Heart Matters - Easter isn't over

In this episode of Heart Matters with Father Norm and Gino, we unpack a deeper understanding of Easter—not just as a day, but as an ongoing season that shapes how we live and lead. We explore the evolution of the early Church in Acts, tracing how a grassroots movement grew and adapted beyond its origins.

Along the way, we challenge the tendency to lead with our own agendas and instead lean into the transformative power of meeting people where they are. This conversation bridges theology, history, and practical leadership, offering a grounded perspective on what it really means to carry the message forward today.

Have comments, questions, or want to suggest topics for discussion? Leave a comment or e-mail us at heartmatterspcast@tgmail.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Hello everyone. Uh Father Norm, I'm here with Gino. And Gino, I'll let you introduce yourself. We've been having several sessions. Many of you have seen them, some of you haven't. Uh Gino, go ahead, your comments as we start off.

SPEAKER_00 0:20

I'm Gino. Yeah. How many episodes are we in now? I don't know. Nine. Eight, nine, something like that. And he still puts up with me, so I'm here. And you haven't kicked again, you haven't kicked my name. I'm I'm amazed every time I come in and my name is still on the so thank you for your graciousness.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yes. But it's Father Norman, just plain old Jesus. Exactly. I know my place. Much more than that. I know my place. I know what's going on. I don't know if people have done some of this in order, but uh uh last time uh we talked a lot about we were right in the middle of uh approaching Easter and and kind of talked about the the whole leading up to Easter, Jesus' life and the rituals that in various churches and the Easter season. And now I I think one of the things I know in our tradition, just to mention this briefly, in the Catholic tradition, there's been an emphasis that the Easter season is actually uh uh fi 50 days. Uh it leads up to in the season from Easter all the way to Pentecost. And so that's often spoken of. Easter isn't just a day, it's it's a season. I mean, 50 days, the reality is the Easter and its implications should influence our whole life. But I know we reflect a lot in that time about the early Christian community, that's formation, that uh after the death and resurrection and and and the early disciples uh encountering the uh Jesus the risen Lord and how that influenced who they were and their outreach to others. I guess want to ask you in that early Christian formation, your your thoughts about that and how that unfolded from Easter.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Yeah, um Acts, so Acts 2, that whole chapter is one of my favorite sections of scripture and all of Scripture, uh, in that it explains or it explains the initiation of what we now call the church, but also it is almost the initiation through which we start to view the other chapters through this, like almost the struggle of these early people who have now post-resurrection are trying to figure it out, right? Um, this Holy Spirit that they get in Acts chapter 2 doesn't really come with the manual. And so they're you know, the majority of them don't um own, you know, paperback scriptures or books, uh Bibles, and so they are they have this experience, this encounter, and now they're trying to figure out like what does this actually mean? You know, what are the implications of this new uh gift that we've been given? Um, you know, what are the implications of the cross? What are the implications of the resurrection? And you know, you start to look at the latter parts of Acts chapter 2, you know, around verse 42, 41, 42, and you start to see, you know, them start to actually implement some practices, that they start to um dedicate time to learn from the apostles and their teaching, that they dedicate time to eat with one another, they dedicate time to fellowship with one another, um, and then they dedicate time to be in these common places with one another and to to live life on life and the in these different types of things. And so there's a there's a deep sense of community. Um, and even in even in that community, there is diversity, but in Acts chapter 2, there's a diversity amongst Jewish folks, right? So though there is some difference in language, there is some difference in um cultural experience, um, there is a synergy when it comes to their belief systems, their traditions, uh, and the things that are tied to them. And then as you grow out uh after Acts chapter 2, and you start to look into some of these later chapters, you start to see that this now movement of momentum is now like leading them into connection with all of this world around them and cultures that are not like theirs and belief systems that are not like theirs, and how they start to navigate those things are are are really uh I think impactful, impactful, insightful, and just interesting.

SPEAKER_01 4:46

Well, and you mentioned it that that first community basically had Jewish origins, and so there was a common ground. At the same time, in that Jewish origins, many of them were being rejected by their Jewish families who were remaining Jewish and see what they're doing. Hey, you're following this Jesus, yeah, we've heard things about him, but all of a sudden you have these these new ideas of God and what you're called to be about. And and I don't know uh maybe some thoughts for you like that, because there had to be tension in family life between somebody who's excited about Jesus and somebody says, Hey, wait a second, he's a heretic. We heard about that.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

