I want your joy. I want your joy. That stayed with me and has influenced all my life.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

No, that's really, really it's really, really good. I think also it's it's interesting to me that oftentimes the thing that breaks us as children is most times uh equipping for whatever it was that you were lacking. So like the irony is that though you had those experiences um with your fathers, right? Um you had like God almost replaced the the lack with people in your you know, your formative years that help heal that brokenness to the point to now you're the agent in which you get to give that same type of gift and affection to people. And that that's a that's a beautiful way that like in your story that I can see that like God put all of those things like back together and you know that idea of shalom and and restoration.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

So for you now, how does that resonate to you and your own story? People can look at the two of us and think they come from very different backgrounds, and yet there's some common ground, and part of that is holy ground.

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Yeah, I I think for me, um, a lot of my I it's it's hard to say a moment because it feels like there were several moments that happened, and it took a long time for me to understand that God doesn't always sound like James Earl Jones. Yeah. Where um, you know, in the movies it's always depicted as this voice from heaven that is you know deep and and shakes the earth when it speaks. Um but God often speaks in moments, and um and sometimes there they're opportunities for learning, sometimes they're just things that show us ourselves. And I felt like I can point back, and there were so many different moments like the Isaac moment, so many different moments uh with my grandmother, so many different moments that helped to that I can now see that like, oh, in the moment I was thinking, oh, this is my grandmother, or in the moment this is Isaac. But really, what it was, it was God using those people that like put his fingerprint on these different moments for me that I felt like culminated into like, yeah, me coming to faith, but also it felt like though I had some religious background and some learning and things from the school and from St. Mary's and the religion classes and the uh theological classes and things like that, they were all academic up until that moment where I came to faith in my brother's basement. And but after that, the thing that I felt like was unique that I didn't always have or didn't always share the same experience with people around me, was there were more of those moments. Like when I first came to faith, I can point to more moments than I can scriptures. Yeah. Um those moments like were almost like um they were exposing me. Like I feel like Paul when he says um the experience experiential knowledge uh of Christ, like I felt like that. I felt like I was getting access and learning that, and then I would sit down with my Bible because a lot of the people I was around they were studying their Bibles and things, and so I was like, Well, if if I'm gonna do this God thing, I know it has something to do with this. Oh yeah, and I would find myself lost in like the Bible, and I would just read for like hours, and I look up, and there'd be like four hours that pass, and it was it was so interesting to me because it wasn't like I was reading to learn, it was I was reading things and like oh, it's explaining the experiences that I'm having. And that was the thing that like validated God being real for me. It wasn't like oh I heard this sermon and I was so moved by the sermon that I like gave my life to Christ. It was like this desperation moment that led to experiential moments that led to me digging in my my word, and from that then starting to get explanations, spiritual explanations for what I was experiencing, and then everything felt like it was aligning, like things were coming in order, and then at the same time, as I'm trying to be obedient to that, and like you know, repenting of things and and stumbling and falling and failing and all those different type of things, um, opportunities uh were were happening, and then community were coming around me and all these different types of things, and then that. Just really has really been the pattern for me all the way up until now.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

No, I can identify that in this sense too, that even when I came to that Sunday after Easter and heard the Doubting Thomas story, and it struck me. Well, it struck me because of the experience I had before, and the experience of resisting, and I'm not into this faith thing, and it's for kids, but because that's where I was, and then that scripture spoke to where I was and challenged me in a way like, whoa, almost like hearing similar, like, God, you are definitely speaking through this. I can't run from this.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Yeah, and and that's the and I think that's the thing is I think oftentimes people expect God to be either very challenging but not supportive, or very supportive and not challenging. And the reality is he's both. And oftentimes when he speaks to us, it's both. It's hey, I recognize exactly where you are, um, and I love you enough, and I'm gonna love you exactly where you are, but also I love you enough not to let you stay there, and so I'm gonna challenge you to to develop and to grow and to like um, you know, it doesn't make sense for uh me to continue to carry my my eight-foot, no, I'm joking, she's almost five foot uh daughter uh and baby and you know bottle feed her right now, that would be inappropriate because she has the maturity and the capacity to drink on her own. But I it would be irresponsible of me as a father to do that. Like I have to eventually get to a point to where I create space for her to be able to grow and to mature and to be able to do those things on her own. And so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah, and you know what strikes me too when I think about being a priest now 51 years, and often people will say, Father Norm, I'm really moved or inspired or struck by some of the stories you tell. Back to that whole life experience. That if I share a story and that that resonates with their experience, there was a psychologist that one time said, that which is most deeply personal is most universal. So I'll share stories as I hit did here, or even other stories. Another time I'll maybe connect about like when my mom got very ill and went through a lot with that. But uh, but sharing that story, uh, other people would say, wow. Yes, there was scripture that tapped into it, but it was the story, a life experience, maybe grounded in that scripture that had said, Oh yeah, now I see more clearly how God was at work.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

