Faithful Leadership in Challenging Times

A Conversation with Gino and Father Norm exploring how faith, self-awareness, and personal character shape effective leadership on every level.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:05

Hello everyone. Father Norm here. Another opportunity to be with you, and I'm sure for many of you, maybe not everybody, this may be a first time for you here with Gino. Uh we have this great friendship. We connect, we've been able to do these podcasts, and uh and I'll tell you it's been good for us too, because this isn't overly rehearsed. You might be able to tell that, uh, but it's it's a way to connect on a deeper level. Hey, Gino, thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Thank you. Thank you for putting up with me and allowing me to still be here. Okay. Again, I'm amazed every time my name's still on there.

SPEAKER_01 0:40

So whoa. Mr. and Mr. Humility. So, which which reminds me, thinking of that, that um there's been a at this time, probably a lot of folks who are watching, even if they watch it a little bit later, there's been a lot of conversation, media worldwide, about this connection between uh Pope Leo and uh and our president uh about some of the back and forth uh what they're talking about. And I know for me, just briefly to say, uh I'm really struck, obviously I'm the Catholic priest and and had a lot of uh uh popes that that I'd look up to and say, yeah, thank you. You're representing the Lord, you're representing our faith in a good way. But just briefly to say, you know, we talk about leadership, uh, because we've both been involved in being leaders and in being led. And uh when I look at this Pope, I guess one of the things, it's what I just started with, humility. I'm just struck. You know, the Pope obviously he could get caught up in that, in a big ego, because he's a worldwide figure. And yet, even in all that's going on, he all he always comes across in a very sincere, humble way. Not a know-it-all or not I'm here and it's it's feeding my ego. Uh anyway, your thoughts about that or about anything with leadership?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Um yeah, no, I think for me, you know, there's a tool that I use that talks about or what it means to be a receptive leader, um, a person who is has a sense of security, has a sense of of humility, um, and also can be like um teachable in a sense. Um and then you have people who are on the opposite of the side of that uh are you know maybe arrogant, um maybe uh prideful and insecure, right? And so um yeah, I think to be a good leader you do need to ha carry yourself in humility, you need to be self-aware, you need to know your strengths, your weaknesses, and have a sense of security about those things, both both your your strengths and your weaknesses. Um but you also need to be able to uh have a sense of uh objective objectivity to be able to navigate other people, navigate people that might think differently than you, might process things differently than you, might have different personality traits in you, those different types of things. So I'm always interested, um you know, outside of the political implications, I'm always interested in those dynamics when these type of of events happen. So um it is striking um the vast differences in the approach in those conversations, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:39

Yeah, yeah. And even there, I think, uh, with those different approaches, let's face it, in our country today, uh there can be very different outlooks on each of those persons and who they are and what they do and how and why they do it. I mean, I I can understand when somebody, well, you know, Trump he he he calls it the way he sees it. He's very assertive, he gets out there and makes things happen that need to be named and wants it to go forward. Others may say, oh, he's arrogant, he's too pushy, he's not sensitive enough, he doesn't care enough. That strikes me too, that whoever it is, even in this situation, two different people can see it differently. I want to ask you about that. Why do you think that is? Why do two different people, yeah, see even this example?

SPEAKER_00 4:25

Yeah, I think it's a combination of a few things. Um one, just different personalities. Um, two, just different experiences, different, whether it be upbringings, education, um, awareness, self-awareness, like those different types of things. Um, and also just personal choices. Um, you know, all of those things shape the outlook and how we approach uh whether it be a subject, a problem, a person, or or whatever. And I think that there's just natural tensions there, right? Um if I'm if I have a certain personality that might be way more assertive, way more uh outgoing, way more um convincing, or or whatever, and I'm in a space with somebody who might be a little bit more reserved, a little bit like that might already cause some power dynamics amongst us. So you have that, then you have you know a whole nother, you know, ideology and the experiences and the things that have shaped uh a person's personality along the way. And then you add in like their own personal choices around the way.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