Yeah, um, because uh it's almost like the Jewish folks are well versed in what scripture says. And then you have Jesus who comes along and almost highlights and enlightens people to what the scriptures mean. And sometimes those can be, or they can feel like they're at odds. Um, like Jesus says in a way like I did not come to get rid of the law, but yet to fulfill it. Yeah, right. And so there are these elements of tradition and how things have always been and how we have come to understand things, and then there's this this other element of this Holy Spirit now that is um where the law was bringing sin and death and our inability to achieve it. The spirit is now giving us empowerment to actually fulfill what it is that the law is actually trying to get through us. And so there's an there's a there's a natural tension just in that, I think, in an individual. But then you start to add, you know, elements outside of that, meaning family, culture, you know, uh religious uh systems, uh political systems on top of that, and and that can be very, very complex, confusing, and um, and yeah, it just leaves some room for polarity and and and those things. So um, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:54

Uh yeah, and it I suppose one I think in addition to Acts, uh shift too, is when the conversion of of Saul, Saint it becomes Saint Paul, you know, and he he he was a Jewish Pharisee. I mean, he was rigid about the rules. In fact, as so many Christians and others may know, he was very critical of these people following Jesus. In fact, uh he was initially watching when Stephen, who had been a deacon in the in the Christian church, was stoned to death, and and and Saul was right there uh you know, speaking forward. Yeah, look at this person. He's against the Jewish faith, we need to stone him. And they did, you know, and then that dramatic conversion that happens not long afterward, where uh he encounters the risen Jesus and and his life has changed. He sees this person is for real. But what strikes me too, or and your thoughts too, that even we can have today, so even when when Saul becomes Paul, first of all, some people, Christians, were nervous about him. Is this a real conversion? Uh some people who were into his Christian faith, uh, well, we're not sure about this. And then some of the tension, because he was strong about reaching out to the wider Gentile community and some of those early uh Jewish people, hey, it it's Jesus was Jewish and it's about us, and and should we really be going out in that direction? And yeah, what does that speak to you or anything that even ties in with something today?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah, I mean, the thing that I find fascinating in the book of Acts and in the different approaches of the different uh different apostles is that their gospel changes or seems to be changing depending on who the audience is. So you see Acts chapter 2, you see Peter and his his communication with the diverse Jews that are amongst you know the people there, is very oriented towards their Jewish tradition. He goes through a Jewish historical lesson, he talks about the prophets that were sent there, um, and all these other types of things, and then you get to like Philip, where he's talking to um the the uh Samaritans who understand the Torah but don't acknowledge the prophets. You don't see him actually acknowledge the prophets, he just acknowledges the Torah. And then you see in you know Acts chapter 10, you see Peter, you know, engaging with uh Cornelius, and and and it's it's always seems to be it's rooted in the other's experience, right? Which I think is important, and I think getting to what we're trying to get to is that the apostles I think realized that in order to be effective and effectively communicate the good news that Christ has died and resurrected and all the implications of it, that you have to start where people are at and not with what you're trying to communicate. Um because if if and honestly, maybe I mean in context, if you give the Peter that's in Acts chapter 2 access to the same audience as Philip, that might not go as well because he might try to go through this whole Jewish tradition, and you know, that might not actually be what was there. And and I think later on we see this tension. We see this tension between Peter, we see this tension between Paul because essentially with the the devout, you know, uh Jewish folks are or the devout Jews are saying in criticism of Paul is that he's making it too easy for these Gentiles. Yeah, like they need to be more like us. Yeah. Um and Paul is like, no, well, like you're missing, you're missing the point. And it it culminates till where now they have to have a council to talk about these things, right? And to they argue it out and they have these these these conversations, and at the end of it, it says that it pleased them to basically give like only three real strict uh you know rules. Is it's basically a rule about idolatry, there's a rule about um you know you know, not not eating anything that's that's sacrificed to idols, stay away for sexual immorality, essentially, and in their words, and you'll do good. Yeah. Stay away from those things. And then and really, I think at the heart of that, because that is a pastoral letter to those, I mean uh a pastoral instruction to those people that would, you know, submit to that rule. But ultimately, like what I think at the heart of it was hey, stay away from these things that could actually um have a hard impact on the atmosphere for the Holy Spirit to actually do what it's trying to do in you. Like, create a a culture within your life and within your heart that you are open and sensitive to what it is that God wants to do. Let God be God, let the Holy Spirit be the Holy Spirit, let the Holy Spirit lead you into sanctification as opposed to you trying to just do a bunch of rules and trying to stick to those rules, and you'll do good. Yeah. Right. You know, I don't even know if I answered your question, but it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 12:22