Yeah. One of my favorite ways of preaching is narrative preaching. Yeah, in the sense of like telling the story, um and telling a story that like is driving home the heart of what the scripture is saying and then tying scripture back into it because of that reason. I think people are are are um it's more personable, it's more, it's easier for people to connect to a story, and it's harder for you to deny a person's story than it is a person's theology. Right. And so like that, I think that's the power in sharing experiences, especially with differences. You sharing your story and your childhood and where you come from, me sharing my story, my childhood, and where I come from, the problems I had, the problems you had, the greatness I had, the greatness that you had, and be able being able to be exposed to that helps um to help um relate and build relationship and connection.

SPEAKER_01 25:51

Yeah, and going back to uh that phrase that I've never forgotten. I don't remember the psychologists who said it, that that which is most deeply personal is most universal. And I know we've talked, and we'll probably talk again, even about the black-white experience and everything, but it helped me even then. Hey, wait a second. There's differences and they're real, and we and we can acknowledge that. But on the deepest level, that which is most deeply personal in you, in me, in the folks that may be listening, it is most universal. And there's a connection there. I think too often today we highlight, and sometimes in a negative way, our differences. Yes, there's the value and richness of diversity, but even that diversity that says, you know, underneath it all, we're human after all. Underneath it all, even what we call this program, heart matters, that it it's it's the heart of each of us that, wow, then says we we connect in a heart-to-heart way.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

Yeah, yeah, no, I I agree. I think, I mean, what would the world look like if we did more of that? What would politics look like if we did more of that? If we were more curious about where and what shape these perspectives, and be humble enough to be open to realities that don't match up exactly to our own. Um I feel like those are the the elements of truly building relationship that matters and um and opening your heart enough to be able to build that connection and relationship because the reality is you know I don't get to see a certain aspect of God apart from you. And you don't get to see a certain aspect of God apart from me. We are both image bearers of God, and though we might dirty that up, and though we might fall short, and though we might whatever, there's an element of God's fingerprint that I don't get access to if I don't break that barrier of difference. And so, yeah, I mean I know we're we're we're wrapping up here.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

Near the end here, yeah, and and just always, again, I think this relating. And my hope, and I'm sure it's your hope, part of doing this is not just to hear each other talk. We've we've had some of these conversations over a nice lunch. They don't feed us here, that's okay. But anyway, but yeah, that the resonating is that, yeah, and that for other people to see this, so often where there's differences, I don't care whether it's race, religion, politics, when we can, and and I think about the the that the Sunday school teacher when I was eight years old, wanting to hear my story. And so in everything, and just like us doing here, and I'd encourage everybody, get to hear not just each other's political viewpoint or race or whatever, but the story underneath it all that connects us.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Yeah, because that's I mean, typically that's the the heart of the matter. Oh, yeah. Pun intended. Uh but I mean that wraps up our time today. Uh we want to thank you for tuning in uh with me and Father Norm. Make sure that you like and subscribe. Um anything else you want to leave the people with?

SPEAKER_01 29:10

Uh no, I'd say because I know how I am. If if hopefully you've tuned in for the whole 30 minutes, if not, we understand. If you've hung in there, we're grateful. But I say, yeah, maybe if even there's one thing from what we shared. It's not that we got the greatest wisdom in the world, but maybe one thing that struck you, maybe one thing that uh that spoke to your life story, maybe reflect on that and be encouraged to share some of your life story with other people and be ready to want to hear theirs.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

And share it in the comments. Uh we want to hear what those things are, what things resonate. Um, if there's things that you would like us to talk about or subject matters that you would like us to talk about, or you want to get our perspectives from, uh, we would love that. Uh, we wanted to make sure that we were intentional about setting some ground, you know, foundation stuff of just who we are, where we come from, and and those different types of things. Um, but we really want to be interactive. We want to, we I I think I speak for both of us. And it's great talking to one another, but we we love interacting with people, we love hearing people's uh questions and things like that. So if you have questions, if you have things that you would like us to talk about, please uh comment, message us, do all the things. But again, we appreciate you coming in and tuning in with us. Uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:36

And finally, I'll say this. Thank you for watching. And if you have difficult questions, address them to Gino.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

I'll take them. I might not answer them, but I'll take them. All right, thank you.