All those things, you know, uh contribute to the the output for yeah, and just thinking about that, because both of us have been in ministry, identify uh strongly as Christian, followers of Jesus, and and of course, uh and not to belabor this, but the Pope obviously uh has that role and and and uh through his whole life has that influence, and even is conveying that influence today. I mean, whether it's Trump or other people uh coming as Christians, seeing it another way. But yeah, uh what do you think that whole Christian thing where it even seems there Christians can be can be very uh differ even to the point of being antagonistic or some Christians even uh hateful around seeing what it means to follow Jesus very differently.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah, that's interesting. So uh it's like how deep you want to go. Hey. Well, so it was interesting. I was just I was playing around on Chat GBT, my friend, and uh we were I was I was trying to articulate what I've been trying to talk about a lot, and that is the evolution of Christianity from what we see in the book of Acts to what we experience now, and you know, there is a timeline in which the early you know founders of our faith or the founders of of the church um lived in a way that didn't have a lot of imperial power, yeah. Right, and alongside uh along that timeline, as that movement starts to touch those places of of uh the empire, um, it does start to evolve a little bit, and a lot of those Christian perspectives start to take on political, you know, ideation and and political um sides to where a lot of those ideas uh start to drive things that are not Christian at all. And I think we find ourselves way on the other side of that timeline in uh basically a almost like a mixed bag of all of those influences, um, with a desire, I think, a genuine desire to get back to um the faith that we all profess and we all read about, but I think heavily influenced by a lot of the imperial um you know uh evolution of of what the faith has become. And so it's you know, Frederick Douglass says it uh in his in his uh book, but he says that there's two Christianities, right? And I think I think that that's the what we find ourselves in uh even in at least in our current country, is there's this sense of two different ideologies when we talk about Christianity and one has to ask the question like is are are they both Christian, or can we both can we make the claim that either one is Christianity at all? Um and so that makes it very, very hard for the average person who finds themselves born into or at least born and exposed to this mixed bag of of of all of that and trying to discern what is good, what is bad, what is uh what is nationalism, what is Christianity, what is for the country, against Christ, what is for Christ and against the country, what like all those different things start to kind of play out uh I think in the in the practicals of our everyday life and our everyday culture and and all those things.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

So yeah, so uh uh you know, again, being in a pastoral role and counseling and also uh leading a community organization, when people talk to you and say, Hey, give me some simple uh understanding. I'm really trying to take following Jesus seriously. Maybe I've just recently come to a a deeper sense of his presence in my life. I'm starting to read scripture. Uh can you give me some guidelines of how to take that and and let that help me sort out all this?

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Yeah, I think we talk we talked about it a little bit in our last podcast, but you I what I always typically say is identify what those crucial things are that you know you need to abstain from, right? And I I take this from the you know, uh basically the result of the the the council in in the book of Acts, where they basically give these three main instructions and say like you follow, you know, don't be sexually immoral, don't eat food, sacrifice to idols, and stay away from idol worship, right? Um essentially that's what I'm I I would usually give people the advice of like, hey, like stay away from these things, keep reading your Bible, um, but lean into that sense of of good that you're feeling that you're you're called in that you're called in to do. Like because really I think when we start talking about discipleship, because that's what we're really getting to, is like if we're making disciples, it is at the heart of it, it is trying to help an individual cultivate their ear, their inner ear to be able to hear what it is that the Holy Spirit and God is calling them to. And that is transformation, it's sanctification, it's all those different type of things. But if you don't handle it in a way that the person has capacity for, you will overwhelm them, and oftentimes they, you know, retract, go backwards, whatever. And so I think I'm very intentional to answer your question. I'm very intentional about trying to identify where they are and like what it is that they're sensing um that they should do next, and affirming whatever that thing is that's good as opposed to my own projections onto what I feel like they should be doing or what I think that they should do, um, so that whatever that conviction that comes out of that comes from inside of them and me. Because if it comes from them, they're more likely to sustain that than if it comes from me and I'm just giving them another rule to follow.