Didn't he answer them? Hey. Yeah, yeah. No, very reflective, good stuff. Made me think a little bit about uh Saint Paul again, that that that spirit of openness, you know, to uh to uh to when he comes to people. Uh one of my favorite passages is is when he uh uh talks to uh the leaders in Athens and and talking about their sense of gods or God, and rather than putting that down, he said the uh uh the God that you're trying to understand, I'm here to share with you Jesus Christ. That's who that person is. But he didn't put that down, and I know for missionaries through the centuries, and and I know because I know more some of the Catholic tradition, uh for a period of time, the missionaries would go all around the world, and some of them would go around the world and say, You're sinful, you're wrong, we're bringing you Jesus, get it right. You know, in fact, there was some even legitimate criticism about some of the missionaries in California, the early missions, the Spanish going there, and almost some of the Native Americans being put down, and not even have a chance to for the Spaniards to say, Well, help us to understand who you are, how you understand God, uh what your culture's like, and we want to share something with you. A lot of times, not always, it was imposed. And and you either accept this or you die. I mean, and almost like saying, Well, this is what Jesus would want. Jesus would want you to know this, so we got to tell you. In in recent years, probably the last 60, 70, maybe a little more, even in the Catholic Church have said, hey, when you go, when it kind of like uh Paul with Athens, when you go to any place, don't first of all say, hey, we're here to bring you Jesus, and you better accept this Jesus in this way or else. We're he said, first of all, go, listen to the people, hear how they look at their sense of value and meaning to life, uh, be open to their story, and then share with them, but first of all, listening to them, and that we're not trying to impose something on you that, and this is so important today, even evangelization, uh, to listen and to say, hey, here's some, wow, you mentioned some good things, here's some things we uh but want to pass on to you about Jesus that maybe from what you said you would find great meaning and purpose to that uh and and and see a value in looking into that and being open to that rather than accept Jesus in the way we've understood him or else.

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Yeah, yeah. I think yeah, I think Christianity becomes something different when it stops being about the Christ. So like when it can stay about the Christ and we be just followers of that Christ, that's different than when we do things that are really about us, but we use Christ's name to cover it. I it reminds me of what you said a few episodes ago of like um that God is uh you know a great disguise for the ego. Yeah. Um and I I think that's so true. I think that a lot of times people just do things in the name of Christ, but it's really just things that that that uh you know address their own their own agenda. Right. But if we follow Christ and follow the way that Christ did things, he was very he was the perfect illustration not only of humility, but of of one that would enter in other people's experiences um and engage them there. Yeah. Right. And I think it is that heart that we start to see in the book of Acts. It's the heart that we really see throughout the rest of the scriptures, um, that there's an engagement and a dialogue where people are that makes it relevant and um real and tangible for people. And I I think honestly connecting that to now, I think a lot of times people don't have or don't feel um that the church oftentimes has relevance because of the lack of ability or at least the lack of what they see of the the church being engaged and and those things being made clear of like the spiritual and practical implications of what the gospel actually means today. Um, and I see that in our relationships, I see that in, you know, oftentimes in our sermons, I see that in across the board, you know.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

But yeah, one of the examples, and I may have used this previously too, that always stayed with me was uh Jesus with the woman at the well, you know, and obviously Jesus taught repeatedly marriage is meant to be a permanent commitment. So teaching clearly there's ideals to live by uh that the Lord wants us, that that's where we'll find true peace and true relationship and true coming together in the way God wants the human family. At the same time, the woman at the well, when he sees her and they talk, and he she's even, why are you talking to me? You're a rabbi, you're you're Jew, I'm a Samaritan, these we don't we hate each other, uh men aren't supposed to talk to a woman in public like this. But first of all, he breaks through those taboos, but then she's struck, real struck, because he says, Yeah, I I know you. I uh you had five husbands, and the man you have now is not your husband. Whoa, you know, so names what she's going through at the same time uh saying accepting her. I mean, not not saying all that all that you did was right, no, but say here, I care about you, I love you, the God I'm trying to show through me, Jesus, uh, loves you and accepts you. And and that was huge because of her being a Samaritan and that sense that he started off with a good sense of accepting her. I know acceptance can go too far one way, oh you just accept anybody and everybody for whatever, and God loves you. You can go too far that way. But on the other hand, uh I know so many of the people in my years that have even come to a faith have sometimes come to a faith because somebody reached out to them and accepted them where they were, whatever that mess was, as Jesus did often with different people, and yet then had that kind of conversation back and forth about how this faith can free you up and give you the hope and meaning and love you were looking for and didn't see it there.

SPEAKER_00 19:03

Yeah, and even to take that even a step further, if you think about the cultural implications of what that meant for that woman, you think about the practical implications with the political implications of what that meant for that woman, and you know, even just the religious implications of what that meant for that woman, and she comes from a town that Jesus just send his disciples in after he just told them about, you know, carrying this message and delivering this message and be and being good news to these people and all this, and and preaching the good news uh of the kingdom, right? Um they miss they they don't actually engage with the people that and it's this woman that then goes into the same place and she brings the whole town like to Jesus, right? And so this unlikely character and the cultural story and the you know the religious story and the is the one that God used to bring these these these people. And so I think I think that God's acceptance is not the same as our acceptance. And our standard of what is acceptable and who is acceptable is different from from God's because we constantly are looking at the outer, the external implications of people, and God is always looking at the internal and what's the actual heart of people and and um and I think that just as a whole, not not just saying everybody, but generally as a whole, we don't really do a good job in in the at least in the West, of being able to um love people in a way in that in that same manner and to see the good and to to truly even see people. We just see the external, we just see what we know about them and and we give that a give that as a license for ourselves to to write people off sometimes.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

So yeah, and I I know thinking back to again the woman at the well, that uh number of times I've had people come in and want to talk to me, maybe a friend encouraged them, and uh they come in and maybe they feel like that woman would have felt like my life's been messed up, I probably don't even belong here. Uh should I come one? Welcome, yeah. Hey, first of all, we're all messed up in different ways. Not to excuse that, but like it's not you're coming into this holy people, we're all got it all together, you don't, so should I even show up? Yeah, you belong among us, you know, and and and and also uh recognizing that, maybe going back to even when uh when St. Paul was talking uh in in Athens, that I'd often talk to people, uh, share with me a little bit of your story. And they'd share. And in the story, and I get it, and there's some degree of truth, they'd say, Well, God's never been in that story because I did this, I I was wrong here, I committed this. Great sin and and to talk and to ask questions. That's uh maybe in a way to see, could you see God was already in your story? Maybe you were oblivious. Hey, we all are at times, didn't work, but it's not like okay, now you're here, so so God showed up. Might he have been, you know, been with you this whole time leading you this step. Did he concur with your sin? No. But was he there from the very start? Yeah, because God reaches out to the hurting, the lonely, the sinners. Whatever excuse you want to say, he would not want to have anything to do with me, hey, he's had wanted to have everything to do with you, and now you see it, you get it, and you're open to it.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

Yeah, and for me, I think that that I think what you just said is the heart of discipleship. Yeah. Is is that it is the because we don't truly make disciples, but we affirm what it is that God has created and is creating in a in an individual, and then it's the process by which we are making that person more acclimated with that reality. And then it's for them to recognize, you know, who it is that God has called them to be, who it is that God is is is shaping them to be, and learning how to engage with that themselves, and then also teaching others to to do the same. Um and I think that we shortcut discipleship when we make it about ourselves, yeah, or when we make it about just transferring information or transferring or trying to do behavior monitoring. Yeah. Um like that's just behavior modification, that's not a true transformation. And transformation happens internally, it happens when you know uh a certain level of internal accountability, um the scriptures uh speak of in conviction, right? Like that the deeper in in internal conviction um is something that uh is is initiating change and initiating uh this process of of me just becoming who I already am in a in a much deeper sense.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah. It's funny. Another scripture, because I reflect on certain scriptures during the season of Lent in a in a deeper way. And one of them, which is so familiar to people, and yet not, is the parable of the prodigal son. You know, and you you have that story of uh of the prodigal son who's who is leaving, you know, and the image can be Jesus uses the story to make a point, but uh but believing the goodness of the father and the comfort and everything, but wants to be independent, wants to do it on his own, wants to get out there and and find all the stuff that he thinks is gonna make him really happy, you know, and the father lets him go, you know. Uh not and I think of God the Father, hey, he's not gonna force us, he's gonna love us and maybe let us go, even like there, that hopefully the father's still at work in this son's life, that you'll come to realize what you thought was gonna be great, and now I I'm free and I don't have religious restrictions and I'm not homebound, I can do whatever I want, and of course he does, and messes up all the more. But what's also striking to that is again, talk about an image of God, because I may think Jesus wanted to give us a better image, saying, There's no way the father would accept me back. I gotta grovel, I gotta come back, I gotta say, you know, I messed up, I don't deserve to be your son, you know, all of that. And and of course, that image and the power of the story of the father even sees him a long way off and runs to him, you know, and and he says, Oh, I'll just I'll just be your servant and everything. And no, not no, you're you're still you've always been my son, you're still my son, and I'm glad you're back, you know. And then of course, uh, and I've talked about this in Bible studies with people too, the caution of the elder son who basically says, Hey, I've done everything I was supposed to, I kept all the rules, I've done at home, you know, and and and and this guy comes and you're gonna throw a party for him. And the and the and that son is resentful. You know, and sometimes in Bible studies, especially where you can have a conversation, I've asked, have you ever, you know, when you look at this situation, been uh either the younger son at some point in your life and or the elder son? It was probably we can be both both. Once we get it all together, then we can look back. But but but that thing of, and it's so difficult, and I think we talk about today, that fine line, that elder son, yes, he's got values, he's got convictions, he's he's living it, but that that fine line between righteous and self-righteous, and the righteous would be, in the good sense of scripture, would be, hey, my my uh younger son is back. I'm just oh father, I'm so glad. I I I want to be there with you when we both accept him. He couldn't come to terms with that, and of course, I think sometimes any of us, well, wherever we're coming from, could get into a little bit of that self-righteousness. Well, uh you know, uh look, I've done this whole my life, and you think you're gonna just jump in at the last minute?