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, and I know that powerful example when, like a lot of folks know, that uh for a number of years I was involved as a founder of an organization called Heart to Heart Communications, and we were really trying to help integrate people's core values with what they did and how and why they did it. And I just want to use two quick examples, even locally, that any of us can identify with. So, one, a number of years ago uh in the community took on a leadership position in organization and and stressed as the leader uh the importance of servant leadership. You know, mentioning that the leader, and and he had that, he didn't just talk it, again, he lived it. People saw it in him, that part of that power of leadership, of example, of really having attitude of serving others, not kowtowing to them, but but really, okay, how that how how is a leader to help others be their best, recognize their gifts? How can an organization, maybe a department, how can they best be there with and for each other and and better know each other and what they can do individually and together, but from an attitude of service. And he did that for him, coming from you know, Jesus often calling about those who lead are called to serve the others. And and you saw that in him and eventually retired, but so many people said, Oh, that was so good because he didn't put himself above us. He didn't have this kind of ego that uh if if he brought something to you uh uh and he he might put you out. What are you bringing that for? Uh aren't I doing a good enough job? And I and I mentioned that, and then I mentioned one other example in the area a number of years ago. Somebody else coming from a uh a Christian point of view uh and and coming into this organization uh as a leader, succeeding another leader. At the same time, some of the folks in the community uh were concerned, had some suggestions for him because he was new to the area. And I know even when I talked to him, sometimes that he resented that. Don't they see I'm an effective leader? And I can remember even talking to him myself, uh, that that self-awareness is so key because he felt I'm doing a good job, I'm I'm motivated by my values, and I'm making stuff happen. But in the meantime, that that that not seeing how other people were receiving that. And for him early on, and eventually he came to realize this as he left this position, but early on he was saying, Well, they just don't realize who I am and what I do and what I bring here. After a period of time, because so many people were trying to give him feedback, he came to that self-awareness. He said, Wow, he said, I didn't get that. And he said, I've thought myself a good leader, but he'd never been in this position where maybe he had to look a little deeper. What am I all about? What am I doing? How am I treating people? How am I responding? Am I too caught up in? We'd say that, am I too caught up in ego? Which all of us can do. I mean, I've done that too as a pastor, you know. Wow, uh being able to name that and then respond accordingly.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

Yeah, no, I think in both of those stories, the thing that sticks out to me is for me, that's the definition of humility, right? Humility is not to make myself lower than I actually am or to puff myself up more than I actually am, but to know and be aware of where I authentically am and embrace that, right? Um one of my favorite scriptures about that is Philippians chapter 2, where's you know, paraphrasing says, you know, Paul says, take Christ, who is the perfect illustration of humility, and the fact that he very he is God and and he carries the very essence of God, but did not equate a quality with God, something to be grasped, but he rather emptied himself. In the Amplified Version, it says that he had no fear of losing anything. And so I think that sense of security, and you know, when we talk about serving folks, I think it is important to serve folks, but I think too oftentimes when people hear, especially Christians hear, serving folks, they think about serving folks at their own expense. Um, as opposed to serving folks out of who they truly are. Right? Um, and it's it's not to say that you shouldn't serve anybody if you don't feel good about it, but there is a sense to where, you know, God has wired you and he's wired me in different ways, and the way he's wired me allows me to serve people the way that I'm designed to serve people, and the way he's wired you is sure designed you to serve people the way that you serve people, and so there is a sense of humility that we should we should carry in that. Um and if we don't, it can lead into some things that like are unhealthy for us and for the people that we're actually trying to serve. Um there's a book uh called The Three Passions of the Soul, it's one of my favorite books. And he talks about, you know, regardless of what we believe, what religion you ascribe to, whatever, at the soul level, we all want three things. We all want a sense of of being able to be completely ourselves and authentic and naked almost and accepted. We want to be naked and know that our lives are significant, and we want to be ourselves and know that we're safe. Right? And those things, I think how those things tie us, tie you know, us back to God is that God is love and love is the unconditional giving of acceptance, unconditional giving of significance, and unconditional giving of security. But that comes or should be internal. And if it's not internal, or we don't feel like or realize that that is something internally and it comes from internal, we make peace with the internal sense of acceptance, significance, and security, we will look outside of it. And you know, for some people that's social media, for some people that's ministry, yeah, right? Uh that we I mean, I know tons of pastors who have tied their identity into what it is the the ministries that they were able to achieve, or the tenure of time that they've been able to serve, or or or all those different types of things. Um, but if that's not coming out of a sense of humility and authenticity of who you are, um you can run the risk of of investing a lot of your identity into something that is external, that when when or if those things are ever taken away, you know, folks might be in an identity crisis because they've they've identified themselves with what they do as opposed to.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

Yeah. Yeah, for example, for me, when I think back to that first person as servant leader, you could see that i he had an in-depth core sense of himself, uh as God calling him and influencing him and what he did and how he responded to people. So that I I getting to know him when people criticized or people brought up ideas or people were upset about something, he could listen to that. And part of the reason he said, he said, part of what you're saying is because he said, My identity isn't in, first of all, what do they think of me, how do they respond to me, that I come across knowing everything and being the perfect leader. I'm not, but how do I find a sense of Lord? Well, I got to keep coming back almost prayerfully conscious to you at the center, so that I'm in the midst of this intense discussion or argument or somebody at me that instead of just reacting to that, that I can self-aware meditation, prayer, whatever you want to call it, inwardly come to that center where the security is there, even if other people look down on me or or wish I were different, or or or just was in a complicated case that I don't even know how to deal with this situation. But Lord, if I'm centered in you, what however I do it, I don't have to get all worried that oh my whole sense of self is going to be lost because I haven't taken the right direction for most people.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Yeah, I think that self-awareness piece is huge. Um because it is at the core of it, if if you're if you can be self-aware and you can understand and to know yourself the strengths and maybe the weaknesses or the strengths and the overdone strengths of your personality, of your of how you're wired and all those different type of things, then it gives you the option to be intentional. When you are not self-aware, you just respond and you respond to whatever you feel, right? Um and feelings are real, but they aren't true all the time, right? Feelings are just uh Um internal information. Right. Uh and so we need to be honest and be able to have self-awareness to say maybe I feel this way or maybe I feel like responding this way. But before I just respond, let me actually be intentional with the information that my body's telling me, but also the information that might be, that I might be missing or or whatever, and then like let me make a decision based off of those things. So yeah, that self-awareness piece I think is is the hugest. I think self-awareness for me, self-awareness and insecurity are the two two biggest things in leadership on whether a a leader will be successful or not. Having that sense of security, having a sense of humility and being coachable and teachable, like that, that goes a long way.

SPEAKER_01 22:53

It's interesting. I started thinking a little bit about the going back to the scriptures in the New Testament, Peter, you know, Peter the apostle who took on an early leadership role. But as Jesus was forming him, one time, you know, when they see Jesus walking across the water, and Peter, oh, it's I, Peter gets out of the boat, he's all excited, I'm gonna walk toward you. Then all of a sudden he looks down, notices the waves, and and it Jesus had to rescue him because he he lost his focus on that and on, oh, what's gonna happen to me here? And then uh another time, obviously a lot of people who come out of the Christian faith know that even at the Last Supper, Jesus, or excuse me, Peter saying, Hey, I'll be with you there no matter what. And then the Lord's saying to him, Hey, I understand three times you're gonna deny me. Whoa, not me, Lord, I would never do that. And then he did. And then we know uh after that he was so guilt-ridden and weeping and so forth, uh, and wasn't even at the cross. And when Jesus came in his risen glory, uh, I'm sure Peter thought, Oh, he's gonna chew me out, he's gonna put me down, he's gonna say you're worthless, and he says, Peace to you, Peter, and even later he says, Feed my lambs, take care of my sheep, you can do this. And the reason that's meant so much to me is because I think even when I first became a pastor, I thought I'm gonna screw this up sometimes. And almost like got into a little bit of perfectionism. After all, I'm supposed to image Jesus, and if I don't get it perfectly, or if I miss something, or I don't talk lovingly to this person, or I missed something I should have done, you know, I'm gonna get all upset. And again, self-awareness, yeah, there can be a concern. What's also freeing for me, I know, was hey, you're not gonna be perfect. Only Jesus is the perfect one that lets you be okay. Not as an excuse for what you do, but also not this feeling of inadequacy that even in leadership can come. Oh, and I've had moments like you hide your imper, oh, I don't want them to see this, and yet that may mess things up more as an example uh to be able, like I've said, even in hey, you know what? Yeah, I'm far from perfect. You're right. Thank you for some of those concerns, and I ultimately look to Jesus because he's the only one, and it frees me and you up from thinking we gotta be the perfect one.

SPEAKER_00 25:13

And honestly, I think people more people need a safe place to fail than they need a space to be perfect. And I think a lot of times we can offer people a space to be perfect, or we we give them a silent expectation that they're supposed to be perfect, and people feel that pressure and they you know waver or they do whatever, but I think people need a safe place to fail. I've I've connected way more with people on the account of my weaknesses than I have uh the my strengths, and even even I'm I'm very intentional and very uh aware of sometimes even when I get praises from other people that I'm conscious of like myself to make sure that I don't not necessarily not not believe them, but like I don't give myself away to thinking that I'm more than I am because I know me even if they don't, like I see me even if they don't. And having a safe place to fail, having friends that I can go to when I fail, um, you know, that whole thing about confessing your sins to one another. Oh yeah, it's very, very hard to do that with people you don't trust. It's very, very hard to do that with people that don't love you or that you don't feel like are the best, you know, have your best interests at heart. And so for me, I always try to be that person for other people that they know hopefully I'm a safe place to fail. That if you ever are struggling or whatever, like I want to be the person that you call when you want to, you know, talk it out. And doesn't mean I'm gonna affirm your decisions, doesn't mean I even believe in what it is that you're doing. Um but I want you to feel like I'm gonna say something that's gonna be in your best interest, and you know that not only because of my instruction, but because of the relationship that we built on the front end of that.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