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah. Man, there's we don't have enough time to actually unpack all the things that you just talked about. The thing that pops in my head though is Romans chapter one, where it talks about um how these men take truth and hold it in their own wickedness. And I think there's a polar opposite um yeah, it's just just a polar or polarized difference between truth and humility and truth and self-righteousness. Truth and humility um allows allows it it almost deals with security, right? There's a sense of security in an individual, and so they are open to the truth even if it is even if the implications of the truth is um correction.

SPEAKER_01 28:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:28

And and almost like recourse setting. But on the opposite side of that, if that truth is held in self-righteousness and wickedness, it becomes more about my personal view. Yeah. And no openness to the truth. Truth and humility says maybe maybe the truth that I am sure of might be wrong, or maybe the truth that I am sure of may only be a part of the truth. And maybe there's another side of this truth that I'm not seeing. Let me be open to that. Um and I think that that sometimes fuels division. It fuels, you know, so many things that we don't have enough time on.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

No, no, no, thank you. And and uh, you know, I gotta tell you, you always focus such things just very clearly. I mean, I I I love listening to you, how you put things and a perspective. And really, uh, one of those things, that that humility. You know, because you're right. I think in our culture today, in everything, the division, the hostility, the arguments, you know, uh there's so much more we can talk about, probably will in the future, but that that humility to say, hey, I need to hear the other person. One, I need to hear their story to be understanding and loving. Two, I need to hear their story because maybe there's something in their story I need to hear and look inside of myself and not just focus on them.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Yeah, and not to not to go over time, but we do. But I think that that speaks of of Peter and Cornelius. Peter and Cornelius is my one of my second favorite uh and if we we don't have time to go through it all, but at the so in in the part of it, Cornelius is basically he's already wrestling with the implications of what does this thing mean? And so he's already given alms, he's already doing things like that are implying that he wants to believe, but he's only believing a certain aspect, sure, and he needs Peter, and so God arranges for Peter to come. And so Peter has something that Cornelius needs, but Cornelius has something that Peter needs. And so many times we look at like, oh, the the person that's being served has nothing to actually give us, but the person that's being served usually has the most to give. And it's after this interaction that Peter says, Now I see that there is no partiality with God, that God's and so yeah, I think that all in all we need each other. Yeah, right? We need each other's perspectives, we need each other's experiences, we need each other's differences, because somewhere in all of that is truth. And then we have an opportunity to take that and to engage with that in humility or to engage in that in self-righteousness.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

Well, I know, and I know I know you too. I value so much of this conversation that we have, and I guess one of the things we've said even in the beginning, my hope is that some people uh watching and so forth might say, gosh, I need to get in one of those conversations, whether it's it it's a person of different color or the same, uh whoever, because sometimes no matter any of us don't really have conversations on this level, you don't have to have all the insights, but just a heart-to-heart understanding of one another. So thank you. This is a gift to me, even if nobody else watches.

SPEAKER_00 31:55

Same, same. So it's it's good. Hopefully, people will watch. Yes, thank you. I mean, that's a good segue. If you do have questions or if you have um subjects that you want to talk about or um suggestions that you, you know, maybe you're like, uh, we don't like your platform. We don't like the way that you I don't know, whatever. Um, you know, we're offering engagement. So if you have any questions, comments, things that you would like for us to talk about, um, please comment, let us know, email us, get a hold of us. Any last words?

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Uh amen.

SPEAKER_00 32:30

Amen to that. Thank you. Appreciate you. See you next time.