I may have shared this before in a previous uh session, but uh I know for me some of the compliments I get, uh oh Father Norm, you're a great preacher, oh Father Norm, you're so warm and caring toward people, you know, and even then I may make the little comparison. How come your your classmates aren't quite like that? So that could build me up. But and maybe it did initially, but even I'm so grateful for this because I I self-aware, I really believe this and and I convey it, not just as some nice slogan, that anything like that is grace. You know, a lot of the things, the fact that I'm a good communicator, that I have a warmth and a caring with people, yes, you have to hone in, but it is grace. So that helps me because I can have moments where I get puffed up and I realize, hey Lord, no, it's you. I need to let you work through me, but it's you working through me. This is not building up my ego. Oh, look, I'm the greatest priest in North North Akron or North Hill or or Akron area. So nope, you have gifts, other people have other gifts. Uh so it puts me in our place not to put me down and say, oh, I'm not that talented, but also not to puff me up, oh look who I am.

SPEAKER_00 28:23

Yeah. Yeah, I always say, like, I try to hold everything with open hands. And so, like, if you get the illustration of like if if I have open hands and God gives me a gift or gives me the gifts that I have, whether it's great communicating, whether it's whatever those things are, he puts it in my hands. Like, from the outside, people just think I possess it. Yeah. From the inside, I always know that like I hold those things because of grace. Oh, yeah. And that anytime God can take those opportunities away, God can take my speech away, God could take all those different types of things away. And I that means that if I can't put my identity into my gifts, because if those things are taken away, then what am I left with? So I have to figure out who I am apart from my gifts, and to understand that those gifts are given by grace, and that that grace might change, that like that wiring might change, that my desires might change, that you know, my perspectives might change. Um and so having that sense of value, internal value, and and and love for God, love for myself, and love for other people is crucial in how you navigate leadership.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

I know we've got to end here. Just want to make one quick illustration of that. You know, I may have mentioned here, you obviously know it. People tease me about it. I'm 79, which people keep reminding, you're in your 80th year. And one of the things I had to deal with, you may have to someday too, 50 years from now, of course, you know, that um I don't have the sense I I I've always been, people, oh man, Father Norm, you have such high energy, you do so much, this is all good. Well, my energy isn't quite as high. And and and and part of that I realize that as I'm changing and and aging hopefully gracefully, that you know what, maybe I'm too attached to that. Letting that go, I'm not always gonna have that. And that's okay. And the Lord's gonna use me with this energy level or these gifts. And instead of looking at certain things where I got complimented and it's not happening anymore, uh, oh, I can have that moment. Ego can say, Oh gosh, I used to be able to do all this, and then the Lord breaking through eventually and saying, wait a second, uh, right now the greatest thing you can do is show how what it means to be you in an aging way, still being faithful and loving and knowing your security and identity isn't found in how active you are and how you're all over the community, but in in in who you are in the Lord and who other people are. So, hey, thanks. I know we gotta end. You want to make any closing comment?

SPEAKER_00 31:00

No, I the what I'm getting is I remember this real quick story. Um there was a a younger, when I was growing up, there was a kid who was born, um, one of my um my grandmother's friend's grandchild, and he was born, I believe, without a brain stem in his brain. And so he was non-verbal. And they said that he was only gonna live like six months or a year or something like that. And he ended up living all the way up until 13, but he never spoke a word or anything. And they had his funeral service, and his funeral was packed. There were so many different people, and so here's a person who never spoke a word, um, you know, never had the ability to actually do anything for anybody, but had that big of an impact on everybody. And so, like, you know, just because like get I say that to say, you know, the gifts that we typically think of are not always the gifts that God uses to impact people. And so uh, regardless of who we are, regardless of our abilities, regardless of what culture and society highlights or what gifts culture and society highlights, like God has put something in us all that He wants to use.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

And so Well, hey, thank you. One word I'm thinking of a word, vulnerable, where a leader can be vulnerable in that way. And and when that's true for me, I'm freed up, and that is a better influence on others.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Yeah. Another word for vulnerability is honesty.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:25

To be honest, and I think that goes a long way.

SPEAKER_01 32:27

Well, you know what? Honestly, I like connecting with you.

SPEAKER_00 32:31

I didn't even have to lie about it. Oh, okay. I was just making sure. Hey, thank you. Yeah, no, I appreciate you. Thanks for being with us again. Yes. Until next time.